20/01/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Doubtless it's white outside your window. The main

concern for lots of people today will be coping with the snow. But

we'll be spending a bit of our time focusing on a desert, trying to

work out exactly what happened in that terrorist attack in Algeria.

How many people have died? And was the attempt to free them by the

Algerian army botched? Most important of all, is this the

beginning of something we should all worry about? Is the Sahara the

new battleground for al-Qaeda? We'll be addressing all those

issues and more as we review today's papers with the actor David

Morrissey and Deborah Haynes, defence editor of The Times.

The attack on the giant gas complex in Algeria marks a sinister

escalation of terrorism in the region. Governments around the

world have been pulled up short. This was to have been the weekend

when we all digested a big speech on the EU by David Cameron - it was

cancelled. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, cut short his trip

to Australia and is now back in the UK chairing emergency meetings of

the COBRA committee Mr Hague is with us to talk about what exactly

happened in that patch of Algerian desert and what Western governments

can do with al-Qaeda becoming more and more active across North Africa.

The Prime Minister's speech on the UK's relationship with the EU was

one which his supporters hoped would silence his critics on Europe

- none more vocal than the United Kingdom Independence Party. This

morning we'll be asking UKIP's leader, Nigel Farage, if he thinks

Mr Cameron is now starting to play his tune, or at least some of the

notes he wants to hear. We can't promise we'll be joined by

Abraham Lincoln - the American civil war president is long gone,

but his time in office has been turned into a gripping movie by one

of our guests. Steven Spielberg, the greatest of film directors, has

told the story of the way Lincoln ended slavery in America and we'll

talk to him about the movie and how it fits into a stunning run of

films about aliens, adventurers, soldiers and sharks.

Plus we'll have some fine music from a new star who blends her

Jamaican and West African heritage into a modern, soulful mix.

# The person I'm supposed to be. Josephine, who'll be performing

live later in the show. First, the news with Naga Munchetty.

Good morning. Some of the survivors of the

Algeria gas plant siege returned to the UK overnight. David Cameron

says his priority is to bring home all those involved as quickly as

possible. Three British citizens are now known to have been killed.

A further UK resident is also believed dead. The siege came to an

end last night, when Algerian special forces stormed the site in

the Sahara where Islamist militants had been holding hundreds of

foreign and Algerian hostages. The Prime Minister made this statement.

I know the whole country will want to join with me in sending our

sympathy and condolences to the families who have undergone an

absolutely dreadful ordeal and now face life without these very

precious loved ones will stop the priority now must be to get

everybody home from Algeria. I've spoken this morning to our

ambassador in Algiers and this morning will be going again to the

south of the country to help co- ordinate that absolutely vital

activity. West African leaders meeting in

Ivory Coast to discuss the conflict in Mali have called for more

international support for the military intervention there. The

French Foreign Minister, who attended the talks, said France had

been obliged to send in troops, but insisted that African forces will

take over leadership of the operation within weeks.

Tributes have been paid to four climbers who were killed in an

avalanche in Glencoe in the Highlands yesterday. Scotland's

First Minister, Alex Salmond, said their deaths were truly devastating.

Prayers will be said for the victims at a service this morning.

Two people - a man and a woman - survived. The woman is in a serious

condition in hospital. Mountain rescuers make their way

back down the mountain as dark this falls. A group of six climbers were

coming down the mountain close to the three sisters when tragedy

struck. Five of them were swept hundreds of feet down the hillside

after its thought a slab of snow gave way beneath them. The alarm

was raised by another group of climbers and a rescue was launched.

Two men and two women were found dead. One woman was airlifted to

hospital in Fort William where she remains in a critical condition.

Glencoe hasn't had the heavy snow blighting much of the UK, but the

Scottish avalanche Information Service had still deemed the risk

of avalanche considerable. hills look fairly bare of snow and

the avalanche risk and the hazard is very localised. Because of the

cold temperatures, instability is persisting so therefore it may

appeared solid and firm on the surface, but underneath it is

actually quite weak and loose. The hard slab is lying on top of very

soft snow. Alex Salmond said it was an appalling tragedy and that his

thoughts and prayers were with a family of those who had been lost.

Thousands of people who support gun ownership have held rallies across

the United States. They carried copies of the US constitution,

saying they were defending their right to bear arms. The activists

were demonstrating against new laws to regulate firearms. They were

proposed by President Obama after last month's shooting in

Connecticut. The President will be sworn in for his second term today.

A man and two teenage boys have been arrested in east Belfast after

another night of protests over the Union flag. The arrests came after

Loyalists staged a peaceful demonstration at the City Hall,

where the Union flag will be raised today to mark Sophie, the Countess

of Wessex's birthday. It'll be only the second time the flag has been

hoisted since city councillors voted to limit the number of days

it is flown. That's all from me for now. I'll be

back with the headlines just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Jeremy.

Thank you, Naga. In a moment, the papers, but first news of Andrew.

He has been chatting by phone from his hospital bed to our production

team. He is on the mend and he sends a huge thank you to friends

and viewers who have bombarded him with goodwill messages. He say

that's been truly wonderful and that he's really looking forward to

returning to work in due course and resuming duties on a Sunday morning.

Andrew, I gather you are watching right now - good luck from all of

us here with your recuperation. Get well soon! Let's now review the

papers with Deborah Haynes and David Morrissey. Let me go from

David Morrissey. Let me go from that -- through some of the papers.

The Argyriou situation is dominant. The Independent is projecting

forward to what might happen in Algeria. The Observer are on the

other lunch as well. A tragic story A Benefits story on the front page

of the Sun. Hostage story on the front page of the Mirror. The

Express say the police have a photo of Madeleine McCann with her

abductor. Welcome to both of you. But Deborah, this terrible story

from Algeria. The papers are dominated by it. They have been

trying to piece together what happened, which all journalists

have had a problem with it because it is so hard to get precise

details. The Sunday Telegraph has a pretty good blow-by-blow of the

final assault by the ruthless and injures, the name apparently given

injures, the name apparently given to the Algerian special forces, he

went into the gas field yesterday in this final bloody showdown,

which seems to have left 11 of the kidnappers dead, but also seven of

the hostages. You've been writing about it all the week. The papers

this morning seemed to be pretty up-to-date with everything we know.

It is more than my new shy of what actually happened. What happened on

Thursday when the Algerian army launched that first operation that

has been badly criticised? They opened fire on a convoy. In the

Telegraph, there's an account by one of the Filipino workers caught

up in the convoy and he was saying that the gunman behind me was

shooting at a helicopter gunship, it was very loud, he thought he was

going to die and he was waiting for one of the helicopter bullets to

hit him. It sounds absolutely terrifying. Some talk about maybe

quiet leave the UK government and Western governments are pleased

that the Algerian government went in so hard. Absolutely. For any

hostage rescue is going to be risky. Special forces are specifically

trained to limit the casualties. Maybe with the young Algerians they

were not so well experience. But the messages we will not negotiate.

David? Also in the Telegraph by Patrick soya, and horrific

eyewitness description of what happened. Can Albanian chef said

they pulled out one British hostage and they have him quoted saying

they threatened him until they call dealt. -- called out. It is an

horrific account of what happened. Reports that they entered the

country not through Algeria, but through Libya, which is quite

interesting. There's a list of the British hostages. If you say fate

unclear, which is quite nasty. -- After you say. The wider African

problem, the sense of the new-look front of al-Qaeda. That is covered.

The terror and the horror of the last few days is one thing, but the

warning we are getting is this could be the start of things the

gum. The Independent on Sunday has a really good could analysis about

how the UK, the US and our allies are turning their sights on the

North African threat. They describe it as it corridor of terror snaking

from Mali into at least five countries, Nigeria, Niger,

Mauritania, Algeria, Libya and Egypt. For this is not a list that

has suddenly appeared. They have been there for a while, but William

Hague... It is exercising politicians. People have been

jumping up and down about the threat in this part of the world

for a long time, but attention has been focused on Afghanistan and

Iraq and people have been saying we should not put so many fought for -

- resources in Afghanistan. In Mali, of is a big conflict at the moment.

It is a breeding ground. Especially post Libya, all those weapons that

have flooded onto the market, giving people the means to be able

to do this. A David, anything else? Fee international support in Mali.

-- the international support. Whether the French will be in there

on their own ball whether the Mali government will take over. Key in

the Observer you have this piece. It is talking about how they've

spoken to civilians in Mali who were experiencing reports of

killings and other human rights abuses at hands of the Moly troops,

who the French and British are supporting. -- Mali drips. It is a

very, very difficult conflict. Lance Armstrong in the papers.

In the Independent and in the Observer, his public confession on

Oprah Winfrey. What did you make of his acting? Whether it was acting!

It is about the forum he decides to confess in. A massive TV show. The

man who is head of the drugs Investigation Agency in America

says he criticised Armstrong for a TV interview over giving formal

evidence of a dipping investigation. A few weeks ago Armstrong turned

down a chance to give evidence, he chose Oprah Winfrey instead of

giving evidence under oath. He is obviously trying to get back into

the sport. The big thing in the Observer is about how he calls the

to death sentence and his desire is to get back into the sport that he

has disgraced so much. This is the Times. David Walsh. That campaigner

on it. He wrote a book about him. He says the power of Oprah Winfrey

is that when she asked for questions, it was like the story

had broken. He wrote a book about it in 2002, I think. Those press

conferences that Armstrong orchestrated when he won his 7th

Tour de Frances, questions were vetted. He would never answer

questions. The people he has let down and the people who shielded

I mention the avalanche story, which would be leading every paper

if it wasn't for Algeria. Out of order. This is on the Mail on

Sunday. It's really shocking. Four climbers killed in an avalanche in

the UK. It is the sort of headline you expect to have in Switzerland

or France. This happened yesterday. They were part of a party of six.

They were swept away on a mountain called Bidean Nam Bian. But, really

shocking. A real sign of the very heavy snow we have been having.

they saying anything about the climbers being experienced or

under-prepared? It doesn't give too much back ground but they are hill

walkers who have some such experience otherwise they wouldn't

have gone up on a day like yesterday. I did a film in Scotland

in Aviemore and worked with the mountain rescue up there. They put

their life on the line all the time. It is a tragic story.

We'll talk more in a second. We want to speak to you about what you

are acting in, at the moment, David. Are we? Can - we have a clip. Shall

we play it? If it's not too early in the morning. It is Walking Dead,

a TV show. What happened? Guys came through with guns. How many?

don't know. Six or seven. I had never seen them before. Are we

under attack. Everyone go home, lock your doors. We need to keep

everyone safe. Get inside, keep your lights off. It's the same

channel that put the Wire out. The cult classic. Tell us about it.

It's the third season of the Walking Dead. There is a zombie

Apocalypse. It is about communities trying to stay safe in a very

difficult environment. It is the most successful show on American

television at the moment. I play the governor and he runs a gated

community, a protected community. He has done that very well but now

he is under threat. And woe beside anyone who crosses his path. Good

American accent. Thank you very much. We have seen pictures all

over the place with how the Americans deal with snow better

than us. We have been brought to be a standstill. Any snow stories you

want to hit us with. Heathrow is the one, really. These pictures we

all see at this time of year. The terminals looking like refugee

camps. It says the snow is the first significant test from the

airport since BAA invested �50 million in de-icing and snow-

removal equipment after being criticised two years ago by chaos

caused by an inch of snow. We had two inches yesterday. They have

obviously failed that test. And Steve Greenwood from Yorkshire said,

"BA stands for bloody awful." That's his quote, not mine. It is a

competition between Heathrow and Gatwick as to who can get as many

planes off the ground? Did you wake up to fresh snow? At last we are

having proper winter weather. With the prospect for today and the

coming week, we go to the weather coming week, we go to the weather

centre. Absolutely, more snow on the way. A

lot of us are not making up to fresh snow but more snow on the way

for the south-east. The airports will get the snow as well. The

south-east of the UK and then tomorrow, that from from tonight

into tomorrow, north-eastern portions. Let's see how it unfolds.

The south-east gets the most amount of snow through today. Temperatures

around freezing in the London area and most of East Anglia. Just a

smidge yon above freezing for other parts of the country. How much will

we get? Anywhere between 2-8 centimetres it. Doesn't seem like a

lot but remember it is a sensitive portion of the country and a small

amount of sno, as we all know, creates a lot of problems. -- snow.

The snow will make its journey across the north tonight and across

the north-east and into the borders of Scotland around 5.00am. Strong

winds. Blowing snow inland. This is where we will see snow. In the

hills 15 centimetres, half a foot of snow. Tomorrow morning's rush-

hour, worst conditions across northern parts of the UK. It is not

over the snow across the south we. Could see more snow anywhere from

central southern England and heading into London. In between,

for Wales and the south-west, again no significant snowfall over the

next 24 hours, but next week, or rather this coming week, further

wintry weather on the way. It is not over yet by any means.

not over yet by any means. Thank you.

The UK Independence Party has taken a very dim view of Britain's

membership of the EU. However recent polling suggests I what

exercises UKIP voters is not Europe but the thorny issue of immigration.

UKIP has seen a surge in support recently and its leader, Nigel

Farage has been marketing its party in the words of one commentator, as

if it were "a Thatcher-era tribute if it were "a Thatcher-era tribute

band." Is it a compliment? Whether you agree with Thatcher or not, at

least we had politics of conviction in that period. Ideas and general

elections mattered. Now what do we have? Leaders of the so-called main

parties, none of whom have had a job and lived in the real world? It

is difficult to tell them apart. I'll take it as a compliment.

haven't had the come ran speech on the EU, which is much trailed. We

are told there is an in-out vote on Europe. If there is, that's your

job done, isn't it? Ten years ago you couldn't discuss the question

of leading the European Union in polite society. It was considered

beyond the pale to talk about it. The very fact a British Prime

Minister is making a speech on this is a tribute to the thousands of

people who have worked and helped get UKIP established. But job done

then, for you lot? No, job done is when firstly we become an

independent self-governing nation and secondly, when start to put

into practice the things the British economy and British people

need for us to be a proper 21st century country, engaged with the

world and not just Europe. Are we clear on what in-out means? You

have said you can ask that question but others say it is too simplistic.

Really the question is simpler than that. The question is: do you wish

to govern your own country through the ballot box in a democracy or

become a province of a new United States of Europe. That's what it is

auld about. That's a load take on it, isn't it -- What it is all

about. That is exactly what people fear. At the heart of this is the

whole democratic argument - do we want to govern ourselves or are we

prepared to accept nearly all of our law comes from somewhere else,

over which we only have a tiny say? With Lee we leave, we lose the

trade people say -- -- if we leave. We do a huge amount of trade with

the EU and we would do less. The EU is an important marketplace.

Something like 40% of our overseas trade goes into European Union

countries. That is true. That figure declines every year as the

EU itself becomes a smaller part of the global economy. But we want to

go on doing business with the EU and we will. They might not want it

on the same terms. They deaf fitly won't. The last year for which we

have trade figures. They told us �56 billion more than we sold them

flos. Prospect of Mercedes and Volkswagen not wanting to sell

their cars in this country because we are not part of the a political

union. What about the big question. Soon as you say we will have an in-

out referendum, you create uncertainty and people don't

invest? There is uncertainty staying in the EU. Goodness knows

what legislation they will come up with over financial services and

the environment. The world is uncertain. Even if we accepted that

argument, that means what Mr Cameron ought to do is to say -

right we are going to have a full, free and fair referendum on this

before the next general election. What this speech apparently is

going to offer us is the idea that if he wins the next general

election - which looks doubtful - after a renegotiation, which I

don't believe to be possible because the other Member States of

Europe aren't in the mood, then in five years' time he will give us a

referendum. The trouble is, we have heard this all before from Mr

Cameron. Frankly, I don't trust him. Is your party ready for the big

time people ask? People say - they look at the members who start

populateing your forums and some are Reyesists and anti-gay -- are

racists. I don't think the racist slur works. We are the only party

in British politics who don't allow people to be a member if they have

been part of the BNP. We are a party that believes in free speech.

I know on forums, people go over the top. Somebody said in your

forum - schizophrenia is caused by black inbreeding in the Caribbean.

Labour would say throw them out people go over the top we do throw

them out. Over the last few years, people have been removed from UKIP.

There is a balance between free speech and fre debate.

A senior member be branded gi rights a lunatics charter. What is

she doing in the party? -- gay rights. She is not a senior member.

She is still in the party. She has resigned as an officer ever Will of

our Oxford branches I'm pleased to say. You do not throw people out.

This happens, don't think it is just UKIP. It happens in the Tory

and Labour Party. All party leaders face this. What about a possible

alyance with the Conservatives now? I thought we were going to laugh

when I said that. If you go foot next election and let's say the

Coalition falls apart but they are the biggest party and turn to you.

I think with David Cameron as leader it is impossible to

contemplate. It is interesting, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg, they don't

agree with what UKIP stands for but they recognise we have a sensible

point of have you that is held by a large number of people in this

country. Mr Cameron, whenever he is asked about UKIP throws abuse at us

and calls us nutters and closet race racists. I don't think there

is any prospect of us doing a dealing with the Conservative Party

with Mr Cameron in charge. On a national level but maybe local

deals, maybe moving aside when you like the cut of a particular

Conservative candidate? It may happen but it is not my priority.

My priority is to take UKIP forwards. People support us because

of where we stand on Europe and on open-door immigration and where we

stand on windfarms springing up and where we stand on attitudes towards

small business. My job is to push this party forwards, not drag it

back. Thank you for joining us. Steven Spielberg is surely one of

the most successful Hollywood film directors of all time. In a career

spanning nearly 40 years he has mastered every genre from sci-fi

action and adventure to war-time dramas. Close Encounters, Jaws, ET,

Jurassic Park, it's Indiana Jones movies, he has a roll-call of box

office hits and then there is Schindler's List addressing the

Holocaust for which he won his second os ka and Saving Private

Ryan. Well his latest film, Lincoln is a homage to the President who

ended the Civil War and slavery in America. It features a towering

performance from Daniel Day-Lewis. But there are precious few battle

scenes. It focuses on the political horse-trading by which Abraham

Lincoln achieves his ends. Steven Spielberg spoke to me yesterday

from Paris. I asked him why he chose to tell Lincoln's story in

that way. There was no way I could possibly communicate the greatness

of Abraham Lincoln and the flaws and the prevarications and all the

things he was both extoled and criticised for, without allowing

all of us to explore Lincoln doing work, doing one very, very

critically important thing. And to see him in the process of politics,

to see him as a working President, not as a sitting or opposing

President, from my way of thinking, was the only way to give - share

our insights into him with everyone else. We'll win the war, Sir, it is

inevitable, isn't it? We ain't won yet. You'll begin your second term

a semi divine stature. Imagine the possibilities peace will bring. Why

battle in the House? It is a rat's nest in it there. The same gang of

talentless hicks and hacks who rejected the amendment ten months

ago. We'll lose. I like our chances now. Have you ever had to chase an

actor as hard as you chased Daniel Day-Lewis?? It was harder to get

him to commit to playing Lincoln than it was to get Kate to marry me.

You did it. Give us some lessons for the modern day. It is an

absolutely gripping film but it takes place obviously more than 150

years ago. I'm wondering, I know President Obama has seen this in

the White House, he is inaugurated tomorrow for his second term. I

don't know what he said to you after he watched it, but what is

the message you hope the sitting President will get out of your

A great President like Lincoln his mind full, patient, compassionate

and not afraid to compromise. He knew there was already a great

divide between the sovereign states and the northern states over

slavery. -- Southern states. To further be divided in what to do

about it would have made this war go on and on. This is a story about

leadership, but it's also a story about the right man at the right

time. I'm not sure Abraham Lincoln with the TV camera now the fourth

branch of government, I'm not sure the camera would have liked Lincoln

enough that he would have been able to become Mayor of the city in this

day and age! Lincoln's credo from the beginning was Union. Underneath

that, he knew that slavery, which caused the splitting up other

country, needed to be ended legally first before the war finished.

wondering whether there's a moderate -- modern parallel.

Whether politicians have to search harder for right and wrong. Look at

gun-control for President Obama. is gun-control, immigration, but

the jobless rate, the economy in America. It is outsourcing jobs. It

is so many different things. Instead of the civil war that

threatened to end democracy in our nation forever, instead of that

it's just a lot of very, very critical issues, critical to

mainstream America. I really believe in Barack Obama, I think he

will do amazing in the second term. The one lesson to learn from

Lincoln is you've got to commit to something and you've got to fight

tooth and nail for it. Kit is not just link and the politician, it is

Lincoln these human being and particularly Lincoln the father. We

come back to a theme that goes through so many of your films, from

ET with the absent father, Jaws, the father in prison in Schiegl and

Express, the father a child relationship is central for you.

that sense maybe Lincoln is the Gruber father of all my films!

might not even want to be a lawyer. It is a sturdy profession. And a

useful one. I want to be useful, but now, not afterwards. I am not

wearing those things. You are delaying, your favourite tactic.

You won't tell me no, but the war will be over in a month. Her I made

a lot of conscious choices about my films that have a father-son

dynamic. This was a father and a country about to be torn in half

and what he did about it. I don't consider this movie to be about my

own dad. I'm not indulging myself in that old habit. This is about an

extraordinary figure in not just American history, but world history.

When you look at your most personal films, they're all personal to some

degree, but your most personal ones, would you pick a couple at? If they

all personal because it is not an impersonal art form. It never has

been. ET comes to mind. That had the most profound impact on my life.

I wanted to have kids after kind of raising those children for three

months as the director, as the surrogate dad. I had never been

seized with any notion to have children of my own, but after ET,

that changed my life. I go to the cinema with my young kids and

everybody is coming out of the screen and every shot is three

seconds long. It is not just three D, it is CGI, everything. You are

about stories. You must want to resist that. I like an audience to

participate in the story I'm telling. If an audience has a

chance to look at a movie that isn't so quickly cut that they get

to make visual choices themselves of who and when to look at

something or someone, I feel that makes the audience a collaborator

with me as a film-maker. My movies don't move as fast as some of the

current pictures. If it is a good story, that is the only important

thing. No matter what technology comes along, whether it is three D

of virtual reality, you have to tell a good story. I wanted to ask

you about Alfred Hitchcock fair run stories about the dealings you had

with him at the start of your career. Did you meet him? What was

he like as Mike I never met him. tried to. I went on the set of torn

Curtain and the assistant director of threw me off. After I made Jaws

I went on to the set of his last film and I got to see him from the

back. I was behind him, about 20 feet. He couldn't possibly have

seen me, but he made a gesture like this with his finger. The assistant

director walked over and Hitchcock was did to him. The assistant

director turned and looked directly to me. He asked me to leave. I had

a journalist with me doing a story about my directing jaws. It was

kind of an embarrassing situation. I had brought a journalist to say I

can get onto a Hitchcock set. He threw both of us off! That is my

only story about him. Those and all of his great films. Finally, any

sense of the future? There is talk of you doing Star Wars seven. I

wonder if you might make a film about Barack Obama. Any hints?

no. I've told George Lucas in the past for time the guy that brings

the aliens down to earth, I am not the guy finding them in outer space.

I'm not his man for Star Wars. 7, 8, 20, whatever, it is not me. I have

a lot of movies I am interested in making, but they're all in

different stages of development. It is always fun to go back to work do

find out which movies will grip me. Great to talk to you, thank you.

Thank you. The director Steven Spielberg -

another victim of the bad weather. We were due to meet in London, but

he got stuck in Paris, poor man. By the way, there'll be a longer

version of that interview on our website.

The hostage crisis in Algeria was brought to an end yesterday, but

further loss of life was reported. The Prime Minister said this

morning that three British nationals have died and a further

three are feared to have died and a pressure Dresden was also killed. I

am joined by William Hague. You have some precision now about

the numbers on the British side. The numbers have got clearer with

the end of the military operations. There are three British nationals

who have died and through whom we believed to have died, in addition

to one person who is not a British national, but was resident in the

UK. There were 22 other British nationals caught up in this

terrible ordeal. They are now back in the UK. We brought them back and

BP brought others back on chartered flights overnight. They are being

reunited with their loved ones. Chrabot from the people who have

died, everybody is now accounted for. -- apart from the people.

There were conflicting accounts today over whether those who died

in the last 24-48 hours were killed before the final assault and

triggered the final assault or whether they were killed during it.

Do you know? Not yet. There will be a process of debriefing people who

have been hostages, but it is very important that they are first

reunited with their families. There will be further discussions with

the Algerians. The Algerians believed that the lives of the

hostages were always in imminent danger, that the terrorists were

planning to blow up the entire installation. That is what the

Algerian foreign minister told me yesterday. This is one of the

reasons why they acted as they did. There's controversy and speculation

about that, but the full picture will take some time to emerge.

of the papers has the word executed. I don't know... That is presumably

speculation, that they were not killed and a battle, but

deliberately killed. It is speculation. I hope and believe

that picture will become clearer, but we don't know that definitively.

That sort of thing is quite likely to have happened. Quite likely?

From the nature of the terrorists involved, the nature of their

captivity the imposed on the hostages and of course the Algerian

forces, although sometimes criticised, will have taken every

care they could to save life. Whatever people think about them

and whatever has been said about the Algerian military, they are

experienced. In the 1990s they fought a very long battle against

an insurgency. You are looking at a very experienced and powerful army.

That raises the question about whether they went into hard. In a

situation like that, that can be a mistake as well. It can. As we know

ourselves from the very difficult decisions about when to launch a

hostage rescues, and we've been faced with these decisions on a

smaller scale several times over the last few years. Sometimes we've

pulled a hostage out allied and sometimes sadly not. You have to

balance these things. How imminent is the threat to life? What are the

chances of success? What are the chances of negotiation? The

Argyriou and authorities will have had to bear all of that in mind. --

at the Algerian authorities. We would have liked to have been

consulted, but they decided, as a sovereign country, that this was

something on their soil that they would deal with and they needed to

deal with it urgently. Therefore it is important not to jump into

criticised from what we know at the moment. We need to continue to work

with them over the coming days, not only to learn more about what

happened and learn lessons together about dealing with any future such

incidents, but also we are working with them on the identification and

repatriation of the bodies of those British nationals killed. You say

it is their sovereign soil, but it is to some extent our citizens

involved and therefore you might have been expected to brought in. I

wonder whether you think they were too worried about the actual plant

being destroyed, for example. That might be a consideration you would

not have wanted them to have. these are legitimate questions. We

have talked to them a great deal. The Prime Minister has had many

conversations with the Prime Minister of Algeria. They've been

very responsive to the need for constant discussion, but they did

not consult anybody before launching that operation. Fees are

other situations -- these are extraordinary difficult situations.

These are people who have also lost their nationals, who have suffered

a terrorist attack on their soil. For people who were responsible for

what happened of the cold-blooded murderers who while the terrorists,

for which there is no political justification of any kind. We

should also show our clear sympathy and solidarity with the people of

Algeria and the government of Algeria at such a difficult time.

Let's talk about the threat. It is not just Algeria. In the last two

weeks there has been a lot of coverage of al-Qaeda in Mali.

That's right. There are links between groups in many different

countries. Al-Qaeda deer -- al- Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. In

the case of northern Mali, and insurgency allied with elements of

al-Qaeda has been able to gain control of the north of that

country. It has threatened the centre of that country. That is why

France intervened militarily slowly -- militarily. This has been an

emerging problem for some time. Ferag deep problems -- there are

deep problems in Africa, including humanitarian problems. For some

time, we've been working on this. We are helping hundreds of

thousands of people with humanitarian aid, we've increased

counter-terrorism work, we are working with France and the United

Nations to try to bring political stability. With that situation

ongoing, it has not grown up in the last couple of weeks, if you were

are a British national working in an oil or gas installation been the

Sahara, in any of those countries, It depends where you are. Algeria,

Mali, you name it. There are places in that region where we already

advise against all travel. And after the French intervention we

called for - we advised in our travel advice, additional vigilance.

There are vast areas of the Sahara where we advise against all but

essential travel. This wasn't one of them. The place where that gas

plant was, was an area where you were saying - don't go. Not saying

don't go, but we advised regional vigilance. There was no specific

intelligence about this attack, so we couldn't warn people about that.

Is it a difficult and dangerous area? Yes, it is. Do look it the

nations of that region to protect our nationals, to police their

borders effectively and so on? Yes, of course, we do. Bearing in

maintained these are vast and Avon unmarked borders in one of the most

inhospitable regions of the world. You wouldn't widen your advice to

say - British workers in the Sahara, don't go? Or don't go without

military? The advice - our travel advice already states that -

against all but essential travel to within 450 kilometres of the

borders of Mali or 100 kilometres of the borders of Mauritania, if

you are in Algeria. The advice is quite specific. We will keep that

up-to-date of course based on all the information we have. What about

the direct action by the British, by this country, against Al-Qaeda

in this area? In Mali we are behind the French, rather than alongside

them, aren't we? Yes, we are. Of course, we will work with other

nations across the region. It is working with the countries of that

region to address not only any military situation, but to make

political progress, to try to separate from Al-Qaeda other people

who are very discontented with their position in the world and

with their situation, but are not the sort of murders who we have

seen launching this attack. So that is very important, too and

delivering the humanitarian assistance. We can make progress in

these situation bus we have to do it urgently. Last -- in these

situations but we have to do it urgently. If you look at the other

end of Africa, which has also had huge problems with insurgency, with

familiarin and a failed state in Somalia. Since the London

conference in February, we have a legitimate government and progress

made by African forces against an Al-Qaeda-associated insurgency, a

reduction in pirate attacks. We have to make this progress in the

west of Africa, but without going through 20 years of being a failed

state as somealia. This has to be our objective. You obviously have

conversations with the frefpblg and with Hillary Clinton in the USA --

with the French. Is it still operating with their

forces rather than going into directly? The primary way of

operating has to be with the countries of the region. That is

the only way to enjoy the greatest- possible legitimacy and bring about

a political solution. Obviously there are disadvantages to putting

forces from another continent in African soil. The French have had

to do what they have done. This was an emergency. We support them. The

insurgency was starting it threaten the capital of Mali itself. But our

primary way of working has to be with the forces and political

leaders of the countries of that region, so that the people and

leaders of that region own the solution. Should people be worried,

though, about this gradually sucking Britain in directly? Well,

I think people would support the approach that I have just laid out.

Clearly in the case of Mali we have not sent British combat troops. We

will take part in training in the EU military training mission that

was decided on last week, to help the African forces in the region.

We are helping the French. So that's how we are going about it

and very much directed at supporting a political process as

well. I can't really stress that strongly enough. There isn't a

military solution to all the problems of the area. There is a

complex mixture of political and economic solutions and we have to

work at at that with the United Nations and with France and the

countries of the region. Let's move to the EU speech that was going to

happen and didn't. It has been scheduled for a while. It keeps not

happening. When is it happening? This Prime Minister's EU speech?

will happen this week. It would have happened on Friday but

everybody undersnands these circumstances it was necessary to

postpone the speech -- everybody understands in these circumstances.

It will happen in the coming week. We will make an announcement about

when and where tomorrow. Is this your party running scared the of

the guy we had on earlier, Nigel Farage? No, it is about doing what

is best in the interests of this country and also about democracy in

this country. And the Prime Minister and I have said last year

that we want to get a better relationship with the European

Union. There are changes we want in that relationship. Though we also

need to see how the changes in the eurozone are affecting the European

Union and how that affects this country and receiptlationship of

the countries of the EU together -- the relationship. But when we have

done these things, there is a strong consensus for fresh consent

for the people of this country having their say. Which is an in-

out referendum as discussed earlier? Well wait for the speech.

It is leaked over the papers. will have to seat speech in its

entirety to get the full context. - - see the speech. It is about this

country and about make success of the membership of the European

Union but with democratic consent for that, in its modern form, in

the best form that we can bring about. I remember watching you in

the 2001 general election, ten days to save the pound and all that, I'm

asieming you will vote "out", will you? -- assuming. The Prime

Minister will make clear his approach, which is similar to my

approach, which is that we want to succeed in the European Union, an

outward looking EU to succeed in the world and for the United

Kingdom to succeed in that. We have to recognise that the European

Union has changed a lot since the referendum of 1975. There have been

not only great achievements to the EUs name but things that have gone

wrong such as the euro. I was right in 2001 to argue that we shouldn't

join the euro. We must never join it. The message to the EU is - must

change or the UK may leave? That's the fundamental message? Well the

EU must change. It is having to change in many ways because.

Eurozone crisis. There are ways in which we want it to change as well

that will make it better for the UK but that will also make it better

for the other nations of Europe. The Prime Minister will set out the

case for that in his speech and how we should go about seeking

democratic consent for that. I think that would be the right way

forward for the interests of this country. Now the news headlines:

The Prime Minister has confirmed that there has been a number of

British deaths in the Algerian hostage crisis. David Cameron said

that three British nationals were killed, and a further three are

believed to be dead. A British resident also died. Algerian

special forces ended the siege at a gas facility in the Sahara

yesterday because they said that the Islamist kidnappers were

planning to blow up the site. Mr Cameron made a statement about the

latest developments just over an hour ago. Of course people will ask

questions about the Algerian response to these events but I

would just say that the responsibility for these deaths

lies squarely with the terrorists who launched this vicious and

cowardly attack. I would also say that when you are dealing with a

terrorist incident on this scale, with up to 30 terrorists, it is

extremely difficult to respond and to get this right in every respect.

The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, told this programme that the

Algerian armed forces were very experienced and would have taken

every care to save the lives of hostages during their military

operation. He said that the surviving Britons had all been

traced and some returned to the UK overnight. Mr Hague also confirmed

that the Prime Minister's speech about Europe, delayed because of

the hostage crisis, will take place this week.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at midday.

We'll get tpwook Jeremy and guests in a moment but first a look at

what it coming up after this programme. -- we'll get back to

Jeremy. Join us in a snow-free Glasgow where after Lance

Armstrong's confess, we will ask - is it ever too late to confess. We

will be asking if girls are being robbed of innocence and as we talk

about legal highs, we will ask - should it be legal to get high?

The Foreign Secretary is still with me and we are joined by Nigel

Farage and Deborah Haynes. You could sort it all out now, you two,

this in-out referendum? You will have to wait for the speech. I'm

sure he is, yes. It is clear what the Foreign Secretary said - he

wants to us stay in and wants it to change. I think what is happening,

we will get the speech and the Conservative Party will launch a

fif-year campaign to keep us in the European Union. -- five year. It is

clear what the terms will be. It is reminiscent of 1975 when Harold

Wilson came back with a cosmetic renegotiation. Don't let him take

over. It is about doing what is best for the country and people

will have their say. In general elections or referendums. Why not

now? It is very important not only for people to be able to see what

happens in the eurozone crisis, and how it affects the rest of the

European Union and to see whether we can succeed and how we can

succeed in improving our relationship. People will want to

note answer. Is this a good use of political time for the governing

party, do you think? At a time like at the moment when you are facing a

massive crisis in Africa, I guess it is a bit of ady version but it

is a huge issue that affects everyone in the country. People are

really - people care more about that, really, than they care about

Al-Qaeda killing people in Africa. I guess compared to the economy and

all those issues you deal West Africary day, the 2001 election,

which we mentioned, you in the end went back to some more local

issues? Well all of the issues matter in politics. What happens in

the European Union matters. It affects so many things, so many

aspects of people's lives. It does. I agree with that entirely. Some

would argue neglecttively, some positively, some would say there is

a mixture and we have to improve how much affects our lives

positively. That is the majority view. David Cameron before gave us

a cast-iron guarantee he would give us a referendum over Lisbon and

this becomes a question of trust. That's almost it for this week.

Sophie Raworth will be here next Sunday at 9.00pm --am, and eel'

talk to the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg and she'll also be

talking to Daniel Day-Lewis. We'll leave you now with a wonderful song

frn a bright new star from British music -- a wonderful song from a

Brit new star from British music, Josephine and the title song from

her new album. # We are, are society

# We are, what we saw on tv # When we were tiny

# Am I a portrait of the person I'm supposed to be?

# Am I a portrait of the person I'm supposed to be?

# And how would I know? # We are constantly, trying to

prove our world -- worth # Building higher and

higher, the writings on the wall # Every rose we grow, we named it

# Am I a portrait of the person I'm supposed to be?

# Am I a portrait of the person I'm supposed to be?

# And how would I know? # If I'm a portrait of the person

I'm supposed to be # How would I know?

# If I'm a portrait of the person I'm supposed to be