18/11/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome. It strikes me, not for the first time,

that we are an inconsistent country. Everyone says they despise

politicians and they would like to do horrible things to them. Then

one politician, the Tory MP Nadine Dorries, goes off to Australia to

get herself covered in maggots and cockroaches, eats disgusting bits

of floppy animals and generally makes an embarrassing spectacle of

herself, and everyone pretends to be outraged. Come on! What more

could any politician do to publicly humiliate themselves? Well, apart,

I suppose, from standing as a police commissioner. And that's

enough Nadine. Unless she features in the paper review. That's up to

our trio of wise owls this morning - the former head of the Army, Sir

Mike Jackson, the Times sketch writer, Anne Treneman, and the

music promoter and entrepreneur, Harvey Goldsmith. MPs return to

Westminster tomorrow to a great bank of storm clouds, building up

at home and abroad. Here, the number claiming benefits is up.

Inflation's over target and the growth forecasts have again been

downgraded with grim warnings of a possible triple dip recession. The

Business Secretary, Vince Cable, is here. His ally, Lord Oakeshott says

Liberal Democrat ratings are flat on the floor. So, what will lift

them - the mansion tax? Finding a way to make Starbucks, Google and

Amazon pay their fair whack of tax? We'll find out. Abroad, there's

another Euro summit this week, as a poll today shows most British

people would now vote to leave the EU. The Tory rebel, David Davis, is

here with some advice for David Cameron, as he struggles to freeze

the EU budget and cope with rising euroscepticism. Labour also got a

new tone on Europe, though I'll be asking the Shadow Foreign Secretary,

Douglas Alexander, too for his take on the latest murderous exchanges

between Israel and Hamas, as the whole region again seems to shake.

That is plenty of storm clouds for one morning, I reckon. And we do

have a quite extraordinary and much happier tale from the London jazz

festival of a man in his 70s, who has arrived to play a string of

major sold out concerts - having spent almost all the past 40 years

in total obscurity. All will be explained when I talk to Sixto

Rodriguez, and we hear a little of Lots to chew through, lots to

listen to, but first the news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. The

World Health Organisation says hospitals in Gaza are now

overwhelmed with casualties and running short of medical supplies,

as Israel's bombardment of Gaza continues into a fifth day. There

have been repeated air strikes and shelling from Israeli warships,

producing multiple explosions across Gaza City. Health officials

say 48 Palestinians and three Israelis have been killed since

Wednesday. It may be dark and seemingly quiet in Gaza but then

comes this. Another night after another day in a crisis which is

taking its toll. What we adhering from our staff on the ground at the

moment is that their own children are suffering extreme levels of

stress and distress. It is only a tiny percentage of what children in

the entire region of going through at the moment. Yesterday, the

Israeli military released a video on the strike at the headquarters

of the Hamas minister in Gaza. One of 200 attacks as Palestinian

fighters sent at least 100 rockets in the opposite direction. One

reached Tel-Aviv but was intercepted. Before the overnight

shelling, the Egyptian President said intensive efforts were being

made with both sides and there were signs of a possible ceasefire soon.

He added there were no guarantees. Close to the border with Gaza,

Israeli troops and armoured vehicles are a massing. They were

not be drawn on the suggestion of a ground invasion. For now, the

assault is by air and by sea. Our correspondent joins us now live

from Gaza. What more can you tell us about what is happening now?

has been an eventful morning. There were not many Palestinian rockets

going out last night. Several militants have been firing rockets

towards Israel this morning. It was a busy and noisy night overnight. A

lot of firing by gunboats at targets in Gaza City and around the

Palestinians strip. They say all these were legitimate targets.

Whether or not that his justification for hitting the two

media buildings is not yet clear. Two media buildings including

several Western based organisations were hit. There has been a protest

by the Foreign Press Association against the targeting of what are

clearly media buildings. It has been an eventful night and a fairly

busy morning. There is still talk of a ceasefire. Also talk from the

Egyptian leadership and also talk of a ground offensive. What cherry

Heering? We do not know. -- what are you hearing? Lots of damage has

been done to the infrastructure of Hamas and other organisations.

Everyone is asking whether the attempts to reach a ceasefire in

Cairo frail, will the Israelis go on to phase two and launch a ground

invasion? -- frail. Three Israelis have also been killed. The big fear

is, if there were to be a land invasion - the ground operation -

and there would be more civilian casualties. Thank you very much.

Distraught families and angry demonstrators have prevented

members of the Egyptian government from visiting the site where 50

children were killed in an accident on a railway line yesterday. The

children died when their nursery school bus was hit by a train at a

level-crossing near Manfaloot, south of Cairo. The man in charge

of the barriers has been arrested following reports he left them open

and was asleep. The Transport Minister has also resigned. Here,

MPs are to get another chance to decide whether prisoners should be

allowed to vote. They will discuss the issue on Thursday - a day

before the Government has to decide whether to comply with a ruling

from the European Court of Human Rights, which says the current

blanket ban is unlawful. The British car maker, Jaguar Land

Rover, has been given the go-ahead to open its first manufacturing

site in China. The project, which is based north of Shanghai, will be

in partnership with Chinese car maker Chery Automobile. The two

companies will assemble models tailored specifically for the

Chinese market. That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the

headlines just before 10am. Back to you. Thank you, Naga. I wonder what

a specifically Chinese land Rover looks like. Now for the paper

The Prime Minister has a new fixer. He did the job for Boris Johnson.

The Observer has Sarah Teather, the diminutive but outspoken former

Liberal Democrat minister, saying the benefit cap is immoral and

divisive. In the Sunday Telegraph, it says public schools are being

demonised and has an interview with Ed Miliband, who says Euro-sceptics

are right sometimes. A bit of change of tone. An interesting

story from Scotland on Sunday which says that Scottish universities

will change the rules. If you come from a poor background, you do not

necessarily have to get the grades you have been asked for to get a

place at university. Like many papers, the Independent on Sunday

is talking about Gaza. And with me to review the papers are Mike

Jackson, plus Anne Treneman and Harvey Goldsmith. A big week for

Europe in Britain. They raise the poll same 56% of Britons would vote

to quit the EU. -- there is a pull. I think if there were a referendum,

BPCC has also been in the news, if you had a vote, the turnout would

be over 90%. If you give people something to vote on they're

interested in and have a feeling about... One thing I find

interesting about this is, something like 40% of Lib Dems -

the most pro-European party - even they would vote to go out. This

issue seems to be all over the place. There seems to be a real gap

opening up between the political elite and the rest of the country.

I think so. I also think one of the big issues we have got is that

explanation is not given to most people. There is too much confusion

about. If you do not really understand the truth about the

European Community and, particularly, about the PCC,

exactly what the rollers and what they are there to do and who you

are voting for, you are going to expect a low turnout. Another huge

story today. It is the appalling 4th day of the exchange of rocket

fire and bombs and so on between Gaza and Israel. Yes. I was struck

by the cartoon in the Independent, whereby we have an Israeli soldier,

a Palestinian guerrilla, if I am using the right terminology. He

started it, no he did not, you started it. A sad woman and a child

saying, I do not think they will ever stop. Rather depressing but I

think a rather accurate pictorial representation of what I hope is

not yet another major brand of hostility. From the military

perspective, what people have to remember, is how small is where

this and how open to rocket attacks on all sides, I guess. Indeed. What

has happened in recent years is that the ability of the

Palestinians to reach deeper into Israel with it longer-range

missiles, some appear to be supplied by Iran, has grown.

Israeli vulnerability is clearly heightened their bite. I always

remember an Israeli saying to me, we can only afford to lose once.

Yes. But it looks like it will go on and arm. I fear. There were

encouraging comments on the news that there was an Egyptian

initiative to a tent some sort of ceasefire. There are continuing

talks that they want all the time between the two sides. -- that go

on. Then rocket start to fall. Something like 5000 rockets shot

into Israel since January. If they were fired into England from France

you would get fed up with it after a while. There are continuing talks

that go on. Like everything, the vast majority of the population on

both sides do not want this - they want peace. A group of people do

not want to end it. Part of the problem will be Syria. First, let's

go back to another British story. You have chosen the BBC. Lot of

coverage over the position of the chairman. I think the Sunday Times

has been having a field day about getting its own back on the BBC.

Today there is a large spread about saying that Lord Patten has paid

off the executive that have been let go, fired or was signed, with

too much money. Reading the story, the underlying issue is there seems

to be a blurred role about the difference between what is the role

of the trust and what is the role of the executive board. The Times

on the one hand is blaming the Trust for not taking control of it.

One would be seen that is the role of the executive board. In terms of

what the power of the trustees and who is on it, which is something

that always bothers me, to some extent, with all of these large

boards, somehow government always hires and the good, the great and

the useless. They do not find the experts who know anything about the

job in hand. We have that in politics are actually. Experts are

too busy getting on with what they are expert at and earning money.

is saying that Lord Patten is paying off the various executives

with too much money. That does not seem to be right. It is basically

saying that trust has overall responsibility. I am not sure how

that works. Let's go on to the issue of, should prisoners be

allowed to vote in elections? It Yes, basically we are heading for a

cataclysmic head with the European Court of Human Rights on this.

David Cameron said it makes him sick, the idea of a prisoner of

voting. They have so there must be some sort of human right on this

level. Apparently there is a deadline. To me, the words deadline

and European Court of Human Rights, they keep moving those deadlines,

anyway that will be another big issue. And you have a solution to

this conundrum? I think they should only be allowed to vote in Police

Commissioner elections. There by getting the vote sport in that and

having expertise! They know what they are voting on. That is my

solution to the whole problem. talk about what is in the papers,

but what is not in the papers is also quite interesting sometimes.

Remarkably little coverage of Syria. It shows how we can handle one

crisis at a time, but not so real. Yes, in the car this morning I was

looking for something on Syria and is not really there. There are some

interesting commentary pieces as to how the so-called Arab Spring is

playing into this new Middle East kaleidoscope and the pattern of

what will emerge. Syria is in a much was place that Libya was when

the decision was taken last year so that in itself says something. We

now have an increasing number of refugees in increasingly wretched

circumstances. A you saw perhaps your successors comments about the

possibility of us becoming involved in policing the border, creating

safe havens - what do you make of that? For it is the job of the

chief of defence staff to implement whatever direction he is given by

the duly elected government. One would be surprised if he hadn't

been thinking along those lines. The decision rests properly with

the government, and not just this government, it would have to be

many others. I'm afraid I predict a worsening of the humanitarian

situation, let alone the violence in Syria. We may get to the

something must be done point. the West armed the rebels, what is

the effect of that? It is clearly taking sides, but we have done that

before. Largely them is a parallel with Libya, when we assisted the

so-called rebels. There are choices, arming and training is one for

example. Imposing a no-fly zone is another possibility, rather at all

order. It would be much more difficult than Libya, but these

would be military choices which will be put in front of the

political decision-makers. probably some time over this winter,

if you are right about the humanitarian situation. If I would

love to be proved wrong. People think of it as a hot and Sunday

place, in the winter it is no on the high ground, pretty miserable.

Isn't it the case that the UN and the other nations that can help

still don't know which of the rebel groups to help with. Although

nothing is ever talked about in Libya, my understanding is that in

Libya it is just as bad now as it was during the war, where the rebel

factions themselves are fighting each other. That is the concern in

Syria - there are so many different factions, collectively called the

rebels. The question of what if we hadn't, or what would have happened

had we not is impossible to answer. For it is the same with Iraq.

is clear in the now several interventions we have been involved

with since the end of the Cold War is that the military side is

relatively quick. Then you have a vacuum, a political vacuum, and we

all know our physics, forces fill the vacuum and it is messy. It will

never be anything else, certainly for a while. Let's turn to another

domestic story, simply called gulp in the Independent on Sunday.

basically about the effect of Twitter, saying that you should

think before you tweet. It says about Sally Bercow, who has a habit

of making the headlines every time she wakes up. But also Twitter

could be liable to be sued as the publisher of some comments. It says

in the body of the story - has it fundamentally changed the law of

libel for users and mainstream media? It says the bureau of

investigative journalism, if they hadn't tweeted, Lord McAlpine would

not have come out. This is going to completely change the atmosphere on

Twitter, isn't it? It will have a massive potential effect. I like

Twitter but I do Haverstock Gatt mechanism, and I think that is one

of the problems with Twitter, that the passing bandwagon is very hard

not to jump on to for some people. Basically it is about self-control,

and knowing facts before you accuse people. That is an important

political story. It might be said for most important political story

at the moment is getting the big companies to pay tax. Starbucks,

Google, Amazon, and more companies being named today by different

newspapers. A long list of companies not paying their fair

share. The Sunday Mirror headline is these key board members of

Starbucks taking away fortunes, and in the UK declaring �31 million

losses. I have caught up my loyalty card. I went every day, and I

watched that guy, Troy, before the committee and it was gobbledegook.

They really made it - I will pay everything in Switzerland, I don't

know. It is an elaborate way, but it isn't just Starbucks and it

seems like Google and Amazon and Facebook and so on have become very

adept in their structure that they don't want to pay tax anywhere, and

equally they don't seem to have much of the social responsibility

programme, and they may say we give so much of this and the other. It

is an issue. Very briefly, Afghanistan, it is always in the

papers. We had Paddy Ashdown saying a couple of days ago it is time to

come out. It is not working, it is not worth another life. I am not

entirely with him. I read his article very carefully and we know

each other quite well. There is an article over the concerns of so-

called green on blue, that is killings of coalition soldiers die

either Afghan soldiers or mainly policeman, which is great concern

also when you think about it it is quite a clever tactic by they

position. It puts the wind up people. Yes, but that is not a

reason to pursue, to clearly laid down a timetable on strategy. Going

now is not going to help anybody. Thank you very much for that. To

the weather forecast. It has been dismal in the south, but still

quite mild. What is the prospect for the rest of the UK?

The weather is in no mood to change once again. The sunshine is back

but it is cold. There was a widespread frost to start the day,

widespread frost to start the day, but there is a lot of sunshine

around. It will not do much for the temperature today. We are going

between weather systems, just one glance to the Atlantic shows a lot

of cloud coming our way and that will turn things wetter tonight and

into tomorrow. It is still wintry over the hills and Scotland and the

cloud increases over western areas in the afternoon. The sum turning

hazy across Wales and western England, still bright blue skies

across the eastern England. The temperatures are no big change from

yesterday, when we got as high as 15 degrees in the south-east. Still

some showers in north-west Scotland, but it does turn very wet through

tonight and into tomorrow morning. Tomorrow a very different day -

more cloud around and stronger wind, setting us thought for a very wet

week to come. We will see very windy weather as well, but it will

be mild if you can cope with the wind and rain.

David Cameron goes to Rainey Brussels this week, where he will

be fighting against a move to increase Britain's annual

contribution to the EU. He once the budget frozen or reduced but this

will put him on a collision course with his fellow European leaders.

Here the mood seems ever more Euro- sceptic. David Cameron's at one

time rival David Davis will this week suggest the way forward for

the party and he is with me now. Good morning. Let's start with the

events of the coming week. David Cameron has been sent to negotiate

with a pretty firm message from the House of Commons that he has to

come back with a freeze preferably come back with a freeze preferably

in real terms. There is very little chance of this, isn't there? Yes,

it is pretty tough. His final recourse is a pretty weak veto, and

if that doesn't work then you are negotiating leverage is cut to

smithereens. He has got pretty much the whole institutional structure

against him. They all want to have at least an inflation level budget.

That is ridiculous - when you look at Greece and Portugal, for them to

be protected really smacks of an international gravy train. Another

disappointment, bad headlines here, a lot of muttering about having a

referendum some time which almost nobody will believe because it is

said so often. Nobody will believe it. Every single party has not

delivered on a referendum. They may have their reasons, but the public

will feel like two and will not believe any more promises on a

referendum. What is your recommendation, doctor? One more

piece of analysis - David and the rest of the Tories have quite

understandably viewed this as very dangerous so they balked at it and

the truth is they no longer can. With the eurozone crisis, the

answer to that - more federalism - they can't walk away any more. That

is the first point, that you can't avoid this problem. There is going

to be a referendum, whoever is in power over the next five years,

because the public will demand that. How can we turn this to our

advantage? We have got to some have dramatically changed our

relationship with Europe. So you need a discussion, an agreement,

presumably by the government, on the list of powers that need to be

repatriated. A shopping list. yes, you need that pretty much in

the next 12 months so we know what we're doing. There was a

negotiating window here now because they want things as well. You want

David Cameron to initiate that, say this is our national menu, and then

what? Then I want him to put that to the British people, to say here

is a mandate referendum. Do you approve of it? I suspect we would

get 70% support for the sorts of things most people want. We don't

want Europe deciding our laws. you would like this dumb when? M

very soon, in the next year, before the next European election.

recent is twofold. Firstly it is important for the election, but

secondly it gives the government a big negotiating lever. The only

time in the last 20 years when the European Union has conceded to the

nation's stance, giving back powers or conceding components of treaties,

is when it has been a referendum. The French have done it with

neutrality, forcing the change in the treaty effectively. The people

say again and again, the troubled is it is not practical politics. We

go looking for that radical shift, effectively back to the old Common

Market sort of relationship. It is just not practical, we will be

I am not the only person to be saying something like this. Others

argue the same sorts of thing. We know what the negotiation is like.

It is tough. After the negotiation, you have this referendum. You put

to people two perfectly decent options. You say this is what

you're going to have for the next decade or so and this is the other

option - to leave. That is not frightening. To scupper UKIP, but

Prime Minister must commit to a specific date to do this in a

Mashable time and not just talk about it. He needs to put it in law

and says -- and say, when we put it in law we will have the outcome for

the people. Is there a groundswell behind this idea? There by

youngsters who have begun to pick up on a mandate referendum and the

double referendum idea. It is beginning to get purchase. Now is

the time. It is an historic opportunity and we should take it.

Now, here is a story. It's the start of the 70s and a young singer

from Detroit is being hailed as the new Bob Dylan. He records two LPs -

great reviews but don't really sell - so the record label drops him. He

goes back to life as a jobbing builder and demolition worker.

However, completely unknown to him, on the other side of the world, in

South Africa, his music has become fantastically popular. He is up

there with the Beatles. His South African fans think he's dead. But,

25 years on, thanks to the new magic of the internet, one of them

tracks him down. Still quietly working on broken down houses in

Detroit. Rodriguez, who has never played to more than a handful of

people in his life, goes to Cape Town, is given a hero's welcome and

Finally, the story is made into a film - Searching for Sugar Man. The

movie wins a string of awards and Rodriguez is not just feted in

South Africa. Music buffs worldwide learn of this amazing tale. Welcome.

I am happy to be here. You did these wonderful albums and they are

fantastic. It does not work for the obscure reasons of the music

industry and you go back to being a labourer. I go back to demolition,

construction and renovation of homes and buildings. Do you ever

have songs going through your head, thinking, if my life had gone

another way, I might have been making albums? Music is always in

my head. You worked away and had no idea that, in South Africa, you

were a rock god. I learned about it in 1996 when it was explained to me

there was this fan-base of Afrikaans. In 1998, I toured and it

was true. We were playing to 5000 cities. From nothing to 5000 cities

it is quite a jump. You're playing small clubs originate. You're

working as a labourer but you're interested in politics as well. --

small clubs originally. Detroit has more than halved in population

since the great days of the car industry. There are lots of

challenges in an urban setting. I have seen the Forties to the now. I

remember that City when they had 2.5 million people and out that are

about 100,000. It is quite a difference. -- and now there are

about 100,000. You get on a plane and suddenly you are playing in

front of huge stadiums. Way you can send you would not be able to do

it? My stuff is Major's and miners and easy lyrics. I would not have

trouble with that. I do it at times. It must be strange seeing this vast

crowd. It was epic. South Africa is a beautiful country - gorgeous

people. Giving you have been selling huge numbers of records are

known for this time, are you wealthy? Did you never quite get

your hands on the money? I am a musician and we create revenue that

night. We have awards and long-term things as well. I move on. The best

way to go it is forward. To talking about going forward, you arrived in

London to play a concert which instantly sold out. Another one was

announced and instantly sold out. Four concert you are doing now and

all sold out. -- concerts. London is a cultural centre. They come out

and see what is happening. people who do not know your music,

how would you describe it? It is singer-songwriter and has late

60s/early 70s tone to it, doesn't it? Today's music is a lot of vocal

distortion and instrument distortion. I own vocal against

guitar and that is my style. I used musicians. We recorded hit in 1971

in Lansdowne Road. -- a week recorded here. We will hear some of

the music towards the end of the programme. Thank you for the

opportunity for the interview. out of Israel overnight remains

grim. More shelling and rocket attacks on Gaza have produced

further civilian casualties, who is retaliating against whom recedes as

the violence escalates. And over another border in Syria, Britain

edges nearer to the French position of recognising the opposition there

as the legitimate government - a I am joined by Douglas Alexander.

In a sense, this is Groundhog Day. More rockets and mortar attacks and

more counter-attacks and so on. Is this particular around significant?

Is it worth than others? The scale of human suffering is significant.

The Middle East is more fragile and febrile than at any point in the

last 50 years. We have been clear there needs to be a sensation to

violence. We have urged the Secretary to the United Nations to

travel to the region. We have seen this so many times in the past.

Tony Blair was the special envoy for a long time and seemed to be

banging his head on a series of walls. There is no military

solution. There needs to be a willingness for the violence to end

and the talking to begin. In that sense, Tony has done important work

in recent years. Over the last 40 years, of the real breakthroughs

have come when the parties and sows went to see a two state solution. -

- at the parties themselves. The talk about a piece process. There

has not been one of those in years of. That is why the latest round of

violence does not offer a way forward. You add into this Syria

and the hugely and stable position. We seem to be edging towards

recognising the opposition as the formal government of Syria. Is

there a danger that, inside the opposition, there are extreme

elements and we maybe legitimising them and arming them as well?

of the difficulties in Syria is that over 19 months we have not

seen the emergence of legitimate leadership. We have not seen it in

Syria. It is right the British government recognises the Syrian

national coalition as the legitimate voice of the people. It

is the right response to are the people -- their needs to be a

credible plan. We should support unity. Including lots of Christians.

That is why the need unity among the opposition but not arming the

opposition. -- we need. We need to see the emergence of an inclusive

and credible plan for transition. Recognition is an important step in

the right direction. What happens if Israel does go for a land

invasion of Gaza? I have caught for an end to the violence. A ground

invasion would give Hamas of what it is wanting. We will see more

loss of lies. I was the first British minister into Gaza. -- loss

of lives. 100 Palestinians were being killed for every Israeli

killed. It simply does not make sense were there to be an

escalation of the violence were we need it to end and be talking to

begin. -- for bed to be. A change in tone from Ed Miliband in the

Sunday Telegraph. He says the Euro- sceptics were right about a few

things. I wonder if this is the moment for people like yourself in

the Labour Party to formally apologise for all those years in

which she portrayed the Euro- sceptics as kind of dandruff slept

unit -- lunatics. The truth is we are proud of Britain's role in

Europe over recent decades. The Continent was divided by World War

twice been the 20th century. Change is coming to Europe. We will remain

a pro-European, pro-reform party. We see the future for Britain as

being reforming in Europe and not exiting from Europe. A growing

number of Conservatives believe the latter is the way forward.

argument by David Davis was that you are never going to get any

movement on the fundamentals unless you really have the wind up

Brussels because you have had a referendum or whatever. That is a

fair point. I like him but he was talking nonsense. Nobody believes

and narrow agenda of repatriation, rather than a broad process of

reform, is going to be the way forward. The gap between what

Conservative backbenchers were judged acceptable and what could be

negotiated is unbridgeable. That is why David Cameron is in the bizarre

position of arguing for an in-in referendum. He cannot say what

happens when you shred allowances to Brussels and they say, no thanks.

If you do not do something dramatic and radical like that, you are

drawn again and again, as you have been in the past, to the Franco-

German agenda and it is quite clear that because of the crisis, deeper

integration, more money for the central budget is now seen as

absolutely essential. If the alternative is not that kind of

referendum, what is it? We voted two weeks ago for reform of the

European budget. It is a losing argument and not a winning one. The

measure of our commitment to Europe is ever larger budgets for Europe.

Bobby should be arguing for add the European summit is fundamental

reform within the European budget. -- what we should be arguing for

within the European summit. There is a big agenda for reform and the

Prime Minister does not seem to be making that case. Now, another

politician watching European politics like a hawk is the

Business Secretary. But Vince Cable has issues even closer to home -

that rather grim warning from the Bank of England governor about the

long and winding road to recovery - and more austerity, which helps

explain why the coalition isn't hugely popular and his own party.

The Liberal Democrats came third in this week's Corby by-election. --

fourth. Mr Cable is talking tomorrow to the CBI about growth

Know, I think is right the Prime Minister takes a hard line on the

Budget. That is unacceptable to those in the government having to

make the cuts that the European Union is not been properly

controlled. It is right. I am going to Brussels tomorrow as it happens

to argue the case for further advances in the single market,

which produces jobs for many British people. We have to keep

pushing for reform, it needs to reform, but we can do it from

inside the system. You will be talking about the importance of

science and engineering, supporting industry, and I want to come on to

that, but first we have the small matter of the Autumn Statement and

more austerity going to be required. The Conservatives are very clear

that they want to freeze more of the welfare budget, but you have

been - your party - have been trying on the other side to make

sure the rich will be paying more as a kind of quid pro quo. How have

you got on? They that is a good summary of where the negotiations

are. There needs to be a sense of fairness and the better-off people

in society have got to contribute The principle has ride at those

people have got to pay more, and that includes companies. We have

had this appalling story of abuse of company taxation, but on your

general proposition there is no need to pull additional austerity

on top of the programme we have already got. We have got to deficit

reduction programme, we will stick to it. It has got to be supported,

where their governor of the Bank of England comes in, and I will be

talking about investing heavily in science and technology, having an

Industrial Strategy, getting banks' lending. That is why we also have

the new business bank. When it comes to taxation, there has been a

serious row inside the coalition about what kind of tax it should be.

George Osborne has ruled out mansion tucked publicly, which

leaves the possibility of higher stamp duty or possibly higher

council tax bands. Is that the area you would expect to see changed?

know it is under discussion, and the devil is in the detail, but it

is right that we do not tax the wealthy. It is the obvious place to

go. Yes, added his further because property can't run-off to

Liechtenstein. Speaking of running off to other tax jurisdictions,

let's ask about this story this week - Starbucks, Google, Amazon -

they have all been in the frame for not paying their fair share of tax.

This is a fundamental issue of the rights of government versus

international companies. Is there any way of forming some new

international agreement whereby you can make these companies pay their

fair share? It is certainly difficult because we need companies

for coming from all over the world and we need investment. While they

are here, if they make profits, they should pay tax. There is

nothing more galling to medium sized companies when we find these

people dodging it. Our own tax authorities have got to be tough on

things like royalty payments, where a lot of the subterfuge takes place,

but the big question is whether you can get wider global agreement. The

Chancellor has been talking to the Germans about getting a common

approach to tax havens. When you have those conversations, is are

there any sense of urgency because it seems that a lot of people are

making sacrifices, paying higher tax, a lot of small businesses,

many of whom are on the edge of being put out of business by these

large companies, and it seems grotesque. Yes, and it is

unacceptable. It is also quite difficult to drill down to what the

problems are. Starbucks claimed they are actually making losses in

the UK. You would need some pretty intensive investigation by the

Inland Revenue to find out exactly what is going on. What is going to

happen? As I say, you have got to have a combination of action at an

international level, which the Chancellor is pursuing with other

countries, and we have got to be for our own capacity to crackdown

on tax abuse here. You can understand the fury in Parliament

about this? Absolutely. Many businesses are struggling and they

are angry. Talking of both the economy more generally, it has been

suggested there are a lot of British businesses which are so

called zombie companies, in other words they are still there but they

are not making any money and only holding on by the skin of their

teeth because of very low interest rates. The minute the interest

rates go up, they will start to collapse - is that a serious worry?

Yes, some companies can't get access to credit. I think when we

get a serious recovery going, once you get demand expanding in the

economy, then companies will sell more, make more money, their

businesses become viable, but I think the point you're making,

which is when we get sustained recovery, and we are beginning to

get some encouraging signs. many. The there are, notably on the

employment front, and we can move towards normality. Let's address

the economy in a straightforward way. We have what has been called

the Long And winding Road, the possibility of a triple dip

recession. Everything has changed, has it not? We will not get the old

pattern, the old rhythm of a bit of austerity, everything gets better

again, you have the election and you're thanked by the voters - that

is not going to happen, is it? it isn't. This is not a temporary

attack of flu. We have heard the economic equivalent of a heart

attack, caused by the financial collapse of the system. It will be

very difficult getting out of it but we have got to be solid and

consistent in the way we deal with it, we have got to get the public

finances under control, but we have also got to support expansion of

the economy, short-term measures of maintaining demand, long-term

things like apprenticeships. Your party, no party can honestly go to

the electorate at the next election and save vote for us and everything

will be fine, the pain is over. Absalom not under think everybody

acknowledges that the need for restraint in public spending in

terms of public sector pay, taxation, these will continue to be

difficult for many years to come. I think the public will accept that

if they can see we are pursuing a strategy to get out of this, and if

they can see it is fair. The your former colleagues said in today's

paper for instance that the cap on welfare payments is harsh and

brutal and unfair. The what is immoral is demonising poor people.

The reason why there is a cap on benefits is mainly because of the

housing component. Housing benefit is escalating out of control,

effectively a subsidy to landlords. What can you do? You could

introduce rent control but that reduces supply creating more

problems so we have got to cap the housing benefit while at the same

time increasing the supply of affordable housing. Without that

you will have very serious consequences, which Sarah has

warned about. Your party has taken a very serious battering in Corby

and other places. Lord Oakeshott said you have lost two fifths of

the support you had at the general election. Is there any way of

starting to turn that round, in terms of the party? People talk

about the change of leader, from instance. People talk about you.

Let's not go there. If you look at what happened on Thursday, we

didn't do badly in the Corby by- election, we did much better in

Manchester and we won a whole series of by-elections from Labour

and from the Conservatives. The morale in the party is strong,

resilient. We have been through difficult periods before. I am

optimistic that it will stick with our agenda of economic reform,

combined with making ourselves different from the Tories on

taxation, this will come right. sticking with Nick? Indeed.

heard the earlier conversation about the EU, is there any part of

you that thinks, given the dramatic nature of the heart attack we have

suffered economically and the changes we have to make to get our

economy in a different direction, there might be a case of having a

much looser direction of Europe. Perhaps this is the time for a

rethink? We do need to focus a retention on markets outside the

European Union and the priority on trade, which is part of my

responsibility, is looking at the big emerging market. I don't think

there is an argument for suggesting we're open in a fundamental way our

relationship with the EU. Being part of the single market is

critical. Now over to the news headlines.

A World Health Organisation says hospitals in Gaza and now

overwhelmed with casualties and running short of medical supplies

after a fortnight of explosions. Israeli warships joined the

bombardment overnight, this damage to a tower block housing foreign

broadcasters. The shadow foreign secretary

Douglas Alexander said the UN secretary-general should travel to

the region. He said there was no military solution to the conflict

between Israel and the Palestinians and called on both sides to end the

violence. The business secretary Vince Cable has acknowledged public

outrage over multinational companies that pay minimal tax in

the UK. He said there would further

investigation into their tax affairs to make sure they are

paying the appropriate level of tax. The next news on BBC One is at

midday. We will get back to Andrew in a moment, but first let's look

at what is coming up after the programme.

Is Israel's military campaign a justifiable response to attacks?

Tax avoidance is killing British business - it may be legal, is it

moral? That is all we have got time for

this morning so thanks to my guest. Next week old be speaking to David

Miliband among many others. Please join me if you can. We leave you

this morning with Sixto Rodriguez, filmed exclusively for this show

during rehearsals yesterday. His # I wonder how many times you've

been had # And I wonder how many plans have gone bad # I wonder how

many times you had sex # I wonder do you know who'll be next # I

wonder l wonder wonder I do # I wonder about the love you can't

find # And I wonder about the loneliness