03/11/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. 50 years ago this month, John F. Kennedy was

assassinated in Dallas and the papers have been obsessed all week.

And what an eloquent man. Do not pray for easier lives, prayed to be

stronger men. That is not bad. But there is a less high-minded phrase

followed by today's politicians. Forgive your enemies, he said, but

never forget their names. Today we have the editor of London's Evening

Standard Sarah Sands and Kevin Maguire, associate editor of the

Daily Mirror. And John F. Kennedy features in our show today. David

Miliband, now head of the international charity, International

Rescue is here to deliver a lecture, lessons from JFK. Sir Elton John's

most famous song, Candle In The Wind, was written originally about

Marilyn Monroe, one of John F. Kennedy's girlfriends. I have been

talking to him about his childhood, his family and his extraordinary

career. The nation that does not trust its people to judge between

truth and falsehood in a free market is a nation that does not trust its

people. JFK again, but it is the kind of thing papers have been

saying about the new form of press regulation. Maria Miller, the

culture, media and sport Secretary is here to talk about that and the

arts in Britain. Imagine if Alan Partridge had a soul. His creator

Steve Coogan has made a film with Dame Judi Dench which is profound,

heart-wrenching and has the critics gushing with praise. We will be

talking to Steve Coogan about that. You should be nice to the people on

the way up because you might meet them again on the way down. Sound

words. First the news. The police watchdog is to hold a

fresh investigation into the conduct of three police officers involved in

the so-called Plebgate affair. They are accused of giving a misleading

account of a former meeting with Andrew Mitchell. They have been

strongly criticised in a report by the Home Affairs Select Committee

and two of them have been summoned to appear before Parliament again

this week. The police claimed Andrew Mitchell called them plebs, and he

has always denied it. But the fallout from this encounter

continues to damage the reputation of the police. Days after the

incident these three police Federation members met Mr Mitchell

for private talks. They met at his constituency office last October.

After the meeting the three police officers said Andrew Mitchell had

not explained himself. But Andrew Mitchell had recorded the meeting

and proved he had. There was an internal police enquiry and the

officers faced no disciplinary action. Last week they gave evidence

to this committee of MPs. Today's the committee's chair is scathing

about the evidence. We were appalled by the evidence we received from

these officers which was inconsistent, lacked credibility and

character. Two of the officers are accused of misleading the committee

and they have been recalled to Parliament on Tuesday. The committee

found there was a regrettable absence of leadership by all three

constables involved in the enquiry. The Independent Police Complaints

Commission said there were a number of irregularities in the way the

internal enquiry was handled and it will hold a new public enquiry. The

government has abandoned plans to make some visitors hand over

thousands of pounds as a bond before being allowed to enter the country.

The money would have been retained if they had stayed on after their

visas expired. The proposals were criticised by senior Liberal

Democrats. The union which represents prison officers says

staff cuts may have been a factor in the disturbance at Maidstone jail in

Kent yesterday. The Prison Officers' Association claims government

reforms could lead to unrest if prisoners had to spend more time in

their cells. Officers with riot training were sent in to resolve the

incident. No one was hurt and an investigation is underway.

Pakistan has accused the US of deliberately sabotaging its efforts

to start peace talks with the Taliban following a drone strike

which killed the movement's leader. The government says the killing of

Hakimullah Mehsud has undermined talks it was due to have with senior

Taliban members. The US State Department has declined to comment.

The Labour leader Ed Miliband is promising a tax break for companies

which increase the wages of their lowest paid staff. He says if his

party wins the next election, he will offer a rebate to bosses who

put workers on what is known as the living wage. It is ?8.55 an hour in

London and ?7 45 throughout the rest of the UK. And no to the front pages

and the interview over the living wage is in the Independent on

Sunday. The papers cannot decide what to lead on today. The mail on

Sunday has a story about Holocaust survivors' souvenirs. It is being

sold on eBay. We probably will not be talking at great length about

that. The Sunday Mirror, yes they are at it again over MPs' expenses.

A picture of Dame Judi Dench and it is 50 years since the National

Theatre was founded. The Sunday Times have got a story about Ed

Miliband's struggle with the Unite union in Scotland. The Sunday

Telegraph, Al-Qaeda bomb plotter pleads to Europe for his freedom.

Kevin, let's start with the Ed Miliband interview. Dad indulged me

in my red Sox obsession, says Ed Miliband about his dad. But he went

at the age of 12 and he fell in love with baseball and he was watching

them the other morning when they won the world series. But the crunchy

bits of this interview is about the living wage. There are half a

million people in Britain who do not earn a living wage. Explain the

difference between the minimum wage and the living wage. The minimum

wage is ?6 31 an hour and is a legal requirement and everybody must be

paid that. The living wage is an aspirational wage, drawn up by a

commission that earns -- that says you have to earn a certain amount.

Things like spending ?50 on a birthday for your child, taking your

children to the zoo. Yes, the cost of fares, the cost of housing, that

is what they reckon. Six and a half million, more than one in five are

not getting the living wage. We now subsidise low pay through tax

credits, why not get people on the living wage and subsidise companies

to pay it. Ed Miliband reckons you would get a lot of that by paying

less in tax credits and people would pay more. It is not a bonanza, but

it is far better. Is it a name and shame thing? There are several

hundred in the private sector as well as the public sector who pay

the legal wage. City Hall are about to make that announcement. You can

do it by example or you can do it by subsidising. You started a campaign

in London. It is pertinent to London because of the cost of living. It is

interesting because it affects the right as well as the left and people

thinking this thing of workers on benefit and people not earning

enough to survive, so they have to take benefits. One of the big

scandals is supermarkets, hugely profitable, making a fortune, paying

less than the living wage. You are prepared to come on the show and

talk about press regulation, thank you because there are not many

people who want to do that. You have chosen something from David Davis.

It is the mail on Sunday. There is a sullen tone to the newspapers at the

moment. They are feeling a bit muddled. David Davis says, do not

trust the state with control of the free press. But it is entirely how

you frame the argument. The other side would say it is not politicians

intervening. Is it about the press and politicians, or is it about the

way the press deals with innocent victims? I am now about to go and

drown myself in my coffee. Is the press going to be able to tell

stories about misbehaving MPs? One hopes so. Steve Coogan says no

politician was to prevent investigative or public interest

journalism. We have him on later on. They did not want to investigate the

Telegraph and the expenses list. It is all taking part against the

backdrop of this media story. It has been agreed by the Queen. The Sunday

Times is talking about how much did they know? If you were not aware of

this trial, you probably would have been on Jupiter for the past week.

But they cannot comment on the trial because of reasons of contempt, so

they go through what has happened. If anyone wants to make comments on

Twitter, everyone is advised to keep their traps shut. Things have come

out of that we knew about. But the more pertinent piece today is in the

Observer, a very powerfully argued editorial in the Observer on press

regulation. It attacks the Royal Charter, saying it is just a piece

of vellum that was hatched up. It is part of the same group as the

Guardian and they have been hovering on the fence for quite a long time.

The charter is a dud, it is a voluntary system that nobody is

going to join, but it says, give it a go. They also make the point it is

often said by politicians who don't want to interfere in the press when

they interfere in the press that they talk about Edward Snowden and

the leaks from the US intelligence operative to the Guardian?

Politicians are jumping up and down calling for the Guardian to be

prosecuted. If we are wondering idly what the kind of story the

politicians might not want to read you have an example. For instance,

this is exactly the kind of story I would suggest the politicians would

prefer not to see. That is about politicians claiming for their

energy bills. It is a painful one because people are feeling the pain.

It is that thing of one rule for them. They will say it is in the

rules, but it is useful that we note nevertheless. We pay the energy

bills of 340 of them. Maybe people will wonder why MPs are less keen on

interfering in the energy market because it does not affect them. I

would like to go to the Sunday Times report on the union problems in

Scotland. The Unite union has joined an unholy trinity of the European

Union and the human rights act as a hate figure. They have now got

access to at least part, possibly the whole document, that Labour

prepared. A private enquiry. They have taken out some of the most

damning bits. I read the whole report in the summer. They have left

out bits that show a rather differently, but there is no doubt.

Why did we not read the whole thing in the mirror? I read it and

reported it and wrote about it, but I did not have the whole copy. This

is not surprising? No, they are running a campaign and it is about

Grangemouth and what happened in the Labour Party. The Unite union is a

major force on the left. They are mobilised in a way political parties

used to be. They are mobilised to get people selected for the party,

more labour people. Ed Miliband once trade unionists to join the Labour

Party as individuals. Be careful what you wish for. But then at

Grangemouth Unite was accused of using bully boy tactics. Who has got

the leverage? Is it a tax exile in Switzerland who is threatening to

shut the plant completely or a bunch of workers? But going to people's

houses with effigies of rats? There was an issue of terrorising people

in that family, absolutely, but the people who sat them would not have

had to face the consequences. It is about making people in companies see

the consequences of their decisions. Now to a lighter subject, the

National Theatre. Last night was a fantastic night at the National

Theatre and this astonishing Roll Call of great names from Judi Dench

and Helen Mirren and so on. There is nothing more to say except, isn't it

great? The only other thing one might say is that, do you think it

is fair manner as the editor of the Evening Standard and a Londoner,

that Londoners get 15 times per head the amount for arts than anywhere

else in the country. People can come to London, if you want excellence

then audiences will follow. I won't ask you this! You will get a

different answer! It is a moment of celebration. Kevin, you have another

story from the Observer about Pakistan, very serious story

potentially. They are trying to negotiate with the Taliban. Yes, it

is the leader of the Pakistan Taliban, Hakimullah Mehsud, he was

assassinated by a US drone, controversial in itself because of

the number of civilians who died, but the attack now is that the

Pakistan Government are hoping to negotiate with him and they are

saying that killing him have made it more difficult. You wouldn't shed

tears for this guy, but the connotations can be extreme. So this

puts America back in the freezer. That's right. There is a serious

problem with the Taliban and maybe there was never going to be a deal

because they are so medieval in the way they approach modern life, but

this could be totally counter-productive. There is a long

history of this. In a sanctimonious way I said we are not going to talk

much about Sven, but we cannot resist. You have got Ulrika's view,

Nancy coming in, and I believe this was a book about football! Everybody

is interested in Nancy and the bit I think I would find particularly

delicious in this is the threat that Nancy is not going to take this

lying down. The real division in life is between those who need

surnames and those who don't, simply, Nancy. One last story is on

Twitter. There is now atwitter parlous, I right? Yes, and it is

topped by Justin Bieber who has more followers than Barack Obama. David

Cameron is on about half a million, Ed Miliband on about 250 million but

in Britain the people with the biggest figures are One Direction.

You cannot push me up to the top because I'm not on Twitter at the

moment. How do you exist? Because I would get into trouble almost every

day. Thank you for not getting us into trouble, and now to the weather

which has been brisk, wild and beautiful, that is the weather I

have seen in the south-east, but sadly there are probably more dreary

days ahead. The past 24 hours has certainly been

wild, some strong winds underneath this cloud with persistent rain and

stole the risk of flooding across parts of the north-east. Strong to

gale force wind initially easing down through the afternoon so

becoming less blustery and the frequent showers we have to the west

will gradually eased down as well. Many dry and bright, particularly in

eastern areas but not particularly warm. This rain pushing its way

eastwards, around the coast and the Channel Islands with gale force

winds for a time. Many of you will be waking up tomorrow morning to

some frost on the ground but lovely blue skies overhead. The wind and

rain will clear, a few showers in northern Scotland and the north of

Wales tomorrow, but the most there will be sunny skies throughout. The

brightest day of the week, because for the rest of the week there will

be showers and blustery winds, but nothing unusual for November.

Told you! Few musicians enjoy the global fame and lasting success of

Sir Elton John. Of all the great showmen, he's one of the hardest

workers, constantly touring and producing new albums, the newest of

which - The Diving Board - has been compared to his 1970s heyday. What's

perhaps less well known is that Elton started life as a classical

musician playing Mozart and Bach at the Royal Academy of Music. He's

never forgotten that early help, spending literally millions on

helping young musicians, and most recently funding a magnificent new

organ, which takes pride of place in the main hall. When we met there

recently to discuss his life and music, Elton told me what compelled

him to become such a unique organ donor. Because the one they had was

absolutely useless and it had been redundant for many years. Now they

have a brand-new organ which is magnificent sounding. It is very

modern looking and they have something forever. The last one was

a disaster so I wanted to put that right. The Academy has given me so

much. You also fund scholarships here, don't you? Yes, in 1988 I came

here aged 11 and I went to school Monday to Friday, came here on

Saturday, played the piano and sang in the choir and did theory and

orals and met some wonderful people but rock 'n' roll had just

happened. My hands are such that I was never going to make a classical

pianist. Your fingers are not too long? You need beautiful pointed

fingers and I didn't have that, and I didn't really have the desire.

Once I heard the piano being played in a different sort of way, which

was alien to anybody who taught here... So you were coming out of

Bach? Yes, Mozart, Bach, Chopin into Jerry Lee Lewis but I have never

forgotten the skills I learned here. In The Diving Board, you talk about

yourself at 16, I wonder what kind of person you were? I was very shy,

I had a semiprofessional band and I played the organ, the Vox

Continental. I knew I wasn't cut out to be a classical musician so I

followed my instincts and my instincts were right but I had to

fight along the way to get there. I didn't have a lot of encouragement

from my Father, my mother encouraged me all the time but I had to fight

tooth and nail to get where I was. The academy helped give me that

ambition. I think you were similar to David Hockney in some respects, a

working-class boy given the skills which enables you to do something

different. Exactly, it enabled me to have that knowledge of chord

structure, harmony, choral work. You play the wonderful composers here.

Your new album is all about fame and reflecting on fame, how much is this

an attempt to go back to the first few albums? It was an accident in a

way because my producer suggested I make a record with piano and drums

as a template and I have never really made a record like that.

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome end to -- Elton John.

We went into the studio with a batch of lyrics. I went in with a bass

player and a drummer and it just flowed out of me and it was very

relaxing to not have the incumbent of other musicians around you.

Consequently I think I am playing better and singing better on this

record when I have ever done before. I don't ever want to stop

learning and there is still room for improvement. You are part of a

generation of rockers and you have to find new ways of writing relevant

music for this age group, can you reflect on that? I don't think it is

relevant, to be honest. I don't think my melodies and songs are

relevant to the current generation. I am not really interested in not

any more, I don't have to chase the charts any more, I don't have to

have a top ten record. I can just do what I like and that is a tremendous

asset for a musician when you are 66. I have the freedom not to care

about that any more. Talk about your extraordinary relationship with

Bernie Taubin. He sends you the lyrics and then what happens? It is

kind of an act of God in a way that we have never been in the same room

writing a song and yet it is still as fresh as it was all those years

ago. He pleased with the recent albums? He is elated. He was never

big on the Rocket Man. He thought they were great although he thought

I took the costumes too far. I was having the time of my life and he

thought they detracted away from the songs and I think critically they

did, perhaps. Now, one is entering the twilight years, and the

recognition is coming that they were great songs anyway but I was having

the time of my life will -- the time of my life. You are also

one of the great gay icons and I am just wondering how much David

Furnish has changed you as a person. Tremendously. A relationship with me

before that was never a 50/50 relationship, I was always a hostage

taken. David has taught me so much about relationships, about

confrontation, honesty, genuine love. We have been together 20 years

this week and it has been an amazing journey. We are still learning about

each other. When I got sober in 1990I had to start learning how to

live all over again, and I was learning to process life as it

comes. Now you have your own family. Someone who knows you told me to ask

you about Zachary because he is about to go to school for the first

time next year. He will go in 2015, but I have got to make sure I am

there, I will take him and pick him up. I don't want to be in another

part of the world playing concerts, I want to be there for him. It is

all them now. You think you have learnt everything and then these

beautiful creatures, long and you cannot believe the amount of Love

you feel for them. I am very optimistic about the world, I think

we are in good hands, the world is changing, dominoes are slowly

falling. In what way? People are being more tolerant and accepting of

people 's collar, people 's religions. That does not apply

everywhere. Northern Ireland was not solved in a day, it was done by

diplomacy, bargaining and discussion. Talking about it. Since

the Diana moment, you have had to cope with the burden of being a

national treasure, probably in international treasure, do you feel

the weight of that? Freddie Mercury said I looked like the Queen Mother

on live aid! I sometimes feel I am the acceptable face of homosexuality

and if that is the case I will use that to break down barriers. I am

going to Russia at the beginning of December. That might be slightly

tricky, given what is going on there. I have been going there since

1979. I don't see the point of not going. You go there and try to break

down some walls and try to talk to people and bring people together

with music. I am a musician, I bring people together, they don't care who

is gay or straight, and when you are in that concert hall it is like

going back to Belfast in the crazy horrible days. People came together

and forgot their troubles. Music and sport are the common denominator is

that can do that. In my life I have had the ability to heal a lot of

wimps. Thank you. an interesting and thoughtful man. The organ was also

funded by the percussionist Ray Cooper. The legend of John F.

Kennedy fascinate historians. Not only historians. David Miliband

returns to London to give a lecture on the relationship between the US

and Britain. Good morning. Good morning. In this lecture you make a

great play of Kennedy's support for the European project. It was

remarkable. JFK is famous for many things, but not in my understanding

with his engagement in the foundation of the European Union.

Doing research for this lecture it became clear he was passionate about

the integration of Europe and Britain's place in Europe. One of

his key advisers says, without Britain, the European Union is

lacking it lodestone. He was talking about the pool for democracy in

Europe. In your lecture you do not explain very much where democracy is

going to fit into Europe. Before he went into government he was setting

the agenda. He said a Democrat looks at foreign policy. He says, Europe

is integrating, but around the rest of the world is independence. Today

we are dealing with independent countries that cannot actually hold

a ring. The European lesson he drew was a different one. It was not

about democracy, it was about delivering. That is the lesson, the

European Union needs to expand its economy, it has to do trade and

investment partnerships with the US. You are a very lone voice. There is

a drive for independence inside Europe and northern Europe. It is

gaining in strength. You are right, the Kennedy model of more and more

integration is under challenge from a splintering. From my point of view

now living 3000 miles from London if Europe is going to have a voice in

the world, and Britain, it is not that we subsume ourselves into the

European Union, it is we are stronger with a more effective

European Union. That is why JFK's warnings do not split Europe. It

builds up Europe as a partner of the US as an important message. Can I

turn to the International Rescue. I thought the Thunderbirds had taken

over when you introduced me in that way. The biggest crisis is Syria and

people have turned away from it a bit. This is an apocalyptic crisis.

It is a defining crisis. Syria is dissolving before our eyes. At least

one in three, possibly one into, Syrians have been displaced from

their homes. The siege on the neighbouring countries is immense.

They have had 20% of the population increased. The number of refugees in

Lebanon is like the whole of Britain moving to America. With the

announcement of polio this week, what you have got is an absolute

dissolution and the world if anything is turning away. This

chemical weapons thing is being sorted out so we do not need to

worry about it. For an organisation like mine, 800,000 Syrians are

dependent on health care from us. We have two smuggle it across the

border. 300,000 young Syrians who are refugees in Lebanon have got no

education. That is the kind of issue that is energising me and inspiring

me. Is this big enough if not well handled to upend Turkey and Israel?

Propping up the neighbouring states, often the ally states, NATO and

Jordan and the long-term ally of the West, but Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon and

Jordan are under siege at the moment. Unless they get support on

the scale of the Marshall plan in the 1940s, you can see them

buckling. That is an area where the humanitarian challenge has big,

political consequences. It is important to warn people about that.

Can I turn to another foreign affairs issue. You talked about your

drive to get the Taliban to negotiate in Afghanistan early on.

What is your feeling about the latest drone strike killing the

leader? It is a classic case of an own goal the West does again and

again. They say they have got contacts Lower down the chain who

they say will be more engaged. I have got to be careful about what I

about this. 2000 villages around Afghanistan we are delivering

services to and my priority is for the safety of my staff. I have to be

careful about what I say. But for ten years there has been a vicious

and bloody battle that has cost many lives. A lot of people are thinking,

in 2014 we can pull out. But on a humanitarian level we have got to

surge into Afghanistan. If we spend 0.1% of what is being spent on the

military under humanitarian side, we can make a difference. The American

bill is $10 billion a month. If we spent 0.1% of that on education and

health, the basics of a decent society, that is where the future of

Afghanistan is. It is one of the poorest countries in the world. Let

me bring you back to a domestic issue. You were involved in the idea

of the living wage and your brother has been suggesting that firms paid

a living wage and be reimbursed by the government. I think it is

encouraging to see real ideas coming through in politics. The

organisation is doing a lot of things to organise people outside

politics conventional. Now conventional politics is picking it

up. All across the western world the issue of how people in the middle

and the lower end of the income scale is going to get benefit is the

issue. The squeezed middle, the break between economic growth and

the prosperity of the ordinary person is the issue. It is the issue

in America and Europe. I think the idea that we can build on the

minimum wage which sets a national minimum and then say sector by

sector you build up a living wage, I think it is a powerful idea. But we

see the old politics coming back in the crisis of the Unite union. When

you look at that do you have a shiver? Does it remind you of the

1970s and the 1980s? Is it a big issue for the label party? It is so

big that it is right to reform relationships with the unions.

Working people have an important state and it is important to bring

them in, but old politics has no place. Is it right to talk about

what your father said in the papers saying that he was somebody who

hated Britain. I thought it was hateful. My dad was taken away from

us nearly 20 years ago in 1994 and at the same time he has been taken

away from us what he left. What he left can never be taken away from

me. He left memories of love and fun and engagement and what it meant to

be a close family. On the one hand it was hateful, but then I thought

not even the Daily Mail can take my memories away from me. It must have

been hard for my mum. But for me he was a dad and I know he loved

Britain and that is what is important. So do I add it is nice to

be back. Imagine you have an illegitimate baby and you are taken

in by nuns and you are made to work to atone for your sin. Your child is

taken and sold for cash to anonymous Americans and there is nothing you

can do. You spend the rest of your life wondering and hoping. This

sounds like fiction, but it is a true story that happened relatively

recently. Philomena was written by and style Steve Coogan with Judi

Dench playing the lead character. Her search in old age for the child

who has been stolen from her is the core of this film. You abandoned him

as a baby. I did not abandon my child. He will be 50 today. You must

be Philomena. I did not like that word. You are a journalist. I used

to be. But what if he died in Vietnam or came back with no legs or

lived on the street? Do not upset yourself.

When we met earlier I asked Steve Coogan why he took up this

particular project and what it was like to add opposite Dame Judi

Dench. I was absolutely petrified, but I knew I would not get another

chance to play this role. Nobody would offer me this, so I gave it to

myself. I told the director to keep an eye on me. When you look at her

she looks very different. She does not look like the iconic Judi Dench.

At the end of the day they returned her, but during the day I felt I was

hanging about with a little Irish lady. After that I was starter. We

are having a private conversation. No need to be rude, she is a nice

person. You should be nice to the people on the way up because you

might meet them on the way down. I thought you were anti the Catholic

hierarchy and probe the spiritual faith. It was very important to me

in the criticisms of the church, it would have been preaching to the

converted. It would have not been inclusive. In all the scandals that

have engulfed the church, it was those people who lead these

diligent, dignified, quiet and unremarkable lives I wanted to

represent. How did the Catholic Church respond? As an institution

they have not responded. They sent us a few warnings and legal missives

early on. You have a Catholic background yourself. I found it

quite emotional to read the story and quite compelling. It is about a

mother and a son and we all have mothers. I also thought it was

something that would chime with people. It was a way to explore

ideas of faith and secularism within two main characters. Because it is

about the Catholic Church it is about Ireland. I was raised a

Catholic and I have a lot of Irish ancestry. I felt like I could talk

about it and write about it. The conclusion is that the woman of

simple faith has more to teach you and vice versa. Absolutely, I am

trying to talk about the limitations of cynicism. It is a surprisingly

non-cynical film. I have made my living by being cynical in a way. It

is a short-term solution, it is an aspirin that does not cure the

underlying illness, but it struck me there are so many films at the

moment that is style over substance. To say something sincere and

authentic is the abnormal thing to do. That is one of the things that

motivated me. Are you going to be haunted by Alan Partridge for the

rest of your life? Is he going to grow old alongside you? The short

answer is yes. As the character has developed he has become more similar

to me. He has become richer. He was conservative early on, but we have

made him much more touchy-feely conservative. What is it like in

there? Scary, stressful, lots of shouting, a lot like being married

again. There is a crazy person running around with a gun, so a lot

like being married again. You were part of this campaign, is it a done

deal now? No, the shame about the whole thing is the polarisation of

the argument that has taken place because it should have been a

grown-up discussion and what is sad is that the newspapers, the ones

against the Royal Charter, have portrayed it in a simplistic way.

Harold Evans who is respected by most journalists said the way the

press had misrepresented it had been staggering. I can see why the

newspapers are worried. If I sue Private Eye for invasion of privacy

or whatever and I have no real case and it is a rubbish case and I am

beaten in court, they now have to pay my fees. Yes, but if they join

the Royal Charter... Let me give you an example. If Private Eye had been

a member of the self-regulation back in the day that the Royal Charter is

proposing, if they had been a member of that back in the day when they

were sued by James Goldsmith, who nearly bankrupted him, they would

have been protected. Do you think there is a chance of any of the big

newspaper groups coming under the Royal Charter now? I hope it gets

away from this... It has become an atrocious war now rather than a

grown-up conversation. I hope we can go beyond that because it is what

the public want, and there has been a vote in Parliament between our

democratic representatives. They have diminishing options and their

behaviour at the moment is like a recalcitrant teenager who keeps

shouting that it is an fair and all you have asked him to do is tidy his

bedroom. The Royal Charter to bring -- begin

the process of press regulation was agreed last week. It's going to be

printed on vellum, no less, that's calf skin though the calf has died

long since. Then the slow process of imposing the system on Britain

extremely reluctant newspapers begins. Parliament and the public

support the new system but most of the press regards it as dangerous

political interference. Which way we go is a genuinely important moment

for Britain, and the woman in charge - Maria Miller - joins me now. They

have their own system now, IPSOS, are you going to make them join?

There is complete agreement that self-regulation should be overseen

by a set of principles in the Royal Charter. Both the government and the

press agree with that. The most important thing happening now is for

the press to go forward with their own self-regulatory body. It cannot

be self-regulatory if it is a body they will not join, can it? Are you

happy to see how that goes? Self-regulation has to be determined

by the industry. The industry are setting up their own self-regulatory

body and the only role of the government was to oversee this put

in place with a set of principles that will guide that. If their body

is seen to work, as it were, the Royal Charter body, it doesn't need

to happen at all presumably? No, the self-regulatory body needs to happen

and the press need to show they are making real progress with the

signing and apologies when things go wrong. But if they do, you won't

make them? You won't make them join the body? No, in a country with

freedom of the press which is an integral part of our system, it is

important to have a self-regulatory approach. This seems to be a change

of tone, from people who were saying if the press do not join there will

be swingeing fines. That is not what you are saying? I want to guard

against some of those people who were trying to foist upon this

country statutory regulation, and ultimately that is what was

happening in March of this year. I'm afraid too many people in Parliament

were free to talk about... And I think the press are pushing forward

with this. So nothing else needs to happen if this works? Ultimately

there are opportunities for the press to be able to be recognised

and I would encourage them to look at that because it means they can

get the sort of incentives around costs. Another is a -- an

organisation like Hacked Off will be disappointed to hear that. Leveson

said very clearly that success would be a system where we have the press

going with us and I hope they will see the Charter is an opportunity to

demonstrate to people who read their paper is that they take

responsibility very seriously indeed in terms of the way they print it

and when errors and mistakes are made that they have a system of

redress in place. I think what is other contagious about being

recognised under the Royal Charter is that it would involve having a

low-cost form of arbitration in place, the sort of thing the Dowler

family were calling for. If I were a newspaper editor, I would say the

disadvantage of feeling the politicians were standing behind

this process is so great that I would prefer to take my chance in

court, you are comfortable with that? I think that is

misunderstanding the role of the Royal Charter. One of the reasons we

didn't take the press Charter forward is because it didn't exclude

ministers from the process. We want to make sure the process is

absolutely outside of the political process, that is why it didn't

exclude ministers from the process. We want to make sure the process is

absolutely outside of the political process, that is wired to set up

through a Royal Charter, why the Royal Charter can only be varied if

everyone agrees. If the press system works, the Royal Charter is

redundant really? Yes, subject to them doing it. Can I ask you about

another issue, Grant Shapps said some pretty swingeing things about

the BBC recently, basically there has to be radical reform or you will

lose a big chunk of your licence fee. Do you agree with that? I want

to see the BBC doing what they are doing now, looking at a root and

branch review. All the issues that have come to the surface in the last

year have shown a weakness in understanding of the relative roles

of the two different elements of the BBC. The work that Tony Hall has put

in place to look at governance I think is exactly the right thing to

be focusing on now. Other issues around licence fees are four Charter

renewal which is some way off in the future. Can I ask you about some

other questions firstly the discrepancy of per capita funding

for arts in this country, it is 15 times different from people in

London and elsewhere. It cannot go on, can it? You are absolutely

right. It is something we have inherited, something we are doing

something about. The arts Council have been increasing the amount that

goes outside of London but we are also looking in a more detailed way

at the figures you are quoting because you are right about the per

head funding, but when you look at the per visit funding the figure is

very different. London is a huge Magnum photographers and important

for our creative industries. I went to the National Theatre last night

to see the anniversary of that incredible institution, which has

been the heart of some of our great successes both in film and

broadcast. We are in the middle of prize-giving season across the arts

at the moment and everybody is saying the Turner prize this year is

the best for many years. Any reflections on that, who might win,

what kind of art is on show there? I wouldn't ever want to pre-empt that

sort of event but I think we are seeing a renaissance of Britain in

arts and culture, not just domestically within our own shores

but internationally and that is what I am using to take Britain around

the world and to sell Britain around the world. Maria Miller, thank you.

Now, the news headlines. The former Foreign Secretary David Miliband has

accused the world of turning away from the crisis in Syria, which he

described as apocalyptic. He told this programme the country is

dissolving before our eyes. David Miliband warned that the refugee

crisis was at a critical point on the borders of neighbouring

countries and that a new Marshall plan was needed for the region. That

is all from me for now, the next news on BBC is at one o'clock. Now a

brief look at what is coming off immediately after this programme.

You have heard the headlines on Plebgate, can we trust the police?

The main author of the Hillsborough reports think we cannot. And put the

swastika be a symbol of peace? Join me at ten o'clock.

Sarah, a very different tone on press regulation than we have been

hearing up to now from the culture secretary? It seems we are all after

the same thing, which is effective self-regulation and it is just the

mechanism so I think it is very interesting if there is room for

flexibility. I quite welcomed it. To give self-regulation ago, that is

where you are? Yes but the Royal Charter has an important role to

play to set a framework for the press regulation to be viewed

within. I think there is not perhaps as much difference between where the

government has been and where the press is. This is the most

consummate tree tone we have heard for a long time on this, would you

agree? It sounds like it is getting to a breakthrough. Press is so much

an important part, and I think we need to see the goodwill coming from

them as well. You would be happy to give independent self-regulation as

proposed by the newspaper industry and magazines, you would be prepared

to give that a go? No, I want to seek independent self-regulation

within the context of a Royal Charter. I'm afraid that is all we

have got time for this morning. Join me again at the usual time next

week, a special extended programme for remembrance Sunday when I will

be speaking to to the Chief of the Defence Staff, to veterans of the

Second World War, we'll have some live music, and an interview with

actor Rupert Grint. So lots to look forward to, but for now, a very good

morning!