02/12/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Very cold, and it's going to affect more than your

choice of coats and jumpers - news just in warns about defects

including splits in the skin, discoloration, holes in the middle,

and weirdly twisted shapes. For yes, thanks to floods and freeze,

there's a shortage of potatoes, carrots and sprouts this year and

according to supermarkets we're going to have to learn to love ugly

You heard it here first. No ugly vegetables on this show, however.

Two blooming paper reviewers this morning - the Times columnist and

former speechwriter for Tony Blair, Phil Collins. Plus the director of

Liberty, Shami Chakrabati. The big economic news comes in detail on

Wednesday with what's called the Autumn Statement but which is

probably going to feel more like the winter statement, even the

midwinter statement, with austerity, freezes and cold comfort. The

chancellor George Osborne joins us to talk about growth, taxes,

welfare and the cost of living - can he still hit his key targets?

And from the Labour side, can Ed Balls - a long-time critic of the

austerity programme - convince voters that he has an alternative

plan which can stop the debt just piling up? The other talking point

this weekend is whether British newspapers be trusted to behave

more responsibly without a formal legal framework for a new press

watchdog. Actor Hugh Grant was a victim of phone hacking and

believes new laws must underpin the new system, though not its day to

day working. John Whittingdale MP, who chaired the parliamentary

committee that first looked into phone hacking, is wary. Plus this

morning, you'll have noticed the drums and piano. Jools Holland is

here with Rumer, and more crash and thump than this little studio has

ever seen before. They'll be singing a song for George Osborne,

or one whose title he'll certainly agree with, it's called Accentuate

The Positive. All that coming up after the news from Naga Munchetty.

Good morning. The Chancellor George Osborne has acknowledged that

reducing the nation's debt may take longer than he's planned. Writing

in a Sunday newspaper, Mr Osborne says the road ahead will be longer

than he thought but that turning back would be a disaster.

Economists say the Chancellor will have to reduce spending further if

he's to meet deficit targets. Cutting tax relief for pensions

could be among the measures. A major road tunnel has collapsed

in Japan, trapping cars and killing several people Large sections of

concrete fell on vehicles in the Sasago tunnel which is 50 miles

West of Tokyo. The search and rescue operation has been suspended

because of fears of another collapse. Rupert Wingfield Hayes

reports. These grainy CCTV pictures from inside the tunnel show of the

section of ceiling, perhaps as long as 100 metres, that collapsed on to

the roadway below. Rescue workers can be seen scrambling over the

concrete. Underneath there is thought to be a number of vehicles

and people buried, but how many no one is sure. The four kilometre

long Sasago tunnel lies on one of Japan's most important and busiest

highways, linking Tokyo to central Japan. Earlier smoke could be seen

billowing from the entrance, although the fire does now appear

to be out. At least 20 people are reported to have escaped from their

cars inside the tunnel and walk to safety. Some described terrifying

scenes as concrete fell around their vehicles. Japanese television

news says the rescue teams have been withdrawn from inside the

tunnel because there are fears more sections of the tunnel could

collapse. There were no earthquakes reported in the area this morning.

Taliban suicide attackers have targeted a NATO military base in

Afghanistan. All seven insurgents and one Afghan guard were killed in

the raid which happened near Jalalabad. Car bombs were used in

the strike which shattered windows a kilometre away. NATO is gradually

handing security over to Afghan forces ahead of the departure of

most combat troops in 2014. A key adviser to Lord Justice

Leveson says his proposals for press regulation would breach the

Human Rights Act. The judge's report recommended an independent

self-regulatory body reinforced by law. And a group of high profile

celebrities has launched a petition to support it. But Shami

Chakrabarti of the civil rights group Liberty says the press is

being coerced. David Beckham has ended his US

football career on a high - his team have won the Major League

Soccer cup final. It's the second year in a row Beckham has helped LA

Galaxy win the competition. There's now much speculation over where

he'll be going next. Monaco and Paris Saint Germain are believed to

have made approaches. That's all from me for now. I'll be back with

the headlines just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. Thank

you, Naga. Now to the front pages. This is the Observer, and many

rugby fans will be pleased by this picture, showing the victory over

the All Blacks. The Independent on Sunday has an interesting you'd

take, a growing argument about how much tax big companies pay has

spread to football, the big football clubs. The Sunday Times

says George Osborne, who is with us later, involved in a new tax will

The Sunday Express warning about the end of the beat bobby. Last

week it was the end of the GP's surgery. Thank you Phil Collins and

Shami Chakrabarti. It is impossible to open a newspaper without your

face on it. It is a black day indeed if that is the case.

have become the pin up for opposing statutory regulation. I think this

is getting unnecessarily polarised, including my position in it. I

support the Leveson plan for independent self regulation of the

press. That is his recommendation. And you were part of the panel

advising him. Yes, but I speak for myself now as a member of liberty.

I have not delivered a bombshell in the Mail on Sunday, I have tried to

explain but I will try harder now on BBC One. I support the plan for

a more independent, robust self regulator. That is his

recommendation and I think it is amazing that so many people,

including the press, appear to be coalescing around that plan. The

second point is how you encourage people to set up such a club.

are carrots and the sticks. support this. On the one hand,

victims of violations of privacy... Ken you make this work without

regulation? You can try to do it without court rules. If you can't,

I would support a statute that did just that, and that is part of the

plan from Leveson and I support it. The bombshell is what you do if

people don't join the club and Leveson does not want compulsory

regulation of the press but he says if they don't play ball politicians

may have to consider it. This they in in the Mail exhibits a principal

in awe of the papers, any distinction has been exploded in

all the papers this morning. Every one is campaigning. It is

intriguing and the politicians and the press are much more interested

in this story than the wider public, I suspect, and we have wall-to-wall

coverage of it. Any news is just spawn and made up so there is a

relentless quality to the coverage in the papers this morning. One of

the things I did pick up is that Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tory

pro legislation people are likely to come up with a draft Bill of the

Rome quite quickly. Yes, I think there will be a race for a draft

bill. For the mistake is thinking this is about legislation or not

legislation. This is about whether there should be incentives to

people to join a decent press club or compulsion. Nudges from judges.

Yes, excellent. Let's move on to some of the other stories. I think

you chose the Observer's front page? Nick Boyle's has said we have

got to build on the countryside and he said it rebuilt nice things on

the countryside people's objections will melt away. Andrew motion has

said this is an appalling display of vandalism on the countryside,

but actually Nick Boyles is essentially right. We need more

houses. We knew say nice things, are you talking about Prince

Charles's pounds -- style houses? At we are living longer and we

don't have a house building that Monique so it has got to go

somewhere, and of course nobody wants it near their house but there

has to be a solution to this. You have got an unusual political fight

common up between the Tory party and the countryside, very similar

to what the last government went through. It is a problem that can

only be solved by building more houses. No way through it. We

should do a bit of economics as well. So many stories in the paper

purporting to know what is coming in the Autumn Statement. I have

chosen to go straight to the horse's mouth, as it were. There is

speculation about what might be in it, but in the Sun we have the

authentic political voice of George Osborne, a script for the next

general election effectively, which is to say that Labour spent all of

your money, don't let them do it again. It has been awful but we are

on the right course so don't turn back. We have it set out, the

perfect script in this Tom. have chosen a Guantanamo story.

you believe there is still a British resident in Guantanamo?

Next week the Met Police are flying out to Cuba to interview him about

his suggestion that he was tortured in front of UK security personnel.

I feel rather ashamed, having done this work for all these years, and

we have still got a British resident in Guantanamo. President

Obama has now been re-elected. The first time he was elected, he was

going to close it down. Now there is a Bill going through Parliament

to introduce secret courts that would make it even harder to expose

the agencies and the government when they get mixed up in this kind

of scandal. Back to British politics. Every time you have a by-

election or something peculiar happens, you get this article in

the Independent, which is to say the small party is on the verge of

a breakthrough. It is usually the BNP, now it is UKIP, which I

suppose his progress of this sort. This is the art -- article asking

if they are about to burst through and the onset is they are not. They

tend to do well in European elections because UKIP think this

is the only issue and I have nothing else to say. Are they not

mutating into an alternative right of centre party on education,

immigration, and things that appealed to Tory heartland voters?

More than that they have become a repository for people who don't

like politicians. Once upon a time you could kick them by voting for

Liberal Democrats. That is a lovely the theory that Liberal Democrats

are migrating to UKIP. They I don't like politics people. Are they

worried about the amount of seats they might lose on the edge?

they are worried about it but they can't win unless they appealed to

the centre. If they spend all their time worrying about UKIP, they will

one do all the wrong things and that would be worse. Phone hacking

is not the only scandal of recent years and it is sad the

construction worker blacklist scandal has not attracted the same

Something similar happened with a consultancy company that was

storing the names of people on a blacklist. They were black lifted

because they were trade union is so they were raising concerns about

health and safety. Health and safety on a building site is a

life-and-death matter. People's lives were ruined and they found

they could not work in the construction industry for years.

One of the things that has not been touched on in the coverage of

lovers in is that Leveson is concerned with the current

Information Commissioner's Office and that it did not do everything

it could have done about phone hacking. He said it should have

more powers and resources. This would also apply to the hideous

black list that has been kept about construction workers. The observer

tells us that it has affected the Crossrail project. You point about

Leveson not being the biggest story, the politics of this a fascinating.

If we look back on this with a bit of perspective, it may be that the

Lord that has had the big media moment is not necessarily Lord

Brabazon, but Lord McAlpine. That attempt to put in place laws that

govern people on Twitter could be the biggest thing. I disagree. What

you have missed is that Leveson allows for more than one club to be

set up. So tweeters that wanted to benefit from legal protection could

be the same thing. The others by- election -- the other a style icon

in the papers today is Angelina Jolie. Channel 4 News did a really

important piece last night. It was about her campaign with the Foreign

Secretary, William Hague, in relation to rape being used as a

weapon of war. She lets slip in that interview that sometimes she

finds her campaigning and her role as a mother to be more fulfilling

than acting. The grass is greener, that is all I can say. My response

to the headline that she is thinking about quitting acting is

that I did not know she had started. And football managers in the

newspapers as well. 10 days into his job at Chelsea, Rafael Benitez

is facing headlines that he faces the axe. Roberto Mancini, their

second in the league, he was booed off the pitch. The pace at which

this happens now is absolutely ludicrous. In a league of 20 teams,

it is obvious that 19 of them are not going to win, but the lack of

patience is there. Thank you both very much for that. Quite sunny in

the Southeast yesterday and more sunshine promised today, but cold.

An inch or more of snow predicted in many parts this evening. Really

pretty serious winter weather. Tingling toes and sore fingers,

woolly hat time. With a more scientific run-down, here is Sarah

scientific run-down, here is Sarah Keith-Lucas. Good morning. There is

a real winter the flavour to the weather over the next 24 hours in

particular. It will be bright with sunshine for many is and it will

feel very cold. This evening, we will see some snowfall arriving.

Today, we have glorious winter sunshine for central and eastern

areas. Things change for the West with rain spilling in, but even

with its days cold, temperatures around four degrees. This evening,

the rain will bump into the cold air, and it will turn to snow. It

is likely to effect Lincolnshire, up through northern England and

Scotland. We could see five centimetres on the hills. Even more

for Highland Scotland. In the south, the range sheet out of the way

fairly quickly on Monday morning. Snow will linger across parts of

Scotland for longer. Sunshine and showers, a milder and breezier day

on Monday. Things are looking cold -- and wintery.

Last Thursday, Lord Justice Leveson delivered his report on the press.

The current safeguards are woefully inadequate, he said, the industry's

own plans for a new body were not good enough and Parliament must now

act to guarantee that the new system has the scope, powers and

independence needed to operate effectively. The case for a legally

enshrined structure has been championed by many of those who

have been victims of press excess, including the actor Hugh Grant. A

couple of months ago, on the eve of the Tory party conference, I

interviewed both Hugh Grant and the Prime Minister on the same show.

Back then, it seemed the Leveson report might get a warmer welcome

in Downing Street. You told him that it what Leveson suggested was

not bonkers, you would implement it. Is that the case? Absolutely. We

have got to remember why this was set up in the first place.

But what now? With Ed Miliband urging his MPs to endorse the

campaign for formal new laws, Nick Clegg saying publicly that he

disagrees with the PM and many Tory backbenchers urging David Cameron

to hold out against any statutory regulation, it seems that the way

Leveson is implemented will be fought out on the floor of the

Commons. Joining me from his constituency in Essex is the

chairman of the Culture Select Committee, John Whittingdale, and

here in the studio we have Hugh Grant. Good morning. Hugh Grant,

were you surprised when you heard what the Prime Ministers that? Was

it genuinely surprising? Yes, I had just read the report locked in a

room with a number of the true victims of this, and I do not

include myself. I was in a room with the Dow the family, and we

thought the report was intelligent, but at the mild end of what

everyone had hoped for. We thought, the is no way the Prime Minister

cannot endorse this. We sat in the Hacked Off room with a bunch of 50

or 60 other non celebrity victims, people like the Hillsborough

families group, watching the Prime Ministers speaking the Commons. The

feeling was one of astonishment and betrayal. This is a very

complicated proposal. Can you explain why you think statutory

legislation underpinning this brand new body matters so much? It simply

will not work without it. We have had seven attempts in the last six

years to allow the press one more chance at regulating themselves and

each one has been unsuccessful. It beggars belief that the Prime

Minister can think that on this occasion it will work. What the

judge recommended was extremely mild. One of the statutes was let's

enshrined freedom of the press in statute. Of First Amendment. We

will not see that report in any of the newspapers. John Whittingdale,

were you surprised by what the Prime Minister said? A lot of

Conservatives are standing up against any kind of legislation.

That seems to be a growing feeling within the party? I was not

surprised because I think the Prime Minister made some strong points

about the real concerns of the principle of legislation of the

prize, and also about some genuine practical difficulties about some

of the proposals that Lord Brabazon came up with. Hugh Grant said we

cannot have the press regulating themselves, it has failed, and it

has failed. That is not under discussion. Everyone agrees there

needs to be a brand new body that is independent of the press, with

powers to impose penalties. That is the first time that has happened.

There is no disagreement about it and that will result from ladders

and. The only debate is whether the body has to be underpinned by

legislation. But the discussion is being led by the editors, the press,

and the worry is that something will be done to satisfy them rather

than people like Hugh Grant? Obviously the editors have to be

involved in the discussion because if the body is to work, the

newspapers have got to make clear that the accept its rulings, that

they will obey the code of conduct, but they must not be the people at

judge whether the rules have been broken. Lord Leveson was very clear

that there should be no MPs are to another sitting on the independent

body and that is something I agree with, and we must now look to all

the newspapers to sign up to this. If they do not, perhaps we would

have to move to legislation, but we have real concerns about doing so.

We should give a chance to the industry to prove that it will

accept legislation. The people who are going to sit down at his

meeting with the editors on Thursday to device is brand new

form of so-called independent regulation at exactly the same

people are who came up with the Press Complaints Commission, which

is widely discredited. They are the same people who came up with the

hunt-black plan which the judge said fell short of what was

required. It is the same people. If the public think that that is a

satisfactory arrangement, the must be mad. But they are not mad. That

is why 80 % of the public favour and a -- favour an independent

regulator. They is no difference. John Whittingdale. They is no

difference. Everybody agrees there needs to be an independent body to

regulate the press. That is what Lord Leveson and we are proposing.

The passing of legislation is only necessary if the press demonstrate

that they will not accept the rulings of that body. It the press

do not go along with it, there may need to be legislation. Why would

we give them another chance to show that they would fail to do that,

letting down the victims of all these abuses? It is favouring the

press barons and big proprietors. Governments and Prime Ministers

opting out have always chosen them over the people and victims of

crime. It is very close to disgraceful, the Prime Minister's

position on this. Let's look at what is likely to happen. Back to

John Whittingdale. We're now going to have a fight in the House of

Commons were most MPs, certainly those that I have seen on the

papers, or on Hugh Grant's side rather than on the side of the

Prime Minister? As people have had a chance to read the details of

what is proposed and think about it, more and more doubts are emerging.

I was interested to see in the papers today and number of Labour

MPs who are beginning to voice doubts about it. You have

campaigners like Shami Chakrabarti were voicing concerns. As people

think about is carefully they will realise the dangers of going down

this road and they will want to try and find a way of getting the

proper regulation and they all want to see. -- we all want to see.

is very important to distinguish between those people who speak

about freedom of speech and mean it's in theory and those who have

vested interests. We all know that the Prime Minister has close

friendships with a lot of people at News International. It suits his

political agenda to be in bed with the big press barons. He has been

Facebook friends with Elisabeth Murdoch. He's a great friend of the

chief executive of News International. It is important to

establish what people come from India argument. That is no crime.

He has admitted it. I have spent seven years during the media

committee. Of course I have met these people. You told me you were

particularly good friends with him. I told you that my committee had

said unanimously that he had lied to Parliament. I suspect I am not a

very good friend. La its put him to one side and Return to the tactics.

It has been suggested that an alternative draft bill will be put

forward by Labour and the Liberal Democrats so that there will be at

least one quite urgent proposal in front of the House of Commons. Is

When it comes to the intricacies of drafting bills, you are talking to

romantic comedy actor and not a politician. 90% of Daily Mail

readers favour independent regulation backed by a statutory

underpinning. Most of parliament favours it, the victim's favour it

and we have hacked off petition running unbelievably fast. That is

public opinion and it will be hard for the Prime Minister to fly in

the face of that just to satisfy his friends in the media. Last

question - in terms of how this is brought forward, will your

committee be trying to get across this ahead of the inevitable

parliamentary exchanges? When have the jobs of my committee is to look

at the government's policy towards the media and certainly we will

want to look at proposals in the Leveson report and we would like to

hear from probably Hugh Grant but also other victims and people like

Ofcom, this strange suggestion that somehow Ofcom should have a role in

regulating the press. We have a lot of people who we would want to hear

their reaction and then we can find out if it is workable.

And so to the economy. Ever since the election, Ed Balls as shadow

chancellor has been criticising the Coalition government for going too

far too fast in its austerity programme, and his case is that

Britain's poor performance has been worsened by the scale of the cuts.

The Government, though, says he's never taken enough responsibility

for our huge indebtedness, and that Labour would just return to the old

days of splurge. Ed Balls joins me now. Do you still splurge?

everybody knows we have got to get the deficit down. Two years ago

George Osborne said judge me on this one thing while I get the

deficit down and he is failing because this year the borrowing is

going up and knock down. It is rising again because we have been

in recession, because the economic plan has failed, and if you are in

a hole you should stop digging. far, so familiar, if I may say so.

None the less... Familiar and correct. Let me ask my question,

which is that Labour has still not convinced people - look at the

opinion polls - that you have a proper alternative plan to get the

deficit down without the scale of the cuts this government is making.

In other words that you haven't really made the hard choices and

you haven't confronted the hard choices any government will have to

make in 2015. It is pretty much a blank sheet on where the cuts will

happen on your side. It was always going to be hard for us after 2010

to turn around public opinion but in the end it is about judgment. I

said to George Osborne his plan would not work and his judgment has

proved to be woefully lacking. only works for you if you have an

alternative plan. By would look to be debating how we can turn this

economy around and he raised three things we should do - kick-start

the recovery, get the jobs market moving, build homes and create jobs.

Secondly, go ahead with the business investment bank, and

thirdly let's do it in a fair way. The Chancellor's priority is to

raise taxes for pensioners and to cut tax credits for working

families but to cut the tax rate for millionaires. That is deeply

unfair. I want to debate a different Labour future. Lord

Heseltine was employed by this government to produce a plan for

growth and quite a lot of that seems to be close to some of the

things you have been talking about, in terms of more money for the

regions, more house building and so on. We may well see in the coming

autumn statement the sting on higher earners over their pensions

so it seems to a lot of people there are areas where you could get

alongside and say actually we agree with the government. It is not all

tit for tat. Firstly, Lord Heseltine I think thinks the

abolition of the regional development agencies and the

dismantling of the infrastructure was ridiculous, but the question

businesses are asking is where are the decisions on aviation, why

aren't we building any more roads? The growth plant is a shambles,

there was nothing there. Even the business investment bank is not

happening. It is very hard funding that, that is a big problem. But if

we are in a hole with no growth and borrowing rising, it is harder

funding that, that is why you have got to have good jobs and growth

plan and change course from the George Osborne plan. He came in and

he reversed with �1.6 billion the pension tax changes before the last

election to give it back to the richest people. Anything he does

there is a reversal of his mistake. But there is relief coming for

better-off pensioners, which is presumably something you will

welcome. A There is a millionaire's tax cut to over 8000 millionaires.

I know you don't want to talk about the millionaire tax cuts, but why

should pensioners pay more? Why should fuel be rising in cost?

Let's talk about some of the pain. Apart from any of the changes in

the tax system, widespread briefing that we will get a freeze or at the

near freeze to in-work benefits. Do you think the welfare system can

and should take more of a squeeze at this point? But how has spending

gone up in this Parliament? It is �20 billion more. It is costing

more. The Work Programme has failed, long-term unemployment is going up.

A let's go back to my question - are you in a favour of the squeeze

on welfare? For of course, which is why it I am so frustrated it has

risen by �20 billion. What sort of squeeze do you think is acceptable?

I think it is on fire by, a question of choices and priorities.

My question is were and how? people back to work. That is not

squeezing the welfare system. course it is. It is an important

effect but I and talking about directly acting on it. Unless you

get people back to work... The Work Programme is failing, and then

George Osborne says he will hit people at the bottom. You say to me

he is in a whole, here is a shovel, why don't you start digging to?

People don't understand where you will be digging because you don't

give people the detail for the cuts. Build homes, get every young person

back to work and say there is no choice and here are the jobs. The

Work Programme should be a guaranteed to get people back into

work. It is costing billions more because his plan is failing.

know the trouble a lot of the bank's part in and you know that

simply squeezing them more is not a long-term option. I know the banks

can afford a bank bonus tax. Repeating their high youth

unemployment of the 1980s is perverse. There is no growth,

borrowing is up, as George Osborne the difficult questions. Maybe he

will be giving more answers than you. I have given the many answers,

but not always the answers you want. Well, that's the case for the

political prosecution, but this week the chancellor George Osborne

will be paying at least as much attention to the markets. They in

turn are waiting to see whether he's still sticking by his promise

to get debt falling by 2015. Much harder now, with the likelihood of

no growth at all this year, and warnings of more austerity,

including tax rises and spending cuts running on till 2018.

Chancellor, welcome. How optimistic are you there you are able to

fulfil the fiscal promises you made in 2010? I made a promise that

Britain would be seen as a credible place to invest and we are seen as

a credible place to invest. With respect, the promise was that you

would get the share of debt falling by 2015 - can you do that? We have

two targets, to get it falling by 2015/16, and also to balance the

current budget. There will be an independent assessment of those

targets on Wednesday. It would be unfair and self-defeating in having

created this constitutional innovation for me to come on the

television a few days earlier and give their verdict. Or I was asking

was how optimistic are you feeling about it? It is clearly taking

longer to deal with Britain's debt and recover from the financial

crisis than anyone would have hoped but we have made real progress, the

deficit is down by a quarter, there are a million more jobs in the

private sector and to go back to the borrowing and the debt and the

spending that Ed Balls represents would be a complete disaster for

this country. Yet we will probably have zero growth this year, and if

you look at the league table in the G20 we are pretty close to the

bottom of the pile, not success by anybody's standards. I don't accept

that. The eurozone is in recession and is one of our biggest trading

partners. China, Brazil, other countries are having problems. In

Britain we have had growth. The latest GDP numbers showed growth,

but if you are telling me it is a tough environment out there, of

course I would wish it was growing, but of course the question is how

to deliver that and I think undermining the credibility of the

deficit plan, going back on commitment to deal with debts would

be a complete catastrophe for Britain and put us into the place

where some European countries are at the moment. He made political

choices at the beginning about how to handle this and I'm just saying

that other countries like the United States made different

choices, like many of the northern European countries, and they have

done better than we have done. completely agree that Germany has

done better than we have done. America. Germany has done better be

-- because they spent the last decade connecting themselves to

economies like China and India making sure their economy was

balanced and not overly dependent on finance. They invested in

education like we should have done. I am clearing that mess, it can't

be done overnight. The debate in the US is very similar about how to

get on top of the deficit in a measured way, and that is precisely

the debate we will have in US politics over the next few weeks.

Let's look at this in the way that to say that if the state pulled

back the private sector would push in and create the jobs, which is

what you said when you first came in, but that has not happened at

anything like the scale you hope to partly because of the economy and

the rest of it. does that mean you have to spend more time and effort

looking at growth, major infrastructure spending, bringing

that forward? Firstly we have created jobs in this economy, more

than was forecast by our independent forecaster. We have

more than compensated... Actually the total number of ours has gone

up. That has more than compensated for the inevitable loss of jobs in

a public sector the country can no longer afford so actually

employment is that a record high it in our country so there has been a

very good story on jobs. There have been small parts of the economy

that has done all right, but the big idea on growth clearly hasn't

worked. In the last two years we have had an oil price shock, the

eurozone crisis, you know we don't operate in a vacuum. Unless Britain

was able to demonstrate we had a real plan to deal with the step we

were being a real crisis. We have also got to be in a competitive for

place, winning the global race, creating the jobs of the future,

and everything I'm doing - making business tax competitive, reforming

schools and welfare, reforming planning laws - all of these things

are designed to make sure that not only do we see growth, but also our

children have the opportunities that we have had to pursue

fulfilling Korea's and be part of businesses that are successful in

the world. The global race is another big challenge for Britain.

My question is do you not need to have a new urgent plan for growth?

Bring forward infrastructure projects? Bring forward more

housebuilding? I agree, we have got to build more homes which means

changing the planning laws, which we are doing, and at the same time

underwriting the purchase and the construction of homes. We have got

to find more infrastructure, roads and rail, we are doing that and

using the government's low-interest rates to help construct those

projects. We have got to reform schools, we are transforming an

education system that does not equip enough children to succeed in

the future. We have got to change the welfare system and Iain Duncan

Smith is doing that. I think we are making progress and I do say that

if we are making this progress, to turn back now and go back to the

problems of the past would be a I am interested in how worried you

are about the lack of growth in the economy? Of course I want to see

more growth. I see our largest partners in the trading zone in

recession. We have got to expand air trade with the places that are

growing in the world, like China and India. Help small companies?

There will be specific help for small companies. There are lots of

things to do, but underpinning it all as a confidence in this

country's ability to pay its way in the world. At the time of the party

conference season, the Liberal- Democrats ate at if it were going

to be any further freezes to the welfare budget, the rich would have

to pay. You have said a similar thing. Have you strut the bargain

that is going to require higher taxes of some kind on will the

people, and a freeze or something like a freeze for or the welfare

state? I have would not characterise it as a bargain. It

was myself as Shadow Chancellor who said, we are all in his together.

Back to the question... In every single one of my budgets, the rich

pay more than they ever did under a Labour government. Do you regret

cutting the income tax top rate? is completely phoney as a country

to think you are taxing the rich with having a top tax rate that

people do not pay. The latest figures show that it cost us �7

billion in lost tax revenue. I have increased taxes on property, stamp

duty, I have restricted the reliefs you can pay. I am very clear...

What about more of that? Going forward, we will deal with this

debt is it. It will take longer. That means difficult decisions. The

rich have to bear their fair share. That means more than their pain at

the moment? Yes. The mansion tax business, it seems it will not be

around? Be is not going to be a mansion tax. We make that clear.

There is another conception of fairness, the fairness for the

individual who goes out to work when their next door neighbour is

living a life on benefits. We're going to tackle welfare bills. That

is the Conservative approach to fairness. Make the rich pay, but

make sure you are tackling the welfare system which is deeply

unfair. Are you going for an absolute freezer DU accept that is

too harsh? We have already made the �18 billion worth of savings. We

are determined to reform welfare to make sure that work always pays. It

has to be worth going out to get a job. Fundamentally that is not

about creating a fears society but a more competitive society. With

all this discussion of fairness, lots of fork is has come on big

multinational companies, Google, Amazon, Starbucks, simply not

paying their fair share. This is a massive issue for this government?

Are due taking a urgent steps to close those loopholes? You can

enforce the taxes we have got. I will announce tomorrow extra

investment. The part of the Inland Revenue that tackles this. Secondly,

you can make sure that internationally we have the right

rules. Britain has been working with Germany and France to get

those rules on the international table. It will be a big priority

for the G8 which we hosts next year. But you cannot tackle this but

rising Britain out of the world economy. We cannot make Britain

less competitive. If you look at star Boxer Amazon, they are not

paying their corporate taxes. -- Starbucks or Amazon. Lots of their

competitors, small businesses, are paying their taxes. There is

growing fury about us. I understand the anger of people when they see

companies apparently not paying their fair share of taxes. We have

got to make sure they pay their fair share but we have also got to

make sure that the UK does not do things which drives businesses out

of the UK. We have got to have their taxes properly enforced and

an international system which we will take the lead in. You should

not be able to hide profits in low- tax havens. What was going to be a

five year plan is now more like is giving you plan at best? It is

taking longer to deal with our debt but we're making progress. To turn

back now would be a complete disaster. Some people like Ed Balls

say we should be borrowing more but that would take us back to the

problems that he created in the first place. Other people say we

would cut faster. -- we should cut faster. I do not agree with them

either. The Governor of the Bank of England has said we have got the

right plan. Now over to Naga for the news

headlines. The Chancellor has told his programme that he will continue

with his plans to bring down the deficit. Mr Osborne said turning

back now would be a disaster. He insisted that the change in policy

would see interest rates rise and Britain plunged deeper into debt.

The Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls called on the government to change

course. He said it needed a better plan for jobs and growth. He said

the tax on bank bonuses should be re-instated, and money from the

sale of mobile phone licences used to fund house-building. A major

road tunnel has trap -- has collapsed in Japan, trapping

several people and killing others. Large sections of concrete fell in

the Sasago tunnel which is 50 miles west of Tokyo. The search and

rescue operation has been suspended because of fears of another

collapse. Campaigners for press regulation

have called for Lord Leveson's report, including new legislation,

to be implemented in full. Speaking on this programme, the actor Hugh

Grant said the public were behind the plans. But the head of the

House of Commons Culture Committee John Whittingdale told us he wasn't

so sure. As people come to think about is carefully, they will

realise the dangers of going down this road and they will want to try

and find a way of getting the proper regulation we all want to

see without Parliament having to pass laws. That is all for now.

The Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor are both still here.

Good morning. We have not spoken about the Leveson fall-out. You

have a slightly different view of the relationship with the Liberal

Democrats on this subject? Is in the legislation which you will be

able to follow in the House of Commons? I hope so and I hope we

can get to the consensus. The Prime Ministers said at an las Leveson

was bonkers we should do this. Am sceptical about imposing statutory

regulation and the press, but that is not what Leveson did. There is

an underpinning in statute. I think that is reasonable. It is what the

victims want and what many people in Parliament want. Do you have the

numbers to get that through? will see. This requires the Prime

Minister to lead. George Osborne, the do not agree with that aspect

of the lad has an inquiry? Can you stop this happening in Parliament?

We all want the Leveson principles implemented. It is independent

regulation and the press must deliver that knife. Shami

Chakrabarti spoke very powerfully on the risks of legislation. So it

is not going to happen? Let's try and carry on speaking on a cross-

party basis. We should not be setting deadlines before Christmas.

This is a very complicated issue and we have got to get it right.

Thank you very much. That is all we have got time for.

Now Jools Holland spent much of the summer performing at festivals and

other events in the UK and he has been appearing on the BBC twice a

week with his splendid music show Later. For his latest album, The

Golden Age of Song, out tomorrow, he has been recording some tracks

with a number of guest artists and he is here this morning with one of

his collaborators, Rumer, no stranger to this show. Good morning.

Tell us what you're going to be singing? I am going to be singing

Accentuate The Positive. It is a cold winter. It has been a good

summer for you? It has been lovely and everyone will be accentuating

the positive. It was my great and's birthday the last time I was on.

She is 102 today. -- my great aunt's. This is the golden age of

song. We are in it now. It is the greatest songs of the 20th and 21st

century. That's almost it for today. We are

back next Sunday morning for our penultimate show of 2012, with an

array of key politicians, plus an iconic musical guest. Join us

please, Sunday at nine. But for now it is Rumer, Jools, the big band

# You've got to accentuate the positive. # Eliminate the negative.

# And latch on to the affirmative. # Don't mess with Mr In-Between. #

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum. # And bring gloom down to

the minimum. # And have faith or pandemonium is liable to walk upon

the scene. # To illustrate my last remark. # Jonah in the whale. #

Noah in the ark. # What did they do just when everything looked so

dark? # Man, they said, we'd better accentuate the positive. # And

eliminate the negative. # And latch on to the affirmative. # Don't mess