25/11/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning, on what is of course Stir Up Sunday. The newspapers

stirred up about press regulation, politicians stirred up about Europe,

but Stir Up Sunday is in fact the traditional day, the Sunday before

Advent, when you're meant to stir and prepare your Christmas pudding.

But if you didn't know that, you are in crowded company - 85% of us

have apparently forgotten this old ritual and according to the

Observer are adopting Scandinavian Christmas customs. And as we'll

discuss in our paper review, the Observer is the only major Sunday

not 100% against new rules to regulate the press. Joining me to

talk about that are Sarah Baxter, editor of the Sunday Times magazine,

and the political writer and commentator, Steve Richards.

Whether or not we're going Scandinavian in our tastes, we're

certainly not going European in our politics - after a hard and

fruitless haggle, David Cameron and the other national leaders came

home on Friday without a deal on how much money the EU can spend.

With rising calls for a referendum are we now on the road to a new and

looser relationship with Europe? I'll be talking to the Foreign

Secretary William Hague. When will voters be asked directly what they

think? I'll also be joined by a former

foreign secretary, the strongly pro-European David Miliband. He was

in office at the time of the last big flare-up in the Israel-Gaza

crisis, four years ago. Is what's happening now only the start of a

more dangerous time across the Middle East? We'll talk about the

state of the Labour party, and his own role in that as well.

And then there's Lord Leveson. One newspaper proprietor, Evgeny

Lebedev of the Independent and London Evening Standard is here, to

discuss what press regulation might mean. The Standard is running its

prestigious theatre awards ceremony tonight, and theatre directors

don't come much more garlanded than Sir Trevor Nunn. He'll be talking

about his long and varied career, and his exuberant new production of

Kiss Me, Kate, which brings together his two great loves of

Shakespeare and musicals. Finally, a band who've travelled all the way

from the Sahara desert, Tinariwen. We'll hear more from them later.

First the news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. A woman has been

killed by a falling tree, as stormy weather causes havoc in South West

England. Two other people were seriously injured when the tree

came down in Exeter. Across the country there are more than 150

flood warnings, with transport links badly disrupted. Andy Moore

has the latest. In this village, Environment Agency workers

struggled against the weight of the water to keep these trains clear.

Cornwall was one of the worst-hit counties. There were four severe

flood warnings, the highest possible alert meaning of right-to-

life. We have never been so busy. Every station has been out,

flooding from end to end. The even as he was speaking, another

incident was reported. In Exeter, strong wind caused this tree to

crash down on three people. The young woman was killed and two men

were injured. In Millbrook, people were flooded out of their homes and

emergency centres were opened to care for them. This pub has been in

the hands of the new landlady for three weeks and has been flooded

three times. The chairs were floating, it was quite bad.

Devon, about 30 homes were flooded in this particular area. We have

taken everything we can to a higher level, you always hear people

saying that and that is what we did today. Major routes were affected -

the M5 in Somerset was closed. As they did their best to clean up,

the storm moved northwards across the rest of the country with

flooding reported in many places, and yet another band of heavy rain

is expected in the West Country this afternoon and this evening.

More than a hundred workers have died in a fire in a clothing

factory in Bangladesh. The blaze started on the ground floor of a

nine-storey factory in the capital, Dhaka. Officials believe it may

have been caused by faulty electrical wiring. Such fires have

become common in Bangladeshi factories, causing dozens of deaths

every year. Laws come into force today recognising stalking as a

specific crime in England and Wales. It's hoped the new laws will give

extra protection to victims, similar to that in Scotland where

stalking has been recognised as an offence since 2010. A recent

parliamentary inquiry found that about 120,000 people, mostly women,

are stalked every year. There have been demonstrations in

Egypt, against President Morsi's decision to take extensive new

powers. Several hundred people gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square

to protest against the measures which limit judicial independence.

The Muslim Brotherhood - the Islamist movement that backs

Mohamed Morsi - has called for counter demonstrations across Egypt

today. The boxer Ricky Hatton has

announced his retirement, following his defeat by Vyacheslav Senchenko

in Manchester last night. Hatton, who's 34, last fought in 2009, but

his return to the ring ended in a knockout in the ninth round. He

said he was trying to achieve redemption after three years of

struggling with depression and substance abuse.

That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just

before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.

Now, turning to the front pages. We mentioned the Observer. There is

the Sunday Times, a story about councils taking on wind farms,

which is quite interesting because as it happens Scotland on Sunday

revealed the Conservatives' new logo in Scotland. It looks like a

windmill. The Mail on Sunday has, I think... There is a massive amount

of coverage on the Leveson story, but they have the most significant

story of Paul saying David Cameron will be set to defy any calls to

restrict the press in any way. The Sunday Express has an alarm and

looking story, the end of the doctor's surgery. That is about

more use of computers rather than seeing the doctor themselves. The

Independent on Sunday has a special report on domestic violence, which

they say is Britain's hidden epidemic. The Sunday Telegraph has

a cracking old fashioned and extraordinary story about the

family of the new Archbishop of Canterbury, about which we will be

talking as well with Steve Richards and Sarah Baxter. Welcome to you

both. Sarah, kick us off. I will start about the new Archbishop of

Canterbury. He is extraordinary wall to Mitie figure who invented

his life from the whole cloth. He is from a German Jewish family,

dated the sister of Jack Kennedy, and he was a bootlegger.

Italian friends, he called them. Her yes, I think Kennedy had a few

Italian friends as well. On his deathbed, he revealed his son, now

about to be the Archbishop of Canterbury, he said there was a

secret family out there so the new archbishop is wondering whether he

has any brothers or sisters, and they could get in touch with you or

me. We will have them on the couch. He didn't know anything about this.

There were rumours that he didn't know what was true. Sometimes our

parents are the people we don't quiz. The new archbishop is a very

good performer. I saw him giving a speech this week and he has a

brilliant comic timing. Be get more interesting every single day.

I mentioned Leveson, and I think every single newspaper has come out

warning against the dangers of new press regulation accept the

Observer it is a little bit wobbly but in the end it is the same.

the end it comes up against as well, and one of the reasons I suspect

the Mail on Sunday is on to something with a story that David

Cameron is set to defy Leveson over new press laws, he has a

nightmarish decision to make. All other newspapers are against and

yet some of his MPs, it looks like the Labour and Lib Dems are in

favour. How he resolves this, the Mail suggests that he is going to

say we are going to give you one more chance and there will be a

tough independent watchdog. If you misbehave again, then we will come

in. That means he will never do what of course. It will be

interesting to see whether he does it, and what the political reaction

to that will be. I really hope the story is right and that David

Cameron will think twice before introducing state regulation of the

press for the first time in hundreds of years. We have had a

lot of advice about how the press should be more humble and more

contrite about past errors, but nothing has been more humbling than

seeing powerful media figures like Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson

going to court and facing these charges. That is under existing

legislation. I don't think we need statutory control. We have to show

both sides of the story and you have chosen the Observer, one of

the victims of a serious misjudgment. This is Christopher

Jefferies who was accused of murder and was quite seriously libelled,

but was also seriously compensated. I do think there are existing

remedies and some of these hard cases can lead to very bad law.

should also saying balance that the Observer's columnist Will Hutton

has written a piece supporting statutory legislation. You are

about to interview the owner of the Independent, Evgeny Lebedev, who I

know feels strongly on the other side. There was a mountain of

evidence of reckless newspaper behaviour and he feels obliged to

introduce something the newspapers have to adhere to, but I am pretty

sure David Cameron will find a way of not doing it. Briefly, as a

magazine editor I see the hidden hand of the celebrity's army of PR

agents who are constantly trying to control the agenda of their clients

and the most favourable terms. They want all kinds of conditions.

see it from the other side. Is that justified by wrecking their lives?

The fact they do that is a red herring really. We will be talking

more about this with other guests before the show is over. Let's move

to another story. Europe is everywhere. This is the other big

running story this week. I do a one-man show about rock'n'roll

politics, alive show. I did it in Edinburgh and am doing it in London

in December. Ever since we were born, this has been an issue, and

the story never really changes if you step back. This paper has Tony

Blair, making this plea which he has been making since 1992. The

Sunday Telegraph says Tory MPs demanding a referendum in or out.

If you step back from it, you see that most people in British

politics want us to be in, but stroppy. That is where we always

end up, and that is where I suspect we will end up after this is true.

Some things change, however. One of the other big stories has been the

treatment of this UKIP supporting family who were told they could not

foster or adopt? They couldn't foster. Nothing has given UKIP more

of a fillip than that. There was a good article in the Sunday Times

about how the council social workers have effectively acted by

political commissars. They should not do this, but there is a story

saying the fostering row gives UKIP an election boost. Denis McShane is

stepping down. That is very dangerous for the Tories and Ed

Miliband's repositioning on Europe is also very dangerous because he

sees an opportunity to drive a wedge between the Lib Dems on the

Conservatives and he will take it if he can because he knows Europe

always makes the Conservatives fall The other a great human story in

the papers is a Larry Hagman. is terms of coverage about him.

More than when senior politicians die. He is everywhere. The Sunday

Times, on the front page, have a fact that Church Tesco was a great

fan of his. He was asked -- he asked if he could use posters of

him. There are wonderful, wacky stories about this character.

have a wonderful theory about this. At the time when the Wall came down,

East Berliners were watching Dallas and thinking, I would redeem like

to have all that they have over there. And the other things I

discovered recently, the ranch was actually quite small. They wanted

big mansions as big as South fork. That is a heck of a theory! Final

story, alcohol pricing. The Sun has quite a good story. This is another

government split. Here it is a government, and to regulation,

considering regulating the press and the regulation of alcohol. They

are contemplating on health grounds monitoring and regulating the price

of cheap alcohol. I think there will be a stampede to the shops for

extra supplies for Christmas. you post very much. Modern nursery

rhymes. Robert Hall, storms are coming. You know the rest. We have

been lashed and battered by rain and wind over the past few days.

Parts of the country are like a sodden sponge. Although the rain

has eased off in some areas, it could be a temporary respite. Ben

The respite is only temporary. More wind and rain on the way. Some

heavy rain clearing away in the north-east of England. More heavy

rain Macro starting to work its way into the south-west and Wales.

Cornwall and Devon are starting to turn wet in the afternoon. In the

south-west of Wales, wet weather Macro pushing its way in. The for

Northern Ireland, we started the day with quite a lot of fog around.

In the fog, it will feel really chilly. Quite chilly in Scotland as

well. Brighter skies further west. They extend through northern

England and into East Anglia. In the South East, we will see

increasing cloud and spots of rain. Another band of rain working its

way eastwards, across the south of the country. On top of what we

already have, there could be With so much available online,

selling newspapers these days is a tricky business. Circulation has

plummeted to a point where the very existence of famous titles is at

risk. One owner believes he might have a solution - make the papers

free. That's what Evgeny Lebedev has done with the Evening Standard.

And this Russian born son of a billionaire has some pretty strong

views on media regulation as well. Good morning. You have the Evening

Standard theatre awards tonight. This has become really quite an

important moment in a theatrical year in the capital. Despite all

the kind of warnings of disaster, almost every season turns up some

really good, serious productions of proper plays, doesn't it? If it

certainly does. I am proud to own a newspaper that has consistently

supported London theatre. As much as it pains me, coming from Russia,

I have to say that London does boast some of the greatest stage

talent in the world. The standard has consistently supported a

theatre in London since the 1950s, when the awards were set up by the

great editor of the Evening Standard and his legendary daughter,

and a winter. She will be co- hosting the awards with me. Just a

preview of some of the names and productions which are up for awards.

I do not want to mention names for nomination. I will name a couple of

the things I thought were brilliant fish here. One is Twelfth Night. It

started off at the Globe and has now moved to the Apollo Theatre.

Stephen Fry is back on stage after a long break. It is one of the best

productions I have seen in a long time. Another one I would like to

mention his, Collaborators. It is about the relationship between a

great Russian writer and Joseph Stalin. What made that night

particularly special is I found myself with a degree of separation

from Joseph Stalin. I met the widow of Anthony Eden, the late Prime

Minister, she told me that she actually thought he was rather a

nice man. Your great grandfather was there during the really rough

times with the show trials. It was a very scary time. The Evening

Standard is an interesting example of a paper that was paid for and

you went free. Has it worked? certainly has. It was a newspaper

that was consistently losing money. It lost money for over 20 years and

was about to shut. People thought we were absolutely mad when we said

we were taking it free. We said we will get it into profitability in

three years and we have. It has finally turned a profit. It is a

great turnaround in our day and age. The Independent is still losing

lots of money. You have had to close a journalistic Foundation new

set-up. Your father is now facing a charge of hooliganism in Russia.

This is the same new law that was used to put away Pussy Riot, the

protest band. Are you worried about what is happening in Russia? Will

that affect the Independent? I am quite worried. It is quite

difficult to speak over the telephone. I have been out there

and it is really worrying. The more time goes by, the more I have to

come to terms with the fact he might go to jail. Does he think he

will go to jail? If he thinks he probably will. We believe there has

been a contract taken out on his head if he goes to jail. He will be

attacked in jail. That is an easy place for somebody to be taken out.

That is very concerning. That is terrifying. The newspapers in this

country depend on money coming from Russia. Is there a risk that,

frankly, the tap will have to be turned off? Where we are now,

everything is fine. He is not accused of financial crime. What he

did was wrong and he regrets doing it. He backed someone on a

television show, we should explain. That is the only thing he is known

for. He has done so many great things in the past. It is

unfortunate that is what he is known for - this silly punch on

television. It is completely out of proportion, the kind of charge he

is facing. He could go to jail for up to seven years. If something

happens to him in jail because of his campaigning and the pro-

democracy newspaper, I hoped the Government in Russia will pay

attention to this example. If something happens to him, they will

be the ones to blame, even if they do not have anything to do with it.

As a proprietor, you have a slightly unusual view of the

potential effect of the new laws to regulate the press in this country.

Instinctively, being a Russian and seeing the other side of over-

regulated press, having grown up in the Soviet Union where the press

was completely state controlled. It was written by the state. In Russia,

things are better but not much better. Instinctively, I feel

against any form of government regulation. That said, I think we

have to Dom I have great sympathy with the victims of what happened -

the victims of phone hacking, we have to be very sensible --

sensitive as the press. If we are to stay with some form of self-

regulation, it needs to be different from before. We need to

make sure what happens does not happen again. Phone hacking was

breaking the law. The problem was not so much the regulation but the

enforcement of legislation. I cannot get my head around why the

biggest scandal in this is being overlooked. It is the law

enforcement agency who should have been arresting those journalists.

They were not because they were on the take and that story has not

picked up. I hope we follow it vigorously in the Independent in

the days and weeks ahead. The week's news was dominated by the

violent exchanges between Israel and Gaza, and the ceasefire

negotiated by Egypt's Islamist President, who has tried to dig in,

by awarding himself sweeping new powers. The Arab Awakening and the

rise of Islamism have brought a whole new dimension to Middle

Eastern politics. And now western governments are wondering aloud,

what to do about Syria. Could a limited intervention be on the

cards? David Miliband observes all this as a former Foreign Secretary.

And he is with me now. Good morning. Thank you for coming in. What has

happened over the last few weeks between Hamas on the one side and

Israel and the ever has been extraordinarily disproportionate in

terms of the number people who have died. Far more Palestinians have

died than Israelis. And yet, they are claiming some kind of victory

with the ceasefire. It is very confusing for outsiders. It is old

violence in a new Middle East. The losers are the very high numbers of

Palestinian casualties and the Israelis killed. The political

winners are Hamas and the President of Egypt. White is that? Because

they persuaded Israel not to have a ground invasion? It is chilling but

true that when Palestinians in Gaza see pictures of Israelis running

into bomb shelters, they'd think that is a victory - a shift in the

terms of trade. Egypt is returning to a very powerful role in the

Middle East. Three countries are on the rise in the Middle East. That

is why at think it is right to say that the Arab Spring is being

succeeded by an Islamist Autumn. These three countries have close

links to Hamas, links into Iran as well, and they have difficult

relations with the West. That is the new set-up in the Middle East.

We are seeing what his opponents regard as a rather brutal power

grab in Egypt by the new President. Meanwhile, in Syria, we do not know

what will happen at the end but there is huge influence. Islamism

get used for all sorts of reasons. Jihadists call themselves Islamists

and politicians call themselves Islamists. All around the world,

countries and communities are becoming more diverse. The danger

in the Middle East is it splits into sectarian camps. Syria is the

absolute and fell of that. We see it as an humanitarian crisis. It is

also a regional crisis - Iran versus Saudi Arabia. And it is

sectarian division. There has been a lot of discussion on the show

about whether we will have limited military intervention, to protect

people around the borders for... You can see countries like Turkey,

who do not want to armed militia. The Kurds are then attacking Turkey.

The balance has shifted. The official figure is 30,000. I am

sure it is three or four times that. The longer it goes on, the worse it

will get. We need to be looking, much more strongly, at what a post

President Assad Syria will look like. It is important. Secondly,

the way it will end best is with a palace coup. We will support that

very strongly. That will be against Assad. People around him a look at

the murder of the country, the implosion of the country, never

mind the murder of tens of thousands of citizens. That will be

very chilling for them. They want to know their position afterwards.

There is a military element as well. You say that is the best outcome

because it would not involve a long The fear of intervention was that

it would create chaos, we have chaos now. The Prime Minister said

this week that the hopes for the two state solution in the Middle

East are dwindling. Whilst it is not true that establishing another

state alongside the state of Israel will not... We have to ask have to

do that because some are saying we need to look to the Americans to

put pressure on them. The Americans are important but they can't do it

on their own. The old sage that we can just leave it to the parties, I

don't think it is true. They don't want compromise more than we want a

settlement and we want the UN Security Council to set parameters

and a timetable. Secondly, Hamas are at the table and we have got to

recognise that. Thirdly, the responsibilities of the wider Arab

states. Tony Blair is doing hugely diligent work on behalf of the

quartet. Unsuccessfully, it has to be said. We need to give

responsibility to the Arab states. Finally, there will not be a

solution without the big American role but the President can't do it

on his own. Who is the person President Obama could employee as

Benn and Roy? It is Bill Clinton. He should be the US envoy to the

Middle East. Have you asked Hillary Clinton or anyone else about this?

I have put this publicly so I don't have to say it privately to them

but that is the kind of game changer we need because without

that, this thing of this to state solution will be a dream that was

never fulfilled. -- two estate. After this week's negotiation and

the growth of Euro-scepticism in the country as well as in the

Conservative Party, do you think we will have a referendum over the

next few years? I think there is a big garden and starting about

Europe and it is about time as well. We will not have global governments

around the world but a lot of problems can't be sorted out by

state on their own. For this country, I think it is a tragedy it

has taken us two years to find under this government that we have

our allies amongst the rest of Europe. It should not take a crisis

summit for other countries to come out of the closet as supporters of

the UK. We should have been with them two years ago fashioning a

reformer agenda. Do you understand the Labour Party's policy on Europe

at the moment? Yes, I do. It is to be absolutely clear about the need

for reform, but also clear that Britain is better off in Europe and

Europe is stronger with Britain in it. I can't over-emphasise to you

the sense of disappointment, frustration, anger that exists on

the Continent at us by not only betraying our future but betraying

their future. I think it has big consequences for Britain. No

serious power in the 21st century will be divorced from its

neighbours. It is a matter of fact. In South America and elsewhere

countries are coming together. you are talking passionately and

eloquently. Sorry, I get a bit..., are you coming back to frontline

politics? Surely it is the time to decide. I feel I am on the front

line, not on the front bench. This week I had three jobs summit about

the unemployment issue. We desperately need a government U-

turn on this. I want to welcome a U-turn because what they have done,

the figures came out on Friday, they scrapped the future jobs fund,

they brought in a work programme which is all about the programme no

work. 380 people in my own community in South Shields have

been unemployed for more than six months. They have apprenticeships

going to the over 25s, voluntary organisations being squeezed out

and the government needs to recognise it is not working.

what point do you say to the electors of South Shields I am

staying with you. I have said that many times. You will stay in the

House of Commons and you have taken that decision? Yes, I want to fight

for these people because they need a Labour MP, but the truth is they

need a Labour government as well. Unless we elect them elsewhere

there will not be a Labour government. I want to be a part of

the Labour team on the front line even if I am not on the front bench.

A lot of people in the Labour Party will be saying we need him. If the

call comes, do you say yes? The you have made on the front line. High

keeper watching brief on this. I said to you two years ago on this

programme I didn't want a soap opera, I didn't want permanent

invidious comparison. The comparison that counts is Ed

Miliband against David Cameron, not compared to me. I think he is

giving strong leadership. I think I am refreshing myself, I am learning,

I am engaging in a different kind of politics. Let me finish, because

this is important. The country needs politics at its best. The

problems we face are so serious. And not a bickering soap opera.

Both parties, Labour and Tory, need to recognise they have to explain

to the public why they want power and what they will do with it. That

is something I want to contribute to by learning at the front line.

Sir Trevor Nunn must be - surely - the most successfully prolific

director working in the theatre today. He's had four productions

running at the same time in London recently, and his latest opening at

the Old Vic, is Kiss Me, Kate - Cole Porter's re-working of The

Taming of the Shrew, by William Shakespeare. So the show brings

together the two great passions of Sir Trevor's career - Shakespeare,

and musicals. Over the years, he's enjoyed equal success with the

Royal Shakespeare Company, the National Theatre, and on the

commercial side, notably with the works of Andrew Lloyd Webber. I'll

be talking to Trevor Nunn in a moment, but first, here's a flavour

of his new production of Kiss Me, Great stuff, and it is a

wonderfully enjoyable show. It has already got people stamping and

cheering, and all the things you want them to do. You have said it

can be even harder to director musical than to direct Shakespeare

production or a mainstream play. I was watching this and wondering

what does it mean to director musical like that? What does a

badly directed musical look like? A lot of people don't really

understand what you do, if I may say. A musical is an immensely

complex set of problems. Shakespeare plays are immensely

complex set of problems because you are bringing together a group of ad

hoc performers and you are teaching them a particular language

discipline. In musical work, you are trained to combine the

disciplines of singing and working with music, choreography, but you

are also trying to get an acting style that is as truthful as the

work can possibly there. You are trying to have staging ideas which

are memorable and which serve the peace. And so it is where people

are standing on the stage? That is the easy bit? OK. You are used to

the idea that people in the theatre talk about it as a collective

process. I am immensely fortunate in Kiss Me Kate that I am working

with a wonderful choreographer, and designer, and we have worked

together before as a team. I would say that musicals do have a

peculiar habit of wanting to fly apart in all directions and

probably the most important contribution of the director is to

establish the kind of benevolent dictatorship way that there is only

one ultimate decision-maker and that this whole project has to stay

together, it has to come here, and we must combine rather than

diversified. For those who don't know, this is a story that emerges

out of the taming Of the Shrew, and it is about a separated couple in

1948 putting on a musical version. Immensely original on Cole Porter's

part because it is indeed about an all-important first performance of

the show, in which the singers and the actors offstage are having a

more temperamental time than the characters on stage and therefore

their shenanigans begin to spillover on stage. It is very

reminiscent of that great farce by Michael Frayn, were on stage and

off stage get mixed up together, but Cole Porter was doing it for

two years before. You have kept it very much rooted in 1948 which is

interesting because there was one difficult aspect to Kiss Me Kate,

which is that halfway through the husband's thanks his wife, and then

there is this humour about how she used to soar to sit down. Are we

laughing and domestic violence? She ends up as the surrendered wife.

What seems fine in 1948 doesn't make you squirm a little bit in

2012. There can be no doubt that the character of the wife has

provoked him and struck him repeatedly. She has belted him

across the face repeatedly and finally he gets his own back.

Shakespeare in the taming Of the Shrew set out a writer more story

rather than a kind of political story about the Battle of the sexes,

and I think it is what Cole Porter does as well. There are these

wonderful standard songs. Too Darn Hot... And then once brilliant

comic songs. It is a great show. Very briefly, you started this in

Chichester. I know Ian McKellen has been expressing some worries about

what is happening in provincial theatre in this country, and asking

whether we will have the new great directors and actors coming through

and do you share those worries? do. There is nothing new, it is a

kind of deja-vu when someone starts to hear about threat of cuts in the

arts and it is very short-sighted. London is generally regarded as the

theatre centre of the world, it is something the British do

fantastically well, but that means it is an extraordinary component in

the tourist business of so many thousands of people come to this

country because they want to see the theatre. That has to be

invested in, but not in terms of individual shows. It is the future

that has to be invested in, and it is the rare companies and the

regional theatres that give opportunity and training to the

next generation. Thank you. Europe, the Middle East, Iran,

Afghanistan - and now calls for intervention in Mali. The Foreign

Secretary has a vast in-tray. William Hague joins me now from

North Yorkshire - good morning, and I suppose we have to start with

Europe. Are you clear in your mind The Prime Minister and I have set

out our positions on this. He will speak further about it at the

appropriate time. Enormous changes are happening in Europe, partly

because of the crisis in the eurozone which may change the

relationship between the countries in the European Union. We have also

said we want to improve our relationship. Last election, the

Conservative Party said we wanted to return some powers to the United

Kingdom. We believe that sometimes less is more in Europe. Doing less

in Europe is better for this country and other countries. When

we see house that crisis plays out, and we have tried to improve our

relationship with Europe, that will be the time to get fresh consent

from the British people. The best way to do that would be with a

referendum. We were our policies in the coming years. Can I ask you

about the audit of European powers, or competencies, you have announced

and have undertaken as a government? That sounds quite a

neutral thing. Does this lead inevitably and rightly, in European

in, to a shopping-list of power as you are determined to repatriate?

It should lead to a balanced, informed debate. It is a review of

a balance of competences. It is the biggest exercise any country has

taken about the impact of competent and law on how decisions are made.

That should help or the political parties at the next general

election to be properly informed. It should help the people and media

of the country to see what the real arguments are - where there is the

strongest case for EU competence and the weakest case. I hope it

will lead to that well-informed debate that we are going to need to

have. As I've said in the last answer, when we come to the right

point, the fresh consent of the British people will be required.

lot of your colleagues will think, they are kicking it into the long

grass as usual. It is delay, the usual story. What about the notion

of having a referendum ahead of the negotiation? Possibly ahead of the

election? So that the British government can go into an election

and so we have the will of the British people on our backs.

negotiations that have just taken place - the Prime Minister has done

an outstanding job. It is not necessary to have a referendum to

show where we stand. We want spending to be held down. Whatever

set of negotiations, I am not sure people would want a whole string of

referendums. We were set out our policy on this. The Prime Minister

will set out our policy on this. We have no difficulty representing in

a very hard, tough and effective way, the interests of people in

Europe. When you look at a radical lack of economic competitiveness of

a lot of the West at the moment, and you look at how much of our

trade is with the rest of the world rather than the EU, do you think it

is still the case that it would be a disaster for us economically to

actually leave the union rather than stay in? If they are going to

go for a deeper union, we are going to have a pretty big, existential

choice to make. This partly depends on what you are saying in your

question. If they're going for a deeper union, that changes the

relationship between European countries. We're setting out our

positive vision of the European Union. I did so to the Germans in a

speech in Berlin a month ago - deepening and widening the single

market and improving trade. Having more free-trade agreements with the

rest of the world and dealing with other powers, like Russia, on big

issues like the Iranian nuclear programme. At the same time,

accepting, as others just saying, that sometimes less is more. Less

can be done at the centre. That is a positive vision of the European

Union. Finally, a European question. The unusual thing at this summit

was that France and Germany were apart. How significant is that for

the general European picture? significant, you are right about

that. There was no agreed Franco's - German approach to the summit in

advance. -- Franco-German approach. There was a very firm alliance

between Sweden, the UK, the Netherlands and also working close

with Germany to bring down some of the outlandish expectations about

the European budget. It is significant and may be significant

for the future. Any idea that Britain was isolated at such a

summit is way off the mark. We were working very closely with those

countries I mentioned. Do you take the view of some of your colleagues,

such as Michael Gove, that any state regulation of the press is

inherently dangerous and should be resisted? Well, I am a big

supporter of press freedom, as I have said before. As indeed is

Michael Gove. What you're getting at is how we will react to these

Leveson report which is out shortly. We have to read the report. The

Prime Minister has not seen the report yet. A newspaper is saying

we are set for this battle and that battle about it but none of us have

seen the report yet. I am a big supporter of the freedom of the

press but I am a big supporter of reading something before I

pronounce on it. We will have to do that. From that philosophical

viewpoint, you have to err on the side of freedom. Let's turn to the

Middle East where it has been an appalling period. Are you concerned

that after all the optimism of the Arab Spring, as indeed David

Miliband put it, we're entering an Islamist autumn? People like

President North Sea are trying to grab more state powers in Egypt and

a lot of is a must implement -- Islamist influence among opposition

groups and we have to tread more carefully. Of course we have to

tread carefully. Each country behaves in a different way. Each

crisis is different from the others. Nevertheless, they have something

in common - people who do want what we want for our country - economic

success, dignity, a peaceful way of life. We must respect that and keep

some faith with those people - millions of people who want those

things. We must understand this process will throw up endless

crises, conflicts and difficulties over a long period of time. I do

not think we should lose faith in the Arab Spring. Isn't it now time

for a much greater renewed effort to bring Israel and hummus together,

involving the United Nations, involving Europe, more people than

the original quartet? Certainly including Arab countries. It is

time for a huge effort on the Middle-East peace process. This is

what I have been particularly calling for. The United States mush

showed the necessary leadership on this in the coming months. They

have crucial leverage with Israel that no other country has. Yes, it

does need the very active support of European nations and Arab

nations to create incentives and disincentives for all involved, to

make sure this last chance - we're coming to the final chance maybe -

for aid to state solution -- for a two state solution and the conflict

to be resolved. In the Government, we will keep conversations with the

Americans about these things private. One form or another,

whatever personal form it takes, we do look to the United States to

give a decisive lead on fares in the coming months. After the tragic

conflict in Gaza in the coming days, if it is possible to move on to the

opening up of access in and out of Gaza and stopping the smuggling of

weapons, some good could actually come of the awful crisis and

terrible casualties. Chances of us being involved in a humanitarian,

military-style operation a wrench - - around Syria as the crisis goes

on? We are not ruling anything out in our options for Syria in the

coming months. We are stepping up the humanitarian assistance. We are

sending more through the opposition coalition to try to help people as

the winter approaches. Would you like to see a palace coup? That

depends what sort of Palace cook it is. There are people around Assad

who are just as bad, or worse, than him. It is not necessarily the

answer. Now for the news headlines. The Foreign Secretary, William

Hague, has told this programme that the Government wanted to reach the

conclusions before deciding what to do. He said his instinct was always

to her on the side of press freedom when it came to regulation. The

owner of the Independent newspaper, Ebvgeny Lebedev, said new rules to

regulate the press should be effective. Coming from Russia, he

said he was instinctively in favour of press freedom but the victims of

the phone hacking scandal should be listened to. I have great sympathy

with the victims of phone hacking - victims of the family's - the Dows

and the McCanns. If we are to stem the some form of regulation, it has

to be different from before and make sure that whatever happens

does not happen again. The next news on BBC1 is at midday. Back to

you Andrew. On the world music scene, artists are sometimes deeply

associated with a political movement, or struggle for

liberation. In the music of Tinariwen, the cause of the nomadic

Tuareg people of the Sahara has found expression. The band was

formed back in the 1980s in It has gained a growing

international following. The musicians went back to the desert

to record the album. The situation in Northern Mali is pretty grim. We

will hear from two members in a moment. Next week we will be