21/10/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome. Not a good week for Number Ten,

omnishambles is the word cropping up in the newspapers, the Mitchell

resignation, policies thrown out in all directions, and some

spectacular insults, this dog of a government, says Lord Tebbit this

morning. Let's salute one minister struggling to explain the new

energy policy in the Commons, a Labour MP demanded whether he

understood it, and he replied, a yes or no answer would be

insufficient to deal with the question, indeed it would be almost

an insult to him to reduce my answer to that level. Now that his

style! We are going to be talking about politics and more in our

review of the newspapers with Shami Chakrabarti and historian Dan Snow.

Our bunch of incompetent Lord Snootys was how Alex Salmond

described David Cameron's government to his conference

yesterday, not terribly polite, given that he has just signed a

deal on Scotland's independence referendum with David Cameron. Alex

Salmond has two years to convince the Scots to vote for independence.

What would it mean for money, defence and passports? And should

everyone in Britain have a say? I will be talking to him in a few

minutes. As the crisis at the BBC over the Jimmy Savile case

continues, the papers are full of it again this morning, and we ask

whether the people at the top can have been unaware of the

allegations over 30 years. Former BBC director-general Greg Dyke and

ChildLine found and long-standing BBC presenter Esther Rantzen are

here. With the public service unions are the march, how would a

Labour government work with the teaching unions to drive up

standards in schools when cuts, according to the Labour leader

himself, are inevitable? We will hear from Stephen Twigg of labour.

As the stage version of War Horse enters its sixth year, we speak to

Michael Morpurgo about a film of another of his First World War

books, his personal favourite. First, over to Naga Munchetty for

the news. Good morning. What is billed as a

new approach to law and order will be the focus of David Cameron's

attempt to regain control of the political agenda this week. The

Prime Minister is expected to say that Britain needs a tough but

intelligent approach, including harsher sentences and

rehabilitation. It follows a difficult few days for Mr Cameron,

who has just seen his chief whip, Andrew Mitchell, resign. The former

Cabinet minister Lord Tebbit is the latest prominent figure to question

the Government's competence. Huge crowds are expected in Lebanon

for the funeral of the head of intelligence killed in a bomb

attack which many blame on Syria. He is thought to have been targeted

because he uncovered a Damascus led plot for bombings inside 11 on.

We want weapons, they chanted, Martin has the Prime Minister's

office in Beirut. Waving the flags of the country's the opposition

parties, they called on him to resign and declared their readiness

to fight. The demonstrators support the 14th March coalition, named

after the date of huge anti-Syrian protests seven years ago.

reason why we are all here in front of the government palace, the

Ministry, to tell the Ministry that we do not want them to rule any

more, we want a change. protesters went on to set up tents

and Martyrs' Square in the heart of the city centre. The square will be

the focus of expected mass protests during the funeral of the country's

intelligence chief. TRANSLATION: We came here today to repeat that we

are not leaving until the Syrian ambassador and his accomplices are

kicked back to Syria, we are here for the whole Lebanese nation.

place where the intelligence chief was killed on Friday is still

cordoned off by security forces. On Saturday, the Prime Minister

appeared to link the attack with an alleged Syrian plot which she

uncovered two months ago. The Prime Minister has been uncovered --

criticised for failing to respond to the attack. Many ministers in

his government have links to Syria. Over the past 40 years, and ends in

Syria often had bloody echoes in London on as militias fought proxy

wars on its streets. -- leader none. As the country becomes more

polarised, it once again stands on the brink.

The SNP deputy leader, Nicola Sturgeon, will close the party's

conference in Perth later. In a speech, she will urge George

Osborne to pump more cash into projects such as roads, schools and

hospitals. Critics say the Scottish government must share some

responsibility for the performance of the economy there.

The brother of a woman hit by a hit and run driver in Cardiff as a

tribute to her bravery. Karina Menzies was one of 14 people struck

by a ban on Friday afternoon. 831 year-old man is being questioned on

suspicion of murder. -- a 31-year- old man.

A speeding white van used in a way of violence. CCTV images show the

driver making his way through the streets of Cardiff. A 31-year-old

man is still being questioned by police on suspicion of murder.

Flowers have been arriving all weekend in memory of Karina Menzies,

the 32-year-old mother who was killed after being hit by the full

force of the van. Basically, he went through the traffic, aimed for

them, and just hit them head on, and then he reversed over there, I

cannot believe it. Was she trying to shelter the children? Well, yeah,

she just screamed and threw them out of the way as much as she could,

you know, so he's still clipped them, but she took it head on. She

saved their lives, basically, she did, she saved their lives. Later

today, a special church service will take place here not far from

one of the crime scenes, giving members of this community an

opportunity to reflect on events that many have found bewildering.

think particularly those are witnesses that have seen children

lying on the ground, being attended to, they have been really

traumatised by that, just the sight of it, you know, and the fact that

somebody seems to have deliberately targeted women and children, it is

just incomprehensible, really. Detectives have asked the community

to work with them to piece together what led to these crimes. A team of

over 70 officers are now working on Nearly 500 Roman Catholic pilgrims

have been rescued from the town of Lourdes in France after a river

burst its banks. The grotto is said to be the site where the Virgin

Mary appeared to a 14-year-old girl in the year 1858. Officials say the

blooding is the worst they had seen for 25 years and has left large

parts of the shrine and surrounding town completely inaccessible.

Well, that is all from me for now, I'll be back with the headlines

just before 10 o'clock, so back to Andrew.

Thank you very much. The Sunday Telegraph, the MPs travelling first

class on expenses, 180 of them have been claiming first-class expenses,

although when you read the story, it turns out that is where the

tickets are cheaper than standard class for there would have been.

Our lot about the BBC, the Sunday Mirror, BBC star rape attack,

another anonymous BBC star alleged to have tried to rape a dancer. A

lot of that kind of stuff in the papers today. The Sunday Times here,

a general story, Tory alarm over Number Ten meltdown, complaints

over people they described as teenagers in Downing Street, not

able to get a grip. The Independent on Sunday, the great British Energy

Report, that is about monopolies up and down the country. -- rip-off.

The observer has Norman Tebbit, a Tory grandee, it says, in assault

on his dog of a government. I do not know that is really a grandee,

he is a lord, but a grandee is a different thing. The Mail on Sunday,

the new-style coming out from the Prime Minister, they say. Dan Snow,

Shami Chakrabarti, welcome to. have got to talk about Savile,

because these gamble becomes more bizarre, it has more and more

assets to it, and it is all over the papers today. -- the scandal.

The new twist I am particularly horrified by is the suggestion that

Jimmy Savile was somehow put in charge of a task force overseeing

Broadmoor Hospital in the 1980s. Now, of course, that has some very

dangerous people in it, but also some incredibly vulnerable people

in it, and interestingly this was at a time when Ken Clarke was the

Health Secretary and Edina Currie was a health minister, we are told,

but Ken Clarke is currently taking a bill through Parliament that

would allow ministers to close down the court proceedings that would be

looking at just this kind of scandal, so I am a little bit

troubled by that. This comes back to the question of what his

knowledge. A lot of people did not hear the rumours, were they have

got to ministers? Did they know what kind of a man Jimmy Savile

might have been? I do not know, and clearly this has to be investigated,

but we have to think about the checks and balances that may or may

not have been mayor. He was a celebrity who raised a lot of money

for charity, but does that make him an appropriate person to have a

free run over these hospitals and vulnerable people? Speaking of

appropriate people, the Daily Mail has an eviscerating attack on the

BBC over its Savile staff. It is talking about the report are doing

the Panorama looking into some of the Savile staff, saying that he

has personal links, linked to one of the schools which Savile

allegedly behaved in appropriately at, so the Daily Mail getting a few

blows in. It feels to me that this has to be seen in the context of

Leveson on the horizon, and some parts of the press are taking the

opportunity to really pile into the BBC. And there is a loss to pile

into about, and indeed the BBC is, in a sense, Panorama versus

Newsnight is going to be very interesting tomorrow. With all

great institutions, and we need great institutions in a democracy,

they rest on trust, and the BBC is one of the most trusted brands in

the country, like the NHS and the military and so on. Ace Campbell

like this does have to be tested and probe. -- a scandal. You have

chosen one of the many Conservative... Tory troubles again

are everywhere this weekend, and I have picked out the Lord Tebbit

piece that you mentioned, whether he is a grandee or not, he has gone

in very, very hard. Interestingly, he says the problem is not that the

government is full of tops. He says that nobody would mind them being

toxic they just went to the hard Right Hon immigration, law and

order, and so on. That is his advice. -- the hard right on the

immigration. Of course, it is a coalition government, as he himself

acknowledges. More on that, I find myself slightly confused by these

stories, but the more you read into it, the more fascinating they

become. George Osborne has tried this trick before, the Sunday

Mirror has found that, sitting in first class. I do not understand it,

it appears that he paid for the upgrade, which is OK. This is a bit

more dodgy, because he repaid -- refused to pay for the upgrade and

was moved to Standard Class, which is an altogether different story,

and there is a picture of the inspector who treats everybody the

same, a great British democratic story. Yes, wonderful. This is

almost in response to Lord Tebbit, as if the Government read his mind,

I suppose, because we have got the Daily Mail, Cameron, it is time to

my gay hoodie. Remember tough on crime, tough on the causes of

crime? We are told that the new slogan, a new tougher, law and

order strategy will be tough but intelligent. The problem with this,

under Tony Blair as well, a new policy has brought out, and that

the same time the spin is that it is in a response to a political

problem, so nobody will concentrate on the policy if it is therefore a

practical purpose, so you undermine it by announcing it. One of the

things that looks particularly mad which is murdered on the front page

of the Daily Mail is possibly axing the custom of prisoners �46 in cash

when they are freed from jail. -- mooted. What is the alternative,

give them nothing and send them straight out? It is absolutely

deranged, the policy and the timing. The idea that you can lurch to the

right to try to cover up tactical mistakes, but that is how we are

running criminal justice in our society, that is completely

deranged. Foreign policy, foreign news, a lot of coverage and really

good coverage and good writing about the American election, which

could not be closer all stop it could not be closer. If you are a

massive American election he, like I am, this will be very exciting,

47% each, incredibly polarised country, reflected right across

both houses of Congress and the presidency itself. It looks like it

could be as close at the famous election in 2000, which George Bush

won even though he got the will votes than Al Gore. Romney has got

momentum, that is what people are saying, but Obama is fighting back

and is just ahead in some of the key states. The money that is being

spelt, something like $3 billion across the different races. And a

lot will hang on that last debate, the commentators saying that Romney

has got what they call a glass jaw, he gets very easily riled, and

He is now backtracking on abortion, trying to win the key demographic

of the women's vote, very tactical. Also trying to win women's votes.

You have chosen a story we haven't mentioned so far about phones.

would, because we learn there is a police practice of arresting people

on suspicion of whatever and taking their phones and downloading the

information on those phones before perhaps not charging the person and

sending them on their way. This is really troubling and I can't see

any obvious legal basis for this practice. It ties in with another

toff authoritarian policy, which is that the coalition government is

currently looking at legislation that would allow the authorities to

scoop what our e-mails, where activity, frankly whether we have

been arrested on not, and keep it just in case we turn out to be a

suspicious person later on. The technology moves apace, and I think

sometimes the ethical thinking does not keep up. We were told before

the last election the Conservative Party would be the party of Liberty,

and they would think sensibly about criminal justice, locking up fewer

people, and interestingly both of those key policies have been

eradicated. How the Lib Dems feel about this, I don't know. It is an

opportunity for Ed Miliband to take that ground bark for Labour.

have been to Lebanon and indeed Syria, that was for your book and

your series on castles and so on. An enormous part of history has

just been blown to smithereens apart from the horror of massacres

going on. Referring to the fact there was a born in Beirut

yesterday, absolutely tragic. This country has on the verge of being

torn apart by another sectarian war. People are being killed day to day

and it is terrible. I was in London and looking at things like Beaufort

Castle which were terribly badly damaged by war in 2006. Aleppo, one

of the finest sites anywhere in the world, has been damaged. The castle

is being used as a base by armed rebels and it is just a tragic on a

human level of the day with the killing, but also so important the

value of this heritage that is being lost in this part of the

world. Let's come back home, and a national treasure? Perhaps you are

referring to this rather attractive picture of Clare Balding in the

Mail on Sunday. Underneath it, there this the Battle of the talent

shows because this time of the year it is of course the Broadcasting

battle. X-factor versus Strictly Come Dancing, and good news for the

BBC - they are winning this particular battle. Do you watch

these things, genuinely? I am a great fan of X-factor, it is

wonderful escapism in the winter. You know a little bit about

scheduling and you're up against Downton Abbey at the moment. People

will have to make their choice. That is enough looking for me.

story is about corporate tax avoidance, �15 million of unpaid

tax, that is involving either way. I think corporate tax avoidance,

individual tax avoidance is very serious book corporate tax

avoidance really threatens to undermine the social contract.

These big companies get a lot of support from the state, stuff they

need in order to make this money, and really the whole argument for

capitalism comes to the idea that pumping money back into the state,

and these stories are incredibly damaging. Were have covered a great

deal. That was very comprehensive, thank you.

We have had biblical deluges and sunshine in the last few days. What

It is dense fog across large areas this morning but it will clear and

many people will see sunshine. We also have this stripped of cloud

that has been bringing rain to the south-eastern corner and will

continue to do so into the afternoon. The fog will clear

eventually, many of the north- western parts enjoying sunshine in

the afternoon. Temperatures up to 12, 13 degrees with light wind so

it is quite pleasant. It stays pretty damp for East Anglia and the

south-east of England, the cloud extending across much of the

Midlands and South Eastern Counties. That breaks up as you get towards

the coast of Devon and Cornwall so a little bit of sunshine here. The

best weather in Wales out towards Cardigan Bay, a pleasant afternoon

here, and in Northern Ireland it is broken cloud and sunny spells, not

If Labour win the next election and the shadow education secretary

Stephen Twigg become Secretary of State, he will inherit an education

system that has been remodelled by Michael Gove. GCSEs will be

reformed, hundreds more academies will have arrived, more free

schools and the pace is rapid so would Labour try to overturn these

changes give they came into power? Stephen Twigg is with me now -

welcome. Let's start with the structure of schools, large numbers

of academies now, and free schools as well. Will these schools be

welcome? Would you like to see more of them? The previous Labour

governments started the Academy's programme but Arab bird was

completely different, it was about improving schools that were

underperforming, particularly in areas of economic need. The only

good things that are happening in education are in academies and free

schools and there are plenty of other schools that are great. I

would take a different approach that would be less focused on the

name on the gate and more focused on celebrating excellence in our

schools. Given that it has been such an important thing, you

initially said you were relaxed about more academies and free

schools. You seem less relaxed now. Are you saying that under Labour

the government would not be rolling forward more of this? I want good

schools in every neighbourhood and you get good schools that are

academies and good schools that are not. The reason I said I was

relaxed his because what matters most is the quality of the teaching.

Academies do that, but so do schools which are not academies.

What about the future for schools which have freedom to move a little

bit away from the national curriculum, have freedom to

organise themselves different, without local authority involvement.

Do you welcome that? I am still confused. I spoke about this at the

Labour Party conference because I think there are freedoms that

should be extended to all schools. Some academies have adopted a

longer school day and I don't see any reason why other schools should

not be able to do that if they want to. Low call authorities who want

to take back control of academies, of free schools, under Labour would

they be able to? If no one is arguing law -- local authority

should control schools. You know what I am talking about, that the

local education authority control, will that be extended under Labour?

It is not about extending local authority controls, it is about

schools working together to local level including working with their

local authority. Today 90% of schools are not academies and yet

we have a government with nothing to say about the excellent work

happening in those schools. I am still confused as to whether you

will be extending academies, or reducing them. I think it is the

wrong question and the number of interviews... I think this is the

wrong question. None the less it is the question I must go in. I am

going to allow local authorities to have more of the say and parents to

have more of the say it about schools in their area. It might be

about academies, but it might or of -- might also be about new schools

coming through. We are having many new free schools being established

which are half-empty. So some of the powers that academies currently

have will be taken back in some cases and go back to local

authorities? It is not about taking powers away from schools. There are

certain freedoms which should apply to all schools, but there are also

certain entitlement parents should be able to expect whatever the type

of school so I would say requirements on school fruit which

currently don't apply to academies and free schools, those

requirements should extend. Nobody wants to go back to local

authorities run in schools, it is about schools working well together.

Examinations, and the reform of the A-level may well be in place by the

time of the next general election. Are those reforms welcome and

secure under Labour? The not told them and we had a fiasco this year

in terms of the GCSE English grading. I have been in Southampton,

Leeds and Anfield where there has been a big issue. We need to get

trust in the exam system now before we talk about reform. Having won

national board in charge of everything as Michael Gove suggests

would be one way of getting round that plan. That makes sense, but

what doesn't make sense is moving back to purely linear exams that

take no account of course work a student doors. -- does. I do not

concerned course work and modules have resulted in a softer system?

The attempt is to produce something more rigorous, that is what Michael

Gove at once. I want rigour, but I want rigour of the future and not

of the past. I -- for example, speaking and listening skills are

vital in this country. If you move back to linear exams, you don't

assess them. The ability to work consistently is really important so

yes let's have a rigorous exams but also rigorous course work. On the

march in London yesterday, Ed Miliband talked about cuts being

necessary and he was roundly booed for that. Was it an important

moment in his leadership that he is able to say we are going to cut

budgets to large number of trade unions, a Tony Blair moment? It was

a very brave speech. I was on the march with nurses and teachers and

others and it was only a small section of the crowd that booed him.

What about your message to the National Union of Teachers? What

would you say to them that they might not like to hear? Teacher

morale is at an all-time low with Michael Gove and I want to work

with them but I won responsibilities as well as rights.

If the teacher is not up to the job, they should not be in the classroom.

That is a tough message and the unions should be supporting me in

saying that because it is about the best teaching in our schools.

The BBC faces its greatest challenge since the hot an inquiry

over the Jimmy Savile offer. Tomorrow Panorama will be

broadcasting its investigation into how the story has been handled and

on Tuesday the BBC director general will be questioned by MPs.

Allegations that it has allowed child abuse on its promises are

just about the most serious that can be made against any

organisation. This is now wide ranging criminal investigation. I

am joined by Greg Dyke and Esther Greg Dyke, you have been through a

huge BBC crisis. What is your advice now? I have some sympathy

with George, who turns up in the job and this happens three weeks

later. He has not had that background and experience. My

advice is, keep your nerve, try to be consistent, discuss with your

colleagues, keep them on site, and try to go through it. It is like

all stories, in the end this will fade away for a while, because all

stories do. What you do not want to be seen to do is keep changing your

position all the way through. Esther Rantzen. Or covering up,

always the problem is caused by a cover-up. It sort of out does the

original crime in the anger it produces, so stay transparent.

is a pretty odd thing, some might say, to have one BBC programme,

Panorama, unleashed to go after another BBC programme, Newsnight.

Well, it is important, actually. What it means is, when you say and

leashed, you think it has been unleashed from the top, but that is

not the way the BBC works. The editorial power, who makes the

decisions about these programmes is a long way down the organisation,

and it normally stays with the editor, which he should do, because

if someone at the top says, we can do that and not that, it would be

vastly too powerful, and that is not what happens. The editor of

Panorama will have decided to do this show tomorrow night, and as a

result it will be his decision, and a lot of people in the organisation

will not like it, but it is the decision that he made. What I would

say to you, since leaving the BBC, one of the hardest things is to

stop the people in Newsnight and Panorama trying to kill each other.

And now they have a perfect opportunity, it is a fraternal

organisation, isn't it, with his atmosphere?! It always has been,

but the focus is drifting away from where it should be, and that is how

difficult it is for children and adults to talk about what has

happened to them and be listened to and believed. I think what has

happened with Newsnight happened to me when we investigated a school

which was found by a multi- millionaire paedophile. The law is

said to us, you must have enough evidence. Now, we had to have five

separate statement from boys as well as witness statements before

we could transmit, and I should be fascinated to know, and I do not

know whether Panorama will tell us this, just how much evidence in

Newsnight have, because if they had enough, they should have gone with

it. But in the end, as I understand it, the decision was taken by the

editor of Newsnight because he felt he did not have another. And you

are dead right, you need a lot of evidence before you do it. I mean,

it was strange that Newsnight was doing this sort of story, actually,

because new knight is a daily programme without the resources to

do big in-depth investigations. -- Newsnight. They have a look that

child abuse before very effectively, and I would be very sorry... I took

part in the ITV documentary, and they certainly had enough evidence,

and I would be sorry to think that Newsnight had less. And I do worry

about why the BBC decided not to transmit that documentary, although

you would say it was not the BBC, it was Newsnight. I would be very

surprised if it was anyone other than the editor of Newsnight, and

the conspiracy theory is that somehow someone at the top said, do

not do that. Well, I can tell you, if someone says that, they do it

and if they do not do it, it gets leaked to everybody in the world.

Which is what has happened. wear editor in chief, the number

one potato at the top, so did you never, on occasion, sent down the

directives to do something or not do something? You sometimes say,

this is an interesting story to look at. I cannot ever remember

saying, you should not do that. Unless your lawyers for your

editorial policy people are saying, I do not think this stands up.

would be horrified if anyone in the organisational hierarchy set lay-

off, this is embarrassing, do not pursue this. You cannot imagine the

circumstances, but if it happened... Have if it happened, I do not think

that person will survive, but I do not believe it happened, it is not

the culture of the organisation. Partly because of ChildLine, and

the atmosphere has changed quite a lot, and people are much more

sensitised to this, but you think it has really changed, because at

some level we seem to be obsessed with the death earlier in this

country -- with paedophilia in this country, but perhaps quite rightly

because vast numbers of institutions seem touched. Well,

Savile was a predatory paedophile. When we launched ChildLine in 1986,

I was told that a paedophile commits 1,000 offences against one

child, if it is in his family, or against 1,000 different children,

so I am not a bit surprised at the numbers that have come forward.

you have any indication at all during the ChildLine years of what

a monster Savile was? No, and that is my biggest regret, because if a

child had disclosed, people could have acted, and if they did not act,

it is entirely reprehensible. There were rumours but no disclosure from

a child or an adult survivor that I know about until after his death,

and that is a big regret. It underscores for me how difficult it

is. Greg Dyke, do think it is conceivable... It is odd that over

20 or more years so many BBC managers were involved with Savile,

all the way up and down, and nobody knew? It is pretty odd. I am not in

a position to know that. I was not at the BBC in those years, but I

did know... Bill Cotton was head of entertainment for many years, a

revered figure, and I cannot believe that Bill Cotton knew.

there were rumours, and there were rumours at my junior level, and we

know that at one stage the boss of Radio 1 actually called Savile in

to confront him with the rumours. What you do without a child's

disclosure or a witness statement, when a man just denies it and goes

on his merry way, and becomes a national figure of such importance,

way beyond the BBC, do you know, 88 This Is Your Life on him at Thames,

I wonder what they are net. -- that they did. There were allegations,

and he said it would cost Stoke Mandeville �2 million, which is

what I will raise this year of. of the things the BBC does with a

big crisis is panic, turn in on itself, go through spasms and

mayhem of the height of the Hatton inquiry, we both remember very well.

Is the same thing in danger of happening now. --? The the BBC made

two early mistakes. The first statements about this were not

strong enough and were not saying, this is a really serious issue

which needs to be examined. It is not enough to say, we looked in our

files, so that was a mistake. The second one was, when they started

saying that the Newsnight programme was not run for editorial reasons,

editorial reasons, you needed to explain exactly what that was. Why

did the editor of Newsnight decide this was not a strong enough

programme to be broadcast? Now, I suspect he did not think the

evidence was strong enough, but someone needed to say that, and

nobody did. A thank you both very much indeed.

Michael Morpurgo was one of our most prolific and popular

children's writers, a former children's Laureus no less. His

book walls, adapted for the stage, captivated audiences and inspired

Steven Spielberg's screen version of earlier this year. Set amid the

horrors of World War I, the play is now celebrating its 5th birthday

this month at the New London Theatre. It has transferred to

Broadway and won several prestigious awards. Michael

Morpurgo joins me now. One of the funny things about warhorse is, you

know, you published it, it sold a modest number of copies, and life

went on. Very modest! It was really the stage version that turned it

into this huge hit. Yes, a man called Tom Morris picked up the

idea that this could be a wonderful vehicle for extraordinary

puppeteers, with whom he had worked at the Battersea Arts Centre. I

think he wanted their work to be centre-stage at the National

Theatre. And so he rang me up and said, we want to make a plate with

puppets, and I said to him, I did not think it was a very good idea,

because our birds for me were pantomime for this -- because

puppets for me were pantomime horses. But he sent me a DVD of a

giraffe, walking across a studio floor, and these three people work

giraffe, making giraffe, and they brought tears to your eyes. I have

no idea why, this magic, this is what they brought to the horse, and

that is what he brought to the story. You are a very prolific

author, and in a lot of your books two things are going on,

confronting children with heart things. You have written about the

Palestinian issue, are not about the war, the First World War. But

there also seems to be a sense, we have talked a lot about indecency

this morning, but there is a sense of English decency or nostalgia for

a rural decency that comes through in your books a lot. I'm not sure

it is nostalgia. I was brought up in a gentler age, and that seems

ridiculous to say after the dreadful times of the Second World

War, but certainly it was clear then what was right and what was

wrong. I think children have a yearning for that. I think they do

have a sense of fair play, what is fair and right, and they can see

sadness. The trouble is, it comes into their sitting rooms dull time.

It never did when we were young, we played out, we did not see pictures

of coffins coming home from Afghanistan and Iraq. They see that

and ask questions. They are easily wounded, I think, easily touched.

You have got a film just about to come out of a book which I think

you have said is one of your favourites, Bond On Bond, which is

another tough story, -- private Peaceful. It is about someone being

shot for alleged cowardice. It is my fictional story of 300 men who

were shot, some of whom just fell asleep on duty. I read a letter to

one of the mothers of these unfortunate soldiers, and I was so

touched by it, angered by the injustice of that I thought I would

write about one of them. We can have a look at the film. What the

hell is the matter with you lot?! You send us out, watch the machine

guns cut us down! Are you disobey my orders?! Are you disobeying my

order! He cannot walk, he is wounded! I want all your men are on

your feet now all it is a court martial, do you hear me?! We have

got the anniversary, the centenary of the First World War coming up in

a couple of years' time, and it seems that this has become the

defining experience of the modern British, it is the thing we tend to

again and again and again, more so than the Second World War, more so

than 1940 and the Spitfires. Why do you think that is? I think it is

because the people who grew up after the Second World War are

interpreting it that way. I grew up with those great poets in my head,

and so that was the war that seems to represent all wars to me growing

up. And then they lost an ankle in the Second World War, which

reinforced the sense of the continuing grieving. -- and then I

lost an uncle. But what we cannot get away from is that it goes on

today. There was an almost when we almost put wall behind us during

the Cold War, saying, that is all over, but we do now see the coffins

coming home, so this First World War, when 10 million soldiers died,

nearly one million from this country, the play of all wars and

the book, when the horse gets caught in the wire, and it rears up

and screens, it is a primal scream of all this against the injustice,

what's Ted Hughes called the huge senselessness of war. You have got

a new book out about the First World War, a very unusual story of

a black British officer. Yes, I discovered this extraordinary man,

Lieutenant Walter Tull, and it is inspired by his life. He was the

first British black officer, he should not have been an officer, it

was a mistake, because he was not allowed to be an officer and black

in the First World War. You have to be of European descent.

fascinating story, thank you very much for joining us.

It has been a big week in Scotland, and perhaps for the entire UK, with

the agreement on the terms of an independence referendum. There will

be a straightforward yes or no question, but exactly what

independence would mean is rather more complicated. Details about the

currency, how the economy would be run, membership of the EU have all

got to be worked out. First Minister Alex Salmond has two years

to make his case, and he joins me now from the SNP conference in

Good morning. I am actually been the Royal Geographical Centre in

Perth. Let's talk about your job over the next few years because the

polls show a substantial majority to maintain the Union - how will

you shift that? We were told we were 25% behind, but this morning

that gap has been reduced to 8%. Indeed it becomes for cent if

people think there will be a Labour government at the next election.

11% if people think there will be another Tory government at the next

election. It means it is all to play for, Game On, but lower sums

substantial indication that the momentum lies with our campaign.

Let's talk about some of the specifics, starting with defence.

Your party conference has voted to stay in NATO in an independent

Scotland, and some people would say on the other hand you are against

nuclear weapons and would make that a constitutional requirement, and

therefore there is something rather hypocritical on using the NATO

Shield but not been part of it. out of the 28 member states and

non-nuclear countries so if that is hypocritical so are many others.

Nobody seriously believes Scotland is a country of 5 1/4 million

people that would want to be in possession of nuclear weapons. That

would be a bad thing for Scotland and for nuclear proliferation

across the world. Our position is unconditional. What we do say

however, because we have substantial indications that our

friends and allies want co- operation that we would be happy to

be a friend of NATO. I wasn't suggesting Scotland have its own

nuclear submarine, but the reason I am interested in this... What are

you suggesting? The nuclear base is very important to the current

Trident, and the cost of moving Trident would be prohibitively

expensive so either they can have some kind of agreement with you to

keep the Trident base in Scotland open in at Guantanamo Bay style

least back arrangement or that his curtains for Trident. That would be

far better to be curtains for Trident. They could either

relocated to another facility or alternatively they could use the

nuclear facilities in America or France. Trident is effectively an

American weapon. Alternatively of course they could decide on a much

better policy which would be to decommission the weapons system but

that would be a matter for the London government. That doesn't

mean we are going to be amenable to lease out part of Scottish

territory in what you describe as a Cyprus situation. You're quite

right that the SNP proposal would be to write that into the

constitution of the state so that would make the possession of

nuclear weapons illegal in Scotland, but that is a perfectly reasonable

choice for any country to make and the idea there there are no choices

for the government is ridiculous. What is the problem with stationing

the Trident system elsewhere? way or another, if Scotland becomes

independent, the system of basing Trident submarines in Scottish

waters is over, will never come back, and that is clear and can't

be revised? That is clear from an SNP point of view. That would be

the policy of the SNP. We do say it in the motion that the removal of

Trident would be as soon as can safely be arranged because we will

not compromise anybody's safety in that matter. Let's move on to the

question of EU membership. A problematic one. You would expect

there to be presumably quite difficult negotiation with the rest

of the EU about the terms on which Scotland became an independent

member of the EU. Do you think there are circumstances in which

Scotland might not be a member of the EU? We are part of the European

Union and have been for 40 years. We would be negotiating our

opposition from within the context of the Union. There is a huge

amount of goodwill towards Scotland in the rest of the European Union.

If you asked people in the EU which part of these islands seems to be

hankering towards leaving the European Union, it is the southern

part of these islands. Every country which applies to join, and

this would be a new country there for applying to join, is obliged

also to be part of the euro and yet you don't want to be - why is that?

Let me dispute that Clemence of your question. There was a

difference between a country becoming a member state from inside

the European Union. You would be negotiating your position from

inside. It is not always the case that countries that have joined

have joined the euro, Sweden does not fulfil the requirements for the

euro of the in the exchange rate mechanism and the two things don't

follow. In terms of membership itself, when the facts change, you

change your mind. The Tories and certainly the Liberals were of in

favour of European membership, but the problems caused by the DoH

Virgin productivity between the southern tip of Greece and other

areas would mean it does not seem a sensible economic option, which is

why we have put forward the policy that we would retain membership of

the sterling area. Do you accept that would require some kind of

pact between an independent Scotland and the Bank of England, a

fiscal stability pact of some kind, an agreement on maximum amount of

borrowing, exactly the same kind of agreement that has caused tensions

in the eurozone? There was a lot of evidence that Scotland and England

would be an optimal currency area because the productivity in

Scotland and England is almost identical. Some of the tensions

that have existed in the eurozone would not exist in a Stirling's own,

but it is perfectly reasonable proposition. I don't accept this

idea that it will bind Scotland hand and foot. If you look at the

figures available for last year, it will still give you the flexibility

of the 2.7 billion relative surplus, the strongest position Scotland had

compared to England in 2010/2011. We could invest more, borrow less,

or combination of those. There is a very detailed argument about the

possible nature of the divorce when it comes to the money, when it

comes to the size of the debt and so on. There is a view among some

ministers in London, if Scotland votes to become independent, the

agreement must then be put to referendum of the whole of the UK.

How do you respond to that? Clause 30 in the Edinburgh agreement,

which was signed this week, and I accept in good faith from the

London government, that says the referendum will be decisive. The

result will be accepted and both governments will work in the best

interest of the people of Scotland and the UK. You regard a referendum

in England as a breach of good faith? I'm not sure which

referendum you are talking about but what the are -- what the

Edinburgh agreement... I think both countries have agreed the process,

agreed to accept the result and work in the best interests of the

people of Scotland and the UK. I will abide by the letter and the

spirit of that agreement. There is a big debate going on about

immigration and moment and the problems, so passport control the -

- between Scotland and England could not be ruled out, could it?

If I remember correctly, you are regular visitor to the Irish

Republic. I am quite certain you didn't take your passport the last

time you visited because you don't need it because we have been part

of a common travel area between Scotland, England and the Irish

Republic since before the Second World War. That common travel area

would continue if Scotland became independent. Of course the treaties

that established that and the Acts of Parliament would be inherited by

the Scottish government. David Cameron got his yes or no question,

you won in terms of the timing of the referendum and the process by

which that process will be agreed - did you put one over on him? It is

a very good agreement, I think. That is good the governments were

able to agree. I would prefer the Scottish Parliament to decide the

issue of whether there would be a second question, on the other hand

this is a referendum made and built in Scotland in terms of the process,

the timing, the franchise - or that will be decided in the Scottish

Parliament, as it should be. want to keep the Queen as the Queen

of Scotland. Do you think that will be the same when we get to King

Charles the third, or whatever he calls himself? Yes, I do. I am

certain that would be the case. Incidentally, I keep hearing the

SNP have changed our policy in the monarchy. We adopted a policy in

favour of the monarchy in 1934, before even I was in politics and

before you were commenting on it. Do you think the Queen would want

to stay as Queen of Scotland? think the BBC got in trouble

recently for trying to put words in the mouth of the majesty her queen.

I think she would be proud, as her ancestors were. As you are well

aware, it was James the sixth, King of Scots, who became the King of

England and it was 100 years in which Scotland and England had the

same monarch. I am sure her Majesty the Queen, and I certainly wouldn't

put words in her mouth - I am as well aware of history as you are.

Now the news headlines. The SNP leader has told this

programme a referendum on Scottish independence will be decisive and

the rest of the UK will not have the chance to vote. He said nuclear

submarines will be removed from Scottish waters if they win the

referendum. He claimed Scotland would not necessarily have the euro.

It former BBC director general has told this programme that if the BBC

manager had told Newsnight not to pursue the Jimmy Savile

investigation, it is hard to see how they could survive. He said the

organisation should hold its nerve against the scandal. We will get

back to Andrew in a moment, but firstly here is a look at what is

coming up after the programme. A major report this week says

cannabis should be decriminalised - should it? Should doctors ration