09/12/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

A good morning. It is that twinkly time, we blockbuster films and

crammed TV schedules almost upon us. Hobbit-mania this year, dragons,

elves and no doubt that cartoon film, the Snowman on the telly. But

over the next few days, we have been told to expect the Beast from

the East. And yes, it is in 3-D, but on the other hand, it is real,

a blast of icy wind and ferocious snow from Siberia which will push

night temperatures as low as -15, so get ready. Blown in from nearer

than Siberia, this morning's paper reviewers are the former Labour

minister Charlie Falconer, with strong views on reforming the press,

and Sarah Sands, editor of the Evening Standard.

Now, if only the weather was all we had to worry about. But the Autumn

Statement has jolted everybody into concentrating on the horribly weak

condition of our economy. This morning, the Business Secretary is

contemplating a double-dip recession. There were awful figures

from industry and a huge political row is brewing over benefits cuts.

Business as usual, then, as we stare ahead for another few years

of austerity, and a man who will be wielding the hatchet, the Chief

Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander. Can public services like

the NHS still be protected? Speaking of the health service, MPs

were stunned this week when the Labour MP Ann Clwyd described in

harrowing terms the poor hospital care her husband received before he

died. She is in our Cardiff studio to talk to us about her experience.

We will hear from the chief executive of the Royal College of

Nursing about the pressures facing NHS staff. On a lighter note,

remember this? 15 years since they hit the charts, a new musical with

the songs of the Spice Girls is set to open in London's West End. I

talked to Ginger Spice, Geri Halliwell, about what inspired it

and how it is going for girl power these days. And playing us out at

this morning, a bit of manpower, combining the talents of America

and Britain, we have State Of The Union.

# Look at the two of us, in sympathy, sometimes ecstasy.

First, over to Naga Munchetty for the headlines.

Australian police say they have been contacted by British officers

with a view to speaking to the two DJs who made a hoax call to the

hospital treating the Duchess of Cambridge. Mel Greig and Michael

Christian pretended to be members of the Royal Family. The nurse who

answered the call, Jacintha Saldanha, was later found dead.

Prince William was at a charity event last night without his wife

at his side. He joked that her morning sickness was so bad that it

should be called all day and all night sickness. It was his first

appearance in public since the couple issued a statement saying

they were saddened by the death of Jacintha Saldanha. The two DJs who

made the hoax call have kept out of the spotlight since shortly after

the broadcast, when they called it one of their greatest spanks ever.

The radio station said it was concerned for their welfare. They

are being counselled by a psychologist paid for by the

station. Police in London will have to prepare a report for the crime

on the death of the nurse. New South Wales Police confirmed that

they had been contacted by their police in the UK about the

possibility of interviewing the two DJs. The King Edward VII hospital

has sent a letter to the radio station that broadcasts the call.

For their chairman's said it was foolish of the presenters to

consider trying to live their way through to the patience. Then to

discover that the call had been pre-recorded and the decision to

transmit approved by a management was appalling. He said the

consequences of their call had been tragic beyond words. In Australia,

some lump the newspaper's reporting on the core by Today FM have been

talking about the British media whipping up a predictable frenzy.

One editorial said the two Australian presenters had not

killed the Britishness. Another columnist said there had been no

malice in the core. A campaign group backing same-sex marriage has

been launched by senior Conservative politicians.

The group, which includes education Secretary Michael Gove, said

religious bodies should be able to conduct gay marriages, but should

not be compelled to do so. Plans to legalise same-sex marriage

announced by David Cameron have divided the Conservative Party.

A Egypt's new President appears to have backed down on controversial

plans that would have expanded his powers. Mohammed Morsi announced

the climbdown following days of street protests. His critics have

accused him of acting like a dictator, but Mr Morsi says he is

safeguarding the revolution that swept Hosni Mubarak from power.

The decree that has divided Egypt and caused one of its worst waves

of violence since the start of the revolution has been revoked.

President Mohammed Morsi annulled the constitutional edict that gave

him sweeping powers and which gained him the titles of a dictator

and Faro among thousands of protesters. The announcement came

after several hours of talks between the president, vice-

president and a number off political figures in Egypt. This is

a major compromise on Mohammed Morsi's Park and an expected move -

- an unexpected move. Last Thursday, the president showed no willingness

to give up the absolute powers he gathered himself. But tonight in a

dramatic U-turn, he has decided to give those powers up. It seems the

opposition have only won half the battle. The president did not budge

on the other sticky issue, the referendum on the controversial

draft constitution. In the press conference, it was announced that a

vote on the charter will go ahead as planned on December 15th. The

main opposition figures heading the National Salvation Front had

boycotted the meeting. Their reaction is key to how events will

shape up politically and on the streets. Since the announcement of

the decree, Egypt has been polarised and has plunged into a

new wave of violence. It is yet to be seen whether this annulment will

defuse tensions on a judge's volatile streets.

The former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi has confirmed

that he will run for office again next year. The country's current

Prime Minister Mario Monti says he plans to resign after Mr

Berlusconi's party which are its support from the Government, saying

Mr Monti's austerity policies have harmed Italy. Mr Berlusconi is a

controversial figure who was convicted of tax fraud in October.

England's cricketers have beaten India by seven wickets this morning

to take a 2-1 lead in the four match series. India managed to add

just eight runs to their overnight total before James Anderson bold

Pragyan Ojha. That meant England were left with a small target of 41

to win the match. They only have to avoid defeat in the final Test to

become the first visiting team to win a series in India since 2004.

More headlines before 10 o'clock. Now to the front pages. That story

about the nurse who killed herself is on a lot of the front pages.

There is a different line in the Sunday People tobacco and the

Sunday Telegraph, saying the hoax DJs in Australia Arnaud on suicide

watch. The Mail on Sunday has a story about a committee in the

House of Commons suggesting that the legalisation of cannabis might

have to come. The And the Independent on Sunday says the real

cost of a degree these days for students are starting now is

climbing to �100,000, which must make people think twice. Finally,

quite a lot of political war on the front pages. We will be talking

about a lot of these stories on the programme. Sarah Sands and Charlie

Falconer, welcome. Sarah, we start with the biggest story, the hoax

call and a suicide. This is the front of the Sunday Express, which

has details about the nurse's last calls to her family. She did not

mention any of this, which suggests there was absolute isolation and

humiliation. But the stories raise the issue about what you do about

human collateral damage. We will talk about that and Leveson later,

but this is something that arises. This woman was a night nurse,

minding her own business, and got caught up in this storm. And of

course, the Australian presenters did not intend any of this,

although it does seem foolish to have gone through a hospital of all

places. It is one thing to bring down and a powerful and pompous,

but not hospitals. Humiliation was the big headline on the Sunday

Telegraph. These two nurses, without warning, found themselves,

right across the world, being made a total fool of. It is not hard to

imagine that that would be an awful thing to happen. Sarah is right.

The disc jockeys in Australia would never have intended or envisaged

that this would happen. But thinking about the consequences on

human beings if this were to happen is really important. The Sun on

Sunday has a very good editorial which quotes the general manager of

the radio station saying "these disc jockeys are not machines, they

are human beings". But so are the nurses. Putting the story above

everything means you do not focus on what Sarah chillingly described

as human collateral damage. Do we have any sympathy for the two DJs?

Only in that it was not intended. They are thoughtless and young and

it seemed funny at the time. There are other stories we would like to

get through. Britain's invisible army of homeless. This is an

article in the Independent on Sunday based on a Panorama

programme that goes out on Thursday. That programme will say there are

now 50% more families living in bed and breakfasts than previously. We

focus on homeless people at Christmas time, but, I know because

I am involved in a housing association, the number of people

with nowhere to live with families, and the numbers of places to house

them, the numbers of people are going up and the numbers of places

are going down. We know from our own society what the consequences

of putting families in bed and breakfasts are. It goes closely

with a story like this. Pay-day loan firm earns �615 million in

five years and pays no tax. The pay-day loan firm is making money

by making small loans on rates of interest to families who can't

afford to keep going until their next pay day, and they are paying

no tax. Is it surprising that there is not enough money to pay for the

homeless? My next story is from the Sunday Times. Senior Tories fight

for gay marriage in church. It is about the schism in the Tory party

between the Social Liberals, led by Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, for

the right to gay marriage in church. Then you have the other side, who

say this is modernisation for its own sake. It is a slightly odd

argument that it is a distraction. It is a way of dismissing anything.

I think the Prime Minister is really picking up on the Lyndon

Johnson dictum that you are in office for something that means

something. But I think it will be a tough fight. It throws a

searchlight on the Tory Party's attitudes to the world generally.

The political parties, it is important that you do try to

reflect the mood of the time. If you are fighting about something

that appears to be looking backwards rather than forwards,

that is defining of the political party. None of them wanted to talk

about this. Another story, sex equality plan for Lords. We know

that when Kate Middleton has her baby, whether it is a girl or boy,

it will be the heir to the heir to the throne. We know there is no

sexual bias in relation to that. But in the Lords, we still have

hereditary peers, and if one of them dies, the hereditaries have

elect a replacement. And only boys can succeed to hereditary peerage.

If we are making the change for the monarch, it is time we made the

change for hereditary peers. The political world decided not to go

ahead with Lords reform and making it more democratic, but we could at

least make it more woman-friendly. I have chosen the Michael Gove wore

over pay for teachers, partly because the language is interesting.

In all other parts of government, everything has to be so compromised

and reconciling what the coalition want. But in this, there is no

doubt that Michael Gove is talking about his department being on a war

footing, and this is a battle that has to be won. He is really going

for it. He is being radical. And he is allowed today. At the end of it,

if there is one reform that you see that has really changed a basic

part of Britain, it will be education. But do you make it

easier or less easy to introduce that reform by saying to those who

have to deliver it on the ground, I am at war with you? That would make

one feel... Be it is a statement. But if he is at war with me, maybe

I would not agree with what he is Could you have someone who sound

like a Scot as who is in Surrey... Gove's Scottish accent. The fact he

comes from Aberdeen seems to be plotting with him coming to leader

of the party. Any more stories? Just one more. It is two stories.

One fear of the unknown in Damascus and Egyptian President annuals

decree. We saw it on the news. The President, who wants to rule by

decree. What people want is law. Law is what makes you feel safe

against the power of whether it be a dictator President or an army.

You have another story. I have a quick one, which I will refer

straight to, which is are lawyers paid too much? We have in the Sun

six fat cat lawyers get �500,000 a year.

Lawyers are incredibly important to make sure people don't get

oppressed. People whose babies are taken away from them by the local

authority spend months trying to find lawyers. It is hardly

imaginable to imagine something more important.

There is a Select Committee who will produce a hard Hytheing report

on drugs - is this something which is starting to pop up in general?

No-one wants people to take illegal drugs or get out of their minds on

drink or drugs hafplt is the answer? I don't know. They -- what

is the answer? I don't know. What they suggest is a royal

committee - that is not a bad idea. Last week the papers were full of

the Leveson Inquiry. A lot is going on behind the scenes. Sarah, as a

newspaper editor, not wearing any shackles so far, what has been

going on? This is the week when the newspaper industry is supposed to

come up with its own answer to Leveson? We've had two meetings

along the editors. It's now going through a document to see really

how far we can go in agreeing with everything that Leveson said. We

agree with the principals, know we have to put our house in order. It

is a question of going through some technical process in the language

to make sure there are not any unintended consequences. What seems

to me to be a difficult thing is how you set up a genuinely

independent body, not connected to the newspaper industry, not

connected to the House of Commons or the politics and choose them.

Have you cracked that? We are waiting for Oliver Letwin's

qualifier. Who would not have the bias - who would everyone want to

work with? You sort of end one the Queen.

That is where we have the royal charter. I think everybody trusts

the Queen. I would agree with that. We have talked across the political

spectrum. It is encouraging to hear what Sarah is saying.

What Sarah said is leave it to the press to produce a body which

complys with the Leveson principals, but have an independent verifyer,

which he envisages Parliament would create whose job is to say what the

press comes up with meets the principals he has laid down. What

we have been doing is crafting a bill, which we hope will reflect

what Leveson remepbldzed, leaving it -- recommended, leaving it to

the press. With a stottory back- stop? -- statutory back-stop?

are not trying to produce any regulation direct either as a back-

stop or not. What we will do, as soon as we can, I cannot tell you

when, is publish the bill, so people can see what we think

Leveson wanted the parliamentarians to do. Because what Sarah is

describing is what Leveson wanted the press to do. If we can get the

two together, so the press produce the body that makes sure the

McCanns are never torn to pieces again and Parliament produces a

body which says, have they done it, yes or no - if it is no, then

another stage. Which is sometimes newspaper editors are fearful about.

Do you have the votes in the House of Commons and the House of Lords

for that measure? I don't know whether we have the votes if you

produce the bill, then that provides a catalyst around which

people can see the rather measured proposals that Leveson was making.

Can I ask you about one thing floated yesterday, the notion there

could be a Royal Charter. The BBC has one. It would be for a press

regulator? I don't know - if we have a Royal Charter, then the

terms have to be agreed by the Privy Council, by ministers. I

don't know for the press body... I am keen to find out what has been

said, so one can really consider it. All right, thank you to both of you

very much indeed for that. Four inches of snow over much of Britain

is coming up this week. We are told - that is the beast from the East,

I mentioned earlier on. With a full We have a cold snap on the way, for

sure. High pressure builds from the UK, it will bring in cold weather.

Dry, but chilly days and nights to come. The question comes though

from Wednesday onwards, into Thursday, as the high weakens. That

is when you heard the reference to the Beast from the East moving in.

It's all to play for really in the next few days. That forecast will

keep evolving. It is worth staying tuned. For the next few days fine

weather, but increasingly cold. Today, after a milder start, the

northerly wind will bring clearer conditions into the northern half

of the UK as the day pans out, but make it feel increasingly chilly.

To the south, we keep cloud and drizzly outbreaks of rain. Top

temperatures, ranging from a chilly five Celsius in Scotland to a mild

nine Celsius in Plymouth. A wide- spread frost overnight. Bright, but

chilly days in prospect for Monday and Tuesday, where we may see

temperatures not getting above D No alarmism in the next story.

These are stories which keep occurring, accounts of poor care

and a lack of compassion. Worst was the scandal at Mid Staffordshire

hospital where hundreds are thought to have died over the past few

years. There are many others. This week, one MP told the Prime

Minister of her concerns based on the experiences of her husband,

when he was dying in hospital. Mr Speaker, a universal health care

system, free at the point of delivery is what the overwhelming

majority of the British people want. Something which I remain firmly

committed to. However, there are increasing

complaints about nurses who fail to show care and compassion to those.

What will the Prime Minister do about that? Ann Clwyd, who you saw

there, joins me now from our Cardiff story. Ann Clwyd, you said

your husband was left to die like a battery when in a cage and it was

clearly an utterly harrowing experience. You are a very long-

term, experienced MP. What are you going to do about this? Will you

start a new campaign for more compassion in British hospitals?

Yes, is the short answer. I've had hundreds and hundreds of e-mails

from people from all over the country. And the theme is the same

- there are some good nurses, but there are also some very bad nurses.

People talked about their own experiences. One line from one of

the e-mails "I must agree with you. The nursing profession is no longer

the caring profession. When I sat at my husband's bedside, I did

wonder why some of the so-called nurses bothered to put on their

uniforms, the arrogance of some left me bewildered." "since they

make nursing a degree course, the wrong kind are entering the

profession. They think they are above the meanal tasks which the

old-fartioned nurses undertook. We don't need a lot of pen pushers. We

need compassionate nurses who are entering the profession because

they care for people." They are powerful points. A lot of people

will think what happened to you is utterly awful. Because you are an

MP and you were able to raise it in the House of Commons we are now

talking about it. What can be done to change the atmosphere in

hospitals and in the profession? This is not a new thing, Andrew. I

was for three years on the Royal Commission on the NHS. The only

Royal Commission we've had. It reported in 1979. It landed on the

desk of Margaret Thatcher. And very few of the recommendations

were ever put in place. Some of the evidence that we had at that time

on standards of care, we said, I suggest up just a few quotes from

the Royal Commission report. Received much evidence, expressing

concern about declining standards of nursing care. The RCN claim the

standards have been put at risks because of financial constraints

and man-hour shortages T main areas of risks were in hospital and one

of these, of course I saw for myself. Neglect of basic nursing

routines. So, there are already some patient

bodies who campaign on these sort bodies who campaign on these sort

of issues. But for whatever reason they have not achieved national

prominence. Are you going to try and bring them together and create

a new organisation? What is your thinking? Obviously there are

people who have done work on this over a long period of time. I hope

to get together next week, well this week, some of the

organisations that have been campaigning to see how I can take

it forward from there. The kind of response I've had from people all

over the country, and from other countries as well, is amazing.

They are not just 1 Para graph letters, they are substantial --

one -paragraph letters. They are substantial. I met a freelance

operator and he is being used by some hospitals to talk to the

hospital staff about compassion and care.

You know, where did those principals go?

All right, Ann Clwyd, thank you very much for joining us this

morning. What happened to Ann Clwyd's husband is a single case.

Nursing is an extremely demanding job. People come from all the world.

Of course the nurse who killed herself after the hoax call was one

of them. There is something wrong, is there not in the culture of some

hospitals. I am joined by Dr Carter, chief executive of the Royal

College of Nursing. Thank you for coming in Dr Carter. The Health

Secretary himself has talked - and going on one-off cases something

seems to be going wrong in the culture. First of all, I have every

sympathy with the situation Ann Clwyd found herself in. One thing I

say when people give these accounts, because people write to me - it is

essential that individual case is investigated. Too often we get

these accounts weeks, months, years after they have occurred. I know

the hospital in Cardiff will want to do this - it has to be

investigated. If an individual nurse or other health care worker

is culpable and there are no mitigating circumstances, then

individuals have to be held to account. I believe that most nurses,

the vast majority of nurses still uphold the long and well-respected

traditions that we associate with the nursing profession. The Royal

College of Nursing have been clear, there are strains in the system. I

genuinely believe, and 92% of patients, that complete surveys

express high degrees of satisfaction with their care. 8% do

not. If I can pursue that point briefly. The NHS is a massive

organisation. It treats one million people every 36 hours.

Statistically, 920,000 people are feeling good about it. 80,000 are

feeling very bad about it. If your mother or one of your relatives is

in the 80,000, you want to say what is going on. What about Ann Clwyd's

point, she said a lot of the wrong people are going into nursing.

People who expect, as it were, a sort of semi white-collar career,

rather than the old-fartioned do the tough, gritty jobs and be there

alongside patients as much as possible? A lot of people would say

We had an independent commission chaired by Lord Willis. He boasts

the myth that if you have a degree, you can't be caring. The last thing

I wanted it is take issue with Ann Clwyd, but how can you make a

correlation between the fact that someone is well educated and not

being able to care? The other factor is that the nursing degree

profession issue does not kick in until next year. Most nurses

currently do not have a degree, so to suggest that because they are

degree dedicated... That falls at the first hurdle. I think her

argument was more not that they cannot care or feel compassion

because they are educated, but because they have come into the

profession in that way, they feel, if you like, not expected to do

some of the unpleasant, gritty, back-breaking, messy work that

nurses have to do. We get that a lot in some areas. When I visit

hospitals, which I do every week, nurses are doing does back-breaking

tasks. I do not accept that nurses are not interested in the

fundamentals of patient care. you happy to work with Ann Clwyd if

she runs this campaign? I don't think she needs a campaign. We need

to understand what is going on. We know we have a healthcare system

but is under strain, particularly with the care of older people. If

you look at some of these accounts, it is usually to do with the care

of older people. The majority of the workforce there tend to be

healthcare assistants, often under the supervision of a registered

nurse. There is nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong

when healthcare assistants are not given rudimentary training.

should ask you about the terrible case in the London Hospital with

the nurse who killed herself after that hoax call. Does that say

something about the psychological pressures on a lot of nurses?

Absolutely. But we do not know the full circumstances and I don't wish

to speculate. But this is the fall- out from these hoaxes. We have seen

them in the past. It rarely has such a dramatic effect as on this

occasion. Our thoughts are with Jacintha Saldanha's husband and

children. It is a tragedy that was avoidable.

Now, if you grew up in the 1990s, particularly if you were a girl,

there is one pop group that surely made a bigger impact than any other.

Sporty, Scary, Posh, Baby and Ginger, otherwise known as the

Spice Girls. If you had forgotten why, that performance at the

Olympics closing ceremony will have brought those memories back.

# People of the world, Spice Up Your Life!

A Now Girl Power is coming to the West End stage in a new musical

inspired by the group. Viva Forever! Tells the rags-to-riches

story of a group of girls fire songs like Wannabe, Mama and Say

You'll Be There. Joining me is Geri Halliwell, who back in the day was

known as Ginger Spice, and the author David Sinclair, who has

written a book on the Spice Girls phenomenon. Geri Halliwell, this is

a musical using the music of the Spice Girls, but it is not the

Spice Girls' story? No, it is done by the producer of Mamma Mia, and

like that, it is a different story using the Spice Girls' music.

are called jukebox musicals. Don't like that term. Our music helps

tell the story. It is not just the music. The story stands on its own.

David, put this into historical context. There are lots of boy

bands and girl bands which were put together. But the Spice Girls were

the real pioneers? I think so. In those days, there were no girl

groups. They were not considered a viable proposition. Fender Spice

Girls exploded on the scene and changed everything. By the time

they finished, there were lots of girl groups. They had a huge effect

on the music business. This musical is the legacy of what the Spice

Girls did. Let's look at the rehearsals of the musical. There

are some great characters in it. There is a middle-aged couple who

are getting it on, and it is awkward and funny. It is about

relationships between mother and daughter... And it does have

stopped text. I know your viewers are intelligent. Some of them are.

And it is joyful and funny, and it has an undercurrent about whether

it is about family, power, judgment. And what is the condition of girl

power these days? A lot of you have got girls of your own. That is true.

I think the term girl power has existed since time began, whether

it was Elizabeth I or the suffragettes. It changes in

different forms. Today, there are lots of women with girl power.

There is people power as well. David, we now live in the era of

the X Factor and all those TV shows. But the legacy of the Spice Girls,

musically? Musically, they left a bunch of great songs. In some ways,

you could say that they introduced a new era of celebrity culture, and

some of that has not been great. But that is hardly their fault.

They definitely changed the landscape of pop in a big way.

Halliwell, reflecting back, it must have been an extraordinary thing,

because you were all plucked out and you did not know each other

before the group was put together. And suddenly, you were a global

phenomenon. The pressures of that must have been amazing. I refer to

it like the Making Of Frankenstein. Dr Frankenstein was trying to

manipulate and make something. We became our own entity and took on

our own life-force and became authentic as a group. There was

real friendship and support. when you left at one point, they

started to write songs about you. That was flattering and

heartbreaking at the same time. Fingers crossed for this. Everyone

is saying it may be the next huge West End smash. Do you have

children? They are a bit old for this. But I would so this is a show

for everybody. I will get your tickets. You are not allowed to say

that! It is the BBC. I will have to pay.

Now, there are some pretty rotten jobs in this world. You could be

the United Nations peace envoy to Syria, for example. Overseeing

government spending cuts as we trudged through the long age of

austerity is not great either. On the other hand, at least the

Liberal Democrat Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, has

a job. It will mean him taking huge decisions about where the pain

falls on hospitals, police, welfare and the army for years ahead. He

joins me now. Let me start by asking about the overall state of

the economy as you perceive it. Four or five years more of pain to

come. Vince Cable was speculating about a double-dip recession. This

could go on for a very long time and be almost unbearable for a lot

of people. The Autumn Statement was about the world as it is, not how

we hoped it would be two and a half years ago, nor the fantasy world

the Labour Party seem to exist in. The OBR told us in their report

this week that we are seeing much slower growth in the Eurozone. The

broken banking system is weighing down on our economy, and that means

it will take longer to clear up the mess. So it is a harder road, but

we are making progress. Will we see a double-dip recession? De OBR

forecast that the final quarter of this year would be negative, but we

did slowly see positive growth returning next year. That suggests

that we will not have that happening, but it is an uncertain

world. We are seeing continuing problems in the Eurozone, but I am

happy to rest with the OBR's forecast, which is a bounce-back

from the Olympic boost in the third quarter of this year, with steady

growth starting to return next year and a year after. Are you all so

happy to rest on the fact that people at the bottom of the heap

are paying more than everybody else to get us out of this? There is a

small group at the top who are being taxed heavily, but if you

look at the bottom 10%, they are really hurting now. And you are

imposing another three years of cuts on many, including disabled

people, who feel it is unfair. First and foremost, as you say, we

are asking those who have the most to contradict the most. We have had

additional tax rises on the wealthy at every fiscal event. They have to

pay an extra �7 billion. But people at the bottom have to pay an extra

�14 billion. Actually, if you take all the measures over time we are

putting in place, the wealthiest will pay more. In dealing with the

fact that we have a budget deficit, we have to live within our means.

That means we have to make reductions in a range of areas. The

decisions we made on welfare in the autumn statement, given that some

said we should make �10 billion of welfare cuts, we made �3.5 billion.

When you say some people, you mean the Conservatives? Some

Conservatives advocated this. We have said to people on out-of-work

benefits and some people in work as well, you expected your benefits to

rise, and they will rise by less than you expected. But we will also

give you the biggest single tax cut for working people that we have

seen for generations. That is the tax threshold. A which you are

paying for by hitting people including the disabled. A lot of

people look at these figures and say, how can you, as a Liberal

Democrat, on the progressive side, blue this to disabled people?

fact, we have protected disability benefits and tax allowances. We are

increasing benefits by 1% for three years. Which is an effective cut,

given inflation. You are right, it is a reduction in real terms. But

it is sharing the burden. should we be sharing the burden

with the disabled at the bottom of the pile? The key benefits for

disabled people, the disability living allowance and the disability

components of tax credits, are rising with inflation. So people

like Tanni Grey-Thompson and all the disabled charities who are

furious, they have all got the wrong picture? I am not accusing

them of that. They have an important argument to make, and we

have listened to that. We could have said we would apply this 1% to

disability living allowance, the principal benefit which goes to

meet the extra costs of disability. We could have applied that to the

tax credits which go to disabled children. We are not. Those will go

up in line with inflation. But they will be poorer as a result of the

Autumn Statement. A likewise with pensioners. Many disabled people

are pensioners. We are increasing the pension. Some would say there

is a cynical politics involved in this. You know that pensioners are

more likely to vote and people on middle incomes are likely to vote.

And people on welfare are less likely to vote. So whatever the

howls of outrage from the various lobby groups, in a cynical way,

this makes good politics? I don't look at it in that way at all. As

you said, my job is to find a way to make the savings this country

has to make with -- to deal with the catastrophic mess our

predecessors left this country in. That means difficult decisions. How

do we make sure the balance over all is fair, but recognise that we

have to reduce the rate of increase of the costs of the welfare system?

I don't want to talk about benefit recipients in a negative way.

60% of them are in work. Her and those 60% will be met better off as

a result of the Autumn Statement, because the biggest tax cut coming

from the Liberal Democrats will mean there that in net terms,

working people on lower incomes are better off. As a Liberal Democrat,

having written the �10,000 income tax threshold into our manifestoes,

we are delivering that. You are paying for it with benefit cuts.

are paying for it by getting more money from tax dodgers, and asking

Let's talk about the tax-dodgers. Starbucks have come up and said, oh,

here's �20 million. What do you make of this? Is taxation for big

companys a voluntary - a bit of money on the plate arrangement? It

is very strange skham Taxation for anyone in --!. Taxation for anyone

is not a voluntary arrangement. What I would say is this - that

thinking of the tax system like the Church plate going around on a

Sunday morning is the wrong way to think about it. Our job as a

Government and the responsibility to taxpayers is to pay the proper

amount they owe. Many want to come forward to the Government and say

we think we have paid too little and I want to rectify my

arrangements, of course I welcome that. There are tens of millions in

this country who pay the proper amount of tax, day in, day out.

Ensuring people cannot avoid our tax system is a key objective.

Offering up a bit of money for a headline - how would you regard

that, unacceptable? They have to have, any company who does that,

any multinational, has to have a word with HMRC. I gath their is go

oning. I will not -- I gather that is on-going.

The principal is the tax system is not voluntary choice. It is not

something you can choose to do because you think it might please

your customers. It is an obligation. What we have to do, which we did in

the Autumn Statement, is put more resources into the hand of the

taxman to go after companies to make sure they are playing the

proper tax and change the global rules, to make sure they are there

to catch these companies and brought up-to-date with the

internet age. Barely a day goes by without another example of another

big company who it turns out are not paying tax or very much tax.

You are starting to close the holes in gernsy and the Isle of Man -- in

Guernsey and the Isle of Man, et cetera. What about some new

international agreement to enforce very large multinational companies,

paying their fair whack of tax? is a very important point. George

Osborne has taken the lead in terms of the OECD. We are putting more

money in alongside the French and German Governments to change the

rules globally, so we can make sure that the rules catch these big

companies, that you cannot use the arrangements to shift properties to

lower tax jurisdictions. That is work going on now. -- private

profits to lower tax jurisdictions. That is work going on now. We will

get an extra �9 billion a year as a result of the efforts that I and my

colleagues in the Treasury have pushed for. This is the right way

to do this. Your observation is, which in a sense the tax system we

inherited was full of holes, that we have a lot of work to do. This

is the moment to do it? It is about fairness. It is about saying, at a

time of austerity, everyone has an obligation to play by the same tax

rules. Why did you lose the argument on the mansion tax? We put

forward an idea of a mansion tax. I think it is the right idea that

people in very large, expensive properties should pay additional

tax. The Conservatives made clear their long-standing opposition to

this. Is this because you think that the Conservative donors said

no more black tie dinners, no more help in our mansions if you put a

mansion tax on - as has been reported today? I know there was a

letter saying that. There was an argument in the discussions we had,

which was more about the re- valuelations of properties. It is

the right thing to do. We have not succeeded this time. We have

increased taxes on the wealthiest on their pensions. We are getting

more money from Switzerland, where wealthy people thought they could

hide their money from the taxman. That is part of the overall

fairness. That means that we, as the Liberal Democrats, will

continue to argue for this in Government. If we do not succeed

over the next two-and-a-half years, we will put it to the British

people as part of our manifesto in two-and-a-half years. If you carry

on protecting the NHS, overseas aid and so on, then the non-protected

departments are going to have to face a real-terms cut of about one-

third or 30% in their departmental budget, which they describe as

intolerable, impossible, and so on. They are right. You will have to

look again at what you ring-fence and what you don't, aren't you?

job I have to do over the next six months is find �10 billion of

savings from Government departments. That is in the short-term? There'll

be difficult choices there. We have said we need to protect the NHS

budget. Cost pressures in the NHS run ahead of inflation. As you

heard from Ann Clwyd's moving interview, there is a lot of work

to be done to improve standards in the NHS. It is right to continue to

protect that part of the public sector. Which means you have to be

much more brutal than you have been so far in other departmental

spending. In some respects, people say you - it is ghastly, but you

are pussy-footing around, you have to take out functions that were

done, but we cannot afford any more. We have people on one side saying

we are cutting too much. And other people saying we are cutting too

little. We are right to continue to do this in a steady way. The

reductions in 015-2016, are the -- in 2015-2016r the same pace. There

is an opportunity to do some positive things here. For example,

I would like to see additional resources found, through the

spending round, support improvements in childcare,

particularly for working mums seeking to go back to work. We have

to make those difficult choices to fund the difficult things as well

as make the reductions. You look at the numbers and look at the economy,

it is obvious there'll have to be another substantial round of cuts,

or of tax rises. I put it to you that actually next year or the year

after, or when ever you will have to say to British people, we need

more tax rises. It may well be your mansion tax, I don't know. We are

making the decisions for 2015-2016. We will set it out in our manifesto.

This is one reason the position is so incredible. They live in a

fantasy world. They come in. OK. Before we finish.

I want to come back to the question of the short to medium-term future.

Another budget in March. Are we going to have to see yet more

changes to the base spending on departments? More cuts in

departmental budgets and probably more taxes too? I don't think so.

We are, in this Spending Review period, over the next couple of

years, we are sticking to the plans. We have shifted money by squeezing

bobg rock casy to put more into squeezed very much. 6% so far.

have made significant squeezes. There are more to come, not just in

this Parliament, but into the next two. Thank you very much for

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury said that official data say that

we're not heading for a triple-dip recession. He admitted that the

slowdown in Europe and the fallout of the banking crisis meant it was

going to be a longer and harder road. On tax avoidance, he said

that collecting tax from companies like Starbucks was not a voluntary

process, like passing the Church plate around. Mohamed Morsi has

annulled a decree he issued last month, which expanded his powers.

The decree sparked angry protests and led to accusations that Mr

Morsi was acting like a dictator. A controversial referendum on a draft

constitution will go ahead, as planned, next week. Australian

police authorities have confirmed that they have been contacted by

British officers with a view to speaking to the DJs who made a hoax

call to the hospital treating the Duchess of Cambridge. The two, Mel

Greig and Michael Christian pretended to be members of the

Royal Family. The nurse, who answered the call, Jacintha

Saldanha, was later found dead. That's all from me for now. The

next news on BBC One is at midday. See you soon. For now, back to

Andrew. Many thanks. Now we had girl power and it is time for

something different. Live music from two veterans. Brook Williams

is a folk and country musician with golden guitar fingers. Together,

they are State of the Union. How did you meet? I do a concert every

two years in Ely, where I live. I met Brook Williams before. He

interviewed me me for a magazine article. He came through the snow

and the rest is history. And the album you made, you recorded it in

a day-and-a-half. We booked five days. We finished after a day-and-

a-half. We took the rest of the week off. Tell us about the song.

We will do Pet Shop Boys - the song Rent. Are you a fan? They are great.

It is good fun taking pop songs and turning them into blues songs.

are looking forward to that. That's all we have time for. Back next

Sunday for our last show of 2012. We have Boris Johnson, Rory Bremner

and Gandalf, that is one of Britain's finest Shakespearean

actors, Ian McKellen. Now, State of # And look at the two of us in

sympathy. # With everything we see.

# I never want anything, it's easy. # You buy whatever I need.

# But look at my hopes, look at my dreams.

# The currency we've spent. # I love you, you pay my rent.

# You phone me in the evening on hearsay.

# And bought me caviar. # You took me to a restaurant off

Broadway. # To tell me who you are.

# We never ever argue, we never calculate.

# The currency we've spent. # I love you, oh, you pay my rent.

# I love you, pay my rent. # And look at the two of us in

sympathy. # And sometimes ecstasy.

# Words mean so little, and money less.