10/02/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. If I can give you one piece of advice today, and it is to

avoid the newspapers if you are preparing the Sunday roast, and

whatever it is, could well, because horsemeat is in the headlines. Last

week, we disinterred the monarch who wanted a horse, now we cannot

move for it. To discuss the newspapers, Margaret Hodge, and

Conservative commentator Tim A few months ago, the NHS was being

celebrated at the Olympics ceremony as one of the glories of Britain.

This report told a very different story at Mid Staffordshire Hospital.

It is fortuitous that the Health Secretary is going to unveil plans

for long-term care for the elderly. He hopes these plans might keep all

the people out of hospital in the first place. Jeremy Hunt is here to

discuss this important reform. We're also talking about care and

compassion in the health service, and whether doctors, nurses and

managers should be more accountable when things go wrong. This morning,

she claims to be the only political party leader who can shear a sheep.

She learned the skill in her native Australia. Natalie Bennett from the

Green Party is here. With pressure to build more Houses and roads,

what is the green answer to the challenges facing 21st century

Britain? With the BAFTAs awards looming, Dame Judi Dench, star of

the latest James Bond and film, Skyfall. She speaks about playing M,

the role which has won her an international following, and how

she finally comes out from behind her desk in this film. I got into

shed 19, we learn how to shoot a gun. I love it. We will have a

music from the renowned cellist First, the news. The Government is

expected to extend a freeze on the amount people can inherit tax free

to help pay for more state-funded care for the elderly in England.

The amount will be pecked at the hundred and �25,000 for individuals,

dragging more people into inheritance tax. -- �325,000. The

Government will announce it will cap the cost of social care for

�75,000. They will also extend state help �100,000 more than the

current limit. Retailers have agreed to carry out more thorough

testing of beef products after some find more 100 horsemeat in product.

The government has warned it is likely to be found in many more

products. It is the scandal that has left many feeling decidedly

unwell. Processed food containing at most 100% horsemeat. With the

scandal beginning more than a month ago, questions are being asked why

they did not take this action they did not take this action

sooner. If ministers had advised that this three-week ago, they

could have been providing reassurance to consumers that the

products were now say. Environment Secretary has warned

the results of this Test could bring more bad news. The body

representing school caterers says they are as certain as anybody

could be that horsemeat is not being used in schools, but

certainty is not in much supply. The product's at the centre of this,

the lasagne, came from meat that was from Romania. The government

says Ackerman all -- the government says a criminal conspiracy could be

behind this. They will be monitoring stricter rules for the

food industry. A fox has attacked a four-week-old

baby at his family home in Bromley in south-east London. Unconfirmed

newspaper reports said plastic surgeons had reattached the finger

after it was bitten off. The Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, has

called on local councils to do more to tackle the problem of urban

foxes, of which there are believed to be 10,000 in the capital.

Barclays is closing down the part of the business that helps people

avoid tax. It is believed to have saved firms billions of pounds over

the years. The new chief executive, Anthony Jenkins, is expected to say

the activity is no longer compatible with the new approach. A

massive clean-up operation is under way after a storm left up to a

metre of snow in eastern America and Canada. Transport was disrupted,

and several deaths were reported. After the storm, much of the US is

still stuck. The blizzard blanketed nine parts of America and Canada.

People are advised to stay off the road. The more the roads are clear

of general traffic, the more efficient it will be to clean up

and get back to normal. The impact was dramatic, among several

fatalities was an 11-year-old boy, keeping warm in a car with the

engine on wealth the exhaust pipe was being blocked. He died from the

fumes. Electricity will be gradually restored. Across much of

the North East and America this is what you see, neighbourhoods

digging out. Yesterday was hectic. I was helping my father, he was

getting up at 3am, I helped him out. As for the weather, the sun is

welcome but it means the snow could That is all from me for now, I will

be back with the headlines just before 10am. On the front pages

today we have lots of horsemeat. We have stories about social care, as

well as evidence of neglect in hospitals. The Independent, leading

on horsemeat. Scotland on Sunday, they have the Scottish take on it.

The government are accusing the SNP -- they are accusing the SNP. The

Sunday Times have a story about Barclays. They are also talking

about social care. The Mail reports on the fox. The Sunday Express on

Let's start with horsemeat. We cannot avoid it. The poor Prime

Minister, he had huge success at the EU summit, and would have hoped

for a Saturday or a weekend full of positive papers about a deal that

was not impossible, but nearly every newspaper is focusing on

horsemeat. The Sunday papers seem to be moving to a label in problem.

But the stories in the Sunday Express, there are suggestions that

they may be contaminated drug products entering the food chain.

Owen Paterson has been gathering people in a summit and hopefully

they will get to the bottom of what might be a lot more scandal.

have been a minister, why do governments appear to be off the

pace with these stories? On the back foot, that is what the feeling

is. The Irish got off the ground quicker than we did. I think this

is a really complex problem. I found another story on this, the

Food Services Authority is testing the horsemeat, finding some drugs

in some of them, then sending them abroad. That is a nasty drug given

to horses to make their joint better. The reason this is complex

is your finding Romania, Poland, France, so it is a global issue.

Trying to get through that, regulating that in a sensible way,

through labelling, that is really difficult. It is a European problem,

we take a lot of things on trust and many consumers will be

wondering if there is enough inspection. Is Owen Paterson doing

enough? I think so. He has been in the job for six months, he has had

the ASH tree disaster, floods, shale gas, lots of issues. He is

one of the most effective ministers in the government. He has had some

criticism but he other record neither -- he has a record that

means he will get on top of this. There are suggestions in the paper

that Number Ten are briefing against him. We do not want to

behave like that. This is the disunity in the Conservative Party

showing its base in another light. I do not think this is the end of

the story, everybody is speaking about it being food labelling so

far, we shall see how it emerges over the week. It is scary.

Hopefully the energy of the Government will be focused on

protecting the consumer. You spoke about disunity. Still more coverage

of equal marriage in the newspapers. The Sunday Telegraph letters page

is full of Tory members saying they did not expect this from a Tory

government, threatening to resign their party membership or not vote

Conservative. It connects very much at Eastleigh, because what is

happening there is a neck-and-neck race. We had another poll giving

the Conservatives have 3% lead, then the Lib Dems got a 3% lead. It

will be a case of getting your troops out. If the gay marriage

fall-out is correct, it may not be a story that is important in terms

of moving public opinion, but it does matter. There are interesting

things about this, the UK Independence Party are there, and

the role that they play in cutting the Tory vote will be interesting.

There is also an independent Lib Dem who will stand because he is so

angry about Nick Clegg's line on the health service. Our top the two

parties contending the seat, they are... You are writing off Labour.

Labour will fight a strong fight, and I gather we have doubled our

results in the polls. What is interesting is for the Lib Dems in

the past, they have always said cannot vote Labour because that

will keep the Tories out, that is no longer true, and for David

Cameron, winning the seat is hugely important. How significant is this

in terms of the coalition? In terms of the lessons for the coalition

conducting itself. I think both parties will probably behave

reasonably courteously. The alternative vote referendum

injected quite a bit of poison into the coalition because the Lib Dems

felt the Conservatives had thrown the kitchen sink at winning that.

There is still life in the coalition, they are doing things

together, but they will not want this to unsettle that. Margaret, a

new story, more companies not paying tax. It is two stories in

the Observer. The front-page story is the Associated British Foods,

operating in Zambia. It is a very poor country, they are not paying

any tax for public services. The tax rate is 0.5% of their massive

profit. That is at tax avoidance issue, taking advantage. Link that

a story also on page three of the Observer, Barclays closing their

tax avoidance unit, because it has made an assessment of the business,

and is trying to ensure it is more ethical rather than profitable.

This avoidance unit apparently created more than 100% of the

profits. Is this company's putting their Houses in order or are they

being reluctantly dragged in to replace politicians want? I think

this is an issue at the moment, and in Parliament, the way that he we

have -- the way we have shone a spotlight on these issues as

damaged the reputation of these companies. I often argue with

people whose business it is to help -- to help corporations avoid tax,

and they do not understand that there is an ethical and moral

dimension to this. They're absolutely his command you have

done a courageous job in highlighting abuse, but ultimately,

the Government is responsible for this. They have created a

fiendishly complicated tax system which they take advantage of.

George Osborne said he would simple Fayed but it is getting more

complicated. Until we have a simple tax code but businesses cannot get

round, we will always have these What have you picked out? This is

evidence that the coalition is still working. It is a landmark

reform. It will mean that people will no longer have to sell their

homes in order to pay for their care. I'm not entirely sure that at

a time of austerity it's the best use of money. The centre for social

justice has argued the money could be better spent keeping people at

home, paying care workers a better wage, helping them to understand

dementia. This is a vote-winner. There are some polls in the Sunday

Times, which suggest this is supported by three-quarters of the

population. Politics is dictating this. This is something Labour was

accused of ducking for many years - this issue. Let's see the

announcement tomorrow and see how it pans out. I am not sure... I

don't have the confidence that Tim has, that this, the proposals put

forward by the coalition, will solve the problem. Most people,

when they go into care, only stay there for up to two years before

they die. So the �75,000 limit you are expected to pay means most

people, will be paying for their own care. It's a lot of money in

the average house, worth of a house. It is a much greater system. I

picked out an article in the Sunday Times - the home care chiefs who

cash in as the elderly suffer. What they are saying is the quality of

care in the care homes is poor. I think the debate has to be as much

about what we're offering to elderly people, as to of course the

important issue of how we pay for it. What I hope is this is an issue

where if we don't get cross-party co-operation on it, you won't solve

it because you cannot do knit the lifetime of one Parliament. You

need -- you can't do it in the lifetime of one Parliament.

You have held a lot of public officials to account - I think we

will watch a little clip of you in action. This is you grilling

executives from Starbucks, Google and Amazon about their corporate

tax affairs. You depend on the services which come out of the tax

you pay. You depend on the ability of getting your goods around. You

have to get the roads in place - you depend on all those things.

Probably worse of you, you employ people on probably minimum wage f

we are lucky. Then we, the taxpayer pick up the tax credit bill for

that address well. We are putting money into the people. You don't

put enough money into the economy. There we go!

I never watch myself! My question is this - do Select Committees like

yours actually make a difference, or do they generate a lot of

headlines and members of the committee get a bit shouty, or do

you sometimes change policy? think we change policy. I think, we

are halfway through the issue on tax avoidance and we will continue

to focus on it until we get a change of policy, but I think by

shining a light on big issues like that, we force the politicians, in

Government, the executive, to actually take action. What has been

so interesting is to watch all members of the coalition now saying

they will tackle it. Three things - of course I welcome the G8

commitments, because of course getting a global agreement is very,

very good. I agree with Tim entirely about simplifying the tax,

which is a sort of medium-term issue. The real thing is, we could

do more now. We could strengthen HMRC now, so they are tougher in

dealing the accountants and companies. We could do naming and

shaming now, as a real way of damaging the reputations of these

big companies. Why can committees have a bigger affect in some cases

than the ministers? It has. We have seen ministers talking about

getting these big, multinational firms to pay. The public shaming

that Margaret's committee did, that is why they offered the money. We

saw it with Barclays, we saw... actually have lawyers asking

questions for them. I don't like that actually. I think once you get

lawyers in, people get inhibited and you cannot have that same, open

conversation. The Treasury is doing this around the banking commission.

Normally I think it would not allow us to have the full, frank

conversations. I probably could not have said what I said there if we

had lawyers in the room. It is good for Parliament. It is. Thank you

both for being with us this morning. Winter still has us in its grip.

More icy blasts sweeping across the country today, I fear. Let's find

out the full details from the We are likely to see more snow

again. The emphasis is on the cold and wet. That snow will feature

more and more as we go into the afternoon and evening. For the time

being, the radar, most is rain. Some heavy - easing off into

showers across the far west at the moment.

This is where we have snow lying in the Pennines, the Peak District, in

particular. More of that to come during the day. In the up lands,

the higher grounds of eastern Scotland and to the East Midlands

and south-east. Still mix in with rain at this stage. Milder further

west. As the wind digs in, snow becomes a feature for the second

half of the day. Disruption is going to be fairly

patchy. The snowfall will vary greaty.

Also to lower levels across the Midlands, south Wales and the south

east, - there will some areas that see barely nothing at all. Ice

around tomorrow as well as lying snow.

-- laying snow. A grey, cold day here. Brightness

in the far south-west, with one or two showers. Icy start here and for

all, chilly in the breeze. Back to D the Prime Minister once said he

wanted to lead the greenest Government ever. We don't hear so

much about that now, with ministers much more preoccupied with the

economy. The quest for growth is likely to mean building more houses,

more roads and bigger airports. There seems to be a backlash

against wind turbines. Are we turning away from the environmental.

I am joined by the leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett. Are

we turning around from environmental issues? We have grave

concerns that the Government, which originally started out with at

least a green wash of environmental issues has turned away from that.

They are simply failing to deliver on things that make perfect sense

for a jobs-rich low-carbon economy. The whole pattern of austerity, it

is very clear that is an economic model which has failed. In the

Green Party we believe we must be investing in the future of Britain.

We have to invest in the right things. Some people think the

Government is going too far. It is subsidising insulation of people's

homes, renewable energy. Particularly on wind farms, many

think the Government is doing too much? That means renewables. It

means we have to spend money on something. The Government is

conducting secret negotiations, although they said they would not

substiez nuclear. We are looking at them offering EDF a 30-year

contract, �30 billion to subsidise nuclear. That is the wrong

direction. We need to spend money on cutting the demands and then

less on generating things with wind turbines, with solar. All those

things we need to do to secure our energy supply. Isn't the problem

that you are going against the tide on this? Tide could be useful in

the future, certainly. There is shale gas and this fracking

procedure. The Government appears to be keen on this. It is

transforming energy markets around the world. Isn't this undermining

the case for renewables? Frbging is no answer for -- Fracking is no

answer for Britain at all. The shales we have in Europe are much

deeper and more shallow than in America. It is a different

geological category. If you go to the committee on climate change, an

independent body, they are saying at the best possible estimate shale

could supply 10% of Britain's needs. If we look into gas, what we are

locking is expensive gas fire in the future. We know that Energy

Bills have gone up enormously. wonderful cheap energy? It is not

cheap. No prediction this will cut prices here. Fracking, the areas

where they talk about it, local people have looked into it and are

concerned. You are talking about industrialising the countryside.

Huge lorry movements, five million gallons of water per well. You have

to find and then get rid of. In America they have large areas of

land with very few people in them. They can write off that land. Here,

we have people everywhere. They don't want to live in the middle of

a industrialised countryside. is a greater priority - economic

growth or protecting the environment? What we need to is

invest in home insulation, renewable energy. We need to bring

manufacturing and food production back to Britain. You have talked a

lot this morning about the horsemeat scandal and what a giant,

globalised food system is doing. We are importing most of our fruit

into Britain. We need to have our own fruit, have our own meat. We

are investing the strong local economies, manufacturing food

production, and ensure warm, comfortable houses. All those

things we need to invest in. We need to build a jobs-rich, low-

carbon economy. Can you sheer a sheep? It has been a few years.

is an era of cuts. You have some experience with that. Indeed.

you for joining us. Spoiler alert - if you have not seen the latest

James Bond film Skyfall and don't want to know how it ends - as sport

presenters say, look away now. If you have seen it you will know Dame

Dench makes a dramatic exit. After seven films, two decades, she has

relinquished control to Ralph Fiennes. Sophie Raworth asked Dame

Judi what it is like to be a central part of Skyfall. Directed

by Sam Mendes, it is the most successful Bond film ever. It has

been wonderful and it has been very, very good luck that it has been

such a wonderful film. After 18 years, it's pretty nice -- it's a

pretty nice way to - I should not say end up ow any way, finish off.

Did you know when you signed up to it that you would have the ending

you did? Yes, I did. I was told early on. So I could get rid of the

kind of peeved face and start to nod and smile and say, "Yes, of

course." You have done seven Bond films in 18 years - you have

obviously loved them? When they come to do the next one, I shall

hang around trying to put the boot into Ralph Fiennes, I expect.

do you think he will be like? Iic. It will be different. --

terrific. It will be different. Piers is different than Daniel.

That's the thrilling thing about it. The moment that you die, I mean,

people talk about it in an emotional way and you can see Sam

Mendes himself, he wipes away a tear on set. It was make-up. I

think they were emotional when they actually said, "Cut." I was

emotional then. We all had a drink. That, and cake and everything -

It was a really big film for you. You were the Bond girl at the

beginning of the film. I got into Shed 19. It is where you learn to

shoot a gun. I didn't know what it was. You get in to... You start to

fire at things - it is thrilling. It is thrilling because it is

pretend. This is the film where M I used to say that everyone else

got to go to interesting places, I did not get to go anywhere. Once,

they gave me a trailer with Innsbruck on the side. It was not

what I imagined. Do you think the way that women have moved on in

Bond films, it has not changed very much? There was one that got

dispatched quite quickly. M did not get too much of a go with the guns.

At least M is played by a woman. That did not happen before. Then

she gets replaced by a man. Yes, quite. Do not annoy me. You're not

leaving it behind entirely. Next month, you take to the stage in the

West End in a new play written by the opera of Skyfall, you will be

co-starring with some of the actors from the film. Tell me about it.

is a conversation imagined the USA Knockouts people, who met to open

an exhibition. -- imagined between two people. It is an imagined

conversation. They are speaking about what they might have spoken

about. It is very interesting, it is unlike any player I have read.

It is the first time you will have gone on stage for a few years. Is

it daunting? I hope I have the energy. I think I have the energy.

That is what you require, real energy. I remember being told a

long time ago that the audience had not come to see being tired,

thinking about something else. There is a story to be told.

have just turned 78, and a three- month run, on stage every day, it

must be exhausting. You're making me tired thinking about it. If

you're lucky enough to keep going, and if you love it, we are in a

minority of people who wanted to do a job and get employed and are able

to make a living at it, and can do it. That is a tiny minority. It is

wonderful, if it can happen to you. I remember Trevor Nunn coming into

my dressing room, and saying I was always in tears. In a way, I am,

because I think it will be the last thing I do. Which is a very

poignant thought. Do you still get the thrill of being on stage?

You get a whole group of people coming and sitting in the dark, and

you tell them a story. Dame Judi Dench speaking to Sophie Raworth.

Skyfall is out on Blu-ray and DVD on 18th February, and is up for

some of wards at the BAFTAs ceremony. Dame Judi Dench has been

nominated as well. The investigation into Mid

Staffordshire Hospital was scandalous. The cultural neglect

scandalous. The cultural neglect and cruelty inflicted on the

elderly. But how many of these patients should have been in

hospital in the first place instead of getting care elsewhere? Tomorrow,

the Government will announce finally how the well-funded health

care for the elderly, and Jeremy Hunt is here to discuss it. Good

morning. The plans are out tomorrow, what are they? I will be announcing

that a parliament, and I cannot Prix announce it on this television

programme, as much as that would be a pleasure. -- announce it first.

We have a scandal here, every year, 40,000 people are selling their

Houses to pay for their care costs. Around 10% of us end up paying more

than �100,000 in care costs. If you have dementia, which will affect a

million people in the next few years, you have to cope with an

incredibly difficult condition, loss of memory, the impact on

relationships, then you have to sell your home as well. That is

what we want to sort out. We want to help people who have done the

right thing, work hard, save money, this measure will cost possibly �1

billion per year, at times when money is very short, but we're

doing it because it is the right thing and it supports the right

people. The limit you are proposing, it will be higher than that

recommended by the commission will look into this. Why? There is a

misunderstanding about the cap, because if you set it at �75,000,

that is not saying that we want everybody to pay �75,000 before the

state helps, actually, we do not want anyone to pay anything at all,

and by setting an upper limit to how much people need to pay, that

makes it possible for insurance companies to offer policies, for

people to have options on their pension so that anything you pay

under that cap is covered, and the big change here, the really

important reason why we are doing this, other governments have

avoided it, is because we need to change the culture in our country,

so that as people make provision for their pensions, in their 20s,

30s, we also need to be a country where people prepare for their

social care. But the limit was set much lower on the commission and as

a result people will have to pay more than under the proposals.

will need to wait until we announce that, but the point of the limit is

to create a mechanism so that people do not have to pay anything

at all, but finances are very constrained at the moment, and the

fact that we are finding what might be as much as �1 billion per year

to do this shows that we want to help those hard-working people who

have saved all their life and quite randomly find that their House is

at risk. You say it will cost �1 billion per year, how will it pay

before that -- how will it pay for that? I do not want to go into the

details, but let me say there has been speculation about the

inheritance tax. What we're doing is to protect people's inheritance.

The worst thing that could happen is that the most vulnerable moment

in you live, you lose the thing that you work so hard for, your

home. We want to be one of the first countries in the world to

have a system where people do not need to sell their home. We are

back in A 44-ton tanker careered We are back in the territory of

attacks on dying. We should wait until tomorrow. People can be

confident that their homes are safe, and if they have massive social

care costs because of the nightmare of somebody having dementia, the

reason is their home is not address, and we are protecting inheritance,

and we will be proud of that. will be raising the amount of money

that people can have before they start paying. Yes, it is an

important part of these proposals. At the moment you do not get any

help from the government if your home or assets are worth more than

a certain amount. We want to raise that, up to a much larger amount.

Many people say you should start squeezing pensioner benefits to pay

for social care, and what people need his help with social care, not

free bus passes. We have looked at many different options, tomorrow we

will announce the option we have settled on. The point I would make,

what we're going to announce tomorrow is a fully funded solution.

We're not going to do what we might have done, kick it into long grass.

Actually, the credibility of the system rests on a government being

prepared to say that we want this to happen and this is how we will

pay for it. Nick Clegg said in the newspapers that they will make sure

nobody is forced to sell their home in their lifetime to pay for care.

Is that an absolute commitment? That is the objective of what I

will announce tomorrow. objective is not a commitment.

think we are playing with words. We will introduce a policy that means

people do not have to say their homes. I do not know the details of

every individual situation, but Nick Clegg in that article speaks

about the 30 to 40,000 people who sell their homes. We will have a

solution tomorrow that takes away the biggest worry people have when

looking forward to their old age. The great thing about this issue,

you do not know if you will be one of the people who might have to pay

hundreds of thousands of pounds for social care. It is completely

random. 33% of us get dementia but we do not know who they are. This

creates a system where you can spread that risk, and be able to

call into old age knowing that the one thing you worry about most is

not going to happen. We waited for this a long time. When will it

actually happen? That is what I will be announcing tomorrow.

this Parliament? It will be a timescale that is not so far away

that it seems impossible, but I am not saying any more than that.

Let's move on to Mid Staffordshire Hospital. We read this report about

what happened there. More than 1000 people dying prematurely when they

should not have done. This was not a rogue unit, Dr this was an

entirely -- this was an entire institution. I have been speaking

to the family's that suffered this care, they feel very strongly that

it is just wrong but something of this magnitude could happen, and

nobody could be brought to book. What will you do about it?

Obviously, as a politician it is not my job to say that this nurses

guilty, this nurses not guilty, but I have asked a question of the

regulators. Something else in that report is important. Robert Francis

says he does not want ministers to blame people, and say that if one

person had been doing a different job this would not have happened.

Because he says, as you said, this is a cultural problem, we have

developed a system inside the NHS where, for all its virtues, we say

that what counts is what is counted. Actually, some of the most

important things, George Orwell says you can obey the small rules

and break the biggest revolt. The biggest rule is that the people in

the NHS what to look after people with dignity and that -- dignity

The people who did this were managers, doctors and nurses. They

were responsible. They were individuals. They were responsible

for this neglect. And yet, the public out there are thinking

nobody is being held to account for this. I agree, that is one of the

most shocking things about this. That is why if you read the papers,

you see the General Medical Council looking at whether doctors should

be held to account. I have written to the midwifery council. I think

this is a problem. Do you want people to be struck off? Absolutely.

The question I ask is, why is it that we have a system where

potentially 1000 people have lost their lives because of bad care and

nobody is being brought to book? But I do not want to make the

mistake of thinking this is all about bad apples. Last week, I

heard the story of a nurse who was saying to admit somebody to trauma,

she had to fill out at 22 page form and then 10 other forms after that.

What we have at the moment is a system where the people in it want

to do the right thing, but the bureaucracy is so complex, the

hoops they jump through, there is a major London Hospital that said in

the space of over a year, they had 43 assessments and inspections by

24 different bodies. What we have created is a system where the

definition of success for a hospital is the boxes you take,

whether you meet the target, the number of hits you replace, but not

the thing that matters most, how you look after people walk through

the door. That is what we need to change. That culture still exists.

You have kept many of labour's targets, you have kept them all.

What guarantee can you give as Health Secretary that what happened

in Mid Staffordshire Hospital will not happen again? What the Prime

Minister announced on Wednesday is a very fundamental change in the

way that we assess the definition of success for a hospital. He said

we will have a new Chief Inspector of hospitals. You just said there

were too many inspectors. I will be announcing this week how we will

tackle the bureaucracy that is at the heart of this problem, but the

most important thing is that when we say whether or hospital is good

or failing, the amount of listening it does to patients, whether it

puts patients first, asked to be one of the most important thing is

being assessed. That will create an important change. This is really

about freeing up people on the front line who actually went into

the NHS because they want to help people at their most vulnerable but

all too often find they have a system that makes it impossible.

What is it? Is the solution to this more criminal defences, changing

that training, regulating more assistance, closing down hospitals?

What is the Government recommending? There are three

things, first of all, we need to recognise that some of the most

important things cannot be measured, and we need a system that gives

people on the frontline the space to care for people. Whether a nurse,

depressing people on the ward because they have a bad attitude,

lighting up the award because of their sunny disposition, those

things cannot be measured. We need to give people that run on the

front line. The second thing is, when we are assessing how well

hospitals do, the quality of care should be paramount. At the moment,

that is not happening. I think the third thing, this is the other

thing Robert Francis spoke about, we need to make sure when we have

problems in a system, the establishment cannot close ranks.

We should not have a system where the professionals know that

something is going wrong, Robert Francis spoke about more than 50

different early warning signals that were in it -- that were

ignored. The public have a right to know. That is something we need to

He said to find a scapegoat. scapegoat takes the sins of others.

We are talking of people responsible taking responsibility

for what they did. David Nichol son didn't run the hospital. Francis

said... He said that the health authority did not put patients'

health at the forefront. It explains the high mortality rate.

Those are quotes from him. He also said he does not want people to be

fired as a response to this and for people to say, the way we will

solve this is because if we had a different person doing that job at

a particular time this problem would not have happened. That is to

make the problem smaller than it is. This is a very, very big problem

about the overall ethos in the NHS, where we have created structures

that make it difficult for people to do what they went into the NHS

to do. In terms of the performance of the individuals we need more

accountability and structures that hold individuals to account. My job,

as Health Secretary, is to make sure that the structures we have in

place, the culture in service means this can never happen again.

light of all of this, why should health spending be protected from

cuts? It is a misnomer to say that health is getting off lightly.

not saying... Let me answer the question, because demand on the

health service because of our ageing proplation is actually going

up by 4% a year -- population is actually going up by 4% a year. We

are doing half a million more operations year in, year out than

we were two years ago. In order to fund that extra demand we are

having to make big efficiencies. Can you guarantee that health

spending will be protected? That is a matter for the Chancellor and the

Government. All I would say is this Government has nailed its colours

to the mast. We believe the NHS matters. We care passionately about

the services and we protected spending in very, very difficult

circumstances. How confident are you that no hospitals are serving

horsemeat? Well, all hospitals have a responsibility to make sure that

the food they are serving is safe. We don't believe at the moment that

We don't believe at the moment that there are public safety issues.

There may be fraud issues in terms of people eating something that is

not what the label on the tin says it is. All hospitals need to make

absolutely sure that... Have you asked them to make sure? I am very

confident they are. I'm liaising with Owen Paterson to make sure. At

the moment we don't think there is a safety issue. We think there is a

consumer fraud issue, or may be a consumer fraud issue. That is what

Owen's research is establishing. Can you tell me about the state of

your party. Your Prime Minister promised a referendum on the EU. He

has managed to persuade the rest of Europe to cut their budget. At the

same time, there's more talk about leadership speculation, your party

is deeply unhappy about the gay marriage vote. Doesn't this just

show that David Cameron and other modernisers like yourself are not

at one with the rest of your party? I became a Conservative over 20

years ago because I believe we need to have a party that is going to

face up to the tough and difficult decisions in the long-term

interests of the country. I don't believe that other parties do that.

If you look at the record of David Cameron in coalition with the

Liberal Democrats, you have a party that's taken profoundly difficult

decisions on dealing the deficit, incredibly difficult decisions on

reforming the welfare state, on reforming the education system. Now,

what we are talking about this morning, making some very big

changes in health. That's what we Conservatives do. It's not popular,

it's difficult. We are always behind in the mid-term. When it

comes to a general election, the country want to know, did this team

of people face up to the challenges? In the end, what will

make this country great, going forward, is to have Governments

that rise to those challenges. party is split about this? It is

never easy. If you are talking about gay marriage, it is a matter

of conscience. The Prime Minister could have ducked this issue, and

say this is one for the back drawer, for another time. He didn't. This

shows the courage he has. Could it cost you Eastleigh? That will be a

close of fought election. Those voters in Eastleigh will take the

big view. Thank you very much indeed. Now, it is over to the news

headlines. The Health Secretary has told this programme he would be

pleased if disciplinary action is taken against those individuals

responsible for the Mid Staffordshire hospital scandal.

Jeremy Hunt confirmed he hopes anyone found guilty will have the

appropriate action against them, which could include losing their

jobs or being struck off. Retailers have agreed to carry out thorough

testing of beef products. It is hoped that the results will be

published on Friday. The Government has warned that horsemeat is likely

to be found in many more food items and says a criminal conspiracy

could be behind the large-scale contamination.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One will be at

12pm. Back to James in a moment, but first a look at what is coming

up after this programme. Join us from Cardiff. Capital of

the fattest part of the UK, where we will ask, should we tax to

tackle obesity, then is faith come pattable with reason? Dying in

hospital - is the NHS cutting D Michael Gove's decision last week

probable came as music to Julian Lloyd Webber's ears. A core of

academic subjects would lead to the arts being side-lined in schools.

He is here now, along with Shao- Jing and by the harpist. I thought

the decision was odd. The Government have backed - have

expanded the programme which aims to bring people together through

music. So, it seemed a very strange decision. Just at the moment when

we showed with the Olympic ceremonies how strong the arts are.

We punch way above our weight. High not expand - really put Government

muscle behind this arts? It just seemed a very bizarre decision.

also played last year at the Olympics. That must have been

astonishing. It certainly was astonishing. I am on top of the

Albert Hall - I don't think... is it like performing as a husband

and wife team? Does that change the dynamic in any way. In some ways.

Something not really looking forward to it. It's difficult. We

don't argue the rest of the time. When it is about music our opinions

differ. I am told you were once the official harpist to the Prince of

Wales. What did that involve? Involved playing at functions. It

was reestablishing a tradition of royal harpists. Thank you. That is

all we have time for this morning. Thank you to all my guests. Next

week, while Andrew continues his recovery, Eddie Mair will present

the show. His guests will include Sinead O'Connor. Join me at 9am. We