06/10/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. There has always been a vital, if unspoken, rule in

British politics - don't, whatever you do, provoke the Daily Mail. They

will have your most priceless assets off with a single bite. Ed

Miliband, livid about the paper's agog, because the timing is

extraordinary. This week a committee will decide whether to impose

newspaper regulation. Will a single headline, the man who hated Britain,

change Britain for good? The row has gone on for days and is bubbling

away merrily in the Sunday papers as well, and to help pull back the

curtains on what is going on, I'm joined by a trio of shrewd on

servers. Journalist and bestselling writer Robert Harris, another

journalist-novelist, Jane Moore from the Sun, and Labour's Tom Watson,

scourge of newspaper proprietors. We are back on home turf in our regular

studio this morning after three weeks away at the party conferences,

and very interesting they were, too. The general election is now in

sight, and all the parties are beginning to stake out their ground,

and some real differences have opened up. Defying the pollsters,

the Conservatives now think they can win a majority, and apart from

economic recovery, tougher policies on welfare and immigration are a big

part of their pitch. We will hear more on that from the Home

Secretary, Theresa May, as she sets out plans for dealing with foreign

criminals and illegal immigrants. Will her promise to scrap the Human

Rights Act reassured traditionalists tempted by UKIP? Interesting,

because its success is a big threat to Conservative hopes. Nigel Farage

is here with me as well. Is his party, after a bit of a Horlicks of

a conference, ready for the national stage? Also this morning, a new film

about middle age and marriage set in Paris, actors Lindsay Duncan and Jim

Broadbent reflect on Le Week-End. And staying with the

French-speaking, the delightful singer Zaz will be singing live for

us at the end of the show. All of that coming up, but first the

news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. American special

news with Naga Munchetty. forces have carried out two separate

raids in Africa targeting senior forces have carried out two separate

Islamist militants. In Libya, US commandos captured an Al-Qaeda

leader accused of the 1998 bombings of American embassies in ten and

Tanzania. The leader of the Al-Shabab group was targeted in

southern Somalia, but that raid appears to have failed. The man is

suspected of being involved in appears to have failed. The man is

month's attack in the Westgate shopping centre in Nairobi, which

left at least 67 people dead. America has struck against one on

the list of its most wanted terrorists. They have already

offered $5 million for information leading to the capture of Anas

al-Liby, a 49-year-old senior Al-Qaeda figure. He is wanted in

connection with the bombings of the US embassies in East Africa in

1998. More than 200 people died after twin bombs exploded at

American missions in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam. Yesterday morning, a team

of US commandos snatched him from the streets of Tripoli. A relative

said he was returning from morning prayers when his car was

surrounded. The Pentagon said he was now in lawful custody in a secure

location outside Libya. Hours earlier, that same morning, US

location outside Libya. Hours special forces had been in action in

Somalia. A team of Navy SEALs approached the coastal town of ORR

Way by speedboat before dawn. Their target was a senior Al-Shabab

commander. A spokesman for the Somali Islamist group said they had

repulsed the attack after a gun battle. Reports suggested the

Americans were to abort the mission before they could capture their man.

US officials were quoted as saying the Somali operation was carried out

in response to the attack two weeks ago on the Westgate shopping centre

in Nairobi. More than 60 people were killed during a four-day siege with

ended with the partial collapse of the building. Al-Shabab said it

carried out the attack in retaliation for Kenya's military

intervention in Somalia. These American raids underline fears in

the US and elsewhere that Al-Shabab could try to replicate its

operations further afield. More than 50 people have been killed

and at least 100 injured in an attack in Iraq. Pilgrims were

targeted as they walked to a shrine in the capital, Baghdad. 40 more

people were killed in separate attacks elsewhere. Iraq has seen a

sharp rise in sectarian violence in recent months.

Or than half of English schools are failing to provide pupils with an

adequate religious education, according to inspectors. A report

from Ofsted highlights each teaching and confusion about the purpose of

the subject. It says students are being left with little knowledge or

understanding of different faiths. Do you think science will explain

all the miracles honour? Ofsted says religious education should provide a

deeper understanding of the nature, diversity and impact of religion in

the world. This Manchester school says it takes the subject seriously.

It is about keeping it current. If I just pull out a load of Bibles every

lesson, it is going to become samey, it is going to be like a boring

lesson, so it is about staying on top of the news and putting it into

a context they have seen themselves. But inspectors say that after its

visits to 185 schools over a three-year period they found six out

of ten were not realising the full potential of the subject. Their

report said that many pupils leave school with scant subject knowledge

and understanding. Teaching in primary schools was not good enough

because of weaknesses in teachers' understanding of the subject. GCSE

teaching often failed in the core aim of an enquiring, critical and

reflective approach to religion. Ofsted urged the Government to

consider removing the power of schools to decide the quantity and

quality of religious education. It blamed the English baccalaureate or

marginalising RE by ignoring the subject. A senior official said that

it is not good enough when religion and belief play such a profound part

in the day's world. Former Cabinet minister Andrew

Mitchell has said that accusations that he called a police officer a

pleb have taken a considerable toll on his family. The MP denied the

claim but resigned as chief whip after the scandal list September.

Eight people, including five police officers, have been bailed in

relation to the incident. The CPS said it will now decide whether to

bring charges. They should not conceal that it has

been an extraordinarily difficult year and is a very considerable toll

on my family and on me, but I have been getting on with looking after

my constituents in Sutton Coldfield, and I would like to express my deep

gratitude to them and to my many friends who have given me such

trenchant support throughout this difficult time.

A leading Conservative backbench MP has said he will try to force the

government to hold an early vote on whether Britain should leave the

European Union. Writing in a Sunday newspaper, Adam Afriyie has

questioned the Prime Minister's promise to hold a referendum after

the next general election, suggesting the public thought it was

the next general election, a delaying tactic.

That is all from me for now, I will be back with the headlines just

before ten o'clock. Now, that Sunday newspaper you are

hearing about is the Mail on Sunday, there is the front page, Prime

Minister panicked as Tories bid to quit EU next year. It is an

interesting story, we will be talking about it, one of the more

substantive stories. There are not that many in the papers today. The

Sunday Times, however, has an interesting one, Andy Burnham, the

health opposition spokesman, is suing Jeremy Hunt for libel after

eight weeks. This is quite extraordinary on lots of levels -

politicians do not normally sue each other, it can be very expensive, and

it is about Twitter. We will be talking about that later. We have a

story about Malala Yousafzai being invited to the palace by the Queen,

she is going to be interviewed by us next week, and she may be about to

get the Nobel Peace Prize, the youngest ever recipient. The

Observer has a story criticising the Daily Mail, and the Sunday

Telegraph, perhaps for the first time and certainly not the last, has

a story criticising the BBC! To talk about all of the stories and joined

by Robert Harris, Jane Moore and Tom Watson. Timing is everything in

politics, Andrew, and this week, after the Daily Mail has problem we

had its worst ever week, on Wednesday the privy Council is going

to discuss the proposals to reform the media, and the Independent has a

very good piece over pages eight and nine explaining what is on offer

there. All the series newspapers and leaders expressing a degree of worry

about whether the Daily Mail story will contaminate the decision. Yes,

I do not think it will. I think it diminishes the authorities of Paul

Dacre, who were steadfastly opposed to Parliamentary reform, but I do

not think it. Ministers trying to do the right thing, and there is

probably a battle royale brewing over this. There are very few issues

where all three of the main party leaders are united on an issue,

where all three of the main party parliament unanimously supported it

in both houses, and the press barons to finally said, we are not

accepting your reforms. You are on the media committee and have had a

real go at Rupert Murdoch and things, so do you think that press

regulation will be rejected by the politicians. I think it probably

will, but I don't know - I am not on that committee - and four me there

are little quirks in the press model that would enable them to keep

control over the process. They want to be able to appoint people to the

panels that make decisions. When you think that the current arrangements

are Paul Dacre chairing an ethics committee of the PCC, people will

realise we need to move on. It has been a really bizarre week, and

there is a certain amount of crawling over the ashes here. It is

a very interesting one, because I completely get why Ed Miliband

defended his father, I think we all would have done it in the same

situation, I think the headline was pejorative. But they gave her right

of reply, and to quote Ed Miliband himself, after the rather unseemly

Damian McBride revelations, I think it is time to move on, I think he

said. We are not like that anymore, blah blah blah, but that does not

seem to apply here, and I think that the battle has been taken up

politically is being run with for the reasons... What Tom Watson was

talking about. Yes, but Peter Hitchens, in the Mail on Sunday,

anyone would know he is quite right wing if they read his column... A

patriotic Conservative Christian, I think he describes unsolved

exclamation when I was 17, I was a Trotskyist, he says, but he has just

basically... His father was never a Marxist or Trotskyist. If you read

that bees, you might think it. He says here, but after he has had

brushes with the press himself, he says he is still completely in

favour of a rough edged, untamed press, because in my journey from

Karl Marx to the Mail on Sunday, via Moscow and quite a few other places,

Karl Marx to the Mail on Sunday, via I have learned to love liberty with

my whole heart and you cannot have that without an change newspapers. I

would say the Mail on Sunday clearly made a big mistake, sending a

reporter to the memorial of Ed Miliband's uncle, but they

capitulated immediately and apologise. To be fair, they thought

it was a public event, they got it wrong. It is almost like social

media are regulating the press, the Daily Mail have had such a pounding

over this that you think it is almost regulation in itself. The

Twitter storm has been amazing, Robert, you have chosen not the most

impressive front page that the Observer has ever produced for us on

the same theme. Daily Mail setting poor example to children, says top

end. I call no story dead until a newspaper has to trot out a public

school headmaster and a bishop to newspaper has to trot out a public

keep it going! I must say, this is quite funny, the master of

Wellington College has said the Daily Mail is setting a poor example

to children, and the Bishop of Bradford has also joined in. The

last piece I read by him was in the Daily Mail! This is when the story

is coming to an end, we both remember from our days in the trade,

and I think Anthony Seldon should look at the motto of the man whose

Wellington College is named after, publish and be dammed! I think I

sort of agree with you, it will be a sorry day if the press is regulated,

but though the present arrangement may be, and I think you're right -

the Daily Mail has taken a hell of a claw grip. -- clobbering. The PM in

a panic, this is the Mail on Sunday, the front page, so they are saying

that Adam Afriyie is going to amend legislation... Tory backbenchers

trying to bring forward the referendum which the Prime Minister

has promised after the election to next year, quite dramatic. I do not

want to add to his panic, but I would probably support Adam Afriyie

with this amendment. I thought, he would not have the votes for it,

Labour will not support it, the Lib Dems, a minority of Tories would. I

think a lot of people on both sides of the house think need we clarity

on this now. The country has asked for it for a long time, business is

saying there is a lot of for it for a long time, business is

uncertainty, and parties have to draw up their manifestoes for the 20

15th general election, and they will be very different, depending on the

outcome of a referendum. We have got European elections next year. Could

you see Ed Miliband coming towards a referendum on this? He has kept his

options open, he could take that decision at a later date, but it

would be down to him and Douglas Alexander. Now I am on the

backbenches, I might supported. It is the sort of game changing move

Ed Miliband could make, and if I were the Labour leader I would say

that in 1975 we gave the people a referendum, we are not afraid of

doing that on this issue, and we should do it. Would it be good

strategy? He might lose the referendum. If that is what the

people of Britain want, they have a right to let their voices be heard.

Personally I think that once the combined weight of the media,

business and party leaders get together, the vote will be to remain

business and party leaders get in Europe with some degree of

negotiation, personally, but I think it is all to gain for the Labour

leader, certainly politically, in going for this. Nick Clegg is

terrified of that prospect. James, let's turn to another big political

story. The Mail on Sunday, secrets of the new FBI, a new 450 million

story. The Mail on Sunday, secrets national crime agency announced by

Theresa May. It says 5000 strong elite force, Keith Bristow the first

director-general has gone all Hollywood on us - I want criminals

to fear coming to our attention. I want the bottom to drop out of their

world when they get arrested. They are going to be an elite squad that

target this dark web of murky unregulated area of the Internet

used by criminals. Does anybody know what the dark web is? The murky

corners of the Internet. The areas of the Internet not searched by

search engines. But again, this is very high end stuff and I keep

whining on about it but I am all for more broken Windows policies as well

which stops them eventually becoming criminal masterminds. Tom Watson, we

need to talk about the Sunday Times, this strange but interesting story.

It could be the first Twitter libel trial involving Andy Burnham and

Jeremy Hunt. It is about a tweet we cannot read because it is presumably

libellous. Yes, to do with Andy's record for secretary of state for

health, and Andy has had enough. Is this the new mood in the Labour

Party to be more aggressive and bullish about criticism from the

media? I think people have got higher expectations of Jeremy Hunt.

To accuse... Nobody goes into higher expectations of Jeremy Hunt.

politics to want to cover up mistakes in the health service and

it was a bit of a blow but it leaves the prospects of Lynton Crosby being

in court having to explain their strategy for health. You are almost

salivating! It would be very revealing. Hasn't Jeremy Hunt

refused to take it down? Yes, this could go all the way. We could have

half the Cabinet and the shadow cabinet in the dock. We have one

more story, and then we need to talk about your book, which is why you

are here, let's be honest! I suppose the most appalling for an story is

the drowning of 300 migrants coming into Sicily. Awful pictures. Yes,

having been rude to the Observer earlier, they had a very good double

page on it and it is just appalling. The trail from Africa across to

Libya, get on the boat run by the Mafia, tried desperately to land in

Europe and you realise what globalisation means to the poorest

people. In Libya, the chaos that has been forced after the Western

intervention which we have all congratulate ourselves on deserves

looking at because there appears to be a humanitarian disaster there as

well. The choke has this -- is this little island. It is more important

than Ralph Miller band and the Daily Mail, I think. And you have a broad

more story? Yes, I was intrigued by this in the Independent on Sunday,

Tony maiden, former head of the severe personality disorder unit

says that many people including Peter Sutcliffe should no longer be

there. He said he is no longer acutely mentally ill. How you

determine that about a man who murdered 13 women, I don't know, but

he said a lot of patients who are there should be back in normal

prison which would be a hell of a lot cheaper. I don't understand...

Psychopaths tend to be quite canny so how you judge how anyone is OK to

come out of this mentally secure unit, I don't know. This is the

beginning of the political season but also the beginning of the book

selling season. Explain, this tradition of books coming out now

before Christmas. Yes, most books are sold into the run-up to

Christmas. I think on each day something like 1800 titles are

published, jostling to get ahead, I am one of the lemmings in this race.

And Helen Fielding with Bridget Jones gets her first review today.

Yes, so she is going over the top as well, poor thing, and some critics

will be waiting to mow her down. Your lemming is a French lemming.

Yes, a novel about the Dreyfus affair and it is narrated from the

point of view of the head of the French secret intelligence service

who exposed the fact Dreyfus had been framed it is probably still the

greatest miscarriage of justice and cover-up there has ever been so I'd

tell the story in a fictional voice. It is difficult to get

stories which are shocking enough dosh -- real-life politics is so

shocking. Yes, there are secret trials, a cover-up, an intelligence

service out of control. Any organisation is reluctant to admit

their mistakes and I thought this would be a way of casting light on

this quite difficult to understand scandal and also to shine a light on

the present day. You haven't given the title. No, it is called Bridget

Jones. Too cruel. An Officer And A Spy. Let's find out what is in store

for the week ahead in the weather forecast.

Spy. Let's find out what is in store for the week ahead in the Indian

summer or not, it will be the stuff of memories because our weather is

taking a turn for the colder. There will be a chilly start in

England and Wales, but the mist and fog patches will slowly clear. The

damp start with some outbreaks of rain, although it brightens up in

the north of Scotland and becomes quite warm here. We still have some

of that rain in Dumfries and Galloway, pushing into Cumbria.

Elsewhere you have some mist and fog picking up, and you get that

sunshine and warmth, 20 degrees could be yours. More cloud around in

Cornwall into south Devon, but elsewhere the best of the sunshine

in Wales and the further east you are we may see the cloud breaking up

in Snowdonia, the brighter skies further north and still on the one

side here as well. Tomorrow, some wet weather pushing further south

from Scotland. It will be feeling colder in the strengthening

northerly wind. Nigel Farage possibly enjoyed the

Conservative party conference this year, more than at his own. In

Manchester last week, he made several well-publicised appearances

on the fringe. But UKIP's gathering was overshadowed by the troublesome

MEP Godfrey Bloom - whose remarks about women who don't clean behind

the fridge can't be repeated here. Yesterday, Mr Bloom, now suspended,

hit back - ''If you see me with a pint of bitter, it's not a

photocall. Nigel has lost touch. Poor Nigel.'' Really? Under Mr

Farage, UKIP's become a force to be reckoned with in British politics -

but can the party at large survive the intense scrutiny of a general

election campaign? Well, Nigel is with me - good morning. You seem to

lead a party of colourful individualists, not easy to herd and

the question is whether you can keep them onside when you crack the whip

as well. I think we were a vehicle in which people could give vent to

their views, and over the last 18 months we have changed. We are party

that is taking elections seriously and to do that you need some

discipline. That doesn't mean we won't push the boundaries of

argument. It does mean that we don't need people causing massive

distraction. Does it mean you have to kowtow to the Liberal media? I'm

sure some things were said that you have to be pretending to be outraged

about. It means we have to focus on our key messages. We are challenging

the media and the political class on big issues like immigration, we are

not here trying to win friends amongst the liberal elite but we are

trying to focus on policies and Godfrey's problem was he kept making

comments about women. In Nigel Farage world, what should be done to

deal with immigration right now? Theresa May this morning in the

Sunday Times is saying she will deport foreign criminals, can she

say what she is going to do about Romanian criminals? And the fact we

are opening up the door next year to more foreign Romanian criminals? I

am challenging them and saying, are you prepared to do anything? Do you

feel we cannot do anything while we are part of the European structure?

Is a member of the European Union, we cannot control our own borders

and when the referendum comes I think that will be the central

issue. So the Conservatives can only go so far without dealing with this

issue. You are plugged into parts of the Conservative party, do you think

the referendum will happen? Would it shoot your fox if they did? I am not

in politics for the usual reasons, it is not about attaining rank, it

is about winning and getting back the independence and democracy of

this country. It would be a big wins, wouldn't it? I would be

delighted, and so would British business. A renegotiation is pretty

futile. I think what Adam Afriyie has done is to put his finger on the

real problem. This time last year David Cameron was saying no

referendum, now he is saying there should be, and people are not sure

what to believe. Everyone seems to think he will do well in the

European elections next year, but they also say that what will happen

is that when it comes to the general election, the single argument

against you that will really work is that if you vote for UKIP, you will

let in labour. What we saw last time was this argument being stripped

out. What happened in 150 seat is that if you vote UKIP, you get

UKIP. After the European elections next year, we will be targeting our

seats for the general election and next year, we will be targeting our

we will be doing it to get a decent representation of UKIP MPs in

Westminster. There are 36 marginal seats where a decent UKIP vote would

beat the Conservative incumbent. The reason the Tories are doing badly is

not because of me or UKIP, it is because their leader has marched

them towards social democracy. because their leader has marched

Everybody is ignoring the fact that you give's greatest growth has been

Everybody is ignoring the fact that a -month-old Labour voters in the

North of England. We take our vote from across the spectrum. If we take

Jacob Rees-Mogg, presumably you would not target him in quite a way

that you would target a Europhile. We will target resources where we

have won county council seats, district council seats, following

the model that the Lib Dems used under Paddy Ashdown, building on

local strength. If you can win at council level, you can win at

Parliamentary level. We will not worry about the others, our focus is

to get UKIP into Westminster, because then there really will be a

referendum. What about doing deals from the bottom-up, local parties

making decisions? There has been a lot of speculation about that, and

David Cameron and the Cabinet view as as being part of the lower

orders, we are not good enough for them. If Jacob Rees-Mogg's

Association wants to talk to ours in Somerset, I am perfectly relaxed

about that, but quite frankly I don't need him. I do not think it

will happen. The legislation has changed and you can run on a joint

ticket, somebody could run as a UKIP-Conservative candidate. They

have to want to end immigration and leave the EU. Not end immigration,

control it. As to your own position, it has been speculated he

would stand in Thanet South. I know, I read in the papers yesterday.

Actually, it is the last thing on my mind. The one thing the media of

forgetting, when they talk about the next election, in eight months' time

we have a European election on the same day that... I think I have

got... I think I have got a politician's answer from Nigel

Farage! To be honest with you, I was thinking about Folkestone, I am not

even go to think about that. You are going to stand question yes, but

let's get the European elections out of the way. Thank you very much.

A film set in Paris about love, sex, food and ageing is the new feature

from Roger Michell and writer Hanif Kureishi. Le Week-End stars Lindsay

Duncan and Jim Broadbent as a couple revisiting the city of light. Their

troubled but loving marriage is tested to breaking point, and the

film is not funny but is not afraid to be bleak as well. It is funny, I

should say. The stark realities of three decades come to light. The

film is different to others about middle age and older age, this is

not the Marigold Hotel. Who would want to live anywhere

else? Let's do it. What? Cel up, get an apartment here. We still have to

earn money. Haven't we worked for long enough? What else would we do?

We could be artists. We are from Birmingham. When I met the two leads

recently, Lindsay Duncan told me what attracted her and Jim Broadbent

to Le Week-End. It is appealing to play these people

and to tell this story, because it is actually recognisably real, and

it is a sort of film that I think you would want to go and see, this

kind of film. It is a story, we should explain, about married Love,

30 years on, revisiting a honeymoon, and it has been a rough 30 years for

your characters. They have gone through it all, they have gone into

their own shells, into denial, they have fought and got on, and somehow

you can see the whole history in this weekend. It is also a film

about old age. I would dare to describe it as a grown-up love

story, because I think to be together for 30 years and still be

recognisable as human beings is quite an achievement, frankly! But

you know, I don't think we necessarily think that it has been

miserable, but they are at that point in our lives where they

brought up children, the children have gone, and that is always a

moment when you start to think about the future. The children aspect is

interesting for a lot of people of this age bag the frankly feckless

child keeps coming home, has not got a job, a lot of people who have got

children who have come home after university. Or never gone next on

the was this consciously made a particular generation to... It is

not specifically aiming for the grey pound. You should probably not go

and see this with your lifelong partner, it is fair to say, in case

you recognise too much. It could be cathartic! When the couple go to

Paris, it makes them confront what ever they have been not been honest

about. What gorgeous hell is this? They are

French, I am sure their lives are awful, to. You really give him a

French, I am sure their lives are hard time a lot of the time, and I

wonder, as the film progresses, did you have to bring that back a bit?

You are brilliant as a really irritated wife, not just slightly.

It is difficult, and I cannot pretend that I did not worry. I am

very relieved pretend that I did not worry. I am

to be angry and frustrated, because... Jim's character is

frightened. They may be both are of what the next stage is, but he

really is going into his shell at it, or has been, hasn't been honest

about what has been going on in his it, or has been, hasn't been honest

life, and he had its, it is there in the dialogue, that he is frightened.

And he is needed. And he is also sympathetic, whereas the character I

play is... Less so. Yes, less so. These are quite dark, grown up

themes, but by the end it is quite an uplifting film. Well, along the

way, it is also very funny. They have a shared humour, which keeps

them together, keeps it going. There is a moment when we think you are

having sex, but in fact you are walking upstairs, which is one of

the funniest things I have seen on screen for a very long time.

HAVE your knees gone yet? Not yet! There are quite a lot of

stares in Paris. They are very breathless. At the end of the film,

it is the sort of triumph, I suppose, of married love against all

the odds. So money films are about adultery and marriage is falling

apart, the drama of that, very rare to have a film which is about

survival and sticking together after everything. Yes, it is rare. And it

does chart... When people get together initially, they have got

love and sex in common, and they just want to kiss for ever. In

Paris, you can go and do that. But all the complexities that build up

over 30 years as somehow there, but it is interesting that, you know,

marriages do survive, it is extraordinary really. And reckless

of them to test their marriage by going back so far! Would you take

your own partners to see this film? I have already! We have put them

through it a couple of times. My son is coming tonight because my husband

is unavailable, I am slightly anxious about that! The younger

generation can go and look at their parents on screen. A scary sight!

Thank you both very much indeed. Good film, quite a tough film. The

Government is about to publish an Immigration Bill designed, it says,

to attract those who contributed to the country and deter those who will

not. But will it be tough enough to satisfy voters for whom immigration

is the top concern and to have been deserting the Tories for UK? More to

the point, will it be fair? Theresa May is with me, and we will start by

talking about a very important events tomorrow, the launch of the

National Crime Agency. It sounds from the papers rather American, it

has already been called the British FBI. It is an important new body.

Can I just say, it is very good to see you in your normal spot? The new

National Crime Agency is designed to see you in your normal spot? The new

be a relentless crime-fighting body which will relentlessly pursue

organised criminals, and it is important. Crime is falling in this

country, but we cannot be complacent, and particularly on

organised crime I do not think the last government put and a focus on

it, but organised crime is changing. What was wrong with SOCA? You needed

to bring in a new body. The National Crime Agency will have within it

what was SOCA, but it will also have a number of commands focusing on a

what was SOCA, but it will also have number of different areas. It will

have an economic crime command, focusing on our ability to deal with

economic crime and fraud. It will have the organised crime command and

border policing, and we will be increasing our ability to deal

internationally, and the Child exploitation agency, and a new

national cyber crime unit. At the core of the National Crime Agency

will be intelligence, looking at a core of the National Crime Agency

whole new range of dealing with issues to ensure that we can

relentlessly go after organised criminals. It will have less money

relentlessly go after organised than the bodies it is replacing

would have had? Are you happy that it will be resolved sufficiently?

Yes, what we have seen over the changes we have made in policing is

that it is possible to keep up the relentless fight against crime

while, yes, in today's difficult circumstances, having to deal with

the deficit, being careful that the budgets that are available, but the

resources will be there. Crucially, we will have this new cyber crime

unit, but we are going to do some other new things, too. The National

Crime Agency will also be looking at working at local level and regional

level more, and ensuring that it is a cross government approach, not

just the police. In some of these issues, we need to bring to bear the

department of work and pensions and other parts of government. Reading

about it today, gung ho language, is this the Americanisation of British

policing? It is a British approach to dealing with an issue that we

face. It is absolutely right that the National Crime Agency will work

with local police forces, and it will work internationally as well.

It does not cover Northern Ireland, a slight oddity, isn't it? There are

some aspects of its work which will be in Northern Ireland but not

completely, but it will be working with the Police Service of Northern

Ireland in dealing with these issues. Let's turn to immigration if

I may, there are two Makra things you say you will do with this bill -

basically, carrots for those who will come here and work very hard,

sticks for those who will not. What are the new carrots? What we have

been doing with our immigration system, it has come down by a third

since the government came into power, and we have been trying to

since the government came into ensure that our system is a system

that offers a good service to those who want to come and be here and

contribute here, so we have opened up new routes for entrepreneurs,

investors, exceptionally talented people. On the other side of it, we

have been working to work out abuse people. On the other side of it, we

of the system. What I'm going to do in the new Immigration Bill is make

a number of changes. We will be reducing the appeal rights, making

it easier and extending the number of cases where people can be foreign

criminals, for example, the board at first and appeal outside the UK.

Will they get a fair appeal outside the country? I do not see how they

can appeal if they are not here? I think what people feel is wrong is

somebody being able to stay in the UK, somebody the Government thinks

should be deported, being able to stay in the UK, a foreign criminals

for example, be able to appeal again and again, building up extra rights

to stay here. I think it is important that we are able to deport

first and allow people, yes, a fair appeal, but from outside the UK.

There are measures to deprive people coming here of housing benefit and

other rights, including the rights coming here of housing benefit and

to use the NHS. I do not see how coming here of housing benefit and

that works. It's a body should not be here who is bleeding or who has

got an infectious disease, doctors or nurses will not turn them away.

-- if somebody. Of course, there are a emergency cases, but we want to

see a simple rule that people living in the UK, who have contributed to

the NHS, have contributed to the welfare system, and what people get

fed up about is seeing health tourism, people coming into the UK,

using the health service for coming into the UK and of the benefits is

that when they have not contributed. That is why we are

tightening up on both of those. How will it work, Home Secretary G-Mac

most people go to hospital with an emergency of some kind, and it is

difficult to see doctors saying, you cannot come into the hospital. We

are looking at a number of ideas. One is that for people who would be

here for a temporary period, they pay a sum of money so that they are

contributing to the health service. And then tightening up, within the

health service, on those cases where they should be charging people

for... Some people may have to go in for an emergency, but the

arrangements that their country should be charged afterwards.

Ensuring that we are getting that so people are not able to access the

benefits that people here in the UK have been paying for on the same

sort of free basis. What about the £3000 bombs to ensure that people

who come here and do not return lose the money G-Mac the Liberal Democrat

leader said he would the money G-Mac the Liberal Democrat

happening, you would not be able to go through with it. We have had a

number of approaches to this from our coalition colleagues. Most of

the people who are here illegally would be people who came on a legal

visa then stayed on. The bond would enable us, they would lose their

money, but we are not talking about a blanket approach to everyone who

comes to the UK, we are talking about a targeted, small number of

people. So you can come to an agreement with Nick Clegg? I want to

see a system that will ensure we deter over stayers. It is not about

enabling more people to come here, it is about ensuring that people who

come here will not overstay their visas. If a system is not going to

do that, then it has lost its purpose so the bond system must

deter over stayers. Nigel Farage raised the subject of the Romanian

and Bulgarian influx, we have delayed it but now it will happen

next year. If large numbers of people come, that will blow out of

the water your statistics on immigration, won't it? What we are

doing is exactly the sort of issues we have just been talking about,

looking at reducing the pool factors we have just been talking about,

-- pull factors - tightening up the benefits system. Nigel Farage says

Britain is in the middle of a Romanian crimewave, is that

scaremongering? We have been doing work with Metropolitan Police and

over the last 18 months, something like over 1000 foreign criminals

have been deported, removed as a result of the work that has been a

closer integration between the Metropolitan police and UK visas and

we are now extending that across the country. About a third of the crime

is committed by foreign nationals. What about these notorious funds

that have been going around, saying basically go home, is that a pilot

scheme has finished? That scheme has finished, we now need to evaluate it

to see what the impact was. The purpose was to encourage those who

are here illegally to go home voluntarily and obviously there is a

benefit to Government if people do that, but... It was heavily

criticised for its tone, I am wondering if you have taken that

lesson. We will evaluate and once I have seen the results of the

evaluation we can make a decision. I think what the public want to see is

evaluation we can make a decision. I a Government that is clearly doing

everything it can to remove people from this country who have no right

to be here, and that is what you are doing. Do you think it worked? There

has been a lot of criticism saying they didn't work anyway. I am

waiting to see the evaluation, I need to see proper work that says

what the impact was of these and then we can look at it carefully.

Can I ask about terrorism now, and after the appalling attack in

Nairobi there was a story in The Times yesterday saying that British

terrorists were involved in plots to use chemical and biological weapons

and were on their way over to Somalia. What can you say about

that? There is a limit to what I can say about any individual cases, and

I know the newspapers have been naming individuals, but for some

time now we have seen some people in the UK travelling out to Somalia and

now to Syria, and obviously in those circumstances... Some of those are

potential terrorists? Yes, who will get training potentially, or in some

cases engaging conflict and potentially return to the UK so this

issue with foreign fighters, as they are generally referred to...

Terrorists, as we call them at the BBC. They are potential terrorists,

the foreign fighters who go to Syria, some of them will be of the

the foreign fighters who go to jihadist mindset. Are you concerned

about the big soft targets here? The shopping centres are completely open

and basically unpatrolled and it would be very easy to mimic the kind

of ghastly attack that happened at the Westgate Centre in Britain. When

we came into Government will looked at this potential issue, there had

previously been the firearms terrorist attack in Mumbai and we

have increased the ability of the police to deal with those attacks,

the number of specially trained officers, but of course we keep

looking at these issues to make sure we are doing everything we can to

keep people safe. It is one element of our counterterrorism strategy,

the protection element and that is about working with the private

sector to ensure suitable protections are in place, something

the National crime agency will be doing with organised crime as well.

Do think it is likely in this country? Inevitable? I think the

Government should look at every possibility of an attack and look at

dealing with it, protecting the country from potential attacks but

crucially the work done day in day out by our security services

together with the police to prevent attacks, they do a very good job. We

are doing enough? You can never be complacent, we are always looking to

see if there is something more we can be doing. Thank you. Now the

see if there is something more we news headlines. The leader of the UK

Independence Party has told this programme he will stand at the next

general election, although he wouldn't say where. It has been

widely reported he will target the Kent seat. American special forces

have carried out raids in Africa targeting senior Islamist militants.

That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

Back to Andrew and guests in a moment. But first, a look at what's

coming up, after this show. As Interpol launches hunt for a woman

with links to terrorism, is enough being done to prevent the

radicalisation of young British people?

The Home Secretary is still with me and we have been joined again by

The Home Secretary is still with me Nigel Farage and also the French

singer, Zaz. Her platinum selling album 's mix jazz, blues and pop

with African and Latin influences thrown in as well. In the best

tradition, she has busked on the streets of Paris and now plays

venues all over Europe. She will be performing in London next month and

this is her UK debut. In the old days, we couldn't do food and you

could do food, but we could do pop and you couldn't do pop. As French

music come of age? I don't speak English very well, but I am so very

happy to be here. You will express yourself through your music, which

is the best way. I will not try to speak in French. I drive through

France a lot, and I know that and more recently there is a lot more

music in French. Frankly, the more he insults us, the

more he insults his own supporters because we know UKIP is not racist.

Theresa May, do you think UKIP has done your cause a lot of good? No, I

think what the Conservative party is doing is right, looking ahead at

what we can offer people in the next general election. We want to get

back to being the majority Government so we can scrap the Human

Rights Act and various other commitments. Would you pull us out

of the European Court of human rights? We are going to look at the

relationship we have with the European Court and European

convention and that work is being led by my colleague Chris Grayling

at the moment. If it takes pulling out of the European Convention to

sort out our human rights laws, that will be on the table. But we cannot

do that and stay apart of the European Union. Are you saying we

can do that? We need to take a sensible approach in looking at how

we sort out our relationship with sensible approach in looking at how

the European Court. They become one and the same thing. The European

commission are perfectly clear you cannot be a member if you leave the

European Court. One more pebble into the pond, the Adam Afriyie

Amendment, is that a goer? I think Adam has got it wrong, I think we

need to be negotiating that settlement with the European Union

and putting to the British people the Europe of the future. Is it a

real threat, getting this vote through? I think it is crucial that

at the next election we have a Conservative party offering people

the renegotiation of the new settlement of Europe, looking to the

future and putting it to the British people in a referendum, and what the

amendment could possibly do is it could jeopardise that bill. When do

you think we will see the renegotiated plan? There is no

serious renegotiation on offer, this is merely a tactic to kick the issue

into the long grass and it will shock the Tories when Ed Miliband

makes the same pledge for a referendum as well, which he will.

On this note of genial consensus, time has run out. One very important

note about next week's show, we will be starting at 9:15am on BBC One and

I will be speaking to the remarkable schoolgirl who has become a global

campaigner for education, Malala. She might even be a Nobel Peace

Prize winner as well, but do join me for that. We will now leave you with

Zaz and her track, Je Veux. # Donnez-moi une suite au Ritz, je

n'en veux pas # Des bijoux de chez Chanel, je n'en veux pas #

Donnez-moi une limousine, j'en ferais quoi?

# Offrez-moi du personnel, j'en ferais quoi?

# Un manoir a Neufchatel, ce n'est pas pour moi # Offrez-moi la Tour

Eiffel, j'en ferais quoi? # Je veux de l'amour, de la joie, de

la bonne humeur # Ce n'est pas votre argent qui fera mon bonheur # Moi je

veux crever la main sur le coeur # Allons ensemble, decouvrir ma

liberte # Oubliez donc tous vos cliches # Bienvenue dans ma realite

# J'en ai marre de vos bonnes manieres, c'est trop pour moi # Moi

je mange avec les mains et je suis comme ca # Je parle fort et je suis

franche, excusez-moi # Finie l'hypocrisie, moi je me casse de la

# J'en ai marre des langues de bois # Regardez-moi, de toute maniere je

vous en veux pas et je suis comme ca!

# Je veux de l'amour, de la joie, de la bonne humeur # Ce n'est pas votre

argent qui fera mon bonheur # Moi je veux crever la main sur le coeur #

Allons ensemble, decouvrir ma liberte # Oubliez donc tous vos

cliches # Bienvenue dans ma realite