16/12/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Welcome to have the last show of the year. Normally I

would find something cheerful to greeted you whip but it is not

possible on a day when all of the papers are talking about mass

murder of 20 small children and six adults in America. After the

Snowdrop petition are gun laws were tightened up. In America the gun

lobby always says that guns don't kill people, people do, which seems

to pass over the obvious point that people with guns kill faster and

kill more people. Reviewing the Sunday newspapers, apps story and

plenty more, Amanda Platell and the actor, Richard Wilson. Towards the

end of 2012, it is important to remember the good things. We will

look back both to the Jubilee and the Olympics. We will have music

from the former while we will be hearing from the mayor of London,

Boris Johnson, about bottle and the Olympic spirit and applying it to

the greatest challenge facing the UK, which is getting growth in the

economy. He discusses Europe, his own future and mutant rats with

gooseberry eyes! More of that later. I did mention Dunblane and the

Snowdrop petition and we are joined by the man who brought in the

tightest restrictions on handguns, Labour's Jack Straw. We will hear

his advice to his successors on dilemmas from drugs policy to

intervention in Syria, and asked about those controversial rendition

runs as well. And then with hobbit fever gripping cinema-goers, I will

be talking to Sir Ian McKellen, Gandalf. But also one of the

greatest Shakespearean actors of our times, and shortly a television

sitcom star as well. Finally, the singers who serenaded the Queen on

a wet day on the Thames, now in warmer and drier surroundings.

# Deck the halls with balls of holly.

First the news. President Obama will travel to

Connecticut to visit the community of Newtown, left devastated by the

shooting. All 26 victims have been identified, 20 of them were

children aged 6 and 7. President Obama has pledged what he calls

meaningful action to tackle gun crime in America, although it is

not clear what that means. Emily Alison Park there was six.

She was a big sister and a cherished daughter. As the pain

settles into our hearts, we find comfort, reflecting on the

incredible person Emily was. And how many lives she was able to

touch on her short time on earth. She was bright, creative and very

loving. Robbie Parker was at work when he heard of the shooting. His

pain was matched with extraordinary compassion. Let us please keep the

sentiments of love we feel for our families and the compassion we feel

for others, even strangers. And keep them with us at all times. Not

just in times of sorrow and tragedy. And maybe we do this so we can

better all of our communities and all of our cities and states, we

can make everyone, everywhere in this country feel safe. Police

still don't know why 20-year-old, Adam Lanza, did what he did. Nor do

his own family. The family of Nancy Lanza share the grief of a

community and the nation as we struggle to comprehend a tremendous

loss we share. Our hearts and prayers are with those who share in

his last. The families, teachers, staff and students of Sandy Hook

Elementary School, the first responders and all of those touched

by this tragedy. On behalf of Nancy's mother and siblings, we

reach out to the community of Newtown and express our heartfelt

sorrow for the incomprehensible and profound loss of innocence that has

affected so many. All day, just outside the school, local families

have been coming to lay flowers, candles and even little teddy bears

in a makeshift memorial to those who were killed. They pause,

sometimes they pray, and all too often they cry. 26 white balloons,

one for each of the victims, one for little Emily.

Voting is taking place in Japan with the former Prime Minister,

Shinzo Abe voted out of power. The ruling Democratic Party led by

Yoshihiko Noda, has struggled to deliver on promises of more welfare

spending. The body of the nurse who

apparently killed herself after a hoax phone call about the Duchess

of Cambridge, is due to arrive in India for burial. Jacintha

Saldanha's remains are being escorted by her husband and

children to the city of Mangalore. She was found dead on 7th December

near the hospital in London, where the Duchess had been treated for

severe morning sickness. The Mastermind of the London

Olympics, Lord Coe, will be awarded the BBC BBC Lifetime Achievement

Award at the Sports personality achievement -- programme this

evening. A former Olympic gold medallist himself, he joins other

winners such as Pele, belong bog and so Steve Redgrave.

I will be back with the headline just before 10 am.

So too are paper review with Richard Wilson and Amanda Platell,

who I should say has had a horrible eye operation and has bravely and

undoubtedly come in anyway. I normally go through the front pages,

but actually there is just It is amazing how the different

newspapers have chosen to focus on. It is incredible trying to choose

among the tragedy and appalling human stories. Many have focused on

this teacher, he told the children to hide in the cupboard. And when

the shooter arrived, why don't they call him a murderer? When issue to

a ride, she shielded them. The Daily Telegraph showed all of the

teachers shot dead trying to save the children. For horror of school

mergers with victims' names. The Sunday Express, first edition. Very

tasteless. Then they change the fact that we learnt very later a

British charge was among the victims. The Sun newspaper is

saying, "burn in hell". The Independent, they do this

wonderfully. But the Sunday Mirror, caught with his pants down, the

story of a backbench MP who is having an affair. Nobody has ever

heard of him. No wonder they only sell a third of the copies of the

Sun newspaper. They do have a comment which has attracted Richard

Wilson's attention. This is from the Sunday Mirror. It is from the

head of the programme Second Amendment Foundation. There was

nobody in that school allowed a firearm. I find that deplorable. I

am sure Adam Lanza felt he could go in because he knew nobody had a gun.

If everybody is on... If the teachers were armed, he wouldn't

have done it. On the day of the killings, they did not know how

many children had been murdered. That is what they were saying. It

did to shoot -- if the teachers had guns. Will it make a difference?

will see, presumably a huge argument now which President Obama

has kicked off. The pro-gun lobby is formidable in America. That town

has one of the biggest groups of the pro-gun lobby in the country. I

did think President a banner's speech was brilliant. It it is the

finest beach at the time of the tragedy I have seen by a politician.

In the beginning he hinted something need to be done. The next

day, again. Pity he did not have the courage to raise it when he was

running for President. None of them would touch it. We will talk about

other stories, Boris Johnson, the subject of Europe and the word

referendum is mentioned. You have chosen something from the observed

or to kick us off on the subject? One thing that has happened is we

are having a debate on what would happen if Britain that the use. I

don't think David Cameron has any desire to do that. -- the EU.

Whether or not we would thrive like Norway. Or whether we were just

wither. Someone has said, we would have had no power, no influence and

we would still foot the bill. don't be like Norway. Richard, you

have chosen Nigel Farage? Yes, UKIP is officially the third party.

Nigel Farage is saying he is not homophobic but is supporting this

Polish group the things all gay people are sodomites. Sodomy aside,

I wonder if victim Aldro wouldn't be a UKIP support? I think he was a

liberal. He was not. He believed in community. It is an important story.

UKIP going ahead of the Lib Dems. No one thinks they will end up as

the third party when we have the next elections. But they will strip

the Tories of votes. There are so many people disenfranchised with

the Conservative Party, they won't vote Lib Dem or Labour, they will

vote UKIP. And this in the Mail on Sunday talking about gay marriage,

which is one of the problems, turning a lot of traditional

Conservatives off. 69% of people say the only reason David Cameron

is supporting it because he once trendy votes. Let's talk a bit

about the Labour Party. There is a cartoon I have noticed in the

Observer. A very good piece by Andrew Rawnsley. Could the Prime

Minister be a bit f r I t about facing Ed Miliband on the box. They

are debating the next election. There is a possibility we won't

have television debates in the next election? One of the headlines is,

Mr Miliband is the equal of Mr Cameron in the Commons. I think Ed

Miliband is doing well at Question Time now. He is much more confident.

He is improving. If David Cameron had any sense, he would say, get

them out of the way, I am not doing them. Have the round now, get it

out of the wave. Having watched Question Time as my job for many

years, watching Prime Minister's Questions turns me off. Why is

that? There is just so much silly stuff going on. I don't think any

of them do themselves a lot of good. We do not learn anything from it.

But this word, F r I t, I thought it was Scottish. It is Lincolnshire,

comes from Margaret Thatcher. That is why people in politics do not

use it. You are directing as much as anything else at the moment?

am an associate director at Sheffield. I am working at the Bush

Theatre at the moment. It is called straight, which is running for

another week. Do not tell UKIP! The other terrible story, is the

suicide of the nurse? We are starting to get more details about

these three letters she wrote. In one of them, she said she held the

DJ's responsible. This story is just so ghastly from start to

finish. Two beautiful teenage children without their mother at

Christmas. But there is a feeling... Surely they must have been

something else that was troubling her to make her take her life over

a stupid Hoax? Nothing divulged about Kate Middleton in the end. We

all knew she was sick. It is this thing about apportioning blame. You

cannot actually blame people for a consequence like that. The Pogues

may have been silly, it may have gone too far, it does not mean they

were responsible. -- the hoax. Richard, you have chosen the

profile from the Sunday Times, Maria Miller, the Culture

Secretary? She is having a terrible time of it at the moment. She has

her expenses if they're going on, where she claimed �90,000 of

taxpayers' money. That is being investigated. She does not fill me

with confidence in being in charge of the arts at a time when we

Her aid and Number Ten were putting pressure on the Daily Telegraph to

ghost doffed -- soft on the expenses story because she is

looking at Leveson. It is a crude threat. It doesn't take them long

to turn into bully-boy is, does it? It is absolutely appalling and she

is clearly incompetent. Did you think Jeremy Hunt was any better?

No! Final story, Amanda. Nelson Mandela. A much-loved man, 94 years

old. He has a terrible lung condition and a gallstone operation,

surrounded by his family. You can't help but think that if he was in a

Brit he would be stuck in a side room and left to die. I hope he has

a Happy Christmas. A thank you. I hope you do. Richard, your final

offering is a culinary one. Really, I'm so sick of Christmas, I'm

sorry! Yes, Victor! How baize can you get? -- based. All of the chefs,

their turkey recipes are under scrutiny. Delia comes top with 43.

A turkey is just a turkey. That is so not true, honestly! You can cook

them a million different ways. could talk about this all day, but

could talk about this all day, but we have to turn to another subject.

The freezing fog gave way to rain again, and the country's slowly

becoming a huge sticky grey puddle. So how's it looking for the build-

So how's it looking for the build- up to Christmas? Over to John

Hammond in the weather studio. Well, it is pretty soggy underfoot

and the rain will return in the middle part of the week, but just

for a while some sunshine to look forward to it. Most of us having a

fine and bright day. There are some showers around and you can see them

on the satellite picture. Clumps of cloud out west and it is the

western parts of the country which will catch most of the showers

today. They will move through quickly on the breeze. There's a

good chance that where you live you will avoid most of the showers. The

driest weather will be on the eastern side of the country. Mid-

afternoon, a scattering of showers in the West, but large expanses of

dry weather with some sunshine. In the sunshine, not feeling too bad.

There will be some heavy showers towards western areas and along the

south coast. For London it should stay largely dry. Looking ahead to

Mundon, a showery start to the des. Some lingering fog patches. Showers

will diminish out west later in the afternoon. It should be a dry day

on Tuesday and then the rain and wind return on Wednesday. I'm

wind return on Wednesday. I'm afraid it is a mixed prospect in

the run-up to Christmas. Back to you.

Her mixture of squelch and drip! The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson,

seems to be feeling quite satisfied with life at the end of 2012. A

year in which he was re-elected for a second term and cheered by the

Olympic crowds - in contrast to some of his senior Conservative

colleagues. As the Prime Minister remarked, he even turned getting

stuck on a zipwire into something of a PR triumph. When we talked a

couple of days ago, I asked him if he could bottle the Olympic spirit

and channel it into another great national project, what would that

be? Aviation, immediately. The Olympics showed what the public and

private sector can do when they work together, when they are brave,

when they view this country as a great country, something we can be

proud of and that we can do extraordinary things. I think we've

got a looming crisis, a crisis that is already upon us in our aviation

capacity. We could sort it out with boldness and vision. You mentioned

aviation, what about some of the huge economic problems? We've got

to get the economy going again. biggest thing you could do for

Londoners at the moment is build hundreds of thousands of new homes.

Since I've been Mayor of London, in the last four years, the city has

acquired another 600,000 people. It is not all down to me! It is a

stunning comment on the popularity of London. London is the motor for

the UK economy. They have to live somewhere. Yes, and they have to be

able to get around the city. This year has been wonderful for brand

London. When I went to India recently, it was noticeable that

people thought what a fantastic place. You had software companies,

IT companies, hotels, wanting to invest here. Lower taxes, as you

pointed out. That is one of the ingredients. I've made a point

about access for talented people to the London market. But we do have a

problem with visas. Some of the signals we've sent out have been a

bit negative. Of course we must crackdown on illegal immigration

and Labour was completely wrong to open the floodgates in 2004 and to

fail to grip the problem and everybody understands that. But

loads of the people I talk to, the number one issue among Indian

business people is, are you hostile to us coming to London? What do you

make of the signals sent by the government? A sense that a

drawbridge is being closed. If this argument that immigration is

responsible for an increase in house prices, I want to look at an

aspect of that proposition. It is certainly true that if you look at

the London market, property values are very much driven by the

confidence of inward investors in this city who come to buy houses

here... The French and the Italians and Russians and Chinese. All of

the refugees from the terror... All of the people fleeing across the

Channel, they are investing in London. It is not sensible to say

that property value, we should keep people out or keep rich investors

out of our domain in order to allow property values to decline. That

would lead to a fall in the equity of everybody in their property, in

the City, and for the life of me I can't see the economic logic.

turn to the eurozone and what you've been saying about an in-out

referendum of some kind for the British people. As I understand it,

what you want is a really serious renegotiation of our relationship

with the rest of the EU to give us a single market style relationship

and then to put that to a referendum. Yes. They are

laboriously keeping their counsel alive while the patient's health

deteriorates further. For GDP of Greece has gone down 10% since we

were last here. Unemployment is soaring in Spain and Greece and

other Mediterranean countries. It is a tragedy. What we should say to

them is, OK, you go on with that project, you keep going with your

efforts to sustain the single currency, you create this fiscal

union, absolutely fine. We can't stop you, we don't approve, we

don't support it, but we can't stop you. You walk Court of Cameron and

Osborne for sounding enthusiastic. -- you are critical. It is wrong to

be enthusiastic. It is not democratic, it is not in the

interests of the people of Europe to take away their right to vote

for the people who set their taxes. What they are deciding to do is to

create a single policy based more or less in Brussels... That stifles

all of the national or local democracy in your view? Yes. They

are being kept on a gold standard over which they will have less and

less control. In my view, they are compounding the problem. We should

say, OK, we are good Europeans so we will let you do that if that is

your wish, but what we would like in return for our consent to you're

using EU institutions on this project which we think his

misguided, we would like a new relationship. What most people in

this country want it is the single market, the Common Market. A lot of

people will understand the attraction of it, but you must

admit it is a gamble. They might say no. Therefore it is a

negotiation you can only go into honestly if you are prepared to

walk away at the end and say, if we can't get the Europe we want, we

are prepared to leave. Correct. Absolutely correct. I happen to

think, by the way,... I don't think that is necessarily the end of the

world. Don't forget that 50 years ago, the entire CBI, British

industry, the City, everybody was proffer sizing that there would be

a gigantic Newton rats with gooseberry eyes swarming out of

gutters in the so it to chew the faces of the remaining British

bankers. We didn't... It is not my preferred option. My preferred

option is for us to stay in there... For how long do you think the

endlessly promised referendum... can't. To a certain extent, this is

now driven by the feeling that a lot of people have that it was 1975

when the people were first put a clear proposition about Europe and

it is a long time ago. Lots of other countries have had

referendums on this exceeding treaties. How long? We've never had

a popular vote since 1975 on Europe. I would like to be able to campaign

for the single market and a withdrawal from a lot of the

nonsensical policies. I think most people at... For how long can it be

postponed? I can't believe the government will do it this term. It

would be a good idea if they did it before 2015, but I can't see it.

All apparently will be revealed in a speech that his forthcoming.

as the voice... Reason. For the financial centre of this country, I

was going to say, what is your take on these huge companies, Google,

Amazon, Starbucks, who have avoided paying almost any corporation tax?

It is difficult. You can't exactly blame the finance directors of

these companies for doing their job. All of the tax lawyers. Their

salaries, their livelihoods, depend on minimising the tax exposure and

obligations of their companies. If there's some way of parking all

their profits in Luxembourg or wherever and their bike at

minimising their tax exposure, you can't blame them. You could change

the arrangements, the government could change the arrangement.

should they? If possible, yes. What I don't think you can do is keep

beating them up. Starbucks, the other day, wrote a cheque for �20

million. Everybody is now sneering and saying �20 million doesn't

begin... My any feeling is that if companies are going to show

corporate responsibility and they are going to contribute to wider

society, you should not see it -- sneer at them. You either sorted

out... That is for politicians to do. You are the most popular

Conservative politician in the country. I don't know. According to

the polls! What are you going to do to help your party win between now

and 2015. I will campaign for a Conservative victory relentlessly

at in the coming years. I think we will win. I tell you why. I think

that my all schoolmate, Ed Miliband, we went to the Thain primary school,

they made a huge mistake in putting all of their chips, their political

chips, on the square marked economic gloom, failure, but in

going down. Their entire pitch to the people is that things are going

to get worse. The minute... I think there will be a recovery. I am not

as gloomy as some people about the UK. I think the UK it is great. At

the minute -- the minute people's confidence returns, they will say

to Ed Balls and Ed Miliband, you crashed the car, we seem to have

got out of the ditch at last, we are back on the road, why would we

give the keys back to you? If there was any suggestion, a campaign to

get you back into the House of Commons, if your sainted brother

said listen, Boris, have my seat... Joseph Johnson! That will not

happen. If the trumpet sounds, it will you not respond? And no.

got 3 1/2 more years as Mayor of London. You're absolutely going to

stick to that under all circumstances? Yes. We did a great

Olympics, seriously, it was a great year for the City, but there's more

that needs to be delivered and we need to show we can get value from

that night �0.3 billion and we will. The Olympic investments will be

transformed a tree of huge chunks of East London. I want to be there

to make sure we get it right. I think we can and I think people

will be piling into London for And Now, there are stars of stage

and there are stars of screen. Sir Ian McKellen was already a

theatrical knight before Hollywood beckoned. Now he's famous all over

the world as Gandalf in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, which had its

London premiere last week. Sir Ian joined fellow stars and royalty on

the special green carpet in London's West End. He said it felt

proper to celebrate the film in London, given the author, and a

large part of the cast, were British. It will eventually form

part of a trilogy. Sir Ian is with me now. Good morning. A trilogy,

out of what I recall a little book? Miraculous, isn't it? I thought we

were making two films which was a little bit questionable. On the

last day of shooting, Peter Jackson, the director, said it will be

turned into three. I am sure the finances thought, great, 13 why

not? Peter Jackson wouldn't do anything to sully his reputation as

a serious director. It is not cashing in, but it is an awful lot

of what used to be called celluloid per page? In the book, it is the

beauty of literature. Talking can, in half a page, described it battle.

The cinema is a clumsy way of describing a battle. It takes

longer than it does to read about it. From your point of view, apart

from the burden of having to be wise, you have to sustain a

formidable hat. Let's see a brief glimpse.

They are not far behind. Who did you tell about your quest? No one.

Who did you tell? No one, ice work. You are being hunted. Between the

hat and the beard... You have to do a lot of this against the blue

screen, you are not in situ because of the way it is filmed. If you see

Gandalf on top of a mountain, he was there. Treading ground known

human being had trodden on before because it was inaccessible. In the

studio you have to have a bit of green screen behind you. You have

to be very tall, compared to Bilbao? You have understood it. I

had to be taller than The Hobbit. I would be standing on a table.

Sometimes we are in separate parts of the studio. I separated from the

smaller people, and by the magic of two cameras filming at the same

time, pictures can be put together. New Zealand stars with wonderful

landscape. Some people have been quite critical about the effect of

3D vision. It is so sharp, but sometimes you get distracted from

the story? It happened to me and I have seen it twice. I am told that

people of my age, whose eyesight is less clear than people of yours,

that it does not worry us as much as it worries younger people. I

think it is the future whether we like it or not and the hobbit will

go down as the film that broke through. It is 48 frames a second,

it is normally 24 frames a second. This human eye sees at 60 seconds

per-second, so it is a little bit further to go and probably someone

like James Cameron will take us there. Gandalf has become a

character children all around the country are now obsessed with. The

dwarfs our hooligan, real ale campaigners, basically? Charmless,

compared with hobbit sauce. have actually made the other two

films, or do you have a lot of filming To do question my Eddie not

really know, frankly. I just turn up when required. I have another

few weeks to go to tie up the two films. We will be seeing you on an

ITV sitcom, with Derek Jacobi, someone you have known for a long

time? We acted together at a university, but not since. Also,

Marcia Warren, played my mother when I did Camel it. -- hamlet.

working title is a vicious old queens. My reply was I am not old.

It is about a gay couple who have lived together for 50 years and one

of the ways they communicate his bike being horrible to each other.

Of course, they love each other. It is very, very funny. Written by one

of the writers from will and Grace, a very successful American TV

series who wrote Family Guide. We get going in January. -- family guy.

Gay marriage has become politically controversial. David Cameron in

favour of it. The Church of England have said it will be illegal?

a way of protecting the Church's right not to consecrate a marriage.

Marriage is not done in church technically, marriage only happens

when you sign the register. It is a civil contract, the blessing of it

is an extra. You can do without it, you do not have to go to church.

They get very confused about it, thinking it is an attack on the

church. And the Quakers say, we want to celebrate same gender

marriages. You must allow us to do it. It is all peripheral to the

real argument and the inevitability of the march forward to the

acceptance of a quality, which has been one of the great success

stories of the last 25 years. do you regard David Cameron in that

regard? It was gratifying, when they tried to stop the Government

making a fool of itself introducing section 28, I talk to John Major,

the then Prime Minister. He came out and supported David Cameron on

gay marriage. They are responding to the pressure in society. When we

had Civil partnerships. Every civil partnership celebrated going beyond

the family and the friends to the employers and the ripples have gone

across the country. People who objective to same gender marriages,

really are caught in by Waters and the King old fashioned. People who

might a not know it the fact you are a pub landlord, but you go to

schools to talk to children? Yes, I am on my way to the north-east and

Edinburgh. I tell them what it used to be like. And I see their jaws

drop, when I tell them that friends of mine were put in prison for

making love, they cannot believe it. Sex and 28, having gone, which

inhibited schools talking positively about it, there is work

to be done. All parties are rallying around that and local

authorities, and enlightened headteachers and governors, parents

as well. To see the way the kids understand the principles is

wonderful. There are not many schools I am not invited to. Faith

schools and some academies. They need to be told more strongly about

what they should and shouldn't say. Senior churchmen make alarmist

remarks. Yes, of course. You have the authority on Gandalf. You were

the hat, in the schools. Are we going to see you on stage again

soon? I was talking about great Shakespearean roles? You will have

to come to New York next year. But there is a plan to come to London

after that. But not for a bit, I am afraid. Le V8 to have you. 20 very

much indeed. When Labour left office in 2010,

Jack Straw was one of only three people who'd served continuously in

Cabinet, throughout the party's 13 years in government, under Tony

Blair and then Gordon Brown. Appropriately, his recent

autobiography is subtitled 'Memoirs of a Political Survivor'. When

Labour returned to Opposition, he had to re-learn all sorts of skills,

like driving. He'd got so used to having protection officers to do

that for him. He's been in the news again recently, because of the

controversy over the alleged rendition of detainees to face

torture abroad on his watch. Jack Straw joins me now. Good morning.

Good morning. Can we talk about the terrible story that dominates the

papers today? When you came in as Home Secretary, there was this

thing called the Snowdrop petition which was pressing for even tighter

controls on handguns in particular. It was after the Dunblane massacre.

What would your advice be to the American politicians, including the

President, who are facing a more formidable gun lobby and how they

should proceed? Their system is different from ours. They have this

love affair with guns. Not withstanding the fact crime has

gone down, murders have gone down in the US, for fear of crime has

gone up, so people are arming themselves. Not just with hand

pistols but semi- automatic machine-guns, the kind that was

used in this massacre. It is a different circumstance. My advice,

for what it is worth is this, there is no act of Parliament, no act of

Congress that can guarantee there will never be a massacre, even in

Norway where they have very tight laws. We have had them here, in

Cumbria, it you remember? However, the more he tightened the law, the

more you reduce the risk. There is no doubt at all, the firearms Act

which I brought in in 1997, had quite a lot of controversy. People

were saying, you're taking the right to use pistols away. We are

not all criminals. It is difficult to get a licence for a pistol and a

rifle. People feel much happier about that and say that. Do you see

movement happening in the state? Or is it an impossibility? I am not

putting on any money on people happening. Sensible people want it

to happen. But the Rifle Association lobby controls politics

in a number of states. A number of things we do not understand about

US politics is, because there is no limit to what outside organisations

can spend on political advertising, none at all, you can buy

commercials. It you are a politician and you get involved in

something controversial, than an outside lobby will almost literally

kill you politically. President Obama does not have to face that?

No, but he faces Congress which does. And you had this completely

mad aspect of the American constitution with elections every

two years. It is one of the very few democracies where it is

election after election. So it is always controversial. Let's now

talk about the arguments of the decriminalisation of drugs. We have

MPs calling for a major push and possibly a Royal Commission. Have

your views changed? You always very hard line. My views about whether

you should decriminalise it, particularly soft drugs, have not

changed. However, you have got to think about this all of the time.

The evidence is there. There was a piece in the Independent, a man who

knows about this was saying, I paraphrase, on the whole what we

have done in the last 15 years has been in relative success, because

interesting read, and you don't see much about this in the papers, drug

use by all age groups in the population, but particularly

younger people has gone down. We have put loads of money into drug

abusers who ended up in prison. And that has also helped. However, I am

not so certain about my views that I think they should never be re-

examined. Possibly a big Commission? I don't except what

Nick Clegg says, there has been a conspiracy of silence about this.

It you have up to little -- particular view, you should be

ready to have it examined. It you can set up a Royal Commission which

will do a speedy job, because that is important, not take many years.

And you get decent people on it he will be able to stand back and come

to a view, than fine. My worry on this issue of decriminalisation, is

what it lead to an increase in consumption and then it used and

leading on to harder drugs? Starting with tobacco, and someone

said we have found this wonderful product that makes you hazy, so

Walter Raleigh. I think now we would look back and say no, we want

it banned. And the other thing in the papers, the renditions. A

Libyan dissident has been paid �2.2 million by the British Government

because he was rendered, taken, he says with MI6 help and then

tortured in Libya. I know there is another case still pending which

makes it difficult for you to comment. You are a reflective man,

you have reflected on the issues around the Iraq war on what you

knew at the time. There is something very worrying about a

relationship with Colonel Gaddafi Yeading so quickly to people being

sent back and tortured? There is a great deal I would like to say on

the subject, a huge amount. I will do at an appropriate stage. I am

sorry, Andrew, for the reasons you have already raised, there is

another two cases. One has been settled and one has not, it is an

in active stage a proceedings. I had said I had always scribblers

been observed in my duties on the law in respect of this and

everything else. Can you go as far to say what happened to these two

men was terrible? That is to commence on the merits of the case,

and I understand your concern. I do feel frustrated about this. I would

like to say the great deal about this and the wider issues. In my

book, I do talk about other issues including Iraq and Iran. You may

remember on Iran, on his programme... You used the word

crackers. It's that a nuclear Your critics say they find it

difficult to understand how you as Home Secretary knew nothing about

rendition flights coming through Britain. I don't think there were

lots of them. I am ready to be proved wrong on this. A pretty

large number have been recorded. What the government has promised is

a re-establishment of Sigurdsson inquiry, the judge lead inquiry

into renditions. -- Gibson inquiry. I am very happy to answer for my

actions. Do you feel comfortable about that episode in your

political life? As I said earlier, I was very scrupulous indeed about

observing my legal duties. When this worry came forward, we did the

most thorough examination possible about whether it renditions had

taken place either through British airspace... In the UK, or in places

like Diego Garcia. With one exception, as I recall, which David

Miliband brought up in the House of Commons in 2008, there were none.

There were two transfers of prisoners which I agreed as Home

Secretary, which could be classified as renditions, but that

was on the record. A my comfortable? Do jobs I had were

very difficult. But I am comfortable about the decisions I

made and I am happy for them to be examined. You mentioned your book.

One of the things in your book is the agonising you went through

about whether or not to basically joined in a plot to remove Gordon

Brown when he seemed to be failing as Prime Minister. You said like a

lot of people, you were prepared to win and but not to kill. You could

have helped change political history, possibly. Having read the

book, I don't quite understand why you chose not to. I could have

changed political history. But we didn't know how to change political

history. Alistair Darling, Harriet and the rest of us were deeply

worried about what was happening inside the Labour government. Our

hopes and aspirations and rational judgments about Gordon were not

working out as planned. But the problem, if we had organised a coup,

is that history might have gone the other way and there could have been

total chaos. That would have been the worry, all right. For now,

thank you. Now over to Naga for the news

headlines. President Obama will travel to

Connecticut today to visit the small community of Newtown left

devastated by Friday's school shooting. All 26 victims have now

been identified - 20 of them were children aged six and seven.

Survivors and local people have been leaving flowers in memory of

the dead. Mr Obama has pledged what he calls "meaningful action" to

tackle gun crime in America - though it's not clear what that

means. The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson,

has added his voice to pressure for a referendum on the UK's membership

of the EU. He told this programme that he was in favour of staying in,

but wanted people to have their say on a re-negotiated relationship

focusing on the single market. He said he didn't expect any vote to

take place before the next general election, although he wanted it to

happen as soon as possible. Lots of other countries have had

referendums on the succeeding treaties. How long? We have never

had a popular vote since 1975 on Europe. I would like to be able to

campaign for the single market and a withdrawal from a lot of the

nonsensical policies. That's all from me for now. The

next news on BBC One is at midday. Back to you, Andrew.

Thanks, Naga. Well, Jack Straw is still with me, and we've been

joined again by our paper reviewers. We're going to hear about some of

their most memorable moments from 2012. But first, here's a look back

at some of the highlights from the past year on this show - a year in

which I got a new motor. A rather A year where we have for boost from

the Olympic Games, the Queen's Diamond Jubilee, a year when the

world will be looking at Britain and visiting Britain. We have to

play to our strengths. His 2012 a year in which you say I will do

better? This is part of the gig of being leader of the opposition. You

get criticism, you get advice, it is what happens. I want this

government to be rooted in the centre ground of British politics

on the side of hard-working families. George Osborne said a

year ago in his Budget, I will put fuel in the tank of the British

economy. 12 months on, we are on the hard shoulder. Of course things

have not turned out as we wanted two years ago, but I don't think

you could find the Finance Minister of any Western country in the world

at the moment who would not say the same. The bookies say you're a hot

favourite to take over from Ed Miliband. I am not happy with my

current job as Shadow Home Secretary because I want to be Home

Secretary for up I thought you were going to say you wanted to be

leader! Home Secretary. This job is absorbing mentally, emotionally, I

loved doing it and I want to continue. Whether I will be lucky

enough to do anything else in politics, I very much doubt. At you

would call yourself a monarchist? really, really love the Queen.

will still be our head of state, she will be Queen of Scotland,

Queen of England. 100% dedicated, professional. It is hard to think

of her ever put in a foot wrong. have the pageantry coming over the

wall! If you watch any actor's career, any great actors, it

doesn't end well. You will not say you are ageing! My hair is grey!

ate in the places where I used to It is our old friend Europe that

comes back and dish -- dominates. In your waters, do you believe the

British people will have a referendum on Europe in the next

five years? That is another way of asking the same question. What is

your instinct? We will set out our position together. We don't answer

questions on the basis of our guts. Her good morning! Britain's Olympic

George. If there's one British quality we don't want to see this

year it is British modesty. Her # To be the bad man, to be the

sad man. Sunny days are over this guys are

angry. I am not going to answer any questions this evening, but

tomorrow I am doing a number of interviews including one with

Andrew Marr at 9am. Did he go or was he pushed? He went, extremely

honestly -- honourably. You said, if will you as Prime Minister

undertake to implement whatever Leveson asks? Correct. A what did

he say? He said if it is not bonkers, I'll do it. Is that still

the case? Absolutely. Tax-avoidance rather than evasion. The mood has

changed. What people maybe would not have cared about a few years

back, if you are in a time of economic difficulty and austerity

and people care about these things. I put up my loyalty card. Your

Starbucks card? Yes. I went every day. It does seem grotesque.

does and it is unacceptable. News Cwmni Dawns Werin Caerdydd I'm

-- # I'm sorry. It's quite good! It might be more

effective than the original. # Don't mess...

Quite a year, 2012 - 2013 doesn't sound such a good number, what are

you looking forward to from it? Your best or worst moments from the

year? Richard Wilson. Opening Ceremony of the Paralympics with

Sir Ian McKellen. Very good. Sir Ian McKellen? I was about to say

that! It was the Paralympics. More recently, seeing Richard's

production of Straight. This is becoming a lovely! Mind was

certainly with Mike -- when my mum met the Queen on her Jubilee tour.

My second one is seeing the Hobbit next Saturday. On it goes. Jack?

was the Olympic. It was fantastic. We had a fantastic sense of

ourselves and an achievement by Britain. We can still do stuff.

Just add his point. If it hadn't been for Tony Blair and Tessa

Jowell, we wouldn't ever have got that. And Sebastian Coe. Absolutely.

They deserve huge credit, but it was fantastic. Thank you very much.

2013 doesn't have the same ring. We're almost at the end of the show,

but before we go, just time to introduce the musicians who are

going to be singing us out this morning, and indeed, this year. Who

could forget this moment from 2012? The rain-lashed finale of the

Queen's Diamond Jubilee river pageant. Among those brave souls

singing their hearts out on that barge on the Thames back in June

were Monica, Victoria, David and Peter - collectively known as Amore.

Back on dry land now and they've been busy recording their debut

album, Stand Together. It is an album of all sorts of hits.

Absolutely. We've got a real mixture on there. We've got one of

each voice type so we take it straight from the score. It is

lovely to do some great arrangement. What was it like waiting for your

big moment? You were like a drowned rat. Yes. It was a pretty tense

moment when the boat started moving around and we saw the Royal Family.

We look like this! Fantastic. We will be hearing a Christmas carol

from you. Thank you. Well, that's it - thanks to all my

guests this morning, and thanks to you for watching the show

throughout this eventful year. We're taking a break now, but we'll

be back on Sunday, 6th January when my guests will include the Prime

Minister, so do join me for that. Meanwhile, have a very Happy

Christmas, and we leave you now # Deck the halls with boughs of

holly. # Fa la la la la, la la la la.

# Tis the season to be jolly. # Fa la la la la, la la la la.

# Don we now our gay apparel. # Fa la la, la la la, la la la.

# Deck the halls with boughs of holly.

# Fa la la la la, la la la la. # Tis the season to be jolly.

# Fa la la la la, la la la la. # Strike the harp and join the

chorus. # Fa la la la la, la la la la.

# Follow me in merry measure. # Fa la la la la, la la la la.

# While I tell of Yuletide treasure. # Fa la la la la, la la la la.

# Fast away the old year passes. # Fa la la la la, la la la la.