01/12/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. The week ahead is going to be dominated by the Autumn

Statement. Sadly, that's got nothing to do with oak leaves turning gold,

or mists or mellow fruitfulness. It's about how much money the

government has, or hasn't, and what it's going to do with it. This year,

for the first time ever, George Osborne can celebrate growth,

stronger growth in Britain than in any other major economy in the

world, but there's a paradox. Millions of people still feel

worried, over-borrowed and scared about the future. A strong recovery

in a weak economy. Is that the story of Britain today?

Picking over economic themes and much more in the papers today, Shami

Chakrabarti, the director of the human rights organisation Liberty,

and the actor and activist Jim Carter.

A giveaway for people struggling with their energy bills, ?50 a head.

That's going to be a centrepiece of the Autumn Statement, according to

the papers. Really? A cast-iron guarantee? And who'll pay for it?

Lots of questions still, but luckily, the man who can help us

answer those questions, George Osborne, is with us in the studio

ahead of his big day. So too is his chief critic, indeed

his chief tormentor, the Shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls. He used to

infuriate the PM by making this gesture at Prime Minister's

Questions, flatline. The economy's flat-lining. No recovery. Get it?

Has he got a new gesture? We'll talk to both men later.

It's all about justice, really, which is good because I've also been

meeting an iconic lawman, the actor Martin Shaw. Famous for TV roles

such as Judge Deed and Doyle in The Professionals, Shaw is back on the

West End stage, starring in 12 Angry Men. And apart from tough guys from

drama, and front line politics, we've some great live music. Robyn

Hitchcock, once of the Softboys, will be playing us out. First,

though, the news from Sally Nugent. Good morning. A rescue and recovery

operation is continuing at a pub in Glasgow where a police helicopter

crashed into the roof killing at least eight people on Friday night.

One of the victims has been named as Gary Arthur, a 48--year-old from

Paisley in Scotland. 14 people remain in hospital with very serious

injuries. Nick Beake reports. Nearly 36 hours on, they still have

not unable to recover all the victims of this horrific crash. But

the body of 48-year-old Gary Arthur has now been removed. The three crew

on board the helicopter also died. Our hearts go out to everyone who

has been bereaved. It is impossible to imagine the grief and loss that

they are experiencing. But they should know that the thoughts and

prayers of everyone across the city and indeed across Scotland are with

them at this unimaginably difficult time. 14 people who were seriously

injured has spent another night in hospitals across Glasgow. The police

are now asking eyewitnesses to send photographs and videos, to help

crash investigators. As for the recovery teams, it is difficult

work. Imagine the situation, the helicopter has come down and is

almost literally sitting in the middle of the building. Until that

is resolved, we cannot know everything that is in that building.

This is the type of helicopter that cash -- that crashed, a twin

engined, EC one 35. Its makers have now sent their own investigator to

Glasgow, a city that needs answers. -- EC-135.

Our correspondent Laura Bicker is at the scene in Glasgow this morning.

What is happening there this morning?

A major operation is underway. We understand that cables are being

attached to the helicopter which is still embedded in the roof of The

Clutha pub. The cables will be attached in the next few hours and

we understand that the aim is to lift the from the roof. If we zoom

in closely, I think you can probably see the work going on. This is very

delicate work. They need to do it to things, they need to preserve the

scenes for accident and the actors and the need to preserve as much of

the helicopter as possible. -- they need to preserve the scene for

accident investigators. Meanwhile, prayers will be said for those who

lost their lives. There will be a special service at Glasgow Cathedral

shortly. Thank you. Plans to reduce energy bills by ?50

a year have been announced by David Cameron and Nick Clegg. They say

that in the future, energy saving schemes will be paid for through

general taxation, rather than a levy on household bills. They were

writing in a joint article for the Sunday Sun newspaper on the same day

that the energy firm npower puts up its prices by an average of 10.4%.

Five of the big six energy firms have all announced price rises this

winter. SSE and British Gas have already implemented those price

rises and today, and power join that list. -- npower. Their charges go up

by 6%. The average bill will rise by 6.7% this winter, meaning that the

average dual fuel bill will now stand at ?1444. That is almost

trebled what we were paying ten years ago. Another major cause for

household raise rises has been the cost of transporting gas and power

around the country. That has jumped by 67% by 2007. The biggest

proportional jumping cost to build bills of late has been the

government schemes to help less well-off households to make homes

more energy efficient. In a newspaper article today, the Prime

Minister and Deputy Prime Minister said the government with Linpac the

impact of these measures on our household bills by spreading the

costs over a longer time period. They also said that subsidising

bills for the poorest households would soon be paid for out of

general taxation thanks to clamp down on tax avoidance.

Riot police in the Thai capital have fired tear gas at protesters trying

to force their way into the Prime Minister's office and the Bangkok

police headquarters. Thousands of troops have been deployed to support

the riot police who've been protecting the key ministries in the

city. Two people were killed and dozens more wounded yesterday when

pro and anti-government groups clashed at a rally in the capital.

Today is the eighth day of protests. The American film star Paul Walker

has been killed in a car crash north of Los Angeles. Reports say the

40-year-old actor was the passenger in a Porsche when it crashed into a

tree and burst into flames. The driver also died. Paul Walker was

best known for his roles in the Fast And Furious films, a series about

illegal street racing. That's all from me. I'll be back with the

headlines just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you. Now to the papers. The papers are dominated by the terrible

Scottish helicopter crash. This is the Observer, Scotland mourns its

stead. The Sunday Express has not have a story for once about and says

Diana. It has a proper old-fashioned newspaper front page, heroism amid

the horror. The Telegraph has devoted much of its front page to

the same story. The paper with the most interesting coverage inside its

Scotland on Sunday. The mail on Sunday's political editor is

carrying on with his story that he broke last week about Wendi Murdoch

and Tony Blair. The scary as six words in British politics, good

morning, it is Simon Walters here. I think Tony Blair must be feeling

that this morning. Finally, UK schools stuck at the back of the

class, in the Sunday Times. We were talking about those figures with

Michael Gove last week. They are confirmed this morning. And with me

to review the papers are Shami Chakrabarti and Jim Carter.

You have the Sunday Telegraph there. I have got the Sunday

Telegraph. Most papers have led with this. I have got Scotland on

Sunday. I do not think there is much to add, speculation. It is an

enormous tragedy for those involved. It highlights the fact that we are

always trying to mitigate against risk. We should not eat the sword be

that, and you can be sitting in your favourite pub on a Saturday night

and something falls out of the sky. By all accounts, this was an amazing

pub. Billy Connolly used to perform there. It had a music scene and a

lovely open fire. It was a very special place. Condolences to those

who have lost people. We hope for some kind of enquiry into what went

wrong with this helicopter. It is one of those stories with massive

amounts of coverage, but there is not a lot to add until the enquiry

starts. It is a dreadful thing to have happened. Where are we going to

move next? I think we will go to the main political story, this green

tax. Yes, it looks like we are back to the Rose Garden to some extent,

because we have this in the sand. The one heartening thing, and I am

not an expect any economics, is that at least we have both the government

and the opposition parties attempting to compete with each

other on energy security. That is a massive thing for families,

countries and the world. Whether this package, which is not set out

in detail in the sun, but it seems to be about a little incentive he

and their two insulated your loft. Whether it will be enough for people

who are worried about fuel bills this winter, I do not know. I

usually start reading papers at the back with the sport and give up long

before I get to the front pages. But I do not understand, why do I get

200 pounds winter fuel allowance, whiny? You're talking about 50 quid.

It seems crazy. I am happy to get it because I pass it to the charity of

my choice, but I think this needs looking at in a lot of detail.

Saving ?50 from the electricity bill and linking it to tax dodgers and

benefits grounders, and saying that the government, by a con I is a

beer, will take a certain amount out of the taxable. It was not make

sense. It does not inspire you? No. It seems a little bit like fiddling

while Rome is burning. We will be talking about that with the

Chancellor later on. What is your next story? I have chosen another

observer study -- another story from the Observer. Other papers are

running with the report about the cost of green policies. They say it

will be 85 billion. There is a scepticism underlying this report.

As if this is all waste? Yes, and I worry about the cost of not looking

at climate change and climate security. Whatever your position on

these things, it does seem to be one of the biggest questions facing the

world today, which is why I think... Gem, he is a supportive of

Greenpeace. His colleagues, if you like, from Greenpeace are still in

Russia, mercifully not in prison but detained on bail. We need to get

these issues on the agenda peacefully. Hopefully they will not

republished by -- hopefully they will might be punished by

prosecution. I understand there is a hope of a pardon from the president.

Yes. There is one figure, that said it is going to cost is ?85 billion

in the next ten years. But if we go to a low carbon economy, we could

save $2.3 billion each year, $1 trillion each year. You are a great

Greenpeace supporter? I am. I started some porting Greenpeace when

the French government soffit to sink the rainbow Warrior back in 1985.

Now I think you have made a short film about Greenpeace. We have a

brief clip of it. I think you're playing Father Christmas. We have

been here for some time. Melting ice. The North Pole has made our

operations and our day-to-day life intolerable. And impossible. There

may be no alternative but to cancel Christmas. 1 million weeping

children! It is a bit scary. It is. It is Santana like a hostage, in the

North Pole, his home. -- Santa. But it is melting and it is time to draw

a line in the ice and say stop for the benefit of all our children. The

children will hate that. But you want them to grow up knowing about

polar bears living freely in the Arctic? Of course we do. We want to

save Santa Claus and we think we can. Save his home. So it is the

season of goodwill, not just in the Arctic but closer to home as well.

The Observer tells us, and this is a story of me looking far too young, I

might add, but local authorities want tougher powers to arrest

homeless people, essentially. They are making the place look messy.

These are people that they called aggressive beggars, but aggressive

begging is already a criminal offence. They want tougher powers in

anti-social behaviour legislation to sweep these people up off the

streets. A very Merry Christmas to these lovely local councillors who

have written this letter to the Government. No room at the end? Why

not give some money to the bag and feel better about life? -- to the

beggar. I don't know. We have talked about the cost of climate change

already. One story relates to your day job, as it were. Michelle, your

co-conspirator on Downton Abbey, is doing her bit for African children.

Lovely lady may has been to Jordan to look at Syrian refugee camps. --

Lady Mary. This is in the Mail on Sunday. It is highlighting the

problem that we are all recognising, which is enormous now. I cannot see

the figures. 120,000 Syrians in one refugee camp. She had gone out and

shot the big spotlight on this. She has written an article asking people

to sign up to Oxfam. She has chosen a noncontroversial subject but

climate change is still controversial. Lots of people will

disagree. It is interesting that when you go to visit a refugee camp

over there it is not controversial. If you try to speak up for the

precious few asylum seekers and refugees who make it to a country

like the UK, then it is controversial because of the

toxicity of the debate over migration, whether it is immigration

or asylum in this country. It is interesting that you say that. Would

this run if it was about people detained in detention centres in the

UK? I wonder. Let's turn to another story, Boris Johnson's big speech of

the week. Surprise, surprise, the big speech is Boris Johnson but he

has not had happy headlines. And a witty story in the Observer again.

People who are smart and not so smart. I went to see The Hunger

Games movie, where they have people in the Capital versus the people

outside. They are talking about the species, suggesting there are

epsilon is down there who don't deserve things. The Mayor of London

is a talented politician and this seems to have been a moment when the

talent has not been best spent. It is not a great thing for a

Conservative politician at the time of austerity to say this. It is like

Downton Abbey. In the 80s it was Brideshead revisited and now we have

austerity and a Conservative led Government and Downton Abbey. He is

going back to pure Thatcherism. One of the most Thatcherite candidates

of the Tory leadership. The buffoon, the Crown Prince of Thatcher's

court. I am still getting used to the sight of you without a white tie

on. You look improperly dressed. I can only apologise. You also have a

story of pantomime dames. Let's lighten the mood. A marvellously

titled database are pantomime performance. A database. Sounds

dangerous to me. Are you on it? I am not. I had a brief brush with

pantomime in 1983 when I was at an answer -- I was in Aladdin. Men

dressing as women isn't funny any more. I think it is down to the

quality of the performance rather than anything else. Yes. And Downton

Abbey, you have done the Christmas special already. In the can. Do you

have a long time off or is Downton Abbey for ever and ever? It will

start again in February, series five. It is a well upholstered

treadmill. Yes, remarkable. I have just come back from Stockholm where

one in nine people in Sweden watched Downton Abbey. Explain that! The

birthplace of social democracy. And we are watching The Killing! The

Chinese are watching it in their millions. Explain that. December is

upon us. Winter in all its chilly glory. Yes, a contrast in the

weather this week. We saw lots of sunshine across Wales and South West

England this week but now it is cloudy. Mostly dry apart from the

odd spot of rain and drizzle over western coastal areas. The best

sunshine will be across the East of the Pennines and into central and

southern and eastern Scotland. Light rain and drizzle affecting the

higher ground of the South West after a very chilly start here.

Temperatures slowly rising. Cloud across the Midlands and the South

East. For Wales, cloud will be thick enough for the odd spot of rain.

Similar pictures in Northern Ireland but we could see temperatures up to

10 degrees in Belfast. Into Monday, it starts off on a rather chilly

note, but there will be mist and fog in the East. That will gradually

lift and then it will be another benign day for many areas with cloud

and glimmers of brightness. Signs of change in the North West corners of

Scotland. Outbreaks of rain becoming more persistent. Much colder by the

time we reach the latter part of next week.

If it is the job of an opposition spokesman to get under the skin of

the Government, Ed Balls is an all-time gold winning champion. He

drives them nuts. It is partly the relentless mockery about a lack of

recovery. Now he is promising a new, long-term, Labour plan. In the

Sunday Mirror and you are talking about a long-term plan to rebuild

the economy. The huge house building scheme, how many houses and when?

Our goal is 200,000 by the end of the decade. We would like to do

more. We have the lowest level of house building at the moment since

the 1920s. If you are boosting help to supply demand, but supply is low,

then the price goes up and many people will be locked out of the

housing market. We have to build homes and get people back to work

and make housing affordable. You sound like that Tory house-builder

Harold Macmillan. I am happy to have that comparison. New towns, in

effect. Do you know where they will go? We have asked Sir Michael Lyons

to do a review over the next year. We need to look at what we will do

on planning and finance. We are clear. Every community will have to

make a contribution. I want to protect valuable green belt and

greenfield land. We don't want to disrupt communities. Brown field

burst. But the reality is that we need some vision, some new towns,

garden cities. We did it in the 40s and after the Second World War. We

need to do that again. To be fair to David Cameron and Nick Clegg, one

year ago they were saying the same but it has all gone quiet. It will

take a Labour Government to build the homes that we need for our

people and to get the jobs. The Conservatives say again and again

that you have not got the money to do everything you want to do and you

will have to raise taxes. Looking further ahead, would you want to run

a surplus when the economy carries on improving, like George Osborne? I

have said that I have set out how we will get the national that falling

and getting the budget back into balance, into surplus would be the

right thing to do. When we can do that depends on the economy. George

was saying that it would be by 2015 and he has had to delay that to

2020. I cannot tell you when we can do it but by 2016, we will match

their borrowing and spending plans. There will be tough decisions. Do

you have an ambition in the next Parliament to get the finances into

surplus? We will set out clear fiscal rules in our manifesto which

will get things back into surplus and the national debt falling.

But...? It all depends on surplus? It depends on growth in the economy.

If you don't have gross, -- growth, then you have national debt. I am

not going to say to you when it will be but we want the budget back into

balance and the national debt falling. I have said to the office

when the responsibility -- the Office for Budget Responsibility

that we have to finish the job that George Osborne has not managed to

do. In the first year of a Labour Government you will stick to the

Conservative spending plans. Will you have to do things going further

than that? The Government has already set out plans and we have

said that we will match them on current spending. We will do things

differently. We will take away the winter allowance for the richest

pensioners, as you were discussing in the paper review. Households are

paying more tax and struggling. Living standards are falling. At the

same time we are facing a winter crisis in the National Health

Service. We cannot have a strong economy without the infrastructure

and the education system. How do you get the budget balanced down? That

is what I am asking. How do you invest? Only by having a strong

economy built to last. But how do you get there, in your view? That is

the big question. You are going to have to borrow more but you cannot

borrow much more. You are going to inherit a huge debt and massive

private debt as well. How worried are you about private debt? But

isn't it the other way round in this Parliament? As we have seen. If you

have three years of flat-lining, the national debt goes up. You can't do

that anymore. What is the new gesture? It have to be demonstrated

on Sunday morning television! If I had known that flat-lining would

last three years, I might have thought twice about doing the

gesture in the first place. Three years underperforming on growth. Now

we are doing better any major economy in the developed world. That

is good. Of course, but from a very low base. For families it is not a

recovery because living standards are falling month by month. If

George boasts about a recovery which may be there for the City, but for

most people is not there at all, I fear it will make him look more out

of touch. France is pursuing under Francois Hollande policies you would

like to pursue. Hang on a second. France is in a single currency, the

euro, which rightly back in 2001 we decided not to join, a very good

decision. America and Germany, they are both well above where they were

in 2007. We are doing better than them at the moment. But we are 2.5%

below our precrisis peak. We have so much to catch up and it have to

translate to working people. I need to take you on to green taxes, the

big story of the day. Do you like the proposal? It is in The Son, so

let us see what George announces on Thursday. They are talking about

delaying eco-, which might be a good thing in terms of value for money.

They are shifting energy bills onto the taxpayer. That is not a putt,

just shifting the burden. Fundamentally, what is happening?

Energy prices are going up by ?120, ?130, a ?50 cut when they are going

up by twice that is no good. I asked George if he would stop bills

rising. They failed the test. I would say to get back to the drawing

board and come up with the policy. We have had lots of U-turns

already. Have another and freeze the bills. They would say that the

problem is that the energy companies whack up the bills, the freeze comes

in, and then they don't drop them and people pay more rather than

less. You can't freeze the bills for ever. They are the Government. I

think they should get a grip. Why do David Cameron and George Osborne run

scared in the face of energy companies to have been putting up

bills every year? Just answer this point. What is to stop the energy

companies raising their prices before freeze and then after the

freeze putting them up again? Is the energy companies came together as a

cartel to put up prices to pre-empt Government action, that would be a

total abuse of market power and any sensible regulator would step in and

stop it happening. I don't think they will do that even though they

are putting up the bills. We are saying we should reform the market.

Proper regulator. Transparency. Brake distribution from production.

That will take 20 months and in the meantime we will freeze the bills.

They should do the right thing and make the companies pay back the

excess profits. People do not know what George Osborne's policy is on

green energy. I think we need long-term investment. Christmas is

coming. Yes or no, can you welcome this move to bring down energy

prices? Anything they can do is better than nothing. But people will

still a more bills. Is there a price freeze? No. George Osborne is

failing the test. Ed Balls, I can see why you edited them. Thank you

very much. -- why you irritate them. Thank you. As an actor, Martin Shaw

says he enjoys playing legal figures more than anything else. His most

popular roles have included Judge John Deed on TV, and on stage, that

martyred lawyer, Sir Thomas More. Shaw is back in London's West End in

a legal classic from the '50s, one that Henry Fonda immortalised on

screen. 12 Angry Men is a play about justice, and not being afraid to

take a stand. When we met, the news had not yet been announced of the

death of Lewis Collins, his co-star in The Professionals, but we did

discuss that hit series and its lasting appeal. First, though,

Martin Shaw told me about 12 Angry Men and his role as a juror with a

conscience. This is a man who is the classic

1950s American. He loves the constitution, he loves his country.

He almost certainly fought in the war. It is Henry Fonda. Yes. Having

seen the film, I realised quickly I could not play it the way that Henry

Fonda did. Henry Fonda brings Henry Fonda to the screen. He knows what

his background is. I had to impose something else on it. It is a kind

of infallibility that you do not yet from Henry Fonda. Basically I think

this is a man who is a passionate lever in the Constitution and the

American way of life in its purest form. What do you want? Nothing, I

just want to talk. What is there to talk about. No one else had to think

about this. Let me ask you a question, or you believe his story?

I do not know if I believe it or not. Then why did you vote not

guilty? It is not easy for me to send a boy off to die without

talking about it first. Who says it is easy for me? I honestly think the

guys guilty. You will not change my mind if you talk 100 years. It is an

all white jury. It is a very different time and the justice is

about to be perpetrated on a young black guy. Does it have any

relevance today, the justice system that we live under? Yes, I think it

does. People will point out that it is an all-male and in all white

jury. That is of the time. That is how it was when it was written in

1957. But I think that the concepts of justice and morality... The

portents of jury trials... Yes, thank you. Everything is

encapsulated here. I am told that this play is used as a study tool

for students of psychology. He is 16 years old. That is old enough. He

knifed his own father, four inches into the chest. I was convinced from

the first day. A year never goes by when did is not a big television

vehicle for Martin Shaw of one kind or another. George Gently, Judge

John Deed. But every Christmas, you're back on the West End stage?

Yes, pretty much. Why is that? I do not know. It is part of the craft. I

do this because I love it. This is the chocolate wedding, if you like.

It is a privilege and a light to do this play every night. My years at

drama school, this was the road to Damascus. Drama school, when I went

there, it was as much a psychoanalytical process as a

learning process. Being on stage is the fundamental expression of that

craft. You can get away with a lot on camera, but you cannot get away

with that on stage. You came out of drama school and you did some in

Portland classical roles, Shakespeare. Then comes The

Professionals. -- some important classical roles. Huge quantities of

here. It is very embarrassing. That takes you away from what you were

doing before? Yes. I did not think it would run as long as it had and I

did not think it would he has popularise it was. Also, with

incredible naivety, I thought that if I said, I would like to go now,

they would say fine. It's got criticised a lot at the time. For

being violent and course. But by today's standards, it is very

gentle. Yes, we had all kind of extraordinary rules. We could punch

people, but they could never bleed. We could ship people, but they had

to die with their eyes closed. It is extraordinary, but it was of its

time. -- we could shoot people. Adults have come to me and said, you

are my childhood. The law allows for punitive damages to be awarded. I am

awarding damages of ?3,500,000 for the distress caused. This is my

principal grilling. -- ruling. Judge John Deed is quite unorthodox, and

yet I gather that he is quite popular with the judiciary

themselves. Absolutely. I have some close friends in the judiciary. They

absolutely love it. He advocates the things that they themselves

advocate. The government is trying to change the legal system. It is

trying to change something that has been working wonderfully well for

hundreds of years. It always amazes me that people who know nothing

about a subject think they know better than people who have been

doing it for a long time. It has been lovely talking to you. Thank

you very much for coming in. Thank you. Martin Shaw, a lovely man.

What a difference a year makes. When George Osborne gave his last Autumn

Statement, the talk was all of a triple dip recession. Now the worry

is that the recovery, driven by the housing market, could overheat. We

heard Labour's take on the state of the economy earlier, and the

Chancellor himself is with me now, good morning. Good morning. This

green promise, are we going to see bills come down by ?50? We are going

to roll back the levees that replaced by government on people's

electricity bills. The average bill payer will have ?50 of electricity

and gas. That will help families. We are doing this in the way that

government can do it, we are controlling the cost. We are doing

it in a way that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment

to dealing with climate change. We are not going to reduce our

commitment to helping low-income families with their cost of living.

We have heard from one of the energy companies so far. Have you got a

promise from the energy companies that they will pass on this cut to

their consumers? We have been in discussion with the energy

companies. They will make their own announcements in due course, but we

are clear that they have got to pass on any reduction. I am a believer in

reducing taxes, reducing the cost of government. We can do this through

energy bills. I am Andrew Marr energy. I cover a large swathes of

the country. I'm going to be clear in my conversations with you that

the ?50 is a cut, it will go to all my consumers? On average there will

be ?50 of peoples bills. -- people's. We are insistent that this

is passed on. This is not a con. We are not pretending that we can

freeze the world gas price. What we are saying is, what can government

do? We can step in and help. I am still not clear if they are going to

pass it on to the consumer? I do not want to pre-empt what they are going

to say. But I'm pretty clear that this is going to happen. You have

delayed the insulation, the so-called eco-obligation. You have

taken that away from the energy companies. But will be done more by

government? Instead of penalising people for going green as a nation,

by adding to electricity and gas bills, why not incentivise people?

Why not give people ?1000 when you get a new home to make your home

more energy efficient? That will cut your energy bills. That is the right

approach to these issues. It is about providing people with carrots,

not sticks. These are not inexpensive carrots, both on the

energy company side, but also this ?1000 for everyone buying a new

house to change the boiler and so on? Where will the money come from?

The money will come from additional taxes, we will deal with tax

avoidance. We will take tough measures which I will spell out on

Thursday about how we make sure that people who are trying to avoid taxes

pay their taxes. The vast majority of people do pay their taxes and

they have expensive electricity and gas bills. This is a mixture of

surprise then weedy, because every politician says that they will crack

down on tax avoidance and it very rarely happens? I do not accept

that. This government has taken step after step. The amount of tax we

collect goes up every year. But this requires real changes to the tax

law. I will set goes out properly to Parliament first. It it is about

getting priorities right. -- it is about. We will make sure that our

tax system is fair, that we help families, lifting people out of tax

and increasing the personal allowance. Now we are delivering ?50

of the average bill for people for heating and gas and electricity. Ed

Miliband can take a little bit of the credit for that, having changed

the agenda during his Labour Party speech on this? Ed Miliband promises

what they cannot deliver. He said that he could control the world gas

price. I am afraid that is not credible. What you see from this

government is a different approach. You have just had Ed Balls thing, I

want a surplus, but I want to borrow more. It does not add up. Our plans

do add up, they are credible and serious. Let me ask you about the

economy generally. You have strong growth at the moment. The last time

I was talking to you at -- you or the Prime Minister, about the

housing market, I was slapped down. Argue concerned that it is too much

of a housing price push? In the south-east, it is about 6.5%. Can I

make this broader point than come to house prices? The economic plan is

working and recovery is underway. I will say that the job is not yet

done. We have got to make sure that we go on taking the difficult

decisions to secure that recovery. We want a responsible recovery. We

want to learn from the mistakes of the past. We do not want to see a

re-emergence of the problems that brought this country to its knees.

On housing specifically, the Bank of England says that there is not a

housing bubble at the moment but we want to make sure that one does not

develop. It was myself and the Bank of England governor working together

that stepped in and said that one of these schemes which has been

underpinning mortgage lending, we will now focus on small business

lending. They are the lifeblood of the economy. I think you see us

working in concert, the Bank of England and the Treasury, to make

sure we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. We will monitor debt

levels in the economy and we will spot asset booms. But as of today,

the Bank of England agree, there is not a housing boom. Your conference

speech could be characterised as a steady is not just for Christmas it

is for life? You want to shrink the public sector into the next

Parliament? The numbers imply a very tight squeeze? Are you happy that

the social fabric of the country will stay together? I think one of

the stories over the past couple of years, and I think this would

continue, that we spent beyond our needs and public finances got out of

control. We have had public support for making difficult decisions and

the British public have made sacrifices, but they have seen the

benefits of that in a recovering economy and the deficit coming down.

Of course people know the job is not done. There have to be more

difficult decisions and I have to take difficult decisions this week.

You cannot will your public finances to be in better shape. You cannot

pretend it is going to happen by magic. You have to take real

decisions on welfare, the cost of Government and the like. We have

taken those decisions. Are you confident the recovery will last

until 2015? I am not an economic forecaster. I gave away that power

to the Office for Budget Responsibility. Lots of people don't

think it will and if you talk to the CBI, they are worried about the weak

economy, in terms of export and small business performance and so

forth. I am the first to say that the economy is recovering but the

job is not done. Of course risks remain. There are risks abroad.

Eurozone remains very weak, sadly. And there are risks that home. We

want to have stronger productivity. We want to make sure that our young

people have the skills they need to compete in the global race. A bubble

that is a greater risk is I am going to borrow more, which you have just

heard from Ed Balls. That would be a disastrous thing for Britain at a

time like this. How worried are you about private debt in the economy?

It is huge, close to 100% of GDP. A tiny change in interest rates would

cause catastrophe, wouldn't it? We now empower the Bank of England to

look at overall levels of personal debt in the economy. We have given

them the tools to take action on this. It is all part of having this

responsible recovery, not repeating the mistakes of the past, not just

pumping up the bubble again. Doing the hard work, the hard graft. You

are Chancellor, are you worried about overall debt levels in the

economy at the moment? These are assessed by the Bank of England and

I don't want to step in and take their job away from them. It is for

every individual family to make their own decision about what they

can afford and what they cannot afford. Of course where there are

genuine problems in financial markets, like we have got people at

the moment who can afford a mortgage but not to deposit because of the

problems in the banking sector, we have stepped in with The Help to

buy. Normal -- I think across the board we step in where we can help.

Of course debt has been a big problem for the United Kingdom in

all sectors. But we have got to make sure that we have the instruments to

deal with that aren't I think we do have those instruments. Looking

ahead, clearly you need to squeeze welfare spending to hit your

targets. You have a huge ideological difference with the Liberal

Democrats, don't you? Liberal Democrats can speak for themselves.

What I would say is this. Our welfare bills have got out of

control and we have had to deal with that. We have had to bring welfare

costs down and take incredibly difficult decisions. What are the

next targets on welfare? I am not going to set out the Autumn

Statement now. Go on! Or indeed the statement for the next Parliament.

But we are taking action to make sure when you turn up at the

Jobcentre, actually the first thing you have to do is look for work. We

are taking action to help the long-term unemployed, who have been

left behind in previous recoveries. And we are taking long-term action

to make sure EU migrants cannot simply come to this country to claim

benefits. There is action under way on welfare but I am glad we have to

do more. Ultimately the cost of welfare is one of the things that

make public finances and we are taking long-term action to make sure

EU migrants cannot simply come to this country to claim benefits.

There is action under way on welfare but I am glad we have to do more.

Ultimately the cost of welfare is one of the things that make public

finances unsustainable. On your own numbers you have to do a heck of a

lot more. You talk about shrinking in abstract terms. What will the

welfare system look like after another five years of George Osborne

as Chancellor? I want a state that helps Britain and the people of

Britain succeed in the modern world. I want to make sure our schools are

equipping our kids with the right skills were great careers. I want

the best health care in the world. I want to make sure the police have

what they need to do their job and we have been reminded in Glasgow of

what an incredible job they do. That is the sunny side of the street and

I am asking about the other side. One thing we have learned, if you do

not get a grip on finances and have a long-term economy plan, you

literally go from boom to bust and that is not a sensible approach. I

am not disagreeing with you. I am just asking you to paint a full

picture of what will happen after five years of austerity and cuts in

welfare. Where will the cuts go? How will the welfare system look and be

different? The welfare system should help those genuinely in need but

should have very strong incentives, to put it mildly, that people have

to work if they can. One of the successes of this recovery has been

the creation of jobs. Ed Balls would talk about the jobless recovery if

he possibly could. He cannot. It is a job- rich recovery. Jobs created

in the private sector since we came to office. I want to make sure those

jobs are available for young, British kids, making sure they have

the right skills, the opportunities, apprenticeships, whatever, to make

sure they are part of what I hope is a more prosperous world. George

Osborne, thank you very much for joining us. Now the news headlines.

Good morning. The Chancellor of the has confirmed that green levies on

energy companies will be rolled back, saving consumers on average

?50 a year off their bills. George Osborne said the cost would

be met instead by the Government, financed through a further crackdown

on tax avoidance. The Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls accused the

Government of running scared of energy companies, who have been

putting prices up year after year. He said a policy of price freezing

would be more effective. A rescue and recovery operation is

taking place at the pub in Glasgow where helicopter crashed into the

roof, killing at least eight people. Witnesses reported its

dropping out of the sky and hitting the Clutha Vaults on Saturday night.

One of the victims has been named as Gary Arthur, 48-year-old from

Paisley. 14 people remain in hospital with serious injuries.

The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock. Thank you.

I am joined by the Chancellor again and Ed Balls, and Robyn Hitchcock, a

one-time arts college student and now a hugely successful folkrock

musician. I remember when you were in The Soft Boys. They are too young

to remember punk. It is now a softer sound. And you are promoting a

festival. Yes, something bijou in freshwater Bay in the Isle of Wight.

We need sponsorship. How will this differ from every other bijou arts

festival? It will be gorgeous and miniature. Everyone will be tiny and

very quiet. Marvellous. And you are going to play a gorgeous and

miniature little song in a moment. I will let you prepare for that. Thank

you. I was just thinking about other things we could talk about in a

genial fashion on Sunday morning and I wondered about equality, and I

thought that we cannot have equality because so many of us have IQs below

80, which is bad for the species. I wonder if you would share Boris

Johnson's language about this or not? Well, I would not have put it

like that. I think you would. I don't agree with everything he said.

I think there is increasingly common agreement across the political

spectrum that you cannot achieve equality of outcome, but you should

be able to achieve equality of opportunity and education is the key

to this. He was saying we should bring back grammar schools. Whatever

their critics, in the 1950s, through the grammar school system more kids

from poor backgrounds came to the top of good jobs compared to now. I

think it is back to the 80s not the 50s. Even Margaret Thatcher did not

bring back the grammar schools. Greed is good and the poor are poor

because they are stupid? That is outdated. There is too much of that

attitude around in politics. Talking about greed is good, are you

disturbed, outraged or relaxed about banker bonuses which we are now

seeing again, including at RBS, which is owned by the Government?

One of the reasons that we know about these million pounds bonuses

is because the Government now requires the banks to publish

information. It is not as though those bonuses were not paid before.

Bonuses are now 80% lower than when it was in the Treasury. I am clear

that the banking system needs to take account of the climate and the

world that we are in. A bit early for the return of Gordon Geckos

everywhere. Of course we want a successful banking system and there

are many people working in Leeds, Manchester, Bristol and Cardiff and

it is an important industry for the UK. We are making the banking system

safer because ultimately what is absolutely essential is that when a

bank fails, it is not the British taxpayer that steps in, and actually

with the Co-op, very sad story, the taxpayer does not have to step in.

Different banks for the future and tough regulation, which was not

tough enough in the case of the Co-op. But we should use taxes to

get young people back to work and make the country fairer and stronger

for the future. No more Christian Methodists while we are at it. Not

something I have ever done! I am sure that is true. Thank you very

much. I encourage you to join us again at the same time on BBC One

next Sunday morning. Meanwhile, we leave you with Robyn Hitchcock and

his song So You Think You're In Love.

# So you think you're in love # Yes, you probably are.

# But you wanna be straight about it.

# Oh, you wanna be straight about it now.

# So you think you're in love. # Yes, you probably are.

# But you wanna be straight about it.

# Oh, you wanna be straight about it now.

# Can you imagine what the people say, can you?

# But the silent majority. # Is the crime of the century, you

know it. # Are you sure that it's wise?

# no, you probably ain't. # You don't wanna be faint about it.

# Oh, you shouldn't be faint about it now.

# by the look in your eyes. # no, you probably ain't.

# But you shouldn't be faint about it.

# Oh, you gunner be faint about it now.

# What is love made of? Nobody knows.

# What are you afraid of? Everyone knows.

# It's love, it's love. # So you think you're in love.

# Yes, you probably are. # But you wanna be straight about

it. # Oh, you gotta be straight about it

now. # So you think you're in love.

# Yes, you probably are.