10/11/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Remembrance Sunday. It's a serious day, when we reflect

on war - those who die to keep us safe - but also war's brutalising

effect. This week, for the first time since the Second World War, a

British soldier has been convicted of murdering an enemy captive. It is

a difficult issue, and we'll be talking about that. But mainly we'll

be remembering heroes. If only today was just about history. And joining

me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, the Lib Dem peer,

Baroness Shirley Williams, and the editor of The Spectator magazine,

Fraser Nelson. The pull-out from Afghanistan is the biggest

logistical exercise for UK forces since the Second World War came to

an end. Once that's done, where are the Army's next challenges? To talk

about that and to reflect on what Remembrance Day means for the

services, I'll be talking to the new head of the Army, General Sir

Nicholas Houghton. But we're going to talk too about the job of

politics, which is to prevent future war. With talks in Geneva failing,

just a few hours ago, to conclude a deal over Iran's nuclear ambitions,

I'll also be joined by the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, who has

spent the last 24 hours with his American and Iranian counterparts

battling to reach an agreement that would enable the West to lift

economic sanctions. To bring Iran in from the cold. What happens now?

This year marks the 70th anniversary of Bomber Command's biggest raid on

Germany. One of the most hotly-debated aspects of British

warfare in the Second World War was the aerial bombardment of Germany by

the RAF. Was it right? Did strategic bombing shorten the war or did it

strengthen German resolve? The war historian, Sir Max Hastings, and

ex-RAF gunner, Bernard Mason, are here to discuss all that. Bletchley

Park is a symbol of the sheer genius and the mind-boggling hard work that

was so vital in winning that war. Sophie Raworth has been talking to

two Bletchley veterans about code-breaking and keeping secrets.

And from Hogwarts to gang wars. Rupert Grint will be telling me

later about his theatre debut, and why life after Harry Potter lost its

magic for a time. We were out in the real world. It was a scary time.

Plus, we have some good music. An arrangement by Benjamin Britten,

perhaps most famous for his War Requiem. All that coming up soon on

this special, extended programme. First, the news with Sian Lloyd.

Authorities in the Philippines fear as many as 10,000 people may have

died in the devastation caused by Typhoon Haiyan. The storm is one of

the most powerful on record and hit the central islands especially hard.

Huge rescue operation is underway. As rescue teams begin to reach the

communities, the storm hit hardest, the picture and faults of waves as

high as trees and panicked escapes through rising floodwaters. This is

one of six central Philippine islands devastated by the super

typhoon. People of all ages are shaken by what they have seen. This

man says his family fled for shelter. I thought our neighbours

did the same, he says. They did not. Despite mass evacuation efforts

before the storm, bodies lined the streets, covered in any thing people

can find - tarpaulin, clots, sheets of metal which have blown off roofs.

Most of the victims drowned or were crushed under collapsed buildings. I

was so blessed because I am still alive. I told my husband to just

save our baby and forget me. People here have no clean water, no

electricity and very little food. The relief operation needed is fast.

Helicopters are bringing supplies but officials are struggling to give

it to them and pollution is widespread. The United States is

sending ships and planes and other governments have offered

assistance. Some areas are isolated by broken power lines and blocked

roads. The dates of all communities is not yet known. -- the states.

Talks on Iran in nuclear programme have ended without agreement. There

were expectations of a breakthrough. There were positive

indications that genuine progress had been made. Discussions are

scheduled to be resumed later this month. The Queen will lead the

Remembrance Sunday commemorations from Whitehall this morning. 10,000

military veterans will join the Prime Minister and leading

politicians for the two-minute silence to remember fallen service

men and women. Ed Miliband has said that a Labour government would ban

payday lenders from advertising during children's television

programmes. The party leader wants him to face the same restrictions as

gambling and junk food companies. That is all from me for now. Thank

you. Now to the papers. The Sunday Times has the trade union story

which is beginning to play Ed Miliband. In the Observer, a story

about falsified cancer records. A really big scandal hitting the NHS.

They are also talking about one of the Greenpeace activists held in

Russia. In the Sunday Telegraph, a story about a new green tax. That

was all on the programme too big to go but it has been rediscovered by

the Sunday Telegraph. In the dependent, an end to ageing? That is

not a reader offer. Unfortunately. In the Sunday Mirror, energy firms

to pay back ?2 billion to the rest of us. They are taking that as a

major triumph for the newspaper and the campaign against overpriced

energy bills. And with me to review the papers are Shirley Williams and

Fraser Nelson. You have chosen probably the most poignant of the

wartime related stories, which is in the Sunday Times. This is a touching

story about a boy of 12, who lied his way into the army at the age of

12. He pretended he was 16. Within a few weeks of being recruited, he was

sent to the Somme, when no less than 60,000 people died on the very first

day. This young man managed to get himself there. His mother was

outraged. She got hold of the War office and got him sent back. This

young man had seen some of the most awful things. It is an extraordinary

story. One thing important to remember on Remembrance Sunday, it

is not just the deaths or injuries on a particular day, for people like

Andy, who lost three limbs very recently in Helmand province, it is

a lifetime sentence. Many people suffer for the rest of their lives.

You have chosen an extraordinary photographic record of this. It is

funny how this Sunday we remember. There was one amputee for every

person killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. Bryan Adams, he has taken some

extremely pertinent photographs. This is a marine who accidentally

stood on an IED. Every day in the House of Commons you read out -

every Wednesday - those who died. The amputees do not get the same

publicity. This photo spread in the Sunday Times Magazine shows it. The

proceeds are going to combat stress, which is all psychological

injuries after the war. Not all those wounded have physical things.

The IED is an inexpensive and devastating weapon. We think about

machine guns but this is colossally effective and deeply cool. We talk

about the front pages and the big stories. Also stories are bubbling

under the whole time which are more important. You have chosen one. We

tend to get bored with scandals about banking. I think we thought

last year we would get the better of them with people coming forward and

admitting they had fixed the live-born rate. This is the next big

scandal coming up. 12 traders have been suspended -1 might call them

sacked - for beginning to fix the foreign exchange rate. Is nobody

ever learning? Do we have to go from one scandal to the next? This is

being - ?3 trillion a day. It was unregulated. It was not actually

breaking the law. It is like MPs expenses - it may be technically all

right but if it is seen as morally deplorable they will face huge

fines. A lot of people on holiday are paying more than they are asked

to. It looks like it will be another climate change scandal in banking. A

lot of security related stories. You have chosen one about Theresa May.

After not quite getting there last week, she is back with a vengeance.

She wants to stop jihad he's going to mosques, which are regarded as

radical. Hardly a Sunday goes by without Theresa May clamping down in

one way or another. She was at awards for politician of the year.

She got an award for Boris Johnson. Do you think she will eventually

become Prime Minister? She has been the action woman of the government.

I have got to pick up on that one. Crime has been falling for several

years. It is entirely a function of the fact crime group has fallen. The

Home Office budget has gone down a lot. The Home secretaries explode.

Theresa May has been rather effective. She is appealing to the

right wing of the Conservative Party. Not a foolish thing to do at

the moment. She is the bookmakers favourite to succeed David Cameron.

Let's move onto another story - green taxes. There is a huge storm

in the far east, utter devastation. A terrible picture. The worst

recorded. 10,000 dead and many more to come. It is huge. You connect

this with climate change. Others do not. In the Sunday Telegraph, the

top story, new green tax threat. Let's be quite direct about this.

Where there are climate change, one effect is the huge increase in the

number of devastating weather crises. That is what we see here.

The science shows the opposite. You are intensities of storms recently.

It has not been the case in the last few hundred years - the opposite has

been the case. I am going to close that off now. I want to say that Ed

Davis is absolutely right to say we have two have green taxes. They need

to come out of income tax. You cannot hit people with big families

and not much income and treat them as people who should not be

protected. We are now going to move on to a wonderful woman Malala. In

Pakistan half of the schools are run privately. The government is

incapable of doing that. In her book, she describes how her dad was

curious how the book by Salman Rushdie was banned. I think she has

her answer. Herbert is hardly Satanic verses but it is critical of

religious attics have taken over dashes-macro fanatics who have taken

over these establishments. Private schools are the answer. Let's move

if we may from one band conversation to another will stop this is George

Bush and Tony Blair. More is to come out. It is the argument about

blocking the memos from the Iraq war. The Iraq war was a disaster by

any standards and it is important that we know why. I think of all the

things to ban, this is a big mistake. White

third of adults are now being pestered by their kids to take out

payday loans, because they are so wooed by the adverts. It is

interesting, this warms to his theme about the cost of living and waging

war against companies he regards as a responsible. It will claim the

U-turn on energy companies as a victory for him. Yes, when you read

it, they are saying it is over payments they will return. Thank

you. It was the deal that terrified Israel and infuriated hardliners in

Iran but in the end at the last minute, it didn't happen. Senior

ministers from all over the world including William Hague had gathered

in Geneva for talks meant to rein in Iran 's nuclear weapons ambitions in

return for an end to sanctions. Hopes rose, and rose, but right at

the last minute something went wrong. What was it? It's just a few

hours after the talks ended, and Mr Hague joins me now from Geneva. What

went wrong? A great deal went right. This is fundamental to international

peace and security over the next few years so we have two persist. These

talks have been very detailed, about every aspect of Iran 's nuclear

programme. They have made a lot of progress and there is no doubt

Secretary John Kerry said during the night that the parties are closer

together than before we had these talks so we haven't been wasting our

time. It is a formidably difficult negotiation of course and we are

going to reconvene these talks in ten days in Geneva and try to

maintain that momentum. It is vital to keep the momentum and there is a

deal on the table and it can be done. Would it be right to say that

the big problem is proving that enrichment for civil purposes cannot

be used for nuclear weapons? Naming that is the big problem we have

got? That is right and of course it is a very big problem. There is a

lack of trust of course about Imran 's intentions and nuclear

programme. Over many years they have hidden things from the rest of the

world, they have disregarded the resolutions from the United Nations

Security Council, disregarded the International Atomic Energy Agency,

so there is bound to be a terrible lack of trust and that means we have

to go over every detail of it, we have to look at every aspect of the

programme and be sure of what would happen in a deal with Iran. One of

the other good things about this is that the so-called E3 plus three

countries are united. We were all saying the same thing to Iran and

supporting the same deal which can be done and that is something for

the Iranians to think about over the next few days. Do you trust the

Iranian negotiators? We have a good relationship, a working

relationship, amicable, personal relationship with the Iranian

Foreign Minister. He is a tough negotiator but he is very

constructive. I do believe that he wants to solve this problem, that he

is out to do a deal, he would like to do a deal with the international

community. After all, Iran is under very serious pressure. This is one

of those cases where sanctions applied by a large part of the world

are having a big impact. It is putting the Iranian leadership and

economy under serious pressure, and as long as there isn't a deal that

pressure will continue. I do believe in his sincerity about it, but there

is a complex power structure in Iran and many different views about this,

just as there are in our own countries. Israel will have relief

and delight that there hasn't been a deal. They are terrified of the

Iranian bomb, do you think a deal will happen in the next few weeks

and that you will be able to get clear guarantees that will satisfy

people like the Israeli Government there will not be an Iranian bomb

any time soon? There is a good chance it will happen in the next

few weeks but there is a formidably difficult negotiation and I cannot

say when it will conclude. We will be trying again on the 20th and the

21st of November so we will keep an enormous amount of energy and

persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal which will

please everybody? No, because compromises will have to be made but

I have discussed things yesterday with Israeli ministers on the

telephone while I have been here in Geneva and put the case for the kind

of deal we are looking at making, and it is in the interests of the

whole world including Israel, including all nations of the world,

to reach a diplomatic agreement that the -- we can be confident in. Let

me take you to an issue closer to home. There is a furious row going

on here about the spying revelations, the fact that so many

of us are being spied on by the Americans using digital cables and

the rest of it. Liam Fox has called for the Guardian to be prosecuted,

who told us all of this, and I am wondering what your view is. That is

a legal matter, something on which the Attorney General decides so you

can see the Government's position on that. You allowed our top three

spooks from security services to be questioned by Parliament very

briefly and they spoke about Al-Qaeda rubbing their hands with

glee, but that wasn't really a proper investigation. It was very

short. A lot of people see that more as a propaganda exercise than a real

act of individuation or interrogation. I think that

committee hearing the other day with the three chiefs of the intelligence

agencies did show to the public how seriously we look at these issues

and the number of terrorist plots against the United Kingdom which

have been detected, defeated or disrupted through the hard work of

our intelligence agencies, and we should pay tribute to them on this

remembrance day as well because a great deal of dangerous and

difficult work goes on to protect this country by the people who work

for our intelligence agencies. People have been able to see that we

take the decisions about any interception of anyone's

communications in a strong and robust legal framework with many

checks and balances. Is that only looking at part of this when you do

it in a public airing? Yes, but the same people appear before the

committee in secret, and it has to be in secret because if we don't,

then terrorists can take advantage of our situation. It is a new

programme to use fibre-optic cables to listen in on everybody's e-mails

and text messages and so forth which is a huge extension of what has been

done in the past. We gather it was not discussed in Cabinet. You were

there, you must have known about it. Why did you not tell your colleagues

about it? It seems extraordinary that something so important to the

privacy of individual British citizens would not have been

discussed. Firstly, I cannot confirm or deny various stories about our

intelligence agencies for very good reasons, even if they are

speculative or not true we cannot make that clear because otherwise

people go on to ask other questions would be damaging to our national

security to reveal, but are these things discussed in Government? Yes,

because myself and the Home Secretary have very important

responsibilities that we take very seriously. But not apparently in

Cabinet or the National Security Council? ? That is because we do

have a particular system for dealing with these things where the Foreign

Secretary and the Home Secretary take those decisions, overseen by

commissioners who are senior judges who report to the Prime Minister on

how we carry out our tasks, and that is the political and legal framework

in which these decisions about intelligence are made. Are they made

in much larger groups? No, but that is because so much of what we do has

to be secret, in trying to protect the country from the threats I have

been referring to. All around the world, senior politicians have been

upset about Angela Merkel finding out the phone has been booked by the

Americans. How would you feel if your phone had been bugged by the

Americans? We all have to anticipate that somewhere, someone is trying to

look at our communications but again, I cannot go into any details

about what we do. I can say that we work closely with other countries

including the European countries to protect their security as well as

our own, and what our intelligence agencies do very often saves lives

in other countries. I have seen many specific instances of that in the

last three and a half years as Foreign Secretary. Are you

personally convinced that the Edward Snowden leaks have caused real harm

to the search for Al-Qaeda terrorists in this country?

Intelligence chiefs were saying the other day that the Edward Snowden

allegations, let me put it that way, have certainly endangered our

national security and made it harder to protect our country and other

countries from terrorist attacks by speculating about our capabilities,

that makes it easier for people who want to evade interception, but are

seeking to damage our country or to kill people, it makes it easier for

them to evade interception. That is something which is very serious. We

are on the edge of the Commonwealth summit in Sri Lanka, not just the

Canadian prime minister but now also the Prime Minister of India has

decided to boycott this because of the accusation made about their

Government at the end of the Civil War. Do you understand that

boycott? We do understand it but we are not joining that. The foreign

minister will be attending, so in the case of some of these countries

although the Prime Minister is not going other representatives will be

going. If we stayed away from this meeting, it would damage the

Commonwealth without changing things positively in Sri Lanka. We need to

be there, we are discussing the future of international

development, and I want to discuss with the whole Commonwealth our

efforts to prevent sexual violence and conflict. Are you going with a

heavy heart? And are you going to read the riot act to some of your

Sri Lankan counterparts? We are going to say that Sri Lanka is in

the spotlight so let's make full use of that, rather than sitting in

London talking about it, we will be in Sri Lanka. The Prime Minister

will be there, I will be visiting places to promote reconciliation in

Sri Lanka, talking about our efforts there to prevent sexual violence in

conflict. It makes more sense to be doing that rather than sitting in

London. In Geneva you have been talking to your Russian

counterparts, have you raised the issue of the Greenpeace activists

who have been banged up for hooliganism? Yes, we have been

raising that over the last six weeks or so since this happened and I

discussed it in the last week with the Russian Foreign Minister. The

Prime Minister has discussed it with President Putin so they are very

clear about our concerns. They have ensured that we have consular access

to the individuals who have been arrested in Russia so we are keeping

in close touch with the people concerned, keeping their families

informed, and the Russians are very well aware of our concerns about

this case. It was horrible yesterday, better today. That could

be my very quick summary of world history. But, in fact, I'm talking

about the weather. Yes, I know. It's all in the detail. So, to get that,

over to Chris Fawkes in the studio. Lots of sunshine in the forecast.

Foremost, there will be sunshine from to dusk. Exceptions will be in

the West. There will be wet weather overnight. An early touch of frost

in the countryside in the north-eastern part of the British

Isles. Eventually we will see milder air flowing in. The 11-13d is pretty

mild in the West. 30 millimetres of rain in the South West of England.

As the rain moves in, it will turn more light and patchy. The skies

will brighten. An improvement the weather for Scotland. There will be

a fair amount of cloud and a fair amount of rain.

Thank you. Well, as we heard in the news, the Cenotaph in Whitehall will

shortly be the focus for the national act of Remembrance. And, of

course, just as important as national act of Remembrance. And, of

And they have been national act of Remembrance. And, of

early morning. Sophie Raworth is on horse guards Parade, where

gathering. Welcome to Horse Guards Parade where

gathering. Welcome to Horse Guards civilians are gathering, getting

ready to civilians are gathering, getting

come from all over the United Kingdom, as well as many

come from all over the United Commonwealth countries right around

the world to be here today. I am joined by someone who is marching

with the Commonwealth War Graves commission, but is also professor of

the history of war at Oxford University. As we look towards next

year and the centenary, how much is the way we remember changing? The

First World War is history. We have a patent derived from the First

World War. We have taken the pattern from one world war and apply it to

all the other walls, which we now think about and remember on

Remembrance Sunday. There is a distinction on history and how we

remember will stop what do you think needs to be achieved? It is not a

single event. For years is a long time to commemorate an anniversary.

It gives an opportunity to increase historical understanding. Almost

everybody in this country thinks it is important that we commemorate the

First World War. A great many of them have little idea about why this

war was caused, where it was bought, extraordinary high levels of

ignorance. -- Ft. What is the legacy for us? Each generation has taken

its own interpretation of this war. We must use it to help us understand

why we go to war at all. What is the purpose and when does it have a

purpose? When does it ceased to have a purpose because the loss of life

has got so high? In 1916, they had had the battle of the Somme and they

felt it was still important to carry on fighting. Thank you for joining

us. The RAF offensive against the cities of Nazi Germany was one of

the deadliest campaigns of World War II. 600,000 Germans died in the

course of Bomber Command's attempt to win the war from the air. More

than 55,000 aircrew lost their lives, over half of Bomber Command's

total number, and one of the highest casualty rates of any fighting unit.

One man who survived the war, and whose memories of that period are

still vivid, seven decades on, is Bernard "Bunny" Mason, who was a

19-year-old gunner in a Stirling Bomber. What were you actually doing

in the plane? I was a rear gunner - tail and C as they used to call us.

-- tail end Charlie. Planes were coming up behind you all the time?

Not so much, fortunately, otherwise I would not be here. I was flying in

Stirling 's. It was the largest aircraft -- the largest of the three

bombers we had. The Stirling unfortunately had its downside.

Unfortunately, due to that lack of altitude, we were pushing it at

13,000 feet will stop with Lancaster, it is 20 plus. -- 13,000

feet. We had good, thick outer close to start with. Latterly, they

provided me with an electric suit. It was very then anti-war it over

your battle dress blouse, etc. -- then and you wore it. You plugged it

in. You plug it into the electrics of the plane? Yes. I cannot remember

where. When flying one day, my foot started to hurt. I realised what had

happened. I had been wearing my flying boots with these slippers in

and the wire had become a bit there and I had to switch it off. You were

an early historian of Bomber Command and you have been very engaged in

the argument about whether it was worth it. Did it shortened the war?

Was it worth the huge loss of life? There are two or three things we had

to remember. There was a time when events in the past are now in the

future. Winston Churchill could see no other way it could carry the ball

to Germany. 1944/45, there were a huge amount of bombers. -- carried

the war to Germany. I wrote a book in 1979 where I was critical of a

lot of things that were done in the bomber offensive. The talk of war

crimes is nonsense. The idea of associating those that did it, who

were incredibly brave, it is perfectly possible to honour the men

who did these things and, at the same time, to feel sorry for the

Germans who have died. Winston Churchill distanced himself from

Bomber Command. In the Bomber Command Memorial, thanks to the

British public and one or two very wealthy people, who kindly donated,

I belonged to a group of ten - we worked well but now we are down to

ten - for the last three and a half years, we have been going around to

various places, airshows, garden centres, signing books and prints

and we have raised ?35,000. So, the atmosphere has changed a bit about

that. We are talking on Remembrance Sunday. What we had to do is to

remember that war is organised confusion. We should honour those

who died even in some of the more controversial and less successful

things that were done during the war and have debates about whether it

was a good or a bad idea on a different day. I was listening to

safely in the centre of town about the lessons we could learn from the

way the First World War started. -- Sophie. What historians much more

distinguished than me are arguing for about the centenary which is

coming up next year, we should not just go the poets root of saying, it

was also awful and stand in cemeteries talking about mud. We

should teach a new generation about why it happened. It is no good

saying it was so wicked to bomb women and children. You had to

explain why it happens and explained that wars are always a mess. -- why

it happened and explain that wars are always a mess. No matter what

rank you were, except, for most part, most of us were billeted in

this and hearts. -- Nissan huts. When it hit he was when you found

that three beds had not been slept in. The hundreds of British troops

who have died in recent campaigns such as Iraq and Afghanistan will be

remembered today, along with the fallen from the two world wars and

many other conflicts. Earlier I spoke to the new Chief of the

Defence Staff, General Sir Nicholas Houghton, about some of the

challenges ahead for the armed forces. But, first, he told me what

Remembrance Day means to him. It is true. In many respects, the armed

Forces have never been held in great esteem by the nation. The purposes

to which we have been put has never been more deeply questioned. As a

nation, today we come together to remember service and to remember

service that has involved sacrifice. That act of remembrance

happens at a number of levels - a national level but also on a very

personal level. People reflect on their own personal losses. From my

own perspective, I spent some time thinking about friends from my own

regiment who have fallen in conflict over the years. Do you think the

Armed Forces - after people leave the service - are properly treated

in this country? In terms of housing and help and so forth. I think this

is an area where we always have to maintain a dynamic overwatch. Within

the Armed Forces, we feel there is a moral duty to our people that never

ends, even when they have formally left the Armed Forces. The battle is

taken on by such things as the National Health Service, social

services and by charities. The vast majority of service people that

leave go on to have second careers and very successful careers. At the

moment, particularly because of the casualties that have arisen from

Afghanistan, there is a particular concern about individuals who have

had life changing injuries. I am confident that what the Armed Forces

have put in place over the last few years genuinely is the state of the

art in terms of what we call the pathways to recovery. We are very,

very careful that a combination of both charitable support and

government support is brought together in a way that ensures there

is constant overwatch of the journey that individual wounded service men

and women make, from the point of winding to the time when they are

settling into civilian life. What do you say to relatives who fear that

once the huge drawdown happens from Afghanistan, things returned to the

Caliban, and it has all been wasted? It is difficult to capture the

strategic benefit of the campaign like Afghanistan in the moment. You

can turn to things. At a local level in Helmand, the individual potential

for individual human lives has been significantly enhanced. You can turn

to the fact that not a single terrorist attack against the Western

world has been launched from Afghanistan in over ten years. I

think the genuine case is one that is better made in retrospect, when

there has been more of a strategic audit of the benefits. There is

always a counterfactual about going into Afghanistan. What might have

happened had we not done it? Afghanistan was in a state of civil

war. There was a very strong chance it would have disintegrated. The

area of ungoverned space across the border between Afghanistan and

Pakistan would have increased. Pakistan might have been

destabilised. That has not happened. We will be leaving

Afghanistan with the chance of fledgling democracy, some prospect

of some prosperity, with the ability of Afghan National Security forces

to provide security in a sovereign sense in turn lead to see more

attempts to make Al-Qaeda in the bud? I am a believer that armed

forces should not, in a binary sense, be at war or in a contingent

posture at home. There are a lot of places in the world that have

potential to become seriously destabilised. Somalia, Yemen, parts

of South Africa. Whereas if we can proactively get in there and use

some of our unique access that British forces enjoyed because

British reputation is very high in these respects, we have an ability

to build institutions, to help train Armed Forces so that they can bring

stability to their own countries. , turned to the terrible story that we

are still seeing the aftermath of, which is sentencing the Marine to

life imprisonment. A lot of newspapers have called for in

clemency, because he had just seen the body parts of his comrades used

as trophies and there were special circumstances. Others say that

murder is murder, life is life. Which side do you come down on? No

serviceman is above the law, the law of the country or the law of armed

conflict. This was a scene -- terrible crime and it would be quite

wrong for the Armed Forces to adopt some special pleading, some special

exemption. We do expect immaculate standards of our people. He had just

seen the body parts of comrades being used as trophies. I accept

that but if we try to put ourselves beyond the law or expect special

provision, then we start to erode the position where we have the moral

ascendancy over our enemies and that is the wrong thing to do. There is a

Jeep process that will lead to sentencing. It is for that process

to determine whether any clemency should be shown in the sentencing.

Whereas I fully understand the views of the likes of Julian Thompson,

they are personal views, not the views expressed from the position of

current authority within the services, where we would not want

our position to be eroded. So you are not ruling out the idea of

clemency through judicial process? No, I am saying those in authority

in the Armed Forces should not request any form of leniency. I

think it is dangerous to do so. We should be immaculate in these

respects, murder is murder. Thankfully it is an exceptional

lax. Are you concerned about the amount of time this took to become

public knowledge? There is a suggestion there was some kind of

cover-up, and the video of this was being passed around almost like

award trophy, and some are calling for an internal inquiry as to

whether this was covered up. I have not myself heard or seen evidence of

the fact that the video has been common knowledge for many months. As

far as I am aware, this thing has only relatively recently

materialised, and due process was initiated as soon as the evidence of

this crime had come to light. Do you think this has stained the Marines'

reputation? No, I stand by the statement couple of days ago when

the verdict was passed. I think by and large the standard of the

Marines is immaculate, and they will be deeply shocked, deeply upset,

they will feel their reputation hit hard but I think they should not

rest on the laurels of their wider competence on quality, but they will

move on from this. We have been talking to Alex Salmond who has been

talking about the division following the potential independence of

Scotland. Are you aware of this? It is not like there will be some sort

of de-merger on the stocks. There is no active planning on what will

happen in the event of Scotland voting for independence. We are

providing objective information and support for the case of keeping the

UK together. Assuming they will have independence, your assets will be

part of that? Wait for the vote. It is not as if suddenly there will be

a crisis and Scotland becomes enemy forces and they have some of their

assets behind our lines. This should be a mature debate, one would hope.

I think the most important thing for the people of Scotland to weigh your

pin their considerations is how much better the security of the UK is

delivered by the maintenance of the United Kingdom's Armed Forces as an

integrated whole rather than attempting to think of separating

out a small fraction. But if the vote goes that way, that is what

will happen. There will be military bases in Scotland and of course the

Trident submarines which will be sent south after the vote. That is

one of the reasons why it is better not to speculate, but to do it more

coolly if that is the scenario which faces us. What about Portsmouth

because there is a worry this was a political decision to buy out the

Scots. If this happens, is it a case that the rest of the UK will rely on

Scotland to provide vessels for the Navy? I don't hold to the view that

the decision on the future of British shipbuilding is one born of

political mandate. It was very much a matter of business Russell --

rationalisation. They have the best depth of skills on the Clyde so it

was driven by a business decision. If Scotland becomes independent, the

rest of UK would rely on them to build all service ships. Would this

decision be revisited if took place? There may have to be some

reconsideration of that if that were to be the scenario. For reasons I

have explained earlier, I don't think that is going to be the most

likely outcome, but I think we live in a world now where it is not the

purposes of the defence budget to underwrite elements of industry. We

will go and get our ships in the place where it makes the most sense

for the British taxpayer in terms of getting the right capability for the

Armed Forces. There will be another ?800 million spent on these two

carriers, do you think you have been lumbered with a political decision

which is now on your budget when there are intense cutbacks

elsewhere? If we could turn the clocks back, might we make a

different decision, it might be that we go for a smaller version of that

carrier, but the more often you change your mind on these things,

the more costly they become. I think it was everybody's view in 2010 at

the last strategic review that these carriers were very useful part of

our future structure, which is postulated on the structure for 2020

and that is the time by which we will have regenerated our carrier

capability. Thank you. And now for something completely

different. By his own admission, Rupert Grint's childhood was ruled

by Harry Potter and Hogwarts. As trainee wizard Ron Weasley, he spent

much of his life from the age of 11 onwards in front of movie cameras.

Recently, Grint has exchanged the film set for the theatre and is

making his stage debut in London's West End. The play in question is a

revival of Jez Butterworth's hit, Mojo. Set in the 1950s, it's a

sinister look at the underbelly of London clubland. Grint plays a

pill-popping hood called Sweets, and when we met recently he told me

about Mojo. It is set in a seedy Soho

nightclub, and I play Sweets, one of the employees who works there. The

club has a singer who does the show a couple of nights a week and he

goes missing. It is pretty violent, fairly foul-mouthed, not most

people's idea of London in the 1950s. How much research did you do?

people's idea of London in the We did tonnes of research and we had

a board of 1950s paraphernalia and the icons of that era. We also met

up with a load of 1950s Soho locals. It was a violent, drunken time in

Soho, one of the notorious places, and your

Soho, one of the notorious places, most vulnerable people in the club.

He is quite a sweet guy. He is kind of the drug man. Handing out the

pills. You are on stage night after night, so it is physically

exhausting and unlike the world of Harry Potter and big films, behind

the set it is not very luxurious and glamorous. It is a different world.

Theatre is something I always ruled out. Too much like hard work! Yes, I

am quite nervous person naturally, and the thought of that much work

seem quite impossible to me. But this came along and it is such a

great script, a great cast. The characters have this unique way of

communicating each other. It is quite hard for the audience to tune

into at first. Harry Potter is in one respect the fantastic stroke of

luck for anyone as an actor, but at the same time it then stops and you

have to reinvent yourself again. Is that how you see it? I suppose that

is the challenge. It was a very strange time. It was basically my

whole childhood. It must have been a funny childhood. It was interesting,

but it became routine because it consumed us. It was this bubble that

we lived in the ten years and it became normal. Suddenly it finished,

it came down to one take and we were out in the real world. It was scary.

You have all gone off in different directions. Daniel Radcliffe had his

kit off in his play, are you doing something similar? In your play, you

are playing a foul-mouthed rocker. It has never been a conscious effort

to find something that detaches me from that role, it has just happened

that way. This is about the birth of ink in America and you are a member

of a band called The Dead Boys. Yes. It was a real band. Yes, the singer

is still very much alive and he was on set when we were filming. What

did he think? He was very pleased, he was even a cameo in the film. It

is daunting, when he was watching offstage. This is the beginning of

the bands coming through the same club. I think it is probably Alan

Rickman's most brilliant part so far. I am impressed with the youth

of Cleveland. You shouldn't be. Why? You seem relatively polite. He is

great. You know him very well. Crazy to see him in such a different

role. Nice to see to see him in such a different

world. It is so thrilling. The Potter fans are part of it. It has

become part of my life over the last ten years. It is like someone asking

for directions now. It is that routine. It is a weird thing but it

is part of it. It is nice to have the support as well. A lot of them

turned up to the show. A mixed audience age wise. Of course. Thank

you for joining us. On Remembrance Sunday, we rightly think of the

bravery of men and women sent into battle - often through no choice of

their own. But, in the Second World War, vital work was done behind the

scenes back home, by those who gathered and de-coded intelligence

on German military plans. The nerve centre of the code-breaking

operation was Bletchley Park in Buckinghamshire - now famous as the

place where the mathematician Alan Turing worked on the German enigma

codes. In the war, it was known as Station X, and Sophie Raworth has

been there to find out more. It is said the work carried out here in

the mansion at Bletchley Park and the hut surrounding it helped to

shorten the war by at least two years. It was an official secret.

Until the 1970s, only a handful of people knew what had gone on here. I

am about to meet two women who trained and worked here during the

war who were both part of the secret army of codebreakers. After I had

done my basic training with the ATS in Wrexham, I was ordered to go to

London, to be interviewed by an intelligence officer, who

interviewed me in German. During the conversation, he said, here is a

rail warrant to Bletchley will stop I had no idea where Bletchley was or

what went on there. That is how I came to be there. You had no idea?

None at all. The following morning, I was taken into the office and

given the official secrets act to read and sign. I signed to say I

would not talk about anything that I saw, read or heard for 30 years. You

were very young at the time? I was 18. I remember going into a small

room. The Petty Officer said, five words. We are breaking German codes.

That is all we knew. Had we known the ramifications of the work we

were doing, it might have been more difficult to keep the secret. There

was this phrase, hush-hush. Quite often people would say to all kinds

of service men, where are you going? They would say, we cannot tell you,

it is hush-hush. It was really rather rude if people were pushing

you once you have said hush-hush. My mother said, you can tell me, I am

your mother. I thought, if I tell her, it'll be all over Birmingham in

ten minutes. She died and never knew what I was doing. My answer to a

question like that was, I am just doing a boring secretarial job. "

story. Tell me about the work you are doing. I was with a group who

worked on registration and callsign order. How many messages did you

have a day? I understood later they were coming in at a rate of 10,000 a

day, roughly. Everyone associates Bletchley Park with Enigma. You were

brought here for training to learn how to use the bombe machine - the

machine that was going to crack it. There were a feud training bombs

here when I arrived. We were trained to use these complicated bombe

machines but we had no idea of what they were actually doing, which was

to replicate Enigma machine and look for the answers. We never knew that.

I never heard the word, Enigma. You work very hard. Younger people

became, not ill but distressed. When I did not feel well, I was sent to a

rehabilitation centre. The irony was, as soon as I arrived, I heard a

doodlebug coming over. It was within doodlebug range and I had to put on

my tin hat and dive under the bed. There was some form of central

heating but it was not very good. The huts had to be sealed at night -

the windows had to be sealed because of light. There was poorer air

separation and it was not pleasant. When you are training, how do you

remember day-to-day life? You had to lives - one at work and one outside

of work. Outside of work, it was a good social life. I found it very

friendly. There was a true menders mixed bag of people, from all walks

of life. Dashes-macro a tremendous mix bag of people. A gramophone

group will stop every now and again, a very good play would be put on.

How they managed to put a play together and work, I do not know,

but they did. We worked hard and played hard. Why was there so much

going on? When Churchill came to visit, he asked about the

recreational side of the setup. When he heard we did not have tennis

courts, he ordered for them to be put in. How much did you know about

the people you were working for, working alongside? Only in recent

years have they been recognised as important people. That is how I have

found it, anyway. So, at the time they were not recognised? They would

disappear into their prospective huts and that is all you knew. The

huts were not named, they were only numbered. We did not know what was

going on behind closed doors. What do you think now you know what those

people did? They were extraordinary and I am very proud to have been, in

a small way, involved in it. There was a moment in the 1970s when it

was no longer an official secret and it became public. You were allowed

to talk about it. What was that like? 30 years after the security

blanket was lifted, they published a book. I said to my husband, this is

the work I did chewing the war. He said, that is very interesting

dear, what is 40? -- during the war. What does it say on your badge?

It says, we also served. We were not part of the war machine that people

knew about but we were here and we did do something. You are both

modest and humble but it is fascinating talking to you both. And

Bletchley Park, for so long shrouded in secrecy, is now open to the

public. Both the veterans Sophie was talking to still regularly help out

there as volunteers. Shirley Williams, your mother was a pacifist

during the war. Is this the day you remember her?

She lost her fiance, paid the price for World War I, and came out with

the contradiction of the air force's carpet bombing. She thought

it was completely unacceptable. We will be hearing some Benjamin

Britten music and he was a pacifist and they knew each other. They

campaigned together to send food out so that children could survive. You

have heard the Chief of defence staff talking about the issue of

clemency for the Marine, what do you think? I think he is right, the law

has got to be seen to be enforced. The Nuremberg trials were writing

what they did with the Nazis but they would have been more plausible

if some of the Russians and Americans and British people had

been tried for crimes. I think he must accept the punishment of the

law. Fraser Nelson, I don't know if you watched the William Hague

interview, what struck you about that? When you raised the issue of

the Greenpeace campaign is being banged up, he does not seem to have

discussed it in Geneva. He said he had discussed it over the last six

weeks. I suspect he is not being as forceful as he could and telling the

Russians it is more acceptable. The most horrific circumstances, it is a

really hard place to be a prisoner. Absolutely, they have been moved to

a different jail but it looks if anything worse than the one before.

I think they are going through the motions, but I hope William Hague

has been more forceful than he appeared to be in his interview.

Thank you. Officials in the Philippines say

that around 10,000 people have died in one province alone after Typhoon

Haiyan hit on Friday. A police spokesman said most of the victims

drowned or they were crushed under buildings. A rescue operation is

under way. Britain has pledged ?6 million to help. International talks

on Iran 's nuclear programme had ended in Geneva without an agreement

being reached. The presence of top diplomats had heightened

expectations of a breakthrough but there were positive indications from

all sides that genuine progress had been made. The Foreign Secretary

said a deal can be done. The parties are closer together than before we

had these talks so we have not been wasting our time but it is a

formidably difficult negotiation and we are going to reconvene these

talks in ten days in Geneva, and try to maintain that momentum. It is

vital to keep the momentum and a deal is on the table. The Chief of

defence staff has said he cannot join calls for clemency towards the

Royal Marine convicted last week of murdering a Taliban prisoner in

Afghanistan. General Sir Nicholas Houghton told this programme that

members of the armed forces were not above the law. That is all. Those in

authority of the Armed Forces should not request leniency, it is danger

to do -- dangerous to do so. Thankfully it is an exceptional act.

That is all from me now. Back to you, Andrew.

Many thanks. This year is the centenary of Benjamin Britten, that

most revered of English musicians -- an exemplary composer, conductor and

pianist. I'm joined now by two illustrious fans of Britten who will

be performing an arrangement by him in a moment. Ian Bostridge, one of

our finest tenors, and Sir Antonio Pappano, director of music at the

Royal Opera House. Welcome. Britain's reputation has gone up and

down over the years. -- Britten. But lately there has been a revival.

Internationally, the name Britten has exploded. There is a break-out

opera in Rome where his music is hardly ever performed. It went over

like a bomb, emotionally, people just got it and I was so heartened

by this. A great new British exports. Yes, drama, poetry, life.

And later you will be playing one of his arrangements, and English folk

song. Yes, 'O Waly Waly' . Everyone will recognise it. I think you have

just been recording the War Requiem? Yes, with Tony and his Rome

Orchestra. It is a piece which is done again and again and with huge

success in cities all over the world. We talked about the bombing

campaign and this was a response to that. Yes, he had a strong visceral

pacifism from the 1930s onwards. You don't just get the Latin setting of

the Requiem, you also get the poem running through it. Yes, with

tenderness and bitterness as well. We will hear that in a moment. Thank

you. I'm afraid that's all we've got time

for this morning. Thanks to all my guests. Join us again next Sunday at

nine o'clock when I'll be talking to the actor Richard E Grant, and the

one and only Oprah Winfrey. In a couple of minutes, BBC One will be

broadcasting the national act of Remembrance from the Cenotaph in

Whitehall. But we leave you with Ian Bostridge and Antonio Pappano. This

is an arrangement by Benjamin Britten of the traditional folk

song, 'O Waly Waly'. Goodbye. # The water is wide, I can-not cross

o'er. And neither have I wings to fly.

Give me a boat that can carry two, And both shall row, my love and I.

# A ship there is and she sails the seas.

# She's loaded deep, as deep can be. # But not as deep as the love I'm

in. # And I know not if I sink or swim.

Love is handsome and love is fine, and love is a jewel when it is new.

But when it is old, it groweth cold and fades away like morning dew. #