07/07/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

like a day of epic battles - the long stand-off between Abu Qatada

and the British Government is finally over. The outcome of Andy

Murray's quest to become the first British Wimbledon men's champion for

three-quarters of a century will be settled this afternoon. Ed

Miliband's fight to show the union who is boss of the Labour Party.

Well, that one's just beginning. And joining me today for our review of

the Sunday newspapers, the Times columnist Philip Collins, the

musician and broadcaster, Cerys Matthews, and the businessman, boss

of Odeon cinemas, Rupert Gavin. Tennis is all over the front and

back pages today, but of course the other big news is the deportation of

Abu Qatada and the Home Secretary, Theresa May, will be joining us

later in the programme to talk about the ending of this long saga and how

she plans to speed up the deportation process in future.

Also this morning: Labour's under the spotlight with Ed Miliband

at war with his biggest financial backer, the Unite union, over the

selection of parliamentary candidates. Could all this lead to

further reform of the historic links between the party and the union

movement? We'll find out from Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet

Harman. Ed Miliband often says he's a one

nation politician, echoing Disraeli, although the great Victorian

statesman never actually used the phrase as we'll hear from his new

biographer, Douglas Hurd. The former Foreign Secretary will

also be discussing the turmoil in Egypt and the Middle East.

We'll be talking about the tennis, of course, assessing Andy Murray's

hopes with that great champion, Martina Navratilova, who has been

part of the commentary team at Wimbledon. We'll hear her thoughts

on an eventful fortnight. Finally, we have some rather exotic

music to get you moving, this fine summer morning. The unique sound of

The Bombay Royale, from Bollywood via Australia. All that is coming

up, but first the news from Sian Lloyd.

Good morning. The radical cleric Abu Qatada has arrived in Jordan where

he is due to stand trial on terrorism charges. It ends an almost

ten year legal battle by the British Government to deport him. The Home

Secretary, Theresa May, has said the move will be welcomed by the British

public. For Abu Qatada the start of a

journey, for the British Government the end of a problem. It was

midnight when Belmarsh top security jail said goodbye to its most famous

inmate and the convoy carrying him set off across London. Abu Qatada

took his fight to stay in the UK through every court in this country

and on to uranium. It is a new treaty between Britain and his

native Jordan which enabled him to be sent back there. The plane

chartered by the Home Office was waiting for him at RAF Northholt.

Last year, another cleric was put on a plane to the United States. This

case was always going to be more difficult. But now Abu Qatada is

following him on a one way journey out of the UK.

He looked relaxed as he walked to the plane. He leaves behind a

family, and a reputation for playing the legal system. And then, his last

look at country where he has lived for the past 20 years, but much of

that time has been spent in custody. Just before 3am, the man described

as a threat to national security was on his way. As soon as he was in the

air, there was a statement from the Home Secretary saying lessons needed

The Prime Minister welcomed the end of the legal battle to send the

terror suspect back to Jordan. I was delighted. This is something

this Government said it would get done and we have got it done and it

is an issue that made my blood boil that this man who has no right to be

in our country, who is a threat to our country and it took so long and

it was so difficult to deport him, but we've done it. He is back in

Jordan and that's excellent news. Two people have been killed and

dozens more injured when a plane crash-landed at San Francisco

Airport. The Asiana Airlines Boeing 777 was carrying around three

hundred passengers from Seoul in South Korea. The cause of the crash

isn't known. Eyewitnesses say it was clear Asiana Airlines was in trouble

as it approached the airport. It appeared to have been coming in too

short and may have hit the seawall. Awed of a sudden we just heard a

loud boom and within moments, seconds, it was just completely

hidden in a cloud of what seemed to be a combination of smoke and dust.

The plane burst into flames after it hit the ground with dense black

smoke pouring from the jet, many of the passengers were quick to make

their escape. Well, we had arrived on the scene, the chutes had been

deployed and we observed multiple numbers of people coming down the

chutes and walking to safety. 181 people were taken to hospital.

Most suffered minor injuries, but at least 20 are said to be in a

critical condition. The nationalities on board include

Chinese, South Korean and US citizens. Asiana Airlines is South

Korea's largest airline. The company said it would co-operate with

investigators to establish the cause of the crash.

At the time, the weather conditions in San Francisco were good and there

was little wind. The twin engine Boeing 777 has a good safety record

and it is used by many of the major carriers.

is due to rise. A fireball destroyed dozens of buildings in Lac-Megantic

and around 1,000 people had to leave their homes. It is not known what

caused the train to come off the tracks.

Egypt's interim presidency denied reports that it it has appointed

Mohamed ElBaradei as Prime Minister. The announcement came hours after

reports by media that the opposition leader would be sworn in.

The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, says he wants to mend his party's

relationship with the unions, not end it. His comments follow a row

over the selection of a candidate in Falkirk. Labour called in the police

to investigate alleged alleged irregularities. The Unite dismissed

accusations that it tried to pack the selection process with its

members. That's all from me. I will be back just before 10am.

Than thank you very much. Now on the front pages, one man

dominating the front and the back pages, there he is, Andy Murray

prepares for Wimbledon's clash of Titans. The Egyptian army had no

choice but to topple Mohammed Morsi says Tony Blair.

The Unite union tried to oust do youing gles Alexander, that's the --

Douglas Alexander, that's the claim. Economy up, magic weather and Lions

weather and now for Andy is their weather and now for Andy is their

main story. There is lots of coverage, we will

be talking about Ed Miliband. Ed Miliband hit by a crisis of

authority. The Mail on Sunday changed their leads in the middle of

last night. They were leading on the story "church in apology for child

sex abuse" but changed it. This is Saatchi saying "I am divorcing you,

Nigella." Apparently he has begun divorce proceedings.

More coverage of Unite's scheme to unseat the Shadow Foreign Secretary

on the front page there. The Sunday Miron about -- mirror

about Bernie Nolan being laid to about Bernie Nolan being laid to

rest. Let's start with Abu Qatada and he

is about to arrive in Jordan at last. Yes, well, I mean, the papers

have under played this Abu Qatada story because it broke so late and

so it is absent from the front pages when it would have made it. There is

very little about it, but what little commentary, there is a he

piece in the Telegraph, is suggesting this is something that

Theresa May managed to do after years of Labour failing to get Abu

Qatada out. You get a new Home Secretary who has got rid of him and

there is no question this is a really good moment for the

Government and they will play it for all it is worth. It is unfair to say

that one Government failed and another succeeded because the

process is long and complex and this is the combination of it and the

piece is about the prison cell conditions that will await him when

he gets to Jordan and complaining it will be too comfortable for him in

prison and of course, that's the whole point of comfortable

conditions in prison is to demonstrate that he won't be subject

to torture when he gets to Jordan that's been the question at issue

throughout. It is a good moment to see the back of this character.

Extraordinary pictures of Abu Qatada walking on to the plane, a solitary

figure on the tarmac. If Murray wins and Abu Qatada leaves, what a day

for Britain! No, this will be a triumph. A comfort comfortable cell,

but a comfortable style of torture out there. The key message is

getting rid of him. And less money for the lawyers. Well, I know,

because it cost almost �2 million. 1. .7 million of taxpayers money.

But we have observed due process throughout the whole thing which is

important to demonstrate that is what you do and in the end, the

right result has been arrived at. It is a really good story and if David

Cameron had a couple of very, very good weeks. If he hadn't, if you

were in bad odour at the moment Theresa May would be over the place.

I don't think that will happen. But it is a very good moment for the

Home Secretary, there is no question about that.

The Tories are enjoying themselves... I think it is

important you can't lecture the rest of the world on Human Rights without

following the due process here. It is frustrating, but essential for

our position in the world. The Tories must be rubbing their

hands with glee given what has been happening with Ed Miliband and

Unite? This is the story that's dominating the political pages

today. It is an unusual Sunday in. That every single commentator on

politics has done the same column, not just the same subject, but the

same content which is to say this is a big moment for Labour and Ed

Miliband needs to get in front of it and needs to lead and he needs to

escalate this row and demonstrate that he is in charge. Now, the

papers haven't taken the story on very much. We don't know more about

what happened in Falkirk constituency Labour Party an arcane

subject of no interest to most people! It is an illustration of a

sense of leadership and we don't know what happened because the

report hasn't been published and the papers haven't taken it on much.

There are suggestions that if boundary changes had gone through

they were going to try and get rid of Douglas Alexander.

But what a war of words. Len McCluskey raising it up yet again?

Well, Len McCluskey is unequivocal that Unite has done nothing wrong

which is interesting. He is clear that the strategy was to change the

nature of the Labour Party. So it is a clear political argument going on

in here. Ed Miliband replies in The Observer in a fairly vague piece

which is a holding position. He is going to speak on Tuesday to say

more about what he is going to do and furious discussions are going on

within the Labour Party to think what is an appropriate response to

this. They have been bounced into it?

have been bounced into it. That's the bad thing about this. This has

been coming since the moment Ed Miliband won his victory, governed

really by union votes. Now it is foreseeable this was going to happen

and party insiders have been saying for a long time that Tom Watson MP

and Unite have been fixing candidate selections. Now, whether that turns

out to be true or not, we will see in the fullness of time. But this is

not an argument that sprung out of nowhere.

If you want to pick that fight, you want to pick it yourself? He should

have picked it a long time ago and then he would have the reputation

for the man who changed the relationship. Now if he achieves

that, it will look as if he was bounced into it? I voted for Ed in

anticipation that he was the guy who qo get to this moment -- who would

get to this moment. I'm disappointed it has taken this long. It is hard

for him, in that Labour relies on the Unite money. Of it really does

-- it really does. To pay the wages you need the cheques. With the

absence of money from elsewhere, it is hard.

Let's move on to the other stories. I know you wanted to talk about this

one. Of There are important fights going on, but it is interesting The

Mail on Sunday devoted its front page and the inside pages as well to

Charles Saatchi infortunatelying Nigella that -- informing Nigella

that he is divorcing her. You discover he has written an open

letter and published that to the papers and he discloses he hasn't

told Nigella. This is another twist in this sorry tale. It is our

priority to give it three pages. This is very much his side of the

story only that we are hearing? is his side of the story and she is

not being given any opportunity to put her position. If there is any

learning, anything good from this, it will be another deterrent for

smoking because if they weren't smokers and I have seen them sitting

at that table time and time out... They wouldn't have been

photographed... None of this would be happening! It is a another good

advertisement of the periles of smoking!

In the Sunday Times - do you take this man's names? I don't. It is

comparing statistics of women who are deciding not to change their

name when they marry, which leads on from this. In the modern world, how

many marriages end in divorce? You can quite likely have a child with

your first marriage and a child with the second. You end up with

different with different surnames. If you keep your name and maybe take

your man's as a middle name as your -- your man's middle name. Your

children will then end up with the same name. It ends up with

double-barrelled name. And paper work. I know one particular friend

who wanted to get rid of her surname entirely. She didn't want her former

husband's name and didn't want her original name and wanted to call

herself one name. Legally you cannot. I'm not sure many people

know that. Prince didn't. Legally you have to have two names. The next

story about the economy, things looking up? I think once again this

is the most important story of the whole weekend, not that it gets a

human amount of coverage. IMF are now, we are about to, during the

course of this week, backtrack what had been a slightly negative view

recently downgrading our growth prospects, now to agree with the

Treasury that an upgrade is necessary. It has hinted this may go

up to around 1% growth for this year. Not a phenomenal number but

completely different from some of the doom and gloom we used to

expect. I think that is remarkably good news. They are talking about a

fourth quarter which could see growth rates going up to 2%. So,

early signs that the UK economy is recovering. You have a story about

George Osborne. Yes, just as a corrective to all this talk of

politics. It is worth your remind yourself that the most important

political fact is that nobody knows what we are talking about, probably

including us. Very reassuring.It showed pictures of George Osborne to

people on the street and said - do you know who this man is? Everyone

was confident. They said - yes, it's that one out of Little Britain. Some

thought it was a newsreader. One person said - isn't it Nick Clegg.

And to put the tin on it, somebody thought he was Ed Balls. Nobody

knows who he is. Even the President of the United States got him mixed

up. He said Jeffrey.You have to be aware, most political questions

don't cut through to the public. It is a big issue in this union row for

Labour. This might be one that does get through in a way, but must most

of the time, most people are not watching. It is music season.

it is upon us. You are formering at the Proms Yes, it is really

interesting and there is a big article in the independent about the

Proms. -- in the Independent. We have the children's story, the Bear

Hunt. It is a fantastic musical festival.

And there is a concert for the sitar. And the Orchestra will be

interesting, it is all about improvisation, and the classical

tradition is this it is written down. It is the same day that sap

six Music hit the late-night problems with the Stranglers, and

Laura marring. I will go for them Laura marring. I will go for them

over Wagner. It has been said - he had great moments but terrible

quarter hours. We cannot look at the papers without mentioning the man of

the moment, we hope, Andy Murray, all over the place. Yes, he will be

on court this afternoon. I will be there cheering him on. Could this be

the epic moment that bren gets its first -- Britain gets its first

Wimbledon winner since "36? It will be a tough challenge. I watched

Novak Djokovic on Friday. He had a five-hour semi. He has done that

five-hour semi. He has done that before. And he was up against Del

Potro, who felt he had nothing to lose. An extraordinary match.And

Del Potro played out of his skin. The worry is so much pressure on

Andy Murray, that that is an inhibitor to him. Let's hope he does

it and let's hope as a result, Britain reevaluates its appreciation

of tennis. I have a theory that you cannot be a number one cricketing

nation as well as a number one tennis nation. The skills are too

similar. It is very telling that over the last 40 years, cricketing

nations have only produced two Wimbledon men's winners. A lot of be

facts and figures there Let's face it. The Serbian cricketing team are

not very good. In which case, what is Andy Murray doing playing tennis?

He should be playing in the Ashes. He should be playing in the Ashes.

You have to chose. You can't be successful in every sport

simultaneous. We will soak up the Wimbledon flavour. Thank you all for

joining me this morning. All eyes obviously in Wimbledon this

afternoon, so where else could we go for the latest weather? Here is

I thought we would have other good facts and figures with possibly the

hottest men's final. At the moment it looks close but not equally the

hottest we have seen in the ground. It is sisling here already and the

sun is beating down. -- sizzling. There is sunshine just about

everywhere in the UK. We lose out a little in southern Scotland and

Northern Ireland. There is a lot of cloud here. The cloud will thin and

break so they should pick up sunny spells. For the far north of

Scotland clearer skies than yesterday but cool. Temperatures in

Aberdeen perhaps 14 or 15. Further south, once the cloud breaks in

southern Scotland and Northern Ireland, 22 or 23. As for England

and Wales, temperatures soaring and potential highs across parts of the

Midlands and southern he can land of 29 or 30. It is already -- southern

England. It is already hot in Centre Court. This afternoon we could get

close to 29 or 30. High levels of UV, so sun screen all round and high

pollen. Into next week, the dry weather set to continue. More

sunshine to come. It looks like things will get cooler by the time

we move into the middle of the week The weather is looking good. What

about the prospects for the big match this afternoon, the men's

singles final between the world number one and number two, Novak

Djokovic and Andy Murray. Both had to fight their way through their

semifinals and it looks like they could be facing another epic contest

who. Better to discuss their prospects than one of Wimbledon's

greatest champions, nine times winner of the women's trophy. , ?

Can Andy Murray do it? Absolutely. I have been saying it for years. I had

a coach who played in Barcelona with him. He said - watch out for him. He

said he was going to be great. He said he would be cocky. He is not

cocky. He is such a perfectionist. I think now the public have got to

know him they have warmed up to him. He was so surly on the court but now

he is relaxed and playing great tennis. They were very important

moments last year, he lost the final and a few weeks later and he won and

there were tears on Centre Court after he lost the final and this is'

when the public's attitude switched. -- that's when The public attitude

changed and the pressure was off after he lost to Roger Federer, eyes

on him. Now he is part of this whole British team. I think that took the

pressure off him. And he was able to come back right after Wimbledon and

win. That set him up for the US Open where he beat Novak Djokovic in five

sets. And, now, that sets him up, I think for today. He has already been

in the final, which is very helpful for anybody. He has beaten Djokovic

last year on the Olympics semifinal on that court. Two out of three.

There is a history between these two guys. They have similar style. I

expect somebody to win in five sets. I don't think they can win in three

or four, they are so evenly matched. Djokovic is playing fantastic

tennis. He said himself, it is some of his best tennis. A formidable per

performance. Before the semifinals, I would have said Djokovic all the

way. But Del Potro got to him and forced him into errors. But of

course, Del Potro plays differently from Andy. But there is a little

chink. Everybody has a chink in their armour. We think everybody is

unbeatable but look what happened to Serena Williams? It is the beauty of

tennis. You think you are so nervous. The other guy is nervous,

too. If it is windy, it is windy on the other side. We internalise

everything but the other guy is feeling it too. Nobody is perfect.

Every match is winnable. It is going to be a cracker. It has been an

extraordinary fortnight. You have been doing some of the commentary.

You would never have expected some of the great shocks, Nadal, Federer,

and Serena Williams going out when they did. It was a crazy Wednesday.

I have never seen a Grand Slam day ever like that. I hope I never do

again. A lot of players got injured. Hopefully they will not be long

injuries. It looked like Del Potro was out after he slipped and hurt

his knee. He ended up in the semifinals. You never know in this

day and age. I don't ever want to see a day like that. In the final

yesterday, poor Sabine Lisicki, she had done so well all the way to the

final but you really saw the nerves and the impact - you have been there

and done it and know what it is like. I didn't know you were

supposed to lose your first final. I was so excited to play my first one.

I was down in the third set and ended up winning. It is something

you work for your whole life. I sat next to Ann Jones during the match.

Everybody saying - it is just a continue Is match but now it is the

Wimbledon final, it is not just a tennis match. -- tennis match. You

never know how you can handle T I think the guys have easier times

handling nerves. They get away with the big serve. The very first toss,

Sabine hits a ball up and she had to catch it. I said - oh boy. When the

toss goes off, it is hard to recover from that. And Bartoli played so

well. She was crying in the middle of a match You are so embarrassed

you want to get off the court. Statement you still think you can

win, maybe, how. She did get back into the match. It was good that she

finally started playing the way she did leading up to it. But kudos to

Fabien Barthez. -- kudos to Marion Bartoli.

She was hitting the heck out of the ball yesterday.

Very quickly, you said handy Murray, he can do it. What about Laura

Robson? She did well. There were a couple of things that Laura needs to

do. I would also talk it Andy and see how he deals with the pressure.

-- talk to andy. He has done a beautiful job with it. There is the

X Factor, you never know what is going to ha. Laura has the game. She

really wants it. You can't teach height. She is tall enough. She has

a beautiful game. A heavy ball. know you will be heading there this

afternoon. What a wonderful afternoon. I hope you are right as

well. Thank you very much. Now, Benjamin Disraeli was the most

dazzling politician of the Victorian era. He could fill a dictionary of

quotations. Many of his most famous saying have passed into our every

day language. On becoming Prime Minister, he said he had climbed to

the top of the greasy pole. And, of course, it was disdis, who observed

that everyone likes flattery and when it comes to royalty you should

lay it on with a trowel. -- it was Benjamin Disraeli. He never actually

used the phrase One Nation politics. Douglas Hurd has written a new

biography of Benjamin Disraeli and is with me now. So he never even

used this phrase. We searched everywhere thinking he must have

done. He never did. It was used by Stanley Baldwin who was Conservative

Prime Minister in 1924. He coined the phrase One Nation. Disdis --

Benjamin Disraeli talk talked about the theory but he never got around

to calling it One Nation and he didn't believe in it himself. He

loved the cheerful life. He loved the company of Duchesses and

marvellous meals. He was a pleasure seeker. Why does it get attributed

to him? Some people attract quotations like a magnate. Churchill

did. But he has only 25, I think, it is, quotations in the Oxford Book of

sqap quotation, where -- book of Quotations, whereas Benjamin

Disraeli has 88. Why did they attribute that idea to him? Because

he used which theedy remarks. Someone thinks of it and pushes it

on to him. That's the way you get on to him. That's the way you get

currency. He has been hailed asted One Nation Conservative, but what

does that mean? It means you believe that people in one class should

behave descently to people in another and then it goes on to think

that the classes will fuse. Disraeli was clear the classes would not

fuse. He believed in ard aristocracy and lived happily alongside them,

but wasn't part of them. He didn't believe in fusing something which

couldn't be fused. But now Ed Miliband is using it, isn't he?

Well, you say even Ed Miliband. He is badly advised. He shouldn't use

it. It is not his phrase, it is Disraeli's phrase.

It is picked up and quoted by politicians and Prime Ministers,

this even came into the bankers bonus row, didn't it? It is used for

all kinds of purposes and some are legitimate and some aren't.

You say the myth began on his death and the myth became mightier than

the man. Why did that happen? April 189 -- 1881. There is a great

funeral. Everybody goes except the Queen and Gladstone who is the Prime

Minister. Gladstone makes up some excuse about pressure of work.

That's bogus. He didn't want to go there because he would be in the

news just for the wrong reasons. The Queen was determined not to go to

the funeral, but to pay tribute to the man... She was devastated,

wasn't she? She was devastated. She wrote that weekend to Disraeli's

the death toll is likely to rise after a train carrying crude oil

derailed and partly destroyed a derailed and partly destroyed a

small town. -- She picked on the primrose and that became a part of

the myth. You said his legacy was not

political, but personal. It was about the popular touch and that's

perhaps some people say missing in modern day politics. Would you say

somebody like Boris Johnson, is he a modern day Disraeli? Yes, he

supplies something which is otherwise bad lilacing which is the

sense of fun in -- badly lacking which is the sense of fun in

politics. Disraeli didn't laugh at his own jokes. That's a habit Boris

still has. I must ask you about the story in

one of the papers saying Tony Blair said that the Egyptian military was

right to intervene. You know, you were a very, very experienced he

Foreign Secretary and you dealt with all kinds of things for many and

would you agree the military was right? Tony Blair leaps in before he

thought things through. We know that already. He has done it again on

this. The seizure of power by the military, what they did, the day

before yesterday was the second act in a drama which is going to go on

and on and on. The drama of modern Egypt. Can it be ruled? Can it be

successful? We have a long way to go. We don't know yet. We won't know

for weeks or months how whether the military gambling on seizing power

made a good gamble or bad? Sf think it will be a long time before

democracy will be restored? I think it will be a long time. We need to

keep our heads and not to rush to judgement. Tony Blair is someone who

rushes to judgement. And what do Britain and America do?

Do you stand back and watch and not get involved? You become involved.

You have to work with the people who are in power. That's something that

Foreign Secretaries learn. You don't have to like the guy, but you have

to work with him if he is the effective ruler of country X. So you

grit your teeth and you work with him. You have to do that all the

time. We shouldn't go out of our way to clap our hands and say "that's

marvellous" as Tony Blair has done. We should keep our counsel, and keep

our wits about us and wait for the last act of the drama which maybe

some years away. Thank you very much.

Could Labour's relationship with the trade unions be at a cross-roads?

That's the speculation following claims that the powerful Unite union

tried to rig the selection of Labour's candidate to fight the

Falkirk seat at the next general election. Ed Miliband is accused of

being slow to grip the problem because Unite is such a big donor to

the Labour Party and supported him for the leadership. But now a war of

words has broken out between him and Unite's leader, Len McCluskey. I'm

joined now by Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. What are the

allegations because we don't know? Some members of the party have been

suspended. The selection of Labour's candidate in the general election

for Falkirk has been suspended. The scheme which proved to be vulnerable

to abuse has been ended and therefore, what Ed Miliband has done

is stepped in and put the situation back on track. But what happened?

What are the allegations? Are we talking about fraud? This has been

handed to the police. You think something criminal has taken place?

There was an investigation after complaints that the membership

system was being abused in order to favour a candidate to get selected

in Falkirk. That was investigated. The party then suspended two people

as a result of that. But then on it being reviewed by the party's

solicitor, it was considered that this should be investigated by the

police as to the question of criminal actions and you know, we

all want to see those of us who are in the Labour Party, we want to see

the voice of ordinary working people heard in the corridors of power.

That's fundamental, but the way to do that is not to have abuse of the

membership system or indeed, to have a membership system which leaves

itself open to abuse. That's why the scheme has been ended.

As you well know and Len McCluskey has been vocal in saying, he says

today in the papers they were would working within the rules to get a,

woulding class candidate selected and he dismissed your investigation

and he accused that of being shoddy. Let's be clear, you are adamant that

there is possibility some criminal activity that's taken place? ?

he is wrong to say the investigation did not turn up allegations without

foundation. That's wrong and actually just as if there was'

breach of the rules within his union, his members would expect him

to ensure that the rules were obeyed and the integrity of the union

upheld. If there is allegations of membership breach in the Labour

Party the duty of the leader and this is what Ed Miliband is doing,

is upholding the rules and you know, Len McCluskey should be supporting

Ed to support the integrity of the rules of the party, not simply

saying "well, these allegations I'm going to sweep them aside" these

investigations have been done by party staff on behalf of the party

and that's what, you know, that's what's going to happen. There is not

a war of words on this, what there is is determined action by Ed

Miliband to change the system and to deal with the abuses of the system.

The case of Falkirk for you, are you sure this is an isolated case or

could this be more widespread? Are you looking into other

constituencies? Well, if you look at the figures which we have done

Falkirk is the first time that there was an attempt at mass recruitment

of membership and irregularities. So actually... And you are sure about

that? Most of the union membership joins were like one person

constituencies, so it is where there has been a group. This is the one

where there is a problem. The scheme was open to abuse. It was abused in

Falkirk. That's why members have been suspended. That's why the

police have been called in. What about other constituencies? There

was this leaked document from Unite's political director saying

you night has plans for another 40 constituencies. Are you looking into

those? The union join scheme has been ended because it was Falkirk

showed it was vulnerable to abuse. The ones they have already had

selections, we are not concerned that the scheme has been abused

because you only have to look at the numbers to be clear that's the case.

Of Falkirk, there was abuse. That action has been taken on that, but

if I can just explain because I think you know there is no doubt

that we want to have proper processes for the selection of the

candidates. There is no doubt about that. Not abuse of the membership

system, but a lot of people don't understand that actually the

relationship between the trade unions and the Labour Party, it is

important that actually we hear the voice of people at work in our

public policy making and I will just give you one example. Yesterday, I

was in Leicester at the East Midlands conference and it there was

a woman from the Shopworkers Union. She was talking to me about the

things called small hours contract where people are on contracts of

three hours a week in a twilight world between employment and

unemployment. It is the unions, the voice of people at work that brings

those issues... I want to talk about the unions in a minute. I want to be

specific with the other constituencies. Have you taken

control, central control of any other of those? Well, there are a

number of constituencies where for different reasons issues are being

looked into, but as far as the union join... Since last week?Oh no,

since previous to that. But this is the union join problem and this has

been dealt with, but also... what kind of issues? What are the

issues? Ed Miliband is saying we need to have further reform in the

selection process. For example, we need to have a cap on expenditure in

selection processes because we want to have a situation where ordinary

-- an ordinary person can get selected to stand for Parliament or

to stand for a position in the party without having to have financial

backing either because they are independently wealthy or because

they are backed by a trade union and therefore, the question of capping

spending in elections, whether or not it is for MP or for leader or

deputy leader, you see I actually was not backed by unions to be

deputy leader of the Labour Party, but I had to get a second mortgage.

Now, most people are not in a position where they can do that and

that's unfair. So we need to open the system up so you don't have to

have financial backing either from the unions or to be able to use your

own resources in order to be able to stand for selection in the Labour

Party. What about the political levy? What

about making that opt-in rather than an opt-out system? That presumably

would weaken, dilute the power of the union bosses? Well, actually if

you think of selection. Selections are one member, one vote anyway for

Parliamentary selections and therefore, the question of

affiliation is not the I shall be uin Parliamentary selections.

but I mean the political levy, that's important, isn't it? That

could be a step where you, because the crux of this now, you have got

this great public spat between your leader and the unions and it is a

battle for pouier? No, it is -- power? No, it is no the a great

public spat. There is a public argument about Unite and Ed Miliband

and ewe knight and Falkirk and Ed Miliband is right that he is

upholding the rules. There won't be any argument, the rules will be

upheld, but the relationship between the unions and the Labour Party are

important for reasons as I have said, the voice is of people at

work, having their voice heard in the corridors of power, but we have

to modernise the system and that's why Ed will be bringing forward

proposals like a cap on spending so it is opened up to ordinary people.

We think that the relationship between people at work, in ordinary

workplaces, who are having a really hard time at the moment and the

Labour Party, it keeps us in touch and that's why we are on people's

side locally, but we are opposed to abuse of the rules and that is what

happened and nobody should be backing that.

Ed Miliband is going to have to do more than cap spending isn't he? He

is going to have to do something more dramatic to show people he is

in charge. He is going to talk about this this week. Anything more? What

options is he looking at? He is looking at the rules and working out

how best they should be and this is, you know, this is not about

posturing. This is base clay about ensuring, I mean -- basically, about

ensuring, I mean this issue in Falkirk was not sought out by Ed so

he could do posturing on it. It was a wrongdoing and he stepped in and

he is saying... He was brought into this by the Conservatives?

that's not true. This came out of nowhere in Prime

Minister's Questions, they were talking about education and all of a

sudden they are talking about the unions? The process had been

suspended long before David Cameron raised it. Also, an investigation

had been set-up long before David Cameron raised it. So Ed Miliband

and the party had stepped in so David Cameron might decide to give

himself the credit, but no, that process was already underway. The

review was underway. The selection process had been suspended so that's

not right. Ed Miliband's leadership, ifs at a

cross-roads, isn't it? There is a crisis going on at the moment. At

the end of this, are we going to see a significant change in Labour's

relations with the trade unions? Yes, I think things like a cap on

spending will be a significant change for the right reasons. But I

don't think... That's not going to be enough, is it? Well, I think it

is important that nobody is able to be ruled out of a contest because

they can't get financial backing from a union or have their own

independent funds. You can't have your leader being

pushed about in the papers as he is today and there is a war of words

that's going on because you are just going to leave yourselves open to

this Tory jibe that we heard a lot of last week that your leader is

weak? He is not. He has stepped in and taken the action necessary and

he is going to take further action to make sure that we keep that link,

with people at work, and make sure we are in touch with ordinary

people's lives but we also have clear rules to make sure that those

rules are not abused. Harriet Harman, thank you very much.

Now the deportation of Abu Qatada is something of a personal triumph for

the Home Secretary, Theresa May, after years of legal wrangling. More

than �1. 5 million of public money has been spent on the case and in

the end his deportation was only made possible after she negotiated a

special treaty with Jordan. The treaty guarantees that evidence

gained by torture will not be used against him. To talk about this in

more detail I'm joined by the Home Secretary. You weren't sure whether

he was going to be leaving until right up until the very last minute,

last night, were you? That's right. There was a possibility, up to the

last minute, of further legal challenge. I'm very pleased, having

been clear all along that we wanted to deport, Abu Qatada, that it was

important that he was not in the UK but back in Jordan it face charges

there and we have been able to achieve that. -- to face charges.

This has gone through six Home Secretaries, you have got him on

that plane. Your thoughts as he left? I was very pleased that we

were actually able to finally achieve the deportation of Abu

Qatada. As you say, it has taken a long time. We need to look and we

will be looking at the processes we go through here in the UK on such

deportation and on the Immigration Bill I'm bring forward changes to

the number of appeals people can make. Most people were deeply

frustrated by how long it took, I was and I know the Prime Minister

was, and we want it make sure in future, it can be done more quickly.

He achieves in Jordan this morning. Are you confident he will be treated

as he should be. He arrives in Jordan. Yes, I am. If you look over

the time I have been dealing with this case, we did receive assurances

Jordanian Government. The European Court of human right moved the

goalposts, so we had to deal with that. We got further assurances from

the Jordanian Government and last autumn the courts here in the UK

noted a final issue about whether or not evidence that it was alleged had

been obtained by torture would be used in the case against him. The

treaty was been negotiated. I signed the in March. It was ratified by

both parliaments, fully came into force at the beginning of this

month. Putting all that together that provides, I believe the

assurance about how he can be treated. �2 million spent on this,

almost a decade and six Home Secretaries. It has been an

extraordinary battle for you personally. What lessons have you

taken away from this? I think the first is when you want to achieve

something, keep at it. I think it has been determination to ensure

that we could deport Abu Qatada that has enabled us to overcome the legal

hurdles put in the way and see him removed from the United Kingdom. So,

you have to be prepared that sometimes these are lengthy

processes but that if you are determined, you can get there in the

end. The other lesson is one I mentioned earlier. We have to look

at how we do these things. Thats' why in the immigration bill --

that's why, in the Immigration skal bill be bringing changes forward

about how you deal with appeals processes in the UK? What will it

mean? Looking at reducing the number of appeals available to people.

There is another issue we have to look at, which is longer term, is

the relationship with the UK and the European Court of Human Rights. We

are starting work on that. I think nothing should be off the table in

terms of that. Let's look at that in a moment. First of all, in the short

term, before the next election, obviously you have the problem of

the Liberal Democrats and you have been talking about leaving the Human

Rights Act, for example, that is not going to happen whilst you are in

power, in coalition, but in the short term, can you be confident

that you can stop these long-drawnout appeals. Can you do

anything significant that will enable you to stop the scenario we

have seen going through the courts in recent years? I believe we can.

This is why I'm saying actually in primary legislation in a new

Immigration Bill we will make changes which will make it quicker

to deport people from the UK. We have been looking elsewhere and

seeing what other countries could do. We know we can make some changes

here in the UK for cases like these and for the other sorts of cases

which people read about in the papers, where they see somebody has

perhaps claimed this right to so-called Article 8, the right to a

private or family life and we will be making changes in the Immigration

Bill to deal with that issue as well. Surely you can make the

changes, you changed the rules last summer, the immigration rules, that

then judges - there was some room for manoeuvre and it hasn't been as

effective as you would have hoped. You can make the changes but people

can still appeal to the European Court of Human Rights? They have

that appeal to the European Court. You are right, I made changes to the

immigration rules on this right to a family life last summer. But, some

of the cases have not seen the interpretation of those rules being

what I'd hoped and expected it would be. That's why I'm going to bring it

forward nool primary legislation, bring it forward into an immigration

bill later this year. I will also be looking at the appeals processes to

ensure that we can assure that in cases like Abu Qatada's, we would be

able to see people being deported more quickly than in future. In the

long term, after the legs election, if you are in power -- after the

next election, if you have a majority Government, are you going

to promise to scrap the Human Rights Act and withdraw from the European

Court of Human Rights. I have been clear that we should repeal the

human rights at and look at the European Convention on Human Rights.

As the Prime Minister said this morning, the Conservative manifesto

will set out clearly what we will do in Government, in relation to both

issues. I think nothing should be off the table but we need to do that

work and then come forward. You have some colleagues who have their own

reservations? The work has to be done. We have to look at what is

right and what will work. One of the other things I have taken from the

whole issue of dealing with Abu Qatada, is we need to ensure that

anything, any changes you make are actually going to work, because

that's what we want to be able to do. We want to be able to deport

people who are a threat to this country, people who should not be

here in the UK. We want to be able to see them removed, as we have with

Abu Qatada. If you scrap the Human Rights Act, what would it be

replaced with? The last election, as Conservatives, we went into the

election with a commitment to replace it with the British bill of

rights. We've had the commission looking at a British bill of rights

and further work needs to be done on that. This is an issue this many

people feel does need to be addressed and the next Conservative

manifesto, leading up to the next election, we will set out clearly

what we believe we should be doing. The point of the Human Rights Act is

to take the power away from the populist mass agenda, the

politicians, as well and actually look at all these cases in a clear

light. I know Abu Qatada has used the system but there are people who

perhaps wouldn't be protected if the politicians had a greater say. No,

it is not about the politicians necessary having a greater say. It

is about the laws of the United Kingdom being made in our

Parliament. We need to ensure that, yes, of course we protect human

rights and this country has a fine record in relation to the protection

of human rights. We need to make sure when there is somebody in this

country who is dangerous and when there is somebody in this country

who poses a threat to this country, that we are able to remove them from

the UK. That's what we have been able to do, following much work, we

have been able to doe that with Abu Qatada. I'm pleased he is now in

Jordan. He will be facing charges in Jordan. That was the right thing to

do. We need to make sure we can do it more quickly in few toour.

Prime Minister said he would be -- in future. The Prime Minister said

he would be the happiest man around if you saw Abu Qatada on a plane

today? Is that how you feel? Auto em' very pleased. A lot of work has

gone into it. Our security minister went there our ambassador and hem

office officials have worked hard. There are a lot of people today

who's hard work has played off. I think most people in this country

will be very pleased and say - thank goodness, Abu Qatada is now in

Jordan. How many more cases of a similar kind are still going through

the courts at the moment? Are you having to deal with all kinds of

appeals for similar cases that people would be probably furious

about? Well, there are always cases going through where people are

appealing on different grounds, against their - against us stopping

them from being in the United Kingdom, be that deportation of

foreign national offenders, for example. That's why it is very

important that we are doing what we are going to do this autumn,

bringing forward a new imGriggs bill which will address -- immigration

bill to address the concerns and hurdles where we can't remove people

as quickly as we can. You will have a fit on your hands to get it

through. -- a fight. If you said to members of the public - should the

Government change the law to make it easier to deport people who are a

threat to this country? I think the vast majority would say yes.

terms of... I hope when it comes to Parliament it will be reflected in

the views that Members of Parliament take. Absolutely. The one coalition

partner you will have to convince is the Liberal Democrats, isn't it?

have agreement across the Coalition Government that we will be bringing

forward the immigration bill and that this will be part of it.

Now back to Sian for the news headlines.

The radical cleric, Abu Qatada, has been deported to Jordan overnight.

He arrived back in his homeland this morning, where he will stand trial

on terrorism charges. It ends an almost ten-year legal battle by the

British Government to deport him. Speaking to the BBC earlier, the

Prime Minister welcomed the news. was absolutely delighted. I mean

this is something this Government said it would get done and we have

got it done. And it's an issue, like the rest of the country, that has

made my blood boil, that this man, who has no right to be in our

country, who is a threat to oir country and it took so much and was

so difficult to deport him. -- our country. We have done T excellent

news. The Home Secretary confirmed on this programme that she hopes

rules will be changed so that deportations happen more quickly.

Theresa May said the Government will be looking to alter processions,

including reducing the number of appeals that can be made before a

deportation order is issued. The Labour Leader, Ed Miliband, says he

wants to mend his party's relationship with the unions, not

end T his comments follow a row over the election of a candidate in

Falkirk. Labour have called in the police to investigate alleged

irregularities. The Unite union dismissed accusations that it tried

to pack the selection with its members. Harriet Harman earlier on

this programme said further reform of the selection process was needed

and the party would be recommending the introduction of new rules,

including a cap on spending by candidates. That's all for now. The

next it news on BBC One is just after midday. Back to Sophie in a

moment but first a look at what is coming up after the show.

Should child sex offenders be given tougher sentences, or do they

deserve a chance to reform? With the benefits cap on the horizon, are the

poor being demonised, and does marrying outside your faith damage

religion? Well, that's all we have time for today. Thanks to all my

guests. Jeremy Vine will be here next Sunday. His programme will

include a special interview by Andrew Marr. Andrew will be talking

exclusively to the former Foreign Secretary, David Miliband.

We live you with the Bombay royal. They are from Melbourne. They were