11/11/2012 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Remembrance Sunday - one of the most solemn days of the

year, when we recall those who died in huge global wars. A sense of

perspective, always useful including on a morning when this

organisation, the BBC, is engulfed in a crisis which is entirely self-

inflicted. The papers scrambled to catch up, their latest editions

carry the resignation last night of the BBC's boss George Entwistle. To

review them, I'm joined by the broadcaster Jonathan Dimbleby, who

speaks in The Observer of a rudderless BBC heading for the

rocks, as well as by the Europe Editor of Time Magazine Catherine

Mayer and Sir Max Hastings, the author and a former newspaper

editor himself. So the BBC's Director General may have resigned

after just 54 days in the job after a catastrophically wrong story by

the Newsnight programme wrongly accusing a former politician of

child sex abuse, just about as serious an allegation to make as it

gets. In today's programme, extended for Remembrance Sunday.

Lord Patten, chairman of the BBC Trust, said last night was one of

the saddest evenings of his public life. I'll be talking to Lord

Patten about the future of the Newsnight programme and why some

papers are gunning for him too. The controversy engulfing the BBC will

also be of concern to my next guest - the Home Secretary. I'll be

asking Theresa May whether she is now convinced by the need for a

single big inquiry into the slew of child abuse claims swilling round

public life. We'll talk too about the coming election of Police

Commissioners which hasn't so far exactly set the heather on fire.

Elsewhere, following Barack Obama's election victory I'll be speaking

to a top former White House lawyer about whether the President can

truly deliver on his agenda. And as we pay tribute to the fallen, what

will the impact be of cuts to military? I'll be asking the Chief

of the Defence Staff, General Sir David Richards, about the British

army and the possibility of our involvement in fighting in Syria.

And as she marks two decades as one of British folk music's top singer

songwriters, we've a track from Gentle stuff and we may need that

by the end of the programme. First though, it's over to Sally

Nugent for the morning's news headlines.

Good morning. The BBC's Director General, George Entwistle, has

resigned after just 54 days in the job. He had been under mounting

pressure over a Newsnight report on child sex abuse, which wrongly

implicated the former Conservative politician Lord McAlpine. The

programme, and the BBC, had already been criticised for shelving an

investigation into the Jimmy Savile abuse allegations. Our Home Editor

Mark Easton has more. With the BBC facing what he called a crisis of

trust, George Entwistle's task was to restore confidence with a series

of interviews but his hesitant performance has proved to be the

final acts of the director general who last night announced his

resignation just 54 days after taking the job. I have decided the

honourable thing to do is to step down as the Post of director

general. When appointed to the role, as 23 years' experience as producer

and leader at the BBC, I was confident the trustees had chosen

the best candidate for the post and the right person to tackle the

challenges and opportunities ahead. However, the wholly exceptional

events of the last few weeks have led me to conclude that the BBC

should appoint a new leader. Paying tribute to him, the chairman of the

BBC Trust Lord Patten said the corporation's editor in-Chief had

behaved with honour and courage. This is one of the saddest evenings

of my public life. At the heart of the BBC is its role as a trusted

global news organisations, and as the editor in chief of that news

organisation, George has very honourably offered us his

resignation because of the unacceptable mistakes and the

unacceptable shoddy journalism which has caused so much

controversy. Since his appointment in September, George Entwistle has

been overwhelmed by events, in the words of Lord Patten. The Jimmy

Savile scandal, the decision of Newsnight not to broadcast an

investigation into the affair, then the same programme which wrongly

implicated a politician in child abuse scandal. The head of BBC

audio and music, Tim Davie, a man without any journalistic experience

will take over temporarily as acting director general. Lord

Patten and George Entwistle may not have taken questions last night,

but profound questions for the corporation remain. It is in effect

now leaderless. Hospitals in England are being

invited to bid for part of a 25 million-pound fund to improve

maternity services. The extra money could be used for facilities such

as new birthing pools or rooms where partners can stay overnight.

The Royal College of Midwives has welcomed the extra investment but

says training more midwives should be the priority.

The consumer group Which? Has joined calls for a delay to

January's planned increase in fuel duty. MPs will vote on Monday on

whether to raise the tax by three pence per litre. But Which? Wants

them to reconsider, after 85% of people questioned for one of their

surveys said they were worried about rising prices.

People across Britain will fall silent at 11 o'clock this morning

to remember servicemen and women who have given their lives in war.

Prince Charles marked Remembrance Sunday in New Zealand, where he's

currently on an official visit with the Duchess of Cornwall. Later this

morning the Queen and members of Parliament will attend a wreath-

laying ceremony at the Cenotaph in London.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before

ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. As we heard in the news, the

Cenotaph will shortly be the focus for the national act of remembrance,

just as important as the dignitaries attending, even more so

are the veterans attending. Sophie is with them. Over to you. I am

here at the Horse Guards Parade, where the veterans are already

starting to gather. In total more than 9500 veterans and civilians

will be taking part in the March Past this morning to remember the

fallen. They will be forming in columns on the Horse Guards Parade,

then shortly after 10 o'clock moving across to Whitehall, where

large numbers of the public have already gathered. There are many

people who will be remembered today, among them 255 British servicemen

and women killed in the Falklands war. I am joined by Major-General

Jonathan Shaw who took part in the Falklands campaign. You were fresh

a to Sandhurst and found yourself in one of the bloodiest campaigns.

Yes, and it was a very short, sharp campaign, a classic old-style force

on force war. The intensity is shown in the figures. The battalion

lost 23 people last night and 47 injured. In my platoon we lost five

dead and 80 injured in one night's activity. It has left a mental and

physical effect on us for ever-more really. This is the first year you

will be taking part in the March Past, what does it mean to you?

it means a lot, it gives me the chance to remember the guy is in my

platoon I lost. Then we have the regimental legend got Murdoch,

those guys will love with us forever even though they died 30

years ago. It is a chance to give thanks for everything that happened.

It was a great night, a Great War, and a great regiment. You also went

back to the Falklands for the first time this year, didn't you? Yes, I

took my family back. I thought it would be a good way to round off my

career and it was very poignant. It allowed me to see the place it

began and put that arrest. What does it mean to people who are

still serving now, and to families who have lost loved ones to see

this kind of public recognition every year? I think it means a

great deal. Having said that, you can never heal the scars. I

remember them handing out the Queen Elizabeth medals recently at a

ceremony and it is quite evident that even 30 years on, the scars

are still there for them. It is important every year we should stop

and remember them. We should live our lives, but it is important to

look back and remember those who suffered. Many thanks. Now to the

front pages and there is just one story dominating the front pages.

Many of you may have the earlier editions because the story broke

very late, the resignation of George Entwistle. The Observer's

first edition, which has Jonathan's fears about the BBC on it, and then

that becomes George Entwistle quits. The same story in the Sunday

Telegraph - there is the first edition. This story is about

somebody who had a gun in his possession and has been jailed, but

that then becomes a very straightforward story about the BBC

boss quitting. Here is the first edition of the Sun, many of you

will have this one about Jimmy Savile. Then that becomes this

extremely brutal her blind. -- headlined. You have been a

newspaper editor, this is a very grim story. Down in flames after 55

days, a cannibal feet for newspapers, and it must be said

that although this is a very bad day for the BBC, it is still in

many ways a wonderful institution and one hopes when it comes over

the other side of this, it is not surprising the newspaper industry

itself is deeply alarmed about what Leveson will say in his report in

the next few weeks. This informs their attitude. The whole tone of

the newspapers is very strongly here is the BBC in a terrible mess

after editorial failures, and the newspaper industry is threatened

with statutory regulation. Catherine Mayer, you have chosen

yet more of the coverage. They raised an awful lot of it, a lot of

it focusing on a particularly embarrassing interview that George

Entwistle gave on the Today programme. You get the transcript

of that programme in almost every serious newspaper. You do, but what

I find useful is this piece about what happened with Newsnight

because that is the centre of the crisis. Listening to his interview

yesterday, I'd waited that it was a resignation letter because he was

talking about a... He said when people bring things to me, then I

engage. Coming from an organisation crisis, and you see this happened

so quickly - in 55 days - you have to do more than engage when people

draw your attention to things. Newsnight was at the centre of the

original problems and then he did not take control, did not pay

attention to what was going on. I am also interested in this small

piece in the Sunday Times about the former director general Mark

Thompson because this has international dimensions. We are

talking about what is happening with the press here, and you have

to remember the BBC is not only are fantastic institution, it is a

worldwide role model for public broadcasting. He is taking his job

as the chief executive in the New York Times tomorrow, Mark Thompson,

so this is a question of whether the ripples go abroad. Jonathan,

you expressed fears about what this could do to the BBC. Everyone

working for the BBC will hope the crisis is ending now, but it will

go on. It will be going on for a while, I said that before George

resigned. A lot of people who know George will feel extraordinarily

sorry for him. A thoroughly decent man and a very good BBC career. I

am struck by the malice and the relish of some of the newspaper

coverage. I think it is a very important thing to separate the

Jimmy Savile case from this. George did not need to go because of the

Jimmy Savile case under way. It may turn out the Newsnight turned out

to be wrong but it was a decision made in good faith, and it may turn

out it was a wise decision, we don't know. In this case George was

at the receiving end of nothing when he should have been knowing

everything, and that looks straight at the chain of command inside the

BBC. As I understand it, the key players who had been involved in

the Jimmy Savile inquiry were out of it. They were not allowed to

know anything about this programme being made. One of the issues I

think we have got to look at, before Lord Patten starts thinking

about who has got to be the next director general, is the job

chewable? When I was an editor I was responsible for about 3000

journalists and I found there to be a full-time job. It is physically

impossible for the Director General to supervise across the whole

spectrum of the BBC. I also think this is about the identity crisis

that the BBC has been in for many years now. It expanded in order to

try and keep across the different developments going on around it and

it is a bit confused about what it is there for. It is very noticeable

that the last three crises have all been around news programming. In

2003 you have Andrew Gilligan, 2007 you had something that should not

have been controversial which was the documentary on the Queen, where

it was just the presentation of the trailer for it that created the

Across the whole field, everyone talks about it is a problem of

public trust. Certainly the politicians are run bandwagons and

they say that no one trusts the BBC. Lots of newspapers do not want

people to trust the BBC. But the viewing public have a great deal of

trust. Look at the news coverage of Syria, the coverage of America,

China. Without flattering view too much, look at your series on the

history of the world. The BBC does great things. How is someone

supposed to be chief executive of an organisation of the size and

scale of the BBC in at a rapidly changing context and the

editorially responsible at the top of the pinnacle? Many of us who

have been involved with the BBC for years failed there is something

fundamentally wrong, at that the journalism is being desperately

squeezed, whereas there is this massive deadweight of management,

these faceless beings. Some of them get to the top of the corporation.

Some of us feel that the wrong people get to the top. The last

director general presided over cuts that had to take place. But the

cuts did not take place in management, but on the front line,

news and current affairs. It is the defining characteristic of the BBC.

To be fair, a lot of salaries were cut at the top of management.

but only because high up said, you have got to cut your salaries.

have chosen a story in the Mail on Sunday. We have referred to the

Leveson enquiry. Lots of the newspapers are waiting with bated

breath to see whether he will suggest statutory regulation.

there is a story here. It suggests that Lord Leveson will say that

there should be statutory regulation. We know because

politicians have made it clear that they are divided, members of the

Cabinet are divided. You have the Home Secretary coming on in just a

moment. We have the existing laws, if you're bugging someone's phone,

it is illegal. There are laws of defamation and libel. They are

being reformed. The question is can you reconcile the need to give

people the right to their own privacy, whoever they are, with the

right to have a free newspaper environment which is often

offensive, often vulgar, sometimes nasty, but is the essence of what

distinguishes a free society from a repressive one. Some of us are very

worried that Leveson has lost the plot. We must keep moving on.

American elections. This is about another large institution in crisis,

the Grand Old Party. The Observer is asking what the Republicans are

going to do, whether they're going to reinvent themselves, which is

one option, to try and chased the kind of votes that they did not get

this time, to be more inclusive. By 2050, white Americans will be in a

minority. There is a column in the Observer arguing that the Tories

have got to learn the lesson from the American election, they have

got to go for the centre if they wanted victory. I think there is

widespread agreement about that. The interesting point about what

you were saying, Catherine, is when can the Americans -- when can the

Republicans win if they cannot win now. They say they are outnumbered.

Interesting and poignant stories around the remembrance steam. You

have chosen one of them. When I watch it, I find it extraordinarily

moving to watch. This story about the Prince of Wales down under,

this is a reminder that it wasn't in Peel and Commonwealth War, not

just the British. This week celebrates those who died and

suffered at the Battle of El Alamein 50 years ago. Churchill

famously said, it is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the

end, but it is perhaps the end of the beginning. Some people believe

that that battle led to people dying in vain. I argue in my book

that what it actually, what that campaign in the desert dead, it was

pivotal to the cause of the Second World War, because it led to the

involvement of the United States, going into Italy from North Africa.

Both the Americans and the British needed a lot of practice before

they launched their campaign of taking Europe. You pointed that out

in your book. There will be survivors there this morning,

marching. I want to turn to a massive political story that we

have perhaps under reported in this country, the change of leadership

in China. This is buried in the papers. Over in China, at 10 year

changes happening, a change in leadership. This is the second

largest economy in the world and yet all the attention that we paid

to the US election, hardly anyone knows what is going on in China,

and that is because the Chinese are very good at managing the news. We

have a team up of people covering this election and they were given

all sorts of paraphernalia, but no information. It is very difficult

for journalists. We can all write about Mitt Romney, but with the

Chinese, it is a leap into the unknown. They are making small

adjustments to that. They are holding press conferences for

foreign journalists this week, something they have never done

before. And now, Nadine Dorries. There is a picture in the Mail on

Sunday of her having fallen out of the boat. For me, this is so

pathetic. It is pathetic that a politician says that she's going to

do "I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here!" when she has constituents.

It does not help the world of politics. Let's take a look at the

Good morning. I have got the full spectrum for you in the next few

days, cold and Chris today, wet and windy tomorrow. Today it is

Remembrance Sunday. We should see some beautiful sunshine after what

has been a rather chilly start as we move through the remembrance

events today. Lots of fine weather across the UK, early showers fading

away across the West of Scotland. The there will be lots of sunshine

to come. Sunshine for Northern Ireland as well, and also for

northern England. Patches of mist will take until around midday to

lift over Wales. In England, we're looking at almost wall-to-wall

sunshine. Top temperatures of about 8 degrees. After dark, temperatures

fall away quickly. In the West, cloud and rain will pile in and

lift temperatures by the end of the night. The rain will set the tone

for Monday. Heavy rain, possibly, to the north-west. Temperatures

just about hitting double figures. just about hitting double figures.

What the rest of the week has in store is on our website. Theresa

May enthused the Tory conference with her tough words about

immigration. She was widely applauded for her refusing an

American demand that a British Internet hacker should be

extradited. She has been toying with the idea of a single big

inquiry into the child abuse stories, real and imaginary, which

have caused mayhem. Home Secretary, welcomed. What is your reaction to

last night's news about the BBC and how serious do you think the crisis

is? I think it was the right decision that George Entwistle took

last night. I think it is a serious issue, there is a question of trust

and credibility. It is a renowned national institution but it has a

worldwide brand as well. The core of the question about the Newsnight

piece on the north of Wales is about the quality of journalism.

the general child abuse issue there are so many inquiries going on

inside and outside the BBC, all over the place, there has been an

argument made that there should be a single national inquiry. Yes,

that argument has been made and raised in the House of Commons and

outside Parliament. I think the important thing is that we get to

the facts. I think that the police investigation and the investigation

into North Wales is particularly important. We need to ask if

everything was done properly. In relation to North Wales, the

director general of the National Crime Agency has been asked by the

chief constable to come in with his assets. They will look at whether

everything was followed that should have been. There have been

allegations that the inquiry did not go as far as it should have

done. You do not sound like year persuaded that there is the need

for another large inquiry? Not at the moment. The important thing now

is let's let the police and others get on with the job of establishing

the facts. In the police investigations, based -- they will

see if there are criminal charges that need to be followed. Everyone

is waiting for the Leveson enquiry. You are quoted in the Mail on

Sunday as being one of the ministers who does not want to see

statutory regulation of the British press. Is that right? I think it is

right that we retain a free press. I am one of the recipients of the

Leveson report. Together with Maria Miller, we are the recipients. I do

not think it is right to speak about it. The Prime Minister has

said he would accept the proposals made by Lord Leveson unless they

were bonkers. Does that remain the case? We will get a full report and

we will look at it carefully. But it is not for me to prejudge that.

The police commissioner elections, this has been touted as a way of

getting direct democracy across the country into the running of the

police, and yet, if it turns out that perhaps only 20 % of people

bothered to vote, what kind of mandate will these commissioners

have? They will have more of a democratic mandate and the police

to authorities they are replacing. As I go around the country, I have

been looking at campaigns and seen what happens on the streets, when

you speak to people about police commissioners, they are interested

and they think it is a good idea. Only 7% of people know that the

police authorities are there that they can go to if they have an

issue with the police. People are aware of the elections. People will

know and they will have had an opportunity to vote. If that

individual does not do their job, they can be arrested at the next

election. Turnout matters, because these brand new commissioners will

no doubt have tough conversations with the top local copper. If it

turns out that relatively few people have voted for them they

will have left this authority to make big changes. -- are they will

have less authority. What I am seen from candidates is that they will

genuinely be a voice for local people. They will get out and about

and be able to speak to the Chief Constable about what really matters

to people on the ground. What we saw under the last government was

too much control from Whitehall, too much target-setting. Government

You must be slightly disappointed. There was a great deal of optimism

that people would come from more round to stand for the election.

What you have got is an awful lot of political retreads. These are

new elections, obviously, and it sometimes takes time for people to

feel that they can stand in these elections. Out of 192 candidates,

54 of them are independents. The Labour Party has a larger number of

ex MPs standing. We must be very careful about that, but there will

be conflict presumably with chief constables, that is part of the

point? There does not have to be. The Chief Constable's retain their

operational independence. They decide who they will investigate. I

don't think there will be a conflict. Just look at the example

we have got, because we have got a police and crime Commission are

already in London. Effectively the mayor of London and his deputy have

been in that position for some time. What we have seen from the mare is

he absolutely laid out in strategic terms for certain areas he wanted

tackles like London Transport late night being tackled, and that has

happened so he has been able to do that and take the voice of the

people to the police, but champion them as well. Let's turn to

immigration. David Cameron famously said he wanted it down to 10

thousands. The number of people who have absconded, we don't know where

they were, it was something like the population of Iceland. There is

a real problem of grip, isn't there? A to still our aim to get

the number down to the tens of thousands. Last December we saw the

first significant fall for many years, and if we look at the visas

situation to June of this year, we see a significant cut in the number

of visas, particularly in students, 90,000 down just by getting abuse

out of the system. There is a huge amount to be done and more to be

done on enforcement but we are stepping up our enforcement

activity. We still have that intention. Immigration has been

good but it is to be controlled. The archive is getting bigger of

the cases that haven't been resolved however. The are some

issues to do with the UK Border Agency, but we are stepping up

activity and removing more people, getting more people on aeroplanes

to countries where they should be rather than here, but this does

take time. You can't wave a magic wand. Do you think there is a

realistic practical chance of delaying the arrival of Romanian

and Bulgarian free migration to this country? Yvette Cooper said

Labour would support you on that, but the legal position with the EU

is difficult to turn around. Oh a mocking of free movement generally

across the EU. It has been extended gradually over the years and I am

looking at this in three areas. Firstly there is a growing group of

countries in the European Union concerned about the abuse of free

movement, that looking at issues like sham marriage, and we are

working together to reduce abuse of that. We will be looking at the

transitional controls of Bulgaria and I will be looking at the pull

factors, what it is that attracts people to come over here. Looking

at issues like benefits, access to the health service, things like

that. Then we're doing a wider piece of work including free

movement about the balance of powers between us and the EU.

really quite soon that the Bulgarian and Romanian issue will

be tested by people arriving, and the question is will you be able to

stop them coming in? There are no further transitional controls

Wickham put on, but that is where the importance of looking at some

of the issues about what is attracting people to come here is

so important. One of the trivial stories in today's newspaper is

Nadine Dorries on I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here! And people are

suggesting it is setting back politics - do you agree with that?

I think she should be doing her job for her constituents and in the

House of Commons. If she does that, can she come back into the

Conservative Party, do you think? That will be for the whips to

decide at the time but I think she should be here and doing her job.

Let me turn back to the BBC story - there are people who think this is

so serious that the licence fee will come under threat if this is

not well handled. Just analyse the nature or the scale of what is

happening here. Is this one of those embarrassing difficult

awkward things that occupies the papers for a few days and goes away

or is there something fundamental? It is between the two innocence, in

that there is an issue of quality of journalism, which is what the

BBC has been renowned for over the years. What matters now is how the

BBC deals with it and what it puts in place to make sure it can

restore public trust and make the sort of programmes - carry on

making the sort of programmes that people respected for. So you would

expect to see a lot of changes to come? In people and instructors?

The BBC has got a job to do to restore that trust.

A reminder that the police commissioner elections take place

on Thursday. You can find full details of the candidates standing

on the BBC news website. Just type for these elections into the search

box. When George Entwistle announced his resignation last

night outside this very building, he was standing beside the man who

had so recently appointed him. As chairman of the BBC Trust, Lord

Patten is now the last man standing right at the top of the corporation.

As he acknowledged last night, there are plenty of questions for

him as world. Despite his sadness, did he tell George Entwistle to go?

And is the structure of the way the BBC is run not good enough? Lord

Patten, welcome. Did he go or was he pushed? No, he went, extremely

honourably. I didn't try to argue him out of it because he made his

mind up and I think it was the right decision. We had several

conversations yesterday. He is editor in chief of the great news

organisation, and I think he felt he should take responsibility for

the awful journalism which disfigured that Newsnight programme.

One of the ironies is that he was a brilliantly successful editor of

Newsnight himself for some time, which I guess is one of the reasons

Jeremy Paxman said some properly gracious things about him, but now

he had been destroyed by these programmes. And destroy

particularly by his interview with John Humphrys on the Today

programme. Everyone I have spoken to who heard it thought it was a

catastrophic car-crash interview. You don't go for an interview with

John Humphrys and expect it to be easy and that is why he has such a

great journalist. Throughout this, the way the BBC has covered itself

has held on to the way we are, of all four, a news organisation and

our credibility depends on telling the truth about ourselves and

others however horrible it may be. The specific problem for which he

went was lack of curiosity, that he didn't know about this terrible

mistake come to that was too late. That was part of it. One of the

tragedies is that he wanted to do all the right things in terms of

the management of the BBC, perhaps we can come to that in a moment.

What undermined him were exactly those failings which he wanted to

address. From the beginning, unfortunately, in dealing with the

crisis, he was at least implicated in the first crisis because he had

been director of vision when that original Newsnight programme had

gone out so it made it very difficult for him to tackle the

whole thing. He is a very good man. Cerebral, decent, honourable, brave,

and I'm afraid this would have overwhelmed a lot of people with

those sort of skills. I can remember vividly the Hutton Inquiry

crisis, which is the only thing that has been remotely comparable,

and at that point we lost the director general and the chairman.

Do you feel your position is under question? It is bound to beyond

question from Rupert Murdoch's newspapers. What happened with the

Hutton Inquiry, which took out the chairman and a director general, is

that the government reorganised the management, the governance of the

BBC to use that awful word, so as to separate the BBC Trust from the

executive so that there would no longer be a position in which the

chairman had some executive responsibility for the editorial

content of the BBC and that is the position I have been in. I don't

want to hide behind what my job is supposed to be in saying that I

think I now have to make sure that in the interests of the licence fee

payer and the audience that the BBC has a grip, but we get ourselves

back onto the road. We have these two big inquiries, Nick Pollard's

inquiry, and we have a report about the last Newsnight programme and my

job is to learn from those inquiries, and to restore trust in

the BBC. So you will stay on. You accept that George Entwistle was

perhaps too silent for too long but you don't feel you are in that

position? No, but I do feel that, because of what has happened, I

will probably have to be a bit more vociferous. I don't feel this is a

job in which I should grandstand, nor do I believe I should try to

take editorial decisions. That would get us into all sorts of

difficulties of political interference. There is a general

perception, in the words of one of Newsnight's presenters, that the

programme is toast. I think that is a rather quick judgment to come to.

Let me make this point obviously - at the heart of our journalism in

the BBC is good investigative uncompromising investigative

journalism, and Newsnight has been part of that tradition with

Panorama and others. We want to hold on to that but we want to make

sure it doesn't make the sort of mistakes which have been made by

Newsnight, particularly the last one. I heard what Jonathan Dimbleby

said earlier on that, which I thought was a pretty fair comment.

What we want to make sure is that Newsnight and other programmes are

properly managed. Clearly not. It is incomprehensible to many people,

the photograph... Totally. Totally. It has obviously been compromised

by the fact that several senior managerial figures were accused

from responsibility because it was thought to torch on the fact that

they were implicated in the Jimmy Savile story. Was anybody really in

charge? That was a question I asked. When I heard the programme was

being made, because the message on Twitter was brought to my attention

on Friday and mentioned Conservative politicians - I

couldn't phone them up and say what is this? That would have been

grotesque interference. I did subsequent they ask whether the

programme was being properly edited, properly managed, and I was assured

it was. We know from what George was saying yesterday that

apparently decisions about the programme went up through every

damn layer of BBC management, bureaucracy, legal checks, and

still emerged. And a lot of people believe that entire management

structure will have to go. What is absolutely true is that when George

said that we had to get away from the silos in the BBC, get away from

the been fighting, the more self- critical, devolving decisions far

more, he was spot on. The tragedy is that after he was set to do

those things, he was affected by a crisis that caused the strings. If

you are asking if it needs an overhaul, absolutely it does.

invited to go to talk to the senior management group. I think there

were more than 100 people there so senior they can spend 100 days

There are more senior leaders in the BBC than the Chinese Communist

Party. We do have to devolve decision-making as much as possible,

but with that comes the way that people are prepared to take

responsibility. Those who have responsible positions in journalism

are very reluctant to accept that they are therefore part of

management, but they are. Unacceptable journalism, shoddy

journalism, was your phrase. Do you think people need to be brought in

from outside the corporation to oversee the journalism? That may be

possible. What we have to do is to get a grip immediately. I will be

speaking to Tim Davie, who is acting director general, about here

as he can best handle things. -- about how EC can best handle things.

We will need to choose a director general of the BBC. We will need to

make sure that whoever is director general of the BBC has the team

around him which can make the Jupp possible. Max Hastings pointed out

earlier that this is a spectacularly large job in terms of

scale and sweet and you do need to have are really good team of people

around you. When it comes to the overall structures, we are looking

at something which will make the BBC look and feel very different in

the future. At different organisation will have to emerge

from this crisis? That is true, but it is not just because of this

crisis, it is also because of what is happening digitally. We

demonstrated during the Olympics that the BBC is a great engineering

organisation as well as a creative organisation, but that has all

sorts of implications for the way that people will be watching

television programmes in the future. We have to adjust to a world in

which fewer people are reading newspapers. You have to find a

brand new director general. At the same time, there seems to be very

little management in the new structure and the organisation is

visibly turning on itself? How quickly can you get a brand new

director general? There needs to be someone in charge quickly and we

will be turning our attention to that today. But we will also be

working with Tim Davie to make sure that he can have the right support

in getting the BBC on track right away. Do you have to go through the

same cumbersome process? No. can do it quickly. When it comes to

the way that news is handled inside the BBC, it has been argued, not

least during the newspaper review, that there needs to be a much

stronger head of news who is not necessarily the director general.

This job is so important, you need someone who's full attention is on

the quality of the journalism? I think there is a case for that. I

do not want to prejudge, but I think there is a strong argument

for that. I do not think that you would ever want a situation where

there was not one person if you was in charge, but I think you need to

look at the relationship between the director general of the

organisation, editorial and creative. Anybody but an Archangel

need strong support in those areas. Absolutely. If this carried on

going wrong from now on, then the very future of the BBC could be in

contention? You have only got to watch television in America or

France to know how good the BBC is and has been. It is massively

respected around the world, and the basis for the licence fee, the

bases for the BBC's position in this country, is the trust that

people have in it. People believe strongly that they are getting it

straight from the BBC, more so than any other news organisation. If the

BBC loses that, it is over? Yes. There are some newspapers who would

love that, Mr Murdoch's newspapers. But I think the great British

public wants us to restore confidence in the BBC's, -- the

BBC's quality. Are there things that when you look back, you think,

I wish I had done that better? may have some views about whether

or not the way the role of the trust has been carved out, maybe

that constrains one too much in relation to programmes, but that is

the situation as it is and I will not try to change that. There are

more important things that matter. Given what I knew then, I would

still have chosen with my colleagues on the trust George

Entwistle, as he was our unanimous choice. We thought he was a

terrific, creative leader for the BBC. I am sorry, it is one of the

tragedies of life, I am sorry that he was overwhelmed by this crisis.

Many people in the House of Commons are looking forward with some glee

to a smaller, diminished BBC at the end of this. Yes, there are some

people in that position. I think they are cagey about the way they

speak about it. If the role of the BBC was to become an issue in a

general election, you would find that most of the people speaking

about it would be in favour of the BBC continuing to play an important

part in our national life. Just put this horrendous crisis on one side

for a moment. The BBC has been one of the most respected national

institutions. It is one of the things that helps to define and

reflect Britishness. We should not lose sight of that. One of the

dangers of this is that having got one thing so appallingly badly

wrong, the entire institution becomes completely risk-averse and

stops trying to do other stories. Everything is referred up the way

and nothing actually happens. months ago, when I became chairman

of the BBC Trust, people were saying that the place was bound by

too many regulations because of Ross brand. Now there will be some

people who say, we should put that Back Again. We must not do that. We

must have the confidence to investigate and explore. But we

have to make sure that what we say is correct. Who is going to rally

the troops? There are a lot of upset people because overwhelmingly

the people who work for the BBC have not been in any way

responsible for this ghastly mess. They now feel slightly tainted by

what has happened. It is important to encourage them to go on making

great radio and television programmes. That is something we

will be speaking to Tim Davie about today. Despite what has happened,

you think that Newsnight can survive? I think it would be very

sad if we were to give up that evening slot which has done a lot

of terrific investigative journalism over the years, not

least when George was the editor. But we have got to consider how it

is managed and whether people have got a grip on the content.

quickly do you think you can put a brand new director general in

place? I think it has got to be a few weeks rather than a lot of mums.

Thank you very much for joining us. He had won pretty decisively anyway

but last night's announcement of victory in Florida after they

finally completed counting the votes would have been pretty sweet

for Barack Obama. It gives him an even clearer mandate. Many liberals

will be hoping that Mr Obama will be pursuing a more distinctive

agenda. Greg Craig worked very closely with the President, backing

his original election bid and working as his chief lawyer in the

White House. I asked him if he thought the President had been

changed by the election. It has to have changed him. It was an

intensely fought out campaign. I think there was a surprising moment

in the first debate when the President realised that he had not

measured up to his own standards, and that he would have to roll up

his sleeves and take a real run at it. I think he showed his stamina,

his competitiveness and his dedication. I think he also showed

his fight. You side in this campaign more than in the last

three years. To any extent we have seen more of the President, we have

seen that aspect of him. I thought the appears with his campaign aides

showed the emotional side of him, and how much she is involved in

this job. Pretty much his first statement after re-election was to

call for tax rises for the rich in America. The Republicans are saying,

no way. There is a serious danger of gridlock in Washington? There is

that. What is so sad about this, Andrew, as you know, is that

everyone knows that his grand bargain it must and can be made,

and ultimately it will be made. The President is in a position that is

a little bit different. It is different from his position before

the election. Not only did he gain seats in the Senate, it was

predicted that he would lose, but he ran the entire campaign on the

question of policy is approaching the deficit. He can say to his

opponents in Congress, it is not just a matter of whether I am right,

whether it is morally right that if we're cutting entitlements we have

got to increase taxes on the most wealthy, I have no choice now, the

American people expect this to happen. My own party expects this

to happen. They will insist on it. This is a classic political issue.

I think it strengthens his position. There are lots of people changes as

well. The biggest surprise for President Obama has been the loss

of the head of the CIA after an extra-marital affair. How serious

is it to lose General Petraeus at this moment? He was part of his

team and whenever President loses a major component of his national

security team, it is a blow. The great thing about General Petraeus

was his record of service in the military. Also, his intelligence

and his analytical capacity. It transferred to the directorship of

the CIA. It was an asset for the President to have him there and he

will be difficult to replace. have been very close to Bill

Clinton and Hillary Clinton. What do you think about Hillary

Clinton's chances of becoming the Democrats'' next presidential

candidate, but also America's first female president? I do, I do. I

expect to see her as a major candidate if not the president-

elect. I think she has done an amazing job of Secretary -- I think

she has done an amazing job as secretary of state. She has

satisfied a everyone that she is qualified to be president of the

United States. I think she's closer to the presidency now than in 2007.

You struggled with the issue of trying to close Guantanamo Bay and

the President disappointed a lot of his liberal supporters. Do you

think we will see a bolder president in his second term?

take issue with one premise of the question. That is that President

Obama was the person who changed his mind about closing Guantanamo

Bay. To this day, I think President Obama wants to close Guantanamo Bay

and would have closed Guantanamo Bay had he had a partner in it from

the republican side of the House of Representatives. One of the things

that we found to our surprise in 2009 was that the Republican Party

in Congress was opposing everything that President Obama wanted to

accomplish. For that reason it became very difficult without that

bipartisan support, to close Guantanamo Bay. I do not blame

President Obama as someone who cared a lot about closing

Some people said 2008 was the election Toulouse, but possibly the

next four years, it you avoid the fiscal crisis and if you avoid

gridlock, this could be a very good period for America, economically

speaking. I agree with that assessment. To paraphrase, the

greatest threat to our national security right now is not the

international threat from Iran or terrorism, it is the ability of

Congress to function which prevents things from getting dumb. That

means we are one agreement away from economic growth and prosperity

that has been unequalled for many years. If we can achieve that

agreement, and both sides have got a compromise and come together, I

think the prospects for this being one of the best decades America has

ever had are very high. There is confidence about where the economy

is going, There is a sense that we are on the right track, and if we

can just get beyond the disputes having to do with our deficit

reduction package, I think we are in great shape. Nice to hear

someone sounding optimistic. We have got a lot more to come on this

extended programme, but first over to the news headlines. The chairman

of the BBC Trust has paid tribute to George Entwistle, who resigned

last night as director general. He said he was a good man, cerebral,

decent, honest and brave, who had been trying to do the right things.

The tragedy is that two weeks after he set himself to start doing those

things, he was overwhelmed by a crisis which was partly caused by

some of those things. It you are saying, does the BBC needed Thora

structural radical overhaul? Then absolutely. The Home Secretary said

the crisis strikes at the heart of the BBC because it concerned the

credibility of its journalism, which was at the core of the

organisation's purpose. Theresa May said the BBC had a job

to do to restore public trust. That cheat of the Defence Staff has

revealed there are contingency plans for possible military

intervention in Syria. In an interview, General Sir David

Richards said all options are being examined and it would not be

impossible to mount a limited organisation, saying nothing is off

the table in dealing with Iran. That is everything from me. The

next news on BBC One is at 1:15pm. A among those remembered today will

be the 437 servicemen and women who have lost their lives in

Afghanistan, and the many others who have suffered injuries. For

some, the sporting opportunities have been central to their recovery.

It begins here at the Defence Medical rehabilitation centre at

Headley caught before a move to a specialist training centre. One of

the athletes was Derek Derenalagi, who was blown up by a roadside bomb.

Here he is telling his story. almost dead in Afghanistan and

every Remembrance Sunday after my injury is always a special day for

When they were operating on me in the theatre in camp bastion, one of

the medical staff back then in 2007 saw a slight pulse on May and

changed their plans from put in me in the body back. How can go back

to the first day when I threw the discus. I think it was in Stoke

Mandeville in 2010 and I said to myself I will be doing this in

London, 2012. So many people said no, you can't make it Derek because

it will take a while to train. It takes a few years. I did respect

the opinions, but I trained hard to try and make it, and I did it....

That's because you are a superstar, Derek. What really affects us

marked a lot is the mental side of life and we struggled in that area,

most of my colleagues, we struggle. Like I have said, it is not just

training. It is not just coming and doing sport all the time, it is

everything, especially your own mind set. You have to be ready

every time you go training because if you don't have the right

attitude you won't achieve what you are looking to achieve in life. For

me, everything - family, colleagues, especially because I'm still in the

military, and the support I get from my colleagues sending me text

messages and messages on Facebook - it really encouraged me and to see

my mates in the regiment, friends and colleagues all over the country

and abroad as well, especially my family, my wife really helps me a

lot, because if I don't have the support from my wife and immediate

family, I wouldn't have achieved what I have done, to represent

Great Britain in the Paralympic Games. So it is not just about

sports. The way I look at it is to put a smile on someone's face, if

someone has been struck by whatever things that he or she has gone

through in life, to put a smile back on her face, that is a big

deal to me. I always feel emotional when it comes to Remembrance

weekend, especially on Sunday. It means a lot because looking back,

seeing some of my very close friends who have been killed in the

battlefield in Afghanistan and most of my colleagues have been injured

as well like me, but Remembrance Sunday is so special to me

personally and to my family. To look back at the sacrifice that the

four fathers of our country have done so that we can live in freedom.

I am a born again Christian, and my faith really comes into it as well,

and just to remind me there if you keep everything that has happened

to your friends and families, and those who have sacrificed their

lives, the way I look at it, is be Viki those things and what has

happened to them, it will not help. The strap helps to keep me up right

so if I fell forward I would be disqualified. That is the reason I

am clipping the strapped together. It is just trying to get the

separation between your arm and you're -- your hip. I am so

thankful I am alive today. Losing to lens does not matter. What

matters is still enjoying life today. The Paralympic athlete and

soldier, Derek Derenalagi, and his story is a powerful reminder of the

toll Afghanistan has taken on the armed forces. Hundreds of British

troops have died there, and they will be remembered today. Earlier I

spoke to the chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir David Richards,

about the challenges ahead and notably what might happen in Syria.

First, he told me what Remembrance Day means to him. I would like to

emphasise that while we remember those people and we are morning

them, it is time also to remember what they have achieved and

celebrate the freedoms they allowed other people. You think of the

Second World War, places like Sierra Leona, Afghanistan even, I

know what is controversial. A lot of people are living better lives

because of the efforts of these people so I tend to balance my

sense of grief with a sense of celebration of what they have

achieved. He mentioned the Second World War, and for most people that

was the Good War, an existential battle against evil, and people are

less sure about something like Afghanistan, when we are going to

be pulling out in 2014, and the question is what do we leave behind

there? Do you think the government will be able to say this was a

Walworth fighting? Firstly, if you look at why we went in it was

because of the threat emanating from there. In that narrow sense

there is no doubt there has been no attacks launched on this country or

other Western nations from Afghanistan since 2001. That is

worth hanging on to when there are a lot of people around the world

who would still seek to do that. We have squeezed out that opportunity

and saved a lot of British and other lives. More widely I think

the armed forces are committed to this operation and I think we can

pull it off. We have lost about a quarter of the soldiers killed from

so-called green on blue, from Afghans who we are supposed to be

training to defend their own country, turning around and killing

our people. Soldiers expect to die, but losing a quarter this year like

that must cause problems for morale, surely? It is only a quarter this

year and to import and to hang on to that. Because our overall

casualty levels are down, which is a good thing, it looks a bigger

threat than it probably is. There was some misunderstanding about it.

Most of those who are doing this to us actually members of the Taliban

or have been got at by the Taliban. When people say this is the Afghan

army and police doing it, it is the Taliban using a tactic that is very

effective, playing on our minds, because of the impact it has on

people like you and people who are influenced including the

politicians, but actually it is a - - about 0.02 %. Only about 4% of

our casualties have been caused through that way. When I had Philip

Hammond in the seat, he was suggesting perhaps 4000-5000 troops

may come home next year. Is that do wobble? I watched that interview

very carefully. He slipped in the term 4000 and he didn't correct it.

He didn't dissent. The he was already answering your next point,

and he said he expects us to draw down by many thousands, but not as

many as you took away from that. not 4000? No, that is not the

intention. We still await the plan and we have to see what NATO and

the US decide to do, and we will make sure we conform with that plan

as we always have because we can't go wrong if we do that. But you can

get several thousand out? The will be a substantial reduction by the

end of next year and the plans are already laid to achieve that. It

will be in the thousands and we will be out of the combat role by

the end of 2014. The key is to make sure Afghan confidence levels are

maintained because we need them to look after us as we draw down so it

is important to get this right. There seems to be a mood in

Washington that things have to be speeded up, and Obama wants to get

his people back as soon as possible. I sense that but I believe we have

a plant that will deliver what we need, witches and Afghan police

force and army which are able to take on a reduced insurgency, but

the important part of this is the political process. We have spoken

about the need to bring the Taliban into the solution. President Karzai

it is determined to do it, the Pakistanis want to do it, and a lot

of Taliban it would appear also want to. Are you comfortable with

losing 20,000 soldiers from the regular army and replacing that

In theory, we end up with a larger army. Those 30,000... In the

reserves? They are all reserves, but as part of the brand new

contract which we are devising, we have until 2015 to get this right,

they will have an obligation to serve when required, about every

one year in five. The Territorial Army has done brilliantly and will

continue to do brilliantly, but we have got to integrate them fully. I

am comfortable with it, and we had to create headroom for many more

brand new technologies. UN Man de air vehicles, space, in the future.

If we stuck rigorously, we would still be going to battle on horses.

Syria's President Assad has said in effect that the West cannot

intervene militarily in his country because it would create a dominant

-- because it would create a domino effect? Is he correct? It would be

a massive effort. I do not think there is any intention to do at the

moment. These humanitarian situation this winter will, I think,

deteriorate. It may provoke intervention in a limited way, but

there is no ultimate military reason why one should not. I know

that these options are being examined. If we had a horrendous

humanitarian situation this winter, it is not inconceivable or

impossible to intervene, at least in some part of Syria to try and

protect people? I think that is true. Obviously we developed

contingency plans to look at these things. So there is a way that it

could be done if that is what the political masters said? Or of

course. It is my job to make sure that these options are continually

brushed over to make sure that we can deliver them and they are

credible, but I think we are focusing on containing the crisis

so it does not spill into Lebanon, Jordan, and Turkey. That is our

primary focus but they could also accommodate a humanitarian crisis.

Do you think we will be seeing British military involvement around

the borders of Syria, both in that containment and on these

humanitarian side? It is certainly something that we have got to look

at and we have limited assistance, because they are allies of flowers,

we have small numbers of people deployed there. We are keeping our

awareness high. I think the main thing right now is the

international community and the political leaders, they need to

decide what they want to do and then people like me can develop

plans to knead those requirements. At the same time, the people inside

Syria must agree. It has been said it would be inconceivable to engage

in military operations against Iran. Would that be your view? The Prime

Minister and President Obama have said that nothing is off the table.

It would be fraught the writ -- it would be fraught with risk, but I

have to continue to keep that one alive. Thank you for speaking to us.

General Sir David Richards. Folk music does not really do

superstars, but if it did, there is no doubt Kate Rusby would have her

name up in lights. Winner of numerous awards, for albums like

Underneath The Stars, she is now marking two decades as a singer

songwriter. Kate Rusby's latest album, Twenty, revisits some of the

songs that have defined her career, with iconic names like Dick Gaughan,

Richard Thompson and Paul Weller, and which inspired a new generation

of folk artists like Mumford & Sons and Laura Marling.

Good morning. Lovely to have you here. Thank you for having us.

us about the state of folk music because you emerged in the 1990s,

head of the rest of them. We are seeing more going on, but is not

really backed up by the big money at like rock-and-roll. I think that

might ruin it a bit. Part of the appeal of folk music is that

everybody just ploughs on with it themselves. It is stronger for it.

You're a very successful recording artist, but as most of the fan come

from live performances. I know you were up late last night? Yes, we

drove down from Derby. We had a great time. A lot of the folk

artists like myself, we have our own record labels. Even though you

Sales, you can still make a living from it. My whole family and

implied in our record company. your parents are musicians? Yes,

mac paints both sing and play bass instruments. That is why me and my

siblings started playing. I have been in it since I was born.

their brand-new people coming in all the time, it is alive? Aid used

to be an old fashioned thing. only need to go to festivals like

Cambridge Folk Festival and you will see the array of music on

offer. We say folk music, but anything goes these days. The sums

you're going to sing for us now. This is called Underneath The Stars.

When did you write it? About six years ago, something like that.

is one of your favourites. We will enjoy that in just a moment.

We're just about at the end of this extended programme. Coverage of

events to mark Remembrance Sunday follows this programme. We are back

next week with a selection of politicians and more music. But for

now, I will leave you with the voice of Kate Rusby and Underneath

# Underneath the stars I'll meet # Underneath the stars I'll greet

# There beneath the stars I'll leave you

# Before you go of your own free will

# Here beneath the stars I'm landing

# And here beneath the stars not ending

# Why on earth am I pretending? # I'm here again, the stars

befriending # They come and go of their own

free will # Underneath the stars you met me