14/10/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning, welcome, in particular, perhaps, to Britain's

parliamentarians. They have a last relatively calm Sunday morning

before Parliament returns tomorrow. Will Labour keep its conference

season bleed? Will the coalition resolve its differences? Will

ministers confront Brussels? Will Thrasher Mitchell stay as chief

whip? The battle is back on. There is lots about the awful Jimmy

Savile story, which has caused deep tensions here at the BBC. We are

going to be talking about that and much more with our reviewers,

broadcaster and best-selling author Clare Balding and that Sage

Observer from The Times newspaper, David Aaronovitch. You get the

impression from the papers that the biggest headaches are for the

Ministry of Defence. The Mail on Sunday says that there will be

marchers on parliament in protests against Army cuts, the first time

that has happened since the days of all the Cromwell. As well as

generals allegedly acting on your contracts. The defence secretary,

Philip Hammond joins us to discuss that and more, including the exit

from Afghanistan and the future of BAE, Britain's largest manufacturer.

Also, David Cameron goes to Edinburgh to sign a deal with Alex

Salmond on referendum for Scotland. It includes giving 16 and 17-year-

olds are the vote and has been denounced already as a walkover by

one leading Tory. Michael Moore has been at the heart of negotiations

in Scotland. I have also been speaking to one of the legendary

Pete Townshend, in his only television interview, to coincide

with his autobiography, gives his account with the wild years with

The Who, smashing guitars and breaking personal boundaries. He

also talks about his arrest after a police investigation into child

pornography on the internet. Good morning. The Ministry of

Defence is to investigate allegations that former military

chiefs offered to use their influence in Whitehall to help

private firms win government contracts. Undercover reporters

from the Sunday Times, posing as weapons manufacturers, claimed that

retired senior officers offered to lobby ministers on their behalf.

The MoD says it will be looking to Equipping our troops for battle in

Afghanistan and elsewhere is expensive. It is a lucrative

business for defence manufacturers. Former military personnel are

allowed to work for defence companies in the private sector

after retirement, but only after two years. The undercover reporters

spoke to Admiral Trevor Soar, former commander of the Royal Navy,

who retired earlier this year. have to be slightly careful about

ministers. There is no reason I cannot see them, but there is some

criteria on that. OK, how do you get around that? You basically

ignore it. When confronted with the recording, he told the Sunday Times

that he had not broken any rules. There is no suggestion any of the

retired officers accepted any money from the fate lobbyists. In a

statement, the Ministry of Defence said that former military officers

have no influence over what MoD contracts are awarded. There will

be an investigation to see if any rules were broken and a rigorous

process is used for the approval of all equipment projects. This latest

newspaper investigation will once again pose questions about the

rules surrounding lobbyists at A former BBC executive has revealed

that he questioned Jimmy Savile about allegations over his private

life more than 20 years ago. It is the first evidence that the DJ was

challenged about the rumours at a senior level in the BBC. Police now

say that his abuse could have Welcome to January 1st, 1964...

the time he presented the first edition of Top Of the Pops, police

believe that Jimmy Savile may have been abusing stop they say that

allegations date back to 1959, when he was in his early 30s and a

dancehall manager in Leeds. The abuse is believed to have continued

until 2006, when he was nearly 80. The number of likely victims now

stands at 60. Derek Cherry was controller of Radio One in the 70s

and 80s. He says he confronted the DJ over stories about him. What are

all of these rumours we hear about you? He said, this is all nonsense.

It is easy now to say, how could you just believe him like that? But

there was no reason to disbelieve him. He was the sort of man that

attracted rumours, after all. describes Savile as an eccentric,

colourful character who never talked about his private life and

did not socialise with other DJs. He said he was shocked and sickened

Two NATO and four Afghan security personnel had been killed in a

suicide bomb attack in Afghanistan. It happened in Kandahar province.

NATO says one of those who died was a soldier, the other a civilian

with coalition forces. Their nationality is not known. The

Taliban have claimed responsibility. Here, the Ministry of Defence has

announced that five Royal Marines have been charged with murder in

connection with an incident alleged to have taken place in Afghanistan

last year. A total of nine marines have been arrested as part of the

inquiry. Four have since been released without charge.

More than 30 animal disease experts have signed a letter urging the

Government to reconsider controversial plans for a Banja

cull to tackle TB in cattle. Badgers are thought to spread the

disease. -- badger. The Government has given permission for pilot

culls in Gloucester. The report says it could increase the risk of

cattle getting TB. If you don't want to know what

happened in the Korean Grand Prix, press your mute button now.

Sebastian Vettel became the first driver to win three consecutive

races this year as he took the chequered flag. Red Bull team-mate

Mark Webber finished second. Fernando Alonso was third.

Sebastian Vettel now leads the championships. I will be back with

the headlines just before 10 The front pages, as usual. The

Sunday Express has a story about a children's hospital in Bristol as

its lead. Probably the most significant political story that

you have not heard in the news is Michael Gove, off the record,

admittedly, saying in the Mail on Sunday that he wants and in or out

referendum on Europe and he would vote to leave Europe. Interesting

repercussions inside the Government, I'm sure, on that. The Independent

on Sunday is leading on the return of land mines. We have heard about

the Sunday Times story already. There is the Sunday Telegraph,

again, leading on the Savile story. A huge amount about Savile in the

newspapers, talking about police blunders. The Observer, an

interesting story, an interview with Judi Dench. And talking about

scientists attacking Banja cull. -- I think we should start with the

Savile story, in every single newspaper and making for unpleasant

reading? The Sunday Telegraph has it as its lead. Not all the

newspapers do. But all of the Sunday newspapers have a

significant section on it of some kind or another. What it is

reflecting his... How would you describe this, an avalanche of

material coming out, a huge number of accusations. We heard the figure

of 60 today, it is not going to stay at 60. If somebody has been

active over four decades, it is going to be a large number. It is

interesting how many different, big organisations are fearful that the

finger will be pointed at them. In many ways, everybody has been

complicit in this, for falling for him. The BBC has been particularly

in the firing line, for obvious reasons. Take us through some of

those stories. The latest development is the Independent on

Sunday, the row within the BBC between... Well, investigation

between what happened, why was the Newsnight story dropped, what were

the circumstances? A piece in the Independent on Sunday talking about

what George Entwistle asked. Basic the saying that he did not ask

anything about content. He said, that is great, fantastic, get on

with it. Thanks for letting me know, actually. People right at the top

of the BBC are struggling and are being challenged by people inside

the BBC and by newspapers, many of whom have no reason to love the

BBC? That is true. For a while, I was executive at the BBC in the

news division. I have to say, I do not by the notion that somehow or

other there was an internal decision to try to suppress this.

That is not the way the place works. To give you a very small example, I

happen to know that the Today Programme was leaned upon, or

attempted to be leaned upon, during the Russell Brand crisis by

somebody in the director general office, when he was away, saying,

can't you stop doing this, we've had enough of this? The Today

Programme did what I think Newsnight would do, told them to

take a running jump. We are not great to have this. When the

director general came back, he corrected that. It's not really the

issue of what Newsnight did or did not do, it is the 40 years that

precedes it. All of the institutions, including the BBC,

are owed a duty of care. It feels like a version of the Catholic

Church. It was probably after Esther Rantzen and trialled line

that the national mood, as David has written, changed so

dramatically? -- ChildLine. He was the great entertainer and great

fundraiser. Lance Armstrong has not been accused of any sexual

shenanigans, but it is not entirely dissimilar in terms of the fallen

idol. The great cyclist who has been found to be doping throughout

his career? Two massive pieces. The Sunday Times has been consistent,

there have been superb on stories. People were frightened of Lance

Armstrong. He was very intimidating. He threatened all the time to take

out injunctions to see people. Jimmy Savile did the same thing. He

was very physically intimidating and people are scared of him. These

are two people that were almost... They were toughing it out so much,

they would almost hint as if they might be guilty and then say, but I

am untouchable. It's a strange state of knowing an unknown. A

large number of people, somewhere, knows something is going on, as

with Lance Armstrong. They know what they are saying about his

character, publicly, is undermined by what they know about him

privately. But the rest of people, who do not know that, they have to

buy the winning or the charity raising at face value. They have to

have this guy as a complete hero. It's a bizarre situation. It is

terrifying, because it says are not about the nature of celebrity. -- a

lot about the nature of celebrity. You become slightly untouchable.

made the point about being brazen. If you are not brazen about it, if

you show self-doubt, you don't get away with it. People are not ready

for the brazen person. If you are going to tell a lie, tell a big one,

it always used to be said. We mentioned the Sunday Times story

about the generals. This is a fascinating one. It is a classic,

old fashioned sting operation, undercover reporters pretending, in

this case, to the South Korean drone manufacturers? Yes, I am sure

that South Korean drone manufacturers are very well known

to generals. This is a Sunday Times scoop, as you say, a classic sting.

You send somebody, you phone the number of people up, see if they

are interested, represent yourself as somebody with some money to

offer. What I find interesting about this, what they have done is

wrong and it is clearly... Some of it is actually against regulations

and so on. It's also a bit tacky, using a memorial service,

Remembrance get-togethers and so want to put pressure on? Hugely.

But it reminds me of the scene in the Bible when Jesus is tempted by

Satan, look over all of this. People come up and say, we will

give you vast amounts of money for essentially doing nothing. Having a

word with somebody. We will give you �100,000 if you have a word

with somebody on Remembrance Sunday. These generals did themselves up by

saying, yes, I can get you in touch with them. Knowing full well that

nobody is going to buy a South Korean drone because an ex-general

had a word on Remembrance Sunday. But they think the people they are

dealing with are fools, when they are themselves the fools. People

think this is not really good journalism, but I wonder how many

people have decided, people that have been in the public eye,

decided they are not going to engage in activities like this just

in case the person who called them up is the Sunday Times? I think now

you have to assume if somebody comes up with a large amount of

money, almost certainly they are The joy of Sunday papers has to be

the supplements, and the Observer has a very rare interview with Judi

Dench. She doesn't often give interviews to newspaper or

television. It is such a thrill to read about her at length. Great

comic timing, greater awareness of the ridiculousness of this world,

and she works at such a rate. She only stopped twice, once for the

birth of her daughter and once when her husband was ill. She basically

says she thinks it is our business to do as much as we can. She wants

to try different things, take risks. The amazing thing about her career

is how long people talk to see that she can be a star on screen as well

as theatre. She said she went to a screen test and they basically said

everything is wrong with your face. She says I think it is always

appalling to see yourself on film. As I can't help but think, people

said to me when they knew I was coming on with you today, when is

she going to takeover the football commentary? It is like a national

treasure on national treasure. thought you were going to choose

the bestseller lists. I haven't looked actually. I don't think you

need to look. You haven't pushed Andrew to number two, have you?

Where can all agree that people want a really good history book for

Christmas. I actually, on my father, rather frighteningly, a lot of the

book has my father in it and I am quite harsh on how he was when we

were children so I knew he was going to do an interview with a

journalist I have known virtually since I started working, and I

looked with horror. It is a full- page interview in the Sunday

Telegraph with a nice interview of my father's dog, he will be

thrilled with that. It looks absolutely gorgeous. At least she

says he is the undoubted star that leaps from every page with the tact

of an untrained gorilla. I rang him that day of the Olympics and he had

watched the women's boxing and the dressage, and completely changed

his view on women being able to box and thought the dressage was

fantastic. Clay its move to the Michael Gove

story, talking about women's boxing. There was never going to be a good

segue! When friends of Michael Gove have direct quote, it means he has

said it at some party. It is him talking and it says that he said he

is ready to quit Brussels. What he means by that as I gather, we want

to renegotiate and the whip hand we hold over you is that you don't

give us our way then we are prepared to go. I have to say, I

don't read Europeans as responding to that very much but obviously he

thinks it does. The political significance is that David Cameron

has been trying to put off the idea of a referendum. He wants to

renegotiate certain areas and bring that relationship back some time

and then have a referendum. Michael Gove is saying it must be an in or

out referendum. He has an elaborate plan, goes through the election and

starts with the re-evaluation of what Russell -- Brussels does. I

can't read this as helpful book to Montgomerie has already sent a

tweet that he believes eight other Cabinet members share Michael

Gove's position. We have run out of time sadly, we were going to do

mitt Romney but he will have to wait on to learn of the week. I was

in Norfolk in Cambridgeshire yesterday and it was fantastic.

Wonderful autumn light and that Chris good to be alive sunshine.

What is the out look for the rest More of that sunshine on offer for

some time today. Still chilly, but it should be right for many later

today. We have got a little bit of rain, with showers piling in across

eastern parts of Scotland whereas in the West it is generally dry and

bright. Sunny spells, some light showers, a scattering of light

showers across northern England with many places avoiding them, but

more persistent rain across parts of Norfolk for instance. The

Midlands look fine and bride, if somewhat chilly. We could see some

more persistent rain heading in here to the south-east by this

evening. We have dry clear conditions for many places so fog

overnight could be a problem. In the countryside, temperatures will

be hovering a degree either side of freezing overnight. It is all

change for the week ahead - we will see rain at times, it will be

turning windy and milder. Enjoy the autumnal sunshine for the next

Barring any last-minute hitch, David Cameron and Scotland's First

Minister Alex Salmond will sign an agreement tomorrow for a referendum

on Scottish independence. The Prime Minister has four his argument they

should be a single question, but Alex Salmond has won over the

timing in 2014 and how the question will be phrased and who get to vote.

The Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore is here. You were at

the centre of these negotiations in Scotland. Firstly, are we right

that this agreement will be unveiled and signed tomorrow?

have reached agreement with the Deputy First Minister Nicola

Sturgeon which has gone to the Prime Minister and the First

Minister and he will sign that tomorrow in Edinburgh. The context

is very important because we are setting up to allow people in

Scotland to make the most important political decision in 300 years,

the choice as to whether we stay in the United Kingdom or go our own

separate way. The challenge that has been placed to both governments

in the last few months is to make sure we get a referendum which is

legal, it is fair and decisive and did his made in Scotland. When

people see the detail of what will announce tomorrow, they will see we

have achieved that. And it is going to be a straightforward question,

there will not be a further devolution Max question. That is

something that was important to David Cameron. Alex Salmond wants

it in 2014 because it is the anniversary of the Battle of

Bannockburn and he wants to be able to phrase the question, and he

wants 16th and 17 year-olds to vote. It is premature for anybody to

reach any views on whether it has been a walkover. I think people can

have confidence that when they see the agreement it will ensure that

both governments' set of objectives have been achieved. You don't think

Alex Salmond has run rings around do? No, because we were looking to

make sure we had a referendum that was legal. 18 months ago when he

won his historic victory in the Scottish parliament, won a majority

there, there was this pledge to honour and we are helping him to do

that. Let's make it legal and fair, and that goes to the heart of the

rules of engagement. Let's make sure it is decisive because we need

to make sure that once it has been decided it will be resolved. Why is

it happening in 24 team? David Cameron said again and again he

wanted it more quickly. There is a good argument for saying it should

be sooner rather than later, but we are agreeing the details of this

progress should be made in Scotland. This will allow us 2, having sorted

out the process, to move on to the big issues. It puts up in lights

the key issues at stake which have been buried away. David Cameron did

not want to wait 18 months, and it gives Alex Salmond more time to

build up the case for independence so he will be pleased with that.

am happy to take whatever length of time it takes to investigate the

different issues. If you look at the key issues about the economy

and our place in the world, there is a strong positive case for

Scotland continuing to be part of the United Kingdom. Explained to us

how you are going to explain to 16 and 17 year-olds, who will get the

vote for the Scottish referendum, a massive question for the future of

their country and Britain, but then will not be able to vote in the

next general election? That is a bizarre decision, isn't it?

will have to wait for the detail tomorrow about how this will be

sorted out. As a Liberal-Democrat I am comfortable with the idea of 16

and 17 year-olds participating in elections. What I recognised is

There is not a consensus about that at Westminster. What the debate

will enable in future it is work out how that debate plays through.

It is the Government's position moving towards them getting the

vote generally? There is no consensus on this at Westminster.

As a Liberal Democrats I am perfectly comfortable that 16 and

17 year-olds should get the vote. We are not creating any precedent

here. In Scotland, when they have had referenda in the past on health

boards and the like, they have set the franchise themselves and

included that age group. It if it is going to happen in Scotland for

this, this is an issue which will become much more hard to push away

for other elections including Westminster elections. This is back

on the table as a pretty big change for Westminster as well, surely?

The will be a lively debate about a lot of the detail about this

process, but I am delighted we are to historic moment where we will

have agreements between the UK and Scottish government which allows us

to get on with this referendum. The big issues about what is special

about the UK, none of that has been terribly well examined. Unionists

have been guilty in the past for taking a lot of that for granted.

What about the question of some sort of fresh hold or margin there

has to be reached before independence is triggered. Plenty

of people argue we should not be a straight forward numerical victory

of those voting. I have never at any stage in this process had

anyone suggest there should be hurdles. New in the past have

studied Scottish politics closely, you saw what a hurdle did in 1979.

This has to be a straightforward process, a framework of rules

accepted by each side to focus on the big issue of the economy, about

Scotland's place in the world and house secure we are. In your water

has come will Scotland vote for independence? That Paul has a 25%

lead for those who want to stay part of the UK. When people examine

our opportunities, how much more secure we are, they return to

saying we should stay part of the Thank you. I will be interviewing

Alex Salmond next Sunday. Now, along with the Beatles and Rolling

Stones, The Who have been hailed as one of the great Trinity of British

rock bands from the 1960s. They were notorious for their outrageous

stage performances and indulged in rock'n'roll excesses but The Who

also pushed boundaries musically, driven by the guitarist and

songwriter Pete Townshend who went on to have a successful career

himself. A few years ago he was arrested and later accepted a

police caution during an investigation into child

pornography on the internet. Pete Townshend has just published his

autobiography telling his side of the story. When we met recently, we

began by talking about his childhood in a musical family in

My earliest memory was being on the band bus, pretending to drive, with

all of these drunken Scottish band members on the bus. My father was

an incredibly handsome man, a beautiful musician. He never really

took me seriously as a musician. Then, suddenly, yes, our music,

this silly scare for all that came out of the Graeme Rivett band

started to infect, in a sense, particularly television. For me, it

wasn't just about overthrowing my dad, it was that I could see this

schism, the function of pop music One of the themes in the book is

that, far from being simply a way of letting off steam, even the

sound of rock music, as it develops, and you are one of the people

building that sounded the feedback, he is a response to the horrors of

the war and also rising fear about being blown to pieces in a coming

nuclear war? I think that is right. I think our sense of inability to

articulate it, or have a right to do so, we had not fought, a lot of

us had not even been called up. We felt this was off-limits. But, none

the less, we felt very affected by the war years, the way that our

parents and grandparents had been damaged by it. Like a lot of bands

of the time, there is a division between the art-school guy is to

have, perhaps, a grander vision of what music might be and, well, in

the case of The Who, the sheet- metal worker's. That seems to be a

tension that lasts all of the way through The Who? I would flip it. I

have never been interested in the Diana, I have never been interested

in the kudos or the money. -- the glamour. I just wanted to be an

artist and took serve my it audience. What is wonderful for me

is that... I will not swear, but this is what they normally do, they

say, I was brought up, I was a young kid, quad Ruthenia came along

and it changed my... Life. That is what I wanted. And that is what

happened. I think what Roger wanted was to escape. Being like Elvis,

you know. In his last year at school, he used to have is a --

zip-up trousers. This was before skinny jeans. He was a teddy boy,

you know? He still says to this day, that was the look. The Teddy Boy

luck. Let's talk about a few of the songs. My Generation. That was

extraordinary? And The Stutter? Stutter, I wanted it to be about

the in articulacy of the audience. I wanted to make the singer sound

like he couldn't explain himself will stop I came up with that

stutter. But that was actually something that came from two R&B

artists, John Lee Hooker. Stuttering blows? That's right,

From early on, you had ambitions to write rock opera, on a bigger scale.

And Tommy is the most famous example. What you say about Pinball

Wizard, that comes a very late in the process? It was actually

started off as not so much wanting to write a rock opera, but to write

a story of a spiritual journey of a young man. If you think about when

I started to write in 1967 and 1968, it was what was going on at the

time. It was almost finished and we brought in this young journalist,

Nick Higham, who have was writing for The Guardian at the time, I

think, OBE Observer. He came in and listened and I said, what do you

think? He said, it's OK. We said, just OK? He said, it's a bit cheesy,

or whatever the word was at the time. It's about a guru? And I said,

yes, but he's deaf and blind, and he hears music. He said, that is

making it worse! I knew he was a pinball fan, cos we used to play

together. I said, what about instead of being a spiritual guru,

he was a pinball champion? He said, I like it. I said, would you give

it a good review? He said, if it was about a pinball champion, I'll

give it five stars and an extra # From Soho down to Brighton, I

must have played them all. # Up but I've never seen anything

like him, in any amusement hall... In terms of global reputation,

Woodstock is important for you? Definitive. The smashing of the

guitars, you have to talk about the smashed guitar on the wall. You

must tell us how that started. was trying to get new sounds out of

the guitar. That is what I was doing on stage. I used to going to

Jim Morrison's music shop and say, give me bigger weapons. From that

came at the antics with the guitar, putting it in front of the speaker.

It was an art movement, or the destruction? The art school

connection was one where the guitar breaks and suddenly I think, what

do why do with it? And I decided to finish it off. Roger was saying,

don't do any more, he thought he could repair it. I had another one,

a lesser one, and I continued like I meant to do it. The word got

around. I realised that what I had done was crazy. I also realised it

would be seen as something of a gimmick. But I also knew that I

felt that I had destroyed the tools of production. There was a finality

to it. Then I went on and did us a couple of million more times.

of the interesting things, you never really completely signed up

for the rock and roll lifestyle. There is the drink, the women and

the rest of it. But you were quite interested in staying faithful, you

are not going completely... I'm trying to find the right words, not

completely bonkers? I tried, partly because my marriage was such a good

one. My wife was fantastic, art school, we were very close. The

Keith Moon years, they were difficult to resist because he was

so funny. He was so funny and so entertaining. The road was

miserable. It was just miserable. He made it bearable. One got drawn

into it. Let me ask you about the terrible tsunami of publicity that

affect a delay to Ron, on the child pornography issue. -- affected you

later on. It's pretty obvious, looking at your book, you were

badly abused, probably, as a small boy. You had this very strange

grandmother. Once you start to look through the songs, it is there, a

lot of the time. There is pain and protest all of the way through the

story of The Who? I think there is. That is sad for me. When I was

writing those songs, I don't think I was aware of that. In the way

that I am now. What actually happened, for me, is that when I

was working to do so be quite simple, to help provide funds for a

helpline. I opened a newspaper, there I am, on the front page. From

that moment on, I have had to pull everything to my bosom and go,

listen, I cannot deal with this in public. For those people watching,

the absolutely clear, you did not ever download child pornography?

Absolutely not, not only did I not download it, I did not look at it

and I had no intention to look at it. The police came in a swamp,

they took every computer, every videotape, every desk, 11 computers

and found absolutely nothing. This was driven, I'm afraid, by the

press. It was driven by the hysteria of the time. The other

thing that people find difficult to understand is why, since you had

not downloaded anything wrong or sordid, all of the rest of it, you

accepted a police caution and, as it were, held your hands up rather

than going to clear your name. Which you could have done? I don't

think I could have done. I think by the time I got out of the other end

of the court case, what the Crown Prosecution Service told me was

that my case was so high-profile that they could not let it go. I

knew that I would go to court and I was worried that I would be in the

witness box and a clever JP would get under my skin and I would

explode at him. That is what I am afraid of, this sense that the

person that you put in the witness box is a four and a half year-old

boy. And I cannot go there. I don't think I thought of the significance

of the consequences of being labelled as a sex offender. Part of

the business of writing the book is to try to clear that whole episode

and go back to being the great musician that you are. Let me ask

you about what is going on musically, at the moment. I am

working on what I call a piece about a young man who abandons

music in order to address sounds that he is hearing in the air,

which are sort of musical. So I had a chance to try to create that

music. I have a chance to write the music that he wrote when he was a

young man. That is what I am working on. It is adventurous and

audacious. You have been very generous with your time. A final

question, I must ask you about the relationship with Roger Daltrey. It

seems like a very intense, difficult marriage where you cannot

live together and you cannot live without each other I do? I think it

is probably as good as it is going to get. He spoke for me when I

could not. He spoke to me when I had been instructed to keep quiet.

It was great that he did so, because he knows me better than

anybody. We are perceived to be at war, but we are not really at war.

What we are trying to do, and we are much more aware of it as we

approach old age, what we are trying to do is we are trying to

find union. We are realising that # People try to put us down, just

When we played at the Olympics, it was quite strange. There we were,

on this massive stage, they put the fire out, bad timing, while we were

on stage. This sense that this should be a defining, enclosing

moment, and it wasn't. The story goes on. Philip Townsend, thank you

very much for talking to us. -- Pete Townshend. We are going to be

putting out a longer version of that interview, including some

guitar-playing, on the website. It's exactly a year since Philip

Hammond was appointed Defence Secretary. Any hopes of celebrating

a quiet anniversary had been blown away. There are multiple headaches

facing him, notably the Sunday Times's allegations that retired

top military brass are willing to lobby on behalf of defence

contractors. Philip Hammond is with me now. This is a classic sting

operation, of course. None the less, a series of extremely eminent

people who appear to be prepared to use events like Remembrance

celebrations, commemorations, private dinners and so on, to push

the interests of defence companies. What is your view of this? First of

all, I think the revelations are deeply damaging to the individuals

concerned and their reputations. I would like to be clear that there

is no way that retired officers influence the way that military

equipment is procured. I am satisfied that the system that we

have is completely robust. But there is an issue, firstly about

whether any rules have been broken. Clearly, at least one, possibly

more of the individuals named in the Sunday Times piece were still

under the terms of the two year restriction that applies after they

have left the service. Secondly, I think we have to look at the level

of access that we give retired officers to the MoD and to serving

officers. There are many, many reasons why it is sensible for the

MoD to maintain contact with retired officers. They often asked

by people like yourselves to comment on things that are going on

in the defence area. But if they are refusing that access for

commercial purposes, we will have to tighten it up or shut it down. -

- abusing that accessible stopped Hardy you feel about somebody

sitting next your secretary at dinner, with part of the purpose

being to tap him on the shoulder about something? Knowing my

permanent secretary, I arm relaxed about it. He will be totally immune

to that kind of approach. What we have seen on these operations

before his people bigging up there qualities and what they can do.

I here a lot of bravado. People who are talking about things they have

said or done at events. I don't remember any of those things

This source says I have to be careful lobbying ministers. How do

you get around that? You basically they ignore it, he said, which

suggests the rules don't matter. The air is a two-year rule during

which they are required to abide by the advice they committee gives. If

we find people are not taking that advice and not abiding by the

advice they are given, we will need to look at whether there are steps

we can take to shut down their access to ministers and officials.

So you are going to look again at the rules? It is looking at how

they are up and forced. Military officers don't have contract in the

way civil servants do. They are appointed by the Sovereign, but the

company's these people would be offering services to rely on the

MoD as their principal customer, and if we were to make it clear to

companies that the kind of lobbying that is being talked about here

will damage them, that will be quite effective. I am putting to

you newspaper stories, but it is a day to do that. There is an

interesting story about the second Battalion of the Royal Regiment of

Fusiliers. Are we going to have a debate about that? It is a debate

about Arnie cuts, and in this March there will be serving officers

taking place. It hasn't happened since the days of Oliver Cromwell,

serving soldiers marching in protest. They will presumably be

breaking their contract? It hasn't happened and I don't expect it will

happen. The what would you do if it did? That is an issue for the

military chain of command, and one of the things that is very

important in my job that I understand what my responsibilities

are, and I don't meddle in what are the military's responsibilities.

Convey be court-martialled if they did? If they turned up in uniform

and tried to march towards Parliament, that would be very

serious. We try to take a common sense approach to these things but

I hadn't heard before I read this story to date of anything like this.

I think what will actually happen is a few ex officers from this

particular the Italian will turn up, sit in the public gallery and

watched the debate, and they are welcome to do so. We know there has

been a black hole, as you describe it, in the defence budget and we

know the regular army will be cut by about 20,000 people. You are now

proposing to increase what is still known as the Territorial Army,

part-time unpaid volunteers, by about 15,000. The not unpaid.

paid at the same rate as full-time soldiers. Yes, when they are called

up and they are serving, they get the same rates as serving soldiers.

Yes, but for a strictly limited time, so they are cheaper and the

question will be, is this an attempt to get an army on the

cheap? The size of the regular army is being reduced to 82,000. That

was one of the steps we had to take to rebalance the defence budget

after dealing with the black hole Labour had created over many years.

The senior army commanders are very confident that they can maintain

the military out puts. We will need more reserves because we have

restructured the army with a focused on the front end. We are

taking out a larger percent of things like logistics, for which we

have a limited need in peace time. When we mobilise or carry out an

end during Operation like Afghanistan, then we have a much

greater dependence on logistics. That is an ideal area for

reservists to be involved in, people we can call up when we have

an operation on going, but when we don't need the same volume of

people during peacetime activities. They are called the Territorial

Army because they defend the territory, but you are describing a

force that will be regularly going overseas. Have you got a different

name for them yet in your head? my head they are the army reserve

and they will be an integral part of the regular Army. They will

train with the regular army, do overseas training this year. I

would like to see them renamed. It will take legislation, but when the

opportunity for legislation comes along, we will change the name.

will see the army reserve and it will look and feel different?

we have already started issuing different army uniforms, they will

have Army radios, regular army- style vehicles, so we are bringing

their kit in line with the regular Army. Under the new construct, each

territorial battalion will be paired with the regular Army

battalion so that's there will be a permanent twinning arrangement.

Presumably the soldiers who are being made redundant will be in the

Army Reserve, or so you would hope? We are trying to make it more

attractive for them to do a period in the army reserve. It helps with

numbers, but it also helped to change the ethos of the army

reserve if we have a significant cohort of them in there. I know you

won't want to comment in detail on the five soldiers who have been

charged for allegedly improperly killing somebody. Are you

absolutely clear that the rules of engagement are known to everybody?

Yes, absolutely clear. Everybody serving knows the rules of

engagement. They carry cards in their uniforms with the rules on

them in case they should need to remind themselves. I can't comment

on the specifics of this case. Either way, they are not out there.

This is something that happened last year, these people were back

in the UK and they are not in Afghanistan at the moment. We are

determined rules of engagement will be followed, abuse will be dealt

with, and that is what is happening now. The army has paid a terrible

price in terms of people mutilated and killed in Afghanistan, and in

particular there has been a rise of the green on blue killings, the

Afghans who we are supposed to be training, and helping to prepare

their country, turning and killing our people. Does that not show that

the strategy which you defended in the House of Commons not so long

ago actually isn't working? No, I don't think that is right. We are

very clear that we are going to end our combat mission at the end of 24

team. George Osborne apparently wants to come back earlier. Let me

come back to that in a moment. We will be out of the combat role in

2014, in the meantime we are training and Afghan army and Afghan

armed police. Do you really think they will be able to hold on

against the teller banned after we are gone? -- against the Taliban.

Transition is well-advanced. Our forces are mainly in the main

operating bases, going out occasionally to support them, but

by and large the Afghans, already, two years ahead, they are in

control of security. And yet the Taliban can mount major attacks on

Kabul itself. It doesn't feel like a secure situation. The attacks in

Kabul, actually Kabul is remarkably quiet for a city at the heart of

the country facing a major insurgency. There have been a small

number of significant attacks. George Osborne said at a government

security meeting that it might be a good idea to bring the troops back

now, was that the silly thing for him to say? Anyone who knows the

Chancellor's style will recognise this as a rhetorical posing of the

counterfactual to the received wisdom. His style is quite properly

to challenge received wisdom. Everybody is talking about the plan.

So you don't think he meant it seriously? He was asking us to

justify the current plan, by putting it to us that we could

simply come out now. Do you think there was any chance of bringing

the bulk of people home next year? Following my last visit to

Afghanistan, I detect a change in mood among the senior commanders

that it will now be possible to have a significant reduction in

force numbers by the end of next year, after the next fighting

season. That is because of the evidence this year that as the US

has withdrawn its search, the Afghans have stepped up to the

plate. Can you give any sense of numbers? If I would expect it to be

significant. That means thousands, not hundreds, but I would not

expected to be the majority. We are talking about 4000, it sounds like

to me. A by the beginning of 23rd team we will have 9000 troops over

there, and by the end of 24 team we will have virtually none. We were

talking about the mood, let me ask you about the mood on something

else. Michael Gove has been quoted talking off the record that a

referendum on Europe will happen. If he was pressed, he would vote to

leave the EU. Do you agree with that? There will not be a

referendum now. That point Michael is reflecting is that we are not

satisfied with the current relationship between the EU and the

UK. The balance of competence is not right and the mood has changed.

That is because, for the first time in a decade, those of us who are

uncomfortable with the way the relationship has developed see an

opportunity for the relationship to be renegotiated. There will come up

point when the eurozone need to renegotiate its arrangements, and

its relationship with those of us not in the eurozone. Would we

survive happily and satisfactorily outside the EU? Nearly 50% of our

trade is with the European Union. That has declined slightly, it used

to be more. It is still a big proportion of our trade so it makes

sense for Britain to be in the single market but to reset the

relationship so we have a balance of competences between Europe and

Britain which works for Britain and the British people. Thank you.