24/02/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. We know one thing for sure - the UK has lost its prized,

triple A rating. What is not so clear is what's to be done. Spend

more to get that elusive growth back into the system? Or slash to

send out the message that the debt really is being tackled. Pretty

soon we may see some white smoke from the chimney, but hang on -

that's a different story. Joining me today for our review of the

Sunday papers, the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng, and Sarah Baxter -

editor of the Sunday Times magazine. Today we have a triple A guest to

talk about the bad economic news - the Business Secretary, Vince Cable.

Of course, the mansion tax was his idea. Would that help us out of the

hole we're in? Separately, we'll ask Mr Cable about the very serious

allegations against his colleague Lord Rennard. Plus, there's

movement on the whole business of finding a way of regulating the

press, but the movement may be backwards. The Conservatives and

Labour just can't agree. Harriet Harman, Labour's deputy leader, is

with us to tell us why she won't sign up to the latest Conservative

proposal. Also this morning, as Pope Benedict begins his last week

in office and the Cardinals prepare to choose his successor, I'll be

discussing the challenges facing the Catholic church with the senior

Archbishop, Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor. Should that white smoke

from the Vatican chimney bring news that the church is changing?

The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time was a best-selling

novel that's now going on stage. are meant to be writing stories

today so why don't you write about what happened to Wellington last

night? But how on earth do you transfer the story of a child's

mind into the theatre? The book's author, Mark Haddon, will be here,

with the actress Niamh Cusack, who stars in the West End theatre

version. All of that is coming up after the news, from Sian Lloyd.

Good morning. Good morning. Britain's most senior Roman

Catholic cleric has been accused of inappropriate behaviour, by several

priests. Cardinal Keith O'Brien, who's the leader of the Catholic

Church in Scotland, has denied the claims. The Observer newspaper says

four men have made official complaints to the Vatican. The

Cardinal, who'll take part in the election of the new Pope in Rome

soon, has been one of the most outspoken critics of same-sex

marriage. A few days ago though, he surprised many commentators, by

telling the BBC that the Church should reconsider its rule that

priests cannot marry. The allegations against Cardinal

O'Brien date back more than thirty years. A spokesman said the

Cardinal contests the claims and is taking legal advice.

The Liberal Democrats have denied newspaper reports that their leader,

Nick Clegg, knew about allegations of misconduct against the party's

former chief executive, Lord Rennard, before they emerged last

week. Several women have accused Lord Rennard of sexual harassment.

He's said he strongly disputes the allegations. Doctors from abroad

who want to work in the NHS in England will have to prove they can

speak English well enough, under new rules to be introduced in April.

At the moment, each Primary Care Trust has its own system but

ministers want to introduce a national list of GPs so doctors who

don't have the right skills can't just move around the country.

A now to bowlers surgery hired a GP who had been turned down for work

elsewhere in England. His concerns about fluency in English were not

shared, and David Gray paid for that with his life - given a lethal

dose of painkillers, and his family have since complained for greater

checks. Now doctors will have to prove they can speak English to

work in the NHS and that information will be held on one

national list. A lot of doctors were very well in the NHS and maker

huge contribution but it is only right any doctor needs to be able

to speak English and that is what this is about. How will this change

language checks on doctors? Those coming from outside Europe are

already check, so the biggest difference will be from doctors

inside the EU, and the government has also promised action will be

taken when concerns are raised, by giving the medical regulator

greater powers to investigate and banned doctors. The plans have been

welcome by patients organisations. It's the first day of voting in the

Italian general election. The contest is seen as crucial to the

country's efforts at tackling its economic problems. The election was

called two months ahead of schedule, after Silvio Berlusconi's People Of

Freedom party withdrew its support for the technocratic government

under Mario Monti. Italy is suffering from its longest

recession in 20 years with record levels of unemployment.

Some of the biggest names in the film world are preparing to set

foot on the red carpet tonight for the 85th Academy Awards ceremony -

the Oscars. Steven Spielberg's Lincoln leads the way with 12

nominations. And history could be made if Daniel Day-Lewis wins his

third Best Actor award for his performance in the film. Other

British hopes on the night rest with the singer Adele, who is

nominated for her Bond theme, Skyfall. That's all from me, for

now. I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

On with the front pages of the newspapers today, and quite a lot

on the scandal over Lord Rennard, who has denied being a sex pest. A

boxer who has allegedly been selling cocaine. Delaying -- the

Sunday Telegraph has the makings of a scandal here, with Lord Rennard,

and Ben Fogle recovering after having his drink spiked. This

Cardinal has condemned homosexuality in the past and now

on the front page. The Scotland on Sunday - the SNP seizes on UK

credit humiliation, they say. With me to review the papers are Sarah

Baxter and Kwasi Kwarteng. This is a provocative story about Britain

losing the triple A credit rating, but I think a lot of that will be

priced in so quite how the journalists have foreseen sterling

will fall tomorrow, I am not sure, but this will have implications for

holiday makers coming in the summer. Fines will be more expensive, so we

will have to wait and see. You are not thinking the Chancellor should

go? No, it is very easy to have a knee-jerk reaction to these things,

but once growth had not come in the economy it was clear the credit

rating would be under pressure. do think George Osborne's own

ratings are taking a tumble, and a lot of stories are very new --

mutinous, always up against somebody. Do you think George

Osborne will last until the next election? Or yes, I would like to

see more corporation tax cuts to run centre vies businesses but I

think generally we have the right approach. There is no big volunteer

for his job because I think William Hague has been telling people he

doesn't want it. Maybe George Osborne is there for the duration.

The Lib Dems are also on the rack over these sex pest allegations. I

don't think Lord Rennard, not a household name but a former Lib Dem

party chief, would ever be on the front pages of the newspapers if we

were not about to see a very bitterly contested by-election.

Eastleigh coming up very soon this week. There is a lot of heat around

the story and it is whether to do - - to do with whether the Lib Dems

were told. I think Lord Rennard has been very close to Nick Clegg and

people within the party who are not supporters of Nick Clegg are

perhaps using the story to try to undermine him. Let's see.

Again, we have the same story - did Nick Clegg know about the sex

scandal? It is not very clear. is not very clear, and they are

denying it fervently. There seems to be a Facebook exchange between

some Lib Dems saying Nick Clegg knows about this and hasn't done

anything, but it is all very allegedly, and Lord Rennard denies

the allegations himself. What will have got here, the Mail on Sunday

saying there is a shock lead for the Tories in Eastleigh. This fight

is leading to a lot of this. On sex scandals, there was a separate one

that you have in the Observer. is very interesting about the UK's

top cardinal accused of inappropriate at spy priests. We

have another story here about the Vatican, saying that they have got

to clean up their laps. We will have a new Pope in the next month

so this puts the spotlight on the Catholic Church with regard to

possibly inappropriate behaviour of their priests and also looking to

the new head of the Church who can steer them to a brighter future.

Another secretive organisation, the BBC, you have something on that?

the problems in the BBC began with Jimmy Savile and Major allegations

against him for groping and far worse. There is a story in the

Sunday Times this morning saying the knives are coming out for Lord

Patten, whether he will be staying as chairman. He said this has been

the worst experience of his whole life. They interviewed him in hung

Kong in a mansion and he had lost his seat in Bath, and he said very

sadly all political careers end in failure. I thought he was here in

the governor's mansion, what is so terrible about that? He has so many

great public service jobs - will this one end in failure? What is

your take on this? Do you think the Jimmy Savile scandal has been well

handled? It hasn't been from a PR point of view, but Lord Patten has

had a lot of experience and high profile jobs, but in this instance

it is slightly unlucky for him because all of this happened years

before he was involved so he has had to carry the can for things

that happened decades before he got into the role, in many cases.

for another person in the public eye, Oscar Pistorius. This is a

fascinating, ongoing story. This newspaper is suggesting that the

model's family were told that Oscar Pistorius beat her with a cricket

bat. On the night itself? Yes, that is the suggestion. They are

suggesting the details of the post- mortem was suppressed or somehow

withheld during the bail application hearing. Things are

looking quite grim in terms of his potential guilt, but I'm not sure

where the Mail on Sunday have picked this up from. It does add a

new dimension to the story. They this is a remarkable story, and

horrible as well. I have to say a big lawyer in the US made an

interesting point saying that many celebrities are interested in

getting off the hook immediately and we don't know if Oscar

Pistorius's lawyer has said some things to get him bail but it may

contradict things that come out later in the trial, and then it

will look worse. The idea that you shoot into the bathroom door

because you hear the noise, maybe in that country you do? The lawyer

is interesting because he was the OJ Simpson's lawyer, and he got him

off so he has an insight into the nature of celebrities. It all feels

very familiar. Let's look at Italy. This is quite an interesting

election, because it could be the end of Silvio Berlusconi. He is

still quite popular in Italy, he has done a populist things, he is

promising rebates on taxes, he is having an aggressive campaign, but

it is unlikely he will pull off a surprise victory. It is

extraordinary how resilient he has been. This story is about a

comedian trying to stand up to the rotten political elite in the

country, and he might do quite well, the story is suggesting. Lastly, I

love the peace by Hilary Mantel which you can reach -- you can read

it in full. Why has she taken out of context? Yes. I think so. It is

a brilliant article. She also speaks about meeting the Queen,

looking at her as if she was a cannibal looking at her dinner.

That is how we view the royals. You can read it all in the Sunday Times.

You can also see what the Mail on Sunday is doing... These days, you

do not even need paparazzi photos, you can go to their Facebook. They

have Prince Harry's girlfriend. think Hilary Mantel has done quite

well out of the story. As an author, publicity is a great thing. I was

wondering whether she would complain about being taken out of

context, but she has not said that until now because she decided it

doesn't matter. You have some news about Oscars doc mac yes, all the

films have political angles, about slavery, about the CA, about the

assassination of Osama Bin Laden, and the French Revolution. -- about

the CIA. I'm not really sure if that last one is relevant. But it

is saying the big triumph this year has been political movies. Daniel

Day-Lewis, who was on the show a few weeks back, could get his third

Best actor Oscar. Every time he gets a bigger Ward, he goes

off.Shoe-making in Tuscany. We all thought he was going to start as a

shoemaker in a film but apparently he just wanted to do it. Now,

apparently he wants to be a stonemason. One more? Yes, I love

the story about pandas. Basically, we're all queuing up for the panda

mating season, and apparently great things are going on to get the

pandas in the mood for Love, they are getting little teasing glimpses

of each other, the male one is practising handstands. Do not get

too excited, I sent a reporter down for exclusive coverage of the

pandas last year after they had arrived and we waited and waited

with bated breath, nothing happened. Will it be the same again? It is

very difficult to get in them -- to very difficult to get in them -- to

get them going. Now the weather. Is I do not think so. The week ahead

will be mainly dry and cold. Probably not as cold as it will

feel today, another cold they across the board. Lots of ploughed

spilling our way today, and some light snow. Many places will be dry.

-- a lot of cloud. Strengthening wind in the south-east, sunshine in

the west and north. The best of the sunshine will be in Northern

Ireland and western Scotland after a frosty start this morning. It

might brighten up in East Scotland, with some brief showers in

Murrayfield where the rugby is in Edinburgh. Some brighter skies in

the north-west, and in Wales, south-west England, some wintry

flurries commanded the south-east, it will feel much colder, with this

cold when developing. That will die down overnight, continuing to blow

in some light or sleek snow showers. Further west and north, where we

have clearer skies, a rural areas down to minus two degrees. It

should not last long, it will be a bright day on Monday. Clyde will

fill in a cloudy day. Some like rain. -- the rain will be light. So

-- a bitter wind in south-east After the phone hacking scandal

there was general agreement in political circles that something

must be done to restrain the press from such behaviour in future. So

far there is no do so -- there is no agreement on what. Prime

Minister rejected Lord Justice Leveson's proposal, the

Conservatives put forward an alternative plan involving a Royal

Charter. Does that go anyway it to satisfy Labour? They backed Lord

Justice Leveson, as did Milly This seems to be running into the

sand. I hope it is not running into the sand. It has been going on for

a long time. Lord Justice Leveson conducted his enquiry for year and

gave his report three months ago. We back the Prime Minister in

setting up the Leveson enquiry and we agreed with him when he said we

should all agreed to implement the enquiry as long as it is not

bonkers. It is clearly sensible. We should get on with it. He has had

second thoughts, hasn't he? I hope he has not had second thoughts and

I hope he is not getting leant on by the press. What happened to

people was absolutely horrible, they were torn apart by the press,

and... It is been dealt with by the police. Unfortunately, it is not

just a question for the criminal justice system because the press

should have their own code of conduct. We are speaking about them

being accountable to the standards they set themselves. We need to

make sure we do not have a problem which has been a problem for

decades, which is that they have a code of conduct that they do not

abide by. Let us speak about what is proposed here. The question is,

given David Cameron has changed tack somewhat, they are suggesting

IPCC plus, with a Royal Charter, does that not sound pretty good?

Because we want all-party agreement, we do not want a political argument

about this. Lord Justice Leveson said it was important we go forward

with all parties agreeing, as have victims of press abuse. We have

bent over backwards to try to reach agreement. We thought the proposal

of having a statute to set it up was sensible. The Conservatives

said they do not agree with that. Why not a royal charter? We will

definitely look at that but it cannot drive a coach and horses

through Lord Justice Leveson's enquiry. It must be delivering the

standards. We are prepared to reach agreement on a but not if it

Watters it down, because the press do not agree with it. -- not if it

will water down. It is time for the Prime Minister to man up, step

forward and do it. Then we will agree with him and supported.

moment on the detail, I mentioned this enhanced Press Complaints

Commission, the look that constantly by a recognition body

set up by royal charter. Why does that not it will make it

sufficiently independent? It could do but you must prevent ministers

tampering with the Royal Charter, established by the Privy Council,

essentially ministers. You must make sure the press cannot lean on

ministers to water it down as it goes along. That is something they

need to address. Also you've got to make sure the press are not

involved in appointing the body that will be auditing them because

that will be the same as we have got there, editors marking their

own homework. There are changes that need to happen in the

government proposals which will bring it up to compliance in

Leveson, we will agree on that. there is no compromise, this will

not happen. We are prepared, instead of going through the

statutory road, looking as a combination of world stature --

Royal Charter and statutory routes. It must be Leveson compliant, and

if you look at it, Parliament is growing impatient. The House of

Lords have voted to put it forward. It would be better to reach

agreement. It is for the Conservatives to take this

opportunity to sort out what has been wrong for decades. We had the

McCanns on a couple weeks ago. They were not happy with what Leveson

was proposing and it looks as though they will not get anywhere

near that. We need a balanced report that protect the victims who

pose no challenge to the freedom of the press. That is what we have to

find it amongst ourselves to implement. None of us would want to

walk a minute in the shoes of these people, the victims, what happened

to them was absolutely terrible, and we have a responsibility and an

opportunity to make sure it does not happen again. They gave

evidence to the Leveson enquiry and that really cost them, do actually

have to expose what happened to them all for again, they did it

because they believed it would bring about change. That is what we

must not fail at. Separately, you are beginning an audit, is this the

right word? Of all the women in public life, business, broadcasting.

There is a new generation of women whose lives are very different to

their parents' lives, in better health, who regard themselves as

being equal to men, and are not happy to be told, sorry, you are

heading up to 60, you must be passed it. In public life that is

very evident, including broadcasting, it is welcome do you

see many young woman blazing a trail, but a kind of disappear out

of sight as soon as they reach their 50s. We do not think that is

acceptable, it wastes talent and expertise, it is discriminatory and

women will not put up with it. You are heading into your prime, you

have 20 years of building up... like to point out and 47! If you

were a woman you would feel you're on borrowed time. On the economy,

this is the big news today, Britain has lost the triple-A rating. There

is a huge debate about whether you spend more, stimulate the economy,

which is the Labour plan, or tackle the deficit and therefore cut. We

argue on that? We recognise the reason why the deficit has not been

going down is because the economy has not been growing. The way to

get growth is a one-nation approach, invest in people, in industry,

infrastructure, at help the economy grow. The trouble is, if George

Osborne does not understand what is going on and will not change course,

people face more years whether our children can ever get a job, moving

out of home, living standards falling back, and really, how many

more signs does he need before he realises that the economic plan has

failed and has made things worse? We were speaking in the paper's

review about the BBC and the Jimmy Savile scandal, the closing chapter

of what has been happening, dying that in with the Lord Rennard issue

at the Lib Dems, different story, do you see of the mayor of the way

big organisations deal with allegations? -- connecting that

with the Lord Rennard issue. I hope as a result of the enquiry is

happening within the BBC the BBC retains its self-confidence, it is

such an important institution, backed by everybody in this country,

and they need to sort out the management and that is a job for

the new director-general together with the chair of the BBC Trust.

There is a feeling of when will we ever learn that if allegations are

made against people in top positions, they must not be swept

under the carpet? They must be investigated, they must be looked

at independently. You cannot have the situation where people are able

to be exploited because the people exploiting them are in senior

positions and therefore the organisation gathers round them

rather than really holds them to account. It is a kind of question

whether we will ever learn, whether it is the church, political parties,

organisations like the BBC. People in power cannot be allowed to abuse

people they are powerless. Obviously I am not making a

judgement about these allegations but they must be investigated. It

must be independent because organisations cannot investigate

$:/STARTFEED. Pope Benedict's decision to abdicate took the

Vatican by surprise. Up to 100,000 people are expected to gather this

morning in St Peter's Square for his final blessing, so who will

fill his shoes? Can the successor Steer the Catholic Church at a time

of division, scandal, and continuing criticism from survivors

of clerical abuse. I am joined now by Cardinal Cormack Murphy O'Connor.

How does it work - Sunday prayers and that is it? A There is a big

audience on Wednesday in the square, then he meets the Cardinals on

Thursday morning. I will be joining them for that. You played a role in

the conclave last time and you will be advising this time. Yes, he is

having his last meeting with the Cardinals on the Thursday morning

and then in the evening he takes a helicopter away. Do you think time

will show his position on different issues were a mistake? No I don't.

The cardinals will not be thinking about those issues, they will be

thinking about what kind of man they want at this present time.

What Cardinal has the spiritual quality necessary? Someone who can

be a bridge maker within the Church and also looking at our very new

world. Look king of the figures for Irish Catholics yesterday - 80%

attended Mass once a week in the 1980s, now what is 30%. -- now it

is 35%. The main change is one of faith in a secular world. The main

thing for the Pope really is to give an example of how the members

of the Church can be strengthened in their faith in Jesus Christ.

me ask about some of the doubts of the cardinals who will be voting.

You will have seen the story about Cardinal Keith O'Brien, allegations

that he made passes at male colleagues several years ago.

obviously I was very sad to hear that. The Cardinal has denied the

allegations so we will have to see how that pounds out. Yes, there

have been other cases which have been a great scandal to the Church

over the past few years and the Church has faced up to some of them

very well indeed. To give you another one - a cardinal who

covered up child abuse by priests and America is insisting on playing

a role in choosing the next Pope, Cardinal Brady. He is a friend of

mine and has tackled the question of child abuse as well as he can,

and it has been tackled in Ireland, and people are becoming more

reassured that the Church, in dealing with this question, is

doing so with a transparent way. We dealt with this issue in England

and Wales over 10 years ago when we set up an inquiry that have very

strict guidelines on how to deal with the allegations. How will the

Church deal with the case of Cardinal Keith O'Brien for example?

I don't know, this will be up to Cardinal Keith O'Brien himself, in

terms of how he faces the allegations. The Church can't

investigate him, and he can't investigate himself, so what will

the Church do? It I think the Cardinal is very close to

retirement and life suspect that his resignation, which is already

with the Pope, then presumably that will be accepted. I think the

Church could say, with the serious allegations hanging over him you

can't play a part in choosing the next Pope, otherwise he will be

doing it. That is up to him to decide. Up to him? Yes, and I think

rightly so. These allegations have not been proved. Won't people look

at that answer and say that is exactly the problem, that the

Church tends to hide people when they get into this situation?

don't think so, nowadays there is a sense of transparency and

allegations made against a person, whatever they are, they are

examined clearly, honestly, and appropriate action is taken. There

will be so with Cardinal Keith O'Brien but we must listen to what

he has to say. The next Pope will have the current Pope living in a

flat round the corner, which could be tricky, and I won't say who is

your money on? Looking at the newspapers, what nationality, quite

frankly I don't know. Anybody could be, even somebody not in the

conclave. Because the runners and riders are quite conservative bunch.

Do you want to hear some different voices in there? I think they

Cardinals know each other, perhaps not as well as they should, and

that will be the task of the first 10 days. People are putting money

on. The Daily Mirror it even had me down as 150-1. I think the fact of

the matter is that the Cardinals are there to discuss together

before God, to make a very some UN decision. When I was at the last

conclave in 2005, going up to put one's vote before the Last Judgment

in the Sistine Chapel was very sombre, very dramatic. I will be

praying that those Cardinals that going to the conclave will make the

right decision. A thank you. For the The Curious Incident of the

Dog in the Night Time was a quote from Sherlock Holmes, and now

perhaps better known as one of the best-selling novels of the last 10

years. Mark Haddon has won numerous awards for this book about a

character who describes himself as a mathematician with some

behavioural difficulties. The novelist says cities a story about

being an outsider, about family relationships and secrets. The

stage adaptation is about to move into the West End in London. I am

joined now by Mark Haddon, the author, and Niamh Cusack who stars

in the production. You resisted the temptation of saying I want to

write this for the stage. It is like a doctor operating on his own

child, your hand is far too shaky. The do feel when you're watching it

for the first time on stage like running on stage and saying which

parts are wrong? The book had almost died for May. It is a

terrible thing to say, I have seen it so many times, I can see the

funny parts and the sad part. When everyone was sitting round I felt

quite tearful because it was like the book was being returned to me.

I could read it again like it was the first time. I like mathematics,

outer space, and being on my own. 343, 512, 729, 1331. For those who

have not read it, which is about three people in the country now,

its central figure is Christopher and everybody thinks he has got

Asperger's but I know that has been problematic for you. I don't want

it to be an issue book. It started with a dog with a fork through it

and I thought it is really funny, but only if you describe it with a

really flat voice. It was about finding a voice that was appealing,

that made you want to carry on reading. Niamh Cusack, what is your

role in the play? I love doing it, my part is she Vaughan,

Christopher's teacher. She starts off as his teacher, but because she

starts reading the book some of the time the -- she is the narrator.

Because she gets Christopher, she is his soulmate. I think at the

beginning of the play, the audience start with one very simple story

and then a lot of other things come into it like the story of the

family. I think because of that my character it is a lot of things -

sometimes his angel, sometimes his soulmate, sometimes the storyteller,

and sometimes the teacher. Does it replaced the narration of

Christopher in the book? A know, we share that. Some of the time, he is

in it, and when he gets to London he is narrating the story and I am

more somebody in his head. describe it as one of the most

challenging parts you have done - why so? Because there are a lot of

different voices, sometimes I am trying to honour his voice,

sometimes I am in his head, and sometimes I am talking to the

audience. I like talking to the audience and you have to in this

part. 10 years on, what do people say about this book? I saw you

speaking recently saying it has become a textbook for the police

have to handle troubled children and so on, and you don't like that?

It's fine. I feel like the book doesn't belong to me any more. The

book feels about 35 years old to me now - sturdy, has a job, lives

somewhere else. I talked to it occasionally but that is it. A mark

has thrown a stone into the lake and there are a lot of ripple

effect and the play is like Simon Stevens, the writer, and the

director, and all of the people involved, the designers, the music,

the actors, they're adding to the ripples and examining them so you

are getting more of the book. the audience come, they also add to

that because it will be owned by them in the theatre. That is the

exciting thing about bringing this book into the theatre because it

will be a very Shared Experience's. You read a book on your own, but in

the theatre it will be a joint venture. Thank you.

It is nearly two years since the government unveiled a radical plan

to get the economy growing. There have been many more initiatives

since and yet in Labour's language the economy has flat lined and the

credit rating agency which downgraded the UK says it expects

the sluggishness to exist for years to come. Are there any new levers

the government can't Paul? The business secretary Vince Cable

joins me now from his home. In the newspapers this story about your

colleague Lord Rennard and the sexual allegations, let's begin

with that. Did you know about these allegations? If absolutely not.

Nick Clegg has also said he was not aware of these allegations until

they appeared on television last week, but we take them very

seriously. It is obviously wrong if there are women who have made

complaints and feel they have not been dealt with properly so we want

an investigative process with an The accounts on Channel 4 had two

women appearing and describing the situation. Worryingly, for your

party, the Chief Whip was told, so we did the allegations go to after

that? The purpose of setting up an enquiry under the party president

and the TV gated is to establish exactly who said what to whom, and

whether these allegations were pursued. -- the party president and

the executives. They relate to the party chairman five to 10 years ago,

it is important that we wait until the investigation has taken place.

It will have an independent element, it is very important that when

complaints are made they are properly investigated. That is what

we will now do. When Lord red card stood down a couple of years ago

citing health reasons, he then came back into the party, but when he

stood down, was there is any part of the reason? -- when Lord red

card stood down was this part of the reason? -- Rennard. As far as I

am concerned he was standing down for issues of health. These

allegations must be looked at. It is not acceptable that we have a

grip of women who are clearly distressed about what happened,

have made complaints and we need to get to the root of that. -- a group

of women. You see this as a serious matter? Of course it is, and we

must take this seriously. We will move on to the AAA rating, does

that matter economically for this Government? It is largely symbolic.

In terms of the economy, there is no reason to downgrade should have

any impact. If you remember last year, the United States was

downgraded, the economy grew strongly relative to Europe.

President Obama was elected. France had a downgrade last year, their

interest rates are only a little bit above virus. These things do

not affect the real economy necessarily, but they reflect the

fact that we're going to do from time. We are balancing the need to

get the budget under control with the need to get back to economic

growth. Getting these things together is tricky. The reason

people think it matters is you kept telling us it matters. George

Osborne said it is absolutely essential we do not have the

downgrade. Finance ministers are bound to be concerned about

anything that affects the confidence in the country, and the

terms on which we borrow, but if we put it in a wider context, the

rating agencies have a pretty bad record. They get some things wrong.

They are part of the background noise we need to take into account.

What we need to focus on is the real economy, getting gross back.

This is difficult because the economy is damaged. -- getting

growth back. We have legacy problems of the deficit, we have an

overhang of debt, trying to move from that to growing the economy is

not easy. There are positive things happening, the figures on

unemployment are reassuring. There is export growth. You are being

hammered in the papers today, the Government is faltering, but the

commentators are split down the middle over whether you need to

splurge to stimulate the economy or whether you need to cut to show the

ratings agencies you are serious about tackling the deficit. Where

do you stand? We need to do two things simultaneously, reduce the

structural deficit, and we have a plan to do that which we will

continue with, and also stimulate the economy and get it growing at

the same time. To embark on a slash-and-burn policy would be

counter-productive, and we will not go there. I am concentrating on the

factors that create real long-term growth, Skill Training, supporting

manufacturing, exports, investing in science. These things matter.

You stimulus so far, the idea of guaranteeing bank lending to

business, does not seem to be working, it is almost two torturous

a process to get the money into the economy. We are dealing with very

badly damaged banks. The legacy consequences have been enormous.

They are withdrawing credit from small and medium-sized companies. I

am creating more diversity and funding for small-scale business,

the government has a lending scheme operating through the Bank of

England. We are trying lots of interventions to get the economy

moving. They are not working. working but slowly, and there are

pressures in the opposite direction. When you have this legacy problem

of an enormous deficit, all the other countries that have been

through this have found it difficult to get it right. There is

a piece in the papers today but says what you must do is not

stimulate the economy in the way you're describing,/the spending to

fund tax cuts, that is what you need to do. -- what you describing,

you must cut the spending to fund tax cuts. He is a right-wing

ideologue. We must have fiscal discipline. We must reduce the

deficit problem, caused by the fact that a large part of revenue which

we used to get from the Bank and the housing market has gone. We

have to reduce that deficit, which we are doing, but we must also

invest in the future and grow, and the prescriptions of Mark

Littlewood are seriously unhelpful. Anyone listening will see if you

are having it both ways. Maybe this sums up the difficulty of your

position. In December, the figures show was the government was

spending about �500 million per day more than it was taking in tax. --

the figures show everybody. depends what the spending is poor.

We need to reduce government current spending, that's what we're

trying to do. I've accepted an example, very large cuts are being

made in my department. We are operating on Li Na resources. That

is necessary. -- less resources. There's lots of investment, in

skills, infrastructure, we must continue that. You have an ally in

Boris Johnson, who says it is time to junk the rhetoric of austerity,

invest in Houses, roads, rail, to get Britain moving again. He says

you have not done it fast enough. He is sitting on the sidelines, he

does not have responsibility for managing this crisis, but we have

to invest in housing, infrastructure, at the same time

managing budget discipline. It is very difficult to achieve, and it

is unprecedented times, historically, Britain has never

experienced at crisis of this kind. It requires lots of patience and

discipline. You have not used the phrase Plan B, you have not spell

that out, it is pretty much more of the same for you and George Osborne,

is it? I have always found this debate about juvenile, what we're

talking about is a different planet. You need to have budget discipline

but you need to have the Government operating in a way that builds

growth. We need to have an agenda of growth at the same time as

fiscal discipline. You launched a plan for growth two years ago, you

signed it, the first point of the plan says, we must create the most

competitive tax system in the G20. Why is your party pushing for a

mansion tax and attacks on jewellery? -- taxing jewellery?

are not arguing for that, we are supporting a mansion tax, it is at

nothing to do with undermining competitiveness. It is taxing

extreme concentration of wealth. We have supported this policy because

it is fair, there are extreme concentrations of wealth, and it is

also a way of taxation that prevents the problem of tax

avoidance. We have an extraordinary anomaly in the council tax system

but if you're in a mansion worth �50 million you pay the same night

of tax in a suburban semi- detached House. -- the same amount of tax. A

large proportion of the public support the mansion tax. We must

get on and do it. Labour have taken the idea and you may have a chance

to vote with them against the Conservatives. Would you do that?

It depends entirely how the motion is phrased when it is put down in

Parliament, we have not got to that stage yet. But you would consider

it? We do not rule it out. It is unlikely the Labour Party would

resist the temptation to play politics with us but we will see

what happens when they put that motion in parliament. Do you want

the coalition to hit the rich more in the Budget? I certainly favour

the idea of fairness. The Liberal Democrats have favoured taking the

tax burden of people at the bottom of the scale, which is why we

emphasise the lifting the tax threshold, effectively it would be

a tax cut for most people. We do think the very wealthiest people in

society could pay more and should pay more, which is why we put

forward the idea of a mansion tax. It is attacked on unproductive

forms of wealth, in a way that deals with serious anomalies. -- it

is attacks. Labour wants to cut tax, National Insurance holidays, at 10

pence tax band, are they going in the right direction? They want to

cut taxes, increase spending, and they talk about reducing borrowing.

It does not add up. They were very popular as in government and did

not deal with the problems of the economy, allowed the banking bubble

to get out of control and left us with this terrible legacy. We will

not be looking to them for economic advice. Thank you for joining us,

Vince Cable. And now the news headlines. The Business Secretary

Vince Cable has said he was absolutely not aware of allegations

of sexual harassment against the former chief executive of the

Liberal Democrats. He warned people not to jump to conclusions. He said

the party was looking into the matter and the investigation would

include an independent component. The chief executive has strongly

denied the allegations. Cardinal Keith O'Brien has been accused of

inappropriate behaviour towards priests in his care. The Observer

newspaper says four people have made official complaints to the

Vatican. The allegations against Cardinal Keith O'Brien date back

more than 30 years. The former Archbishop of Westminster told this

programme Cardinal Keith O'Brien must decide how to respond. He has

denied the claims. That is all for China's live from Southampton, we

will be asking whether there should be a duty to expose wrongdoing. Do