08/12/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

What was it that made Nelson Mandela is so irresistible? There is an

interesting account by his biographer, John Carlin, in the

Sunday Times. Three things, he says. First, integrity, what you saw was

what you got. Second, huge personal generosity, treating everybody with

respect, everybody alike. And then charisma. Few of us have that, but

integrity, generosity and respect is not a bad start. He says his

speciality was simply killing apartheid with kindness. Days on,

there is a lot more to say about the legacy of Nelson Mandela and the

papers are already asking what is ahead for South Africa. Sir Trevor

McDonald will help review today's papers, along with Gillian Tett,

assistant editor of The Financial Times.

We are going to start a lot closer to home. It has been a wild and

freezing few days, with many people worried about fuel bills. How would

you feel, how would you cope, if the power went off? Independent reports

say that as a country we are close to the edge and could face blackouts

next winter. To talk about keeping the lights on and the cost to

families of doing so, I am joined by the boss of one of the big six

energy companies, Vincent de Rivaz of EDF. The Chancellor has given the

Autumn Statement and new information has come out about the scale of the

cuts to come. Does Danny Alexander also want to see the shrink of the

state to its 1943 size? Today is the official day of mourning in South

Africa for the man once regarded as a terrorist in this country, who has

now become a kind of global secular saint. But what is his legacy? Neil

Kinnock was a stalwart of the anti-apartheid campaign and new

Nelson Mandela. He will be talking about that and reflecting on British

politics. Many musicians were prominent in the campaign for Nelson

Mandela's release from prison, including Sting, who played a 70th

birthday concert for him at Wembley. His latest album, the last

ship is all about the decline of shipbuilding and what it meant for

communities in the north-east. Listen to that accident. He's going

to be telling us about that and performing a song from the album. A

busy show. -- accident. MPs are set to receive an 11% pay

rise when a Parliamentary watchdog publishes its final recommendations

on salaries next week. The increase is due to come into effect after the

2015 general election and will take MP page ?274,000 a year. David

Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have all criticised the planned

rise, but will not be able to prevent it.

For once, they are all saying the same thing. David Cameron, Nick

Clegg and Ed Miliband all believe that this pay rise is too much.

Nevertheless, MPs look set to get a double-digit increase when the

Independent Parliamentary standards authority publishes its final

recommendations on salaries later this week. Currently, an MP owns a

basic salary of ?66,396. The suggestion is that goes up to

?74,000, an increase of 11%, after the next election. However, they

also recommend an increase in contributions that MPs make to their

pensions and cuts in allowances for meals, taxes and other expenses.

From 2015, MP wages would go up in line with average earnings. The

Independent Parliamentary standards authority was established in the

wake of the MP expenses scandal in 2009. It does not need the agreement

of Parliament to bring in these changes. Although the party leaders

disapprove, some MPs say the one-off boost is necessary because backbench

MP pay have fallen behind. Nonetheless, at a time when the

government is preaching austerity, most can see that such an increase

is unlikely to prove popular with taxpayers.

Airline passengers have been warned there could be further disruption

today due to a technical fault at the National Air Traffic Service

yesterday. Hundreds of flights were delayed or cancelled and NATS said

there might be a knock-on effect for services. Airports across the UK say

they are hoping to return to normal operations after the telephone

glitch. In the last few years, and

passengers have seen a major disruptions, whether it be the

terror threats in 2006, striking British Airways staff in 2009 and,

of course, the unpronounceable Icelandic volcano that closed entire

European airspace. In that time, passengers have also acquired far

more rights than ever before thanks to new EU rules. In general, the

airline which you are booked to fly is fully responsible for you until

you reach your final destination. The responsibility starts when you

check in and compensation is triggered once your flight is

delayed by more than two hours or cancelled. Crucially, the airline

must pay for meals and overnight accommodation even if they are not

to blame for the problem. That was the case this weekend. A technical

mishap at the National air traffic managers in Swanwick caused

yesterday's delays, not the airlines. But it is highly unusual

for carriers to sue air-traffic controllers to recoup costs

incurred. Although there is far more protection for disrupted passengers,

it will not compensate for the mental anguish and lost time that is

now part of air travel. People in South Africa are taking

part in a day of prayer and reflection for late president Nelson

Mandela. President Jacob Zuma will attend a church in Johannesburg with

other multi-faith service planned throughout the day. A national

memorial will be held on Tuesday ahead of a state funeral on Sunday

the 15th of December. South Africans have been holding vigils since Mr

Mandela died on Thursday at the age of 95.

That is all from me. I will be back with the headlines just before ten

o'clock. In a moment we will have the review

of the papers. First, world leaders will soon be arriving in South

Africa for the memorial events for Nelson Mandela, culminating in his

funeral in seven days time. I joined from Soweto by James Robbins. You

are standing outside a church, why? Here in the centre of Soweto, just

one of hundreds of thousands of churches, places of worship, where

South Africans are gathering on this national day of prayer and

reflection. This is an extraordinary church, at the heart of the

anti-apartheid struggle. People came here to seek refuge inside the

church, where, notoriously, on one occasion, the South African security

forces stormed inside and fired live rounds. The church was always a

central to the anti-apartheid struggle. It is a highly appropriate

base for a mass that is going on behind me to be held. You would hear

the sentiments, the praise being sung, you will hear from across

South Africa as many scattered communities come together to pay

tribute. There will be waves of pride and sadness. What about the

future? The ANC is not the party that Mandela foundered when he left

prison. And Jacob Zuma, the current president, is no Mandela either?

That is absolutely right in the view of many South Africans, I think.

There is a disaffection within and outside the ANC. There are

criticisms that it has abandoned Nelson Mandela's integrity and much

of the party has descended into cronyism and even corruption. These

are claims strenuously denied by President Zuma and those close to

him. But it is clear that the ANC will not be able to live for ever on

the legacy and example of Nelson Mandela. I think politics after this

week, after this extraordinary week that we are beginning to see unfold,

will be quite different. The front pages of the papers, lots

of Mandela. There is a picture of Mandela when he first came to London

in 1962 in The Observer. Their main story is about Blairites taking over

the running of Labour's election campaign. It is presented as a

sinister takeover by men dressed as the Spanish Inquisition. Alistair

Campbell, all of that lot are back, they say. The Sunday Times, the main

story, as you heard on the news, the 11% pay rise for MPs. Dammed if they

do, dammed if they don't. It says Nigella Lawson has won in the court

of public opinion. Good for Nigella, but that is the most fickle

and dangerous court in the land, I would suggest. The Independent on

Sunday has a picture of 11 is on the front page. The Mail on Sunday has a

picture that, for once, will please David Cameron. Send them back home

says the leading UKIP supporter, former Conservative. That is the

kind of anti-UKIP story that he needs. The Sunday Express, they have

sold their front page to Chanel number five. Your interview with

Nelson Mandela was the first when he came out of prison? It was. To me,

it remains an extraordinary moment. I could not believe that somebody

who had spent and contribute long time away, could come out so

absolutely focused on what he needed to do to move his country forward.

With such a conspicuous lack of bitterness. You kept trying to get

him to talk about the horrible time he had in prison and he would not do

it? He refused. It must have been awful for you, I said. I was looking

for a headline. Mandela tells McDonald, I was beaten every day.

Not a word of it. All in the past, he said. I must concentrate on the

future and my country's future. I failed. I also failed to get him to

acknowledge there were any fundamental problems in coming to a

political accommodation with the national party. We tend to forget

that he was a very, very shrewd politician. He knew exactly what he

wanted to say at any particular time. He didn't give too much away.

He didn't give his hand away. He was very self disciplined. He had

studied his opponents very closely. He spent a lot of time on Robben

Island reading about their history and so on. He knew exactly how to

approach them. He knew what he wanted and how to get it. The papers

this morning are absolutely full of Mandela commentary. But I would pick

up this particular piece from the Observer. A contrast, on the one

side we have a wonderful piece by Desmond Tutu, echoing many of the

points about the extraordinary skill with which Mandela not only captured

or mastered political theatre, but also shows such incredible

forgiveness, understanding and empathy. But that is the older

generation. The other piece that is very important is on the other side

of the page by a young South African columnist. He has pointed out that,

notwithstanding Nelson Mandela's strawberry achievements, for the

younger generation he is increasingly starting to fade off

the radar screen. -- extraordinary achievements. The unspoken truth in

South Africa is that he has been politically irrelevant since 1999.

The problems remain very tragic, very big. Unfortunately, although

you might think that has been a Hollywood ending for Mandela, he has

not fixed the entire country, in spite of his achievements. The

Observer has taken on this point about the post-Mandela world. I'm

surprised so many people do this. I suppose it is obvious to do it at

the death of Mandela. But the post Mandela world started a long, long

time ago. He was determined to spend only a few years in the presidency.

After that, there was Thabo Mbeki, Jacob Zuma, that world, what he

symbolised, has gone. The Observer has this wonderful memory of the

moment in 1995, when the Rugby World Cup, which at Africa incidentally

one, a nice Hollywood ending, a wonderful thing of putting on the

T-shirt. The shirt of the supremacist, white South Africa? He

was great at making these grand gestures. Not grand speeches, but

very important, symbolic... He was very good at shirts. I loved the

story when he went to Buckingham Palace, he said, to the rest of the

ANC leadership, they said, white tie, tails. All of these former

guerillas turned up like that. And he turned up in his traditional

dress, laughing at them. If you want a cause for optimism in this cynical

age, another piece from Andrew Lansley, again, in the Observer,

this points out, notwithstanding that you had so much political

theatre and strategy, at the end of the day you had a man that managed

to put a sense of good back into politics. It's so easy to be very

cynical about the political process. Sometimes, good can come out of

politics and he showed that. Let's turn to Trevor. You are talking

about other issues. We're talking about good in life, also what goes

wrong this morning. Travel glitches. We saw on the news that all of these

people have been struggling in airports. A computer glitch, it

says? I find it quite extraordinary. Here we are, in this modern

technological world, and we are led to believe that all of these will be

taken care of. All we have to do is get our iPhone working properly, our

apps, and in fact these things provide a great deal of trouble. One

glitch in the system and people are stranded, hundreds of holiday-makers

stranded for hours and hours. What is interesting about that, we have

had the same problem with the NHS, with computers. Iain Duncan Smith's

department has had problems in the same area. Across the Atlantic,

Barack Obama's health-care plan, the plank of his second term of his

presidency, it all goes wrong because people get onto the system.

This is in America, this is not Rwanda. One of the most

technologically advanced countries in the world. A key political plank

of his goes awry. The more sophisticated the technology, the

more vulnerable we are, rather than the freer we are?

Turning to the British economy. For those rich foreigners who can

get through the travel chaos, this is on property prices in the

capital. The figures are extraordinary, a 10% increase in

prices over the last year. $1.5 million average houses are

two-bedroom apartments, in London. This is not just about London but

the British economy. The question is, can you celebrate a boom still

built on property price increases and a growing disparity between rich

and poor? Is that sustainable? And debt, ?2 trillion of domestic debt.

The Chancellor unveiled some better than expected figures for growth

but, it is this just a sugar high, will it last?

And teaching? A great story about a headteacher

who advertised for an assistant. He got all these replies which were

illiterate. One person said, I like to see students "bossom." I think he

meant blossom. He listed as his experience, and person listed as his

experience, flying a single engined plane.

In many respects, teachers do a superb job, but there are some

fundamental problems in the system, this is what this piece tells us.

Qualifications aren't everything, you do need the charisma.

But not the experience of flying a light aircraft.

My next one is different, Alzheimers. My mother died from

Alzheimers basically, it is an issue of personal interest. David Cameron

has said he wants Britain to lead the fight in the global fight

against dementia. Barack Obama announced $100 million towards a

brain research Centre. There needs to be more co-ordinated global

action. The spend on Cancer Research UK is much higher. A little plug for

the fact David Cameron has picked up an important cause.

The other thing I wanted to talk about, Nigella Lawson winning in the

court of public opinion. I would imagine many women would

have cheered this. Not only is this a story which is powerful and

emotional, it is a cautionary tale about what can happen to a woman

like her who gets entranced by a rich man and thinks her problems are

solved. A warning to young children, young women across Britain who

looked at a pretty woman and think, I will be swept away and rescued. A

tragic story. She has come through looking dignified, fighting back.

We have been talking about image and clothing. She looked like an

extraordinary renaissance princess. She did so in a dignified way

without hurling insults. I suspect after all this happened, she will

come back even stronger than before.

One final thought on Mandela. The story in the Observer newspaper,

about the business of the post-Mandela world and the symbol he

was. I also remember, one thing is he was absolutely realistic about

the way things should work. On that first day I met him, at the end of

the interview, they wanted him to come out and make a big speech about

freedom, equality, justice for all. He looked at the crowd and said, go

back to school. An intimation of political mortality do like I have

never heard. Standing with ANC stalwart Majak Daw. He said, we are

not going to be here very long, the future belongs to you -- ANC

stalwarts. Now to the weather. And it's a bit

calmer after the storm, and milder too. Let's get more detail from Stav

Danaos in the weather studio. It is looking much calmer generally

because of high pressure which will continue to dominate. But the

southern half will do well. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, windy

and increasingly wet. The rain will pile up as we head through the

afternoon. A very wet 24 hours, strong, gale force winds. Drier

interludes across eastern Scotland. Temperatures up to 13 Celsius.

Outbreaks of rain in the North of England and North Wales. Away from

here, a dry picture. Heading into next week, staying on the mild side.

One or two showers. This is the picture for Monday, a chilly start

in the south. Central and eastern England will be fine and dry. Breezy

across the north and west. The rain will gradually ease away. The

temperatures up to 12 Celsius. Staying that way through the week.

Turning a little colder midweek. During Nelson Mandela's

imprisonment, South Africa became a hugely divisive issue here. The

sporting and cultural boycotts were hotly debated, as was the question

of economic sanctions. Neil Kinnock was leader of the Labour Party, as

the momentum and pressure for change from within and outside South Africa

grew. He met Nelson Mandela on several occasions after he was

released from prison, and he joins me now. Good morning. Hello. The

first time you met him was in Sweden. Yes, the social Democratic

Prime Minister of Sweden, a good friend of mine. Sweden had provided

support for the ANC and South Africans generally in exile as well

as in the country, in a way no other country had. Nelson's choice was to

go there first. A huge privilege for myself and my wife to go and meet

him. What was extraordinary about it was, we were in the foreign ministry

in Stockholm, we went to the head of the queue ahead of the Cabinet will

stop we were with the TV lights. Mandela walked through the door,

walked straight up to us and said, you are Neil Kinnock, you are clever

skin. I said, how did you know? He said, I have been looking at your

photographs. He had on the wall in his prison cell, photographs of all

the people who had spoken in Trafalgar Square and demonstrated.

He knew all their faces. How important was the British

anti-apartheid movement? He called London the second world headquarters

of the anti-apartheid movement. From the late 1950s, through the 1960s,

there was a very strong anti-apartheid movement here. And,

of course, South Africans in exile, black and white, played a

substantial part in that. You and Margaret Thatcher memorably clashed

on this. In a sense, she called him a terrorist, and he was involved in

a paramilitary wing. They resorted to violence, as it turned out, quite

mild violence, in utter desperation. Especially in the wake

of the Sharpeville Massacre. When it became apparent that the Afrikaner

domination of South Africa, the party regime, would only respond to

violence, because violence was its main tool. It was a reluctant

decision, but it was a firm decision. They did what they could

to disrupt the state, and to draw attention globally to the massive,

deep injustice of apartheid. It was for that offence that he and the

rest of his comrades were sentenced to life imprisonment in the trials

in 1964. In this country, the argument was over sanctions. Would

it work? A huge debate about the sanctions, even when we were in a

Labour government. And the great change the Harold Wilson comment

made in 1974 was to end the agreement with South Africa by which

we had docking facilities and rearming facilities for our fleet.

Hugely controversial. Even the Wilson government did not make any

substantial steps in the direction of the investment and material

sanctions, which were the essence of the sanctions campaign. It was US

Congress, a Republican dominated Congress, which passed their

sanctions against South Africa legislation and made a huge

difference, when they cut the investment into South Africa.

Looking ahead, we say there is no Hollywood ending. If you were in

South Africa as a citizen, I suspect you would not be a member of the ANC

which has problems of corruption and disillusionment. I might be part of

the reform wing of the ANC and -- which is flourishing happily. Every

party needs its renovation and refreshment. Even in a party with

the extraordinary discipline of the ANC, it is clear that there needs to

be substantial change in its system of appointments, operation at local

and national level. People in the ANC arguing that are showing huge

integrity and courage. I suspect that Nelson Mandela's arguments will

be substantially in their director and, he was acutely aware of the

transitory nature of achievement and the need to keep building. He made

that plane. Real politics goes on. Are you an optimist about South

Africa? I am, partly because of the huge resource of its people that

they have shown even in the most dreadful circumstances. Their

ability to be innovative and forward looking. Secondly, the gigantic

natural resources. If more fairly shared, it could fuel a real

development of South Africa so it is one of the rich countries. Most of

the press are lined up fame against him. He had 300 Tory MPs, if you

look at the recordings, screaming their heads off against him. It is

the truth, as they well know, which is why they organised it, that

barracking on a sustained basis is hugely distracting. All he wanted to

do, and he was right, is get through the truths, that we are faced by a

cost of living crisis, and a government out of touch with those

realities and not responding. Secondly, every single one of the

objectives that George observed -- George Osborne set in 2010, he has

utterly failed. Balance of payments deficits... It is vital we take the

opportunity of interviews like yours to get across those truths again.

Nevertheless, there is no money looking ahead. The huge debt hangs

over the next government. Individual personal debt is massive in this

country. What happens when there is no money left? We can use the same

attitude as evident in the last genuine austerity government. Since

George Osborne wants to take us back to 1948. And that is austerity that

has two characteristics. It is fair at every possible level, and the

broadest backs there are the heaviest burden. They are doing the

opposite now. Secondly, austerity is used as the basis for renewal and

prosperity, instead of being used as an excuse to cut the state back to

levels where it becomes rudimentary. That must mean income tax rises,

which will leave the current Labour Party open to the same tax

bombshell? It depends who is required to pay the additional tax.

What we have is a country in which the top rate of tax on people on

over ?150,000 per year has been cut from a 50% rate, down to a 45% rate.

I'm not saying they should pay for everything. You think it should go

up? Banker bonus taxation should be restored to the rational system that

we had and we should have a copy rate of 50%. That is clearly the

Labour Party's unerring policy. When we say we are going to balance the

economy, balance the books, let's do it in a rational way which includes

the sustaining and development of the civilised parts and the

essential, efficient parts of life, including education, including

research and development, and not destroy, in a bid to apply an

ideology, an ideology of reducing the state, our country to a very

long period of extremely low growth. Higher taxes for the very rich? Oh,

yes. Rarely has energy policy been so

high on the political agenda. And yet power for homes and businesses

is one of our most basic needs. Accommodation of rising bills, the

pressure to go green and warnings about possible shortages next winter

has suddenly ignited. For the past few weeks, energy has been the hot

topic at Westminster. Energy companies have not had a good press

recently, criticised for making excess profits on the backs of their

customers. Most of the bosses have frankly run for cover. Not, I'm glad

to say, Vincent de Rivaz of EDF, one of the big six, who joins me now.

The Chancellor was telling us that ?50 is given to come off every

energy bill. That's not true, your customers are not going to get ?50

off? It is not good enough for the energy companies to say nothing can

be done. That is why we were the first to take action. I was

confident that we would be able to build on the costs. That is why we

have limited the rise in our bills in anticipation of what happened

when the government decided to find solutions. You made the cut ahead of

time, as it were, rather than afterwards? Typically, your

customers on fixed terms contracts will not see ?50 coming off the

bill? There are a lot of customers on fixed term contracts. It is a

good deal. By the way, we have gained 600,000 customers. We needed

it away together, politicians and industry, to address the real issue

of rising bills. It is a real issue, they are hurting and I think action

can be taken. On the short-term, action can be taken. I think more

can be done. Have you been asked to freeze prices until 2015? No, we

have not been asked to freeze prices. What I think is very

important is that we have to work together to build on the costs. On

the short-term, we have this short-term issue. At the same time,

we need to think about the long-term. We need to invest in this

country. I want to come onto that, very much. To keep the lights on.

Long-term and short-term, the challenge is the same. How to do

that in an affordable way. How to do that in such a way that we do not

abandon the vulnerable, that we do not drop our objectives. At the same

time, we keep the lights on. I want to talk about that in a minute.

Before I do, what about the idea of a price freeze, the Labour idea of

freezing prices for 18 months? Would that work? The politicians are right

to ask questions and challenge us. There are many ways to address the

question. I think the best way, frankly, is to join forces to take

down the cost. What we have proposed, we are the first to take

action, and we need to do more, I think. There are more opportunities

to get down the costs in future. And has been said if you brought in a

price freeze the energy companies would simply raise the prices before

the freeze and then the minute it finished raise the prices again. Is

that fair? I think we should not behave like that. We have a

responsibility, we should be a force for good and part of the solution.

In the short term, we have to take action. On the long-term, we are

also taking action. Through the meaning of the deal that we have had

with the government recently, we have massive investments that will

be made in the UK to build new nuclear plants. Because of the

carbon agreements with the EU and so on, all coal power stations have to

be decommissioned by 2020. That is 40% of our total capacity, thus the

fact that a lot of nuclear power stations are closing. Is it possible

to keep the system running, given the level of closures? Yes, if the

investments are made. You know, we are discussing a lot about all of

these matters. I believe that the government is taking action to

reform, which is working. Where is the evidence? The deal that we have

got with the Government to invest ?16 billion in the UK economy,

creating jobs and opportunities. This is the third power station at

Hinkley point? This deal would not happen if the Government had not

taken action to reform the market, to attract investors, to create the

confidence that investors need to have an long-term, at the same time,

at a fair price for customers. Customers will not pay a penny in

the next decade whilst we are building these new nuclear power

plants. Is this actually going to happen? It has not been signed off

yet? I am very confident. Of course we have some hurdles to overcome.

Causing the finance of the project as a whole, getting the clearance of

Brussels. But we have the foundation of it. I have to say, I know for a

fact that they were very tough negotiations. They took a long time

and the Government fought very hard on taxpayers' behalf. Ultimately, I

think we have a fair deal. But it is a very, very expensive deal for the

taxpayer. I think the government has guaranteed the price from this power

station at double the current level of power for 35 years, which is why

the EU and many others are looking at this deal. They are not looking

at cancelling the deal. I just mean they are unsure about it. They are

going to investigate, as they should do. It is totally expected, it is

OK, and we respect the decisions. But the customers, we stand on the

side of the customers. They will not pay 1p in the next decade whilst we

will be building these plants. Then they will pay a lot afterwards? They

will pay a price, which is a fair price, which will attract investor

confidence but will be fair for the customers. It will be cheaper than

other sources. It will be a price that is not dependent on the fossil

fuel imported. With the volatility around it. I think it is a fair

deal. If it was not, it would not be a durable deal. I was looking for a

neutral source of information, because everybody is a partisan

player of one kind or another. The rural society of engineering did a

report on energy security and they thought it was a serious danger, if

a feud things went wrong, of the lights going out next winter. Were

they right about that? I think we will have the lights on this winter.

There is a margin which we use. Very small? But we have enough for the

winter. What about next winter? For the next years, what we need to do

is make these investments that are required and make them in a way that

is affordable for the customers. What does that mean in terms of the

kind of generation? More nuclear? There will be more nuclear and I am

sure there will be others. We need to get the right energy mix and at

the same time we need to keep our homes more energy efficient. That is

our common challenge. It is a challenge that we will overcome if

we are working together, joining forces. I am not ready to enter into

any political row. I am not ready for that. Oh, dear. No, it does not

help the customers. What does help the customers is to examine the cost

to see if there is a better way forward is, and I think there is. We

have proven recently, the Government has taken action, it is a first

step. More nuclear power stations with different companies, different

deals around the country for the future, you think? It attracts

investors. You have mentioned the Chinese. It is a very good and

positive signal. The British Prime Minister was in China last week. The

French Prime Minister was in China, at the same time, more less. That

means there are political links between our three countries. We have

known these countries for 30 years, have been building and operating in

China with them. They will be our partners. Market reform is working,

it is attracting investors and I partners. Market reform is working,

think it will help to keep the lights on in a way that is

affordable for the customers because we all need to stand together. Our

15,000 employees are a force for good. Thank you for joining us. From

the boss of EDF to a man well known for his environmental activism, as

well as for his music. In 1988, Sting open the Nelson Mandela 70th

birthday concert with his hit, Set Them Free. It was a moment of

powerful symbolism in the push to free Mandela and set South Africa on

the road to democracy. His new album, The Last Ship, is almost like

a novel in folk song about the ship building roots of Sting's Northern

roots. # It all fades to black, and yet I

am back # The town is a strange, magnetic

pull # Like a homing signal in your skull

# In the hemisphere will, wondering how the hell you got here

# It's like an underground river, a stream

# That haunts your head and once your dreams

# And used of those dreams in a canvas sack

# And there's nothing around here but the wild world

# And yet, and yet, you are back... #

We haven't had a Geordie accent like that from you for a while? I only

get the accent when I'm angry, my kids always know. This is the first

new album you have produced for a long time? I went back to where I

come from, to my Tyneside roots. I come from Wallsend, a big shipyard

town. I started to write songs about the community I was brought up in. I

was speaking in somebody else's voice, telling their stories, rather

than mine, it relieved me of that paralysis that was worrying me. It

is going to be a Hollywood Opera? A musical? A musical. I think you're

going to launch this in Chicago. Why? Why South Shields? The life of

the thing began in Newcastle. We workshop date with local actors and

local musicians in the Live Theatre on Tyneside. We invited lots of

ex-shipyard workers to give their blessing. They gave us their

blessing. I think there is a universal message that people in any

post-industrial city will understand, what it is like to lose

something that gave you a sense of yourself. It was also quite horrific

for those doing it at the time. It was a very hard life? An

extraordinarily hard life. In my town, it was probably the worst

working conditions in Western Europe. Asbestos, red lead, welding

fumes. At the same time, there was an immense pride in what these men

and women built. The biggest ships in the world, ever constructed, were

built at the end of my street. I wanted to honour that, both sides of

the equation. You give something to your critics, you live this

glittering, golden life in the States, are you sentimental about

the North? I'm essentially annex I of my community, I spent a lot of

energy trying to escape that life. And yet I think it gives me an in

into the prescribing it. It's a word rich album, I call it like a little

novel. When you came back to writing, you went from that rather

underrated and underappreciated genre, English folk, because we have

Irish and Scottish folk, English folk, a huge tradition in the

north-east? Yes, Northumbrian folk music, but it also has a lot of

immigration from Scotland and Ireland. Newcastle has a very rich

folk tradition. I needed to address that in the music. I mentioned the

1988 Mandela concert, you nearly didn't make it? I have no memory of

it. I read that the guy that set it apart to go to your hotel to tell

you about it and get you to pull out of a European gig and get there?

That does not sound like me at all. OK, no memory, but it was a great

moment, it did happen, it is on tape. We are going to hear The Last

Ship, the opening song of the album, at the end of the show. Tell us a

bit about whose voice you are singing in. It is a priest singing,

a local priest. Fantastic. Thank you for joining us. You can see When The

Last Ship Sails, Sting's musical tribute to his shipbuilding heritage

on ABC one in two weeks time. Now back to the domestic issue of

the moment, the economy. The government is cautiously celebrating

the return of growth. But the struggle to balance the books goes

on. In his Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced more cuts in

departmental spending, to pay for promises of free school meals, and a

tax break for married couples. Has he done enough? Do the sums add up?

I'm joined by the Lib Dems' man at the Treasury, the Chief Secretary

Danny Alexander. Welcome back. Free school meals, a

core offer from the Lib Dems, funded until 2015, what happens

afterwards? There is a total amount of spending, but because we haven't

allocated departmental spending totals after then, it sits within

the overall amount of money set aside. It is funded within that

overall total. It is a permanent commitment made by this government

to ensure every child in the first three years of school has a female.

Because it helps their parents with financial pressures. Nonetheless, it

is not funded in the sense you will have to make cuts elsewhere to carry

on paying for it. There will need to be further measures to balance the

books as we get towards the target of dealing with the structural

deficit. That will include funding a range of things. None of those have

spending totals set out for them at the moment. It is a commitment made

throughout that period. As a Liberal Democrat, I would like to see some

of those decisions made by raising taxes on the wealthiest in this

country. You agree with Neil Kinnock about the 50p tax rate? No, I do not

agree we should go back to a 50p rate. We would like to see a mansion

tax. That wouldn't raise much. ?2 billion a year, a useful

contribution. And other measures on the wealthy as well. The further

steps we take as a country don't have to be met through further

spending reductions. George Osborne wants it to come from spending

reductions. Then the cuts will be huge. You can't take money on

pensions, the NHS or schools, it doesn't leave many targets. Local

authority budgets would have to be massacred. I took the decision in

this Autumn Statement to protect local authority budgets, we didn't

reduce them by 1% as central government. We have given them more

money, particularly for council houses. We need to see more social

house-building going on. How do you make those cuts? You would have two

make very deep and substantial new cuts to achieve that balanced

budget. There has to be further savings, you are right. The decision

in this Autumn Statement is we're not going to use the benefits of

growth in terms of lower deficits, our debt is falling more quickly

than previously forecasted, to spend that money, because we need to

balance the books. I would ask the wealthy to pay more in taxation,

making central government more efficient. There are things

happening at the moment we might want to reverse. The Lib Dems do not

support a tax breaks for married couples, so there are some things as

a party... You are distancing yourself from the Conservatives. I

would say there are big differences between our parties. We want a

strong economy and a fair society. You need the Lib Dems to keep the

country in the centre ground to have both. Labour couldn't develop a

stronger economy. But I don't think the Conservatives by themselves

could be trusted to deliver fairness. When it comes to the rich,

beyond the match in tax, what else would you do? We had a set of

proposals at our conference this autumn, including a mansion tax,

capital gains tax. There is a lot in the Autumn Statement on tax

avoidance and there is more we could do particularly for large

corporations. There would have to be further spending restraint as well.

In a future coalition, would you rigourously oppose deeper welfare

cuts particularly on household budgets? There does, there will have

to be further welfare reform which is why I am a strong supporter of

the universal credit. Doesn't that spell trouble? There have been if

you difficulties over the last few months. Now we have a realistic plan

for what is the largest reform of our welfare system that we have seen

since the system was created in this country. It should be taken at a

realistic pace. Removing housing benefit from young people? As a

party we have not supported that. It is not part of our proposals in the

next election. What I do strongly support is what we, as a coalition,

have announced. A cap on overall welfare spending so governments have

to be accountable when costs on welfare arise. The consequence

being, departmental budgets get squeezed. I have been asking

politicians but nobody seems worried. Personal household debt. ?2

trillion, a huge overhang of debt on the economy. Of course I am

concerned about that. It appears people are spending more than they

have got. Households are spending by borrowing. You are right to raise

that. Household debt is lower than it was as a share of the economy

before the crisis. It is one reason why we have been firm we need to

stick to our plan. The only way to sustainably increase people 's

living standards is to have a recovery on firm foundations. In the

meantime, we can cut income tax, a big commitment by Lib Dems to a

?10,000 tax-free allowance, so people can be better off. We are

tightening our belts but MPs are getting an 11% increase. Do you

support that? Most people will find it incompatible, at a time of pay

restraint in the public sector, squeeze on public spending, that

this should be recommended. It would be wholly inappropriate for MPs to

get such a large pay rise when every other public sector worker sees

their pay capped at 1%. I have said in the past, personally, I would not

accept it. Can you do anything as a government? We have made a strong

recommendation making the point I have made that it would not be

appropriate at a time of wider public service pay restraint. Can

you vote to stop it? It is an independent body precisely because

MPs did not want MPs Roche people did not want MPs controlling their

salaries. There is no power in legislation. The recommendations

have not been made yet. My point would be, even at this late stage,

it should recognise the wider climate of the economy and people's

living standards. Now over to Sally, for the news

headlines. MPs are set to receive an 11% pay

rise, when a parliamentary watchdog publishes its final recommendations

on salaries this week. The increase is due to come into effect after the

2015 general election, and will take MPs pay to ?74,000. David Cameron,

Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg all criticised the planned rise, but

won't be able to prevent it because the Independent Parliamentary

Standards Authority does not need the agreement of Parliament to bring

in the changes. Airline passengers have been warned

there could be further disruption today, due to a technical fault at

the National Air Traffic Service yesterday. Hundreds of flights were

delayed or cancelled, and NATS said there might be a knock-on effect for

services. But airports across the UK say they are hoping to return to

normal operations after the telephone glitch.

Hat's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at 1pm. Back to

you, Andrew. We've been talking a lot this morning about Nelson

Mandela. If you used to watch Breakfast With

Frost which, for many years, occupied this slot on Sunday

mornings. You may remember that Sir David Frost, who died only a few

months ago, interviewed him on several occasions. And there was one

visit to the studio which produced a particularly enduring image, as

President Mandela joined in with a performance by Ladysmith Black

Mambazo. # Long walk to freedom, together to

freedom. A great moment.

That's nearly all we have time for this morning. Thanks to all my

guests. Next week, I have to be away, but Jeremy Vine will be here,

with guests including the Hobbit actor Martin Freeman. And the

fantastic jazz musician, Jamie Cullum. So, do join Jeremy for that.

For now, we leave you with a lovely piece of English folk. Sting's

lament for Tyneside past, The Last Ship.

# It's all there in the gospels, the Magdalene girl

# Comes to pay her respects, but her mind is awhirl

# When she finds the tomb empty, the stone had been rolled

# Not a sign of a corpse in the dark and the cold

# When she reaches the door, sees an unholy sight

# There's this solitary figure in a halo of light

# He just carries on floating past Calvary Hill

# In an almighty hurry, aye but she might catch him still.

# Tell me where are ye going lord, and why in such haste?

# Now, don't hinder me woman I've no time to waste!

# For they're launching a boat on the morrow at noon

# And I have to be there before daybreak

# Oh, I cannae be missing, the lads'll expect me

# Why else would the good Lord himself resurrect me?

# For nothing'll stop me, I have to prevail

# Through the teeth of this tempest in the mouth of a gale

# May the angels protect me if all else should fail

# When the last ship sails # Oh, the roar of the chains and the

cracking of timbers # The noise at the end of the world

in your ears # As a mountain of steel makes its

way to the sea # And the last ship sails

# And whatever you'd promised, whatever you've done

# And whatever the station in life you've become

# In the name of the father in the name of the son

# And no matter the weave of the life that you've spun

# On the Earth or in Heaven or under the Sun

# When the last ship sails. # Oh, the roar of the chains and the

cracking of timbers # The noise at the end of the world

in your ears # As a mountain of steel makes its

way to the sea # And the last ship sails. #