30/09/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning up from a slightly blustery Manchester, where two

years ago, to the surprise of some people who thought they were shrewd

commentators, a certain Ed Miliband was chosen as leader of the Labour

Party. That was partly thanks to the trade unions, of course. This

morning, one of the biggest trade union leaders warns Ed Miliband

that he will be consigned to the dustbin of history if he doesn't

change course. And that was supposed to be a friend! So, this

week, in this town, can Ed Miliband that show Britain that he has got

what it takes to be our next Prime In some ways, Labour is doing

pretty well. There are no audible plots, few visible splits and a

poll rating which, if match at a general election, would see them

back in government. But there are also more ominous signs, worries

about a lack of care policies, perhaps above all on coping with

the deficit. There is union anger, and Ed Miliband's personal ratings,

which are persistently poor compared to David Cameron. He has

got a job to do that this Labour conference selling his party and

selling himself. In a little while, I will be talking to Mr Miliband.

Can he cut through the wonkish jargon and give us a clear sense of

what Labour in government would do? There is no shortage of advice for

him in the Sunday papers. Matthew Parris of the Times and Polly

Toynbee of the Guardian are here to fillet and slice their way through

them. And as we reflect on relations between Labour and the

unions, viewers of a certain age may think back to the wild and

turbulent politics of the '70s. Ed Miliband is too young to remember

that, but a new play at the National Theatre is set inside the

Commons back then, as earlier Labour politicians fight for their

political life. Its star, Philip Glenister, no stranger to the 1970s,

has been telling me about his role as a tough-talking government whip.

And we have a track from an up-and- coming singer who lives just around

the corner from here. # Don't think I don't know so much

about you, boy. Salford's own Ren Harvieu, she of

the soaring Dusty Springfield vocals, will be singing as out

later. First, over to Naga for the morning's headlines.

Should the Labour leader Ed Miliband has threatened to break up

Britain's banks if he wins power in the next election. Speaking ahead

of the Labour Party conference, he said Britain's high street banks

are not acting quickly enough with reforms designed to protect

customers' money. Do you know who Ed Miliband is?

Were in you want to be the prime minister, the first trick is

getting noticed. Ed Miliband came to his conference with a plan to do

just that. The government has said it will ring-fence the deposits of

ordinary people from the risks of investment banking. But Labour is

not convinced. They accuse ministers of caving in to pressure

from those who want the plan watered down. Labour's leader says

if high-street banks don't operate in a genuinely independent way from

investment banks, Labour would change the law to force them to

split up. It is a clear attempt to paint himself as a challenger to

banks. But everyone in politics knows that they remain far from

popular with voters. But Ed Miliband has to convince union

leaders, unhappy that he has backed public sector pay restraint.

Speaking to the Sunday Times, the leader of the Unite union said his

members were furious about that, and he pledged to kick the New

Labour cuckoos out of our nest. All of which leaves Ed Miliband with a

lot of persuading to do. Two women from Britain and

Australia who were kidnapped in Ecuador have been rescued. The

Ecuadorian authorities said the tourists were visiting a jungle

nature reserve in the Tarapoa province near the border with

Colombia. The women were put on Friday by what was thought to be a

Colombian group, but police and armed forces staff found them

yesterday. Police officers who have been

killed on duty will be remembered during a service at York Minster

this afternoon to mark National Police Memorial Day. More than 2000

people are expected to attend the event, which will include special

dedications to the two officers killed in Greater Manchester

earlier this month. A British woman is reported to be

missing in southern Spain after flash floods devastated houses and

roads. The 52-year-old is understood to have been in the

province of Almeria. At least 10 people have died during the

torrential rain in the region, and thousands of homes have been

evacuated. Many residents in this large area

of southern Spain are already clearing up. As they wade through

mud and debris, counting the cost of this freak weather, a British

woman remains missing. Across this largely poor part of Spain, the

heavy rains fell, almost 10 inches of it on Friday morning the loan.

And it kept coming, taking cars, roads and bridges with it. For a

30,000 hectares have been hit, estimates the mayor of Lord Coe,

including many houses. And this Corona describes the river of water

taking cars with it. His bar, he says, is ruined. A rescuers have

been if using any means possible to take the victims to safety. At

least 600 homes across the region had to be evacuated as the water

rose. This largely farming area has experienced a summer of misery.

Severe droughts lead to thousands of wildfires, and now the rains are

washing away their homes and livelihoods, and taking lives.

You would think that an albino humpback whale would be hard to

miss, but this amazing beast has proved elusive in the deep blue sea.

That was until he appeared off the Australian coast in the first

confirmed sighting since 2009. Known as Migaloo, which is

Aboriginal for "white fella", the rare whale showed off by breaching

an swimming right up to the watching boats as he made his way

to the chilly Antarctic waters for his annual migration.

From our been a whilst Andrew. More headlines just before 10 o'clock.

Migaloo to you, too! And so to the front pages. There is

the Observer, which had the Ed Miliband interview about the

British banks, promising that they will be broken up, with a picture

of him arriving with his children and partner in Manchester. The

papers are, of course, still fascinated by the missing

schoolgirl, now returned, and her school teacher. There is the Sunday

Express. The sum on Sunday is going with the same story. Got him, it

says. David Walliams is talking about his battle with depression.

Jack Straw was talking about the same thing last week. The

Independent on Sunday have got an interview with Rachel Reeves, a

rising star in the Labour firmament. She is in charge of public spending

and has also announced that she is pregnant, but will not call the

baby Ed. Scotland on Sunday has Labour seeking more powers for

Holyrood. Finally, the Sunday Telegraph. For the third week

running, they are running a major old-fashioned newspaper campaign

against what they say is my spending and extravagance in

Britain's a campaign. There are pages and pages it inside about

that. Polly Toynbee and matter Paris are here to review the papers

as promised. Let's start with the politics. Let's go to that

photograph you mentioned. Ed Miliband and his wife and their

children arriving at the conference. Like all party leader photographs,

this one is very carefully set up. Ed Miliband looking very relaxed in

a grey jumper and cramped moccasin- style shoes. The couple are looking

very much the happy family coming for a holiday, rather than a

conference. This is because Ed's people want to rebut the idea that

there is something a bit cold or pointy headed about him. People who

know Ed Miliband recognised the Ed Miliband in this picture better

than the cold picture. A Labour politicians are mostly very

reluctant to do that. We have had more of Cameron and kids, and

everybody knows what they look like. It is more like a once a year,

gritted teeth thing for Labour politicians to do. The Observer has

a big interview with Ed Miliband today. Andrew Rawnsley says the big

test is to make voters see him as prime minister. That is the theme

of all the papers. Can he shed some of but earnestness, wonkishness and

document, not used strange words? Will his authenticity actually be

more important than what spin- doctors did to Cameron? Up I said

earlier that the opinion polls showed that his personal ratings

were not great. They are pretty terrible. Yes, but they often are

when people don't really know a leader. It is true that he has a

cool demeanour or, but he has dignity and stature. Andrew

Rawnsley in that piece starts by saying that when he was asked

whether the country could see him as prime minister, he said, that is

for the country to say. Andrew Rawnsley quotes that as an example

of his detachment, but it is a dignified answer. You don't say,

yes, I think the country can see me as prime minister. I like the

stature there is about him. Everybody comments on how egg

relaxed he is under fire. His ratings have shot up. He has not

quite reached Cameron, but Cameron's have plunged down, so

Labour is hoping that at some point, the lines will cross. Cameron, at

this stage before the last election, was seen as less prime-ministerial

than Gordon Brown. So it shows how things can change. A helpful or not

intervention by Len McCluskey, the trade union leader. 70% of Labour's

money comes from the trade unions. This is the front of the Sunday

Times. The general secretary of unite, which gives Labour a huge

sums of money. He has said Unite would no longer fund MPs whose

views were not in line with the union's aims. I think it is

terribly important, if Ed Miliband is to make his peace, to woo the

British electorate and deal with this question of the trade unions.

Whether or not they exercise an undue or malign influence on the

Labour Party, people think they do. If Ed Miliband could do anything

about that this week, he would be surprised at what it did for his

writings. The fact that he has given an interview to the Sunday

Times is extraordinary, for someone like Len McCluskey. It makes him

seem irrelevant to the sorts of discussions that are going on in

labour at the moment. And here is the anti dinosaur person, which

will Reeves. As you said, a rising star, doing tremendously well --

Rachel Reeves. I have heard her making absolute humdingers of

speeches. Full of facts and information, and very confident. At

the women's conference yesterday, she was terrifically heralded.

Incidentally, the women's conference was full of women who

were really angry about what was happening locally to care services,

to Sure Start for children. This Labour conference needs to capture

some of that anger. Let's keep going with the papers. I have

always believed that most of what happens in politics goes completely

above the heads of most voters. In the Sunday Times, here is advice

for any MP struggling to explain the details of their policy.

Labour's Chris Bryant says he met a lady of 35. Asked how she might

vote, he said, -- she said, that Tony Blair seems to be doing

awfully well. What party is he? I once met someone who said they

would vote for Shirley Williams because she would stop immigration

and bring back hanging! Polly, you have chosen a non-political story,

the missing schoolgirl. everybody has been riveted by this.

Every parent's nightmare and every head teacher's nightmare. The

Observer has a story on its front page, saying that the police are

saying, for heaven's sake, don't do Baron -- don't abandon the European

arrest warrant. We would never have got her back without it. Tory MPs

sign everything that is against Europe and they say they want to

get rid of this. But it is one of the things that really works well.

It is commonsense, and let's hope they will all think again. I would

be a hopeless magistrate, because I feel sorry for both these people.

They have been silly and got themselves into such a mess, with

this fairy-tale idea of escaping, which was never on the cards. I

can't get as indignant as I feel sorry. I don't know, a 15-year-old,

with her teacher, who has a huge amount of power. You are right.

That is just not free will. You We should talk as well about the

Church of England this morning, which is locked in some argument or

other. Yes, the secret of choosing the Archbishop of Canterbury is

rumoured to be deadlocked. It turns out that one of them is out because

he is anti-women, another one is out because he is anti-gay. It

strikes me, and here is a prediction that this particular

bishop is going to win, because nobody knows what his views are on

anything. Thank you very much. A anything. Thank you very much. A

bit of American politics now? lovely picture, pretty much what

Americans seem to be feeling about Mitt Romney. A baby screams as Mitt

Romney picks up the baby. And there is a representation of the

situation at the moment, because it seems as if his campaign is going

from bad to worse. Politicians and babies! It never works. Here is his

wife saying she's very worried about his mental well-being if he

becomes president, which seems to me to be not very helpful, really.

Is there time for the fattest cat in creation? This is a animal

welfare charity, which is running a kind of competition, a kind of fat

camp for animals, to help particularly fat animals get

thinner. This Rottweiler now weighs 65 kilograms. I was in denial, says

her owner. We did not realise she had problems until she could simply

not stand up properly. So, that cat is the same weight as you? No, not

the cat, The Rottweiler. I know you are very slight, but...! This is a

list of overweight animals, starting with Fifi, the enormous

cat. I was the owner of a voraciously greedy cat myself, so I

take great interest in that. finally, Cavalier Marr is accused

of ignoring Jesus in his history of the world. I think sensible

Christians who watch the programme will be very happy with it,

actually. Will I be? I am president of the British humanist

Association?! Well, in the end, religion is an absolutely crucial

part of world history. Would not deny that for a moment. Thank you

both very much indeed. It isn't grim up north. It has great

restaurants, shops and beautiful countryside. But when it comes to

the weather, in particular, a certain Mancunian reputation for

moisture in the air, well, let's find out whether it is going to

rain today, with Peter Gibbs. Far be it from me to cast aspersions on

Manchester's reputation, but you're going to get wet later on, Andrew.

We have got some rain edging southwards, but it is a very slow

process. Some places will get some dry and sunny weather as well. The

rain will be on the heavy side across north-west England,

certainly in the afternoon, with river levels potentially starting

to rise again. In the north of Scotland, some showers coming in,

but quite a bit of sunshine in the afternoon. This is the wet area,

across the north-west of England. Not much rain getting across the

Pennines, mind you. But it is looking wet across Wales. It is

really through this evening and denied that eventually, the rain

pushes on, to become quite a wet night across southern parts of

England. Still brisk winds, although not as cold. On the cool

side, with fairly brisk winds, which really sets the theme for the

which really sets the theme for the rest of the bleak. Autumn is

definitely here to stay. Now, if politicians think they have

a tough time of it these days, perhaps they should count

themselves lucky they were not around 30 years ago. In the late

1970s, the UK faced an economic crisis, and the Labour government,

under pressure from the unions and the markets, was struggling to

survive. There were fist-fights in the bars of the House of Commons,

sick MPs were carried in to vote. Those times have been turned into a

new play at the National Theatre in London. I caught up with its star

to find out more about a time when Labour was clinging on by its

fingernails. It was an incredibly interesting period. A lot of people

think it is possibly the most dramatic period of post-war

political British history, from 1974 to 1979, which is what the

play concentrates on. Almost every political play concentrates on

well-known leaders, but this is completely different, concentrating

on the whips. Absolutely, the well- known leaders are just the

supporting roles. They have got their sinister black books of

things that people have done wrong, but they also cajole and support

people. This is a time when Labour are bringing people who are either

very ill or dying into the House of Commons so they can vote so Labour

can stay in power. Absolutely, because there is this gentleman's

agreement which I did not realise it was exactly that, a gentleman's

agreement. Basically, particularly Labour, and my character, had to

bring a very well-known character down from the North, who was dying

of emphysema. They tracked him down for these various votes. And then

we see towards the end of the play, it effectively changed the course

of political history in this country. There is an extraordinary

moment between you and your opposite number, Bernard Weatherall,

who went on to become Speaker, and your character, Walter Harrison,

who we should say is still alive. I don't know if he will be able to

come down and watch it. It will be great, he might be a little bit too

old. To James Callaghan government in the end fell because your

character, Walter Harrison, would not accept a kind of sacrifice

which jack Wetherall was going to make. We will not go into the

details now. Absolutely. But what was fascinating in the play was the

relationship between the two. Completely opposite sides of the

spectrum - a working man, electrician by trade, in the RAF

during the war, and jack was from a Savile Row family. These guys were

really tough men. Of course, there is a certain amount of male bonding

going on. Yes, I am playing the northern Yorkshire brute as opposed

to a northern Lancashire brood. I must be the only typecast

southerner who gets cast as a northerner in the business. There

are a lot of historic figures in this play, a lot of them still

alive. Neil Kinnock was in the audience when I saw it. Yes! He had

an interesting relationship with Walter Harrison, I think. We had Dr

David Owen in the other night, and we had the real and Taylor.

Taylor, we should explain, then a young female whip, in this very

macho Whips' Office. Underneath the warfare which was going on, it

seems to me that this play was quite a profound attack on British

parliamentary traditions - two sides against each other, kind of

thing, and there is a sort of dream of a better way of doing politics

which surfaces occasionally - why can't we be more consensual, why

does it have to be like this? you're right. Also, what's

interesting, we are one of the few democracies which has our

Parliament laid out in a rectangular shape, as opposed to

being round. I think there is only one or two in the world. Coming

back to what we were talking about earlier, this is about people who

are often seen as the villains, the ones who make the compromises and

the deals, the ones to break the fingers and push people through the

voting lobbies, but there seems to be an underlying theme that grown-

up politics is about compromise and deal-making, not about the airy

words of the leaders on television. I think you're right. Whether it is

possible to actually compromise and make those deals, as we are seeing

with the current coalition, is open to scrutiny, whether it is possible

- it should be - within a democracy, but whether egos and whatever allow

for that. It does feel not only very 1970s, in the look of it, but

it is the real House of Commons, you really feel that. Did you have

to do much rehearsing, did you go over and watch them at work? Yes, I

was very fortunate at a do a while ago to meet two MPs who were very

helpful to meet, and took me to meet the deputy chief whip. I also

met the Prime Minister, David Cameron, after prime ministers

Question Time. It was great, it was fascinating. It is an extraordinary

building, because it is very public school. The geography matters a lot,

because you have got the Whips' Offices, the absolute kernel of

power, in this play. Yes, and they are just off the main chamber.

There are some extraordinary moments where, for instance, the

young female whip is told to go through all of the toilets, peering

under the doors... To flush them, yes. To find out who is behind the

door. Yes, something else which actually happened. These were more

dramatic days. It was such a hugely dramatic period, and a lot of

people say that Jim Callaghan became complacent by not calling

the general election, and that was his downfall, in many respects. He

hung on a bit too long, and did not call the election. Meanwhile, your

character is trying to hang on for the next few hours, for the next

day, and becoming utterly exhausted. And of course, a lot of politicians

died at this time because they were shattered. Yes, a huge amount -

stress and nerves, I think the Labour Party lost 17 MPs in that

period. Well, it is a play that Ed Miliband and many other people, I'm

sure, need to go and see. They should and they shouldn't - they

might get too stressed. There are not many plebs in this one, that's

all I can say. Europe lead in this, come on! We were trying to work out

how to get that word in! -- You're a pleb in this! And with me now is

Ed Miliband, not looking too stressed. But at that time, one of

the big issues was the influence of the unions on the Labour government.

And on cue, we have Len McCluskey this morning warning you that

unless you change your policy on pay restraint, you're going to be

consigned to the dustbin of history - do you have a message for him?

The first thing I would say is that there is a very interesting

contrast between now and the 1970s. Think about what happened to Labour

after it lost that election. It became a disunited party, and it

lost touch with the electorate. We have not made the mistake -- that

mistake this time, and we are not going to. On what Len McCluskey

said, my view is very clear - we have got the right policy, we want

to put jobs in the public sector ahead of pay rises. It is a

difficult decision, but it is the way to keep jobs in the public

sector. But there is a bigger message also, I think, about the

Labour Party that I lead. I am not for pushing people out of the

Labour Party, I want more people in the Labour Party. There is no

future for this party as a party of one section of society. We must be

the party of the private sector, just as much as of the public

sector. I think I am pretty clear on that. I would like to ask you to

be clearer on it still. A lot of people say 70% of your funding is

from the unions. That's not true. What is the current percentage?

the moment it is about 40% from trade union members, that nurses

and engineers and shop workers. About 40% from members of our party,

and about 20% from other sources. I would much prefer that than a party,

like the Conservative Party, which takes the majority of its funding

from the City of London, and look what they're doing on the banks and

other things. But nonetheless, these are important sources of

funding, and you know that the suspicion is that people like Len

McCluskey feel that they are pulling your strings. They can come

in at the beginning of your party You can't say he is pulling our

strings. What is your filling about somebody like that used in the

first day of the Labour Party conference to tell you about what

you must do? He is wrong. He is entitled to his view, but he is

wrong. Let me correct you on one thing will stop it goes to the link

between the trade union members and the Labour Party. There will be

some who say, why doesn't Ed Miliband make a splash by breaking

the link with trade union members? I will not do that because, think

about what people think about politics, detached from the lives

of most people. What does that give us? At its best, the link with

trade union members gives us a link with people up and down the country

who go to work every day, get up early, put in all the hours God

sends. I will not break that link, but I will make at the right

decisions in the interest of the country. You were elected as Labour

leader, thanks to the votes of the trade unions. A lot of people said

it this is a system that has to be reformed. Is your position that it

is fine as it is, and we will carry on as things are?, because we

agreed a set of changes at the last conference. The first time,

something that Gordon Brown, John Smith never did, we have registered

supporters, people who are members of the Labour Party, people who are

not necessarily trade union members, are coming in and it will have a

vote in leadership elections. We have almost 10,000 of those signed

up. That shows the kind of Labour Party and determined to lead, a

party that reaches out to people and is a party of the whole country.

The biggest question when it comes to policy at the moment is what you

would do about the deficit. Would a Labour government at spend more

than the current coalition, or not? Here is what we would do now.

talking about the next election. will set out our plans in the next

election for what we will do in the next Parliament. We don't know what

the Government will be doing in the next three months, because

borrowing is going up under this Government. But here is what I

would do if right now. It goes back to the position we are in. We are

in a double dip recession, the longest since the war. We are not

in that recession because David Cameron wants us to be in it. It is

because he had a political strategy to say the real problem is that we

are spending too much as a country. If we cut as far as fast as we can,

everything will be all right. Aren't we spending too much? Were

are certainly spending too much on unemployment. Borrowing is rising.

Why? It is not to invest in schools, hospitals and transport. Borrowing

is rising to keep people idle. It is amazing. This recession has more

people out of work for longer than at any time for 17 years. And then

number-one priority is boring going up. We need a different approach.

Yes, there would be cuts if we were in government. But if we made the

pace of those cuts a slower, if we take less money out of the economy

now, it would be better for the economy, better for growth, better

for people up and down the country and better forgetting the deficit

down sustainably. Two and a half years ago, the jury was out. I

think the jury can now return its verdict, because it hasn't worked,

what the Government has done. deficit is coming down. You know,

it is going up. In the first five months of this year, borrowing is

20% higher than it was last year. Think about that. After all of what

we have heard, people will be shocked about that. They will think,

how can it be? At your answer is to spend more still? Our answer is

this. Our answer is not borrowing to keep people idle. Let's get

people back to work. One thing they could do would be to tax the

bonuses of the bankers and put young people back in work. It is a

simple change they could make. much money would you raise from

taxing the bonuses of bankers? About �2 billion. From bonuses

alone? And you would use that to put people back to work? We would

use some of it on housing and someone putting young people back

to work. Most people would think that was a good use of public money.

What about the position of the better off? Let's not call them the

rich, but the better off, generally. How attractive are you to a mansion

tax, a tax on some form of a gyrated wealth? It is an idea worth

considering. If the government wants to put forward at a mansion

tax, we would work with them on it. If I was in government tomorrow,

one change I would make in relation to the better off, the first change

in a Labour Budget would be that we would not cut at the top rate of

income tax from 50p to 45p. People have not quite understood this.

it would go back up to 50 pence? there was an election tomorrow,

that is what we would do. Let me tell you why. This Government is

cutting taxes for millionaires by �40,000 a year. Next April, David

Cameron will be writing a cheque to every millionaire in Britain for

�40,000. It is not quite like that. I don't think he sits down and

write cheques to millionaires. At the same time, you have people

in Manchester going to food banks. People are going to petrol stations

and can't afford to fill up their tank. That is wrong. There is a

massive difference in priorities between a Prime Minister that I

aspire to be who will stand up for the people in this country who need

the help of government, who can't get by on their own, and a

government that says, let's cut taxes for the rich. Your deputy,

Harriet Harman, says there are no circumstances in which you would

follow the covenant -- current government spending plans. We are

not following their spending plans now. But she says you wouldn't

because it is a failed policy, and therefore, we would not be

following that. Whereas Ed Balls is saying it is going to be a tough

spending plan. My question is, would you follow the spending plans,

the overall limits of the coalition government in the first couple of

years of government, or not? This is why people are fed up with

politics. You are asking me a political game question. I think it

is a straightforward question. People don't understand whether you

will be an old-fashioned tax-and- spend party, or not. We don't know

what they're spending plans will be. How can I sign up to their spending

plans without knowing what they will be? Let's try it in another

form. Nick Clegg says that whoever comes into power in 2015 will have

to carry on austerity, carry on squeezing spending. There will be

difficult positions we will have to take as a government, yes. So you

will come in as a Labour government without extra money to spend.

is what is important. What I am announcing this morning on banking

goes to what I have been talking about for the last few years. We do

not have lots of money to spend. I am clear about that. There will be

tough settlements right across public services. But it does not

mean there will not be a difference. There will be a massive difference.

You will have a prime minister who will stand up to the vested

interests in our society and say, we are going to change the way our

economy works. We will do what we have not done for decades and have

the big reforms that will make a difference. There is a change in

approach, because there will not be the money to spend, you are right.

I have been saying that big -- since I became leader. On the other

hand, there are areas where you do want to spend money. You want to

spend money on long-term care to improve that. You have supported

the idea of the living wage, which is higher than the minimum wage.

Nobody likes the would be redistribution -- the word pre-

distribution. I love it. Let me explain what that means. It is

about how you make the economy work for all working people without

necessarily spending public money. This week... Let me just explained.

What you have seen from the Labour Party this week, talking about how

we can change the way energy companies were, how we can change

pension systems so people get a fairer deal, how we can change the

bank's, that is all about how in tough fiscal times, when there

isn't money around, Labour can make a difference. To go to your

question directly, we are not going to spend money we don't have. Of

course we are not. Ted will be a lion in saying you cannot make

commitments -- Ed Balls and I are clear that you cannot make

commitments unless you have a chair idea where the money is coming from.

That is our watchword. When it comes to the actual issue of so-

called redistribution, getting people to take -- getting companies

to pay people more, so that presumably means public sector

workers as well? If it doesn't, it means nothing. It means that you

change the way our economy works without necessarily having to spend

public money. But this is about persuading companies to pay their

workers more, yes? It is actually about something else. You can have

your own definition if you like. It is about how you change your

economy so that it works for most people, but not necessarily by

spending public money. I don't understand that. If you have banks

that work for small businesses and get them the loans, that is better

for the economy and better for them. If you have a skill system that

trains people up properly so that they are more productive and can be

paid more, that is better for them. So it is nothing to do with pay?

course it is about higher pay overtime. In colluding in the

public sector? In it could be in the public sector. What people are

waiting for is a clearer sense of where you are prepared to squeeze

spending so that you can spend on the things you think are more

important. We are going to lay that out at the time of the election.

just want some sense that you have the steel to take tough decisions

about public spending. Let's go back to public sector pay. It was

not popular that we said that if we were in power in this Parliament,

we would put jobs in the public sector ahead of pay rises. We said

we would help the lower paid more than the higher paid up. But you

can't say we are not willing to take tough decisions on that or

when it comes to banking. Let's talk about banking. You say that if

the banks don't separate themselves into ordinary retail banks and what

have been called can sue -- casino banks or investment banks, you will

bring a law in which slices them down the middle? Yes. Let me

explain why. I want a country where a small business or individual

going into their high street bank knows that that bank is working for

them and not gambling with their money on the international markets.

That doesn't happen at the moment. Over the last year, we have seen a

watering down of some of the reforms the government was talking

about to try and make that happen. I have a clear message for the

banks. Either they sort it out themselves so that once and for all,

the high street bank is not an arm of the casino operation, or the

next Labour government will, by law, split those banks up so that once

again, we returned the best traditions of British banking, with

banks that serve customers, rather than customers and the country

feeling that they are serving the banks. Barack Obama has pulled back

from doing something that radical. Are you concerned that the result

of that might be large numbers of banks simply leaving the UK and

relocating abroad? Don't believe that will happen. I think the

British people want a prime minister who will do the right

thing for the country. So it is a price worth paying? At I believe

those banks have a commitment to Britain. What do investors want?

They want safety in their banking system. They want clarity about

what is happening in the banks and the way banks will work in the

future. We don't have that at the moment. A year ago, the government

had the Independent Commission on Banking, the Vickers report. Since

then, two things have happened. The Vickers report has been watered

down so that the report has been made at less safe in terms of the

impact it will have in the banks, and the culture change we need in

the bank's is less likely to happen. And we have more need for it to

happen, with things like the LIBOR scandal. We can't carry on as we

are. If the big boys from the banks come in and say, you do this, and

we are off, are you say, in that case, go? Do you want somebody who

will stand up to the vested interests in our society, or don't

you? If that is the test at the election between myself and David

Cameron, people will understand that I can answer that question

better than he can. Are you go to repeal the government's changes to

the NHS? Yes. Yesterday, you said there was no point in another great

change that could cost billions. Then Andy Burnham said it something

We will repeal their NHS bill. Why? Because that puts the wrong

principles at the centre of the NHS - it puts markets and money at the

centre of the NHS, and that is the wrong set of principles. I want

hospitals to be able to talk with each other, not to be sent to court

for colluding with each other, which is one of the things which is

being suggested. Are you suggesting that this could cost �3 billion,

and it will be a major reconstruction? No. What I said

yesterday is that am not going to do what David Cameron did, which is,

he came along, he did not tell us in his manifesto, he then had a

top-down reorganisation, which cost billions of pounds, at a time when

nurses were being sacked. We are going to repeal the bill, we're

going to make those changes, but obviously, we will look at the

detail of some of the changes that have been made, because I do not

want to simply shuffle the deck chairs again. When you get text

messages from Vince Cable, what are you talking about? I have actually

changed my mobile phone, I thought I needed to get away from him. We

have spoken about a whole range of issues. Such as? For example, it is

private, mostly, at the time of the Vickers report, he was kind enough

to give me a briefing on what the report might say. That is a time

when politicians can co-operate. But this has been way overdone.

Let's be clear, I want a majority Labour government. That's what I am

working for. If there are areas on which we can co-operate across the

divide, that's fine. But let me just say this on the Lib Dems,

because it is important - the problem about the Lib Dems,

including fines, I'm afraid, is that they are an accomplice to this

government. They are going in the wrong direction, I am very care

about that. And yet it is up to the British electorate, what happens at

the next election, as you know. You do not know how the cards will fall,

and you could be in the position of no party having an overall majority

again. Despite everything you have said, the Lib Dems are nonetheless

a party you could do business with, are you not? I am not going to get

into that. I have got an old fashioned view. Let's debate the

issues which matter to people. I say this to you - politics is an

insider's game about what's going to happen in 2.5 years' time, I do

not think that interests people, and it does not interest me.

opinion polls, your own personal ratings, they are still pretty

terrible. Very, very large numbers of people still saying, I do not

see this man has a future Prime Minister. I think it is quite a

compliment that the Tories have been producing these things about

me. I think I have got them worried, this far from a possible election.

I think it tells you something. However you regard all this stuff,

it is part of the job of a modern leader to project him or herself in

a way which people find appealing, and you have struggled to do that

so far - what more do you do? How can you approach this? It is not

trouble. -- it is not trivial. That's your characterisation. I

think ideas matter in politics, and I am not embarrassed about that.

Let me be clear about this - I gave a speech last year, which was

controversial, I talk about predator companies, predatory

behaviour. I do not regret that speech, and over the last year,

people have said, actually, maybe he was right about that. I am very

clear about this, I am my own person, I am going to do it my own

way. I think in the end, people respect somebody who has

seriousness of purpose, a clarity of ideas. Let me make this contrast

- four years ago, David Cameron was saying, I want to hug a huskie and

I want to hug a hoodie. Now, he wants to lock up the hoodies, and

he does not give a damn about the huskies. But with me, people will

know where I stand. The real question about who will be the next

Prime Minister at is, who can stand up to rebuild Britain and make our

economy work for everybody, and on that test, I think we can win this

election. We saw you and your family arriving in this city

yesterday. It is quite nice to bring my family hear! But this is

not going to be the start of the relaunch of Ed, lots of soft-focus

pictures, lots of interviewers on other kinds of sofas? I think as

Leader of the Opposition, and as somebody who wants to be Prime

Minister, people want to know about you, who you are and what makes you

tick. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to keep doing this mile

away. Brother David back in before the election - yes or no? Look, I

always say the same thing on this. He made a decision not to join the

Shadow Cabinet. He wants to be in the front line but not on the front

bench of politics. He wants to do his own thing. But you cannot do

that for ever. He is doing a whole range of things on youth

unemployment and on a whole range of issues. The door is open? He is

a huge asset to the Labour Party, but I am not getting into all of

that. On this programme, the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, said that he

would be iron in controlling public spending if his party won the next

election. He called the Liberal Democrats an accomplice to the

current government, not a brake on it. He said he was working for a

majority Labour government. A British woman is reported to be

missing income put Spain after flash floods devastated houses and

roads. It is understood she went missing in the province of Almeria.

Thousands of homes have been evacuated there. That's all from me

for now. The next news on BBC One is at midday. Here is a look at

what is coming up after this programme. A new law will give

teachers a anonymity when allegations are made against them,

but where will that leave complaining pupils? Should the

Church of England regroup around conservative Christian values? And

does sorry mean anything any more? Join us at 10 o'clock. I have been

joined again by Polly Toynbee and Matthew Parris. A blizzard of

advice - every single time you come to a conference, everybody has got

a view. Ignore it, I think, is the best advice. We were on this sofa

two years ago. Probably not this sofa. I think it was this sofa.

what have I learned most as Leader of the Opposition in that time? You

should follow your own instincts. Do you get fed up with people

saying that your pointy headed and intellectual? You do not go into

this job without knowing that you're going to get all kinds of

advice and all kinds of criticism, and I take it with a pinch of salt.

I do not read the good stuff, and I do not read the bad stuff. Really,

honestly? No, I do not. Spin doctors will tell you all sorts of

things about how you should be, how you should seem. Who are these

people? Do you think you should be in their hands? I am my own man.

Margaret Thatcher listened to them and changed the way she looked and

spoke and everything, and it worked. I am certainly not going to be

doing that. Just remember where we have come from as a party. You will

all remember the 1980s better than I can, and the Labour Party. This

is a party which is more united than any other in British politics,

it has not taken leave of its senses, or taken leave of the

electorate. We are a party on the way back, although we have a long

way to go. I feel quite confident about our position, knowing there

is a huge mountain to climb, but we are scaling it. We're going to have

no pictures of you with hostas? promise, no huskies. People like

that. There are talking about the party, but most people are

interested in you as a man. course, as I said to Andrew, that

is something I will talk about. But hugging a husky was good at the

time, but it turned out to be totally synthetic. That's why

people are fed up with politics. People like the Wallace & Gromit

cartoons - today sting, and secondly, do they make any

difference at all? It makes no difference at all, honestly. People

want to know, how is he going to make a difference to my life?

That's what matters. Thank you all very much indeed. We were looking

for some music for this week's show, and we did not have to look very

far. Ren Harvieu is from just around the corner here, and she has

made quite an impact since releasing her first single in the

spring. # Don't know why I'm so afraid.

Through The Night is influenced by 1960s pop music. It has been very

well reviewed. I am joined in the studio now by Ren Harvieu. Yes!

Full. Not very far to come. But you have had quite a year, haven't you?

You had a terrible accident, you were hit by somebody jumping over a

wall, I think. Yes. And you have had to perform on crutches for a

while. Yes, I had crutches, but when I go on stage, I put them on

the floor. I do not know whether the adrenalin takes over, but I

forget about it. I do not get pain much any more. Tell us a bit about

the song you will be singing now. It is one of the first songs I ever

recorded, it is about three years old. It set the tone for the rest

of the album. Looking forward to it very much indeed. Thank you very

much to all my guests. Next week, we move on to Birmingham, we will

be at the Conservative Party conference. I will be speaking to

the Prime Minister, David Cameron. But we leave you now with Ren

Harvieu, and the message perhaps for all political leaders, Do Right

# Why don't you tell me what it is that you want

# I'll tell you where it is that you should look

# Don't think I don't know so much about you, boy

# Just because I never came undone on your hook

# I know you play love like it's some kind of game

# And everyone you ever knew will get a page in your book

# Yeah, but how many times you gonna play the scene out

# If you'd only do right by me # Well, if you'd only do right by

# Maybe I would do all right by you # I saw you smile when you thought

you had crossed the line # Only to realise you'd never left

the start # Well I know you won't admit it,

baby # But I can see it's breaking your

heart # If you'd only do right by me