Browse content similar to 03/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good morning. The British aristocracy still has an influence | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
abroad, it seems. When departing American Secretary of State Hillary | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
Clinton had her private farewell dinner this week, the cast of her | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
favourite show, which is actually Downton Abbey, recorded a personal | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
goodbye to her. Aristocracy and jazz coming up in our programme | :00:50. | :00:57. | |
this morning. Together with politics, both American and British. | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
Here to look through today's papers, the editor of The Spectator | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
magazine, Fraser Nelson. And an expert on public opinion, the | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
former pollster Deborah Mattinson. First, a Prime Minister with a | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
fight on his hands over Europe. Unstable and brutally oppressive | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
regimes in the Arab world. And the dilemma of intervention in African | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
conflicts. Not just David Cameron, but Tony Blair. It's all familiar | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
territory to a man who spent a decade in Number 10 and who was | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
challenged on similar fronts to those facing today's occupant. This | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
morning we'll be asking Tony Blair how would he tackle the new, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
emerging terrorist threat? What he makes of the promised referendum on | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
Europe? And what the Labour party needs to do now if it's to reclaim | :01:40. | :01:47. | |
the keys to Downing Street. I'll also be talking to a man who once | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
came within a whisker or perhaps "a hanging chad" of becoming President | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
of the United States. Former Vice President Al Gore, one of the | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
world's foremost voices on the impact of climate change. He's been | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
telling me why he remains optimistic about the future despite | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
his gloomy analysis of US politics and big business. And talking about | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
the deal that's made him a multi- millionaire. Also this morning, a | :02:09. | :02:19. | |
:02:19. | :02:23. | ||
new BBC Drama, Dancing On The Edge, # Are happy to see you... | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
A slick and sexy jazz age production by one of our greatest | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
television dramatists. The writer and director Stephen Poliakoff is | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
here with one of the programme's stars, Jacqueline Bisset. Before | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
all that, the latest news from Naga Good morning. The leaders of | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
Afghanistan and Pakistan are in Britain for two days of talks with | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
David Cameron as part of efforts to prevent a Taliban resurgence when | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
British troops leave the region. The Prime Minister will dine with | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
Hamid Karzai and Asif Ali Zardari at Chequers this evening, before a | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
formal meeting tomorrow which will also involve senior security | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
officials from all three countries. The discussions are part of a | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
process initiated by Mr Cameron last year. A spokeswoman said a | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
very clear message was being sent to the Taliban that now was the | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
time for everyone to participate in a peaceful political process in | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
Afghanistan. There are new claims by some nurses that staffing levels | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
in parts of the NHS are dangerously low. A survey of nearly 600 nurses | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
by Nursing Times found three quarters of them had witnessed what | :03:25. | :03:35. | |
they considered to be poor care in their ward or unit in the last year. | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
Last month, David Cameron announced his intention to improve nursing | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
standards. He said he wanted nurses to carry out Ali walked round to | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
check on patients. Now a survey by Nursing Times magazine has raised | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
questions about staffing levels in NHS hospitals. Around 600 nurses | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
took part and over half described their unit as sometimes always | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
dangerously understaffed. About three-quarters said they had | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
witnessed what they considered to be poor care in the award over the | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
past year. And of those, around one-third said it happened | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
regularly. It calls into question the standard of care offered to | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
patients. Nurses are doing bedside observations, looking at the | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
patience, and making sure the patient experienced are poles | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
privacy and dignity which are very important to patients. Without | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
nurses being properly resourced, those things are going to suffer. | :04:33. | :04:43. | |
:04:43. | :04:49. | ||
The survey comes as the public inquiry into the failings at the | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust prepares to publish its report this | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
week. A woman from East London who was | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
disfigured when acid was throw in her face has spoken about the | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
assault in the hope it will help police catch her attacker. 20-year- | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
old Naomi Oni says she was attacked by a woman wearing a hijab. No | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
arrests have been made but police say inquires are continuing. Her | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
life ahead affair, before she suffered an acid attack, just | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
minutes from her home. This was really, really painful. Her life | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
changed in an instant. I just felt a splash. I just felt something | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
literally thrown at me, a splash. And I ran home, I ran up down at my | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
road, screaming hysterically, shouting on the phone to my | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
boyfriend to call 999. I got to my door and I shouted, acid, acid, | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
acid. The attack happened after midnight on 30th December. She had | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
been working at the West Hill shopping centre in Stratford. She | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
took the eight-mile journey home getting off the bus at the Lodge | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
Avenue in Dagenham. She says she has no idea who attacked her and | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
each day asks herself why me? Eight more people have been arrested by | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
police investigating the murder of a teenager in London a week ago. | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
16-year-old Hani Abou El Kheir was found stabbed near his home in | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
Pimlico. Police believe up to ten people were involved in the attack. | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
A 20-year-old man arrested on suspicion of murder on Thursday has | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
since been bailed. That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the | :06:36. | :06:45. | |
headlines just before 10.00am. Back Thanks, Naga. Now, on the front | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
pages today. Starting with the Telegraph, a picture of the Prince | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
of Wales and Camilla. He spoke of overwhelming challenges facing | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
committees surviving in the economic downturn. The main story | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
is about the vote taking place about gay marriage on Tuesday. The | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
Telegraph suggests down and she expects 120 of David Cameron's MPs | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
will vote in favour of legalising homosexual unions. Leaving around | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
180 Conservative members likely to abstain or vote against. The Sunday | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
Times has a picture of Chris Robshaw, the England rugby captain, | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
watched by Princess and lifting the Calcutta Cup after they overpowered | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
Scotland 38-18. The main story about the head of Britain's biggest | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
arms manufacturer, which at the Sunday Times says allegedly | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
acquired penthouses from the Saudi Arabian royals. The Observer have a | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
picture of Mo Farah and his wife and daughter. She has been speaking | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
out about school funding and school sports funding, and is opposed to | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
school sport cuts. The main story about Michael Gove, plunged last | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
night into what the Observer called a potentially toxic row over | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
allegations that members of the department had used to Twitter to | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
launch highly personal attacks on journalists and political opponents. | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
The Independent have a story about the rail line which was announced, | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
the cost to Britain's wildlife, they ask its progress? The Sunday | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
Mirror has an interview with Paul Gascoigne, who says he can't live | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
without a drink. The Sunday Express is talking about carbon monoxide | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
monitors in aeroplanes, talking to a Canadian expert. The Sun | :08:42. | :08:50. | |
newspaper reports one direction's Harry has been having a bit of fun. | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
Those are your main stories this morning. A I'm going to start with | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
the big political story of the week. The gay marriage vote. It's all a | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
bit of a nightmare for David Cameron. What is going to the out | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
come here? My thought really is what the public think of this? Here | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
is the dilemma. Two-thirds of the public support gay marriage, but | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
the third that don't are the ones that concern David Cameron because | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
a 20% of Tory voters say they would consider not voting Tory if the | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
Tory vote sport gay marriage. This gives him a real problem. What is | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
he going to do because will those people go off to UKIP? They are not | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
about Europe, but it's all about the right-wing of the Tory party | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
and what's going to happen there and I think it's very problematic. | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
What do you think will happen on Tuesday? Well, a lot of their | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
members are saying, we are not going to turn up and campaign for | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
you because you are attacked and are so much, like the Prime | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
Minister doesn't like Conservative Members any more. The funny thing | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
is, so will punish its bill was a far bigger deal than gay marriage, | :10:07. | :10:15. | |
but it was done a lot more deftly without any of this, saying we are | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
right and you are wrong, and that's what constituents don't like. It's | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
not so much the idea of civil partnerships, we're talking about | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
the word here, calling at marriage. Legally, it's exactly the same, and | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
it's making a lot of them think that maybe it's time for a new | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
leader. The Sunday Times has got a wonderful picture today of the | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
various Tories lining up behind David Cameron with pickaxes in | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
their hands waiting for his return from Africa. When you read it, | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
there's lots of grumbling, nothing which resembles an organised plot. | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
Who would stand against him? Before the election, hardly anybody, I | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
think, but if you look at the bookmaker's odds, the odds are that | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Ed Miliband will be the next Prime Minister and the Tories will face | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
leadership elections within two and a bit years. They are already | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
thinking, who will be in the election? Be careful what you wish | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
for because David Cameron consistently performs ahead of the | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
party. Is there anybody who would be better? Theresa May? She was | :11:24. | :11:34. | |
:11:34. | :11:36. | ||
mentioned yesterday. Are there any names in the frame? So many. I | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
think he is a front man. Look at the new intake, the Treasury | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
minister would be brilliant, the schools minister, so much a new | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
talent, who will be ripe in about 2020. Boris is the only one have | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
also been a focus groups, if you ask people about the Tory party, | :11:55. | :12:02. | |
they go into raptures about Boris. Those small details won't matter. | :12:02. | :12:11. | |
He is the bookies favour to the For the what else have you got? | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
Following on a directly from what Fraser was saying, who are the real | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
Tory modernisers? I just noticed flipping back here, at the back of | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
that, at the bottom here, in the Sunday Times leader peace, an | :12:26. | :12:34. | |
apology, a tiny little apology for the cartoon which caused so much | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
trouble being very tactlessly published on a Holocaust memorial | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
day last week. The thing which struck me was that I had missed the | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
first time around, and it's one of the things Lord Leveson has said, | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
these apologies are tiny compared to the trouble caused. He wasn't | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
talking about cartoons, though. was taught me that things he didn't | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
like, inaccurate stories, using it foul up methods to expose the | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
private lives of people but we are in the era of press penitence,... | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
This is not very penitent, I would say. How many apologies has Rupert | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
Murdoch personally apologised for? Apologies don't get much bigger | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
than News Corp saying, sorry, this was a terrible mistake. Gerald | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
Scarfe, the offending cartoonist, has done a cartoon of a big cat | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
today. Michael Gove, on the front pages, suggesting there are some | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
nefarious Twitter thing it going on at where the education department | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
is basically a annoying its journalists to say nasty things | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
about them. It's fascinating, the ratio of between Twitter and the | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
printed press. What happened here, this tour to account from a | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
journalist, there was a splash on the newspaper spread, an editorial, | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
and if unit at the offending words here, I don't know, 120 words in | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
total, about 2000 words Britain... An anonymous account, though? | :14:17. | :14:24. | |
it's pretty much anonymous, Twitter. The parties are thinking, we can | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
enter the debate with Twitter. We are being followed by a few 1,000 | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
people. It's interesting to see that the press are giving Twitter | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
the status which I suppose it has, although it's not entirely clear | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
what the main offence was. It's described as an investigation. I'm | :14:45. | :14:53. | |
not quite sure what they found. There is an eagerness had to link | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
this to Damian McBride and past bad behaviour in politics, and I think | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
there is a really big story here. Certainly one of the public gets, | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
which is that the disenchantment with politics generally, and I | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
think that's what the real story is here. I don't know actually whether | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
it's fair in the case of Michael Gove, it's not Clare, but talking | :15:16. | :15:26. | |
:15:26. | :15:33. | ||
$:/STARTFEED. What it means, is the reputation of politicians sinks | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
lower and lower. I think we could be heading to record small turnout | :15:39. | :15:48. | |
:15:49. | :15:50. | ||
at the next election because people are so fed up Berkcw has picked up | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
on this. He says "shot shouting, behave | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
better in the House." It clearly drives the Speaker mad. Quite | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
rightly. I think that unless MPs start to behave a bit better people | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
will... How many European Parliament debates can you | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
remember? How many Scottish Parliament debates? It is the | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
rowdyness that makes them. If you think of the top three Commons' | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
moments. They will be moments of huge noise and drama in the House. | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
I think that's what makes our Parliament worth... You think that | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
because you are the Westminster village. The public do not think | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
that. I have a more positive story which I found about behaviour of | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
MPs. This is a Tory, who is a little bit of a hero. He is one of | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
the backbench MPs who makes a difference. I ran a citizens jury, | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
curiously in Harlow, his constituency. I asked people what | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
politicians should do to improve their behaviour. They pointed out | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
nobody learns to be an MP, and don't get proper training. Why | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
don't they have apprenticeships? He is having an apprentice. How would | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
that work?, I gather that this young man is going to shadow him | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
and watch him and train... He will be running the Tory Party by the | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
end. Here he is. You heard it here first. The end of Punch and Judy | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
politics. Maybe. If he is trained well. What story do you have? | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
this is a story in a few papers about how the Government is | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
planning cuts. It wants to exspanned the SAS because the | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
special forces are good -- expand. The Prime Minister wished he could | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
have used them in the Algerian hostage crisis. But the MoD is | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
axing 600 supportive posts for the SAS which brings into question | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
right now the big issue behind Cameron's new foreign policy. He is | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
going out to Africa saying he wants to enter a generational struggle, | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
in his words, to shut down the ungoverned space about the size of | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
France. And the military is smaller than it was during the Labour years. | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
The Observer has a good cartoon today, actually, where they show | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
the great elephant of Trident replacement, a huge multi-billion | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
pound project, just stamping past the mouse of Al-Qaeda this goes to | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
show the difficult decisions that lie ahead. If you want a problem | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
that can sort the problems over there, you have to pay for it. And | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
can you afford Trident at the same time? And if you do pay for it, the | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
public are going to say - why are you spend mung on that when the NHS | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
is falling apart? -- spending money on that. | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
It is a real problem. When you look at - you are going to be | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
interviewing Tony Blair later - the point where his ratings started to | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
go in the wrong direction was when he focused his attention abroad. | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
People were saying - why are you worrying about what is happening in | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Iraq, when there are things happening here you should be | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
concentrating on. What was happening here was nothing like as | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
bad as what is happening now. People are thinking - I don't know | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
how I'm going to pay my bills, why are we spending money on that. | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
Whale ask Mr Blair. You have a story about Miliband. I'm not sure | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
which one. Is it Ed? Actually, I guess Ed Miliband is going to be | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
looking at what is in the press today and feeling quite pleased and | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
relieved because most of it is a lot of negative stuff about David | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
Cameron. Nothing much about him. But there is one tiny story which | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
I'm sure will be at the front of his mind, which is a poll that the | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
Fabian Soiety have done which points out that Labour is not doing | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
anything like as well as it needs to in view of winning Conservative | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
voters. So, all the Labour lead that Labour has enjoyed in the last | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
year or so has all come from the Lib Dem vote. And almost nothing | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
from the Tories. Disaffected Tories have gone to UKIP and come back a | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
little bit and probably going back again. So, I think it is something | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
thated Labour Party needs to be focusing on -- something that the | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
Labour Party needs to to be focusing on. How are they going to | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
win seats back from the Tories Tories think if they can get the | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
Lib Dems back out of opposition, they can suck the votes back from | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
Labour and the Tories can get in. Ironically the people who could | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
help the Tories get back in power is some lefty Lib Dem leader who | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
they badly want to replace Nick Clegg. Another article in the | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
papers, is a NHS Mid Staffs review, the fourth inquiry into it. It is | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
going to reveal the failings of the NHS in the most appalling detail. | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
There are other polls today showing that the NHS in Croydon, only one- | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
third of the people who work there would recommend their family use it. | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
20 other NHS Trusts, where fewer than half of those use it would | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
want family or friends to be treated there. It'll put this under | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
the microscope. Yes the Government can say they have put more money in | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
and there are more nurses, but is it getting better or worse? People | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
don't believe them. They don't believe the money has gone in and | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
don't trust the Conservatives to run the NHS. Doing focus groups | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
ahead of the last election, I said to people - if the Tories were to | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
get in, what is the thing you fear most, what most worries? You it was | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
always that they would destroy the NHS. The Labour Party by contrast, | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
the Labour Party brand is intimately linked in a positive way | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
with the NHS and yet I feel they're not maximising that at the moment. | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
They are not talking about it enough. Something else we'll put to | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
Tony Blair later. Deborah and Fraser, thank you very much. | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
It was decidedly nippy this morning. Is more snow on the way? Ben joins | :21:42. | :21:43. | |
Is more snow on the way? Ben joins us with the weather. | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
There could well be more snow on the way in the week ahead. It is | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
certainly going to turn colder once again. But today it is slightly | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
milder, certainly compared with yesterday. But the price we pay is | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
that there is a lot more cloud around. And a band of rain slowly | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
pushing eastwards. This rain fizzling out. So very little | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
eventually reaching the south-east. At the same time more wet weather | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
pushing into the western side of Northern Ireland and western | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
Scotland. Across the hills and mountains of western Scotland where | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
we'll have rain persistently throughout the day it'll be windy. | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
Anywhere to the east of high grounds, so the eastern side of | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
Scotland and eastern side of Northern Ireland, brightness | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
developing and the same it the east of Pennines. Here is you are a | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
first band of rain in the south- east, with just a few spots of | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
drizzle as for with the hills of the south-west and Wales. And very | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
mild. Through this evening and tonight another band of weather | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
pushing south-east, again the rain light and patchy. Behind it things | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
will turn colder and winds will whip up in parts of Scotland with | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
gales or severe gales and wintry showers. They'll continue through | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
tomorrow. We could see snow accumulating, even to lower levels. | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
Drier and brighter further south. For the week ahead it, looks cold, | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
:23:13. | :23:14. | ||
windy with further wintry showers. The former US Vice-President, Al | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
Gore, is worried about our future. His new book deals not just with | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
climate change, but with what he says are the harmful links between | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
big business, politics and the media. Al Gore's own future is | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
certainly secure. He's just sold his television company, Current TV, | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
for millions. The buyer was Al- Jazeera, funded by the oil-rich | :23:32. | :23:40. | |
state of Qatar. When I spoke to him earlier, I asked him whether, as an | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
environmentalist, he was troubled by the deal. But we started by | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
discussing his book called The Future, which suggests government | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
and TV are dysfunctional and in the pockets of wealthy companies. I put | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
it to Al Gore that he appeared to be saying politicians can't make | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
decisions and television is lying to us. Well, that's a brutal | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
contraction but I'll go with it. Politicians have trouble making the | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
right decisions in the interests of the public they represent. When | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
they have to spend so much time worrying about the opinions of | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
these large corporate donors and special interest donors, and | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
they're tempted, the politicians are, believe me, to serve their | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
interests instead of the public interest. That's not a new theme in | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
your democracy or ours, but it is much worse now than it has been in | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
the past. And television selectively presents information | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
that is paid for by large corporations and special interests. | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
But you could help change that. The only way to do that is from the | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
inside through politics. Would you run again? I think you can change | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
it from the outside as well. I think that a grass roots' movement | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
to deNelson Mandela politics be opened up in-- to demand that | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
politics be opened up and that the roll of money be diminished, is | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
really more needed now than anything else. As for my own career, | :25:15. | :25:22. | |
as I write in the book - I'm' recovering politician and the | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
chances of a relapse have been diminishing for long enough it. Has | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
increased my confidence I won't yield to that. Were you serve under | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
Hillary Clinton were she to run and win the White House in 2016? | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
think that the focus, first of all, on the Presidential election four | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
years from now, a week after we have sworn in President Obama for | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
his second term, is itself a symptom of - I'm not criticising | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
you, understand, but this is true in so much of the media, certainly | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
here in the United States, where the so-called horse race aspects of | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
the race are easy to deal with. They fit a pre-existing formula. | :26:11. | :26:17. | |
And, yet, what is missing from our democratic discourse when we obsess | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
on the horse race? Here in the US we went through an entire | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
Presidential election last year in a year that was the hottest in the | :26:25. | :26:34. | |
history of the US. 60% of the country in drought. $110 billion in | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
climate-related disaster damage. Hurricane Sandy destroying part of | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
lower Manhattan and parts of New Jersey. And not one single question | :26:45. | :26:52. | |
was asked by any of the news media - do any of the candidates for | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
President, care about the climate crisis? As an environmentalist, did | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
you feel conflicted when you sold your television station to a | :27:01. | :27:08. | |
country that's partly funded by a country which has the largest | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
carbon footprint per capita in the world? I understand that perception. | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
I don't agree with those who would criticise it on that ground. The | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
fact is that Al-Jazeera has long since established itself as a a | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
widely-respected television news- gathering network and has done an | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
outstanding job. Forgive me, though, it is not about Al-Jazeera's | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
integrity, or independence, it's about where the money comes from. | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
The money comes from oil and gas. hear that you think that is the | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
case. I understand that totely. I appreciate your point of view. I | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
don't agree with it. The point is big business, which as you say is | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
run by oil and gas, is so influential that it creates a will | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
the of the decisions. It makes a lot of the decisions and it's | :27:55. | :28:01. | |
difficult to get away from that, isn't it? Well, all of the networks | :28:01. | :28:10. | |
in the US that carry news and commentary and information, carry | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
heavy advertising from the carbon countries. No question about it. | :28:14. | :28:20. | |
Current did not and Al-Jazeera does knotted it. Has no commercials | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
whatsoever. Its climate coverage has been outstanding. I hope that | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
other networks will be encouraged by the addition of Al-Jazeera to | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
the television dial to upgrade their own climate reporting. | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
this book you remain quite optimistic for the future, but only | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
if people can work together and communicate and work for the | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
greater good. Might some people think that a little naive? Well, I | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
hope it's not naive. I think it's actually beginning to happen now. | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
As the book points out, we've gone through very large-scale changes in | :28:55. | :29:02. | |
the way we communicate, for a variety of reasons. Democracy has | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
not flourished in the age of television. But the internet | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
changes that. And once again, empowers individuals to take part | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
in a robust give-and-take that gives rise to a greater | :29:15. | :29:23. | |
appreciation for the role of reason and facts and logic. Already we see | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
individual bloggers having an impact on policy debates. We see | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
fact-checking taking place on the internet that actually does change | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
the way issues are dealt with. Television is still the dominant | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
medium. But particularly with young people, it's internet is growing by | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
leaps and bounds and I think soon will justify the optimism that | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
individuals empowered by this new communications' infrastructure will | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
be able to reclaim their birth rights as free citizens and redeem | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
the promise of representative demcascy. | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
Finally, could I -- creme crasscy. Finally, could I just ask you about | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
American politics. With President Obama starting his second term. Is | :30:10. | :30:20. | |
:30:20. | :30:25. | ||
American politics more divisive Yes, indeed. It is linked to | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
anonymous contributors, corporations, money, people suing | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
their business plans in the guise of politics, and encouraging many | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
politicians to say things and do things that would not have been | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
seen in the best interests of the public in years past. American | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
politics has fallen into a state of serious disrepair. It can be fixed, | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
but we need to recognise that our democracy has been hacked. It's a | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
computer term, meaning it has been taken over, in a sense, and is | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
being operated for purposes other than those for which it was | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
intended for the just to confirm, you got no current plans to run for | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
office, but what about the future? As I have said, the chances of a | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
relapse have been a diminishing for long enough that I'm pretty | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
confident that not going to happen. Thanks very much for being with us. | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
My pleasure. Thank you thought up we will take that as no, then, | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
shall we? Stephen Poliakoff is one of our most original film makers | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
with a body of work, stretching back almost four decades. Shooting | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
the Past, Perfect Strangers and The Lost Prince are just a few of his | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
major critical successes. Power, sense of belonging, how we | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
interpret history, what Britain stands for or stood for, are all | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
themes he's dealt with. And which are very apparent in his latest | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
drama, Dancing On The Edge. Set in the early 30s, it follows the | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
fortunes of a fictional black jazz band, who mix in high society and | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
royal circles. I'll be talking to Stephen Poliakoff and one of the | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
stars of the series, Jacqueline Bisset, in a moment. Good morning | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
and welcome to the programme. But first, here's a look at Dancing On | :32:13. | :32:23. | |
:32:23. | :32:43. | ||
Goodness knows why you have been left to do this, Stanley? Look at | :32:43. | :32:53. | |
:32:53. | :32:55. | ||
Stanley, the young a journalist says something has got to change. | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
He Pioneers the band, doesn't tea, this fictional jazz band, and there | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
they are not going down very well. That's right, yes. Stanley helps | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
them up but it's self-interest, too, and the Imperial people have to | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
become more fashionable. This is all based on truth, although the | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
story itself is fiction, so getting this jazz band to this | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
extraordinarily old-fashioned hotel seemed an incongruous thing to do | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
but it makes sense, so it's in his interests, too, making the place | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
more fashionable. When you say it's based on trick, which bits are | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
true? Two of the royals were into jazz music. The Prince of Wales, | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
Edward VII, and his much younger brother, George, the Duke of Kent, | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
they knocked around together, going to jazz bands, offending musicians, | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
and had intense friendships -- befriending musicians will for the | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
Prince of Wales played drums with Duke Ellington at a party all night. | :34:03. | :34:13. | |
:34:13. | :34:16. | ||
But did he? Yes, the drums. It was very informal. That sort of | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
crossing class and race barriers, a moment in history. The early | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
thirties, before the darkness comes up, really fascinating. That is | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
where the story comes from. Jacqueline Bisset, what tended to | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
back to the UK? This gentleman on my left and the script, an amazing | :34:35. | :34:43. | |
script. I was staggered by it and I had to read it fast, but it | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
continued to grow in interest and complexity and all the characters, | :34:49. | :34:56. | |
they are not generic characters, very individual, and have a serious | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
personality traits. Interweaving stories. Very good for the you have | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
a great character, as well. Shall we have a quick look at her? Here | :35:07. | :35:15. | |
Are you a journalist? Is it that obvious, yes. I have nothing | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
against journalists, I never talk to them. I understand. Actually, we | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
might bump into each other later today because your kindly allow and | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
the band to play on your estate. I've always wanted to meet you. In | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
case we run into each other later on, I thought I would say hello for | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
the and now you have done it at considerable length. She appears | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
quite fierce but she is a free spirit. She has got money to put | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
into this new venture. Yes, she's also seeking to have some light in | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
her life. She lost her three sons in the First World War, and has | :35:53. | :35:59. | |
been in a sad place. This young man and his music brings a lot of | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
interest and life and it tests her. Was your character based on | :36:03. | :36:12. | |
anybody? It was suggested by Baroness Rothschild, who helped | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
jazz musicians in the 1950s, so that was the inspiration. I | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
borrowed but real-life figure and went back in history to this time, | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
the 1930s, so she's inspired by something which happened. You said | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
about this five-part drama, it was the most punishing of your career. | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
Why was that? It was a captured, we shot on relocations, bouncing | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
around the country from Birmingham to Sussex to London, to create this | :36:42. | :36:50. | |
world, a huge hotel, a big house, and the backstage staff, so you | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
know, it was a punishing schedule calls that it was exhilarating to | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
work with such an extraordinary group of actors, Jacqueline, John | :37:00. | :37:10. | |
:37:10. | :37:11. | ||
Goodman, Chiwetel Ejiofor. A young rising British star, a fantastic | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
soundtrack. They really cheered me up coming on on the set. He was | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
wonderfully warm and very, very encouraging of. Slightly fierce at | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
times for the why? Because of the scheduled for that no messing about. | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
He had to do everything. He wrote and directed all of it, it's very | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
unusual to have one director do the whole thing. In the past you spoke | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
about American directors and said they don't give women the best | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
characters. European women, my point being at that wonderful, | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
brewed European actresses do many films in Europe, go to America, and | :37:53. | :38:03. | |
:38:03. | :38:03. | ||
get nothing. The directors don't understand them. And I feel that, | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
the wonderful actors this year, I am a blanking, who played Edith | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
Piaf, she did one of those action movies but they don't take from her | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
what she has also she has so much to give. So we are going to keep | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
you here? I would certainly love to work more for that she is | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
fantastical are coming back here, doing this role. The BBC, it's a | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
big thing for me. She's not on until Tuesday night, the second | :38:33. | :38:41. | |
part. She's not in the first part. Thank you very much. Lovely to see | :38:41. | :38:49. | |
both. Dancing On The Edge starts on Monday on BBC Two at 9pm. After the | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
9/11 attacks on New York, Tony Blair promised that Britain would | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
stand shoulder to shoulder with the United States in what became known | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
as the war on terror. Recent events in Algeria and Mali demonstrate | :38:57. | :39:04. | |
that the terrorist threat may have moved, but it hasn't gone away. Can | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
it be defeated militarily? And how deeply should British forces be | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
involved? Questions which the former Prime Minister has been | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
reflecting on, saying David Cameron is right to talk of a generational | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
:39:26. | :39:26. | ||
struggle. I'm joined now by Tony Blair. Good morning. When you look | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
at what's happening in Mali at the moment, do you think there is the | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
men, will, resources, for a generation struggle in North | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
Africa? First of all, I think we should acknowledge just how | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
difficult this a decision is. Sometimes in politics you come | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
across a situation where the choice is binary. You go this way or that | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
way but it's ugly and messy, and if we engage with this, not just | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
minutes Howley but over a long period of time, trying to help | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
these countries, it's very, very hard but I think personally the | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
cost of disengaging is going to be even greater. The question is, I | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
suppose, how long you are in there for and how long Britain can afford | :40:12. | :40:20. | |
to be in there for? There is a quote from your mum was. You said, | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
"It is even more clear to me that the battle has to be fought with | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
every means at our disposal and fought until it is won". That is a | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
big task because you are fighting a different type of extremism at the | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
moment. Absolutely but that's why it's difficult. If you look at the | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
cost of not engaging and doing what France and Britain are trying to do | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
in at Mali, suppose you let them being taken over by the terrorist | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
group, they took over a portion of Mali the size of Spain, a breeding | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
ground for treasure, suppose Syria disintegrates, 60,000 people have | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
died there already, with a situation the more extreme elements | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
of the opposition will lead the opposition... Do you go into Syria | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
as well? You would least up to try to shape events in the Middle East | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
and Egypt. At the present time, if you don't get political dialogue | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
going but in the different parties, to try to stabilise the economy, | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
you would have a situation where the largest country in the Middle | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
East is in a state of future at fragility, possible breakdown, and | :41:28. | :41:37. | |
then Iran. When you look at this over the time since and 9/11, we | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
always want, in the West, to go in and go out, and think there is a | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
clean result. It's not going to happen like that. It's going to be | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
long and difficult and messy. If you don't intervene, and you just | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
let it happen, it's also going to be a long and difficult and messy | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
and possibly a lot worse, so it's a very difficult decision. I found | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
these decisions are immensely difficult when I was in government | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
and I don't envy David Cameron having to take the decision now, | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
but I think he's right, you have got to take a view that the long- | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
term view and be prepared to engage. When you say long term, decades? | :42:20. | :42:29. | |
don't know. Certainly talking about a generation. If you look at this | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
ideology, it's based on a perversion of religion in the end | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
because that's what makes these countries difficult. I intervened | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
in Kosovo, we went in and came out with a victory. And Sierra Leone, | :42:40. | :42:47. | |
we came up with a victory. Afghanistan? Still there. Very, | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
very difference. The difference is, in those countries, you had a | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
combination of states which had failed to become a rogue states, if | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
you like, plus an element of religion and religious extremism, | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
and so I think the better way to look at it is like the fight the | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
West had over revolutionary communism. It will happen in many | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
different theatres, in many different ways, but there's no | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
option to confronted, and to try to defeated. David Cameron has been | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
quite clear and said, at the moment, in a Mali, the role is a training | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
role for the British forces. Do you think it needs to be, in other | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
places as well, where pockets of extremism is, troops on the ground | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
has to be there? I'm not going to second-guess him on that. There | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
will be different roles in different parts of the world. | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
Sometimes you will use special forces. Sierra Leone, going, Davide, | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
come back out again. Mali is more complicated. In a Sierra Leone, | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
there was a local group that was trying to take over and topple a | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
democratic government but they had no outside connections. | :44:00. | :44:08. | |
Unfortunately, this ideology based on a perversion of the proper face | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
of Islam, it is there in a Mali but has connections all over north up | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
the cup. They are trying to destabilise the northern part of | :44:18. | :44:25. | |
sub-Saharan Africa, so you are the same ideology rising for the these | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
people in Mali are disappearing into the hills. Are they going to | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
turn up somewhere else? A lot of people suggest they came from Libya, | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
for the guns and the men went into Mali and now they're going | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
somewhere else, and we will have to keypad putting fires everywhere in | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
the world. How do we have the resources for that? In that case, | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
it's too difficult, I'm getting out of there? I totally understand that. | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
If you have been through a long drawn-out process in Afghanistan, | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
where we are still struggling, I totally understand why people would | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
say let's get out. Leave them to sort out their own problems, but my | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
fear is that, because this is being driven, by an ideology with a very, | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
very strong desire to push out from the borders of wherever they are, | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
if we do disengage, we will get a different set of problems, further | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
down the line more serious, so that's the choice. You are right, | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
if you drive these people into the hills, when you go, they come back, | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
so how do then stay there for the long term? I studied as a lot since | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
I left office, I work in 20 countries around the world in one | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
way or another, and I have learned two things which are important. We | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
have got to put effort into building capacity in the States | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
which could fail to govern themselves sensibly and that can be | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
done in a different way but it's really, really important, and the | :46:00. | :46:06. | |
second thing is, we have to do with religious extremism and deal with | :46:06. | :46:12. | |
it in these places as religion. By trying to create a sense of | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
circumstances for example in how children are educated in these | :46:15. | :46:25. | |
:46:25. | :46:31. | ||
countries, to lead them to an open- You talk about an Islamist ideology. | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
There is no one ideology. It is not alquidia you are fighting in | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is a new kind of threat? It is linked by | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
a common thread. You are right in a sense. I'm not suggesting there is | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
a command and Control Centre with a designated leader. That's | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
absolutely true but if you look over the Middle East and North | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
Africa and through into Central Asia, now. There is an identifyable | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
ideology, that's based on a perversion of religion. It may have | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
its many different off-shoots but they have that in common. So, | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
trying to deal with that element of it and being express about it. You | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
know, saying - let's get that out there on the table and see how we | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
deal with it, I think is really important. Here is good news in all | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
of the bad news. Every where I go, no matter how difficult the | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
situation of the country, in truth, the majority of the people in those | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
countries want the same things as we want. They want to be able to | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
elect their government. They want religion in its right place. They | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
want a better rule of law. They want it raise children with a | :47:38. | :47:44. | |
chance of prosperity. They want to know if they work and play by the | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
rules they can get somewhere. The majority of people, even in the | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
countries where the worst trouble, is want something better. Rather | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
than disengage, we have to help them get there. So, wherever you | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
see this flame of militant Islam, you are suggesting Britain should | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
get involved militarily in some form or another? I'm not suggesting | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
it has to be militarily it. Could be very different ways. Where | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
should it be militarily? It depends on the nature of the threat. For | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
example in Mali. Think France is right and it is a courageous | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
decision of President Hollande to go if n there and intrin right to | :48:18. | :48:26. | |
give support. There would be -- there and Britain is right to give | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
support. Well 60,000 people have been killed there in two years. | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Should Britain intervene there in Syria? It is not just a question of | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
Britain, it is for the West. The question is how. It is very hard. | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
You know, if you arm the opposition, who are you arming? I have been | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
suggesting for a long time you try to create safe havens for the - you | :48:48. | :48:56. | |
know for the Syrian opposition to operate from. But I do think Al- | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
Sadr - Assad has to know he can not carry on what he is doing which is | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
businessically because the Syrian Army won't engage with the rebel | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
forces in hand-to-hand gt, they are firing scud missiles and heavy | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
artillery into entire villages and wiping them out. The devastation is | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
extraordinary. My anxiety about Syria, although some people think | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
if you look at Syria, OK it's a terrible tragedy, humanitarian | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
tragedy, but does it have any regional consequences? Well, I | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
would say it does. If that spills out from Syria. What does Britain | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
do? I think we have not just Britain, but what the West has to | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
do is see how it can bring this to an end now. Now, that's partly | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
through trying to get Russia into a different position. I know efforts | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
are happening to that end. I also think you have got to... Three UN | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
resolutions they have not backed. We have to be careful about putting | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
all our eggs in that basket. But there are certain things we can do | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
to help strengthen the opposition and make it clear to Assad in the | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
end he is not going to win this and he is not going to have a stalemate. | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
It will West End his defeat and his going. The question is: is he gsh | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
it will end in his defeat. Otherwise the risk is, and you see | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
this from other countries that have gone through this process of | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
revolution, you end up with a situation which the state then | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
starts to collapse. You mentioned yourself the difficulties of | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
getting a UN resolution with Russia already having rejected it a few | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
times. Is the only answer to go in? No, I don't think you are ever | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
going to go in in the sense of British troops on the ground. The | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
question is, what more can you do to help the opposition? There are | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
options there which I thinks is important to look at. Can I turn to | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
Europe, which is a battle that David Cameron is having. At the | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
moment he wants to reform Britain's relationship with Europe and then | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
have a in-out referendum. You said, when you heard his speech, 90% | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
resonated with you and you agreed with 90% of it. What about the in- | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
out referendum, wouldn't that be a way of solving things once and for | :51:10. | :51:18. | |
all, sn drawing a line under it. is -- draw and drawing a line under | :51:18. | :51:25. | |
it it. If the case is - should Europe reform? That's a case made | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
by many Prime Ministers, Margaret Thatcher, Gordon Brown, John Major. | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
And step by step there have been significant reforms in Europe as a | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
result of that. So where it is about - should Europe reform, I'm | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
100% with him actually. It is where you say - but if it doesn't, then | :51:42. | :51:50. | |
we want out. That, you know that is to put the "out" question on the | :51:50. | :51:56. | |
ballot paper. First of all it creates we are in an uncertain | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
situation. Everywhere I go, people say - is Britain really going to | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
get out of Europe snuck not answer that conclusively. Secondly, the | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
overwhelming likelihood of what will happen is he will try to get | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
certain changes in Europe. He may get some. He will only get them by | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
saying there is going to be a referendum if you do it, surely. | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
I'm not sure about that. Remember, other countries in Europe also have | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
their politics. If you are talking about reforming yuefrplt you are | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
talking about the interests of 27 - - reforming Europe. If you are | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
saying Britain's relationship with Europe, it is one verses 26. You | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
better make sure they are lined up behind that. If they are not and | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
any one say no. I cannot really believe that David Cameron thinks | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
it is sensible to get out of Europe, even if he doesn't achieve all that | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
of agenda. You see what I mean? It depends if he gets re-elected but | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
you are in a situation where four or five years down the line, until | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
then there is uncertainty and at that point, who knows what might | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
happen and if Britain did vote for out, I think it would be a huge | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
problem for our country. The bring to realise about Europe is the | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
rational is not about peace. That was my father's generation. The | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
rational for Europe today is power. Inal world of China with 1.3 | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
billion people and India with over a billion and increasingly because | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
of mobile capital and technology, you know, the weight of your | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
country's economy is linked to your population. So in time to come, | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
Britain, 60 million people a small island nation, if we want it | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
exercise weight and influence and power in the world, why would we | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
separate ourselves from the biggest political union and largest | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
supermarket on our doorstep. there was a referendum you would | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
stand alongside David Cameron, Ed Miliband and everyone else | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
campaigning to stay? Sure, if they are campaigning to stay. In if it | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
got to, that you would be doing that. But I think the tricky | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
question is this: look I spent ten years going through European | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
negotiation. You wanted an in-out referendum at one stage on the EU | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
constitution. Not in-out. "I thought we might turn it into a | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
referendum which is effectively in or out. I fancied mounting a big | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
argument on the issue I felt strongly Balthough a tough | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
challenge, I relished the fight." That would have been a referendum | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
saying - do you agree with the new European constitution or not? It | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
would not have been a referendum saying - if you don't, we should | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
leave. The fact of the matter if we had ended up - look you had to have | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
a referendum because Europe proposed a new constitution. I was | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
reluctant to d it, but in the end I accepted we had to have it. What we | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
are doing in this instance - because this would be perfectly | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
sensible if David Cameron said - I have agreed a certain amount of | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
changes and now I want to put those changes to a referendum. That's one | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
thing. It's the "out" bit of it. Once you put that on the ballot | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
paper, you are then in a situation where, who knows what the | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
circumstances will be. The problem with referendums, which is why you | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
should only use them when it is absolutely res, I then general | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
degall once said, it is about as much about who asked the que, as | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
the question. Deborah math inson has been involved in public opinion | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
for years. She said looking at Labour, the Conservatives seem to | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
have a clear message whether it is Europe or reform. But when it comes | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
to Labour, the public are not quite clear what it stands for. Are you? | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
I'm quite clear. What is it? stands for a society to combine | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
economic prosperity with social justice. But you had New Labour and | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
Ed Miliband sort of sidelined that in his conference speech and said - | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
now we are One Nation. What does that men? I think what it means is, | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
in circumstances where the country has very difficult challenges, it's | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
important that it handles them as one and that you don't end up | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
simply governing for a small group of people at the stop. -- top. I | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
understand the Labour Party message. By the way, what Ed is trying to do | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
is tougher than what I had to do. When I became Labour leader, we | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
lost four elections. This is attempting to bounce back and win | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
after a heavy defeat. You had a clear strategy about what Labour | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
was and what it needed to do to win. Sure. Before you came in in '97. | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
What is Ed Miliband's clear vision? What is the message? The one you | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
have given - if we face difficult and testing times, we should face | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
them together. The burden should be shared equally and we have to | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
create an economy for the future in which opportunity is given to the | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
many and not the few. I don't think it is a problem with the vision, | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
actually. I think what there will be, is a big challenge when it | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
comes to - how do you translate that into practical policy. Sn | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
that's -- that's for later in this year when the Labour will unveil | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
its policies. This is a situation where the economy is very tough, | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
where we are going to face a situation, whoever is in Government, | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
they are going to be very constrained. That's why it will be | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
important for the Labour Party to show it is reformers, they are | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
reformers and they are able to reform public services, welfare, | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
the state and so on, as well as simply protect people who are | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
vulnerable. So a clear policy has to emerge by the end of this year. | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
That's what you seem to be saying, if they are going to wint election? | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
They are an opposition party. I don't favour hugely detailed policy | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
but the orientation will be clear. Do you advise Ed Miliband, does he | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
talk to you? I talk to him. I don't presume to advise him or anyone | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
else. You talk to David Cameron, officially, unofficially, both? | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
talk to him from time to time as well. Look, when you have gone | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
through this all this and sat in the seat, both adds Leader of the | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
Opposition and Prime Minister, you know how damned difficult both jobs | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
are. I come to a sense of - believe it or not humility about this - I | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
know it is really difficult. The last thing I want to do with either | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
individual, by the way, is end up, you know, being one of those sort | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
of pains in the neck that sit in the back seat saying - I would have | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
done this and that. On something like Europe, I will speak out but | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
even then I try to do it respectively. I don't - for Ed and | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
for David Cameron, if they ever want help or advice I would try to | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
give it in what I thought was the best interest of the country. | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
much more we could get through. That's all we have time for. Thank | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
you very much, Tony Blair. That is all we have time for today. Thanks | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
to all my guests this morning. Next Sunday James Landale will be here, | :58:47. | :58:53. |