03/02/2013 The Andrew Marr Show


03/02/2013

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Good morning. The British aristocracy still has an influence

:00:34.:00:40.

abroad, it seems. When departing American Secretary of State Hillary

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Clinton had her private farewell dinner this week, the cast of her

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favourite show, which is actually Downton Abbey, recorded a personal

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goodbye to her. Aristocracy and jazz coming up in our programme

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this morning. Together with politics, both American and British.

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Here to look through today's papers, the editor of The Spectator

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magazine, Fraser Nelson. And an expert on public opinion, the

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former pollster Deborah Mattinson. First, a Prime Minister with a

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fight on his hands over Europe. Unstable and brutally oppressive

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regimes in the Arab world. And the dilemma of intervention in African

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conflicts. Not just David Cameron, but Tony Blair. It's all familiar

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territory to a man who spent a decade in Number 10 and who was

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challenged on similar fronts to those facing today's occupant. This

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morning we'll be asking Tony Blair how would he tackle the new,

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emerging terrorist threat? What he makes of the promised referendum on

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Europe? And what the Labour party needs to do now if it's to reclaim

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the keys to Downing Street. I'll also be talking to a man who once

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came within a whisker or perhaps "a hanging chad" of becoming President

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of the United States. Former Vice President Al Gore, one of the

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world's foremost voices on the impact of climate change. He's been

:01:57.:02:00.

telling me why he remains optimistic about the future despite

:02:00.:02:05.

his gloomy analysis of US politics and big business. And talking about

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the deal that's made him a multi- millionaire. Also this morning, a

:02:09.:02:19.
:02:19.:02:23.

new BBC Drama, Dancing On The Edge, # Are happy to see you...

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A slick and sexy jazz age production by one of our greatest

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television dramatists. The writer and director Stephen Poliakoff is

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here with one of the programme's stars, Jacqueline Bisset. Before

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all that, the latest news from Naga Good morning. The leaders of

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Afghanistan and Pakistan are in Britain for two days of talks with

:02:48.:02:51.

David Cameron as part of efforts to prevent a Taliban resurgence when

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British troops leave the region. The Prime Minister will dine with

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Hamid Karzai and Asif Ali Zardari at Chequers this evening, before a

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formal meeting tomorrow which will also involve senior security

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officials from all three countries. The discussions are part of a

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process initiated by Mr Cameron last year. A spokeswoman said a

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very clear message was being sent to the Taliban that now was the

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time for everyone to participate in a peaceful political process in

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Afghanistan. There are new claims by some nurses that staffing levels

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in parts of the NHS are dangerously low. A survey of nearly 600 nurses

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by Nursing Times found three quarters of them had witnessed what

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they considered to be poor care in their ward or unit in the last year.

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Last month, David Cameron announced his intention to improve nursing

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standards. He said he wanted nurses to carry out Ali walked round to

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check on patients. Now a survey by Nursing Times magazine has raised

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questions about staffing levels in NHS hospitals. Around 600 nurses

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took part and over half described their unit as sometimes always

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dangerously understaffed. About three-quarters said they had

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witnessed what they considered to be poor care in the award over the

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past year. And of those, around one-third said it happened

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regularly. It calls into question the standard of care offered to

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patients. Nurses are doing bedside observations, looking at the

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patience, and making sure the patient experienced are poles

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privacy and dignity which are very important to patients. Without

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nurses being properly resourced, those things are going to suffer.

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The survey comes as the public inquiry into the failings at the

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Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust prepares to publish its report this

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week. A woman from East London who was

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disfigured when acid was throw in her face has spoken about the

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assault in the hope it will help police catch her attacker. 20-year-

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old Naomi Oni says she was attacked by a woman wearing a hijab. No

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arrests have been made but police say inquires are continuing. Her

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life ahead affair, before she suffered an acid attack, just

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minutes from her home. This was really, really painful. Her life

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changed in an instant. I just felt a splash. I just felt something

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literally thrown at me, a splash. And I ran home, I ran up down at my

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road, screaming hysterically, shouting on the phone to my

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boyfriend to call 999. I got to my door and I shouted, acid, acid,

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acid. The attack happened after midnight on 30th December. She had

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been working at the West Hill shopping centre in Stratford. She

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took the eight-mile journey home getting off the bus at the Lodge

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Avenue in Dagenham. She says she has no idea who attacked her and

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each day asks herself why me? Eight more people have been arrested by

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police investigating the murder of a teenager in London a week ago.

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16-year-old Hani Abou El Kheir was found stabbed near his home in

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Pimlico. Police believe up to ten people were involved in the attack.

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A 20-year-old man arrested on suspicion of murder on Thursday has

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since been bailed. That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the

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headlines just before 10.00am. Back Thanks, Naga. Now, on the front

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pages today. Starting with the Telegraph, a picture of the Prince

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of Wales and Camilla. He spoke of overwhelming challenges facing

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committees surviving in the economic downturn. The main story

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is about the vote taking place about gay marriage on Tuesday. The

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Telegraph suggests down and she expects 120 of David Cameron's MPs

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will vote in favour of legalising homosexual unions. Leaving around

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180 Conservative members likely to abstain or vote against. The Sunday

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Times has a picture of Chris Robshaw, the England rugby captain,

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watched by Princess and lifting the Calcutta Cup after they overpowered

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Scotland 38-18. The main story about the head of Britain's biggest

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arms manufacturer, which at the Sunday Times says allegedly

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acquired penthouses from the Saudi Arabian royals. The Observer have a

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picture of Mo Farah and his wife and daughter. She has been speaking

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out about school funding and school sports funding, and is opposed to

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school sport cuts. The main story about Michael Gove, plunged last

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night into what the Observer called a potentially toxic row over

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allegations that members of the department had used to Twitter to

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launch highly personal attacks on journalists and political opponents.

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The Independent have a story about the rail line which was announced,

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the cost to Britain's wildlife, they ask its progress? The Sunday

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Mirror has an interview with Paul Gascoigne, who says he can't live

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without a drink. The Sunday Express is talking about carbon monoxide

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monitors in aeroplanes, talking to a Canadian expert. The Sun

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newspaper reports one direction's Harry has been having a bit of fun.

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Those are your main stories this morning. A I'm going to start with

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the big political story of the week. The gay marriage vote. It's all a

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bit of a nightmare for David Cameron. What is going to the out

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come here? My thought really is what the public think of this? Here

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is the dilemma. Two-thirds of the public support gay marriage, but

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the third that don't are the ones that concern David Cameron because

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a 20% of Tory voters say they would consider not voting Tory if the

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Tory vote sport gay marriage. This gives him a real problem. What is

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he going to do because will those people go off to UKIP? They are not

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about Europe, but it's all about the right-wing of the Tory party

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and what's going to happen there and I think it's very problematic.

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What do you think will happen on Tuesday? Well, a lot of their

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members are saying, we are not going to turn up and campaign for

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you because you are attacked and are so much, like the Prime

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Minister doesn't like Conservative Members any more. The funny thing

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is, so will punish its bill was a far bigger deal than gay marriage,

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but it was done a lot more deftly without any of this, saying we are

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right and you are wrong, and that's what constituents don't like. It's

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not so much the idea of civil partnerships, we're talking about

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the word here, calling at marriage. Legally, it's exactly the same, and

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it's making a lot of them think that maybe it's time for a new

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leader. The Sunday Times has got a wonderful picture today of the

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various Tories lining up behind David Cameron with pickaxes in

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their hands waiting for his return from Africa. When you read it,

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there's lots of grumbling, nothing which resembles an organised plot.

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Who would stand against him? Before the election, hardly anybody, I

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think, but if you look at the bookmaker's odds, the odds are that

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Ed Miliband will be the next Prime Minister and the Tories will face

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leadership elections within two and a bit years. They are already

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thinking, who will be in the election? Be careful what you wish

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for because David Cameron consistently performs ahead of the

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party. Is there anybody who would be better? Theresa May? She was

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:11:34.:11:36.

mentioned yesterday. Are there any names in the frame? So many. I

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think he is a front man. Look at the new intake, the Treasury

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minister would be brilliant, the schools minister, so much a new

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talent, who will be ripe in about 2020. Boris is the only one have

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also been a focus groups, if you ask people about the Tory party,

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they go into raptures about Boris. Those small details won't matter.

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He is the bookies favour to the For the what else have you got?

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Following on a directly from what Fraser was saying, who are the real

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Tory modernisers? I just noticed flipping back here, at the back of

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that, at the bottom here, in the Sunday Times leader peace, an

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apology, a tiny little apology for the cartoon which caused so much

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trouble being very tactlessly published on a Holocaust memorial

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day last week. The thing which struck me was that I had missed the

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first time around, and it's one of the things Lord Leveson has said,

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these apologies are tiny compared to the trouble caused. He wasn't

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talking about cartoons, though. was taught me that things he didn't

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like, inaccurate stories, using it foul up methods to expose the

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private lives of people but we are in the era of press penitence,...

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This is not very penitent, I would say. How many apologies has Rupert

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Murdoch personally apologised for? Apologies don't get much bigger

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than News Corp saying, sorry, this was a terrible mistake. Gerald

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Scarfe, the offending cartoonist, has done a cartoon of a big cat

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today. Michael Gove, on the front pages, suggesting there are some

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nefarious Twitter thing it going on at where the education department

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is basically a annoying its journalists to say nasty things

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about them. It's fascinating, the ratio of between Twitter and the

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printed press. What happened here, this tour to account from a

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journalist, there was a splash on the newspaper spread, an editorial,

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and if unit at the offending words here, I don't know, 120 words in

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total, about 2000 words Britain... An anonymous account, though?

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it's pretty much anonymous, Twitter. The parties are thinking, we can

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enter the debate with Twitter. We are being followed by a few 1,000

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people. It's interesting to see that the press are giving Twitter

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the status which I suppose it has, although it's not entirely clear

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what the main offence was. It's described as an investigation. I'm

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not quite sure what they found. There is an eagerness had to link

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this to Damian McBride and past bad behaviour in politics, and I think

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there is a really big story here. Certainly one of the public gets,

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which is that the disenchantment with politics generally, and I

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think that's what the real story is here. I don't know actually whether

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it's fair in the case of Michael Gove, it's not Clare, but talking

:15:16.:15:26.
:15:26.:15:33.

$:/STARTFEED. What it means, is the reputation of politicians sinks

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lower and lower. I think we could be heading to record small turnout

:15:39.:15:48.
:15:49.:15:50.

at the next election because people are so fed up Berkcw has picked up

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on this. He says "shot shouting, behave

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better in the House." It clearly drives the Speaker mad. Quite

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rightly. I think that unless MPs start to behave a bit better people

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will... How many European Parliament debates can you

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remember? How many Scottish Parliament debates? It is the

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rowdyness that makes them. If you think of the top three Commons'

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moments. They will be moments of huge noise and drama in the House.

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I think that's what makes our Parliament worth... You think that

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because you are the Westminster village. The public do not think

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that. I have a more positive story which I found about behaviour of

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MPs. This is a Tory, who is a little bit of a hero. He is one of

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the backbench MPs who makes a difference. I ran a citizens jury,

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curiously in Harlow, his constituency. I asked people what

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politicians should do to improve their behaviour. They pointed out

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nobody learns to be an MP, and don't get proper training. Why

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don't they have apprenticeships? He is having an apprentice. How would

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that work?, I gather that this young man is going to shadow him

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and watch him and train... He will be running the Tory Party by the

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end. Here he is. You heard it here first. The end of Punch and Judy

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politics. Maybe. If he is trained well. What story do you have?

:17:16.:17:20.

this is a story in a few papers about how the Government is

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planning cuts. It wants to exspanned the SAS because the

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special forces are good -- expand. The Prime Minister wished he could

:17:29.:17:34.

have used them in the Algerian hostage crisis. But the MoD is

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axing 600 supportive posts for the SAS which brings into question

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right now the big issue behind Cameron's new foreign policy. He is

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going out to Africa saying he wants to enter a generational struggle,

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in his words, to shut down the ungoverned space about the size of

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France. And the military is smaller than it was during the Labour years.

:17:57.:18:02.

The Observer has a good cartoon today, actually, where they show

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the great elephant of Trident replacement, a huge multi-billion

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pound project, just stamping past the mouse of Al-Qaeda this goes to

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show the difficult decisions that lie ahead. If you want a problem

:18:16.:18:20.

that can sort the problems over there, you have to pay for it. And

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can you afford Trident at the same time? And if you do pay for it, the

:18:24.:18:28.

public are going to say - why are you spend mung on that when the NHS

:18:28.:18:31.

is falling apart? -- spending money on that.

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It is a real problem. When you look at - you are going to be

:18:34.:18:38.

interviewing Tony Blair later - the point where his ratings started to

:18:38.:18:42.

go in the wrong direction was when he focused his attention abroad.

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People were saying - why are you worrying about what is happening in

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Iraq, when there are things happening here you should be

:18:50.:18:53.

concentrating on. What was happening here was nothing like as

:18:53.:18:57.

bad as what is happening now. People are thinking - I don't know

:18:57.:19:01.

how I'm going to pay my bills, why are we spending money on that.

:19:01.:19:08.

Whale ask Mr Blair. You have a story about Miliband. I'm not sure

:19:08.:19:11.

which one. Is it Ed? Actually, I guess Ed Miliband is going to be

:19:11.:19:15.

looking at what is in the press today and feeling quite pleased and

:19:15.:19:18.

relieved because most of it is a lot of negative stuff about David

:19:18.:19:23.

Cameron. Nothing much about him. But there is one tiny story which

:19:23.:19:28.

I'm sure will be at the front of his mind, which is a poll that the

:19:28.:19:31.

Fabian Soiety have done which points out that Labour is not doing

:19:31.:19:38.

anything like as well as it needs to in view of winning Conservative

:19:38.:19:42.

voters. So, all the Labour lead that Labour has enjoyed in the last

:19:42.:19:48.

year or so has all come from the Lib Dem vote. And almost nothing

:19:48.:19:52.

from the Tories. Disaffected Tories have gone to UKIP and come back a

:19:52.:19:55.

little bit and probably going back again. So, I think it is something

:19:55.:20:01.

thated Labour Party needs to be focusing on -- something that the

:20:01.:20:04.

Labour Party needs to to be focusing on. How are they going to

:20:04.:20:09.

win seats back from the Tories Tories think if they can get the

:20:10.:20:14.

Lib Dems back out of opposition, they can suck the votes back from

:20:14.:20:19.

Labour and the Tories can get in. Ironically the people who could

:20:19.:20:24.

help the Tories get back in power is some lefty Lib Dem leader who

:20:24.:20:30.

they badly want to replace Nick Clegg. Another article in the

:20:30.:20:36.

papers, is a NHS Mid Staffs review, the fourth inquiry into it. It is

:20:36.:20:40.

going to reveal the failings of the NHS in the most appalling detail.

:20:40.:20:44.

There are other polls today showing that the NHS in Croydon, only one-

:20:44.:20:49.

third of the people who work there would recommend their family use it.

:20:49.:20:53.

20 other NHS Trusts, where fewer than half of those use it would

:20:54.:20:57.

want family or friends to be treated there. It'll put this under

:20:57.:21:00.

the microscope. Yes the Government can say they have put more money in

:21:00.:21:03.

and there are more nurses, but is it getting better or worse? People

:21:03.:21:07.

don't believe them. They don't believe the money has gone in and

:21:07.:21:10.

don't trust the Conservatives to run the NHS. Doing focus groups

:21:10.:21:13.

ahead of the last election, I said to people - if the Tories were to

:21:13.:21:17.

get in, what is the thing you fear most, what most worries? You it was

:21:17.:21:22.

always that they would destroy the NHS. The Labour Party by contrast,

:21:22.:21:25.

the Labour Party brand is intimately linked in a positive way

:21:25.:21:29.

with the NHS and yet I feel they're not maximising that at the moment.

:21:29.:21:32.

They are not talking about it enough. Something else we'll put to

:21:32.:21:37.

Tony Blair later. Deborah and Fraser, thank you very much.

:21:37.:21:42.

It was decidedly nippy this morning. Is more snow on the way? Ben joins

:21:42.:21:43.

Is more snow on the way? Ben joins us with the weather.

:21:43.:21:47.

There could well be more snow on the way in the week ahead. It is

:21:47.:21:52.

certainly going to turn colder once again. But today it is slightly

:21:53.:21:55.

milder, certainly compared with yesterday. But the price we pay is

:21:55.:22:00.

that there is a lot more cloud around. And a band of rain slowly

:22:00.:22:04.

pushing eastwards. This rain fizzling out. So very little

:22:04.:22:07.

eventually reaching the south-east. At the same time more wet weather

:22:07.:22:10.

pushing into the western side of Northern Ireland and western

:22:10.:22:14.

Scotland. Across the hills and mountains of western Scotland where

:22:14.:22:17.

we'll have rain persistently throughout the day it'll be windy.

:22:17.:22:21.

Anywhere to the east of high grounds, so the eastern side of

:22:21.:22:24.

Scotland and eastern side of Northern Ireland, brightness

:22:24.:22:29.

developing and the same it the east of Pennines. Here is you are a

:22:29.:22:33.

first band of rain in the south- east, with just a few spots of

:22:33.:22:37.

drizzle as for with the hills of the south-west and Wales. And very

:22:37.:22:42.

mild. Through this evening and tonight another band of weather

:22:42.:22:46.

pushing south-east, again the rain light and patchy. Behind it things

:22:46.:22:51.

will turn colder and winds will whip up in parts of Scotland with

:22:51.:22:54.

gales or severe gales and wintry showers. They'll continue through

:22:54.:22:57.

tomorrow. We could see snow accumulating, even to lower levels.

:22:58.:23:03.

Drier and brighter further south. For the week ahead it, looks cold,

:23:03.:23:13.
:23:13.:23:14.

windy with further wintry showers. The former US Vice-President, Al

:23:14.:23:18.

Gore, is worried about our future. His new book deals not just with

:23:18.:23:21.

climate change, but with what he says are the harmful links between

:23:21.:23:24.

big business, politics and the media. Al Gore's own future is

:23:24.:23:29.

certainly secure. He's just sold his television company, Current TV,

:23:29.:23:32.

for millions. The buyer was Al- Jazeera, funded by the oil-rich

:23:32.:23:40.

state of Qatar. When I spoke to him earlier, I asked him whether, as an

:23:40.:23:43.

environmentalist, he was troubled by the deal. But we started by

:23:43.:23:45.

discussing his book called The Future, which suggests government

:23:45.:23:48.

and TV are dysfunctional and in the pockets of wealthy companies. I put

:23:48.:23:51.

it to Al Gore that he appeared to be saying politicians can't make

:23:51.:23:55.

decisions and television is lying to us. Well, that's a brutal

:23:55.:24:02.

contraction but I'll go with it. Politicians have trouble making the

:24:02.:24:07.

right decisions in the interests of the public they represent. When

:24:07.:24:12.

they have to spend so much time worrying about the opinions of

:24:12.:24:17.

these large corporate donors and special interest donors, and

:24:17.:24:21.

they're tempted, the politicians are, believe me, to serve their

:24:21.:24:28.

interests instead of the public interest. That's not a new theme in

:24:28.:24:33.

your democracy or ours, but it is much worse now than it has been in

:24:34.:24:41.

the past. And television selectively presents information

:24:41.:24:45.

that is paid for by large corporations and special interests.

:24:45.:24:49.

But you could help change that. The only way to do that is from the

:24:49.:24:53.

inside through politics. Would you run again? I think you can change

:24:53.:25:00.

it from the outside as well. I think that a grass roots' movement

:25:00.:25:06.

to deNelson Mandela politics be opened up in-- to demand that

:25:06.:25:11.

politics be opened up and that the roll of money be diminished, is

:25:11.:25:14.

really more needed now than anything else. As for my own career,

:25:15.:25:22.

as I write in the book - I'm' recovering politician and the

:25:22.:25:28.

chances of a relapse have been diminishing for long enough it. Has

:25:28.:25:33.

increased my confidence I won't yield to that. Were you serve under

:25:33.:25:37.

Hillary Clinton were she to run and win the White House in 2016?

:25:37.:25:42.

think that the focus, first of all, on the Presidential election four

:25:42.:25:48.

years from now, a week after we have sworn in President Obama for

:25:48.:25:55.

his second term, is itself a symptom of - I'm not criticising

:25:55.:25:59.

you, understand, but this is true in so much of the media, certainly

:25:59.:26:04.

here in the United States, where the so-called horse race aspects of

:26:04.:26:11.

the race are easy to deal with. They fit a pre-existing formula.

:26:11.:26:17.

And, yet, what is missing from our democratic discourse when we obsess

:26:17.:26:22.

on the horse race? Here in the US we went through an entire

:26:22.:26:25.

Presidential election last year in a year that was the hottest in the

:26:25.:26:34.

history of the US. 60% of the country in drought. $110 billion in

:26:34.:26:40.

climate-related disaster damage. Hurricane Sandy destroying part of

:26:40.:26:44.

lower Manhattan and parts of New Jersey. And not one single question

:26:45.:26:52.

was asked by any of the news media - do any of the candidates for

:26:52.:26:56.

President, care about the climate crisis? As an environmentalist, did

:26:56.:27:01.

you feel conflicted when you sold your television station to a

:27:01.:27:08.

country that's partly funded by a country which has the largest

:27:08.:27:11.

carbon footprint per capita in the world? I understand that perception.

:27:11.:27:16.

I don't agree with those who would criticise it on that ground. The

:27:16.:27:22.

fact is that Al-Jazeera has long since established itself as a a

:27:22.:27:27.

widely-respected television news- gathering network and has done an

:27:27.:27:31.

outstanding job. Forgive me, though, it is not about Al-Jazeera's

:27:31.:27:35.

integrity, or independence, it's about where the money comes from.

:27:35.:27:40.

The money comes from oil and gas. hear that you think that is the

:27:40.:27:44.

case. I understand that totely. I appreciate your point of view. I

:27:44.:27:47.

don't agree with it. The point is big business, which as you say is

:27:48.:27:52.

run by oil and gas, is so influential that it creates a will

:27:52.:27:55.

the of the decisions. It makes a lot of the decisions and it's

:27:55.:28:01.

difficult to get away from that, isn't it? Well, all of the networks

:28:01.:28:10.

in the US that carry news and commentary and information, carry

:28:10.:28:14.

heavy advertising from the carbon countries. No question about it.

:28:14.:28:20.

Current did not and Al-Jazeera does knotted it. Has no commercials

:28:20.:28:24.

whatsoever. Its climate coverage has been outstanding. I hope that

:28:24.:28:28.

other networks will be encouraged by the addition of Al-Jazeera to

:28:28.:28:33.

the television dial to upgrade their own climate reporting.

:28:33.:28:36.

this book you remain quite optimistic for the future, but only

:28:36.:28:39.

if people can work together and communicate and work for the

:28:39.:28:45.

greater good. Might some people think that a little naive? Well, I

:28:45.:28:50.

hope it's not naive. I think it's actually beginning to happen now.

:28:50.:28:55.

As the book points out, we've gone through very large-scale changes in

:28:55.:29:02.

the way we communicate, for a variety of reasons. Democracy has

:29:02.:29:06.

not flourished in the age of television. But the internet

:29:06.:29:10.

changes that. And once again, empowers individuals to take part

:29:10.:29:15.

in a robust give-and-take that gives rise to a greater

:29:15.:29:23.

appreciation for the role of reason and facts and logic. Already we see

:29:23.:29:28.

individual bloggers having an impact on policy debates. We see

:29:28.:29:32.

fact-checking taking place on the internet that actually does change

:29:32.:29:39.

the way issues are dealt with. Television is still the dominant

:29:39.:29:44.

medium. But particularly with young people, it's internet is growing by

:29:44.:29:49.

leaps and bounds and I think soon will justify the optimism that

:29:49.:29:53.

individuals empowered by this new communications' infrastructure will

:29:53.:29:58.

be able to reclaim their birth rights as free citizens and redeem

:29:58.:30:01.

the promise of representative demcascy.

:30:01.:30:06.

Finally, could I -- creme crasscy. Finally, could I just ask you about

:30:06.:30:10.

American politics. With President Obama starting his second term. Is

:30:10.:30:20.
:30:20.:30:25.

American politics more divisive Yes, indeed. It is linked to

:30:25.:30:30.

anonymous contributors, corporations, money, people suing

:30:30.:30:37.

their business plans in the guise of politics, and encouraging many

:30:37.:30:41.

politicians to say things and do things that would not have been

:30:41.:30:45.

seen in the best interests of the public in years past. American

:30:45.:30:51.

politics has fallen into a state of serious disrepair. It can be fixed,

:30:51.:30:58.

but we need to recognise that our democracy has been hacked. It's a

:30:58.:31:03.

computer term, meaning it has been taken over, in a sense, and is

:31:03.:31:07.

being operated for purposes other than those for which it was

:31:07.:31:11.

intended for the just to confirm, you got no current plans to run for

:31:11.:31:18.

office, but what about the future? As I have said, the chances of a

:31:18.:31:21.

relapse have been a diminishing for long enough that I'm pretty

:31:21.:31:26.

confident that not going to happen. Thanks very much for being with us.

:31:26.:31:30.

My pleasure. Thank you thought up we will take that as no, then,

:31:30.:31:34.

shall we? Stephen Poliakoff is one of our most original film makers

:31:34.:31:38.

with a body of work, stretching back almost four decades. Shooting

:31:38.:31:42.

the Past, Perfect Strangers and The Lost Prince are just a few of his

:31:42.:31:44.

major critical successes. Power, sense of belonging, how we

:31:44.:31:47.

interpret history, what Britain stands for or stood for, are all

:31:47.:31:51.

themes he's dealt with. And which are very apparent in his latest

:31:51.:31:56.

drama, Dancing On The Edge. Set in the early 30s, it follows the

:31:56.:31:59.

fortunes of a fictional black jazz band, who mix in high society and

:31:59.:32:05.

royal circles. I'll be talking to Stephen Poliakoff and one of the

:32:05.:32:09.

stars of the series, Jacqueline Bisset, in a moment. Good morning

:32:10.:32:13.

and welcome to the programme. But first, here's a look at Dancing On

:32:13.:32:23.
:32:23.:32:43.

Goodness knows why you have been left to do this, Stanley? Look at

:32:43.:32:53.
:32:53.:32:55.

Stanley, the young a journalist says something has got to change.

:32:55.:33:00.

He Pioneers the band, doesn't tea, this fictional jazz band, and there

:33:00.:33:05.

they are not going down very well. That's right, yes. Stanley helps

:33:05.:33:12.

them up but it's self-interest, too, and the Imperial people have to

:33:12.:33:20.

become more fashionable. This is all based on truth, although the

:33:20.:33:24.

story itself is fiction, so getting this jazz band to this

:33:24.:33:26.

extraordinarily old-fashioned hotel seemed an incongruous thing to do

:33:27.:33:31.

but it makes sense, so it's in his interests, too, making the place

:33:31.:33:35.

more fashionable. When you say it's based on trick, which bits are

:33:35.:33:42.

true? Two of the royals were into jazz music. The Prince of Wales,

:33:42.:33:46.

Edward VII, and his much younger brother, George, the Duke of Kent,

:33:46.:33:52.

they knocked around together, going to jazz bands, offending musicians,

:33:52.:33:56.

and had intense friendships -- befriending musicians will for the

:33:57.:34:03.

Prince of Wales played drums with Duke Ellington at a party all night.

:34:03.:34:13.
:34:13.:34:16.

But did he? Yes, the drums. It was very informal. That sort of

:34:16.:34:20.

crossing class and race barriers, a moment in history. The early

:34:20.:34:24.

thirties, before the darkness comes up, really fascinating. That is

:34:24.:34:31.

where the story comes from. Jacqueline Bisset, what tended to

:34:31.:34:35.

back to the UK? This gentleman on my left and the script, an amazing

:34:35.:34:43.

script. I was staggered by it and I had to read it fast, but it

:34:43.:34:49.

continued to grow in interest and complexity and all the characters,

:34:49.:34:56.

they are not generic characters, very individual, and have a serious

:34:56.:35:02.

personality traits. Interweaving stories. Very good for the you have

:35:03.:35:07.

a great character, as well. Shall we have a quick look at her? Here

:35:07.:35:15.

Are you a journalist? Is it that obvious, yes. I have nothing

:35:15.:35:21.

against journalists, I never talk to them. I understand. Actually, we

:35:21.:35:25.

might bump into each other later today because your kindly allow and

:35:25.:35:31.

the band to play on your estate. I've always wanted to meet you. In

:35:31.:35:35.

case we run into each other later on, I thought I would say hello for

:35:35.:35:40.

the and now you have done it at considerable length. She appears

:35:40.:35:43.

quite fierce but she is a free spirit. She has got money to put

:35:43.:35:48.

into this new venture. Yes, she's also seeking to have some light in

:35:48.:35:52.

her life. She lost her three sons in the First World War, and has

:35:53.:35:59.

been in a sad place. This young man and his music brings a lot of

:35:59.:36:03.

interest and life and it tests her. Was your character based on

:36:03.:36:12.

anybody? It was suggested by Baroness Rothschild, who helped

:36:12.:36:18.

jazz musicians in the 1950s, so that was the inspiration. I

:36:18.:36:22.

borrowed but real-life figure and went back in history to this time,

:36:22.:36:27.

the 1930s, so she's inspired by something which happened. You said

:36:27.:36:32.

about this five-part drama, it was the most punishing of your career.

:36:32.:36:38.

Why was that? It was a captured, we shot on relocations, bouncing

:36:38.:36:42.

around the country from Birmingham to Sussex to London, to create this

:36:42.:36:50.

world, a huge hotel, a big house, and the backstage staff, so you

:36:50.:36:54.

know, it was a punishing schedule calls that it was exhilarating to

:36:54.:37:00.

work with such an extraordinary group of actors, Jacqueline, John

:37:00.:37:10.
:37:10.:37:11.

Goodman, Chiwetel Ejiofor. A young rising British star, a fantastic

:37:11.:37:18.

soundtrack. They really cheered me up coming on on the set. He was

:37:18.:37:23.

wonderfully warm and very, very encouraging of. Slightly fierce at

:37:23.:37:28.

times for the why? Because of the scheduled for that no messing about.

:37:28.:37:33.

He had to do everything. He wrote and directed all of it, it's very

:37:33.:37:39.

unusual to have one director do the whole thing. In the past you spoke

:37:39.:37:42.

about American directors and said they don't give women the best

:37:42.:37:50.

characters. European women, my point being at that wonderful,

:37:50.:37:53.

brewed European actresses do many films in Europe, go to America, and

:37:53.:38:03.
:38:03.:38:03.

get nothing. The directors don't understand them. And I feel that,

:38:03.:38:07.

the wonderful actors this year, I am a blanking, who played Edith

:38:07.:38:13.

Piaf, she did one of those action movies but they don't take from her

:38:13.:38:18.

what she has also she has so much to give. So we are going to keep

:38:18.:38:23.

you here? I would certainly love to work more for that she is

:38:23.:38:28.

fantastical are coming back here, doing this role. The BBC, it's a

:38:28.:38:33.

big thing for me. She's not on until Tuesday night, the second

:38:33.:38:41.

part. She's not in the first part. Thank you very much. Lovely to see

:38:41.:38:49.

both. Dancing On The Edge starts on Monday on BBC Two at 9pm. After the

:38:49.:38:51.

9/11 attacks on New York, Tony Blair promised that Britain would

:38:51.:38:54.

stand shoulder to shoulder with the United States in what became known

:38:54.:38:57.

as the war on terror. Recent events in Algeria and Mali demonstrate

:38:57.:39:04.

that the terrorist threat may have moved, but it hasn't gone away. Can

:39:04.:39:08.

it be defeated militarily? And how deeply should British forces be

:39:08.:39:13.

involved? Questions which the former Prime Minister has been

:39:13.:39:16.

reflecting on, saying David Cameron is right to talk of a generational

:39:16.:39:26.
:39:26.:39:26.

struggle. I'm joined now by Tony Blair. Good morning. When you look

:39:26.:39:32.

at what's happening in Mali at the moment, do you think there is the

:39:32.:39:36.

men, will, resources, for a generation struggle in North

:39:36.:39:40.

Africa? First of all, I think we should acknowledge just how

:39:40.:39:44.

difficult this a decision is. Sometimes in politics you come

:39:44.:39:48.

across a situation where the choice is binary. You go this way or that

:39:48.:39:54.

way but it's ugly and messy, and if we engage with this, not just

:39:54.:39:56.

minutes Howley but over a long period of time, trying to help

:39:56.:40:02.

these countries, it's very, very hard but I think personally the

:40:02.:40:07.

cost of disengaging is going to be even greater. The question is, I

:40:07.:40:12.

suppose, how long you are in there for and how long Britain can afford

:40:12.:40:20.

to be in there for? There is a quote from your mum was. You said,

:40:20.:40:23.

"It is even more clear to me that the battle has to be fought with

:40:23.:40:28.

every means at our disposal and fought until it is won". That is a

:40:28.:40:32.

big task because you are fighting a different type of extremism at the

:40:32.:40:38.

moment. Absolutely but that's why it's difficult. If you look at the

:40:38.:40:42.

cost of not engaging and doing what France and Britain are trying to do

:40:42.:40:47.

in at Mali, suppose you let them being taken over by the terrorist

:40:47.:40:53.

group, they took over a portion of Mali the size of Spain, a breeding

:40:53.:40:57.

ground for treasure, suppose Syria disintegrates, 60,000 people have

:40:57.:41:03.

died there already, with a situation the more extreme elements

:41:03.:41:08.

of the opposition will lead the opposition... Do you go into Syria

:41:08.:41:12.

as well? You would least up to try to shape events in the Middle East

:41:12.:41:16.

and Egypt. At the present time, if you don't get political dialogue

:41:16.:41:20.

going but in the different parties, to try to stabilise the economy,

:41:20.:41:24.

you would have a situation where the largest country in the Middle

:41:24.:41:28.

East is in a state of future at fragility, possible breakdown, and

:41:28.:41:37.

then Iran. When you look at this over the time since and 9/11, we

:41:37.:41:42.

always want, in the West, to go in and go out, and think there is a

:41:42.:41:46.

clean result. It's not going to happen like that. It's going to be

:41:46.:41:52.

long and difficult and messy. If you don't intervene, and you just

:41:52.:41:57.

let it happen, it's also going to be a long and difficult and messy

:41:57.:42:02.

and possibly a lot worse, so it's a very difficult decision. I found

:42:02.:42:06.

these decisions are immensely difficult when I was in government

:42:06.:42:09.

and I don't envy David Cameron having to take the decision now,

:42:09.:42:14.

but I think he's right, you have got to take a view that the long-

:42:14.:42:20.

term view and be prepared to engage. When you say long term, decades?

:42:20.:42:29.

don't know. Certainly talking about a generation. If you look at this

:42:29.:42:32.

ideology, it's based on a perversion of religion in the end

:42:32.:42:36.

because that's what makes these countries difficult. I intervened

:42:36.:42:40.

in Kosovo, we went in and came out with a victory. And Sierra Leone,

:42:40.:42:47.

we came up with a victory. Afghanistan? Still there. Very,

:42:47.:42:51.

very difference. The difference is, in those countries, you had a

:42:51.:42:56.

combination of states which had failed to become a rogue states, if

:42:56.:43:01.

you like, plus an element of religion and religious extremism,

:43:01.:43:05.

and so I think the better way to look at it is like the fight the

:43:05.:43:10.

West had over revolutionary communism. It will happen in many

:43:10.:43:13.

different theatres, in many different ways, but there's no

:43:13.:43:18.

option to confronted, and to try to defeated. David Cameron has been

:43:18.:43:23.

quite clear and said, at the moment, in a Mali, the role is a training

:43:23.:43:28.

role for the British forces. Do you think it needs to be, in other

:43:29.:43:33.

places as well, where pockets of extremism is, troops on the ground

:43:33.:43:38.

has to be there? I'm not going to second-guess him on that. There

:43:38.:43:42.

will be different roles in different parts of the world.

:43:42.:43:47.

Sometimes you will use special forces. Sierra Leone, going, Davide,

:43:47.:43:52.

come back out again. Mali is more complicated. In a Sierra Leone,

:43:53.:43:56.

there was a local group that was trying to take over and topple a

:43:56.:44:00.

democratic government but they had no outside connections.

:44:00.:44:08.

Unfortunately, this ideology based on a perversion of the proper face

:44:08.:44:14.

of Islam, it is there in a Mali but has connections all over north up

:44:14.:44:18.

the cup. They are trying to destabilise the northern part of

:44:18.:44:25.

sub-Saharan Africa, so you are the same ideology rising for the these

:44:25.:44:29.

people in Mali are disappearing into the hills. Are they going to

:44:29.:44:34.

turn up somewhere else? A lot of people suggest they came from Libya,

:44:34.:44:38.

for the guns and the men went into Mali and now they're going

:44:38.:44:42.

somewhere else, and we will have to keypad putting fires everywhere in

:44:42.:44:47.

the world. How do we have the resources for that? In that case,

:44:47.:44:52.

it's too difficult, I'm getting out of there? I totally understand that.

:44:53.:44:59.

If you have been through a long drawn-out process in Afghanistan,

:44:59.:45:03.

where we are still struggling, I totally understand why people would

:45:04.:45:08.

say let's get out. Leave them to sort out their own problems, but my

:45:08.:45:13.

fear is that, because this is being driven, by an ideology with a very,

:45:13.:45:19.

very strong desire to push out from the borders of wherever they are,

:45:19.:45:22.

if we do disengage, we will get a different set of problems, further

:45:22.:45:28.

down the line more serious, so that's the choice. You are right,

:45:28.:45:33.

if you drive these people into the hills, when you go, they come back,

:45:33.:45:38.

so how do then stay there for the long term? I studied as a lot since

:45:38.:45:44.

I left office, I work in 20 countries around the world in one

:45:44.:45:48.

way or another, and I have learned two things which are important. We

:45:48.:45:53.

have got to put effort into building capacity in the States

:45:53.:45:56.

which could fail to govern themselves sensibly and that can be

:45:56.:46:00.

done in a different way but it's really, really important, and the

:46:00.:46:06.

second thing is, we have to do with religious extremism and deal with

:46:06.:46:12.

it in these places as religion. By trying to create a sense of

:46:12.:46:15.

circumstances for example in how children are educated in these

:46:15.:46:25.
:46:25.:46:31.

countries, to lead them to an open- You talk about an Islamist ideology.

:46:31.:46:35.

There is no one ideology. It is not alquidia you are fighting in

:46:35.:46:39.

Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is a new kind of threat? It is linked by

:46:39.:46:44.

a common thread. You are right in a sense. I'm not suggesting there is

:46:44.:46:48.

a command and Control Centre with a designated leader. That's

:46:48.:46:52.

absolutely true but if you look over the Middle East and North

:46:52.:46:56.

Africa and through into Central Asia, now. There is an identifyable

:46:56.:47:02.

ideology, that's based on a perversion of religion. It may have

:47:02.:47:05.

its many different off-shoots but they have that in common. So,

:47:05.:47:10.

trying to deal with that element of it and being express about it. You

:47:10.:47:13.

know, saying - let's get that out there on the table and see how we

:47:14.:47:18.

deal with it, I think is really important. Here is good news in all

:47:18.:47:21.

of the bad news. Every where I go, no matter how difficult the

:47:22.:47:26.

situation of the country, in truth, the majority of the people in those

:47:26.:47:32.

countries want the same things as we want. They want to be able to

:47:32.:47:35.

elect their government. They want religion in its right place. They

:47:35.:47:38.

want a better rule of law. They want it raise children with a

:47:38.:47:44.

chance of prosperity. They want to know if they work and play by the

:47:44.:47:48.

rules they can get somewhere. The majority of people, even in the

:47:48.:47:50.

countries where the worst trouble, is want something better. Rather

:47:50.:47:54.

than disengage, we have to help them get there. So, wherever you

:47:54.:47:57.

see this flame of militant Islam, you are suggesting Britain should

:47:57.:48:02.

get involved militarily in some form or another? I'm not suggesting

:48:02.:48:06.

it has to be militarily it. Could be very different ways. Where

:48:06.:48:11.

should it be militarily? It depends on the nature of the threat. For

:48:11.:48:14.

example in Mali. Think France is right and it is a courageous

:48:14.:48:18.

decision of President Hollande to go if n there and intrin right to

:48:18.:48:26.

give support. There would be -- there and Britain is right to give

:48:26.:48:31.

support. Well 60,000 people have been killed there in two years.

:48:31.:48:34.

Should Britain intervene there in Syria? It is not just a question of

:48:34.:48:39.

Britain, it is for the West. The question is how. It is very hard.

:48:39.:48:42.

You know, if you arm the opposition, who are you arming? I have been

:48:42.:48:48.

suggesting for a long time you try to create safe havens for the - you

:48:48.:48:56.

know for the Syrian opposition to operate from. But I do think Al-

:48:56.:49:03.

Sadr - Assad has to know he can not carry on what he is doing which is

:49:03.:49:06.

businessically because the Syrian Army won't engage with the rebel

:49:06.:49:12.

forces in hand-to-hand gt, they are firing scud missiles and heavy

:49:12.:49:16.

artillery into entire villages and wiping them out. The devastation is

:49:16.:49:20.

extraordinary. My anxiety about Syria, although some people think

:49:20.:49:24.

if you look at Syria, OK it's a terrible tragedy, humanitarian

:49:24.:49:27.

tragedy, but does it have any regional consequences? Well, I

:49:27.:49:32.

would say it does. If that spills out from Syria. What does Britain

:49:32.:49:37.

do? I think we have not just Britain, but what the West has to

:49:37.:49:42.

do is see how it can bring this to an end now. Now, that's partly

:49:42.:49:46.

through trying to get Russia into a different position. I know efforts

:49:46.:49:51.

are happening to that end. I also think you have got to... Three UN

:49:51.:49:54.

resolutions they have not backed. We have to be careful about putting

:49:54.:49:57.

all our eggs in that basket. But there are certain things we can do

:49:57.:50:00.

to help strengthen the opposition and make it clear to Assad in the

:50:01.:50:05.

end he is not going to win this and he is not going to have a stalemate.

:50:05.:50:11.

It will West End his defeat and his going. The question is: is he gsh

:50:11.:50:16.

it will end in his defeat. Otherwise the risk is, and you see

:50:16.:50:19.

this from other countries that have gone through this process of

:50:19.:50:23.

revolution, you end up with a situation which the state then

:50:23.:50:26.

starts to collapse. You mentioned yourself the difficulties of

:50:26.:50:31.

getting a UN resolution with Russia already having rejected it a few

:50:31.:50:36.

times. Is the only answer to go in? No, I don't think you are ever

:50:36.:50:41.

going to go in in the sense of British troops on the ground. The

:50:41.:50:44.

question is, what more can you do to help the opposition? There are

:50:44.:50:48.

options there which I thinks is important to look at. Can I turn to

:50:48.:50:52.

Europe, which is a battle that David Cameron is having. At the

:50:52.:50:57.

moment he wants to reform Britain's relationship with Europe and then

:50:57.:51:03.

have a in-out referendum. You said, when you heard his speech, 90%

:51:03.:51:07.

resonated with you and you agreed with 90% of it. What about the in-

:51:07.:51:10.

out referendum, wouldn't that be a way of solving things once and for

:51:10.:51:18.

all, sn drawing a line under it. is -- draw and drawing a line under

:51:18.:51:25.

it it. If the case is - should Europe reform? That's a case made

:51:25.:51:28.

by many Prime Ministers, Margaret Thatcher, Gordon Brown, John Major.

:51:29.:51:32.

And step by step there have been significant reforms in Europe as a

:51:32.:51:36.

result of that. So where it is about - should Europe reform, I'm

:51:36.:51:42.

100% with him actually. It is where you say - but if it doesn't, then

:51:42.:51:50.

we want out. That, you know that is to put the "out" question on the

:51:50.:51:56.

ballot paper. First of all it creates we are in an uncertain

:51:56.:51:59.

situation. Everywhere I go, people say - is Britain really going to

:51:59.:52:04.

get out of Europe snuck not answer that conclusively. Secondly, the

:52:04.:52:07.

overwhelming likelihood of what will happen is he will try to get

:52:07.:52:11.

certain changes in Europe. He may get some. He will only get them by

:52:11.:52:14.

saying there is going to be a referendum if you do it, surely.

:52:14.:52:17.

I'm not sure about that. Remember, other countries in Europe also have

:52:17.:52:21.

their politics. If you are talking about reforming yuefrplt you are

:52:21.:52:25.

talking about the interests of 27 - - reforming Europe. If you are

:52:25.:52:29.

saying Britain's relationship with Europe, it is one verses 26. You

:52:29.:52:33.

better make sure they are lined up behind that. If they are not and

:52:33.:52:36.

any one say no. I cannot really believe that David Cameron thinks

:52:36.:52:40.

it is sensible to get out of Europe, even if he doesn't achieve all that

:52:40.:52:45.

of agenda. You see what I mean? It depends if he gets re-elected but

:52:45.:52:49.

you are in a situation where four or five years down the line, until

:52:49.:52:55.

then there is uncertainty and at that point, who knows what might

:52:55.:52:59.

happen and if Britain did vote for out, I think it would be a huge

:52:59.:53:02.

problem for our country. The bring to realise about Europe is the

:53:02.:53:07.

rational is not about peace. That was my father's generation. The

:53:07.:53:11.

rational for Europe today is power. Inal world of China with 1.3

:53:11.:53:16.

billion people and India with over a billion and increasingly because

:53:16.:53:20.

of mobile capital and technology, you know, the weight of your

:53:20.:53:25.

country's economy is linked to your population. So in time to come,

:53:25.:53:30.

Britain, 60 million people a small island nation, if we want it

:53:30.:53:36.

exercise weight and influence and power in the world, why would we

:53:36.:53:39.

separate ourselves from the biggest political union and largest

:53:39.:53:45.

supermarket on our doorstep. there was a referendum you would

:53:45.:53:48.

stand alongside David Cameron, Ed Miliband and everyone else

:53:48.:53:51.

campaigning to stay? Sure, if they are campaigning to stay. In if it

:53:51.:53:56.

got to, that you would be doing that. But I think the tricky

:53:56.:54:01.

question is this: look I spent ten years going through European

:54:01.:54:05.

negotiation. You wanted an in-out referendum at one stage on the EU

:54:05.:54:10.

constitution. Not in-out. "I thought we might turn it into a

:54:10.:54:15.

referendum which is effectively in or out. I fancied mounting a big

:54:15.:54:19.

argument on the issue I felt strongly Balthough a tough

:54:19.:54:23.

challenge, I relished the fight." That would have been a referendum

:54:23.:54:26.

saying - do you agree with the new European constitution or not? It

:54:26.:54:30.

would not have been a referendum saying - if you don't, we should

:54:30.:54:34.

leave. The fact of the matter if we had ended up - look you had to have

:54:34.:54:37.

a referendum because Europe proposed a new constitution. I was

:54:37.:54:41.

reluctant to d it, but in the end I accepted we had to have it. What we

:54:41.:54:44.

are doing in this instance - because this would be perfectly

:54:44.:54:47.

sensible if David Cameron said - I have agreed a certain amount of

:54:47.:54:52.

changes and now I want to put those changes to a referendum. That's one

:54:52.:54:57.

thing. It's the "out" bit of it. Once you put that on the ballot

:54:57.:55:02.

paper, you are then in a situation where, who knows what the

:55:02.:55:07.

circumstances will be. The problem with referendums, which is why you

:55:07.:55:12.

should only use them when it is absolutely res, I then general

:55:12.:55:19.

degall once said, it is about as much about who asked the que, as

:55:19.:55:24.

the question. Deborah math inson has been involved in public opinion

:55:24.:55:29.

for years. She said looking at Labour, the Conservatives seem to

:55:29.:55:33.

have a clear message whether it is Europe or reform. But when it comes

:55:33.:55:38.

to Labour, the public are not quite clear what it stands for. Are you?

:55:38.:55:43.

I'm quite clear. What is it? stands for a society to combine

:55:43.:55:46.

economic prosperity with social justice. But you had New Labour and

:55:46.:55:50.

Ed Miliband sort of sidelined that in his conference speech and said -

:55:50.:55:55.

now we are One Nation. What does that men? I think what it means is,

:55:55.:55:58.

in circumstances where the country has very difficult challenges, it's

:55:58.:56:01.

important that it handles them as one and that you don't end up

:56:01.:56:06.

simply governing for a small group of people at the stop. -- top. I

:56:06.:56:10.

understand the Labour Party message. By the way, what Ed is trying to do

:56:10.:56:14.

is tougher than what I had to do. When I became Labour leader, we

:56:14.:56:18.

lost four elections. This is attempting to bounce back and win

:56:18.:56:21.

after a heavy defeat. You had a clear strategy about what Labour

:56:21.:56:26.

was and what it needed to do to win. Sure. Before you came in in '97.

:56:26.:56:32.

What is Ed Miliband's clear vision? What is the message? The one you

:56:32.:56:35.

have given - if we face difficult and testing times, we should face

:56:35.:56:39.

them together. The burden should be shared equally and we have to

:56:39.:56:42.

create an economy for the future in which opportunity is given to the

:56:42.:56:45.

many and not the few. I don't think it is a problem with the vision,

:56:45.:56:50.

actually. I think what there will be, is a big challenge when it

:56:50.:56:56.

comes to - how do you translate that into practical policy. Sn

:56:56.:57:00.

that's -- that's for later in this year when the Labour will unveil

:57:00.:57:02.

its policies. This is a situation where the economy is very tough,

:57:02.:57:06.

where we are going to face a situation, whoever is in Government,

:57:06.:57:10.

they are going to be very constrained. That's why it will be

:57:10.:57:13.

important for the Labour Party to show it is reformers, they are

:57:13.:57:16.

reformers and they are able to reform public services, welfare,

:57:16.:57:21.

the state and so on, as well as simply protect people who are

:57:21.:57:24.

vulnerable. So a clear policy has to emerge by the end of this year.

:57:24.:57:28.

That's what you seem to be saying, if they are going to wint election?

:57:28.:57:32.

They are an opposition party. I don't favour hugely detailed policy

:57:32.:57:37.

but the orientation will be clear. Do you advise Ed Miliband, does he

:57:37.:57:41.

talk to you? I talk to him. I don't presume to advise him or anyone

:57:41.:57:45.

else. You talk to David Cameron, officially, unofficially, both?

:57:45.:57:48.

talk to him from time to time as well. Look, when you have gone

:57:48.:57:53.

through this all this and sat in the seat, both adds Leader of the

:57:53.:57:56.

Opposition and Prime Minister, you know how damned difficult both jobs

:57:56.:58:02.

are. I come to a sense of - believe it or not humility about this - I

:58:02.:58:05.

know it is really difficult. The last thing I want to do with either

:58:05.:58:11.

individual, by the way, is end up, you know, being one of those sort

:58:11.:58:16.

of pains in the neck that sit in the back seat saying - I would have

:58:17.:58:20.

done this and that. On something like Europe, I will speak out but

:58:20.:58:25.

even then I try to do it respectively. I don't - for Ed and

:58:25.:58:29.

for David Cameron, if they ever want help or advice I would try to

:58:29.:58:33.

give it in what I thought was the best interest of the country.

:58:33.:58:37.

much more we could get through. That's all we have time for. Thank

:58:37.:58:41.

you very much, Tony Blair. That is all we have time for today. Thanks

:58:41.:58:47.

to all my guests this morning. Next Sunday James Landale will be here,

:58:47.:58:53.

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