14/04/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

A good morning to you on what we are told will be the warmest day

since last September. Spring has sprung, and last. Plenty for you

this morning, dominated by Baroness Thatcher, as her funeral approaches.

Almost a week after she died, the papers are still crammed with

thoughts, analysis and tributes to The Iron Lady. But there's other

news, too. Joining us to pick through that are Sandi Toksvig,

John Sergeant, the political journalist, and Jane Moore.

The details of Wednesday's funeral for Baroness Thatcher have been

announced. The great and the good will gather inside St Paul's and

the streets outside will be lined with people paying tribute. Others

will be gleefully celebrating her departure. This morning we have a

glance at the Purcell side of the former Prime Minister, including

the secret of her voice. -- the personal side. When you feel

strongly about something, a woman's voice can get shrill. I have been

conscious of this. I try to deal with it by speaking at the back of

my throat. You can lower your voice by speaking at the back of the

throat. We would find out more about the

controversial figure portrayed by Patricia Hodge, when we speak to

the actress about her performance and how she became the Iron Lady.

And we will be hearing from three distinguished figures about

Margaret Thatcher's legacy, Helena Kennedy, Cecil Parkinson, and, as

you can see, our very own Andrew Marr, returning for the first time

since his stroke. A very welcome return to him, too. But it is not

just about Lady Thatcher this morning. An increasing fears of

confrontation involving North Korea and nuclear weapons, the new

American Secretary of State, John Kerry, has been holding talks in

China. America's acting ambassador to Britain, Barbara Stephenson, who

was with John Kerry in London, joins us. First, though, the news.

Details have been published of the funeral service for Lady Thatcher

or Wednesday. Nine people were arrested last night as hundreds

gathered in London to protest against her policies. Supporters of

the former Prime Minister have announced plans to set up a library

as a permanent memorial to her. As preparations continue at St

Paul's Cathedral, more details of Wednesday's service have been

released. Lady Thatcher wanted her funeral to be framed by British

music. There will be well known hymns, and her granddaughter and

the Prime Minister will deliver readings from the Bible.

But as her loved ones and supporters prepared to say goodbye,

their opponents continue to be heard. Last night, in Trafalgar

Square, around 500 people turned up to protest. Some were angry at the

public money being spent on her funeral. Others were there to

condemn her policies. As far as I'm concerned, she is gone. But we

deserve this. I don't think we should respect her because she is

dead, because we did not respect to which was alive. Protests came

after the first public statement from Carol Thatcher, he thanked

those who had shown support. enormous personal thank you who

have sent the messages of sympathy. These have given me strength. But I

know that this is going to be a tough and tearful week, even for

the daughter of the Iron Lady. there are plans for the Iron Lady

to be permanently remembered, a museum, library and educational

centre to be created, a project Lady Thatcher knew about and left

letters of support to. The American Secretary of State has

arrived in Tokyo, where he will hold talks with Japanese ministers

about the nuclear threat from North Korea. This is John Kerry's third

stop on his tour of East Asia. Yesterday, the US and China

resolved to work to stop the tensions in North Korea.

He arrives in the country on high alert. Top of the agenda will be

Japan's near-neighbour, North Korea. It has recently threatened nuclear

attacks against Japan, and it is feared the country is preparing a

missile launch. The Secretary of State will be looking to reassure

Japan of America's support during this crisis. Japan has been taking

precautions. Batteries of Patriot missiles have been set up around

the capital, with orders to shoot down any rocket heading towards

Japanese territory. Warships equipped with interceptors

have also been deployed at sea. John Kerry has just arrived from

Beijing, where the US and China said they both wanted a peaceful

solution to the situation. But officials in Tokyo are worried that

any North Korean missile tests could raise tensions once again in

the region. The London School of Economics is

calling on the BBC to withdraw the next edition of Panorama, claiming

a group of its students were put at risk in making the programme. The

BBC journalists travelled with them to North Korea to film under cover

there. The LSE says it should have been told that the Panorama

reporter, John Sweeney, was going into the country with the students.

The BBC says the students had been warned in advance about the risks

involved and given the opportunity to withdraw. A fifth of complaints

to banks about card accounts not being cleared up to the

satisfaction of customers, according to Which?. A survey

suggesting a quarter have had problems in the last year and said

banks needed to do more to put their customers first. The British

Bankers Association says news are under way to improve the way

complaints are handled. That is all from before now. I will

be back just before 10am. Now back to Sophie.

The UN the front pages today, let me show you a few of them. -- on

the front pages. Parents on measles deaths alert. These are officials

in South Wales, who say they have children in hospital. Scotland on

Sunday, then. Holyrood snub the Thatcher. This is Ennis Pease who

will attack her on the day of her funeral. The Sunday Telegraph, yet

more tribute to Lady Thatcher. These are plans to build a monument

and library as a permanent memorial. Millions face starvation - that is

the Observer. And the Independent on Sunday, they have a bit special

story on Guantanamo Bay - President Obama's shame. The Mail on Sunday,

this is an interview with the British grandmother who is facing

execution in Bali. The Sunday Express, the blustering over cuts

The Sun, Sharon and Ozzy Osbourne. Here with me are Jane Moore, John

Sergeant and Sandi Toksvig. Let's start with Baroness Thatcher. A

huge amount of coverage today. John, are you surprised? I am not

surprised. She had such an effect on my life, so we are all looking

at these things with our own eyes. To me, I think, yes, it will go on

and on, as she did, for so long. It is amazing. I remember Winston

Churchill's funeral. Wants to get out of the front pages, where they

have tried to stay away from Thatcher, now they cannot resist

going through everything. I think that the kip word for it is

hustings. It is a political funeral. Also, some of the details are

intriguing. We have got a former Lieutenant-Colonel in the KGB, who

was invited. And then, who is not going to go? The most intriguing

person is the speaker's wife. It is a snub by her. That is

extraordinary. She wasn't actually invited in her own right. It is

such a nonsensical protest and isn't it? It is a sign, I think a

mark of how seriously she takes herself! Churchill's tributes in

the House of Commons lasted 45 minutes. Mrs Thatcher's went and

Fossett of seven hours. It is astonishing,. -- Mrs Thatcher's

went on six or seven hours. Isn't that just verbal diarrhoea, though?

It is interesting how tribal it has become. Both sides are

mythologising what has happened rather than looking at the facts.

think the other thing is that politics in the 1980s was simpler.

You were for or against Margaret Thatcher. That did the trick. You

would not have to be so concerned about how to reinflate the economy,

or those technical issues of today. John, you have picked out an

article about one commentator's take on this. Andrew Rawnsley is

one of the best. He says that the myths are growing. She was good at

putting forward is this. -- these myths. She was brilliant at

changing these things around very quickly and then telling the story

over and over again. She would have enjoyed the Ferrari. Yes, but she

says she was cautious. In the Telegraph, they are making the

point that she was good at explaining things. Then we have got

the most dramatic headline. I cannot honour Margaret Thatcher -

that is John Prescott. A lot of people are saying they cannot on a

John Prescott! The article is better than the headline. It is a

very thoughtful piece about what went wrong during the Thatcher

years. I can see a lot of people thinking it is OK, I wish they did

not have the headline. What about this woman who wanted privatisation

and a state funeral? That is just what he is saying! Political

journalists, the moment you have got Thatcher into the story,

everybody is going to say, what about this? There's a lot of focus

on the details of the funeral, but also the police and how they are

going to handle it. It is interesting have two newspapers

have a take on the same story. In the Mail on Sunday, the

introduction is, the police commander has provoked outrage by

condoning disrespectful demonstrations planned outside the

ceremony. Meanwhile, on the front of the Observer, it says here,

protesters could be arrested for alarming or distressing people at

the funeral. A police chief has warned. So, two different takes on

it. What it seems to be is that the commander is saying, well, look, we

respect the right to protest, but it could move into criminality, and

then we will act. But this quote says, she was concerned the police

should not make a judgement calls about manners. Some will question

the taste of feudal protests while others will see them as inevitable.

-- funeral protests. That is where we are wrong. The police do not

concern themselves with a man has any more. In my day, the local

policeman would pull the kids up if we were rude. It is the whole

broken windows philosophy. If you don't put people up for the little

things, it can inflate. Maybe I'm just old! For hundreds of

protesters, though, it is tricky. We have no idea how many protesters

there will be for a though. There were 100 yesterday. We have no idea.

A lot of people are uncomfortable, though, about the idea of protests

on the day of a funeral. Thatcher was criticise not for having

empathy, but it would be wrong for the critics to have no empathy on

the day of her funeral. Let me pick up a story you have got. It is a

sharp contrast. Every death is mourned, and this is a 35-year-old

man, and he froze to death in Kent. There has been a tremendous

increase in the number of homeless people who are suffering in this

way. The services are very stretched in places like London,

but it is particularly the smaller towns that the cuts are being felt.

The increase in people buying like this is shocking. This is a tragic

loss, and one should acknowledge him. Jane Moore, a picture you have

I spoke about this at the time, about the police and crime

commissioners. I do not understand the point of them. They will build

up bureaucracy. It turns out that Anne Barnes was quite dismissive of

this will herself some time ago. They will have no additional powers

to the current police are authorities and are wilful waste of

public money. Fast forward a couple of years and she has spent �90,000

of taxpayers' funds to hire a chief-of-staff. Then there is the

youth crime commissioner, at �15,000. And supposedly she has a

�15,000 battle bus. Let's speak about the story which I think a lot

of people will be cheered by. warmer weather is on its way. This

is a man who is a naturalist with the natural Trott -- with the

National Trust. He says that southern migrant birds such as

swallows and house martins should arrive this weekend. He says that

early spring often ends in tears. There is a long record of good

summers following a late springs. hope they're not going to promise

barbecue summers. Look at for the house martins, because they are

wonderful. When I am in London, I live on a boat on the river, and

the sound of the birds is glorious. I am thrilled. That does make you

feel better about life. The Sunday Telegraph, Labour gave cash to

Peking government. I thought I would mention it because with the

coalition getting so much stick about aid to India, it now turns

out that Labour handed over 4.5 million to encourage Russian

ministries to be more efficient and transparent. It sounds like that

money could have been better used for efficiency in our departments.

I love the face of Vladimir Putin. If that happened to David Cameron,

he would think, I cannot possibly look like I would enjoy this, but

Putin looks like, this is marvellous. This looks like another

April 1st story. It is about G4S staff, who we remember from the

Olympics, because they did not turn up at the last minute, now they are

being asked as a private company to help solve murders from the police.

Some of them will be given the job of been in charge of murder

inquiries. I do not think that Miss Marple would approve! One of the

hardest thing about being a policeman is solving crime. We need

someone to do that for us. We cannot do it on our own! 80s

endless nonsense, implying someone else to do your job. A quick look

at the Brighton Marathon today. are runner. I have always felt bad

that I did not be a marathon, and I love about this story that you have

to have the right genes. I have clearly got the sitting down and

having a cup of tea jeans. I wish you would not do it, Sophie, you

worry me. Anyone can do a marathon with a bit of training. In the

Independent, North Korea may be making missiles, but South Korea

are making music. The man who made Gangnam Style, apparently he has

come up with a new dance that looks suspiciously like the old dance. I

have forgotten what it is called. I think it has already had about 1.5

million downloads. John was practising earlier. The Champs will

-- the show will be played out to John dancing. Let's not say

anything on that subject. John, it is a big week ahead, the funeral of

Baroness Thatcher. You were there at the key moment for her in

history. I was there from the moment she became Conservative

leader in 1975. This will be an extraordinary all my yesterday's

for me this week. The problem about politics is to explain some of

these things. She explained them so well. Inevitably people disagreed

with her. It will not bother me if there is disagreement, I have

always like that, and so did she. It is reasonable for her close

friends to say, I it think she would have been disappointed if it

had been a quiet funeral. It is sad to see it around a funeral, but it

is so nice to see political engagement, because it has been a

while. Very quickly, you're back on our screens shortly? Yes, 1001

things you should know. Thank you -- for joining us. Well, at last it

looks as if spring may be on its way. With all the details, over to

Matt Taylor in the weather studio. Good morning. Whether you have the

hazy sunshine today are the driving rain at the moment, the common

theme is a strong wind. But it will be very mild. The driving rain will

go with gale force winds in the West. There are breaks in the rain

band. It will move east through the day but is allowed. We will stay

dry after a few showers in the south-east. The showers could get

lively across western Scotland, with some bright missing between.

In the Moray Firth, we could get 16 degrees. Much of England and

western Wales will see the sunshine developed through the day. The

weather front will be over Wales and South Yorkshire. To the east of

that, he's the sunshine after the showers. It will be the warmest day

since September last year. Driving winds overnight. The south-west of

Scotland will see heavy rain, but that relies on Monday. Monday will

be a story of sunshine and showers. We will be back to proper April

We have seen a great deal of archive footage of Lady Thatcher

over the past week, in full flow in the House of Commons, out

campaigning and defending her policies in countless television

interviews. After she left office, she spoke in much more personal

terms to Sir David Frost, who for many years occupied this Sunday

breakfast time slot. In an interview to mark the publication

in 1995 of her memoir, the Path To Power, she talked to Sir David

about marriage and family, about being a woman in a male dominated

world, and about the upbringing in Grantham which shaped her character

and her approach to life. Never do something just because

other people do it, my father said. Never just follow the crowd, never.

Make-up your own mind what you want to do, and then do it. My goodness,

that was tough, but it stayed with me for the rest of my life. Make-up

your own mind. You say that when Denis asked me to be his wife, I

thought long and hard about it. Was the poor as well you thought about

the question of marriage on the question of Denis? You fall in love

with something -- you fall in love with someone, but there has got to

be something else as well, genuine companionship. You have got to have

generosity towards one another. Home is the centre of your life

when you have a family. It is not the boundary of your experience.

Home is a place where you can always come back and find a welcome.

You say in the book that it was one of the best decisions you ever made.

Were there any others that were as good? It was the one that enabled

all other things to happen. Do not forget, how could I have done

anything without Denis in politics? I could not have done anything in

politics had there been any friction with him. You cannot

choose your parents, but you can choose your children's parents.

Enter Gordon Reece at this point in the proceedings, who you praise for

his contribution, particularly in terms of image and getting the

message across. He had used on hair and the way that you dressed for

example? He knew exactly what needed to be done and that it was

not enough to have the right policies. He said that my hair hand

make-up had to be changed. -- hair and make-up. He then said that you

needed to pay attention to the matter of your voice, which needed

to be Lord? When you feel strongly about something, sometimes a

woman's voice tends to rise. I had been very conscious of this and

tried to deal with it by speaking at the back of my throat. You can

lower your voice by speaking at the back of your throat. This

remarkable lady came along and told me to breathe properly. She told me

to push the voice forward, speak from the forefront of your mouth,

like I am doing now. If you bring the breeding up right, your voice

will lower. I am speaking from the front of my mouth right now. Did he

speaks like a more slowly than you did before? I tend to speak more

slowly because I want to get the point across. You tend to know that

if you're teaching something you have to go more slowly for it to

sink in. I was turned out because I said to Europe, no, no, no. I think

you know, women are better at saying no to some of these things

than men. Why is that? We can keep it tight hand on the purse-strings.

We have to, sometimes. mentioned the nicknames in the book

that you were giving? Which were the memorable ones? The Iron Lady a

lasted. The Russians nicknamed me the Iron Lady. They were quite

right, it is a very good assessment. Does anyone, you Maggie? Yes, quite

a lot of people. I like it. It is a term of infection. -- it is a term

of affection. It is softer than Margaret. Margaret means a pearl.

Would you say that the Conservative Party made a mistake when they got

rid of you? The old girl had her chance and they were going to have

someone else. Who am I to complain? Would things be different if he

were still there? Yes, as different as my personality and the leaves

are from what is going on at present. I had a big majority. I

had been there a living and a half years. Someone said, the old girl

is over the hill, we will get someone else. I was not over the

hill yet. Lady Thatcher speaking to Sir David

Frost back in 1995. Whether it was in the House of Commons, in a tank

or on the world stage, Margaret Thatcher was a supreme performer.

Her character and persona have given several actresses great

opportunities to portray the woman and the leader. Meryl Streep won an

Oscar for The Iron Lady while Lindsay Duncan was praised for her

take on Mrs T as she neared the end of her premiership. Andrea

Riseborough was a memorable young Margaret in The Long Walk To

Finchley. But the first actress to portray Britain's only female Prime

Minister in a leading role was Patricia Hodge who, 11 years ago,

starred in The Falklands Play. It was a controversial account of one

of the pivotal moments in Mrs Thatcher's time at Number 10. I am

going to be talking to Patricia in a moment, but first here is a

He would not enjoy the freedom of speech that he puts to such good

use unless people were prepared to fight for it.

Patricia, well done! What was it like to play Margaret Thatcher?

is a great role, which is why so many of us have done it. It is as

simple as that. You always have to examine the context in which you

are playing the role. The difficulty was that until I played

it matt really, she had been caricatured a lot. Spitting image?

Exactly. There was a lot of reflection before I did it. I spoke

to the producers. I said, Look, if you are looking for an

impersonation, and the wrong person to do this. It was further unlocked

by the fact she was only called Prime Minister in this story. It

was a woman Prime Minister in a difficult situation. That helped me.

But then a strange thing happened. When you get the big hair done and

the power dress, actually, she does begin to take over. The anything -

I kept it as simple as possible, because I was only interested in

how her mind works. How did you go about doing the research, though?

It is an awesome responsibility, always. I did two things. I read

the relevant chapters of her thoughts, and it was her voice that

road that. That was all I had to concern myself with. You can't look

objectively. It is very subjective. I talked to Deniz Blakelock, who

had made a film about her. I got an idea of what she was like away from

the public face. Those were the only two things I carried with me.

It was a controversial play, but it is said that your portrayal showed

a more vulnerable side to her. was a version. There have been many

versions of the Falklands story. In this one, it was from the corridors

of power and how decisions were arrived at. You represent the way

that somebody acts in those situations. There have been plenty

of actresses who have played her. Meryl Streep won an Oscar. Let's

have a look. If the Right Honourable Gentleman

could attend more closely to what I am saying rather than how I am

saying it, he may receive a valuable education in spite of

himself. Fantastic performance. You actually met Margaret Thatcher

after you played her. I'm glad I didn't need her before because I

think that confuses issues. What did she say to you? It was about 18

months later, the person said, Patricia play due in The Falklands

Play. In those moments, you have to find something to say. I said, do

you for give me? She said, I never watch anything that has got me in

it, so there's nothing to forgive you for! So there was no

prickliness? Not at all. She was incredibly pragmatic, in that sense.

Millions of people nowadays know you as Miranda's mother, which is

fantastic. You are also about to go back on stage. Yes, I'm doing a

play called A relative Values. It will be interesting. We are doing

the opening of the summer festival in Bath. What is it like for you,

being back on stage? Is it something that you relish? Theatre

is the centre of us. You learn more three theatre than anything. --

through theatre. You bring it to the screen. President Obama has

made it clear that America will not tolerate any nuclear element to the

threat from North Korea. His Secretary of State, John Kerry, has

been touring Asia this weekend, strengthening alliances and gauging

the mood among Japanese and Chinese leaders. Before he travelled, John

Kerry was in London and held talks with America's acting ambassador to

the UK, Barbara Stephenson. His China the key to defusing the

tension, do you think? China is an important part of it. China has an

important part to play in terms of North Korea's dependence. It is an

important stop that he is making today. It is a very unnerving time,

though, isn't it? Nobody knows what is going to happen next. A lot of

people are expecting a missile launch. Tomorrow is the birth of

North Korea's founder. We are monitoring this close it. I want to

be clear that we have made no change at all suit American

citizens in the Republic of Korea. We have not discourage Americans

from visiting or to take any safety precautions. We are interested in

seeing this rhetoric be ratcheted down. We are monitoring it but we

are not at -- urging Americans to take any special precautions.

it is difficult to know how to handle it, given that the Defence

Intelligence Agency has admitted that they, for the first time,

think of North Korea does actually have a nuclear weapon small enough

to be attached to a missile. I did see the reports. It is not a

consensus view among the American intelligence community. It is just

one of you. We don't have specific indications that there should be

real alarm. The problem is that nobody knows what is going on

inside North Korea. Is this fake belligerence? Is it some kind of

diplomatic blackmail? Or is this real? Again, there's and internal

audience and an external audience. The rhetoric is alarming. But we

are interested in having it ratchet down. John Kerry is saying dialogue

is the way forward. Is that the way to defuse this? We are prepared to

have dialogue if it leads to an eventual agreement on the part of

North Koreans to give up nuclear ambitions. We remain open to

dialogue. But there are conditions for it. The let's talk about gun

control. It has been a big issue in America, particularly since the

shootings in December. Just yesterday, President Obama took an

unusual step and allowed the mother of a very young child who died in

those shootings to take over his weekly radio address. It was an

incredibly moving moment. massacre affected Americans in such

a profound way. I happened to be home right after the massacre

happened. I was moved to tears repeatedly by seeing the signs of

how much this affected people. The President has captured that really

well, to say this is our moment to stop it happening again. Next week

will be a big week on this front. The Senate has agreed to go ahead

with debate. There will be discussion of limiting a sold

weapons, limiting the number of grounds that can go into a magazine.

-- assault weapons. We are looking to get cross partisan support for

early mental-health intervention. It is a big issue that divides

Americans. Debate is one thing. New laws, which is what the mother of

this young child is calling for, is a different thing. There's an

enormous amount of resistance, isn't there, in America. The Second

Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms. It is deeply felt. It is

one of those red-blue issues that defies it -- divides the country.

The President has tried to capture this sense of grief, to say, surely

cull we can do better. It is not just the President. His wife was

trying to do the same. And Harry Reid in the Senate said, let's see

the debate go forward. You can see that it has touched people's lives.

It is the moment to take this issue forward. Here, in Britain, a big

event on Wednesday, Lady Thatcher's funeral. Past presidents have all

been invited. Who is going to be coming? We are still waiting for

the White House to put the finishing touches on the guest list.

We have got a big week in Washington, so we are waiting for

that to come out, and it should be coming any minute. One of the

things that struck me after hearing the news that we had lost Lady

Thatcher was the tributes that poured in from America, from the

White House, from the State Department. A unanimous resolution

was passed by the House of Representatives. It was a reminder

to me again. I had one of those conversations with a senior British

official about whether it was a really special relationship, and as

I watched the response in America to losing her, I realised she is

not as a towering figure in British history, she is part of our history,

too. The idea of, don't go wobbly on me, now, and the lady is not for

turning - they are part of our lexical, too. Given how big a

figure you say she is in America, can we expect big names to come

here? We can expect a lot of interest in the funeral, I can tell

you that. We have been trying to manage the guest list. There's a

lot of talk about Margaret Thatcher's relationship with Ronald

Reagan. Do you think that was it, the high-water? Will we ever see a

relationship like that in the future? I just don't buy it that

the best days of the special relationship are behind us. I have

worked the relationship for 20 years, sometimes very intensely. I

just then last week with secretary Kerry, and we were in intense

conversations with William Hague and the officials. We never stop

the conversation on Syria, Middle East piece, North Korea. ICI two

presidents of the same generation who get along well. -- I see.

you for joining us. In his tribute to Lady Thatcher,

David Cameron says she made Britain great again. Among her achievements,

he cited bringing down inflation, reforming the trade unions and her

leadership during the Falklands war. From all sides in the House of

Commons and the Lords, her courage and conviction and patriot is and

were praised. But for many, there's another side to her legacy as well,

the end of traditional industries, the rift with Europe, resentment in

Scotland. To discuss Lady Thatcher and a pat on the Conservative Party,

the country and the Left in Britain, we have brought together on offer

closes cabinet colleagues, Lord Parkinson, the Labour peer and

human rights like, Baroness Helena Kennedy, and our very own Andrew

Marr, who has described her as the most important, bravest and

latticed Prime Minister in the whole post-war period. -- luckiest.

The welcome to you all, but particularly to you, Andrew.

Thank you for having me, Sophie! Lord Parkinson, David Cameron said

that she did not just lead the country, she saved the country. She

certainly changed it. But saved it? It is not much of an overstatement.

If you look back to the Great Britain we took over in 1979, we

were universally regarded as a basket case. My first job was to go

to Russia to lead the joint Anglo- Soviet Commission. None of the

Russian ministers wanted to meet me. In the end, the trade minister told

me, look, we are not going to buy any more from you. We regard you as

the sick man of Europe. Your goods are shoddy. You are unreliable. We

are planning to do less trade. At the same time, an American fan of

Britain after the devastating phrase, Britain offers a first-

class example of how to run in a fine country. Andrew? Words like

Save and Saviour are odd. They are sort of religious words. There's no

doubt that when she canter of this, things were terrible. I went to

Liverpool, where, famously, the dead were not being buried. The

council had planned to take the corpses to seek and bury them there

because there was nowhere else. It was a desolate time. She changed

the direction of the country. It was not always in ways that she

would look back and approve of. If you said the people free, they are

free to do things you don't want him to do. I think she thought they

would be free to be hard-working and virtuous. In fact, with all of

the restraints removed, we became a country who went shopping for 10

years, stop working so hard and behave in ways that I think she

would personally have disliked. she changed politics enormously,

did she? I think there are a number of myths created. I think one is

about saving the country. I don't believe she did. There's a miss

about her being a role model for women. Breaking through and being

the first woman had a great meaning for people, but she was no friend

to women. I don't understand her saying that. She proved that a

grocer's daughter from Grantham could join the Conservative Party,

allegedly the most highbrow party in the country, and become its

first woman Prime Minister. I remember when she was chosen as

minister. Jim Callaghan said, we have just won the next election.

They just did not believe she had it in her to win an election, let

alone to win three. And that was with, I might say, an increasingly

The range of people available was quite small. The air is absolutely

no doubt that she won through against the odds, and that was

because she was extraordinarily determined and had an incredible

personality. She was ambitious and determined and had great courage. I

would not take that away from her. She did nothing to advance the

condition of ordinary women's lives. She did not like other women. Many

of the women who were around her at that time, who could have been

promoted, said that she did not speak about women. She preferred to

be around men. You were one of his favourites. She was focusing on

getting the economy right because until you did, anything else could

not be afforded. You had to get the economy right and get inflation

under control. Up to 1986, inflation came down from 22 % to

3.7. Do you think those first two Geoffrey Howe budgets, if they had

not happened, would British Industry be configured more or less

as it is now? Yes, I do. One of the industries which is most quoted is

the coal industry. But under Harold Wilson 254 coalmines were closed.

Under the Conservatives, less than 150. Wedgwood Benn closed more or

call minds than I had operating when I went to the Department of

Energy. Please! No one would argue that there had to be a modernising

of the economy. I think it would have happened in any event. If you

had had one of the nicer people in the Conservative Party leading the

party you might have seen modernisation, but there would have

been a different feel. She had his ruthlessness that devastated parts

of the country, particularly the north, because she had no interest

in it. She devastated Scotland and what is happening in Scotland now

is a consequence of Margaret Thatcher's policies. It was a bare-

knuckle fight on both sides. In the 1970s we had price controls, wage

controls, dividend can strolls. -- controls. They all went. She was

very brave to get rid of them, but has anyone ever suggested they

should be reintroduced? No. Here is the woman timid other politicians

looks more, but because she took all those powers away from the

state, no politician today could ever stand up to her. She thought

that big government was a big problem and she set out to reduce

the activities to government would be areas where government should

properly be concerned. There are a number of things that the

Conservative Party today is not acknowledging. One is how divisive

she was. Sue left the public services of this country in squalor.

Schools and universities were in a terrible state. I want you to

answer this question, it was your party who did her reign, you

assassinated her? It was people in my party, it certainly was not me.

One of the reasons that left was that I disapproved very strongly of

the way that cabinet treated her. She once said to me about the

European leader, I will not mention his name, he is a very strange

fellow. He thinks that you read by following. What did she do it on

the night before she resigned? Instead of getting the Cabinet

together and saying that Urals year because I appointed due, she said

to them, tell me what I ought to do. She actually made the mistake of

leading by following. You describe her as someone who is a lucky

politician, courageous and lucky. I would agree with that. She

described major industries. She make people unemployed in massive

numbers and that was paid for by North Sea Isle. When I said lucky,

I was thinking of the Falklands war. It seemed like Labour and the SDP

were going to win that election and she turned things around in that

confrontation. You were going to say that she was very brave to

fight the war. Yes, she was. At that moment, she did it very well,

she decided that if we were going to go to war, the cabinet must be

united. Every single member of the Cabinet was asked, do you support

putting the fleet to see at that Friday evening cabinet meeting.

That is when she became a national figure. And that the perfect piece

of time for -- and perfect timing for the election as well, that was

the luck for her. When I heard that the Argentinians had invaded, I

thought, that is the end of us, but she turned that around. This week

is her funeral on Wednesday. In life she was incredibly devices and

in death, she still lives. What would she have made of all the fuss

about the song in the charts and the strength of feeling that has

been voice and she died? She would not have liked it, I do not think,

but I do not think it would have bothered her at all. As far as she

was concerned, if she was convinced that what she was doing was the

right thing for Britain, she would go ahead and do it. Play the song.

I do not think she would. She would have preferred to watch songs of

Praise. I do not think it would have upset her. When you are as

strong a character as she was, you are going to create divisions. But

I do not mind people disapproving of her, but what I do object to is

the idea that she personally destroyed industries and this and

bad. For David Cameron there is still the problem that he has got

to distance himself from the nasty party tag of the 1990s. Those are

the words of Theresa May. Yes, it is very difficult if you're trying

to believe to the Middle England Liberal vote and that the same time

retain support with your Tory heartlands. That is something that

every Conservative leader wrestles with. She did not deal with it

because she did not try to appeal to the Liberals at all. I do not

think it is true that she created the European divide. I think that

is a divide between the problems of a national democracy on one hand

and being part of a super organisation. Lie at me just ask

you, with the funeral on Wednesday, what do you think that they will be

light? Do you think there will be a real coming together on that day?

am sure there will be. There will be demonstrations and lots of pain

in parts of the country that remember too vividly what it felt

like when they're people were thrown out of their jobs, when she

seemed to relish that. But I think that generally people will still

feel respectful of somebody who was a leader and certainly a leader of

conviction, and a leader of a different order from others. People

will be respect will fat, and I think that is what people feel,

respectful of the kind of person she was. She was a powerful

personality but she led to great deal of division in our society.

Lord Parkinson? One of the joys of being British is that we are free

to demonstrate and show how we feel. If people feel hostile and they

want to express it, I think it is at 80. I think the dead Darren a

special category. The old Latin phrase, de mortuis nil nisi bonum,

of the dead, speak nothing but good, it can be over done. Never the last,

I would hope that people, if they express their disapproval, that

they will do it in an agreeable way. It will not dry line under the

controversy about Margaret Thatcher. Whether it is welfare policy are

the future of the Union with Scotland, lots of the crucial

issues will carry on next year in politics. It will draw a line under

the hasty and the shouting of the last week or 10 days. Thank you to

all of you. Andrew, I must ask you about you. It is wonderful to see

you back here in the studio you should be in. You had his stroke,

what happened? Are I had a major stroke and I am lucky to be alive.

I had been heavily over working in the year before that, my own fault.

I had had two minor strokes that I did not notice, and I did the

terrible thing of believing what I read in the newspapers. The

newspapers were saying that we must take intensive exercise in short

bursts. I gave it everything I had on a rowing machine and afterwards

I had a blinding headache. I went to bed and woke up the next morning

on the floor or unable to move. I had torn the carotid artery. It

wipes out a bit of your brain. In my case, luckily, it was not my

voice or anything like that. It was the left hand side of my body so I

am still not able to walk fluently. I hobble. I have lots of

physiotherapy to do. But you did that on a rowing machine? Beware of

being too enthusiastic on rowing machines would be my message to the

nation. The only way through his intensive physiotherapy. If I

concentrate on the physiotherapy, I will get better, but if I do not, I

will not, which is why I am not back trying to do the job full-time

but the bottom line is that you will be back? I am certainly coming

back when I am ready to do so. I have lots more to say about it all,

but I will wait until I have gone through the physiotherapy until I

am ready to do so. Now over to Bryony Mackenzie for the news

headlines. More details of Baroness Thatcher's

funeral have been released. At her request, the service on Wednesday

will begin and end with music by British composers, and include a

hymn from her Methodist childhood. On this programme, one of her

closest Cabinet colleagues, Lord Parkinson, said he hoped there

would be no disruption. One of the joys of being British is that we

are free to demonstrate and to show how we feel. Never the less, I

would hope that people, if they express their disapproval, will do

it in an agreeable way. The American Secretary of State has

arrived in Tokyo where he will be holding talks with Japanese

ministers about the nuclear threat in North Korea. This is John

Kerry's third stop on his tour of East Asia. Yesterday the US and

China pledged to help resolve the tensions on the Korean peninsula.

That is all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at 12:15pm.

Back to Sophie in a moment, but first a look at what is coming up

on BBC One at 10:15. We are live from Peterborough where we will be

debating the very different reaction to Mrs Thatcher's death

and we will be looking at the Airfix between -- the ethics on the

increasing use of unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, and lastly,

gypsies. I am afraid that is all we have

time for this week. Next Sunday it is the London Marathon, which I

will be running and which also means there is no show. But I will

be back here on BBC One in two weeks' time. My guests will include