17/06/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. That long-running West End show the Leveson Inquiry

into bad journalists and supine politicians is nearing its

conclusion. Plenty of memorable moments, but one of the most moving

comments came this week from Gordon Brown, quoting the poet Shelley,

who said of a relative, "He had lost the art of communication but

not, alas, the gift of speech." "And I felt by the end I'd got into

the same position," said the former PM. In public life, he's not alone.

And joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, two

writers who retain I trust both the power of speech and the art of

communication. They are the well- travelled John McCarthy and Sarah

Baxter, editor of the Sunday Times Magazine. It's just over a century

since Alfred Nobel pledged part of his vast fortune, made from selling

explosives, to an annual peace prize. But there's never been a 20-

year gap between the prize being awarded and and the recipient

receiving the honour - until now. In Oslo yesterday, Aung San Suu Kyi

said that the Nobel peace prize had kept her going through the dark

years as a political prisoner. It proved she was not suffering alone

"in an indifferent universe". This trip is the first time she's left

South-East Asia in quarter of a century, and, in her first

broadcast interview, she's been talking to old friend Fergal Keane

of the BBC about coming to Britain, and about the future of Burma. Big

business is keen to invest, but is the transition to democracy

Greece votes again today, and the outcome will either see more

agonising austerity or, many believe, the fast route to leaving

the euro, with consequences across Europe, including here. I've been

speaking to the former Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou, who

says that exiting the Euro would be And Peter Mandelson is with us to

talk about the future of the euro, our place in Europe and domestic

politics, too. Bags of interesting stuff, I hope. Let's start with the

Good morning. Greeks go to the polls today in a vote which could

result in the country leaving the euro. Elections last month failed

to produce a government. International leaders are nervously

watching today's ballot. They fear that if voters elect an anti-

austerity government, Greece could be pushed out of the single

currency, which could destabilise the eurozone. They have done the

handshakes, the pleasantries, the selling of the party message. It

has been a short, sharp campaign, and now it is up to the Greek

people to decide which politician they want to lead them through the

worst financial crisis in their modern history. The two front

runners are from opposite sides. Antonis Samaras wants to pursue the

cost cutting, and keep the bail-out. But Alexis Tsipras is a tough

challenger. He wants to scrap the bail-out and put a stop to the cuts.

Brussels said that could lead Greece into bankruptcy and out of

the euro. And so there has been an unprecedented intervention by EU

leaders, who fear that a quick exit from the eurozone could set off a

chain reaction. TRANSLATION: It is so important

that the Greek elections lead to a result in which the new leadership

will say, yes, we will stick to the agreements. That is the basis on

which Europe will prosper. But this is a society suffering from the

cuts. A third of Greeks are now thought to live below the poverty

line. Unemployment is at record highs. A small country, with the

tiny European economy, and yet a vote with huge implications for the

survival of the eurozone. The choice facing Greece is a critical

The presidential election in Egypt is entering its final day, against

a background of increasing anger and turmoil. Turnout has been low.

The groups which overthrew President Mubarak last year say

they are uninspired by the choice of candidates. The run-off is

between the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammed Morsi, and

the former prime minister Ahmed A British soldier killed in

Afghanistan on Friday has been named by the Ministry of Defence.

Corporal Alex Guy, who was 37, was from the 1st Battalion the Royal

Anglian Regiment. He was killed in Helmand Province while leading his

section, who were helping a group of Afghan soldiers facing an ambush.

419 British troops have died in The International Olympic Committee

has launched an investigation into allegations that officials from

more than 50 countries have broken rules over the sale of tickets for

the 2012 Games. The Sunday Times claims it has evidence of thousands

of tickets being sold on the black market, with some being offered at

prices up to ten times their market The British rock band Radiohead has

cancelled a concert in Canada after the stage collapsed, killing one

person and seriously injuring another. The incident happened

about an hour before the gates were due to open for the sell-out gig in

From the sky, the scale of the accident can be seen. Part of the

stage has collapsed, killing one person and injuring three others.

All were stage crew. They were setting up, when the top portion of

the stage collapsed on top of them. The remainder of the people, when

they heard the stage coming down, ran from the area. It happened just

over an hour before the gates were due to open for a large outdoor

concert. Some 40,000 fans had been expected. The band are

internationally recognised as one of the best in the world. Soon

after the accident, they tweeted that the concert had been cancelled

due to unforeseen circumstances. Those unforeseen circumstances have

cost the life, but some will be grateful that more were not killed.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back just before ten o'clock with

Moving on to the front pages now. On the front of the observer, Aung

San Suu Kyi, having received her Nobel Prize. There is the

Independent, with Aung San Suu Kyi also. The Sun has the story about

the wicked Swede who was watching the wicked Swede who was watching

England prepare for their match. The Mail on Sunday has a story

about Leveson fretting to quit over something Michael Gove apparently

said about his inquiry. More on that later. The Sunday Times and

the Sunday Telegraph have strong lead stories of their own. This

story is about large numbers of people apparently prepared to sell

lots of black market tickets at hugely inflated prices, for the

Olympics. And the Sunday Telegraph says that the go-ahead is about to

be given for new nuclear weapons, and all of the political

ramifications, which we will discuss later as well. Thank you

discuss later as well. Thank you both for coming in - where are we

going to start? I would like to start with this story about Aung

San Suu Kyi. The Independent on Sunday has the story about what she

actually said when she was picking up her prize. I think it is very

moving that she speaks about the fact of having been held under

house arrest, and the fact that being given this award had made her

feel that she was reconnected with the world, and had inspired her to

continue the fight. It was a beautifully written speech. Yes,

and also, it is so personal. It talks about us as ordinary human

beings. The idea that one of the most important things is human

kindness, which is really rather touching. She also says that you

die a little when you're forgotten. Actually, I had never heard of her

21 years ago, but I heard of her then, and ever since, I have paid

attention to her case, and that of Burma. She is really a very

deserving recipient. Now, you have picked from your own paper, the

Sunday Times, this is the black market story. It looks like a

really good piece of old-fashioned investigative journalism. I think

it is, and I am very proud of it. But I also have to say, sadly, it

does not surprise me very much. Does it surprise you? No.

Serbians have been at it, the Chinese... The thing that makes me

laugh, the Greek head of the Olympic Committee managed to

persuade Seb Coe that there was massive demand in Greece, when in

fact, surprisingly, there has hardly been any from that country!

They are taking it seriously now, I don't think they were policing it

very effectively before. John, I mentioned the story about nuclear

weapons. In some ways, this is a not unexpected government

announcement, but it has big political implications. Yes, it is

the announcement of a new multi- billion-pound programme to renew

the nuclear weapons. The political issue I think is beyond the debate

on nuclear weapons, it is the fact that they are going ahead with

replacing Trident. This is one of the issues which the Lib Dems said

they would not tolerate in their manifesto. It seems like another

rift within the coalition. Nick Clegg has said to his MPs, do not

support this, it is another of those issues. If you go through

today's papers, there are lots of issues where you can see the

Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats absolutely at loggerheads.

This is one of them. Another one would-be Jeremy Hunt not being

supported in the House of Commons. I think there have been warnings

from the Conservatives to the Lib Dems saying, we are going to

scupper your house of Lords reform. It all started with student fees,

if you remember, but that was relatively amicable, compared to

what is going on now behind the scenes. The Leveson Inquiry has

opened up a can of worms, with regard to Jeremy Hunt. I actually

brought up as well the Leveson brought up as well the Leveson

story in the Mail on Sunday. The inquiry seems to be straying into

all sorts of areas which people never quite imagined a! And now, I

gather that Lord Justice Leveson, according to the Mail on Sunday,

whether he threatened to quit or not is in some doubt, but he

certainly gave an angry phone call over Michael Gove's alleged

meddling, by daring to have a speech where he suggested that the

Leveson Inquiry might be having a bit of a chilling effect on one

particular debate. My own feeling is that here was a minister who was

standing up for the freedom of the press at a time when the press

itself was finding it quite hard to defend itself in front of Leveson,

not just because of embarrassment over some obvious wrongdoing, some

of which is actually illegal, like phone hacking, but it is on the

back foot very much because it is afraid of what Lord Justice Leveson

will recommend, in terms of possibly punitive statutory

legislation, so Michael Gove is speaking up for the press. The Mail

on Sunday helpfully reprints Michael Gove's original speech. It

seems to me he is also having a go at the Law of intended -- the law

of unintended consequences. You set up the criminal records bureau, for

example, and then the pro-life group to more and more. It seems to

be a general truth. Yes, I think he said something very benign,

basically, to make sure the cure is not worse than the disease, but it

seems to have caused the front to Lord Leveson. We have got the

memoirs out at the moment, Alastair Campbell's memoirs, speaking about

Murdoch apparently speaking to the Prime Minister of the time. I am

not saying that Murdoch was definitely demanding this, he now

says. But there is an interesting piece in the Observer about

Alastair Campbell tweeting about this acceptance of the honour from

Iannucci. Alastair Campbell mocks him for this. I think even Alastair

Campbell admitted that was a good report -- a good retort. Twitter

has become a good place for little spats like that. What is your next

John Cruddas is interviewed for the first time in the Observer. Oh yes.

The tone of the interview shows how confident and bullish the Labour

Party is getting. I mean, the economic head winds against

incumbent Government are so strong. We have talked about the coalition

tensions. I think here Cruddas is setting out quite a left-wing

agenda, very pro-public sector. They even talk about putting union

members on boards of companies. He is going fob a populist mesh -- for

a populist measure. This is a sign that Labour is getting its

confidence back. They think they can win. This is a chance to have a

simple, straightforward - it is a left-wing message - but it is

something that he thinks the public will be able to buy because,

instead of being 27 policy reviews into this, that and the other, it

has a few clear... He is not a well-known national figure. But

he's becoming a very important politician, I think? It is also

interesting he has been out in the cold a bit with the Labour Party.

He has come back in. He didn't vote for Ed Miliband during the

leadership campaign. It does suggest that he has a much fresher

view. Yes. They are trying to find a way forward that will be populist.

We have gone through a lot of the big issues. I would like to talk

about Syria. The possibility of full-scale all-out civil war is

occupying a lot of the leader writers in a lot of the papers,

John? The UN yesterday said it stopped its mission in terms of

trying to keep an eye on what is going on because it is too

dangerous. They are saying Syria is in civil war now. When we look and

think that some of the rebels are being sponsored by Qatar, Saudi

Arabia, the Russians are refusing any intervention against the Assad

regime. This week, we have had the Americans asking the British to

stop a ship that may be carrying refurbished Russian or Soviet -

sorry, Russian helicopters being shipped back to Syria. There's a

lot of power play going on. 10,000 people have died and it seems to be

getting worse. This is your area after your terrible ordeal way back

when. You have kept a close interest in that part of the world.

You have been back talking to Palestinians inside Israel? That's

right, yes, I have written a book right, yes, I have written a book

about Palestinians in Israel. We are talking about - we have been

looking at a lot of the Arab Spring and the hope for more democracy.

Israel has seen itself as a democracy. I wanted to explore that

through the eyes of ordinary people, the Palestinian people, the Arabs

who stayed in the state after 1948. Yes. And I think that it has shared

a very different light on that idea of it being this wonderful...

don't come away thinking the peace process has a new lease of life?

I don't think so. At the moment, particularly with the situation in

the West Bank and Gaza, but also with the right-wing Israeli

government, that is in a stalemate. It is, of course, Fathers Day,

Sarah? It is. There's lots of interesting pieces. I think - I was

going to mention the Josie Russell story? Yes. This was the girl whose

mother and sister were killed in that ghastly hammer attack. She was

attacked with a hammer herself. She still wears a hat. She is a

beautiful girl. Her father, Shaun, brought her up and really provided

the love and constant support that she... She has written a special

letter to him. Yes. She says, "He's made me happy. I can't thank him

enough." A lot of us feel that way about our dads. Thank you, fathers.

We have got two old dads here. Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney who

are 70, they are looking back on their careers. The headline is

"Battle of the Champions". We probably agree The Beatles are...

Paul gets my vote. And mine, too! There's one great picture - I don't

know if we can find it? I've got it. I hope we can pick it out there.

You need to watch... You need the You need to watch... You need the

terrifying scale. This man walked over Niagara Falls. You can be

boiling in the car park and if you go to the edge of those falls, the

gusts and the wind - it is blowing spray in your face. It is also very

windy. He's on a small, slippery rope? He was forced to wear a

harness. He didn't want to. I'm amazed with those hundred miles an

hour winds, that he could make it across. How anybody could do it, it

makes me feel queasy. I think that is a bigger challenge - the Grand

Canyon. Thank you very much. Talking of wet, the wettest April,

I think, ever has oozed and dripped its way into a chilly and splashy

June which could also make records. What is next? Sarah Keith-Lucas can

tell us. I can promise you some improvement

in the weather. It has been very wet for the first couple of weeks

of June. Today, we are looking at some sunny spells. The low pressure

that has been in charge shifts away towards the north and the east. The

isobars ease out as well. So, certainly a less windy day. Spells

of sunshine for most of us. It won't be dry all day. There will be

some showers here and there. More persistent rain affecting eastern

parts of Scotland and some of that rain into the North East of England.

Sunshine and scattered showers further south. The showers fairly

few and far between. Not as heavy as the last few days. The far South

East is likely to stay dry for much of the day. One or two lighter

showers this afternoon. Sunshine along the southern coasts. More in

the way of showers across northern parts of Somerset, Devon and

Cornwall. As we head up towards Wales, we are looking at some

decent spells of sunshine. One or two showers interrupting that

sunshine at times. All in all, it is a decent day. Less windy for

Northern Ireland than recent days and less wet, too. As we look ahead

to Monday, some wet weather in the south and east. For most places, it

is looking drier and brighter. The settled theme to the weather

continues into the middle of the week.

That is not too bad. Like Nelson Mandela, who has been a huge

inspiration to her, Aung San Suu Kyi has become an international

symbol of peaceful resistance to oppression, the Burmese democracy

leader was imprisoned after a military coup in 1988 and spent the

best part of 20 years in detention or under house arrest. Burma's been

undergoing something of a transformation. Now, in her late

60s, Aung San Suu Kyi has a seat in Parliament and is free to travel

outside the country knowing she will be allowed back in again to

will be allowed back in again to continue her campaign for further

reform. For the woman who was once the

world's most famous political prisoner, making her Nobel

acceptance speech in Oslo yesterday - two decades after she was awarded

the Peace Prize - must have been a sweet moment indeed. Now she is

feted wherever she goes, but for years she was mainly hidden from

the world. The BBC's Fergal Keane has followed every twist of Aung

San Suu Kyi's extraordinary story. He interviewed her back in 1995, at

her home in Rangoon, when she was released from her first stretch of

house arrest. Despite the actions of the Burmese authorities, she

never lost her faith in the simple idea of freedom. They have not been

able to do anything to what really matters. She faced many more tests.

There were further periods of house arrest and solitary confinement.

And she was unable to visit her dying husband in Britain, or see

her two sons, for fear she would never be allowed to return to her

homeland. Earlier this year, Fergal and Aung San Suu Kyi met again in

the same house, which had also been her prison. This time she was

finally free after the government started its programme of political

reform. Her party - the National League for Democracy - contested

elections, and now she sits in Parliament as leader of the

Opposition. It's been hailed as a new era for Burma, but, after all

she's experienced, Aung San Suu Kyi is cautious, saying her country

still has a long, long way to go. It's particularly significant for

her because this used to be her home. Just before she gave her

Nobel acceptance speech, Fergal Keane caught up with her again for

an exclusive interview, her first with a British journalist on this

historic trip to Europe. He asked her how she felt being outside

Burma after her long incarceration and the centre of attention. Well,

a very frivolous thought has come into my head. What I find most

striking about the world outside is there are so many light switches

and bathroom fittings. That is terribly confusing for me. The

warmth of the people of the countries I have visited, this has

meant most to me. Next week, you go to Britain, which was such a huge

part of your life as a young woman. I'm wondering what you feel about

going? I'm looking forward to it, very simply. I want to see old

friends again. And to rediscover all the places where I have been

happy. Is it tinged with sadness as well? I hope not. I hope it will

not be tinged with sadness. When you look back on the years you have

spent under house arrest, cut off from everybody, really, do you ever

regret the decision you made to stay in Burma? No, I've never

regretted it. I think the decision that not just I alone but my

colleagues made to continue with our struggle is beginning to pay

off. Even with all the pain it's involved for you personally?

just for me, for others as well, and perhaps more for others than

for me. On engagement with Burma, a lot of British companies are now

looking to invest. Can they do it with a clean conscience? It depends

on the way in which they do it. I spoke at the ILO of the need for

democracy-friendly development growth to invest in a way that

would promote democracy in Burma, that would empower the people, that

would bring in new players into the economic arena, not just the same

old people who have been enjoying a privileged situation for years.

practical terms, if you were a major British company wanting to go

into the energy sector - Burma has huge reserves of oil and gas - what

do you do? Who do you get advice from? I do talk about that, that

those who wanted to invest in these industries should make sure the

state-owned company signs up. Transparency is the key. Without

transparency, there can be no accountability. Unless there is

transparency, we can never tell whether these investments are going

to benefit the people or to just the already privileged few. If you

are Shell or BP, stay away from joint ventures with the national

oil and gas company? No, they should just tell the national

company to adhere to the IMF code and they will also adhere to that

code. You are happy to see British investment in Burma? I would be

happy to see ethical, responsible investment. I wonder if you feel at

all that too many people regarded it as a done deal, when the most

difficult negotiations with the government lie ahead, nothing is

settled? Absolutely. This is why I have been speaking out against what

I call reckless optimism and calling for a bit of healthy...

think there is reckless optimism? Yes. There is. I called for healthy

scepticism which I must say was translated in the state newspapers

as "promoting the good health of negativity" - that is a lot of

nonsense. We do need a bit of healthy scepticism in the sense

that we need to be aware of the many challenges that still lie

ahead. On that, you have seen in the past week terrible ethnic

violence, 35,000 people displayed and the president has warned that

this could derail the transition, do you share his fears? We all

share in such fears in the sense that we are concerned that things

should not get worse and worse. I would also like to point out if

there had been rule of law in our country, these communal

disturbances would not have come to such large proportions. What do you

mean by that? Because the very first time a crime was committed,

which had, which was going to have communal consequences, they should

have taken action. If they had been able to do that, and satisfy all

parties involved, that justice was being done, if justice could have

seen to be done, I do not think these disturbances would have grown

to such proportions. One of the other concerns that's been raised

recently, is the huge focus on you distracts from the really sensitive

question of negotiations. You saw for example the president, your

partner, pulling out of an event in Thailand because he feared being

This is a question you have to put to him. He did not actually say

that that was the reason. You have to ask him. But do you worry around

-- about the kind of superstardom which surrounds you now? I do not

think of myself as a superstar, I think of myself as the recipient of

a lot of kindness and warmth, for which I am grateful. Nothing has

been negotiated with the government - what for you is the key thing

which must be achieved in negotiations? We will have to see

what happens when we really start working in the national Assembly,

how far we are able to go to bring about the changes which we think

are necessary to make sure that 2015 will be the opening of the

doors to a truly democratic country, not just government, a country

which enjoy is the protection of democratic institutions. Right now,

you cannot stand for the presidency because you have been married to a

foreigner, is that not the case? Yes. How soon will you be able to

get that law changed? I don't know. We have said that one of the

requirements is amendments to the constitution, so we will have to

see how long it takes for us to amend the constitution. People keep

talking about 2015, but the really important years are now, before

2015. If we wait until 2015 to see what is going to happen, it will be

too late. We have got to start trying to make 2015 the kind of

year we want it to be. Some people say you and your people have been

naive, the government has been leading you up the garden path, it

has got you into Parliament as a minority, and it is going to keep

you there. No, they cannot keep us like that. We decided to run for

the by-elections because we thought that we could serve the people

better. We will of course be carrying on with our extra

parliamentary activities. But at the same time, we will be expanding

our activities to include Parliament. Do you believe that the

National League for Democracy is really ready for power? A lot of

people suggest that the National League for Democracy is

disorganised, it is hard to know who makes policy or who speaks.

is true to say that we are still in the process of reorganising. For 20

years, we were not allowed to operate as a political party at all.

Even in 2010, when we were legally registered, we were not allowed to

recruit new members. Practically all of our offices, apart from the

headquarters, were shut down, and many of our best people were

imprisoned. It is only since January that we have been allowed

to operate again as a political party. Obviously, we cannot be

completely organised overnight. you accept there is some validity

to that criticism? Oh, yes, we are working on it, we have to start

from the grassroots level. We have to start with village conferences,

then coming up to the national Conference. You clearly have a

sense of destiny about the future. I don't know what you mean by a

sense of destiny. I know what we are working towards, I know what

our goal is, and I do believe that we will get there. Not perhaps

along a straight road, and certainly it is going to be

difficult, but I do believe that we will get there. Aung San Suu Kyi,

thank you very much. Aung San Suu Kyi, who knows her mind, speaking

to Fergal Keane, in Oslo yesterday. And of course, the people of Greece

are going to the polls today, for the second time in two months. The

future of the single currency and economies across Europe, including

that of Britain, are tied up in the result. The leader of the left-wing

grouping has said that if he wins power, the bail-out deal and the

austerity programme will be history. He believes Greece can stay in the

euro on easier terms. Earlier, I asked the former Prime Minister

George Papandreou if this was possible. What they are saying

sounds good to many people that are feeling the pain of austerity, but

I think there is also a very contradictory electorate which is

voting for this party, the SYRIZA party. Yes, we have the youth, who

are unemployed and want are future, but those are the ones who want the

deeper reforms. On the other side are many who do not want reforms,

because there has taking some of the villages away. The austerity

programme is causing intense anguish, obviously, in Greece -

what do you say to those who are beginning to think that even

leaving the euro could not be as bad as what Greece is going through

now? It is still a programme which is manageable, if we stay in the

euro. This programme may need to be altered, it may need to take a

little bit more time, these things can be discussed, but staying in

the euro is keeping us stable, in order to make this a success.

Leaving the euro would be catastrophic for Greece. There

would be a bank run, there would be high inflation, because we are

still a high import country, dependent on oil, for example. We

will have deep cuts in wages, and at the same time, we will most

likely have a cut in our GDP growth of minus 20%. This will be a major

catastrophe which will have not only social but also political

consequences, which I believe will make it much more difficult for

Greece to reform. George Osborne, the British Chancellor, has

suggested that Greece's exit from the Yury might be the price Germany

requires to move in and save the situation - how do you respond to

that? It is not Greece that is the problem. If Greece was the problem,

then the solution would be very simple, kick out Greece, and

everybody would be happy. Greece represents the deeper problems of

which the eurozone is facing. These are two major problems - one of

those is the structure of the euro. We are half Federated, if you like.

We have a common currency, but we do not have banks which a unified

in any way, regarding capitalisation or monitoring or

credit guarantees. We do not have a common fiscal policy. We are now

creating a fiscal pact. We do not have a common economic policy, we

have different tax regimes, labour laws and pension systems. We do not

have a common social system, where the unemployed will be helped

through the European Union. This is left to the member states. There is

not much mobility, there is not the type of training that we need. And

there is a lack of democratic legitimacy in many of the decisions

we are making. These are problems the market sees. The market is

telling Europe, not Greece, we are not confident today in the European

structures, as they are, particularly in the eurozone.

seems to me that you're saying that either there will be a complete

collapse, total disaster, or there now has to be a full monetary and

political union in Europe. I think we are at a make-or-break point in

Europe. Greece has its problems, and we take on our own

responsibilities for our mistakes, for our past and for a bad

governance, and that is what we are trying to change. However, the

structures in Europe need to be modernised, need to be more

integrated, need to be stronger, to create the confidence in this world

economy that we can together a deal with our problems. We must leave

behind all of this nationalistic rhetoric about who is to blame,

whether it is the southerners or the austere Germans or whatever. We

need to work together, we need to pool our strengths in creating the

types of structures, such as eurobonds, financial transaction

taxes or other things, which will bring more revenue and confidence

to the markets, so that we can have a path for competitiveness and

growth. Otherwise, I can predict, with the experience of the past two

years, but we will see more splintering, more of a patchwork in

trying to deal with these issues. It was a great thing to be able to

help the Spanish banks, but in my mind it was patchwork, compared to

what is necessary - we need a bank union in Europe. If we do not move

forward, we will see more splintering, and this will create

much greater bitterness and political problems in Europe.

has also been an increase in support for the ultra-nationalist

party in Greece, Golden Dawn. You mentioned nationalism - how worried

are you know that this is a premonition of what might happen

generally if the euro breaks up? Absolutely. I think we are facing,

because of the lack of confidence which is developing, the

frustration, if you like, which seems that Europe today is not

making those bold moves towards integration, towards solving our

common problems, it is too easy to blame one another. That has created

a ripe ground for populism, a ripe ground for racist parties and neo-

fascist parties and extreme political views which will, not

only in Greece but in other countries, tear apart the fabric,

the real values on which the European Union is based. Because

the European Union is a peace project, based on the ideal that we

go beyond our nationalisms which came out in the First World War and

the Second World War. It is based on the idea that we can bridge

these divides and work together for prosperity, democracy and human

rights, and of course deal with the wider challenges of the world, such

as being much more competitive with the emerging markets. Thank you

very much for joining us. Watching that, probably agreeing with quite

a lot of it, I suspect, was Lord Mandelson, former Cabinet minister

and European Trade Commissioner. Do you agree that this is an

absolutely crunch moment, this vote in Greece? Yes. Whatever happens in

the elections today, whoever wins, whatever government emerges, Greece

faces a very long and painful road back. But that road will be much,

much harder if Greece chooses the course of defaulting, further

bankrupting itself and dropping out of the eurozone altogether. The

social and human costs of that will be colossal - deepening recession,

mounting unemployment, probably spiralling inflation. Therefore, it

is very important indeed that the new coalition government in Greece

finds a way of staying within the eurozone and arriving at a mutually

acceptable agreement with its European partners. It suggests that

politicians not just in Greece but all around the eurozone and beyond

have rather less power perhaps then we have thought, that they have got

the power to agree the measures which the markets feel are

essential, but there is no alternative, people cannot vote, in

a sense, for the alternative to SYRIZA, because the consequences

are so awful. Well, they can do, but it is a reflection of the

strains being caused by the adjustment programme in Greece. But

also, the Greek people are absolutely fed up to the back teeth

with the political and business a lead in Greece, who, through

decades of mismanagement, have brought Greece to this situation.

In a sense, you can hardly blame them for looking for radical

alternatives. What I would say it is that the proposals of the

radical Left Party are not really radical solutions for Greece, they

would lead Greece down a terrible path, which would make what we have

seen recently in Greece look very tame indeed. What about the

argument which we hear from Berlin, that there is a case that you could

possibly push Greece out and redraw the boundaries, and the problem

would not then necessarily spread to Portugal, Ireland, Italy and

Spain, that it is containable if Greece goes? To those who are

arguing that, and the German government are not, I would say, be

careful what you wish for. Not only do you have the tremendous risk of

contagion, market panic, spreading across the more vulnerable members

of the eurozone, and a growing sense within the markets that the

euro has ceased to be a permanent currency, which would have huge

implications for us all, including in Britain... I think the German

position, as we see it, is right, to support Greece, to continue

sustaining Greece financially, so that it can implement its

adjustment programme, not unconditionally, but nonetheless,

to stand behind Greece, so that it can make the very painful changes

to its public finances which it needs, but more importantly, as

George Papandreou was saying, undertake the structural reforms

which Greece, as well as other countries in southern Europe, need

to do. And they are doing it. Ireland is doing it. I was in

Portugal this week, they are doing it. The Italians are following

Mario Monti's leadership. Spain is coming to terms with what it needs

to do. We have got to continue along this path, and that is what

I believe it could be. That, however, gives a problem for all

the democracies involved. What does it mean for the individual

democracies? After all, Europe isn't one country. Yet, if all the

decisions are being taken centrally, where does it leave the individual

democratic systems? Well, it keeps the members of the European Union

and the eurozone at its core, broadly speaking, in the same place

as a union of democracy. Nobody is seeking to turn Europe into a

single totalitarian state that is ruled from Brussels. That is never

going to happen. There are changes that need to take place for a

eurozone mark two... That could mean decisions about taxation

levels, business taxation, fiscal policy obviously, all being at the

centre. If that is removed from the national Parliament, it then

becomes a glorified County Council? Not sure it will result to that

degree in federalism. I don't accept that. What the eurozone has

to focus on now, and the heads of government need to do this at the

end of June, what sort of banking union do they need to create? That

is important. What sort of fiscal integration where we share

responsibility for each other's sovereign debt within the eurozone?

What sort of programme of structural and economic change

needs to be driven forward by the European Commission? Indeed, what

new governance the eurozone needs? What we've got to see at the end of

June is a working plan. The markets won't tolerate anything... We need

to put in place a bridge to the future of the eurozone. Otherwise,

who is going to rebuild their confidence in something which can't

itself see how it is going to be operating in ten or more years'

time. What about this country? It gives Britain a particularly

difficult choice. Outside the eurozone, that's been a comfortable

place to be in many respects recently. If there is a stronger,

tighter core and we are outside it, does that bring forward that

ultimate choice about Britain in Europe and does that mean sooner or

later there has to be a referendum again? Possibly over the next five

to ten years... Not sooner? No. The last thing we need is some sort of

in-and-out or out referendum, pledged by a Conservative Prime

Minister under pressure from the anti-European fanatics on his

backbench. As a tactical ploy for them to play against UKIP. That

would have nothing to do with the national interest. It would be to

do with coping with the pressures inside the Conservative Party.

There are plenty of people in the Labour Party who seem... I was

going to go on to say that if and when, if and when the eurozone

remakes itself, when you see a sort of gravitational pull of sort of

decision-making within the European Union coming towards the core, then

I think that a question will arise once more as to what's best

relationship Britain wants to have with the European Union. I'm

talking quite a way into the future here, the British public want to

decide that for themselves, not least because I suspect the

political parties in Britain may not be able to resolve their

differences over it. Speaking of political parties, what do you make

of what is going on in the Labour Party at the moment? There seems to

be - we have had John Cruddas talking about essentially moving to

Blue Labour, perhaps a bit more to the left. We are hearing a lot

about a drive from the trade unions to purge progress which people may

not understand. Progress is a Blairite think-tank funded by Lord

Sainsbury. Are you concerned? the last point, I am concerned. We

don't want to have a political party of intolerance, of renewed

divisiveness and falling out of the sort that we saw in the 1980s. All

of us want to put that behind us. Nor do I think it is right to view

Progress as an organisation as some sort of Blairite faction. It is not

looking to the past. It doesn't want to re-create the New Labour

model of the past. It's forward- looking, it is progressive, it is

modernising. It wants to commit to the best possible platform on which

we can fight and win the next election. Perhaps that is why the

trade unions don't like it. Ed Miliband has said he on progress. I

don't know if it is GMB or Unite that is in lead of this fight. What

is more important than their own internal democracy and their form

of relationship with the Labour Party, it is how they remake

themselves as trade unions for the 21st Century. That wasn't what I

asked. I know it's not. It is the bigger question, Andrew. I think a

lot of the problems that the Labour Party has with the trade unions...

Your answer is "yes" but "I would rather not say so"... My answer is

direct and frank. It is that the trade unions need to remake

themselves for a new century. They have to create a different

relationship with their own members. If they become more representative

of their membership as a whole, they would not be leading either

themselves or the Labour Party down what I regard as a pretty blind

alley. The Leveson Inquiry, you gave evidence there. A lot of

people would look at the evidence and say, "Well, Gordon Brown, Tony

Blair particularly and David Cameron all got too close to the

Murdoch machine at different times." I have acknowledged that.

What is the big lesson for the future? Do you see this as the

moment when there is some sort of new regulatory structure imposed on

the press? We don't have a regulatory structure now. We have a

system of so-called self-regulation which is no regulation at all. We

all know that. We have to move to something else. Look, how I would

see Leveson is in this way: David Cameron looking back over the last

week, I think he will be regretting the extent to which he lowered his

guard. But, I don't think anyone in the political class in Britain has

anything to be proud of in how they have acted towards Murdoch and

other newspaper proprietors and powers in the land. What is

important now is that rather than try to seek party political

advantage, that the political parties unite behind whatever

Leveson proposes. It is very important that we don't once again

bow to the pressures or the blandishments of the press, follow

through what he is going to propose and recommend, unite behind it and

see it through Parliament. That is very important. Of course, it must

be a system that the press themselves can have some confidence

in. Yeah. So that is what I would like to see coming out of Leveson.

We now have a political responsibility to make sure we back

him. I was talking to a very senior politician in Government the other

day and he said the terrible truth that we can't admit - it reflects

Leveson and also the euro situation - is that British politicians can

much less power than people assume they have got these days and

pretend that they have got, they have to pretend they have got more

power. Is that true? It is true to this extent. We are not masters of

economic events in our own country. We live within a global economy

which has created major forces and some imbalances and distortions

that we have seen emanating from the sea of credit that drove global

growth for so many years. The only way in which we are going to tackle

those imbalances is by acting internationally and not imagining

that our economic salvation can be created by our own country alone.

That is naive. Thank you very much. Now over to Naga for the news

headlines. People in Greece are voting in a

general election, which could decide whether the country remains

in the single currency. EU leaders have warned that if a new

government abandons the austerity programme, the entire eurozone

could be destabilised. The former Prime Minister, George Papandreou,

told this programme that leaving the euro would be "catastrophic for

Greece". He warned of the dangers if Europe failed to agree on deeper

economic and political union. too easy to blame one another. That

has created a ripe ground for populism, a ripe ground for racist

parties, a neofascist parties and extreme political views which will

not only in Greece but in other countries tear apart the fabric,

the real values on which the European Union is based. The former

European Trade Commissioner and Labour Cabinet Minister Lord

Mandelson has called on European leaders to set out plans for a

reformed eurozone within the next few weeks. He said they need to

decide soon on how to go forward considering issues such as banking

union and sharing responsibility for each other's debt.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC1 is at midday.

Back to Andrew in just a moment. But, first, a look at what's coming

up after the show. Today, legalising gay marriage will damage

the institution of marriage itself. That is the view of the Anglican

Church. Are they right or prejudiced? Should the police

target people because of their race to fight crime? Is it time the

Government blocked internet pornography? What do you think? See

you at 10.00am. Lord Mandelson is still with us. And Sarah Baxter is

here, too. You must have blanched when you heard Gordon Brown saying

he had never spun against Tony Blair this week. He said it. Just a

wry smile flickered across my face. Yes. Sarah, a lot of stuff in the

Leveson Inquiry about politicians and journalists being very close,

too close. Do you think it is true? It is a lot of nonsense. We know

each other. I worked in the lobby for many years and yes, we talked

to each other. That is a good thing. We have to exchange views. When

journalists and politicians are being very cosy, you have to

remember we are trying to get something out of the other person.

It looks cosy. It is a transaction. Would you have journalistic friends

as such? Very, very few. My view is that politicians and journalists

have to maintain a professional wariness towards each other. When

those boundaries are breached, therein lies potential trouble. It

is all very well for me to say this. I'm sure Tony Blair is only too

pleased and relieved that he never carried a mobile phone. He didn't

live in the era of texts and instant e-mails. I have had

politicians bound up to me and kiss me on the cheek as if I am some old

friend. You have to be very wary of the appearance of it. I'm just

transfixed by the idea of Blair the collective tweets.

That's all we have time for today. Thanks to all my guests. Do join me