27/10/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Though of course across most of Britain, it's a foul

morning. Just a couple of weeks ago we feared the Americans were going

to send us a devastating economic storm, knocking Britain's recovery

off course. Didn't happen. Instead they're sending us a real storm.

Long term, the economic one would have been much more damaging, but

over the next 24 hours it may not feel that way. It's been named St

Jude after the patron saint of depression and lost causes. Thanks

for that, Met Office! We'll do our best to cheer you up. Joining me

today for our review of the Sunday newspapers is Greg Dyke, former

Director General of the BBC, now chairman of another organisation

prone to regular crises, the Football Association. And Catherine

Mayer - editor at large of Time Magazine, who scooped the royal

press pack this week with her big interview with Prince Charles. Not a

smidgen of jealousy from the Brits, Catherine, I promise you.

Well, I talked about our economic recovery just now. But how strong is

it - how real is it for average earners, hit by stagnant incomes and

rising prices? That's probably what will decide the outcome of the next

election. At times, the Coalition partners seem more like a squabbling

couple on the verge of divorce. I'm joined by the Liberal Democrat

Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander. He's a

member of the "quad" which runs the government. So what's his party's

game plan in the lead up to 2015? Also this morning, with another

crunch meeting over press regulation looming, I'll be talking to Labour's

Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. With the press fighting tooth and nail

against the politicians, is this long-running story really reaching

its end? Then the police were in the

spotlight last week, and looking pretty uncomfortable. One of our

most senior coppers, Sir Hugh Orde of the Association of Chief Police

Officers, discusses police ethics and public trust in the force.

Finally, after an amazing summer with the Rolling Stones playing to

vast crowds at Glastonbury and Hyde Park, Ronnie Wood is here to talk

about his next gig, Bluesfest. And we'll have a rare treat, a solo

performance from him, at the end of the show..

All that's coming up. But first, the news with Sian Lloyd.

Good morning. People are being advised to prepare for a storm which

is expected to hit southern parts of Britain today with hurricane

strength winds. Forecasters are drawing comparisons with the great

storm of 1987. Councils are putting contingency plans in place and

travel companies are reviewing their timetables.

A German magazine claims America may have been bugging Chancellor Angela

Merkel's phone for more than ten years. Der Spiegel claims to have

seen secret documents from the US National Security Agency showing Mrs

Merkel's number on a list dating from 2002. On Friday, it was alleged

that America had tapped the phones of 35 world leaders.

The BBC licence fee could be cut unless the organisation becomes more

transparent. That's the warning from the Conservative party chairman

Grant Shapps in an article in today's Sunday Telegraph. Our

political correspondent Alan Soady assesses how serious this warning

is. This is being intended by Greg chaps

is a shot across the bowels of the BBC. He has a few criticisms

including the large scale of executive payoffs in recent years.

He talks about scandals involving Jimmy Savile and Stuart Hall. He

also questions the impartiality of BBC reporting and says the

credibility of the corporation is potentially at risk. So he's looking

ahead to what happens in three years and that is the renewal of the BBC

charter, the right for it to carry on charging a licence fee. He raises

the possibility that the licence fee is currently exists may not be the

only way that public service broadcasting can be secured. The BBC

itself has defended the quality of its journalism saying it believes it

is fair and impartial. It also says it agrees that transparency is the

way forward for the BBC but adds that so is impartiality and freedom

from interference by politicians. Inspectors have until the end of

today to meet their deadline for visiting all the chemical weapons

sites declared by the Syrian government. The team from the

Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has spent the past

six weeks working to ensure the country's stockpile is unusable.

They were sent to Syria following an attack near the capital Damascus in

August. The family of a young girl who was thought to have been

abducted by a Roma family in Greece say they want her to return home.

Maria was discovered in a camp near the city of Farsala last week. Her

Bulgarian parents, who are also Roma, deny she was sold as a baby

and say they gave her away because they couldn't afford to raise her.

That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before

ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. Thank you, Sian. Now to the papers.

The Sunday Telegraph carries that story about the BBC and the licence

fee threat. Singling out a particular BBC journalist for

criticism. The question for newspapers, if we get press

regulation as the politicians suggest, will we see politicians and

governments going for individual newspaper journalists in the same

way? The Sunday Times has a story about dirty tricks from the union

Unite. And the Observer is going with huge energy profits. A lot of

stories about energy companies avoiding taxes. Again we will speak

about that. And the Independent on Sunday, the other energy scandal,

tax avoidance. And finally a worrying pig chair. The Mail on

Sunday has British Army soldiers in Helmand province in Afghanistan

apparently giving Nazi salutes. It has been suggested that this could

be red-handed ulster salutes. And with me to review the papers are

Catherine Mayer and Greg Dyke. This is so predict the ball. I have been

waiting for it to happen. 18 months from an election, the government of

the day decides to start pressurising the BBC. Saying if we

win we will take away your money. They all do it. So we should not

take it seriously? No, this is an attempt to pressurise and intimidate

the BBC which is what the government does. But it does seem that we get

up every morning and shoot ourselves in the foot. Well there are two or

three things that have been happening which have been unpleasant

for the BBC. Jimmy Savile. I think the payoff is quite a difficult

story for the BBC. It is a disgraceful story. But that does not

mean that the whole of what the BBC stands for should be threatened.

That is what it is implying here. Eight team months before an

election, let us make sure the BBC behaves itself. When it comes to

defining impartiality, you cannot let politicians define

impartiality. Again a question of press regulation, I would have

thought. It is not entirely coincidental that this story would

appear now. The hacking trials start this coming week. Tomorrow morning.

That will be a huge story. But we move on to the story about Angela

Merkel. Indeed. We followed the same path to understanding Angela Merkel,

which was to go to the place that she grew up in East Germany. One of

the things I think people do not understand here, that is not clear

in this reporting of the revelations by Der Spiegel, based on documents

revealed by Edward Snowden, better phone has probably been tapped since

2002. That actually this is an incredible point of neuralgia for

Germans and particularly some dislike Angela Merkel who grew up in

East Germany in a country where everyone spied on everyone else. The

Germans are obsessed by privacy. I have the Sunday Times story. It is

about Snowdon. That has been widely condemned, the leaking. We are

discovering for the first time that the intelligence services are spying

on leaders throughout the world. I find it remarkable. I just find it

offensive. But not surprising, surely. In a sense that is what

spies are paid to do, to get information from people who have the

most interesting information, like Angela Merkel. It says they started

spying on her since 2002. President Obama says he knows nothing about

it. I would like to ask the same of George W Bush. I do not suppose I

would get the opportunity. Catherine, you had that interview

with Prince Charles, that huge scoop. There has been a lot of

pick-up on that through the newspapers. It was not an interview

with him but an in-depth profile which I spent months doing. I did

sit down with him for a conversation. You spent six months

within? Basically I spent six months trailing around talking to him. He

is cautious and private, that was a gamble on his part. How was it that

you got the story? Did he just like you? I would like to think that he

admired Time magazine. I did not get the sense of that, but that he was

nervous of the whole enterprise because he has been stitched up and

misrepresented so many times. I set out to do a balanced profile which

was then immediately taken up by the British press and traduced in the

way that only they can do. It is not the big problem for me, but for

him. What made him interesting to me is that gap between his public

persona and the way he is portrayed in the press here. I was trying to

disabuse people of the notion that he sit around waiting to be king. Of

course that has now turned into, he does not want to be king which is

just as wrong as the first impression. In terms of the BBC

story we were just discussing, I find it funny that the Telegraph has

this piece about Prince Harry, a drugs slur. That is quite clearly

using a royal story to attack the BBC. And then in the Mail on Sunday,

they commissioned Selina Scott, who I'm sure does know the Prince, to

talk about the problems of his role. But she does it talking about my

article, which she may or may not have read. What I did not take is

that he does not want to be king. Unfortunately she does reinforce the

false impression. Of course the mail asked me to write a piece and I was

not able to. So they have looked to her instead. You can see how he

might be reluctant, given he is so passionate about his campaign. When

he is king he cannot do that stuff ever again. I do not think he would

necessarily say that was true. I was contrasting the difference between

the duty he has grown up expecting to do, to be king, and the passion

which is the role he has carved out for himself. What I spoke about is

this transition to make sure that he can sustain both parts of it. Very

difficult. Greg, if you were told never to say anything interesting

again... Meanwhile the newspapers are still looking the christening.

Last night at the FA we had the big dinner, 150 years of the FA. We had

it at the very place where 11 men sat down and wrote the rules of

football. Prince William is the president and he was there last

night. He announced that he wants young George to be an Aston Villa

supporter. Quite a burden for a young child! Kill -- kids all over

Britain have been burdened with football teams by their fathers.

That is how it happens. This has been the national game for ever and

yet we do not have a great deal of royal support. Royals turn up to

support cricket or rugby but not football so much. I think the Duke

of Cambridge is brilliant as president. He is genuinely

interested. He takes so much interest in this particular year. He

himself asked his grandmother if we could have a foot or match on the

garden of Buckingham Palace. -- but all. He is a fan. Let me take you on

to the other big story, the racism row. This is about Toure facing

racism talks. I'm not quite sure how you would face talks. It is hardly

an inquisition. What can be done? There is a process that the referee

can follow. If a player complaints are racist taunts from the crowd,

and the referee thinks he is right, he can stop the game and he can warn

the crowd. He can do that twice. On the third occasion, he can abandon

the game. He literally just stops the game? I didn't know that could

be done. It has never been done. Sepp Blatter from FIFA was saying

last might that it is only a matter of time before we have to take that

action. Actually stop a game and empty stadium. Yes. Racism was

rampant 30 years ago in football, and it is much less so today. I

wrote a profile of Mario Balotelli last year, and wrote a profile of

him. He has gone back to Italy, and although he is Italian, because he

is black basing chance that he cannot be black and Italian. They

throw bananas at him. This level of racism is so far, not just in Italy

but in Spanish football as well. What do you think of a boycott next

year? It is too early to say. You've got five years to sort it. Our

players, our black players, get abused. And it's got to be stopped

before the Royal -- before the World Cup. Any other pictures caught your

eye? I have one, which is this appalling coda filter the government

shut down in the states. That happened because part of the

Republican party was trying to basically repeal Obamacare. And

Obama wasn't having any of it? Exactly. America is amazingly deeply

divided, but there was this huge shutdown. Finally they reached some

kind of fudge, and Obamacare goes online, and what happens? They

haven't actually tested the systems, so it is a disaster. It be

worse. That was the economic storm I was referring to at the beginning of

the programme. What about the real storm? Everyone is covering the real

storm. I don't know whether to believe it or not yet. We will just

sit here and wait. It will be interesting about whether people

travel and things like that. When you decide whether you will stay at

home... Batten down the hatches! Do you remember the Great Storm of

1987? I was in my house at the time. I thought to myself, it is windy

here. I went outside to discover a tree across my car. I am going to

move my car to avoid a tree falling on it. I have some friends who

actually got together during the last great storm. They didn't

realise that the storm was going on. They just managed to somehow miss

the fact they were in the middle of the Hurricane Sandy got stranded

somewhere together. And they are still married! What a lovely story.

I had a friend who moved his car into the garage and a tree fell on

the garage! It has been very wet and windy this morning. Not quite a

storm. Where is it? When is it? How bad is it going to be? Over to the

weather. It will not be quite as bad as we

expected in 87, but it will be now -- it will be bad nonetheless. For

the time being, it is blustery out there. A band of heavy rain pushing

its way eastwards. Really brusque -- were really blustery throughout the

day. It is a story of missed showers today. More hits towards the north

and west, where some of the shower is will be heavy. Temperatures

fresher today than yesterday. Tonight, the wind picks up,

particularly around the English Channel. The rain could be a problem

into morning rush-hour in England. One or two showers and cool

conditions for Monday mornings. To the south is where we have an amber

Met Office warning. To the south, in this zone, we could see winds

gusting 70 or 80 miles an hour, maybe even 90s. But the zone could

change just a little bit, so stay tuned to the forecast. Showers

during the morning rush hour, but they will ease. As the rain eases,

the breeze will pick up. By the end of the afternoon, a fairly standard

autumnal day. A blustery day with sunshine and showers, and

temperatures between ten and 16. So perhaps not quite so dramatic?

The police have had their problems over the year, is but this is quite

serious. Talks of Plebgate and so on. A Hippocratic Oath plan for the

police has just been published. Is it really necessary? I joined now by

Sir Hugh Orde, head of Association of Chief Police Officers. What did

you think of this affair? I watched every moment of the select

committee, and it wasn't a good day for policing. The officers should

apologise in the same manner and style as the chief constable did. On

the positive side, we had a very transparent analysis of what was

going on by a select committee of the House of Commons, and three

chief officers stepping up and being held to account. If you hear the

tape recording of the meeting with Andrew Mitchell, the officers

apologised for the choreography of what happened, but not the

substance. Is that acceptable? Whatever else is discussed, what was

found in the case was that the officers' standard of contact --

standard of conduct fell below what was required. And they said they

were sorry for that. Two of the chief constables didn't apologise

either, which shocked a lot of people. They need to be

disciplined, and the senior constables need to be disciplined,

don't they? The way I saw it, the three chief Oster boils -- chief

officers did apologise. I'm very clear on this. We need an

independent investigation, rather like the ones I had in Northern

Ireland. The IPCC should have taken this on. It was at the top of the

seriousness agenda. We do not have an independent system. In Northern

Ireland, that event would have been investigated independently of the

police in its totality. It was the chief constables who decided there

was no case for misconduct? They took a view on the seriousness of

the case and a finding. They will have to stand up and explain the

reasons behind that, and that is what their chief officers did. Do

you think the Independent Police Complaints Commission is fit for

purpose in the UK? It is not entirely independent. This case

shows they supervised the investigation. I think, in this

case, we needed one which was entirely independent. It is a far

better place to be as a chief constable. What is the real

difference between an ombudsman and the IPCC? They are totally

different. Officers in Northern Ireland had complete control of

every complaint in every system. I did not touch them. That is truly

independent. And that would end completely the idea of the police,

in effect, judging their own alleged misconduct? And you would like to

see that brought in as soon as possible here? Indeed. It is an

effective system. There was a reality about this, which is

finances. Can I ask about this so-called Hippocratic Oath for the

police? Police have promised not to fit people up, they have to promise

not -- promise to be missal -- to be whistle-blowers when necessary. I

think it is more important than that. We have a new college of

policing, led by Sir Alex Marshall, who is driving this onward. The code

is not rocket science. It is a universal standard that applies

across the country. I think that is important. I think it is far more

serious than you suggest. It sets a standard of expectation. It is a

public document, and is currently out for consultation, so the public

have a right to say what they think it should look like. What about the

idea of all police wearing cameras and recording devices, so their

interactions with members of the public are on record? Cameras are

not new. They are subject to some form of experimentation now. I have

a reservation about some blanket policy which requires us to film

every interaction with citizens. There have been records of us

filming in some peoples houses, where they may not want us to film.

The College of policing will undertake that research on behalf of

the service. For the first time, we have an evidence -based research and

analysis we draw on. But the idea of filming every interaction, I think

many would have reservations about that. We also have the dive gear of

bringing in methods from the States. -- the idea. What you make of that?

Police and Crime Commissioners have the sole responsibility now for

hiring and firing chief constables. When this process is finalised and

the law is passed, they will be allowed to select chief constables

from other jurisdictions which have a common-law jurisdiction. We will

have to wait and see. I am confident that the quality of leadership in

this country has nothing to fear from fair competition from outside.

So the idea of a guy coming in to try and run London which has a

different culture and history, that doesn't worry you? I think one of

the strengths of British policing is that we understand what it is like

to be a street cop. I spent 26 years there, and I understand how the city

works. You are saying that we don't need anybody foreign coming in? I

would be surprised if many would have the quality of leadership that

I am pleased to represent. Thank you.

Never mind the green shoots, we are on the path to prosperity, says the

Chancellor. Ministers haven't dared to be that positive about the

economy for three years. George Osborne has said that a return to

growth will not change his determination to continue with

austerities. Earlier, I spoke to his deputy at the Treasury, the Liberal

Democrat Danny Alexander, and I asked him whether the trajectory of

public spending must continue to go down. We take the view that reducing

public spending is not the end in itself, it is a means to the end.

The end we are working towards is to create the conditions where the UK

economy can recover. And where we can have a sustainable set of

finances where we can pay our way as the country. There is to be more

work on that in the next Parliament. We haven't finished. Would you

continue with austerities, if the recovery continues? We will have to

look at that in our manifesto. We will take a position on the latest

forecasts in 2017-18. We will still have a lot of work to do to reduce

the stock of debt we have built up as a country, to reduce the amount

of money we are spending on debt interest payments, and precisely

what our approach to that will be will be set out in our manifesto.

There is no reason to take the same approach as the Conservatives. We

don't think reduction in public spending is an end in itself, we

think it is a means to an end. People watching will think, you are

the smaller party, so if we get another conservative Lib Dem

coalition, there will be a freeze on public spending, and the George

Osborne approach, which is that we're not going to increase

spending, we are going to do it through public spending cuts. And

Danny Alexander can have his manifesto as very progressive, but

when push comes to shove, you will do it in a second Parliament as you

did it in a first parliament. The role that we play in British

politics is about anchoring British politics in the centre ground, and

making sure that we don't get pulled off in one extreme direction by the

trade unions and the left of the Labour Party, or by the

anti-Europeans in the Conservatives. We make sure we can have a

government which can both deliver a stronger economy and a fair society.

We are only -- we are the any party in British politics that can offer

both of those things. You have been working on the economy, but by and

large, the larger party will get its way and the smaller party will

follow. You will not be able to raise income tax on people at the

top in a million years, what ever you say now. This is a plan we have

worked on with George Osborne. We are delivering that plan. We have

set out spending plans right the way through to 2016. That is the

commitment we made. Its 2016. Danny Alexander is still

in the Treasury. The squeeze goes on. That is what I am trying to

establish. If, in 2016, there is further deficit reduction that needs

to happen, we have made it clear that there should be additional

taxes to make sure the burden is shared. George Osborne may try to

say that, but we have raised capital gains tax, we have had a big attack

on capital gains tax avoidance. We have reduced the tax relief that

wealthy people get on their pensions contributions, and asked the

wealthier to pay a lot more. That is a Lib Dem contribution. Do you

concede that for average families, life has got harder since the

Coalition will select did? That there has been a squeeze on living

standards. There is no doubt that families across this country are

under financial pressure. Given the depth of the economic crisis and the

hard work we have all had to do to get to a stage where the economy is

able to grow sustainably again, that is true. But there is another Lib

Dem commitment, in April next year we will get to the ?10,000 income

tax free threshold. So the government are helping people with

these pressures. Do you think that by 2015 the average family will see

an increase in spending power is Mac there is only one way to make sure

that we do get to that position. That is to make sure we have a

strong and sustainable economic growth. It is the economic plan of

the Coalition that is the rock on which economic growth is delivered.

But in the end it is delivered by working people and businesses

working hard to deliver economic growth. You have been watching the

grass -- the row over green taxes. Are you on the side of your leader

saying that we have to protect green taxes, or those parts of green taxes

which encourage wind and so on. The bits that are for social purposes,

we could take over to general taxation. That is basically right.

We are looking at every aspect of what contributes to energy bills to

make sure that people are not paying more than they need to. But the

right that our commitment to green and renewable energy are vitally

important is not something we will compromise on. So that 4% on energy

bills for green energy will stay there. The percentage for social

purposes might go to general taxation? We are looking at all of

those options. We have not made any decisions at the moment. One

interesting issue, when you are reviewing green energy for instance,

those critics of wind farms, will they get a say in this? Well within

government we are working on just looking at the object to is that we

have, for example in terms of helping people with Kewell poverty.

We have that warm homes discount helping people in the country. Is

that something that could be paid for by general taxation? That is a

discussion within government. What is the right way to achieve the

social objectives we all agree about. And reports about energy

companies not paying their fair share of taxes, what is your message

to them? My message to any company is to stop it. Because as the

government we are taking steps might across the board, tackling

innovation and aggressive tax avoidance. We have a general

anti-avoidance rule that has come into force. We are also working

internationally to work on some of these problems. So the kind of

loopholes, we are addressing them. People are going to be livid about

this, finding out that these companies are avoiding paying taxes

in this country. People are rightly livid about companies and

individuals avoiding paying the proper amount of tax. That is not

acceptable at any time but especially when we are going through

tough spending choices. Can you get some more legislation on this to

help you? We have taken a lot of powers on this already. We have

further action that we will take the Autumn statement. We have invested

?1 billion extra to strengthen the ability of HMIC to go after tax

dodgers. But the international work is also important. The rules

governing international companies were set up 100 years ago. We are

trying to stop multinational companies being able to artificially

ship their profits around. One other huge issue, the high-speed rail

link. We had reports today that Ed balls has compared it to the

millennium Dome as a grand government folly. Suggesting that

Labour would pull the plug. And also suggestions that the real cost is

rising. What is the real cost? The real cost is the budget that we set

out, ?46 billion. It has not changed at all. And that includes within it

a significant amount of contingency. I am confident that we will not just

delivered within that budget but as with the Olympic Stadium, under

budget. That is a guarantee for you? I'm working very hard to make

sure that that happens. We are using the same techniques that we used to

deliver the Olympic Park. But I would say to Labour, if you are

concerned about labour and the South East, which you are obsessed about,

but the economic health of the whole country, HS2 is something that can

transform the economic landscape of this country. People in Birmingham

would see this as a huge boost to their city as well. But there is a

price. Every family has been told there is a limit to the budget. It

is the same with HS2. Everything has a price. But one of the things that

have undermined our economy over the past few decades, is prioritising

short term spending over long-term investment. We have set out

long-term plans, in broadband and energy networks, making sure our

company -- our country is strong and able to grow over the decades to

come. So you will not go over the budget? We have set that budget and

we will stick to it. The issue press regulation, most of the press saying

we will have nothing to do with the Royal Charter. What happens now? We

had a debate about this in Parliament back in March. We have

amended the cross-party Charter in the light of some of the things we

learned our consideration of the press charter. That will go to the

privy Council later this month. Is that negotiations to be held with

the editors? I hope that over time and on reflection the media sector

will decide it wants to play its part in making sure that many of the

problems we have seen over many years are not able to happen at ten.

So you're not going to go back to the press and say OK, we're not

quite there yet, here is another idea. The committee I was on has

completed its work. But focused on considering the charter that the

press board of Finance put forward. We have reached a view about how we

want to take this forward. That did learn from some of the things

highlighted by the press, the arbitration system, for example. But

we will now have that Charter agreed at the -- at the privy Council and

go forward from there. For anyone who thought that the

greatest rock group in the world might be winding down, the Rolling

Stones went and wowed Glastonbury last summer, with such a memorable

debut there that a new generation fell for them. Soon after they

conquered Hyde Park, a return to the scene of their most iconic concert,

44 years on. Ronnie Wood has been playing guitar with the band since

the mid-70s. He will soon be reuniting with the man he replaced

in the Stones, Mick Taylor, at what's sure to be one of the

highlights of London's Bluesfest. He's going to play for us later, but

in the meantime I'm delighted to say he's here, live and unplugged. This

looks like quite an elderly guitar. It is probably from the 1940s. Maybe

even as early as the 1920s. Have you had with all the way through? Kiss

has had it. -- Keith. He does not know that I have got it! He stole

one of my perfectly nice guitars. So I said to him, that is mine. He

said, not any more! So you have got that one! That is what we do. What

goes around comes around. And you're going to be playing at Bluesfest. It

is a tribute to Jenny Reid, who we know as a Clydeside man Matt did not

know that he wrote songs as well. He is very much an all-rounder! People

may know him for songs like bright lights, big city. He was a blues man

from the 1950s, 1960s. The song I'm going to do today is probably his

first recording. That is about 1954. Just going back to the summer, it

has been amazing for the Rolling Stones. You did resist dust and

debris for so long and then gave way. Why this year in particular? We

were frightened of by the mud! And Charlie said, it is not a jazz club.

Try and see the other side of it. It is the biggest festival in the

world. So it was great and we finally decided to go. And then Hyde

Park, we can see a little bit of that now.

important place for you for historic reasons. That is right. 1969, I

remember meeting the reasons. That is right. 1969, I

perimeter of the park when Brian Jones had died.

perimeter of the park when Brian the outside yelling with people.

Advocaat pulled up and the outside yelling with people.

Charlie got out of the car. -- a card pulled up. It was special for

me. Because you were on stage very shortly after you join the band.

Also to talk about your years before the Rolling Stones. I used to bump

into Mick Taylor on the road when I was with my first group. He was with

another band and he was always nervous. I cannot go on. And I would

say, you are a great player, Bill and do it. So I would often play is

set as well as my own. But today, we are going to be playing together at

Bluesfest. You were with Rod Stewart as well during some of those early

years. You look exact in the same! -- exact day. And a wonderful

looking guitar. I still have that. It was handmade. You do keep guitars

for a long time? Yes. And there is Rod Stewart, not looking the same as

he does now, I have to say! You are wearing quite a strange outfit as

well. I remember that. And the blues, that is where it all started

from. That is where modern rock music starts. And I'm paying tribute

to Jimmy Reid. The Rolling Stones is to do some covers in the early days.

We all took aloof dad took a leaf out of Jimmy Reid's book. He needs

to have a tribute. Rock starts when white boys pick up things like Jimmy

Reid and then transmit them back to the Americans. That is when the

British invasion came from. We sold back to the Americans what they

started in the first place. Is British rock music now dead? It is

right up to date. We would not be anywhere today without these routes

of the music like the blues. That goes through into soul and R And

that is still echoed in rap. People assume you spend most of your time

in music and rehearsing. But you don't. You spend a lot of time

painting? Yes. Here is a picture of you and Keith. Yes. And that is an

oil painting? You are trying to express yourself in paint? You do

much more conventional stuff now, landscapes and that kind of thing?

Yes, and ballerinas and so on. But also these portraits. Greg Dyke was

telling me earlier on that he has your painting of Bob Dylan. He

should hang onto that! Here is a bit of landscape, and one of my horses.

That is a bit like Bob Dylan. That is a view, from my dreams, of my

barn. I went back the next day and it came to me in my sleep. Thank you

very much for joining us. You are going to go and get set. We will

talk later on. Venky's. Onto the next thing. It started with phone

hacking and it has become one of the longest running sagas in press

history. The attempt to set up a new system of press regulation could

come to a head this year, when the Privy Council decides whether or not

to approve the Royal Charter, which will underpin it. Most of the press

groups are against it. We tried very hard today to get a senior editor to

discuss their case. Nobody was prepared to come onside. Here is

Harriet Harman to talk on the issue. Thank you for joining us. Is this

it, as far as the politicians are concerned? I think so. We had this

long public enquiry under Lord Justice Leveson, because of the

terrible things that had happened to individuals like the Dowlers family

and the McCanns, who had been victims of crime and had their lives

turned upside down by the press. The question was, how do you make sure

you have a proper complaint system. What is suggested is that

politicians set up a prime work, but then the press should come forward

with the self regulation system which is tracked -- which is checked

every few years. We have come up with the framework, and the ball is

now in the court of the press to come forward with a press regulator

to deal with complaints. As you know, the press are going to say, we

want nothing to do with this. What happens if you have a stand-off,

where you have a Royal Charter, and the press are doing their own system

and ignoring what the politicians have said? I hope that will not

happen. They are going to. Everybody has agreed that the status quo,

which was not a proper complaint system, has failed. What has

happened in the past when that has happened is the press have said, we

will sort it out ourselves, leave us to it, and then a few years later,

they slip back. All this is doing is making sure that when they sought

out a new press complaint system, it doesn't slip -- it doesn't slip

back. They should come forward with this new system and allowed to be

signed off every three years. But if they don't, I am absolutely certain

that some publish or another will come forward, established a

regulator which has got a complaint system, which is then recognised and

authorised, and then that switches on a system of incentives and

disincentives, and that is the framework suggested by Leveson. If I

am the publisher of the Accrington Bugle, and I sign up to your system,

that automatically create a new legal situation, does it? Yes. It

switches on the incentives and disincentives, because any paper can

join the regulator. What if I am the Sunday Times, and I say, I am having

nothing to do with you? The incentives are you can have

arbitration against a newspaper which is cheaper and quicker than

having the civil courts. The newspaper will not have to be tied

up. The disincentives are that if you do not sign up to the

regulator, and somebody has a complaint which ends up in court

because it is libel or breach of privacy, which is a breach of the

civil law, you will not be able to claim your costs against the other

side. There is a cost penalty, and you might even have to pay the other

side's costs, even if they lose. For newspapers who fear this is the thin

end of the wedge for newspapers telling them what to do... People

think it is the beginning of huge numbers of frivolous complaints.

Simply having costs doesn't seem to be too bad a penalty to pay. The

most important reason not to stay out is because everybody has

recognised that there needs to be a proper press complaint system for

individuals, if the press breach their own code of ethics. It is

simply saying, you've got your professional standards and it is

right you should have those, but what happens if there's a breach?

You cannot sit in judgement on yourself. This would create a system

that is independent, not only of politicians but of newspaper

editors. I hope they will think again about their resistance on

this. We are not running this system. We are simply saying it

should be an independent system. You do not sound like you are sitting

there with a big stick. You don't have a punishment for me if I am the

Sunday Times or the Spectator. At this point, we are taking the

charter to the Privy Council this week. It is not for me to be

standing here with a stick. There are disincentives in the system,

penalties if you like, for people who do not join a regulator under

the new system. But I hope that will not be the case. The BBC are coming

under the cosh again this morning. Are you surprised by the tone of

what Grant Shapps, the Conservative Party chairman, has been saying? I

think it is absolutely wrong. He is the chair of the Conservative par.

This has not come from the Secretary of State for culture, Maria Miller.

He is using the fact we are having a licence fee review to put pressure

on the BBC, because the Conservatives are trying to blame

the BBC for the fact they are trying to report that the government is not

succeeding. It has worked. I am completely intimidated. What about

HS2? Annie Alexander is saying that there is a cap of ?42 billion and he

will stick to it. -- Danny Alexander. Are you still in for HS2?

We absolutely support better north - south lines. We are in better -- we

are in favour of better infrastructure for commuters, but

not at any cost. Ed Balls is saying we need to keep a strong eye on the

costs as well as the benefits. It is no good the government simply

complaining about people raising these issues, they should address

them, and be properly analytical about the benefits. Comparing it to

the Millennium Dome seems a bit like the kiss of death. He was asked

about the Millennium Dome. He didn't volunteer it. If the costs don't

rise beyond where they are at the moment, will Labour support this?

Basically, there is a question of cost and benefits, and you have to

look at both of them. So not necessarily. This is the

responsibility that the government have for spending public money. They

have to be sure that the benefits justify it. Is it the right

project? We have to be encouraging the government, instead of just

cheerleading for this and blaming people who raise issues, saying this

is a massive amount of money, and it's got to be well spent. Thank you

for joining us. Over to the news headlines.

People are being advised to prepare for a storm which is expected to hit

southern Britain over the next few days. It is being compared to the

Great Storm of 1987. Significant disruption is expected and councils

are putting contingency plans in place.

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has told this programme he is

confident that the HS2 rail line will be built for less than its

budget. The Liberal Democrat minister, Danny Alexander, said the

project is important for economic regeneration beyond the south-east

of England. He said the budget already included a significant

contingency. That's all from me for now. The next

News from BBC One is at one o'clock. Now a brief look at what is coming

up after this programme. On Sunday Morning Live, why two

children were taken away from their parents by police because of the

colour of their hair. Why we should all start paying for the NHS, and

the vicar who doesn't believe in God.

Harriet Harman is still with me, and we have been joined again by Greg

Dyke. Harriet, Greg is making the point that it isn't just the

Conservatives to bash the BBC 18 months ahead of an election. All

governments do. Labour have done it in the past. I think it is right for

the BBC to make sure they keep a hawk eye that people don't strain to

the independence of the BBC. The BBC must hold out against that. In the

run-up to the charter review and the licence review, for grant Schatz,

the chairman of the Conservative Party, to Ray in on this, is

completely wrong. -- for Grant Shapps. It is easy to say, I will be

strong and resist it, but it is difficult. He is putting a marker

down for an election. That's what it is. He is saying that we will be

watching you over the next 18 months. Don't you think that when

press regulation comes into full force, politicians would be doing

the same thing? I think it is different. Some of those Tories are

against the BBC because it is a public corporation, and they have

never liked it, and they take any opportunity to give it a good

kicking. The BBC has given an opportunity with the high salaries

-- the high salaries and the way they have handled Jimmy Savile. You

lost your job under a Labour government. I can't remember them

being very friendly towards the end! I think what happens is that

opposition politicians are very nice about the BBC, but in government, as

their message doesn't get through, they get more and more upset. Greg

Dyke and Harriet Harman, thank you very much, and no -- and now over to

Ronnie Wood, who is going to play us out. We are back next week, same

time, same place. I am joined by Sir Elton John, a musical legend if ever

there was one. Speaking of which, we will leave you with Ronnie Wood,

playing the old Jimmy Reed blues tracks, High and Lonesome. Ronnie.

# High and Lonesome. # Be on your merry way.

# High and Lonesome. # Be on your merry way.

# Well now, you're back a-wanting me.

# And I'm not gonna let you stay. # Well now, ya went on round the

corner, now. # Come back soon.

# Not gonna meet me, you just waitin' til noon.

# I'm High and Lonesome. # Be on your merry way.

# Well now, you packed up, want to leave me.

# And I'm not gonna let you stay. # Well now, tell me, tell me baby,

now, now. # What's wrong with you?

# Don't treat me darlin', like you, # Like you used to do.

# I'm high and lonesome. # Be on your merry way.

# Well now, you're packed up want to leave me.

# And I'm not gonna let you stay. #.