23/09/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome from Good morning and welcome from

Good morning and welcome from Brighton, where the Liberal

Brighton, where the Liberal Brighton, where the Liberal

Democrats are waking up, sunny are over and the skies are angry.

Pathetic fallacy: that's the technical term for saying that, for

instance, the stormclouds are gathering over Nick Clegg, as if the

weather had a political view of its own. However, I am afraid that this

morning such obvious images are irresistible.

There's no easy way to say this, the There's no easy way to say this, the

Lib Dems are languishing at or 10% in the polls. One poll puts them

this morning behind UKIP. Nick Clegg has a real fight on his hands to

rebuild trust in the brand and to convince members gathered here

he is the right man to take them into the next election. Mr Clegg is

with us, I am going to be asking him about that extraordinary apology for

breaking promises tuition fees and at a conference

dominated by the call for fairer taxes, is he really planning to

squeeze the rich and, if so, will be talking, of course, about

the coalition and the state of the economy as well. There's lots

coverage of the Lib Dems in the Sunday papers. Amanda Platell of

Daily Mail and the Mirror's Kevin Maguire have been filleting out the

best stories and we will from them in just a few minutes.

Also this morning, the legendary film director Oliver Stone,

well-known for his opposition to wars in Vietnam and Iraq, his latest

film slams the West's war on drugs but he defends violence in the

movies. More from him later. And also Lianne La Havas is a young

singer-songwriter already making her mark, nominated for

Mercury award, she is going to be performing live for us at the end of

the show. All of that coming up first the news with Jenny Hill.

Thanks, Andrew, good morning. Thanks, Andrew, good morning.

Individuals with assets of more than �1 million face a new crackdown on

tax avoidance. The changes mean 200,000 more people will

investigated by a special team of tax inspectors. The

been made by the Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury,

Danny Alexander. It comes as delegates at the party

are discussing ways of boosting their support.

Here in Brighton, the message is all about tax and whether it really is

fair, from a party keen on making sure that the rich pay enough. This

time last year Danny Alexander highlighted

unit of tax inspectors who would make sure the wealthiest weren't

ducking their dues. In interview he reveals that the number

of inspectors there will go up from 200 to 300, that the

been looking at those worth more than 2 and a half million pounds,

will now examine people worth than just �1 million, potentially

letting it look into the affairs of many more taxpayers. Already

inspectors have been talking to several Premier League footballers,

and forcing them to pay extra. It is just the sort of thing that will go

down well with the crowd and that's probably no

coincidence. After a very well publicised apology for making

tuition fees pledge they couldn't keep and the failure to

of the House of Lords, some here need cheering

So Nick Clegg will be seeking not just to rouse but to reassure

activists nervous about some of the compromises about being in coalition

The Conservative Chief Whip Andrew The Conservative Chief Whip Andrew

Mitchell is coming under more pressure this morning after one of

his friends told a newspaper Mr Mitchell had sworn during a

confrontation with police officers. The friend said the MP had sworn in

frustration at not being able to cycle through the Downing

gates but they insisted Mr Mitchell's words were not

at the officers. One man has died and another has

been seriously injured in a skydiving accident near

Peterborough. It happened yesterday afternoon, at just before 4.00. The

men collided at approximately 50 feet above the ground, causing their

parachutes to collapse. One man in his early 50s died at the scene. The

other, in his late 20s, is hospital with severe leg and spinal

injuries. Church services will be held

Greater Manchester today to the two female police officers

murdered in a gun and grenade attack. The area's

Sir Peter Fahy, said a prayer vigil will also

on from the deaths of PC Nicola Hughes and PC Fiona Bone. He has

been telling the BBC's Songs of Praise how his faith is helping him

come to terms with their deaths. It's rare for public figures

Peter Fahy's standing to speak so candidly about their need to pray or

the sense of vulnerability that them prayer helps address, but Sir

Peter said the murders of PC Nicola Hughes and PC Fiona Bone last

Tuesday had devastated what he called the family of Greater

Manchester Police. Sir Peter said that praying every day was

important to him and had helped him cope with the tragedy. For me

personally, and I think for a lot of people of faith, prayer

important. You do often feel so helpless, so praying for the dead

officers, praying for their families becomes your own reaction, your own

expression of hope really. expression of hope really for

at a time of great need. Sir Peter said policing was a vocation, a

calling that he felt in the context of his faith. It's not just a job

and I think that's what almost you go back to in difficult times,

go back to in difficult times, in difficult

go back to in difficult times, in difficult circumstances.

go back to in difficult times, in difficult circumstances. How

difficult circumstances. How unfair something may feel, how inadequate

you may feel, you do actually rely on at the end of the day you are

doing your best and this is vocation. He said

Manchester Police believe in the idea of an unarmed Police

Service that used minimum force and had a very close connection with the

community community it served.

Downton Abbey is leading the British charge at the prestigious Emmy TV

awards tonight, facing stiff competition from Mad Men which could

make Emmy history if it wins the category for a fifth

year. I will be back with the headlines

just before 10.00. For now though back to Andrew in Brighton.

Many thanks, Jenny. Now, as usual to the front pages today. I think in

political terms at least the strongest newspapers this morning

are the Sunday Telegraph and the Mail on Sunday. There is the Sunday

Telegraph, they have been doing this investigation into foreign aid, what

they called gravy train farce, they've got more on the Andrew

Mitchell story there: Chief Whip, yes, I swore, but I did not say

"pleb". We will be talking more about that in a minute. The Mail on

Sunday: taxman to target all million home owners. That new

blitzkrieg bunch of tax inspectors. The Observer has a key Clegg

saying the cuts have already been too deep and a shock report here, if

you are middle-income or you are going to get poorer,

certainly not going to get richer, until 2020. A pretty serious

prospect for the coalition government, and indeed for the

people concerned. The Sun has got Tulisa: my sex attack horror. Sunday

Express: road tax to be scrapped. Liberal Democrat Transport Minister

saying eventually it's inevitable that all drivers are going to pay by

the mile. That's the new way they are going to be taxed. What

shall we have here? The Sunday Mirror has an interesting: saved by

the plebs, a reference to the police there saying Andrew Mitchell was

saved when somebody in his constituency with a dagger

him. So lots to talk about. Finally, my favourite picture of the day,

The Independent on Sunday, this is new cloud formation which the Cloud

Appreciation Society are trying to name. The first time this has

happened since 1951 and it's apparently called the "agitated

wave". As promised, Kevin Maguire and Amanda Platell, an agitated wave

to both of you. Where are to start? The papers are pretty

miserable for Nick Clegg, a the weather, not a lot of good

for him, and the Mail on Sunday a poll which shows Liberal Democrats

in fourth place behind UKIP. There was a poll similar to that

yesterday, another one in The Observer and of course you show me a

political leader who says he doesn't read the polls, I will show you a

liar. That is not good at the start of an election. There's more talk

here about leadership plots. Ed Davey now said to be challenging the

Energy Secretary in the Cabinet. He is apparently trying to lose weight

and avoid club sandwiches to get ready for a bid. That may be

fanciful but the Liberal are talking aboutly after Clegg, it

has begun. Life after Clegg. poll says that even with party

members he has a rating of minus 2. This is an internal Lib Dem

Lib Dems? Exactly, and these are the people that he is here today to

try to convince, not just the wider public. But Vince Cable

interestingly has 75% good old Vince. He was also involved

tuition fees but he seems to have moved round that. Nothing sticks

him. In The Observer Nick Clegg making his now famous apology,

the swamp with a crocodile next to him with crocodile tears.

problem is, do people believe he is genuine? He has

if people are questioning you all the time it is difficult to get a

hearing. We will be talking later with him about that, I am sure.

There is lots on what is being called the mansion tax through the

back door. All very familiar, same old, same old that we've heard from

them. The most interesting thing it targets anyone with assets over

million pounds and they are going to use sophisticated IT techniques

go through your computers or files, everything, and I don't like

sound of that. But when Nick ran the old wealth tax up the

flagpole a few months ago he got shot down by the Conservatives, a

larger part of the coalition, and he will keep coming back that tax on

millionaires is go down. It's kind of thing that might happen

under a Lib-Lab coalition but hard to see in the current coalition.

Lynne Featherstone, the most Lib Dem in the Cabinet, she says: we

are the whipping boys even though we are the good guys. They are just

such whingers. Just get on with it! The other big story this morning

about Andrew Mitchell, the Chief Whip who was rude to the police.

The Sunday Telegraph have a friend of his saying he didn't say "pleb"

but he did swear. With friends like that, you've got extra enemies

the problem for him is the pleb word, political Kryptonite for them.

If you have somebody who attends the Cabinet, the Chief Whip, calling

other people plebs, well, you know And the problem is we have two

police now and one of them said that he used that word so how

do you - That is the devastating word. It's terrible. I don't even

know anyone who calls people plebs, it's so outdated, so arrogant,

it plays to the core of what all the focus group research, the Tories are

doing, says why they are unpopular. Do you think he will survive?

has to for now, I think. But "pleb" is laced with snobbery. If he says

he didn't say it, as the Telegraph say, he is going to

to go before the TV cameras and say what he said, Operation Grovel.

Sorry seems to be the easiest word in politics at the moment. I love

the story though, the tag, they are calling it Gate-gate. I don't think

they can get rid of him now is supposed to be in charge

discipline and is ill-disciplined himself. Overseas, I think you have

chosen a Mitt Romney story, another politician perhaps not

adroit in what he says. Talk about imploding. ROM any banks on TV

debate to help his faltering campaign. 47% of Americans will see

themselves as victims, dependent the state, absolute nonsense.

could be earning $50,000, have three kids and you won't pay federal

income tax, but will pay state taxes and so on. I suspect he has finished

his campaign. It's hard to see him doing well in those TV debates

against Barack Obama. But also was so offensive to Republicans

because most there has to be a safety net in

society. Look at Iain Duncan Smith's role in all of this and it's

offensive not just to Republicans but the Democrats as well, such an

ill-judged thing to say. A very interesting story from Libya running

over the last couple of days. This is amazing, we have been used to -

There we go, difficult to see. out of my way! We have been used to

seeing jihadists all over the world and these terrible killings and

protests and rioting, and yet in Libya a group of people who had

banners saying "We are Islam, we are not extremists", and with balloons

and with words they absolutely took over and put the riot out. This is

the first piece of genuinely good news out of Libya for a long time.

A very good piece in the Sunday Telegraph. The citizens of Libya

staged a dramatic display of law people power. Yes, it's The

Observer. Sorry. People with guns capture the news attention but this

is an antidote to the millions of people in the Muslim world wanting -

I just wanted to pick up on foreign aid story, something

Sunday Telegraph are running hard for the second week now, clearly a

big campaign. It is, and incredibly popular, because you know from most

of the research that has been in the polls that people think

in these times, when everything being cut, that the foreign

budget should be cut as well, course it's one of the things

Nick Clegg is absolutely determined not to allow to happen. And David

Cameron. And David because they think it detoxifies Cameron and

makes Nick Clegg popular. But these guys are bragging - How much money

they've got. They are awash with money, and they are called the

poverty barons and half the money goes to the richest countries. And

the Secretary when this was happening

was says he is a good guy and defends

A story about Stephen Pound, I A story about Stephen Pound, I

think? Yes, a story that he fell asleep in the Commons, but the

Sunday Times says Sunday Times says actually there's

great tradition of and the 8th Duke of Devonshire

yawned through his own maiden speech. Falling asleep during your

own speech, we haven't seen that for a bit. Amanda, you have a funny

story here about JK Rowling? she has a new book out, her first

novel for adults. She wrote a I think, for kids. OK, OK, so this

is her first sort of grown-up book and in here she talks about how

after she became really famous she suffered from terrible depression,

and you will remember she was suicidal when she was a single mum

penniless, when writing the the first place, but quite a

people would think: how depressing is it to have 540 million in the

bank, be happily married and have a couple of healthy kids. I know

depression can hit everyone but, know - Presumably

has told it, because it's not just people who are poor, but she is

Great British success story, that single parent, the very top as

writer. Jack Straw is in the papers, he has written

of the very few political memoirs which are genuinely moving and

revelatory, again talking about depression and how he fought that

during his time in office. The interesting thing is at least

has the courage to come out, it's still stigmatised, and it's still

happening, whereas for Jack Straw it's historic because I think it's

difficult for a politician to admit that they have that problem.

number have now. The temperatures have been dropping for the last few

days - there it is - and the stuff is back, but for how long and

where exactly? The person with I suspect some not entirely good news

is Philip Avery in studio.

Thanks very much indeed, not Thanks very much indeed, not

entirely bad news. Glad to see you survived your brief

the elements at the top of the show. It will spread ever further

this veil of cloud. Not all doom and gloom, much of Scotland and Northern

Ireland and the north of England, little fog here and there, a

of frost too, but at least you have some sunshine to talk about and you

will hold onto it for a good part of the day. Further south a completely

different kettle of fish. Good news about the story for Scotland, as

the case yesterday. So too Northern Ireland, wee bits of cloud around at

times but staying dry even across the north of England but the rain

moves away from the south coast, notice how we darken colours

the southeast, freshening wind as well. Heavy rain late on here. As we

come back to the centre of that low pressure, the southwest will get

real pounding late on. That's the Met Office will have an amber

warning, 60 mmm of rain. In the southeast it could really chuck it

down for a time. Come Monday, ever northwards across the British Isles,

an unfortunate combination to say the least. Very strong winds, a lot

of rain, lived colours, there could be localised flooding. Under

cloud and rain the temperatures be down in single figures. Cheerier

in the south, a wee bit of sunshine. Rain late in the day across the far

north of Scotland. I am afraid it's one of those weeks.

Yikes. Hear the words controversial Yikes. Hear the words controversial

and director together and likely they will be followed

Oliver Stone. He has directed of the world's edgiest films

including JFK, Born on the Fourth of July, Platoon, and he has a new film

out, Savages, also a book examining 20th century history. I met him and

asked whether Savages aimed to show both the good and dark sides of the

American dream. Nothing the movies than heaven and hell

mix it up. It starts in the beach, surf, beautiful bodies, young

people, Southern California, growing grass, legally, selling in

distribution, pharmacies in State. You've got this version of

the Californian Eden and into it erupts the extraordinary violence of

American drug cartels, people dressed in skulls and again heaven

and hell images are strong here. You can't make a Movio like

without - a movie like this without recognising the violence. We

push it as far as we could have. Stay flat until you get that clear

signal from me, you understand? Yeah. Now breathe. 3, 2, 1.

We had Harvey Winestein last week We had Harvey Winestein last week

and he is worried about the violence, he was a great

collaborator with Tarantino of course, but I was thinking, just

couple of days before watching this ten severed heads were hanging from

a motorway bridge in Mexico so presumably you are arguing this is

realistic? I've seen so many grisly pictures, it's worse than a movie.

You don't want to show it. You don't want to show somebody thrown into

bath of acid and his skin dissolving. It's disgusting.

Frankly, it's part of the world. No, I think we have to tone

it down and we want to make it acceptable, but if you turn your

eyes away if it's too much - sure. But frankly you have to acknowledge

it. One of the key characters in the film says early on: drugs are a

rational response to an insane world, or words to that effect. Yes.

world, or words to that effect. Yes. I wondered if (a) that's your view

and (b) what the message of the is, when it comes to the prohibition

of drugs. The effect of that. speak inside the character. She says

that, and so does Sean, and drugs to them, marijuana certainly, is

rational response to insanity because he has seen the Iraq War,

has seen the Afghan War, he has had his soul robbed. She says he has

inability to have good sex, he has wargasms, she says, not orgasms.

is dead in many ways. Having been to Vietnam, and I know people have

hard time understanding this - You are an ex-vet we should remind

people. I was in combat and over there

there marijuana was incredibly strong and we did it to keep the

stress away. It kept us human. I described it nicely I thought

Platoon where you see men dancing together, enjoying their

in war when it's a brutal We are in the middle of an American

election, of course, at the moment, and I think you had hoped for Obama

in 2008 - had hopes - with all drone attacks that go on in Pakistan

and in other countries, with the failure to close Guantanamo Bay,

etc, how do you feel about him now? I am very disappointed in some

things he has done. I do think only rational response to Mitt

Romney would be to re-elect him, I think there is a systematic

problem, we cannot get off treadmill we are on, whether it's

war on drugs, war on terror, war in Afghanistan, there is such a

consensus of correctness about it that it's very difficult to go back,

that's the problem. So you are asking what happens to America; I

wonder, and I am concerned that we don't have the means to change.

Unless - you know, I'm working this ten-hour untold history of

United States which is coming out in America now in November, and it is

an educational tool, it's very factual, very supported, and we

are showing another American history to the young

in the hopes that maybe that generation could possibly, if

still around, do something about this country. And this comes with a

book, and this is your take on I suppose the American history that

you yourself have lived well? Well, what we are doing

taking some events that forgotten and making them think

about them in another way and to build a pattern where you see

where the national security state is born. The national security state

didn't just come into existence with George Bush Junior, the second one,

it came into existence after War II. America changed radically

with the Cold War, and was the Cold War necessary? These are key

questions we raise. You reach you worked with Hugo Chavez

Venezuela, there was some talk you might go and film with Ahmadinejad

in Iran. This is a dangerous sort of thing for somebody in

to be doing, presumably, because it makes it very easy to say my enemy's

enemy is my friend, or you know what I mean? No, I'm not - I am doing it

out of curiosity. Unless you can have a dialogue with your supposed

enemy then you don't even know is your enemy, correct? Mmm.

unfortunately Americans have practised this form of censorship of

the other side. In America throughout my history as a man I've

seen the fear of the other is consistent motif of American

Fear of the other, whether it was drugs, whether it was Castro, or the

so-called socialist leaders of South America who were all democratically

elected by people who had had enough of the economics of the IMF and

World Bank. I'm just putting a camera in their face and saying

speak for yourself. That's what I did with Castro, and it didn't even

make it to American because it was supposedly so biased.

I am just back from the I was talking to a Republican

commentator and was asking about the anger and vitriol there seems to be

in the American political discourse these days and she said: the thing

is we actually now live apart. Republicans and Democrats live in

different areas, there's no common conversation, we listen to

radio stations, watch different programme, sometimes we support

different kinds of sports, and I wonder whether a film like Savages,

coming back to the film, is one of the last ways of

conversation happening? In other words, you can raise issues and you

will get people of all stripes and political allegiances coming to

so you can talk about drugs? There's no question that

movies can be a bridge between all cultures. A good movie plays the

world and that's one of the great attractions for me of making these.

They are very - you know, my films, if anything, have been to some

degree, have polarised people and people have taken attitudes but

think in the end it's important show the effects of war and what

really does, and that's on the Fourth of July you show a

in a wheelchair, the same thing true about Savages. You have to

a little bit of the penalties that you pay for calling this a war on

drugs. Oliver Stone, much for talking to us. Thank you,

The legendary film director Oliver The legendary film director Oliver

Stone, and his new film Savages shall we say, been savaged by

of the reviewers. The same applies to another film released on YouTube

by my next guest. Nick Clegg's apology for breaking his party's

pledge on tuition fees was called abject and desperate by his

detractors and quickly set to music in a popular satire which he has

taken in good part. His widely trailed party

will be shown in full tomorrow night but before I talk about why he

it with him and the many challenges facing him as Lib Dem leader, let's

take another look at an unusual political moment. There's no

way to say this, we made a pledge, didn't stick to it, and for that I'm

sorry. When you have made a you should apologise, but more

importantly, most important of all, you've got to learn from your

mistakes and that's what we will I will never again make a pledge,

unless as a party we are absolutely clear about how we can keep it.

As I said, most unusual to make it As I said, most unusual to make it

and then release it in the way that you did. Was there a sort of

bulb moment when you thought: to do this? No, actually for quite

some time I have been wanting to say that because it was no secret. It's

as I said, I think what we did was a mistake, I think it was wrong and I

have been meaning for some time kind of put my hands up and say we

made a mistake, we've also done lots of good things which I felt

being obscured by that, and so I just wanted to kind of make the

apology in a simple, direct way, which as you say of course gets

mocked and sneered and in mocked and sneered and in frankly in

many respects amusing ways, musical and others, I think the Westminster

village is always quite cynical about these things. Of course some

people will say it's not going make any difference; I hope

people recognise that in politics as in life it's sometimes just the

right thing to do to say I made mistake, admit it and we won't do

again. The people who are still angry will say: the problem was,

this was an entirely deliberate and rather cynical attempt to get the

votes of students in places like your constituency, Cambridge and

others. You can say sorry, but they gave you their votes on a false

prospect it is, and you can't give them their votes back again.

be clear, we campaigned in the last general election on a manifesto

which was based on what we would do if we were running the government

and I was Prime Minister, OK? What I am apologising for is something

slightly different but quite importantly different

we signed a pledge which said that we would vote against tuition fees

under any circumstances, - We can see it in a second. If I

can just stress the point, I lead party which has 8% of MPs in

House of Commons. That's political fact. I would like to

Prime Minister, I would like us to have won the general election. We

didn't, we came third. We in fact lost a number of MPs. But you

it was unlikely that you were going to become Prime Minister, if I

say so, and furthermore, when held that pledge up, you were

promising that you would not vote a particular way, and then you did.

When you see that pledge again, do you cringe, do you think that was

just a terrible, terrible moment me? Forgive me, I am just going to

repeat myself. I think it was mistake and I think it was

and for that I think it was right that I should apologise. Mmm. And

to those people who voted for you and say "I can never vote Liberal

Democrat again, I feel so betrayed", what do you say to them? Well,

guess I would ask them, particularly those who say "Oh, that's why I'm

going to put all my faith in Labour Party", have they heard

Balls apologise for him going prawn cocktail charm

the City of London to let the banks off the hook, which got us into this

trouble in the first place, have you ever heard the

apologise for dragging us into war in Iraq? I know what I am doing is

illegal, I wanted to do it for some time because in human terms I made a

mistake, I think it was wrong and I should apologise and I am waiting

still for some apologies for some big things from the Labour Party as

well. Let's move on to what is clearly your main theme at this

conference, fairer taxes for times. Mmm. Are you seriously

suggesting that you are going able to introduce a wealth tax?

During this Parliament? Well, I mean, can I just be clear, what my

view is this: we now know that the country is going to have to go

through a period of belt-tightening, of fiscal retrenchment, for longer

than we had hoped and for whoever is going to be in Parliament in

in government in the next Parliament, will have to

further savings. That is an economic fact now. We would like to have

tried to clear the decks before end of this Parliament but that has

not proved possible. I think important we start having

now in the middle of this about the principles that govern

that period. We have not gone through such a period of

belt-tightening the last war so this is a huge

undertaking and I start from simple principle that when you are

doing that you should start at the top and work down, not start at

bottom and work up, in trying to work out how to make the numbers add

up. That is why, when I from the right say all the money

should come from poor people, should come from people who have to rely

some of them through no fault of their own because they've lost

work and need some support before they find new work, that all the

money should be taken away from them. I'm saying: hang on a minute,

let's make sure we do this as fairly as possible. I understand the

principle; what I want to know is actually what you are

Are you suggesting, for instance, a mansion tax? Do you say you can't

move houses and therefore that is a good thing to look at? I believe

a mansion tax because I can't think why anyone thinks it's OK if you are

an oligarch in a �3 million house in the middle of London you pay the

same council tax as someone in a family home next door. So I

in a mansion tax. We have not yet managed to persuade the

Conservatives, even though I have to say there are an increasing number

of Conservatives who understand the merits of having more tax on high

value properties, so you can lower tax on effort and work and income

and initiative. I understand the principle. Can I ask you again: is

there a snowball's chance in hell of a Conservative-led government

introducing a wealth tax? I there is a very considerable chance

because we've already done a lot of it to make sure that the top pay

more tax. And you can persuade George Osborne of that?

already persuaded the Conservatives to increase capital gains tax, to

increase stamp duty, to massively clamp down on tax avoidance such

that most authoritative figures show you that because of figures

that - because of decisions we taken with Conservatives, the top

10% are paying more rather than less in overall tax. All I'm establishing

here is not sort of going through a great long list of additional

policies, which of course there are plenty of additional ideas around,

but it's establishing the principle that as fiscal restraint

carry on for longer than we you have to ask people at the top to

make a contribution. A principle is one thing - And I think many

who are of considerable wealth in this country want to play their

part. This isn't the politics of envy, this is not going after

who are successful; this is making sure that we make this journey

country, that we succeed in making this journey in a fair and equitable

fashion. What I am still confused about is whether this is a jolly

aspiration "One day wouldn't it nice to have a wealth tax", that's

actually what we need to do, or whether there is any concrete chance

whatever during this government of wealth tax because I would

to you there is none and these just words. Do I think I am going

to succeed with David Cameron and George Osborne, doing the right

thing, to take on people who live in fancy mansions, so far I've

to do so. I will continue to make the argument - And you will carry

on failing, I suggest to you. This is where you are failing to make a

distinction. The mansion tax is not the only way in which you can make

people at the top make contribution to this huge national

effort of balancing our books, we have already, as I've

to you, through capital gains tax, through stamp duty, through tax

avoidance and many other measures, already ensured that the top 10% pay

more and we can do more of that. OK, I was going to say, let me put

the question slightly differently. Is there any realistic chance,

you believe, that this Conservative-led

government is go going to make the wealthiest in this country pay

with some new measure before election? Yes. What kind of new

measure do you think you are talking about? That's clearly the kind of

thing that we are talking about. And you think you can

George Osborne to squeeze the further? It's very simple and I

have given you a one-word answer, yes. I will tell you why. Because

the vast majority of people in this country would find it wholly

unacceptable if further fiscal austerity was implemented on the

backs of the poor. Most people this country are very fair-minded,

they understand that we are in middle of a very difficult journey

of repairing, rescuing and reforming our British economy, and they

us and they want particularly Liberal Democrats in government to

fight for the fairest possible way of doing that. Now, let me be clear,

I'm not saying that something as big as welfare, which is about a third

of government expenditure, is immune from further savings, but I'm

that the burden has to be spread fairly, yes. The reason I'm going on

about this is that those fair-minded people out there, who are listening

to this conversation, who want the wealthy to pay more, are hearing you

at this conference say "Yes, we are going to make the wealthy pay more".

If you don't deliver that, goes back to the tuition fees

problem, you are saying something that you can't deliver, so tell

more about how you are going to make the rich pay more. There are

numerous ways that we've already done it and numerous ways that

can do more of it. I think it will bore viewers if we go through the

encyclopaedic list - Give me one example. All the other things we've

already done. Not that you have already done. But given this is

about what the country does in the next eight years, I think it's right

we set down principles and why I can be so emphatic is I think it's

certainly unacceptable to me, think it would be unacceptable to

the vast majority of British people and I actually think that sensible

Conservatives realise that it would be unacceptable to only introduce

further measures of belt-tightening in a way which only hits on the

poor. That isn't right, that's not the way you reward aspiration. If

you can't get any kind of movement, serious movement,

Chancellor on this, do you then veto further cuts on, for instance,

welfare budgets? I can't - I don't think I can be much clearer with

you. I will not accept a new wave of what they call fiscal retrenchment,

of belt-tightening, without asking people at the top to make their

contribution, to make an additional contribution. I don't think you can

ask people on middle and low incomes, the vast majority of the

population, to bear the brunt of this adjustment. When it comes to

the timing of all of this, is it the case that the Liberal Democrats will

not accept a planned further reduction in spending that goes

We have plans for - our spending We have plans for - our spending

plans, the overall spending plans bring us up to April 2015, and those

will stay in place, not a penny more, not a penny less.

there is a very specific issue about the financial year 2015-16. If this

government doesn't sort of cross all the t's and dot the i's about

the spending plans will be for that year then the lights start going out

in Whitehall, civil servants get paid, you don't get transfers

local authorities. So it is a we should set out spending plans for

the years 2015-16, after all we will be in government for the first

weeks of that financial year and possibly longer depending on the

outcome of the next general election. However, we are not going

to be bound hand and foot as Democrats to Conservative spending

plans over the whole of the next Parliament but we will need to fill

in for the whole of that first year, yes. So when George Osborne wants

further three-year programme can't have it? Of course George

Osborne is happy to talk - but can I make one other point. This is part

and parcel of what most people agree with, as we fill in the black

in the public finances, we also need to make sure we don't make the

old mistakes but we re-wire the British economy to make it fairer,

give people more opportunities. Let me give you one very good example.

At the moment we've got thousands of young people desperate to get their

feet on the first rung of property ladder but deposits have

doubled, the number of young who are asking for help from family

members to get a mortgage has doubled, so I can announce

that the government is going to something which hasn't happened

before, is we are going to work out ways in which parents and

grandparents, who want to help their children and grandchildren buy a

property of their own, we are going to allow those parents and

grandparents to use their pension pots to act as a kind of guarantee,

if you like, so that their youngsters, children and

grandchildren, can take out deposit and buy a home. It's a

pension for property scheme. That's yet another example, and I've got

Steve Webb and Danny Alexander working out the details, another

example of how we are getting people without great disposable income but

those who have a pension pot to use it for good purposes helping

children buy a home of their own. Let's turn to another aspect of

this. A lot of people will say "Yes, a wealth tax is something we can

imagine with a Lib-Lab government; we can't see it happening with a

Lib-Conservative coalition government", and the reason that

so sensitive is because your party are so closely talking about this,

Vince Cable said he was discussing this with the Labour Party,

Hughes has said he is talking to Ed Miliband. Are you not a little

concerned that around you the rest of the senior Liberal Democrats are

chatting to the other side? first thing I would say is

get widely overexcited about the revelation that politicians talk to

each other across party lines. I've had lengthy conversations recently

with Ed Miliband, with David Miliband, with Peter Mandelson,

Blair - talking about a wealth tax? Talking about other things, reform,

things that politicians continue to talk about - But a

wealth tax as well? On that, it was the Labour Party which presided

a tax system for 13 years which two features which Labour have now -

it's an important point since you have raised Labour. Firstly, the

upper rate of tax was lower at 40% than our new upper rate, much

criticised, of 45% - You voted cut income tax for the richest.

This is what I'm trying to point out. The cut we are introducing next

April will still leave the upper rate higher than it was under

Labour. OK. And secondly Labour presided, despite our constant

warnings to the contrary, over a grotesque tax system which allowed a

banker in the City of London to less tax on their dividends and on

parts of their income than the cleaner did on their wages. Now, we

changed that by raising capital gains tax by a significant

the moment we came into government so ironically it was a Liberal

Democrat - I agree with you it's ironic - it was the coalition

government that introduced fairer tax measures which Labour had balked

at for 13 years. But now Cable and Ed Balls are discussing a

mansion tax and it has been made clear that any chance of a Lib-Lab

coalition depends on you go. not up to them to decide on the

outcome of the next general election. I will say what I have

said a thousand times in the run-up to the last election which

it's not about the personal likes and dislikes of politicians that

should drive this, it should be British people. In the

election as you will remember, the only possible outcome to create

stable government, which we needed at a time that the country was

teetering on the economic brink, was a Conservative-Liberal Democrat

coalition. Whilst I know there plenty of criticism about this or

that decision, I've apologised for things we've made mistakes on, I

think the big judgments the Democrats have made, big judgments -

and at the end of the day it's big judgments you get judged on at

election day in 2015 - were right. We were right to

in the first place. At that you made it absolutely clear you

would not go into government Gordon Brown under any circumstances

so it's hardly surprising they are turning around saying we don't

Clegg. It was wholly different. Gordon Brown was Prime Minister and

the British people would not have accepted the Prime Minister becoming

Prime Minister again via the back door. It was completely different.

Gordon Brown had been Prime Minister, he has lost the

election and I said this out of no personal malice, it would have been

wrong for Gordon Brown having lost the general election to walk

the door of Number 10 again. As to your own future as party leader, if

the Liberal Democrats - Much speculated upon. Much speculated

upon, there are plenty of people plotting all around us. I am not

sure that is right. I can show you, I've met some of them. There really

are. Are you absolutely will be party leader at the time

the next election? You will say you want to be party leader but it is

to this party and your internal polling figures amongst Liberal

Democrats are terrible, the electorate. A lot of people

saying we really have to move Nick Clegg as party leader if we have

chance of avoiding local elections and then the general

elections. I've just spent the whole summer speaking to more

Liberal Democrat members than you have. That's certainly true.

That's certainly true. I make it my business, which is right, it's

of the things I actually enjoy my job, really understanding what

people are feeling in my party, which I lead, and I have been

every single part of the country holding open sessions where

can ask me questions and yes, are anxieties, yes, there are

concerns about clearly the damage done to our standing in the polls

because of what we've done in coalition government. But there is

extraordinary resilience and unity and I would ask you, after the end

of this conference, to make a fair judgment about whether you

this party - OK, are you - let me finish - is a divided party or an

extraordinarily resilient party grateful under fire, yes accepting

that we are getting in the neck right and left and of course I do

more than anybody else as that is part of my job - So

is no chance that you are going to stand aside before the election?

Absolutely clear? I think the idea that when you are halfway up a

mountain you suddenly bail out when the journey gets most difficult,

that you suddenly flinch, I'm not going to flinch, I don't think you

should when you are halfway journey where no one can possibly

predict what the circumstances, economic and political are

be in 2015 and in the meantime I am going to concentrate on what is the

central mission of the Liberal Democrats in government, which

only to rescue and reform the British economy but to do so

as well. If Andrew Mitchell was Liberal Democrat minister, would

still be in his job? I think that civility, being courteous to the

police, is important, all times, but of course it's

especially important given the tragic events, the killing

Fiona Bone and PC Nicola Hughes, so what Andrew Mitchell did was wrong,

very wrong. He knows that. He has apologised to the police and

explained himself. I think he was right to do so. Do you

needs to make a fuller explanation? Does he need to come in front of the

cameras and explain what and talk to the country? A lot of

people are very angry about this. They are angry and I can understand

that they think it is plain wrong to be discourteous and rude to the

police who are only doing their job after all. It's that word "pleb"

that seems to have caused most anger. Yes, of course. Of course.

He has apologised for it and right too. He should do

done. Unless something comes to light about rival versions

what was and wasn't said, that I don't know about, I think he should

apologise, apologise in full, done that, that is right, and draw a

line under it in that way. And in his job. All right, Nick

for now thank you very much Over to Jenny for the headlines.

has told this programme should be introduced to ensure the

wealthiest 10% in the country their fair share of tax. He said

that though he believes in a mansion tax further measures should be taken

too. Mr Clegg added that the Liberal Democrats were not going to be

by Conservative spending plans the next election.

Church services will be held today Church services will be held today

in Greater Manchester to remember the two female police officers

murdered in a gun and grenade attack. The area's

Sir Peter Fahy, said a prayer vigil will also be held on Tuesday, a week

on from the deaths of PC Nicola Hughes and PC Fiona Bone. In an

interview with the BBC, Sir said his Christian faith was

him come to terms with their deaths. The Conservative Chief Whip Andrew

Mitchell is coming under more pressure this morning after one of

his friends told a newspaper Mr Mitchell had sworn during an angry

confrontation with police officers. The friend, who hasn't been

said the MP had sworn in frustration at not being able to cycle through

the Downing Street gates, but they insisted Mr Mitchell's

not directed at the officers. That's all from me for now. The next

news on BBC One is at midday. Back to Andrew in Brighton in just

moment. First though a look at what is coming up after this show.

Today, after two WPCs were killed this week, we are asking should we

arm all our police officers? As violent protests continue against a

low budget anti-Islam film is it time communities stopped being so

offended? And is marriage anymore?

Well, it's that time of the Well, it's that time of the

programme when we turn to music, which is why Nick Clegg is still

with me and we have been joined again by our paper reviewer Amanda

Platell. We are going to go back to that apology. I think we can

say it's the first time, Nick, you have been climbing the music

charts and the iPlayer charts, at number 32. Let's have a little

# It was made with the best of intentions

intentions intentions

# It was # With the best of intentions

# But we shouldn't have made pledge we couldn't deliver

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry # There's no easy way to say it

It's quite good actually. It may be It's quite good actually. It may be

slightly more effective than the original. Did you have any

that was going to happen? No, it's amazing how quickly they do

things but they said we want to sell it on iTunes, I said fine, go

You can hardly say no and it's very catchy tune, but as long as the

money raised goes to a charity in Sheffield, where I'm an MP to the

Sheffield Children's Hospital, they agreed, so I hope that

good way of doing it. Mmm. Amanda, you are probably not the strongest

supporter of the and Nick Clegg in the media. Shock

horror, there's a surprise. Sorry, Nick. What's your reading of

it will be a blustery week? I think you've got as much to do to convince

your own party as you do the country, and I feel a bit sorry

you actually. All these polls are absolutely appalling. One had us at

18%, not too bad, is it? It reminds me of the days of William Hague -

You were his press secretary. But I must say you smile a lot. The day I

take advice from Amanda on the internal sentiment of the Liberal

Democrats, I've clearly lost the plot. It will be a difficult week.

You say you enjoy talking Democrats but it must be hard

you getting this level of abuse and attack for so long. You can

have thought when you went into politics

you? Look, I'm not trying to be silly, of course the polls are bad,

but I have to say to you, I spend a lot of time - I don't live behind

the battlements in Whitehall, I am out and about with my children every

weekend, leading a relatively normal family life, out and about in my

constituency a lot, and people even if they don't agree are keen to

engage in an upfront, civil way. This idea of constant remorseless

abuse isn't the way I experience things. As Amanda said, you

cheerful on it. One more treat as we have time for some real music.

Lianne La Havas is an acclaimed song writer from London who has released

an album earlier this summer, Your Love Big Enough, and she has

been nominated for the Mercury award. You have a tour

coming? I have, yes. I will be here on the 18th. So people of Brighton

know that. Being nominated for a Mercury - there are endless prizes

around - how big a deal is that? It's a pretty big deal. It's the

dream nomination, I think, for British singers and artists. And

singer-songwriters are doing well at the moment, aren't you?

There's quite a wave of people - Would like to think so. Have you

been writing your stuff time? I have, for a good few years

now so it feels amazing to be noticed for it. Marvellous,

we are going to look forward to very much indeed. We will be on the

road again next Sunday in Manchester, at the Labour Party

conference, where I will be joined by the leader of the opposition, Ed

Miliband, so do join me at the usual time for that. For now,

we leave you with Lianne La Havas and No Room For Doubt.

# You caught me, gilt # You caught me, gilt

# Taking the pieces of you # That night, took flight

# I won't let a safe bet # I won't let a safe bet

# Continue to make me go blue # I could go solo

# Would that be the right thing do?

# We all make mistakes, we do # We all make mistakes, we do

# I learnt from you # We all make mistakes, we do

# I learnt from you # I tiptoe, too slow

# Out of the door to your house # I know you know

# That this way leads me out # Outside, too bright

# You're within, I'm without # You're within

# We all make mistakes, we do # I learnt from you

# We all make mistakes, we do # I learnt from you