14/07/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

allowed to say that? We never really had the subject matter when I was

fronting Panorama or Newsnight. But given yesterday's weather and the

pictures in today's papers, I think I can just about get away with it.

So - phew! - let me tell you what we have for you this morning.

Joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers - Fraser

Nelson, editor of the Spectator, and writer, broadcaster and entrepreneur

Julia Hobsbawm. There's a lot to make you postpone that trip to the

park, or the beach. First, the disturbing case of the poisoning of

Alexander Litvinenko. It happened in London seven years ago but the

coroner has been unable to reach a verdict, because he says he needs

more information from the British government and really a public

enquiry. This morning we ask his widow, Marina - who is trying to

hide the truth about the death of her husband, and why?

And today's slice of British politics is a rather special

interview - we thought we'd waved goodbye to David Miliband, but no,

Andrew Marr himself will find out how much ambition this Labour

politician still has. I have been talking to David

Miliband, former Foreign Secretary, who many people thought would be the

Leader of the Labour Party until he was defeated by his brother in 2010.

Does his departure to America mean the end of one of the longest soap

operas in British political history? Also this morning, we hear from the

two brilliant actors, Toby Stephens and Anna Chancellor, who appear in a

new production of Noel Coward's private Lives, and its particularly

poignant role for Toby Stephens. His parents, Maggie Smith and Robert

Stephens, starred in this play in the West End 40 years ago.

Plus some fine music, right here in the studio. That's Villagers. They

play at the Latitude festival next week, but this morning they are

playing just for you. Before all that, the latest news

from Naga Munchetty. Good morning. Police have been

attacked with petrol bombs in north Belfast, during the second night of

violence over the annual Orange order parade. Trouble flared when

police attempted to enforce a decision to ban a march from passing

the Republican Ardoyne area. The police have found themselves on

the front line in this dispute about parades. They have been attacked

with petrol bombs, bricks and bottles, and for a second night in a

row, the worst trouble has been in north Belfast. At the exact spot

where a contentious march was stopped on Friday night. The police

were enforcing a decision made by others, but they have now become the

target for frustration and anger. For most of the day, protests had

been peaceful. The residents holding banners and flights near the stretch

of road of this dispute. They make decisions that affect the southern

citizens of Northern Ireland. the disputed march near a

nationalist area does raise tensions. Hundreds of officers were

brought to Northern Ireland from elsewhere in the UK ahead of the

12th of July. Ahead of -- after the violence, more have been drafted in.

The politicians have set themselves a Christmas deadline to try to come

up with some sort of solution to the problem of parading. But ask anybody

who lives in these areas and they will tell you that is not going to

be easy. There continue to be appeals for calm, but it is clear

some people just are not listening. At the end of the case that has

highlighted racial tensions, a jury in America has acquitted a Hispanic

neighbourhood watch volunteer for shooting a black teenager. George

Zimmerman shot dead Trayvon Martin in Florida in February last year.

His lawyers successfully argued he was acting in self-defence. A number

of protests have been held since the verdict was announced, and community

leaders have appealed for calm. Vigils have been held to remember

the people killed and injured when a train exploded in Canada a week ago.

Church bells tolled in Lac-Megantic, and other ceremonies took place

across the country. 33 people are known to have died. The train, which

was carrying oil, derailed after rolling down a hill.

Here, a man's body has been recovered from a river in Swindon

after he went swimming on Friday night. John Shailes was found in the

River Ray. It comes after three men drowned in separate incidents in the

West Midlands. There have even warnings for people to avoid

swimming in open water and in disused quarries.

That is all from me for now. Now, time to get back to Jeremy.

Thank you. On the front pages today, let me show you what we have. No

single story dominating. The male has a story about NHS research

showing hundreds have died unnecessarily. Pregnant Zara

Phillips is in lots of the papers, express, Mum's the word for Kate.

Everyone waiting for news of that baby. Scotland on Sunday, Cancer

linked to snacks and sugary drinks. T in the Park festival as well.

Sunday Mirror, schoolgirl on runways arrays and Nelson and Julia

Hobsbawm. Welcome to you both. Julia, start with what ever you

want. It is the NHS. It is a dominant story. This is trailing a

government report coming out on Tuesday, after mid Staffordshire.

The evidence is that Jeremy Hunt, the Health Secretary, is going on

the warfare. 21 hospitals are apparently, according to the Mail on

Sunday, doomed failing regimes. 30,000 patients are at risk. The

weekend is the worst time to go to hospital. So the line they are

taking is that the NHS, which we know is wonderful, is also full of

potholes. You might be one of this 13,000 who falls into one. The big

message is, don't be admitted at the weekend. Yes, death rates are higher

on Saturday than the rest of the week. This is a government report,

not just the papers getting themselves wound up. It is really

interesting that the phrase failed regime has been used by the Health

Secretary to describe these hospitals, and it is not just the

hospitals. The Basildon Hospital, which emerges as the worst, had 20%

higher death rates than the average, but yet was given a good rating. So

it is a hospital failure combines with the watchdog failure. What we

saw at Staffordshire Hospital, which is still shocking the nation, is

replicated in several places up and down the country. At a time where

the money in the NHS doubled, that was obviously not enough. Julia, and

editorial in the Sunday Telegraph. Yes, if the editorial is devoted to

something, it means business. It says that part of the problem is the

sacred status of the NHS cannot look to its own failings until it is too

late. It blames the Labour government for having it is of a NHS

cannot look to its own failings until it is too late. It blames the

Labour government for having gigs that it is hallowed status. Some

some of these hospitals. So it is a serious issue, and I guess action

will follow. There has been a political failing as well. For a

long time, nobody has wanted us to look at failings in the NHS,

politically. David Cameron is a great supporter of the NHS, but now

they have realised, a bit too late, that you really should name and

shame and identify the hospitals failing, and the patients who are

being failed as a result. So a real change of tone is coming from

political consensus. You have Andrew Walmsley in the Observer. Yes, he is

saying that now Ed Miliband has taken his gamble to confront the

unions, saying he doesn't want automatic money going from his

members to his party, if he is going to have a huge shortfall - and

membership of all political parties has fallen in Britain - Andrew

Walmsley is saying the only option they have is to become mass

membership parties again. There is a big question of whether that is

possible, because people just don't join political parties today in the

way that they used to. But I think that if the parties found a cause

that people believed in, membership might surge. Do you think party

membership could ever go back to what it was in the 50s or 60s?

but it is interesting that certain little experiments - in some

constituencies, membership of the Conservative Party has doubled.

Off-line gatherings, you say, which means that people actually meet each

other? Yes. And the fight that Ed Miliband has had with the trade

unions is going to throw a spotlight on the way all parties are funded.

Arguably, they are going to have to connect with the public more,

because the Tories will not have rich donors supporting them, and

Labour will not have the trade unions. And Theresa May? Theresa May

has a great story. After having despatched Abu Qatada back to

Jordan, her next mission is to come up with an anti-slavery law. This is

a important -- an important issue, and I have never understood why

there has not in more fuss in Britain about this. We seem to

accept this as a necessary underbelly of globalisation. But

Theresa May is on campaign after campaign, and her next mission is to

come up with a bill to crackdown on this. There is a lot of things the

UK can do. Theresa May has given it political attention. The paper says

that our kids are told slavery was abolished 200 years ago, but it is

back. What about the next story, Syria? This is a piece in the

Observer by Eddie Isard, the comedian, who is a Unicef Goodwill

Ambassador. What ever you feel about celebrities, you have to suspend

that here. Eddie is highlighting the plight of Syrian children caught up

in the humanitarian crisis in Syria. It is an incredibly powerful

piece. It is interesting, David Miliband's interview with Andrew

Marr. The top -- the main idea, according to Eddie, is that it is

only the humanitarian agencies who are going to help hundreds of

thousands of people who are caught up in these conflicts, at a very

granular level. Having them water, giving them refuge. It is a pitiful

story, and very well told. I am following a tiny bit of the way

these humanitarian agencies are working on the ground, and it is

interesting that they have more power than governments. They are the

ones that going on the front line, that set up the water and the basic

sanitation. The drumbeat for war in Syria is declining. While ago, David

Cameron and William Hague wanted to go in and the suffering. The more

you think about that, the more you think that putting more arms in

their will increase the suffering. So the focus is now turning to what

you can do for the victims, rather than how we can come in on one side

of the Civil War. On the front page of the Independent, is this a

different cure for cancer? Cures for cancer in the paper every so often!

But this one is worth reading. It is a new treatment they have which

identifies the cells. You get an injection of an antibody which will

neutralise the cancer cell. It is less fanciful than it sounds. They

have actually been able to cure some cases of skin cancer in America with

this technology. A British company has now got a contract, selling this

technology. But we are a long way from curing it. It is a good idea to

have a route different to the poisoning of cancer with

chemotherapy. We might finally be getting awesome that -- a more

sophisticated solution. In the Observer, or is it the Telegraph?

She is writing about sexism, interestingly she has a female

editor. Both of them saying pretty much that sexism is rearing its head

but the digital sisterhood, as they put it, is not standing for it.

Obviously there is the John Inverdale Marion Bartoli comment.

This article is about the fact that Judy Murray has effectively been

trolled. The resurgence of feminism means you gentlemen are not getting

away with this stuff any more. The minute anything out of order is

altered, any woman with a following, with a readership, is on it and I'm

basically in favour of that. I would love to discuss that further but I

need to squeeze in one more story. It is not an excuse! This story

about JK Rowling. We know she is breaking from children's novels but

her name is associated with Harry Potter so she thought she would come

up with another name, Robert Galbraith, and she invented this

character who was a former soldier and it was a very well-received

book. The Sunday Times got suspicious and wanted to know more

about who this character was, and after a little more digging they

found out it was JK Rowling who said to the paper I had hoped to keep my

secret longer but you guys have rumbled me. She might have had a

second, or even a third career. we mention this photograph of

Charles Saatchi and Nigella Lawson? The Sunday people is not

everybody's natural port of call on the Sunday, but they got this

photograph of Charles Saatchi with his hands around his wife's's neck,

it was a global scoop, and now they have returned with this story that a

literary editor and columnist for the Spectator, she was seen having

dinner with Charles Saatchi. Thank you, and if you would like to tweet

about any aspect of the programme this morning, you can do. We had hot

weather pretty much around the country yesterday and we want more.

amounts of sunshine, after a cloudy start. The thicker cloud in

Scotland, that will remain, but further south this cloud is set to

be pushed away by the developing westerly wind. That will leave some

bits of cloud and may be an isolated shower in the far south-east, but

most will stay dry and some in the south-east will be warmer. Not quite

as hot as we saw yesterday, 31 Celsius in London's Heathrow, but it

will be more comfortable than in recent days with temperatures in the

mid-20s. More cloud in Northern Ireland, and in Scotland it will

feel warmer than it did yesterday. Tonight, another sultry night with

temperatures in the mid to high teens. More misty cloud developing,

and staying down in the far north of Scotland. We will continue with the

warm sunny story through much of the week. Last Friday the London coroner

examining the death of the Russian agent Alexander Litvinenko head the

government was blocking his call for a full inquiry. The former KGB agent

was poisoned with a radioactive substance in London in 2006. The

substance in London in 2006. The coroner at the inquest argued an

inquiry was necessary because vital secret evidence couldn't be

considered by a normal inquest. His widow says her husband was working

for MI6 at the time of his death and she is desperate to establish the

truth. Was Alexander Litvinenko killed on the orders of the Kremlin?

And is our own government trying to hide something? I am joined now by

Marina, Alexander Litvinenko's widow. Good morning. It looks like

there will be no public inquiry? Friday was a very short session and

you could see the coroner was disappointed. For us, even before,

we were not able to prepare for the session because we didn't know about

the decision of government. death of your husband was 2006, you

are still effectively waiting for an inquest and that is a result of this

being delayed? Yes, in 2006 and 2007 I could say I was more optimistic

because the investigation was done brilliantly and the police were

fantastic. The name of the suspect they got already, and I seek news

from the former government, and there were no political barriers to

investigate this case. Now when I go to the inquest because I realised it

is not possible to have real justice because they have never been

extradited, and when they decide foreign inquest finally I thought I

would see the whole truth, but after two years when I go foreign inquest

they don't have this right. Your husband was also a British citizen,

do you feel the British government is letting you down? I try to say

no, not yet, because I seek British citizenship in 2006 just slightly

before he was poisoned and died. Sasha wanted to protect us, his

family, and we have a right to be in this country. Do you believe the

Russian government was behind his death? It is quite a unique

situation. He was interviewed by police before he died, it was a very

unusual case, he could be able to say what he did before he was

poisoned and he was able to say who could be behind this crime, and

actually it is what our coroner said in his letter. You can find this

information on our website, it is for everybody who wants to know

information about this inquest. you think the UK government is under

pressure from Russia to make sure this never goes anywhere? What kind

of pressure? What would you like to hide? What is the price of this

pressure? I try to understand why the richest government must be

pressured by the Russian government. It could be trade. But what kind of

trade? It is obvious in Russia they were not very happy to have this

inquest, I don't understand it because all publicity in Russia

about this process is put in a very bad way in all reports and all

comments, and I believe it is not too strong for British government

not to get the truth. Do you feel safe yourself, you and your son?

hope everybody feels safe in London, but why I am so... Had to say,

optimistic to get through because it is not only killing my husband, it

was a radioactive material that was used in London and I want to know

how the material was brought to London and help people in London

feel safe after this truth. And you are prepared to keep on fighting?

Yes, because I cannot now move out from this case. It was a long way to

take this decision to go to the inquest, almost five years, and now

I have taken this decision, I just cannot move forward. Thank you for

joining us. Of all Noel Coward's plays that have

stood the test of time, his true masterpiece is Private Lives. A new

production has just opened in London. After eight decades, the

play's comic essence retains its zing. The sparkling wit is undercut

with acid. It centres on two divorcees who embark on second

marriages, only to run into each other on their respective

honeymoons. The unfinished business between the former spouses leads to

fireworks. Anna Chancellor and Toby Stephens play the lead roles of

Amanda and Elyot. I wouldn't have expected you to be celibate during

those five years any more than I was. What?She was a trifle over

vivacious, I would have thought but that is because she is fundamentally

stupid. What do you mean about those five years? You know what I mean,

what is the matter? Be reasonable, I was only trying to stamp out the

memory of you. It doesn't suit women to be promiscuous. It doesn't suit

men for women to be promiscuous. caught up with Toby and Anna on

stage at the same theatre where40 years ago Toby's parents, Maggie

Smith and Robert Stephens, had starred in a famed production of

Private Lives. Before we discussed that, Toby told me how Coward's

comedy contains a hint of melancholy. When I read it, I saw at

the heart of it there was a play that was poignant and sad because it

was about the impossibility of some kinds of love, where chemically one

is incredibly attracted to the other person and also they are very

similar to one another but that is the reason they cannot be together.

It is a cyclical relationship that will never cure itself, it will just

go on and on. Does the hilarity take away from the seriousness to be is

describing? At the base of it, they are these desperate characters that

need each other to feel whole, but of course nobody really completes

another person totally so they are grappling with wanting to feel OK,

looking for the other person to make them feel OK. That will never happen

so it explodes and depletes and explodes again. From my point of

view, Amanda's character is lonely, unfulfilled, and raging. I think if

you keep the rage and desperation at the bottom bubbling away, the jokes

come to keep a lid on it so then you have got the drama. When you came

out with the famous line, "there are some women who must be struck like

gongs" , there was a response from the crowd to say you cannot say

this. When this line came out in the 1970s, I think it was shocking

then, and it is shocking now and that is right. He wrote characters

who are equally likeable and dislikeable. I think both of them,

if you are playing them right, the audience should be charmed by them

at times but appalled by them at other times. In good writing, I

think people save the unsayable, and the audience should say I cannot

believe he said that. I think Noel Coward saw himself as living outside

the rules of society, as a gay man. Your parents played these roles in

1972, you were three? Yes, I was two or three, and it is a weird

coincidence actually. That is not why I wanted to do the play across I

hadn't seen it when they did it, but coincidentally they open this at

this theatre. I am in such a rage. So am I. What shall we do?Whose

yacht is that. The Duke of Westminster probably. I wish I was

on it. So do I. If you start bickering with me, I swear I will

throw you over the edge. Just try it. Ever since I was unlucky enough

to set eyes on new... Will your mother be watching? Yes, she loved

it and she loved it has been released from the oppressive style

thing. Rather than just the characters who speak this way, they

just happen to use this language, I think it had always been seen

through the scrim of style, rather like Oscar Wilde, this crypt, often,

because it is a lot to do with the style of the period and not about

what these characters are driven by. Can you imagine playing Amanda in

front of Maggie Smith? Scary! both have a standout role that

people remember you by, lots of people, and yours is Four Weddings

And A Funeral, and do you mind being called Duck Face? No, I had a dog I

adored called Daphne, I love ducks. Did the role change your life?

I was unemployed for ages. Acting can go so many different ways,

brilliant actors never get a chance. Toby, you were a Bond villain. DWORD

people to stop mentioning it? immensely grateful for it. It was

one of those things where Javier Bardem has played loads of wonderful

film roles, so it is just part of his repertoire. Where is the me, I

hadn't really done anything before. I had done a lot of theatre. Then

suddenly I played this part. That, for a long time, was all anybody

read about me. I would be stopped all the time by people saying, you

are that guy in the Bond films! looked at your forebears on the net.

Apart from being the great-great-granddaughter of a Prime

Minister, Asquith, and great-great-granddaughter of the

12th Earl of Nottingham... As I read it, I thought you are perfectly at

home on the set of this place. a bit posh? Coward wasn't posh

himself. He is sort of parodying posh people. It doesn't go together?

Am I at home and playing it? I feel it is true. I feel at home playing

Coward. Maybe because of my jeans, maybe because of something else. I

feel the language sits in my body. When you say those lines that are so

funny, I think that is me! For a second, I think I am that funny! But

it wasn't me, it was him. Three years ago, delegates at the

Labour conference were waiting to find out the result of an intensely

fought campaign. David Miliband was favourite to replace Gordon Brown,

but in the event, younger brother, Ed Miliband, pipped him to the

prize, thanks to the support of the unions. Since then, David has been

biding his time on the backbenches, that he has now resigned from the

Commons and is moving to New York next week, to head up a big

charity, the International Rescue Committee. Last week, he made a big

speech about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This week, he spoke

frankly to Andrew Marr. David Miliband, it has been a long

time since we talked together, and I suspect it will be a long time until

we talk again. You are moving to the US. For how long? I think it is

probably wise to get on with the new job, which starts the day after

Labor Day, in a few weeks' time, before I start contemplating my jobs

after that. It is nice to be on this set, because I know you have been to

hell and back. Viewers may be pleased to see me, but I think they

will be even more pleased to see you, and I certainly join them in

that pleasure. Thank you very much. Your new charity, the International

Rescue Committee, has a very strange political history, because it was

set up by the leftists from America in the 1950s. You have a family

connection with that. It was set up by Einstein. It was for people

fleeing the Nazis. Today, it has 40,000 staff in 45 of the most

god-awful places in the world, to try and provide homes for people. It

is a charitable endeavour that goes into crisis zones to make a

difference. Set up by Einstein. You were always called the brains! One

thing that struck me looking at International rescue's history, is

that, in recent caves, it has been more associated with the policies of

the CIA. Will you have complete freedom to do everything you want?

can absolutely guarantee you it is a proxy for nobody. Any conspiracy

theories about the CIA this is an independent organisation. It is a

humanitarian organisation. It is in Mali, Mogadishu and Syria. It is

running medical supplies into the most desperately dangerous places,

and it is therefore a simple reason. They need help. This is a charitable

organisation, right down into its core. Turning to your speech on

international affairs, you spoke about two wars. Those in Iraq and

Afghanistan. Talking about Iraq, you said it was a disaster. You do not

use that word, but that is the implication. It is true that Saddam

has gone. It is true that the Kurds are safe. But there are massive

refugee flows and massive destabilisation. Actually, the

International Rescue Committee is in Iraq, helping some of those people

in Afghanistan. There are some profound lessons from both of those

endeavours. Lessons about the centrality of political power

sharing. Lessons about the regional aspect of these conflicts, and

lessons about how mobile jihadist am changes the equation. It is

important we those those lessons that we learned those lessons.

are very good at kicking the door down, but we do not have a good plan

to get out. We won the war, but we didn't win the peace. I think that

is central. It is political power-sharing that is central to the

legitimacy of any government. 2010, you were much more

circumspect. To you and to me, to be fair, you had me on your programmes

and I use the same argument. My position has always been that if we

knew there were no weapons of mass destruction, there wouldn't have

been a war. But the piece was not one. I can remember both in this

studio, and from Pakistan where we did an interview, me going through

exactly the same argument. I do not shy away from that. I was in the

government. I voted for it - I am not running away from that. But we

have to be clear about the consequences. You were clearly very

irritated at the time for people attacking -- for people uploading

your brother for attacking it. Leadership elections are passionate

affairs, but the passion was about rebuilding the Labour Party, and how

you rebuild it as a fighting force that can govern the country. It

wasn't actually a leadership election filled with irritation. It

was extremely brotherly, you might say, among all those involved. It is

important to be open about that. I continue to believe that the choice

that countries like Britain face about how it engages in this much

more complex world are fundamental to our economic future, and we

should have those arguments out. Moving onto the next war, the Afghan

war, you are almost as pessimistic about that. You say there is a

possibility of civil war breaking out, and many more years of violence

ahead. As Foreign Secretary, I was given the instruction to do

everything I could to bring that war to a successful close. The strategy

I had was to argue for a political settlement, advocating talks with

the Taliban, secret and open. From the start of my tenure, arguing for

a regional settlement. The truth is, it is only the imminence of the

withdrawal of NATO forces that has led to anything like the degree of

commitment to that political solution. Anyone looking at

Afghanistan now would say there is not anything like the clarity of

endgame. To all of those people looking at that bloody war that has

cost Britain is so much. Was it worth it? It is certainly worth it

if you are one of the Afghan schoolgirls getting an education. 7

million in school now, less than 1 million before. We have had our

fingers burnt badly in Afghanistan and. You talk about this paralysis

becoming a Civil War. At the moment, the Assad regime on the offensive,

successfully. You suggest time has gone past just putting a few more

arms in. I fear it is too late. I was doing an interview with you 18

months ago, saying the burden of proof is on those who oppose

intervention. Assad is strengthening, the opposition is

splintering. That has happened. Now the debate about arming the

rebels... It is a bit beside the point. The one thing Syria is not

short of is guns. The real truth is, neither side can win. That is what

the stalemate is. The prospect is of a very long-term stalemate, with the

country divided, with sections of the country and training grounds for

global jihadists. What about the crisis in Egypt. Tony Blair has

defended the military crew on the ground that millions want a change

of government. It will appear as if the West's view is that they are in

favour of democracy, until the government is produced that they do

not like. We cannot have the old guard back. It will be a disaster of

huge proportions if Egypt of 2015 is added to Egypt 1954, as a case of

the destruction of democratic government. The people who are

appealing to the argument that the Arab world cannot have a democracy

is Al-Qaeda. That is what they say - do not trust the ballot box. The

entry of political Islam in to politics is a good thing. Political

prisoners need to be released, and genuinely democratic politics need

to be restarted. You would stand shoulder to shoulder with more sea

and the Muslim Brotherhood in this great tactical battle. The real

complexity of this is they've staged their own military -- their own coup

back in September. He put himself above the constitution. That has

precipitated the total collapse of the Egyptian state. 15, 20 million

people on the streets. The key now is whether the Army fulfilled their

initial commitment, which was to restore democracy. Political

prisoners should be released. Morsi should be released as well?

You cannot lock up people in politics, however incompetent they

may have been. And the Muslim Brotherhood giving the right to come

back? They do not have to take responsibility for anything if they

are pushed underground. It is important we recognise that

democracy is about nurturing institutions in civil society, and a

constitution that is acceptable to everyone. You have made two

distinctions between the job of politicians to shape policy, and the

job you are doing now, which is to clear up afterwards. You are still

talking like someone who wants to shape policy. So, how long are you

going to do this job for? Have you got a set term of office? It is not

a fixed term contract. The truth is, I do not know. I am very committed

to the International Rescue Committee, and it is a huge honour

to be appointed president. If you over calculator, you miscalculate,

and I am not going to overcome delay. I am committed to leading

this organisation with real drive and energy, and make sure we save as

many lives as possible. You are not saying that you are leaving Britain

for good? I am not taking out US citizenship! We have roots here,

family, wife, kids... So, similarly, you are not ruling out a return to

British politics? Do not over calculator, because you

miscalculate! I did not think I would be in this position. But I

am. I am excited, engaged. I am sad to go, but I feel like a lucky

person, given what I have been able to contribute. Last time we talked,

you talked about the hurt. Has that healed? Of course. You can never

erase these things from memory or history. Ed and I are brothers for

life. That is something you value and nurture, what ever the

difficulty of that circumstance. that relationship healing?

course. The important thing is we have got to never lead our lives by

looking in the rearview mirror. That is a disaster for anybody, because

it eats you up, and you can't afford to end up eating yourself up with

that kind of struggle. You have got to try and say, yes... There are

people like Andy Murray who come first, and then Djokovic you come

second! Someone has to win. there any point in the last couple

of years where you came close to returning to front-line politics?

Not really. Everything I said was subject to such interrogation, I

felt I wasn't able to do my job as a politician in the way I wanted to.

The last thing I want to do is get in the way of labour's task. I am

Labour to my core. They do not have that party affiliation watching --

running through them, most people watching this. I do. I have always

argued that the Labour Party has got to open out to those not in the

party. I never wanted people to say I was getting in the way of what

Labour needs to do. That was a frustration. We agree to do this

interview months ago, we couldn't have known then there would be this

great furore with the unions. It must feel slightly strange looking

at what your brother has done, confronting the trade unions in this

way, Tony Blair saying it is a pivotal changing point in the

party. How do you feel about this? It is good, obviously. Are you

surprised? I had a sense there was an inevitability about reform and I

will tell you why. Around the world, the old structure of the political

parties are dying and they have to renew themselves by opening up, and

that is the way trade unions renew themselves as well. The more bold

political parties are, the more successful they will be because they

have got to represent the whole country, diverse societies. I think

it is inevitable, and they are going to be thoroughgoing and they need to

be because politics have to catch up. You don't have a wry smile when

you hear about your brother talking about this? User does it feel

strange, it doesn't feel strange, it feels good, and Labour is in a

better position this week than it was last week. One of the things

your brother has been talking about is putting a cap on what MPs are

learning, do you think there is a danger of putting people out of

politics because of the salary? think actually people go into

politics not because of the money but because of what they believe in.

It is true on every side and for the minor parties. You think about the

private sector workers earning more, it might put people off.

constituents want to know that I am fighting for them and that I am

committed to making sure they come first and I think that is what

people want from their politicians. What do you think is the future for

the Labour Party? Have they cut the links with trade unions completely?

They have certainly got to become mass membership parties, that

doesn't mean cutting people, it means bringing people in. Let me

tell you this, when I came into the Labour Party there was a choice

between a sectarian left and in an appealing right, and what has

happened over my 30 years is that the new majority in the Labour Party

which is willing to say we are pro-Europe, pro-public sector

reform, we are the new majority in the party and that fills me with

optimism about the future of the party. That is the majority that

will support Ed's reforms, and it is the majority that in the end is the

right place for centre-left parties to be, it is right we don't become

dogmatic. The success we had in the 1990s was because we had a way of

thinking that was in tune with the modern world. At the moment in the

opinion polls it seems we may be into another period of coalition

government, I'm not saying whether that would be left or right, but do

you think the age of single big majority party governments in this

country is coming to an end? I don't take the conventional wisdom on

this, I think that in the end the British people will take a view and

I think that is a great prize for Labour, but it could be a great

prize for the Tories as well. There is a bit too much mathematics going

on in the way people are looking at the polls, but the polls are

meaningless because they ask how would you vote if there was an

election tomorrow and there isn't an election tomorrow. It is all to play

for, it is open and I don't think anyone on either side should be

banking on the fact it is bound to be a coalition. By leaving British

politics, you end the soap opera of brother against brother, do you

think the soap opera of Blairites and Brownites is over as well?

because a day in government is worth a thousand in opposition. We have

had Roy Hattersley complaining about your comment... We ended up with the

sectarianism of the left that had too much power in the 1980s, that is

not what is going to come back. it is possible you will be back at

some point in the future, you cannot rule that out? Shock horror, David

Miliband says he is not rolling out anything. This is a world with

massive opportunity and massive problems, that is what people want

to talk about. Thank you. David Miliband talking to Andrew Marr on

Friday evening. Now the news headlines. The former Foreign

Secretary David Miliband who was narrowly beaten to the Labour

leadership by his brother has warned his party that although Labour is

ahead in some of the polls, the Tories could win a clear majority in

the next election. He predicted the next government would not be any

form of coalition, and said his departure from Westminster marked

the end of what he called the soap opera of the rivalry between

supporters of Tony Blair and Tony Brown but said he might return to

British politics. Police have been attacked with petrol bombs in

Belfast during the second night of violence in the Orange Order

parades. Trouble flared when the police attempted to enforce the

decision from blocking a march in the Ardoyne area.

That is all from me for now, the next news on BBC One is at midday.

Here is a look at what is coming up after this show. 60 years on from

the crowning of the green, is it time to make the next coronation and

multi-faith ceremony? Agreed to join the donor register and you get

priority if you need a transplant, is that unfair? Our paper reviewers

are still with us, what did you think of the David Miliband

interview, was it a farewell? a great interview but it looks like

the equivalent of putting your party in a time capsule ready to open in

the future. I don't think many Labour people watching that would

have thought, my God, I wish we had that King over the water. It was a

mixture of political cliche and David Brent pop psychology. If he

came back, I think he would be pushed. It is interesting the

candour when you are out, isn't it? Yes, maybe all politicians should

become ex-politicians and then we can hear what they really think.

Finally this morning to the music we promised you. The Villagers are

fronted by singer-songwriter Conor O'Brien. Good morning, and I know

you have been much praised for your songwriting but you had a block and

you chose some new methods of songwriting. Yes, I got more into

computers and experimenting with sounds, but today we are stripping

it back again. It all comes back to the acoustic guitar for you. Yes, I

think so. And you play in a way that you pluck it? You can see how

technical I am! So you are playing Latitude, and what are you doing

now? We are doing a lullaby version of our song called Nothing Arrived.

Sophie Raworth will be back next Sunday morning, and Andrew Marr will

be taking his next big interview before the summer break. Here are

# Savanna scatters and the seabird sings # So why should we fear what

travel brings? # What were we hoping to get out of

this? # Some kind of momentary bliss?

# I waited for something, and something died # So I waited for

nothing, and nothing arrived. # It's our dearest ally, it's our

closest friend # It's our darkest blackout, it's our final end.

# My dear sweet nothing, let's start anew # From here all in is just me

and you # I waited for something and something died # So I waited for

nothing, and nothing arrived # Well I guess it's over, I guess it's