24/11/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. Two of the most talked about stories this week. The Monty

Python team back together again. And that extraordinary story about the

Methodist Minister, the Reverend Flowers, whose pastimes included

porn, rent boys, and substances such as horse tranquilliser mixed with

cocaine. Allegedly. The Crystal Methodist, as one paper calls him

today. Not surprisingly, perhaps, he wasn't too good at running a bank.

As the Pythons would put it, he's not a vicar, he's just a very

naughty boy! We'll be talking to one of the Pythons later. And joining me

today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, the Guardian columnist,

Polly Toynbee. And Iain Dale, broadcaster and publisher.

The opportunity for every child to attend a great school is the "civil

rights struggle of our time". So says the Education Secretary who

admitted last week that "the odds remained stacked" against young

black people, especially those from poor backgrounds. Michael Gove will

be here later to explain why he believes that his reforms will bring

about "the dream of equality". He's also been having a serious go at the

cult of celebrity, and seems particularly angry about the

X-Factor's Simon Cowell. Why? We'll find out later.

There's a big report out this week on the future of policing. The

report is backed by the Labour Party and the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette

Cooper will join me later to explain how Labour would spend heavily to

boost the number of Bobbies on the beat. Might we also discuss the

Co-Op and Reverend Flowers? I think we might.

This week also sees the Scottish Government publish its long-awaited

White Paper on independence. How will London respond? I'll be joined

later by Alistair Carmichael, the new Secretary of State for Scotland,

who's been put in the job to be tougher. In a few years from today,

will the UK still exist? The Independent on Sunday has a leak

saying that Independence Day has been set by the SNP for 2016.

John Cleese will be here later as well. But first, the news with Naga

Munchetty. Good morning. Iran has agreed to

limit the development of its nuclear programme in return for an easing of

sanctions, following talks with the US and other world powers in Geneva.

The details of the interim deal are still emerging. It aims to give

negotiators from all sides time to work on a broader agreement.

War, not handshakes between old enemies, seemed the most likely

scenario at the start of this year. But a new government in Iran and new

attitude in America and the West made the agreement possible. The

embraces were for the woman who brokered the deal, Lady Ashton. Here

in Geneva John Kerry said Iran had agreed to restrictions on its

nuclear programme. Among them, cutting stocks of enriched uranium

and stopping work on a controversial nuclear plant. His boss said the

deal addressed what mattered most to the US and its allies. These are

substantial limitations which. Iran building a nuclear weapon. They cut

off its most likely path to a bomb. Iran's Foreign Minister said he had

achieved what mattered most to his country. Recognition of its

continued right to enrich uranium which can be used to make a nuclear

bomb, something he insists Iran does not want to do. We believe the

current agreement, the current plan of action, into distinct places has

a very clear reference to the fact that the Iranians enrichment

programme will continue and will be part of any agreement. Now and in

the future. When the Americans brought in the stars and stripes

further statement, they denied any such right had been conceded. This

is a first step. It allows them six months to negotiate a permanent

deal. More than 11,000 children have been

killed in the Syrian conflict, including hundreds targeted by

snipers, according to the first major study of casualty figures. The

report by the Oxford Research Group think tank says teenage boys are

particularly vulnerable, but summary executions and torture have also

been used against infants. The majority of children have been

killed by bombs or shells in their own neighbourhoods.

A major report into the future of the police service will call for

more officers to return to the beat, and a guarantee that every crime

reported is investigated. The former head of the Metropolitan force, Lord

Stevens, has led an independent inquiry into policing in England and

Wales. Writing for The Sunday Telegraph, he says that more

criminals are escaping justice and that the service is seen by the

public as having "sadly deteriorated".

Police forces in England and Wales face a 20% reduction in their

funding in the next four years and has been a controversial report into

their pay and conditions. Lord Stevens described the current police

reform programme as confused, and unfocused and warns that officers

are retreating to a reactive model of policing. He argues that chief

constables should set out a guaranteed level of policing for

every neighbourhood as well as guaranteed response times when a

crime is reported. He also once every crime reported to the police

to be investigated or if it is not possible to do so, the big ones

should be told why. -- the victims. The report includes ideas on saving

money, including the bulk buying of equipment. It also called on

officers to have mobile access to the national police computer so they

can effectively operate on the streets without having to return to

the police station. Following recent allegations of police misconduct in

the plebgate affair and Hillsborough, Lord Stevens concludes

that forces should no longer investigate the behaviour of their

own officers. The Scottish Government has

announced the date it expects Scotland to become independent if

there is a "Yes" vote in next September's referendum. The date is

March 24th, 2016, which is the anniversary of the union of the

crowns of Scotland and England in 1603, and also the uniting of their

parliaments a century later. The date is included in a White Paper on

Independence, which will be published this week.

Ed Miliband has said his decision to stand against his brother, David,

for the leadership of the Labour Party has been "incredibly tough" on

the two of them. Speaking on Desert Island Discs on Radio Four, the

Labour leader said he understood why people might have found his choice

to put party before family unpalatable, but he insisted it was

the right thing to do. Both David and I went into politics partly

because our parents welcomed as into that conversation and did not put us

out. It was not Das Kapital over the breakfast table, I used to sneak off

and watched Dallas! Dad was someone who would do something with that was

not about politics. But politics was a big part of it.

That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before

ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. Thank you. Now to the papers. The

Sunday Times has a big story about Cameron about to defy the European

union about immigration. The Independent on Sunday, Miliband

accusing the Conservatives of being in the gutter about recent attacks.

The Observer has an important story, Labour facing a cash crisis

if they have to pay back money to the Co-operative bank. The Sunday

Telegraph follows a sensational story, this slave cult in London

stop suggesting some political connection there. And the most

jaw-dropping front page, the Mail on Sunday. Rupert Murdoch in a feud

with Tony Blair over his ex-wife. More about that later.

And with me to review the papers are Polly Toynbee and Iain Dale. Well we

will start with what the newspapers have not got. The Iran deal which

came just too late. The Observer had just a few words away from a nuclear

agreement breakthrough. Very close overnight and then it finally

happened. We have to hope that that sticks. There does seem to be some

disagreement on what it at Chile means. Both the Saudis and the

Israelis looking worried about it. As we would expect. I mentioned the

immigration story. This is from the Sunday Times. If you look at the

first paragraph, David Cameron himself could have written that.

Preparing for a showdown with Europe over fears of a looming implant of

Romanian and Bulgarians in Britain. He was essentially to change the

rules. At the moment you can claim benefits after three months. He

wants to delay that to one year. And he is getting backing apparently

from Germany, Denmark and Spain. But it would be a big thing to go

against the European commission. We expect there to be a referendum in

2017 if he is back in power. It would be quite a dividing line. And

if he went into battle in Brussels and failed, how is he then going to

be able to negotiate anything else? Huge short-term popularity for doing

it. Building up to a legal challenge, was. But that would take

years. This is really to attack UKIP who are expected to do well in the

European elections next year. I think all the parties are worried.

Who knows how many Romanians and Bulgarians may arrive here. Many

European countries have different benefits systems. You have to put

money in before you get anything out. Our system is different. It is

a difficult system to start from scratch. People have built up right

and it is hard to completely alter the benefits system. I think there

may be some compromise on this. Because other countries have some

sympathy with this. That is the key. It is not just written against

Europe. Ed Miliband all over the newspapers today. Well one story

that follows on about benefits. In Duncan Smith in the Observer,

targeting ill claimants. He wants to be arranged the benefit system for

people who are seriously ill but who could go back to work at some stage.

He has already removed benefits and sanctioned huge numbers of people,

over 1000 people died last year within a short time of being

declared fit for work. So I think those Romanians and Bulgarians would

have a lot of difficulty naming within a year. Takes a long time to

get the benefit even when you're entitled. Ed Miliband all over the

newspapers. The front of the Independent on Sunday has this

story, he is accusing the Tories of being in the gutter of the Reverend

Paul Flowers. He accuses the Tories of being in the gutter. Adam Boulton

in the Sunday Times saying that mud flies everywhere, but only Ed

Miliband is splattered. And it heralds probably a dirty election

campaign. I think we are all expecting that. There is a kind of

personal antipathy between David Cameron and Ed Miliband. It would be

nice to turn that part of the campaign off. Ed Miliband has

written a piece about this himself. Saying that the Prime Minister means

his office. A lot of the Tories, Grant Shapps seems to be able to say

anything. Many of them are off the leash. I think they need to distance

themselves. Ed Miliband is in difficult territory. If a Tory vicar

who had been chairman of the bank who indulged in rent boys, do you

not think that Ed Miliband might have possibly asked about it at by

ministers questions! No one seriously thinks, the Dorries to not

seriously think Ed Miliband had anything much to do with this guy.

-- the Tories. He was a personal adviser to him. The regulation is

the story. How on earth did someone like this get into running a large

bank. He could not read the most basic financial statements. The Mail

on Sunday has a piece about the current deputy chairman of the, bank

who was also a former Labour councillor. If you or I were on a

board of the bank we would think it was ridiculous. I certainly am not

qualified. Do you have to be a Labour Party member or counsellor?

It is ridiculous. Well that bank is now going to be run by hedge funds

is from America. The bank suddenly grew and of course George Osborne

encouraged it to do so. Wanted it to buy this enormous chunk of Lloyd's.

If I was Ed Miliband that is what I would be chipping away at now. Tessa

Jowell has been much talked about as a potential mayor of London. I have

interviewed her a couple of times on my radio show, and she is seriously

thinking about having a serious think about becoming a London mayor.

She is one of the few politicians who could do what Tony Blair did

nationally in London. Because the Conservatives quite like her, soaked

she could build some kind of big ten coalition. She has got a lot of

kudos. She has, and there are about eight Labour politicians vying to be

their candidate. The problem for the Tories is, how do you follow Boris?

In a sense, the question of who is going to be the Labour candidate is

the big issue, for once. Labour is very likely to win next time. The

chances are, Labour will win, so the primary, as it were, for Labour luck

Ed Miliband has said he wants to throw it open to primaries, so that

all Londoners could choose. What a pity they do not do that in

Parliamentary selections. But there are quite a lot of candidates out

there. Let's move on delicately to Tessa Jowell's old boss, Tony Blair,

who is very friendly, it says, with the former wife of Rupert Murdoch.

We should emphasise right at the beginning that this newspaper says

it is not alleging any impropriety, though it takes three pages to do

so! If you remember that first meeting with Murdoch, when he flew

across the world in 1995, and that bond with Murdoch seemed to seal his

future. This split, whether there is truth in bed or not, is obviously

absolutely gut-wrenching. I remember Murdoch said at the time, if this

flirtation between new Labour and the Murdoch empire is ever

concentrated, I suspect we will end up making love like to porcupines,

very carefully, he said. But those are amazing comments from Tony

Blair's office am calling it the ravings of a sad old man. And a

source close to Rupert Murdoch says, Rupert has been very careful and has

not acted lightly. So it seems it is Murdoch that has put this out. This

takes us back to the tragic state of new Labour in the beginning, where

it felt, and possibly rightly, that you could not win an election in

this country without Murdoch, without making a act with the devil,

if you like. Both Brown and Blair went out of their way to rule him.

The extent in this country, almost uniquely, perhaps apart from

Berlusconi in Italy, of the extent to which the right-wing press...

Rutting Murdoch to one side, whenever media tycoons and

politicians get in bed together, literally or otherwise, becomes...

But David Cameron did this without the support of any newspaper. I said

when he became leader. It was only when Andy Coulson came in that he

started to get closer to newspapers. But why did he bring Murdoch right

into the heart... ? It is a democratic problem for the country.

Were we careful enough? 1-storey left each. I think you wanted to

speak about the inheritance tax story. At the moment, 21,000 people

a year are paying inheritance tax, and by 2017, it is going to be

45,000. Before the last election, George Osborne promised to raise the

threshold, but it is still at ?325,000, next to the Liberal

Democrats. It is a pernicious tax because it is double tax. You are

taxed on your earnings when you are alive, and then you get taxed again

when you die. I think they should aim to abolish it in the long term

grubby it is only a tiny number of people, 6% of people. But why should

you pay taxed twice? Much more exciting is this. Who would have

thought a revolution was likely to break out in Switzerland? Today, the

Swiss have a referendum on whether to make sure that all chief

executive is our only paid 12 times the salary of their lowest paid

worker. I think it will be quite close, it probably will not get

through, but if we had that in this country, I am sure a referendum

would vote for it. Thank you both very much indeed. Now, a date for

the diary, March 24th 2016, the date pencilled in as Scotland's

Independence Day, if a majority vote for it in the referendum next year.

This week, the Scottish Government will publish its white paper setting

out how an independent Scotland would operate. The SNP has been

accused of being too vague on the details, but there will be no

stinking this time, we are promised more than 600 pages of this. We will

hear more about it on Tuesday. But first, defending the union, here is

the Secretary of State for Scotland, Alistair Carmichael. Good morning.

We read that you had warned your Cabinet colleagues not to be

complacent about this boat, so do you think the English government by

and large is complacent? I think there are people all over the

country who kind of take the existence of the United Kingdom for

granted. What we have got to get across is that there is a very real

danger to the United Kingdom, and that in fact the United Kingdom is

good not just for the people of Scotland, but for England, Wales and

Northern Ireland as well. This should not be allowed to become some

sort of Puncheon Judy match between Edinburgh and London. Why do you

think it could be close? First of all you have to look at the number

of people who are undecided. There are an enormous number, maybe a

quarter, maybe up to a third, who say they are still undecided. If you

look back to the situation before the 2011 Scottish elections, a

similar number of people were undecided, and at the end of the

day, they all went to the SNP. If that happens again, and these people

go for independence, then this becomes very, very close. I believe

there is a great case, a positive case, for being part of the United

Kingdom. Some people have got an optimistic view of the future of

Scotland, slightly to the left of England, a social democratic view,

and the pro-union campaign has been a bit more pessimistic and dour, it

has been said? Well, there is a long way to go in this contest yet. There

is a great story for the United Kingdom, and Scotland is part of the

United Kingdom. As part of the United Kingdom, we have

opportunities to perform on the world stage, as part of the United

Nations security council, a member of the European Union and a member

of NATO. At the same time we have still got a Scottish parliament in

Edinburgh, able to deal with Scottish issues. It is the best of

both world's. Why would you want to walk away from that? When you were

given the job by David Cameron and Nick Clegg, what did they say they

wanted from you? They said they wanted a positive case for Scotland

being part of the union, being put out with passion. Inc back to the

Olympic Games, yes, we had great days with Andy Murray and Chris Hoy

winning gold medals, but also, remember that fantastic Saturday

night when you had Mo Farah, but Rutherford, Jessica Ennis... If

Scotland were a foreign country, you would have no stake in that. So the

English should stop sleepwalking into this? This decision will be

taken in Scotland, but people in the rest of the United Kingdom, and

remember, there are a lot of people in the rest of the United Kingdom

who are not English... We heard the Welsh First Minister talking about

it this week. I want to ask you about the currency union

particularly, is it true that George Osborne would refuse to allow the

Scots to use the pound, because the pound is the property of the Scots

as much as the English, so how could that be? It is, as long as we are

part of the United Kingdom. But international law is very clear,

that if you remove yourself from the United Kingdom, then you would

remove yourself from all sorts of institutions, and the pound would he

one of them. How would it benefit England not to allow the Scots to

use the pound? Have a situation where the rest of the United Kingdom

would have no control over banks, for example, and from Scotland

needlepoint of you, they would be handing over control of their

interest rates and borrowing levels and all of these things to the rest

of the United Kingdom, which would be a foreign country. But surely on

a single island, with a huge amount of trade going on across that

border, having the same currency would make sense. Which is a perfect

reason for remaining part of the United Kingdom. But it also means it

would be ridiculous to say the Scots, if you have independence, you

cannot keep the pound. The fact is, currency union would not work for

Scotland or for the rest of the United Kingdom. If you look at what

happens in the Eurozone, the currency union their runs into

difficulties... That is very different. But it runs into

difficulty because it does not have the fiscal, economic independence is

about political disintegration, it is not about integration. Look what

happened with Czechoslovakia, they tried to have a currency union when

they split, and it lasted 33 days. But both sides are quite happy in

their separate countries you could argue that a currency union works

very well between them say, Germany, Holland and Denmark. It remains to

be seen whether the economies would be similar. I think the fact is that

when we come to Tuesday, the question is going to be for Alex

Salmond and the Scottish Nationalists, George Osborne and Ed

Balls have already said, this is highly unlikely. Carwyn Jones says

he does not want this to happen. In these circumstances, surely, you

should be telling the people of Scotland what your Plan B is going

to be. What about the military side? Will you be saying to the Scots that

you cannot just take assets out of the UK Armed Forces which is what

Alex Salmond says he wants? That is just one layer of uncertainty which

comes on top of many others. The truth of the matter is that this is

one of the things which the Scottish Government will have to acknowledge

on Tuesday. There are some things which they can control, there are

some things which they cannot, which will have to be the subject of the

go see Asian, and that is one of them. The Scottish Nationalists have

been having some fun at your expense. Before you took this job,

you thought the office should be abolished, it was grossly wasteful,

with far too many civil servants, so are you going to act on that now

that you are Secretary of State for Scotland? It is probably the most

important job input text for the next 12 months, and I am relishing

it. Nobody would say to Alex Salmond, when he was an MP at

Westminster, you want to abolish Westminster, so you should not be an

MP here. In politics, you take the job you are given, and I am

relishing and loving this one. Thank you very much for joining us. It has

been bright, invigorating and extremely cold, almost champagne

weather. Can the rain state of? I have no idea. Let's hear from Nina

Ridge. It looks like the rain is going to stay off.

Overall I think we are looking at a dry picture, with bright spells. The

south-west of England probably seeing some of the best of the

sunshine. Some bright skies across Scotland and Northern Ireland, with

some sunshine in Northern Ireland at times. Still quite breezy in the

south-east corner, feeling cooler. Tonight, some breaks in the cloud.

To begin the day tomorrow, some sunshine, but it will be more

overcast towards the north-west, due to a week weather front. Also there

will be some less cold air. Temperatures still struggling

further south, however. The week ahead, with high

further south, however. The week across much of the country, stays

dry. Temperatures struggling at first but aching up around the

middle part of next week. Two years ago, Labour set up an

independent review of policing. Yvette Cooper told her party

conference in 2011 that the Tories were taking a "reckless risk" with

the fight against crime by cutting budgets. The results of Labour's

police review, headed by the former Met Police chief Lord Stevens, will

be made public this week. Yvette Cooper joins me now. The headline of

this is an increase in neighbourhood policing and bobbies on the beat,

but police officers have said that if you look at the numbers and

divide them by the numbers of police forces, it only adds up to two more

police people on the beat for each part of the UK, which is not a great

change, is it? In fact, what Lord Stevens is saying is that this is

about a change in attitude which seems to be taking place in

policing, and that there is a retreat going on from neighbourhood

policing and from bobbies on the beach, and that this reflects in

part what Teresa May has said, which is that policing is just about

crime-fighting, pure and simple. What Lord Stevens and his commission

is saying is that in fact, policing is about prevention of crime,

working with communities, respect for law and order and public

safety. So, it is not about more police on the beat, as we have been

told? It is certainly about having the numbers of police on the beat,

rather than in their cars. We asked Lord Stevens to look at what could

be done without additional resources, because we understand

that resources are pressured. We do think that the Government has gone

too far and too fast in the scale of the cuts they have made during this

Parliament, but of course there are financial pressures on everybody. I

remember you telling me a while ago that with the scale of the cuts,

there was a huge risk with crime. I think we have lost 10,000 policemen

but crime has gone down. The government I think has been

complacent about what is happening with crime. In some areas we have

had a 20 year drop. But you also have increases in the level of

domestic violence taking place. Increases in economic crime. A lot

of that is not reported. Senior chief constables have doubts about

the accuracy of reported crime figures. And in the North West they

say serious crime is giving to go up. But they were able to cut the

numbers of police officers without the disastrous effects suggested at

the time. In justice for the DIMMs for example, the number of

prosecutions for domestic violence is going down more than 10%. --

victims. Reports of rape has fallen 30 3%. And similar drops in child

abuse. So I think there is a serious impact as a result of the cuts. But

Lord Stevens is saying there are things you can do even with the

resources that you have. Is this just another type of think tank

report? Well I asked Lord Stevens to do the equivalent of a Royal

commission. He has drawn together material from 30 different

universities, the head of Europe all, former MI6 chiefs and so on.

They have drawn up a series of recommendations and we will now

consult on those. Because they have done those independently. I think we

should not underestimate the importance of this. So many people

have been prepared to get involved and that shows serious concerns

about the direction of Theresa May's chaotic reforms. Jack's jaw

said the government made a spectacular mistake on not imposing

controls on people coming in from the European union. We already said

it was the wrong thing to do not to have those transitional controls. --

Jack Straw. We should also have done more about the impact on the labour

market. You have said in the past at the rate of increase was too fast.

As a result of things like the lack of transitional controls, the pace

of immigration was too fast. The level was too high. That is why we

have supported measures to bring immigration down. If David Cameron

says he wants to change the rules on welfare, will Labour support him in

that? Well already last year we said the government could make changes

within the existing rules to make sure the system is fairer. When

people come to this country they should be contributing. There are

changes that could be made to John 's -- to Job Seeker's Allowance. If

the government had done that nine months ago we could have had more

progress on this right now. But most people coming to this country to

come to work. Did you have any idea what the Reverend Paul Flowers was

up to? No, that was completely shocking. It is confusing that

someone like this could be running a bank. Has Labour behaved well over

the whole issue of the corporative group? I think these are different

issues. There is a question about what happened with the Co-operative

bank. Why the problems were not spotted by the regulator and the

Treasury earlier. That is why there should be an enquiry. There is a

separate issue about the many generations, relationships between

the Labour Party and the Co-operative movement. There is a

commercial relationship with the Co-operative bank but a separate

issue about our long-standing relationship with the Co-operative

movement. That has been about asset of values. It is right to support

that. What happens to the Labour Party if you have to pay back all

that money from the corporative bank? You could be asked to pay that

bank -- that back. The arrangements the Labour Party has with its bank,

all parties have banking arrangements in place. Those are on

a long-term commercial basis. What the party has made clear, it is true

we do not have the same scale of donations and resources that the

Conservative party gets from hedge funds and things like that. But we

have sources of funding from all different areas. The Shadow

Chancellor has been asked to pay back ?50,000 and said that he did

not have the money. You have a situation where you have

long-standing relationships with the Co-operative movement. Donations as

a result of the Co-operative shops and so on. That long-standing

relationship has nothing to do with Mr Flowers. It is just the politics

of the blog -- of the gutter. And it is and nastiness going on. But in

the future you can never say to the Tories, look at the terrible

behaviour of that bank. You cannot use the same rhetoric against them

now. It is right for us to be proud of our long-standing and historic

relationship with the Co-operative movement and mutual societies. What

we have seen recently is a real deterioration in the nature of the

politics that the Tory party is bristling. I do not think John Major

would ever have done this. It is a different style of politics. You and

your colleagues can never again look at the Tories and say, those

terrible Tories, look at how they have behaved. The point we have made

about the relationship between the Tories and some of their big

financial backers and so on is about the fact that they have cut taxes

for their friends who are giving them donations. Substantial tax cuts

for the richest people in the country at the time when those on

lower incomes are facing a cost of living crisis.

Not since the return of Lazarus has a comeback caused so much

excitement. The news that the surviving members of Monty Python

are getting together once again was greeted with a mixture of disbelief

and delight last week. They've promised "comedy, pathos, music and

a tiny piece of ancient sex". I'm going to be chatting to John Cleese

about flying circuses and all that in a moment. But first, here's a

reminder of what made the Pythons peerless.

Good morning. I am sorry to have kept you waiting. My walk has become

sillier recently. We are all looking forward to this. We are told it is a

one-off in London. Is there going to be more? It will depend how the

tickets go. It is quite cost me to put on. Hiring the stadium is not

cheap. So if we can add shows then we will but it will depend on

whether the tickets sell. Will it be the favourite old scenes or new

material? We have to be careful about new stuff. I had been many

years ago to see Neil Diamond and he got booed in the second part because

he dared to sing some new songs. It is not a theatrical presentation, it

is like a rock concert. They are disappointed if you do new material.

But there are ways of presenting material, where we can play with the

audience, using the fact that they know the material so well. And the

motivation according to one of your colleagues, was greed, I think he

said. I thought it was the Daily Mail! I think it was a Python. I

think it was something to do with paying off Terry Jones's mortgage.

We are certainly going to get paid for it as far as I understand. But

what we can do is have fun while earning money. And when we do get

together, we always say we laugh more than at any other time of our

lives. A lot of people will look forward to it. We had a bit of a go

at the BBC is not commissioning enough comedy. But some people would

say there is a lot of good stuff around. The last big thing you did

for the BBC was of course faulty towers. A lot of people feel you did

not do enough of them. Why was it so great? Let us take a look.

Where is your? Door is gone! It was here! Good morning, major. I am so

sorry. The dining room door seems to have disappeared.

Some of the greatest comedies ever made for television. If you went to

the BBC and said Basil Fawlty is still around, I would like to bring

him back. They would grasp at it with open arms. Of course they

would. Because they want familiar material. But when we went in 1969

into the office of Michael Mills, head of light entertainment, he had

heard we wanted to do a series and we did not know, he did commission

it just on the basis that we had talent. A lot of my criticisms of

the BBC are based on conversations with younger comedians who tell me

about the level of control that executives have got. And unlike the

old days they have not come up from the ground level so they do not

really know what they are doing. The old guys like Michael Mills, they

had a fingertip feeling of what comedy is about. That is not the

case with the executives these days. Would you ever bring back Basil

Fawlty? No, that was of his time. And if you want to buy tickets for

the Python show, you can go to the website. Is the price of were going

to last? We do not know. -- the- humour. People always ask why do

people love it worldwide. We do not know. We were as astonished as

anyone. We became world news. We thought it was hilarious. If you do

sell-out, there will be more shows? I should think so, yes. One last

clip to show you. Is this the right room for an

argument? I told you once. Now, you did not. I did. I did not! That was

something completely different. And now for something completely

different again. Education has been one of the busiest ministries over

the past three years, introducing free schools, reforming the exam

system and the curriculum. Along the way, the Secretary of State has

picked a few fights with the teaching unions, and with the

educational establishment which, apparently, he calls "the blob".

Michael Gove joins me now. Welcome. What went wrong originally with the

free schools, do you think you were naive when you first set out on this

great crusade? I do not think we were naive, but there was that

school in Derby where things went very badly wrong. For me, the test

is, how quickly do you deal with failure? We recognised after a

whistle-blower had brought to our attention some real concerns with

this school that we needed to take action. Just last week we were able

to say that the current group of governors, idealistic people, but

who had got it completely wrong, are now standing down, and there is a

great new teacher now taking over. But secondly, have free schools, and

have the reforms started to move the education system in the right

direction? And I think overall, they have. According to Ofsted, non-free

schools have actually done slightly better. We have looked at this in

terms of free schools versus local authority schools. We have got a new

inspector, who is a great man. If you look at free schools and compare

them, all schools which have started in the last couple of years,

sometimes in the teeth of political opposition, they have outperformed

other schools which have been inspected under this framework, and

in particular, they have outperformed new local authority

schools. Are you comfortable about the very large number of unqualified

teachers coming into these schools? In the case of Al-Madinah, there

were teachers who it was alleged were not qualified to teach,

particularly at primary level. Al-Madinah was a specific case, but

more broadly, there are now fewer unqualified teachers in sake schools

than there were previously. -- in state schools. Am I not right in

saying that in the free schools, there are many more unqualified

teachers coming in? There are some teachers in free schools who do not

have qualified teacher status, which is a bit killer type of teaching

convocation, but the same thing is true in independent schools. --

which is a particular type of teaching. Schools for example like

Batley Grammar School, which used to be a very exclusive school, now, in

effect, myself, as a Conservative Education Secretary, have

nationalised independent schools. Some of the teachers there went from

top universities into the school, though they do not have that

qualified teacher status. What they do have, in the case of Batley

Grammar School, and it head of geography, is a first-class degree

from Cambridge University. And you are very worried about the condition

of young, black men in schools? You are like Shirley Williams in a

suit! Well, there is a lot to be said about Shirley Williams, but

what I would say is that the reason why we are changing the education

system, and taking independent, fee-paying schools and making them

state schools is because we need to make our society more equal. We have

got a big problem in this country is that England has been stratified and

segregated for generations because of an unequal education system. Free

schools are part of changing that, to bring good schools to areas which

have not had them in the past. But also we are spending more money on

the education of the very poorest children, and we are also changing

the curriculum, so that it includes a higher level of ambition. Just

lastly on free schools, before we come onto the curriculum, I wonder

whether one thing you had not fully appreciated was that there are lots

of different cultures around the country, and some of them, there is

a lot of secrecy in these schools, and what might appear to be a very

sensible idea in Surrey town does not work so well in other parts of

the country, so that was a mistake, as it were? I take your point, but

we have seen free schools making a difference across the country. They

are backed by people from a variety of cultures and faith back rounds.

You are right, we need to police carefully schools which have a faith

ethos, and I will be saying more about that in due course. But there

are outstanding schools which have a faith ethos in different parts of

the country. For example, one guy who is the head teacher not of a

minority faith school but of a judge of England school in the West

Country. What that school does is provide an education which reflects

faith values, but in an inclusive environment. I do not see why I, the

taxpayer, should be funding schools where girls are segregated from boys

average I agree with you. I think it is absolutely wrong to have any form

of segregation. The whole point about state faith schools is that

they strike the right balance. They must reflect the diversity and

richness of modern society, but by the same time, we must make sure

that children can both respect their heritage and be fully integrated

into modern Britain. Do you agree with the Attorney-General that there

is a problem with political corruption in Pakistani communities

in this country? Well, I am not an expert in political corruption, so I

will not go there. I think what Dominik wanted to say is that

wherever corruption occurs, we need to root it out. For example, changes

can be made to the way voters are registered. I think it is

important, which is what I was arguing on Friday, to look at the

way in which all of Britain's minority communities are

contributing to our success, but also asking ourselves, what can we

do in government to help? I am concerned about the underperformance

of black Hummer Caribbean boys, from poorer homes. We need to do more to

improve their education. -- black, Caribbean boys. In the past, these

children have suffered from the soft bigotry of low expectations. We need

to introduce them to a rigorous curriculum, the sawdust daddies

which we did when we were boys, which gave us the chance to succeed.

-- the sort of studies. I am going to shamelessly introduce one of my

pet enthusiasms, which is the teaching of art. A lot of teachers

are worried that it is getting pushed to one side, which, given

that we have got a very rich culture of architects and so on, does not

make economic sense, so, can we have more drawing, please? I completely

agree with you. We want to put a new emphasis on drawing and painting, to

include this within art and design. We will be discussing it because I

take this enormously seriously. Yes, people need to have literacy

and numerous, but it is at school that people can be introduced to the

geniuses of the past, and also to have the chance to nurture a talent.

The other thing about art and design is that, like you, I am fascinated

by painting, but we also need to recognise that design now

encompassing is -- now encompasses things like coding and programming.

Children now are learning to do coding at school, to generate

applications, which divides a whole new vista of creativity for young

people. We are just about to get the inevitable international

comparisons, so how do you think English schools will do? I do not

know. But it is important to recognise that the comparisons which

the OECD are going to bring out will reflect to a significant extent what

happened under the last government. They were comparisons of teenagers

taken just a couple of years into our time in government. We had been

able to do some things, but I think these tables will be a judgment on

the past, not the present. But I do think that there were some good

things which happened under the last government, which we wanted to build

on, as well as some things where we disagreed with them. Let's turn to

some of the other big issues. Immigration, the Prime Minister is

determined to have a showdown, if he needs to, with the EU, on the number

of Bulgarians and Romanians coming into this country, to remove rights

for them for a year rose so, is that practical, do you think? Yes, I

absolutely agree with him on that. The Prime Minister has struck

exactly the right note on immigration, which is to celebrate

the achievements of people coming here, to recognise that migration

has worked for people already here, from whatever background. But when

it comes to new migrants from the accession countries, we need to look

properly at the benefits system here, to make sure that people are

coming here to work and to contribute, not to take advantage.

Your party has been having a great deal of fun at the expense of the

Labour Party in the matter of Paul Flowers, but it has been suggested

that actually, the Conservatives have a lot to answer for, and we ask

ourselves how it could happen that somebody with no banking

experience, like this Methodist minister, who was far too busy doing

other things to run banks, could end up running this bank, and it

happened under your party's watch? I absolutely think that we need to

have some answers. That is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer took the

advice to setup and inquiry which ask searching

advice to setup and inquiry which went on, right up to the moment

we discovered everything that we discovered about Paul Flowers. It is

certainly the case that the Treasury discovered about Paul Flowers. It is

is perfectly happy to answer those questions, and indeed

is perfectly happy to answer those inquiry so that they could be asked.

The difficulty I think Labour has is that they were

The difficulty I think Labour has is responsible for allowing Paul

Flowers to be appointed on their watch, and there is a pattern of

Flowers to be appointed on their behaviour which is that when tough

questions are asked of labour over Paul Flowers, over the Unite union,

questions are asked of labour over and Grangemouth and all the rest of

it, they tend to climb up. One thing which I think is slightly odd is

that Ed Miliband, who has been a great advocate of transparency, but

whenever anybody asks great advocate of transparency, but

about the Labour Party, he has a kind of coquettish reticence he says

that this is becoming a very dirty campaign, and that we are heading

towards a very dirty campaign, so can you assure him that that is not

going to happen? Absolutely. We have had some disagreeable aspects in the

past. For example, we know that Damian McBride under Gordon Brown

was a particular type of, you know, hit man. To his credit, Ed Miliband

and Douglas Alexander said to Gordon Brown, get rid of this chapter. I

think Ed Miliband wants to fight a chain election campaign. I know that

David Cameron does. I think the election campaign should we

conducted on the basis of policy versus policy. One of my worries is

that actually, so far, quite a lot of the critique of the Government

from Labour has been very personal. I remember the ways in which, at

different times, for example in the Crewe by-election, people were

attacked for their background, not for their beliefs. I think that is

wrong. We should have an argument about the extent to which, with our

additional investment, we are pushing forward social mobility.

That is what matters more than where a particular politician went to

school. One final area, we could go on, but the Prime Minister is quoted

as attacking the pro-windfarm policies and so on. Do you agree

with him on the broad principle that the Government has gone too far in

green subsidies? I think it is absolutely right to look to see if

we are making sure that the costs faced by people when they pay their

energy bills properly reflects a balance between paying their bills

but also making sure there is appropriate investment. I saw the

Prime Minister on Friday, and he had just been speaking to a number of

people who want to see investment in green companies. Investment by

companies like Siemens is critical. So, there is a balance to be struck.

There are jobs to come from renewable energy, but we have to

make sure the balance of taxation is right. Thank you very much for

joining us this morning. Time for the headlines. Foreign Minister is

from six world powers have reached a deal with Iran to curb its nuclear

programme. News of the interim agreement came in the early hours of

the morning after a day of intense negotiations in Geneva. According to

the US, Iran has agreed to die loot its stocks of enriched uranium and

grant unprecedented access to its nuclear facilities, in return for an

easing of international sanctions. The Foreign Secretary, William

Hague, described the agreement as an important moment. The Shadow Health

Secretary has backed a call in a major report into the future of the

police for more officers to return to the beat. But Yvette Cooper said

that this could be achieved without additional resources. Labour

commissioned a former head of the Metropolitan Police force to lead an

independent inquiry into policing in England and Wales. Writing for the

Sunday Telegraph, he says that more chronicles are escaping justice, and

that the service is seen by the public as having "sadly

deteriorated". The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock . next, a

brief look at what is coming up immediately after this programme.

Restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians entering the UK are being

lifted. Is immigration good for Britain? And also, why banning slang

in schools is linguistic fascism. I am afraid that is about it for this

week. I hope we have shed a little light. Thanks to all of my guests.

Join me at the same time next week, when I will be speaking to the

Chancellor, George Osborne, and his shadow, Ed Balls. Until then,

goodbye.