13/01/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Hello and good morning. It would, of course, be a much better morning

if Andrew were here and not me, but I'm keeping the chair warm while he

is away getting better. We all look forward to his speedy recovery and

wish him well and all the best in the meantime. Now, to business.

Joining me here today for our review of the Sunday newspapers are

the campaigner and broadcaster, Esther Rantzen, and Gillian Tett of

the Financial Times. They'll be taking us through the headlines

shortly. MPs returned to Westminster this

week after the Christmas break and the usual hostilities were resumed

with robust exchanges at the first Prime Minister's Questions of the

new year. Ed Miliband may be ahead in the opinion polls, but is that a

reflection of the coalition's unpopularity rather than confidence

in Labour as an alternative government? I will be talking to

the Labour leader in the hope that we can put some flesh on his policy

bones. In Belfast, the violence on the streets continues as loyalists

and republicans clash over the decision by Belfast City Council to

stop flying the union flag every day. In the last 24 hours alone, 29

police officers have been injured by fireworks, bricks and other

missiles. So what does all this sectarian violence tell us about

the political settlement in Northern Ireland and what, if

anything, is the way forward? The First Minister, Peter Robinson,

will be joining us live from Stormont Castle. Now, this actor

has been much on our screens of late, playing a traitorous spy over

Christmas, and a few months ago receiving rave reviews for his role

in Parade's End as a sex mad vicar! After years of high profile film

and TV roles, Rufus Sewell is returning to the stage. I'll be

talking to him about the Pinter play Old Times which has just

opened in London's West End. But first this morning, the news

Good morning. The health watchdog, the Care Quality Commission, is

warning that 17 NHS hospitals in England are failing to provide safe

levels of staffing. Labour claims the failings reflect what it calls

a toxic combination of spending cuts and health service re-

organisation. But the Government insists it has increased the number

of clinical staff working in the NHS. Late last year the Care

Quality Commission highlighted staffing problems in NHS problems

in its review of services. Labour has obtained further information,

produced a list published in the Sunday Telegraph of those which had

unsafe staffing levels are the most recent inspection. It includes 17

hospitals, eight Mental Health Unit, and the London Ambulance Service.

This comes in advance of the public inquiry report into the scandal at

Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust. Its findings will address the failure

of regulators to tackle a range of problems including staff shortages.

A spokesman said it had told the hospital's they must comply with

standards and show how they were going to achieve this. Labour

points out that nursing numbers in England are down since the

coalition came to power and says they can't provide the standard of

care everyone wants to see if they are overstretched. The government

says there are more clinical staff, including 5000 extra doctors, and

says there can be no excuse for failing to provide appropriate

staffing levels. An eight-year-old British girl has

been shot dead while on holiday in a small town on the north coast of

Jamaica. Imani Green, from Balham in south London, had been in a shop

owned by her cousin, when a man walked in and opened fire. She died

in hospital. Three other people, who were wounded in the attack in

the town of Duncans, are in a stable condition. Police say the

shooting may have been in reprisal, for an earlier gun attack. A

relative of Imani's, Janelle Parmer, who was at the scene of the attack,

told her local radio station what happened. We heard the gunshots and

we ran outside and started to call her. I picked her up off the ground,

and I realised she was still breathing so they drove us to the

hospital, and the rest is history. The chief constable of Northern

Ireland, Matt Baggott, has praised the "exceptional courage" of police

officers dealing with the violent protests linked to the flying of

the union flag in Belfast. Yesterday, 29 officers were injured

- the biggest casualty figure for a single day since the violence began

more than five weeks ago. Fireworks, bricks and other missiles were

thrown as the police tried to break up clashes between loyalist and

republican demonstrators in east Belfast. Senior politicians from

Belfast, Dublin and Westminster will meet in London this week to

discuss the protests. British military planes are to be

used to transport French troops and equipment to the West African

country of Mali, where the government is struggling to contain

an uprising by Islamist rebels. David Cameron's spokesman said the

situation in Mali posed a threat to international security. No British

forces will be involved in combat operations.

France's intervention in Marley seems to have galvanised the army.

The militants were making more gains and a state of emergency had

been announced. Since France sent in troops, some of those had been

reversed. Islamists had been driven out out of the strategic central

town that they had ceased earlier in the week, and now another boost

for the forces - the UK will be providing logistical support.

Downing Street says that no British troops will be deployed in combat.

The British government fears the consequences of the ongoing war in

Mali and where it could affect the UK, the crisis will be discussed by

the National Security Council on Tuesday.

That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just

before ten o'clock. Back to you, James.

Let's have a look at the front pages as usual. In the Observer,

Ken Clarke and Peter Mandelson and getting back together to fight in

this story. The Sunday Telegraph has a story about the latest

attempt to try and defend the Falklands and the manoeuvring going

on in Argentina. A picture of the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh.

Scotland on Sunday, the latest manoeuvring ahead of the

independence campaign. And the Sun, somebody called Katie is getting

married to a builder. These are the headlines. I'm very glad to have

with us Esther Rantzen and Gillian Tett. You will be kicking off with

the story about Jimmy Savile and the backwash from that.

offended very depressing, not just because it is a depressing story,

but now because people are beginning to search form more and

more dramatic headlines. This one says that police will arrest seven

more stars, which is depressing because if it is true it means

there is a police leak, and if it is not true it's ridiculous, and

the whole operation, I think, should be very focused on child

abuse. That is what it is for and what it is about, and yet some of

the recent allegations involving Jim Davidson - his agent has had to

come forward and say it is about allegations concerning two women in

their 20s at the time - it muddies the waters. Do you think there is a

concern that these are separate issues about behaviour with young

women, behaviour with children, that is getting lumped together?

Absolutely. The reality is that Jimmy Savile was active for so many

years that invariably what has been uncovered tortures on many aspects

of British life. I agree that we should be focusing on the terrible

abuse, and it went on covered for such a long time. And the lessons

we can learn from it. Could it happen today? Yes, because the

British justice system is letting children down. Jimmy Savile should

have faced just as when he was alive. He didn't because the

adversarial system is so prejudiced against child witnesses that the

police and the CPS thought they could never stand up in court.

of the pieces I have chosen explains why this has happened and

this is a stunning piece, about a journalist who 25 years ago went to

interview him. She considers herself a feminist, she's a great

journalist, and she says that while she was interviewing him he licked

her hand and said some disgusting words to her, and yet in hairpiece

she never wrote about it. She said the comment he made was to rude,

too personal, and I just excised it in classic female fashion by

blaming myself. Do you think that would happen these days? All credit

to her from writing this in such searing honesty because the ability

of us to be conned and swept along and practise self-censorship is

very powerful. Remember paedophiles have to be callous, manipulative,

ruthless. They have to groom adults and he was grooming her. His jokey

aspects will have allowed her to think that was just Jimmy Savile

being Jimmy Savile, and not asking the question who he was doing this

to, and how often, because he was grooming everyone. The question to

ask after reading this piece is what are we turning a blind eye to

today? Let's talk about Europe, a lot of Europe in the papers this

morning. There is a lot about that but I will be starting with a

stunning piece from the Sun, not known for its cutting-edge foreign

policy coverage, which talks about what is happening in Greece right

now and the fact that the far right are rising in power with a party

called Golden Dawn. You might say why should anyone care? It is very

important because, as the economic pressures rise in Europe, and they

have not been fixed, we are seeing strains on the political system.

The far right have been contained so far, but this piece which

describes what the far right is doing is very chilling. Isn't it

almost surprising this has not happened earlier? There have been a

lot of protests, but no growth for these far right parties until now.

Thank heavens, but the project was supposed to act to heal the wounds

of World War Two and bring countries together, and it is

starting to make increasing tension between the countries. Golden dawn

is saying we don't like foreigners, and it is very chilling. Talking of

destruction, Northern Ireland. heavens. Northern Ireland, which

was such a beacon of hope because the two sides split class Wise,

religion Wise, coming together for the greater good of the community,

and now we have this. I would like to make a plea to the women of

Northern Ireland because when you look at these thuggish crowds, they

are all male, some of them very young. Is that true? Yes, not the

protest, they include women, but a lot of this is about testosterone

and they need to go home to their wives and mothers and they should

say stop now. They are bringing a whole country into disrepute. This

was a compromise, this Flagstaff, which is incomprehensible if you

don't live in Northern Ireland. It seems a peculiar thing to go into

the streets about, but let's talk about it rationally. Ask Peter

Robinson, where are the women? shall indeed. This next story is

about the economy, and wide political tensions are building

across the eurozone, and in places like Northern Ireland, where the

economy is still very much in the doldrums. This is a nice, on

looking at the issue that although we have had a dramatic stock market

rally in recent days, people think things are getting better and we

are seeing some signs of optimism in some corners of the economy,

particularly America, but there are some big road bumps in the days

ahead. Places like Spain are very worrying, and in America, although

they managed to squeak back off the edge of the fiscal cliff with some

bungee-jumping, a last-minute deal, there is another crunch coming in

two months because there could be an argument about the Budget.

in the papers today quite a few businessmen are taking both sides

on the European issue, which has suddenly caught their attention,

but there are voices on both sides. Absolutely, and we are seeing are

the issue of Europe coming to the fore and people saying what the

question of the UK is going to do about Europe is very important. The

Americans said last week we really don't want the UK to leave the EU.

One of the other pieces I chose was an excellent column about what

David Cameron is doing in Europe and suggesting that if he wants to

find a good strategy to follow, he should be copying John Major. Look

back to the supposedly boring man of British politics, who, in his

own quiet way, acting like a gentleman, managed to extract some

big concessions from Europe. He didn't do it by shouting and

screaming, he tiptoed around. This is suggesting that is what David

Cameron should be doing. He also says that if you re read Margaret

Thatcher's Bruges speech, there are some sections were David Cameron

thought they could not read it out Somebody has had a go at a national

icon, it cannot be true! absolutely, Clare Balding! She

always says the right thing, in the right way. And out comes this

journalist, alas, in the Mail on Sunday, being extremely hostile to

her, on the grounds that Clare Balding said, nobody Highers me for

my dress sense, for my looks, it is only because of the work that I do.

Now, back at the dawn of time, I was on television in 1968, and I

had no dress sense, and I was not gorgeous and good-looking, like all

of the children on television today. Surely not. No, I wasn't. And

funnily enough, when people asked me to do fashion things, I said, no,

I have got to be judged by my work. I think that Clare Balding has a

point. I say, forget horses for a moment, I particularly look like a

horse, I have appeared surrounded by horses, and the teeth were very

difficult to tell apart, but I am in favour of women doing what Clare

Balding does, and I think this journalist has once again put her

foot in it. There is an interesting aspect on this in the United States,

talking about this, people in the media getting presented in a very

sexualised fashion, which is very disappointing and very dangerous.

Speaking about female icons, someone has written a piece about

Marks & Spencer's. Yes, I must talk about this wonderful piece, written

by Esther Rantzen. She talks about the fact that she was part of the

generation that grew up loving Marks & Spencer's, and has been

disappointed recently by the fact that the clothes are caught in a

limbo land, neither fashionable, nor cheap and cheerful. It very

much reflects a bigger business problem faced by M&S, which is that

unfortunately, it has just unveiled some very disappointing Christmas

sales figures, it had a tremendous mess up with the announcement of

its results, many people looking at the CEO, saying, what are you

doing? It is going to be a big challenge. Just time for a couple

more, Esther, duckhouses? Yes, one voice was completely unheard in all

of the stuff about the MP's expenses, and that was the quack of

the duck. Alan Titchmarsh has bravely come out and said, my ducks

love their duckhouse, it is for the Conservation of ducks.

duckhouses are good, but we should not pay for them. Very quickly,

this is my favourite story, because it says that Adele is terrified of

the Oscars next week. It shows that even if people seem confident in

public, they are off and faking it. Too many girls these days think, I

have to be really confident to succeed, and because I am not

confident, I am going to take myself out of the game. This shows

that everybody suffers from confidence problems at the start.

Somebody like Esther Rantzen is a great example of an icon of

somebody who is on TV. We might even have her on the show if we are

lucky. Both of you, thank you very much indeed. It is very cold, and

maybe it is going to get a bit colder. With a while the more

specific forecast, here's Matt Taylor. Good morning. You summed it

up quite nicely. There will be some up quite nicely. There will be some

children in southern and Western areas over the next few days

disappointed by the lack of snow. Rain in Northern Ireland mainly,

with icy conditions and snow over the hills. In Scotland, around the

coast and over some low-level sites, it is mainly rain and sleet. We

will eventually see some snow away from the coast in the north-west of

England and in the far north of Wales. But many southern areas stay

dry and bright during the day. Tonight, across northern, central

and eastern parts of England, some more significant snow will start to

fall, giving a covering for the Monday morning rush-hour. There

could be some ice around as well. It could be quite a difficult start

to Monday. Keep in touch with your latest travel news before you set

out. Another band then pushes through Scotland. Significant snow,

down the eastern side of the country. But southern most counties

of England, it will be pushing back to sunshine later on Monday.

Feeling cold, and as the week goes on, it will feel even colder,

Petrol bombs and rubber bullets, death threats and injured policemen

- in recent years, we might have thought that was the language of

Northern Ireland's past, but we were wrong. The decision in

December by Belfast City council to stop flying the Union flag every

day has sparked violent riots, which are now spreading, with

loyalists and police clashing across the city, and beyond.

Children as young as 11 have been arrested for violence. Local

politicians have been attacked. The dispute shows no sign of going away.

I am joined now kicking from Belfast by the First Minister of

northern island, and the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party,

Peter Robinson. You are meeting Martin McGuinness later in the week

- what do you hope to get out of those talks? Are you hopeful of

some kind of resolution? First of all, it is important to be saying

that we have come through decades, some would say centuries of

conflict and division. The politicians of this generation

determined that they were not going to put down the line of trying to

get a resolution to those difficulties. We took some historic

decisions, and we agreed to move forward to build a shared society

in Northern Ireland. It is important to tell the wider

community in Northern Ireland, and indeed our friends in the rest of

the United Kingdom, that we are not giving up on that. We are of the

view that we are determined to build the kind of society where

everybody can have a peaceful and stable existence. Of course there

are people who are against what we are doing. There are people on the

Republican side, dissidents, who are attempting to undermine the

process here in Northern Ireland. And there are those who are using

the present flags protests in order to try to undermine the stability

of this strong system. They will not succeed, because we are

absolutely determined that we are going ahead. We are absolutely

determined, because the people have supported what we are doing at

Stormont. We had Brit the election, and that is the only way you can

determine the future direction of Northern Ireland. More than 99% of

the elected representatives who were returned are in support of the

system. To get back to the question, what do you expect to achieve at

the meetings this week? Well, in the meetings this week, we have

regular meetings with the United Kingdom government and with the

Irish government, and we will deal with all of the outstanding issues.

We will discover all of the issues, not just the violence on the

streets. -- we will discuss. That's because we are not going to lose

our focus on moving forward. But we will deal with those issues, and we

will make it clear that condemnation exists in the wider

community who believes that the way forward is to throw petrol bombs or

stones at the Police. You do not sound like a man with a plan on

this issue? We have already set up a unionist forum, and the purpose

of that is to draw away from the protest those who want to deal with

the actual issue - and the only way you can deal with that issue is

through the political process. The flag on Belfast City council is not

going to go up because somebody throws a petrol bomb at a policeman.

The only way forward is through the political process, and we are

trying to encourage people to engage in that, and we're trying to

bring forward channels so that people can talk, so that the sense

of that way forward is heard by everyone. Do you take any

responsibility for what has taken place? Some of your supporters have

been on the streets. Your party has very vocally opposed the decision

over the flag - do you take responsibility yourself? I think it

was a big mistake on the part of Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the

Alliance Party to change the status quo at Belfast. It was a bad

decision. But bad decision or not, the only way of addressing bad

decisions which are taken within the democratic process is through

the democratic process. Of course we have no responsibility, because

the people who are out throwing stones and petrol bombs at the

police are not supporters of mind, or my party. These are people who

are against the political process, in which we are engaged. What does

this 40 days of violence tell you about the political settlement in

Northern Ireland? Some say it shows that there are still substantial

minorities within Northern Ireland who feel excluded from the

political process, excluded from the economic process, and that this

has been late and for some time, and we are now seeing it on the

streets? Well, I think there are political issues, and there are

people who feel disengaged, and people who feel that if we are

trying to build a shared society, they are not getting their share.

This was one of the arguments which were brought forward to the

coalition government, when they attempted, and succeeded, to reduce

substantially the funds which were available to us in Northern Ireland.

That while we have been able to tick the box of getting political

structures up, we needed to win the support of the overwhelming

majority of people in Northern Ireland, we had to show them that

devolution work. I think we all recognise that it is no accident

that the violence is occurring but a month and he -- is occurring

predominantly in areas which have been associated with deprivation.

Finally, for those who might be thinking about taking part in more

violence tonight, what would you say to them? The only way forward

in Northern Ireland is true the political and -- is true the

political process. That has been endorsed overwhelmingly by the

people of Northern Ireland. Any grievances have to be addressed

through the democratic process. It will not change anything to be

involved in violence on the streets. Thank you very much. For many of us,

he first came to our attention in Middlemarch, as Will Ladislaw.

Since then, Rufus Sewell has been a brooding presence in a variety of

roles on our screens. It has been five years since he last appeared

on the London stage, but he is now returning to the West End in Harold

Pinter's most mysterious play. Here he is as a British intelligence

officer, trying to recruit new agents, in Restless. How can I

believe you? Why would I lie to you? My brother is dead, that is

all I care about. What is this, some kind of joke? You are a

British citizen, you will earn �500 a year. We will get your father

into hospital, the best treatment. You can do something to avenge that

death. Welcome to the show. Tell us first something about this Harold

the Prime Minister play. It is described as his most mysterious,

and perhaps most challenging. That's saying something for Harold

the Prime Minister. It is the only Harold the Prime Minister play I

have ever done, so I cannot really compare it, other than a short one

I did, called Victoria Station, a few years ago. But yes, it is about

three people in a farmhouse, a husband and wife, and they are

about to be visited by the wife's best friend from 20 years before.

And it turns out that they have a kind of shared history, all three

of them, and that their own versions of the past are slightly

conflicting, and there is a crossover between these two women

in their memory. It is complicated, it is about memory and whether you

can trust it. When you're performing, delivering, do you

understand everything you say all the time, or are there so many

interpretations, as there would seem to be, that...? I try to

understand exactly what I mean, if you know what I am saying! There is

an added complication, in that Kristin Scott Thomas and Lia

Williams, two fantastic actresses, are alternating roles. So, for

three or four nights, Kristin Scott Thomas will play my wife, and Lia

Williams will play the visitor. And then, four nights later, they swap

around. Later on in the run, I think we are going to do one

version for the matinee and one for the evening. Occasionally, we will

flip a coin. This is the idea at least. So, if it is complicated in

its normal version... But strangely enough, this kind of shines a light

on the play in an interesting way.. It is not just a gimmick to attract

Hopefully it will work on both of those levels. I responded to this

amazing part and the cast, and then I thought oh, they are swapping as

well, we will work that out. That has worked out to be so much part

of the play that I find it hard to separate it now. Maybe some people

thought it was a gimmick for people to buy more tickets, maybe it will

have that effect as well, but it is not about that. I understand his

widow was there last night, did that go well? We went round to her

house in rehearsals, and she laid on some food and we had a drink,

and she was very welcoming and helpful. We felt a lot of support

from her so it would not have been frightening thing, but the first

time you ever do it, it was wonderful to find out she had been

there but I'm glad I found out after and not before. Why has it

been such a long gap since you were lost on stage? When I left drama

school I did a lot more plays because I could not get any part on

television, but it has been about five years. I finished rock'n'roll

wanting to do another great role as soon as possible, but for some

reason there is a certain level of typecasting I have to work with. I

haven't accepted it, but I have to work within its parameters. In

theatre, no. If I'm offered something based on a previous

success, I'm not really interesting. When you say I have played dark and

brooding characters, I want blonde and bubbly. That is almost a joke,

but anything I have established as a strength, I want to walk away

from. We remember you first from Middlemarch March, do you have

happy memories of that? For me it was interesting because I got two

jobs at the same time. It came from one job - James Saunders' Making It

Better, and the same haircut did for both, luckily. We did a few

weeks in the play, then I would go and shoot Middlemarch a, but it was

followed by an enormous length of unemployment so I didn't get too

excited by it. Parade's End did incredibly well. I think we have a

small club we can play now that chose to in your madness. Left in

the hall... Your friend, another medical man. Take two of course to

certify a lunatic. Oh, very good. It is all about the eyebrows. A how

long does this play last four? We started previews last night so it

was exciting to do it in front of a packed house, and reopen in about

three weeks, for about 12 weeks, and after that, who knows? Thank

you. Yesterday the Labour leader Ed

Miliband delivered a speech in London where he try to flesh out a

team first heard last September at the party conference. Labour is the

One Nation party, but what does it mean? What are the specific

policies behind this opaque phrase? And how seriously does he take

warnings that on economic competence, he has yet to win over

the public. He is with me now. Welcome to the show. Your big idea

at the moment is One Nation Labour, where everybody plays a part. In a

One Nation Britain, why should rich people be able to claim child

benefit? Let me first say, on behalf of myself and everybody

across politics, I wish Andrew Marr a speedy recovery. Best wishes to

him and his family. On One Nation, let me take a step back, what is it

about? It is about the way I want to govern this country, learning

from history which says the way that we have succeeded is by making

sure everybody plays their part and we have rebuilt the country

together. That was the lesson after the Second World War and has always

been the lesson from difficult economic times. That means that you

have got to make sure everybody has an opportunity to play their part,

and also that everybody shows responsibility to the top of

society. To come to your specific question, my way that people at the

top should be paying responsibility is not by cutting the top rate of

income tax. I think universal benefits are important bedrock of

society. I wouldn't have made that choice this government is making,

but neither would I have made a choice to cut the top rate of

income tax from this April. It is a difference of view about how UN

force responsibility. Personally, I think this government is not doing

that at the top. So, you would reverse this? I'm not going to say

that, no. Her can you attack the government for it? A let me explain

because I have got to be telling you what I would do in government

now. I don't know the state of the finances, and I have made it clear

that we will come forward at the election and say exactly what we

would reverse. If I came on to this programme and promised to reverse

this and that, you would be saying how will you be paying for it? I

have got to be saying what I would be doing, what choice as I would be

making in government now. Frankly the government can't tell you what

state the government finances will be in. If everyone should play

their part in a One Nation Britain, why should rich pensioners be able

to claim a free bus pass, a free television licence, and winter fuel

allowance? It goes back to what I said earlier. If you are saying to

me that we should make everything in our society means tested, not

universal, that would include child benefit, the health service, old-

age pension, that is not the road I want to go down because I think

everybody, as part of being a citizen of the country, is entitled

to some basic things. Then the question is how do you make sure

people make a proper contribution, and the where you do that is

through the tax system. I wouldn't be cutting the top rate of income

tax, I would be making another change. At the moment the richest

in society get much more in terms of pensions tax relief than middle-

income families. Ed Balls said the other day... What I don't

understand is this - you are prepared to say we will tax the

rich more on their pension contributions but we will not take

their child benefit from them. I don't see why there is a principled

difference. Because there is an important principle about the way

our country works. If you are saying to me there is one perfectly

legitimate view which I disagree with, which is to means test

everything, that is what you are saying. Millionaires get a free

health service... They get a free health service. I don't see you

coming to me and saying we should means test millionaires when it

comes to the health service. You have a basic foundation that

everybody gets Andy make sure you tax people fairly. Of course we

should look at the balance, but that is the right way forward. In

the end, the government will say they are taking child benefit away,

and they are hitting middle income families, families on 50,000,

60,000, and the prime minister can't answer the question why is it

that... Let me make this point. It is this distinction about why it is

a fair way of doing it. Why is the tax system fairer? Because it

avoids the anomalies. A your message to pensioners this morning

is that there pension benefits are safe? There my message is that the

election will set out what we say. That is another thing you can't

tell us. We introduced the winter fuel allowance, I think it is a

good policy, but I am saying I will come forward at the election saying

precisely what policies we will follow. Isn't it a principle of One

Nation labour that you want to keep universality and not means test.

is important as the bedrock of the system, but why is it so difficult

to make these judgments now? It is because of what is happening to

borrowing in this country. It is going up, not down, and One Nation

labour says we have to operate in different circumstances - there

will be less money to spend. Because of that, we have to make a

different choice on the top rate of income tax, decisions we have

talked about on public sector pay, so across a whole range of areas we

have said why we are in more difficult times and why difficult

decisions unnecessary. You a brother stood up in the House of

Commons this week and said "we need to choose between old-age benefits

or long-term care". He is saying the time has come to make those

choices. I am making choices, but you don't like my choice. I would

like you'd tell me what it means come the next election. If I was in

government tomorrow, we would not be cutting the income tax rate to

45p. This is about what offer you give to British people down the

road. I know, and I think the sensible thing for a party in

opposition to do is to set out, when it comes to the election, its

choices but I think you will have a pretty clear sense of where we

stand on these issues, that we would not run this country in the

interests of a few people at the top. It would be a much fairer

system. This week you voted against a real terms cut in tax credits,

but in a One Nation Britain, shouldn't those on welfare play

their part as well? Of course they should, but the most important

thing we need to do to get the benefits bill down is to get people

back to work. Why is it rising under this government? Not because

George Osborne is being generous to people, but because the government

has failed on the economy. That is why are they are borrowing �212

billion more than they promised. On this deficit issue, you get it down

through a combination of decisions on tax and spending, but growth is

the missing ingredient. We don't have any growth, and that is the

issue this country is facing. you accept, clearly the creation of

jobs would help the benefit bill, not alone, but it is a third of

government spending. Do you accept that at some stage you will have to

cut the welfare bill instead of just promising jobs. The best way

to do that is to get unemployment down. It is the best way because...

Why is the government having to spend more than they forecast on

social security? Not because of generosity but because they are

failing on unemployment. We said we would make a decision on pensions

tax relief for the richest, to put people back to work and say after

two years if you are offered a job you have got to take one. Real

welfare reform is a different choice than what this government is

making. This is about what promises you are making to the British

electorate. It is not reasonable at this stage in the parliament to set

out the precise manifesto. I'm happy to talk about it would we

publish it. You could be prime minister in two years, and yet

there is this gaping lead crooner with the electorate not knowing

what you promise to do. If I don't agree with that. We set out

policies on banking reform, on the way we need to make the vested

interest at the top of our society play by the rules. We set out

policies on energy reform to get a better deal for people. One Nation

is about responsibility going to the top of society and spreading

opportunity. We set out how we get 50% of young people who don't go to

university, how to get them proper qualifications. We have got more

policy than most oppositions half If I was coming along 2.5 years

before an election, without knowing the state of the public finances,

without knowing the state of the economy, giving the details of a

manifesto, you would be saying, that is not responsible. By the way,

Labour do this in the past, in 1992, and it was a mistake. We are not

going to make that mistake. spent the last week attacking the

government on the millionaires' tax cut, as you called it. Raising

attacks like that has nothing to do with the state of the economy in a

couple of years' time. A course it is part of the economy. It is part

of the overall judgment you make about the state of the economy. We

will make sure we have greater tax fairness in this country. I think

the tax system is unfair. I think middle-income families are getting

a raw deal from the tax system, as are low-income families. We could

play this game for the whole interview, where you say, what is

going to be in your manifesto, and I say... Am not asking for a budget,

I am asking for a very specific policy. The top rate of income tax,

the whole thrust of your argument against the government over the

last 10 days, throughout the entire welfare debate, has all been

about... I think it is very unfair... Labour might accept this.

You say it is unfair, but you might accept it. If I was in government

tomorrow, I would be reversing that. By the way, one area where we have

got to take action is tax avoidance. We have got a situation where many

British companies and individuals are paying their fair share of tax.

They looked in horror at a system where some multinational companies

from other countries can make huge profits in Britain and not pay

taxes in Britain. This is scandalous. It has got to change.

The next Labour government will change it. We will end the tax

secrecy. We cannot have a situation where we do not know how much tax

people are paying, against how much profit they are making. I am

serving notice that we will take action, we will end the situation

where you can get away with making big profits in Britain, and with no

justification at all, not pay any tax. Frankly, it is an insult to

hard-working taxpayers in this country. Transparency is one thing

- what else would you do to change the actual tax system itself? A lot

of these companies at the moment are not actually breaking the law...

Well, first of all, the Prime Minister is talking about greater

transparency, and he has got to push for that on an international

basis. But he has also got to say that if it does not happen

internationally, we will make sure that it happens here at home. Why

is that so important? We have got to know how much tax people are

paying, against profits. I think that will make it harder for

companies to do the wrong thing. Secondly, we have got to look at

the rules on how companies can distribute their profits. That is a

problem we have got in relation to this issue. Countries like Denmark

have a much tougher approach. Our policy review will be looking at

those examples and making sure that we act. It is a very clear

statement that I am making, we will act on this issue, James. We cannot

have a situation where companies feel that they can get away without

paying their proper fair share. companies like Amazon, Google,

Starbucks, will not be able to do what they are doing? I am saying

this to all companies. You will have to pay a proper, fair share of

tax in Britain. Let's have a look at the most important issue, the

economy. Peter Mandelson says that your task this year is to increase

to us -- increase trust in Labour's fiscal credentials - why is that

trust not there now? There is always work for the party in

opposition. We had a financial crisis on a global scale while we

were in power. It is something we have got to build. Going back to

our previous conversation, that is why we have not make promises now

about which cuts we would reverse, because we are not going to make

commitments which we cannot afford. That's why our policy review focus

is precisely on this question, how to deliver more with yes. You will

see Andy Burnham talking about greater integration of services in

the Health Service, to make sure that we can deliver more, and even

when there is less money around. Yvette Cooper will be looking at

the police, how to make sure that even in tough times, you can

deliver the kind of policing that people want with less money around.

That is a change from the last government. It is about saying,

there is less money to spend. One- nation Labour is about how we

change our country with having less money to spend. George Osborne has

had to repeatedly changed his plans, he has had an omnishambles budget,

he has had a double-dip recession, and yet people seem to trust him...

They were given the benefit of the doubt by the electorate, and people

said, let's see if it works. I think people are coming to the view

that it is not working. But if you were saying to me, do we have a big

job to do to build that economic credibility? Absolutely, we do. It

was not popular in our party when Ed Balls said, I'm afraid, in this

Parliament, we put jobs ahead of pay in the public sector. It was

unpopular, in fact, but it was the right thing to do. That is a sign

of our determination to be absolutely tough and clear about

the circumstances facing the next Labour government. You mentioned Ed

Balls - does he scare middle- England a little? Can you guarantee

that he will be your Chancellor, will he be Shadow Chancellor at the

next general election? Absolutely. We have said that we will go into

the next election as a team. But what I am not going to do is to

start measuring the curtains for Downing Street. Will he be your

Shadow Chancellor? Yes, he is doing a great job, and he will continue

to do so. He is the person who said, in August 2010, that actually, I'm

afraid, this is not going to work, these plans from the Government. He

turned out to be right. And those kind of good judgements are

incredibly important in politics. So, if David Miliband comes back to

the Shadow Cabinet, he will not be Shadow Chancellor? There is no

vacancy for Shadow Chancellor. me just deal with cabinet issues -

first of all, today, there was this report from the commission, saying

that no fewer than 17 hospitals are operating without enough staff to

be safe... It is a shocking set of findings. You have got a government

which has embarked upon a huge top- down reorganisation of the Health

Service, costing billions of pounds, and actually, we have got 7,000

fewer nurses in the Health Service. The Government has got to explain

what is happening in our hospitals, why this is being allowed to happen,

and has got to take action to do something about it. I think people

will be deeply concerned about what they see, and what action can be

taken.. In the next few weeks, David Cameron will be given a

speech in which he is likely to promise some kind of referendum on

Europe - why do you think the British people should not have a

say over their future relationship with Europe? I think it is

incredibly dangerous, what David Cameron is doing. He is essentially

sleepwalking us towards the exit door from the European Union. Let

me explain why I have made that judgment. If you think about a

young person looking for work today. Think about a small business

looking for a loan from the bank - what can we do to help them? The

last thing we should do is start to say, for some date five, six, seven

years hence, let's decide now to have a referendum on in or out of

Europe. As Michael Heseltine said yesterday, what does that mean? It

means a referendum on a negotiation which has not yet begun, with a

timescale which is uncertain and an outcome which is unknown. Either

way, David Cameron and myself stood shoulder to shoulder in 2007, we

both said this was a bad idea. We know why this is happening, it is

because he is worried about UKIP, and worried about what is happening

within his own party. Just to be clear, there will be no referendum

under a Labour government? There is legislation on the books concerning

any major transfer of power. But I am very clear, the question for now

is, should we commit to a referendum? I am saying very

clearly to you, no is the answer. That is a commitment all the way up

to the next election? I am not going to speculate about years

hence, but I am giving you a very clear view, it is the one thing to

do. While we are on Europe, in the television debates at the next

election, should UKIP have a role? That is up to the people organising

the debates. I have to say, David Cameron I think is not sure whether

he wants to do these debates. I am relishing them, looking forward to

them, I hope they happen, I think they will give an insight to the

public directly into what is happening at the election. Can you

imagine sitting around a Cabinet table with Nick Clegg? What I want

is a majority Labour government. Frankly, I am not going to start

going into the election thinking about coalitions. The I am looking

for a majority Labour government, winning back trust in people. Not

just for people at the top, but for the bars majority of people in this

country. -- the vast majority. Blair changed your party's name to

New Labour, have you changed it to one-nation Labour? I am definitely

using that name. I am not going into a rebranding exercise, but

one-nation Labour is a way forward for this country. It moves on from

old Labour. And it is different from the Conservative Party that we

have. Above all, it is bringing the country together, not dividing, as

David Cameron has been doing. question - you will not tell us

what benefits you will cut, what taxes you will increase, how you

will cut the deficit, but you were clear about a referendum, so my

last question is this - isn't this lack of detail one reason why many

people look at Labour and they say, yes, effective opposition, but they

have not quite made the leap yet to being a genuine, credible

alternative for government? I do not agree -- I do not agree at all.

We have covered all areas from immigration to banking regulation.

We have set out a vision to bring this country together and to help

everybody across the population have opportunity. We have shown

that we will not govern the country for a few which and powerful people.

We are setting out policies, from banking to energy, to helping young

people get qualifications, which will change this country in a

different way, if not by spending more money. That is a big change,

it is different either from the last government, or from this

government. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. Time

for the headlines. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has told this

programme that a future Labour government will act to make sure

that multinational companies pay their fair share of corporation tax.

He said that the party would demand transparency over companies' tax

affairs, and would look at changing the law to prevent companies from

distributing their profits abroad in order to avoid tax in the UK. Ed

Miliband said he was shocked at the report from the Care Quality

Commission, which found that 17 NHS hospitals in England are failing to

provide safe levels of staffing. Labour says that the findings

reflect what it calls a toxic combination of cuts and

reorganisation, but the Government says that the number of NHS

clinical staff has risen since the year 2010. The First Minister of

northern island has appealed for an end to the violent protests over

the flying of the Union flag. Peter Robinson said that the

demonstrations would not change anything, and that the only way

forward was through the political process. 29 police officers were

injured yesterday after coming under fire from bricks and other

missiles during violent clashes between loyalist and republican

factions in east Belfast. That's all from me for now. Here's what's

coming up after this programme. We will have a special edition of the

big question, asking one fundamental question - is it time

for all religions to accept evolution? We have got a panel of

distinguished writers and broadcasters, but others, to

discuss it. That's it for this morning. Next week, Jeremy Vine

will be at the helm, and his guests will include the Deputy Prime

Minister, Nick Clegg, and one of the greatest names in the film