15/12/2013 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. First of all, a huge thank you for

successfully negotiating your way to BBC Two and discovering that we are

in action this cold wintry morning. Second, Andrew is in Scotland for a

long standing family commitment. He'll be back next Sunday. Plus,

we've ditched the official signer today. Apparently we talk enough

rubbish without having someone else join in!

Joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers are the

leading Conservative MP, David Davis, plus the writer, broadcaster

and most importantly today, South African, Sue MacGregor.

The health service is in the news. You could almost say it is the news.

We've had stories on Alzheimer's care, on maggots in dirty GP

surgeries, delays at A, and today details of a really big plan to turn

the NHS into a 24/7 operation, so it's not on a go-slow at the

weekends. Well, Sir Bruce Keogh, the head of the NHS in England, is here

to explain how you do that without flushing precious money down the

drain. It'll cost ?2 billion, we're told.

In today's papers there's the row over airport expansion, so the

Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin, will fill us in on

whether the government is changing its mind on Heathrow. Also with us,

the Shadow Business Secretary, Chukka Umunna, can tell us whether

the polls are rattling Labour. As the economy recovers, so does the

government's standing, it seems. We bring you some behind-the-scenes

insight into this season's blockbuster, the latest Hobbit

movie. Its star has been telling me how CGI might one day replace actors

altogether! They can do so much. It is only a matter of time before they

rob us out, I guess. Plus some great music right here in

the studio from one of my favourite musicians, the wonderful Jamie

Cullum. First, as always, the news from Naga Munchetty.

Good morning. The former South African President,

Nelson Mandela, is being laid to rest at his boyhood home of Qunu in

the eastern Cape. The public part of the funeral ceremony is taking place

inside a specially constructed giant white marquee, with around 4,500

mourners. Senior politicians and a number of foreign dignitaries,

including Prince Charles, are paying their last respects. From South

Africa, Peter Biles reports. On a perfect summer morning, they

came to honour South Africa's greatest son. He's the man who once

the struggle is my life. -- once declared. Thousands of members of

the armed forces on duty to ensure that this global event passes

without incident. Inside the grandma key, the coughing

was followed by Mr Mandela's family and closest friends. -- inside the

marquee, the Coffin was followed. A former comrades from the prison

days on Robben Island said he had gone to join the a team of the ANC.

The last time I saw Madiba alive, I visited him in hospital. I was

filled with an overwhelming mixture of sadness, emotion and pride. He

held my hand tightly. It was profoundly heartbreaking. It brought

all emotion from me. This is both a reunion and a goodbye. It is the

like of which South Africa has never seen.

Hospitals in England will have to improve the care they give at

weekends or face costly sanctions under new proposals being put

forward by the medical director of the NHS, Sir Bruce Keogh. Senior

doctors will be expected to provide a seven-day service in order to end

higher death rates on Saturdays and Sundays. There are also plans to

make urgent diagnostic tests available throughout the week.

Ireland is to emerge officially from its three-year international bailout

programme today. It means that the Irish government can borrow again on

the international money markets instead of depending on loans from

the IMF or EU. The country still has huge debts, but there are signs of

improvement, with growth forecast at about 2% next year.

China says that its unmanned spacecraft has begun exploring the

lunar surface hours after the robotic vehicle landed on the moon.

Yesterday it became the first country to land a probe on the moon

in nearly four decades. It will spend three months gathering data.

The country has an ambitious space programme and says it eventually

wants to put a Chinese astronaut on the moon.

That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before

ten o'clock. The government's about to take

delivery of a report on airport expansion. Most people think it

needs to happen, but where? During the last election, the Prime

Minister toured constituencies in West London and said there

definitely wouldn't be a third runway at Heathrow. Now, it seems,

that option will be recommended, and so the question is whether the

government says no or performs the aerial equivalent of a U-turn. The

man in the hot seat is the Transport Secretary, Patrick McLaughlin, and

he joins me now from our Derby studio. Looks like it is Heathrow,

then. I don't think it looks like Heathrow at all. What we did just

over 12 months ago was we asked Howard Davies to set up a

commission. That will report with an interim report this week. It will

come out with its final report in 18 months. Sure, but the Prime Minister

said no ifs, no buts, no expansion. You even put it in your manifesto. I

presume that Heathrow is off the table. What was on the table before

was that the Labour Party were committed to building a third runway

at Heathrow. What has happened since we set up the commission is all the

parties, Gatwick Airport, Stansted airport, the Mayor of London, have

come forward with this print -- with different proposals. Heathrow have

come up with their own proposals with three options as to what might

be possible at Heathrow. They are all Heathrow! Everything has got

Heathrow in it and you have ruled it out. That is what I am saying. I

said the airport have come up with three options. We haven't ruled

anything out. We have asked the commission to look at the problem.

It is a problem which has been caused over ten, 12 years. Everybody

has come forward with different proposals. We will see what the

commission says this week. We have also got to listen to what other

people are saying as well. We have got to think of the environmental

consequences of any of the proposals. But your colleagues at

Goldsmith at Richmond said that if you go for this, it will be an off

the scale betrayal. He said the Prime Minister will never be

forgiven in west London. That will make you laugh in Derby but he might

mind about. The Prime Minister takes the points about the environment

seriously. The whole government takes the environment seriously. We

want to look at it. What is important is that we plan for the

long-term future of the UK. If we are going to compete in a global

race, have a long-term future for the UK, we have to make sure the

country is left behind. That is why we will look at what Boris Johnson

has been putting forward, what Gatwick Airport has put forward,

what Stansted has put forward, what Heathrow as put forward. There are

different options. What is important for the government and indeed the

commission is that we come to the right long-term answer for this

problem, which has been around for some time. Heathrow is back on the

table. The whole question of aviation capacity is back on the

table for the longer term future. One of the things that will be clear

when we have seen the report from Howard Davies is that it is not an

immediate problem, it is something we have got to get right. We have

got the time to get it right. That is what we are doing. It is a

long-term solution for the best of the UK. Aircrafts themselves are

changing. They are becoming quieter and more fuel efficient. It is right

that we judge the whole environmental aspects and get the

right solution for the United Kingdom, not just for London. I am

sorry to keep throwing this at you, but because it was in your

manifesto, because you ruled it out, because the Prime Minister ruled it

out, and because Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, says that if you

bring it back it is scandalous, I want to be clear that it is back in

as an option, despite everything you have said. We have set up a

commission to look at the long-term future of the whole of aviation for

the South East. That is what the commission is doing. What we said at

the last election was that we would not build a third runway in this

Parliament. We will not build a third runway in this Parliament. We

will stick to our manifesto commitment. But it is right for the

long-term future of the UK that we have a panel of experts who have

been regarded as doing a proper and robbery has a job, and I want to see

what their reporters. -- and comprehensive job. Then we can see

the right way forward. And maybe go for long-term at Heathrow. You see

more obsessed about Heathrow than I am. Everybody is obsessed about it!

Indeed, but let's see what the commission says. Thank you for

joining us. Now we go to the papers. Let's have

a look at the front pages for today and see what is cooking. We will

talk about the weekend NHS care shortly with the man who runs the

health service. The Observer, Ofsted chief declares war on grammar

schools. The funeral of Mandela as well. The Sunday Telegraph reports

another transport story. It raises doubts about the whole HS2 project.

And the mail on Sunday, PIN number ten plan to cut benefit for

children. Sue, Euan Sutherland River. I have picked up -- you and

South Africa. This is inevitably out of date. We have been watching the

funeral live. The headline over the Sun newspaper is the Archbishop not

invited to the funeral. We know this morning that Desmond Tutu was there.

It is interesting and significant that the Archbishop felt he had not

been invited. It shows how riven some of the upper echelons of the

ANC are. He has come out of this rather well. He has come out as

somebody who is prepared to criticise the ANC. We remember that

Jacob Zuma was jeered in the stadium. It was remarkable. It took

over the whole stadium. It was a rather shambolic event, sadly. Some

grand things were there and good people were saying things. But it

was too long, too wet, which they couldn't help, but so far this seems

to have gone to clockwork. Closer to home, the child benefit idea. Yes,

bigger -- a big story. This is good to be a big issue in the run-up to

the next election, the question of welfare, the demand from the

economic perspective to cut the size of the welfare budget. This is a

highly contentious one. The idea of cutting benefits beyond two

children. It is a kite flying exercise. This is an article written

by a man in high regard at number ten. What is going on is the

Conservative party are trying to see whether this is popular. I think it

will be. People do want to see an increase in toughness on welfare.

They think they will save a lot. There was a figure going around, 12

billion. It doesn't relate to this. The welfare tightening up so far has

been very popular, and actually very effective. This will be one which

will divide the party. Sue, we are going everywhere, China Moon

landing. All the papers has got that. One wonders, four decades

after Neil Armstrong, where the third World is spending so much

money on this. We know it is about the stage. On the other hand, one

can think of a lot, especially in India's case, that the money could

be spent on. But the rabbit has landed safely. Meanwhile, Iran has

sent up another monkey into space. Different objectives. One hopes it

is the right magic in back. Last time, everybody accused them of

having a stand in the monkey. Europe needn't feel left out. The

Independent on Sunday has one about one small hop for mankind, referring

to the rabbit. It seems a European from a Greek researcher, has

discovered that if astronauts are given food made from raw potatoes,

which is lightly fried and keeps its crisp is, chips are likely to be the

most popular food for astronauts. Oh, dear! It's not clear how they

are going to cook them. After that film, Gravity, anything can happen

in space. Let's go to this EU immigration story, which we will

talk about with Chuka Umunna. Old Aryans and Romanians coming here

from January the 1st? What has happened, on January the 1st, the

accession period comes to an end for Bulgaria, Romania. They then have

free movement, the same rights as anybody else in Europe. Huge fears

that there will be thousands, tens of thousands, if you believe UKIP,

hundreds of thousands of people coming into Britain. It has become a

huge, contentious political issue. The Government is caught, it does

not want to have a fight with the European courts and commission over

it. But that is where it is going. What this is is a story, Theresa

May, the Home Office, they are looking at a variety of policies. I

have to say straightaway, it is a bit closing the stable door after

the horse has bolted. This is all for the future. The issue in front

of them is going to be the 1st of January. These are 70 MPs trying to

put down some legislation, is that you? I assumed it was. I am one of

those on the list. We say to the European Union, look, this free

movement of people was not designed for a time when you have some

countries whose average wage is a third of our minimum wage. If you

and I were Bulgarian or Romanian, we would be on the train on January the

1st to get here. For them, the British economy is riches beyond the

dreams of Aramis. We have to say, let's rethink this and put off for a

couple of years. It can be deferred, even at late stage? I think it may

be too late now. The government has put off the bill, it is an amendment

to a bill that was to be put off. The simple thing is that it should

have been gripped earlier and it should have been dealt with. I'm

afraid coming fairly strong terms. The Europeans are shrugging their

shoulders. We have had experience of 13,000 forecast turning into 1

million or so with the previous expansion. That hasn't all been bad,

don't get me wrong. It has meant a lot of young Brits have not had jobs

or been able to compete, and that is serious in an economy like ours. Mrs

Thatcher and the Queen, we will never stop talking about this

relationship? There are these two plays that have been on in London

and the West End, reflecting on the relationship. This is from the Mail

on Sunday. Secret letters reveal what Maggie really thought about

meetings with the Queen. The Daily Mail put in a Freedom of information

request. It shows that the Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, repeatedly

rescheduled and cancelled weekly audiences. This must be

unprecedented. On one occasion, she turned down an audience because she

preferred to have drinks with a group of French bankers, although

Number 10 officials chose not to explain these. She declined a

generous invitation to a diner and sleep party. That is not just handed

out to anybody at Windsor Castle. And that was because Dennis had a

business engagement the next morning. It was not revealed, it

probably never will be, what Her Majesty thought about this. But her

PPS said, I think we had better stop putting forward these excuses about

not being able to meet Her Majesty. We might offend dreadfully. Possibly

dead, who knows? What we would give to be a fly on the wall, Mrs

Thatcher and the Queen. Do you think they might have secretly filmed it?

Wouldn't that be nice. A poll that asks a strange question about the

political leaders? You were talking about the poll standings in your

introduction. I don't think you were talking about who you want on your

quiz team. The public would pick David Cameron. Huge you would want

to invite your Christmas dinner, I'm afraid George Osborne, the Scrooge

of our age, gets -1. Is this a way of finding out who wins the next

general election? It is a way of finding out how people view their

leaders. Cameron comes out ready well, Miliband comes out better than

you would think. Nigel Farage comes out well on things that happen in

the pub, like the quiz. Who would you like to spend your Christmas

dinner with? My own family, nobody else, none of the above. The other

interesting thing is the standing of UKIP. It is up 18 points, against

the Liberals at eight. The story we were talking about earlier, about

how immigration is going to make it worse from our point of view. I

should have mentioned, the Sunday People, a story with one of my

lovely colleagues? I would love to talk about her, I think she has done

a fantastic job and might well win Strictly. I would like to lower the

temperature at it and mention, if I may, there is a very little about

it. I had to scratch around about this huge story, in my view. The

Independent on Sunday has reflected the execution of Kim Jong-un's

uncle, which has startled the world. It has kind of got out of the

papers. The Independent on Sunday has got a former ambassador to write

a piece about it. He points out that this will be the first time that

many North Koreans have learned officially of heresy at the top of

the regime. They were brought up to believe that Kim Jong-il and Kim

Jong-un were infallible, but they gave trust to a manner that was said

to be no better than a dog. This is a man taken out and machine gun.

There is a rain of terror, it would seem. I think it is very worrying

for the West. Thank you for doing our papers. Ten days until

Christmas, we should not be too surprised if it feels pretty cold,

dark and went through this morning, with a rather more scientific

approach to the weather prospects for the weekend, here is Matt

Taylor. The best of the weather conditions

are out there right now. We are changing for windy and wet as we go

on. Low-pressure spinning up to the north-west of Scotland. Sunshine for

many. Fog is a problem, and it will stay gloomy for many. Look out loud

bricks of rain erotica push northwards and eastwards on

strengthening wind. -- outbreaks of rain pushing northwards and

eastwards. It is windiest to the north of Scotland. Still a windy

night. Outbreaks of rain, driest conditions in the North of

Scotland. Some of the showers in the North of Scotland overnight could

turn wintry. Another mild night. Cloudy to start Monday for a learned

and Wales. Staying wet across the South West. Sunny spells in the

afternoon, still a few showers in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Turning a little bit cooler across the North compared to 13 in the

South. If you are after something drier, sunnier and windy, Tuesday is

your best chance. By the time we go to Wednesday, it all gets wrong

again. Lively wind later in the day. The NHS should be more like a

supermarket according to one of the leading figures remain the

organisation. Services should be more available and just as good at

the weekends. At the moment, patients are more likely to die if

they are admitted to hospital after Friday, incredibly. Sir Bruce Keogh,

the medical director of the NHS, says that must change and the NHS

must become a seven day a week operation. Welcome to you. It is

almost the most obvious idea of all time, to make it seven days. Tell us

why it has to be. Society has moved on, people expect more and more from

services. That is the first point. We have had increasing evidence that

patients are admitted to the weekend at hospitals and have a higher

mortality rate, irrespective of if they are an emergency or elective

case. Interestingly, we have looked at evidence in other parts of the

world and it is exactly the same in North America. This is not a problem

unique to the NHS. But it is one that we are uniquely positioned to

solve. Where we set up as a five day a week operation instead of seven? I

think that is an historical event. Historically we have been good at

providing services five days a week, and providing emergency services.

But medicine has advanced, things have become increasingly more

complex. We had a series of surveys conducted by the BMA, the junior

doctor organisations, which have also shown that junior doctors are

feeling particularly stressed that the weekend because of the

complexity of patients and the complexity of diagnosis and

treatment. They feel unsupported. This has been brought to our

attention. We worry about that, not only because it may relate to high

mortality, but also because it implies that we could be training

the next generation of doctors better. Finally, there is the issue

about are we running our industry efficiently? It seems strange, in

many ways, that we should start to wind down on a Friday afternoon and

warmer on a Sunday, when expensive diagnostic kit is not being used

and, in the meantime, people are waiting for diagnosis and treatment.

But it will be more expensive, won't it? How much more? We are not

convinced it will. A lot of figures are being bandied around and some of

them are red herrings. What we do know is that if you have a more

consultant presents in a hospital, several things happen. Firstly, when

patients are admitted they get treatment quicker. That means

patients spend less time in hospital and the hospital, as a whole, runs

more efficiently. We have looked at eight hospitals, all of which are

different. We have uncovered that this will probably cost about 1.5%

to 2.5% of the running costs. The lowest figure we have seen is ?2.2

billion. Is that the right ballpark? I don't think so, to be honest. 1%

or 2% of entire hospital cost, it could be that? No, it couldn't. The

budget of the NHS is, broadly speaking, 100 ileum pounds. -- ?100

million. Maybe 1 billion? You still have to find the money from another

part of the NHS, that is the issue? Indeed we do, that is where the

challenge comes in. There are many opportunities for doing that. One of

the most expensive costs in all of this is the cost of the workforce.

We are about to start reducing 1800 more specialists in a year than we

have before. -- introducing. Specialists are key, surgeons in at

the weekend, basically. Their contracts don't currently mandate

them to work Sunday, so you have to change their contracts, I guess? As

we know, doctors are phenomenally good at negotiating contracts. You

know, most of my consultant colleagues are in at the weekend

anyway. Most of them have recognised that this is a significant issue.

One of the great things about this initiative is, as the evidence is

accumulated, all people in the NHS, from the managerial community, the

clinical community and others, they have recognised that this is the

right thing to do. When enough people think that something is the

right thing to do, we can find the solution. But that is not really how

employment law works. They will want you contracts, to be paid more to

work Sunday. The fact you know some nice consultants that come in on

Sunday is neither here nor there? They have been supportive of this

particular stance. The two things we can change in the consultant

contract, one is that there is a clause that says that organisations

cannot force consultants to work at the weekend. I think we can have

that clause removed. Really, you can take it out? You say, work Sunday or

you are out of here? I wouldn't put it as starkly as that. What do

consultants get in exchange for having that clause removed from

their contracts? Where this has been put in practice, consultants have

enjoyed increased flexibility it brings to their lives. This is about

different ways of working. In fact, someone said to me today, a chief

executive of an organisation, he said, look, this is not so much

about money, it's about different working practices and proper

recruitment of people. The Health Secretary is behind this. I think

all parties are behind this and I'm delighted the Health Secretary is.

What is the next stage? Getting into seven days could be a ten year

operation. I am taking a paper to the NHS England board on cheese

day. We believe the arguments are compelling, both clinically and

morally. -- choose Dave. We're going to do several things.

The first is we have identified ten clinical standards which will deal

with what our expectations are in terms of biographical capacity in

organisations at the weekend. So, how labs work. Those seem to be the

two things that are at the heart of this matter. We are going to put

that into the NHS contract in an escalating fashion over the next

three years. We are going to make organisations be absolutely

transparent about whether they are meeting these ten clinical standards

or not. We have agreement with health education England, who are

responsible for contracting junior doctors, that they get proper

training. We will ask the Care Quality Commission to make sure that

no hospital gets a rating of outstanding if they are not

implementing these things. So individual hospitals might decide

they don't want to work Sundays? We don't think that will happen. But

they can. Della Manfred these will be contractually -- these will be

contractually binding. But from your point of view it is happening? Yes.

Jamie Cullum is one point of view it is happening? Yes.

sought after musicians in the world. Welcome, Jamie. Great to see you.

so much, I thought I would Welcome, Jamie. Great to see you.

about the music and the style. Is there a song? That time but music is

really rhythmic. Whereas we count one, two, three, four. African music

is in syncopation. You put notes between the notes. They fuse that

with Western jazz and add these" to it. -- these open up chords to it.

It is an incredible history of music that has influenced so many things.

And in nonmusical terms... ? It implies a lot more than you think

without using lots of notes. It is many colours but without using all

the colours are the same time. I guess Paul Simon changed everything

with Grace land, certainly outside South Africa. Now it is a sound

recognise, but at the time people were not familiar with those sounds.

The way they play the guitar it so different to us. Is everything

getting fuse now? Everything goes into the centre. Does that bother

you? Not at all. I love the fact we can listen to so many things. I'm a

real musical magpie anyway. Jazz is amazing music. Abdul Ibrahim is the

father. He was doing that years ago. You have brought other magazine in

your spare time. What made you do this? What is in the pages? I wanted

to indulge my passion for writing and design. I got together with some

talented friends, did something with beautiful writing in, and did

something for real, not just on the internet. It has got some beautiful

writing and it looks beautiful. Jamie, thanks, and I know you will

play for us later on. Now, our next guest is also very talented. Martin

Freeman is a huge cinema star will stop if you are not sure about his

Doctor Watson, you can try Bilbo Baggins. It was the Office that

launched him. We are about to be hit with a double dose of Martin

Freeman. Like most real heroism, it is

involuntary. He doesn't want to go into dangerous situations. But if he

doesn't, he and his friends are going to dive. I found something in

the tunnels. What? What did you find? My courage. Good, that is

good. You need it. It is amazing to watch it as a viewer. I am not used

to special effects on that scale. I'm staggered by what they can do

now. It is truly incredible. There's a feeling that almost nothing isn't

achievable if you have the money to do it and you have a good enough

team. 20 years ago, which was not long ago, you could imagine

something, that was great, but you couldn't realise it necessarily, not

in the way they can now. Do not think I won't kill you. The

lines are getting more blurred as to what is digital. I was going to ask

you about that. Somebody went on set and said it is all done in a car

park and then the stuntmen come on wearing green and every minute

summary comes on and sprays your hair. You must think, wait, I want

to do some acting. You do. There are days when you do less than other

days. There are enough days on this that you do get to feel like you go

home and go, no, I did some work today. A lot of days you do a lot of

waiting around as well. Pete likes to give you as much information as

to what is around you. He wants to give you some context. It is so you

can imagine. Imagination is your chief weapon. There isn't really a

huge dragon. You have to imagine it. You don't know what it looks like,

what it sounds like. If your physical environment is a car park,

it helps if somebody says, by the way, it is going to look like this.

It is good to mention the Dragon. It is an extraordinary creation. Those

20 minutes worth seeing the whole film for.

Do you feel this is darker as a movie than all the others? My job is

to make sure the stakes are where they are supposedly -- to be. This

summary is facing death, the stakes are high. If that... I can't pay the

same character that I was playing before. He has to bring something

else to the part. He is growing up. He is. Innocence to experience. I

wonder if you were aware of that -- the spat between Ian McKellen and

Damian Lewis. Yellow Madrid oh, really? -- oh, really? If that was

his only thing, yes, that is a criticism you could level at

somebody. I do couldn't do it at Ian. There is so much humanity and

talent in that man. Whatever that animal is, he is not one of those

animals. Newsbeat team about the CGI issue? -- do you speak to him. Peter

Jackson never fully denied it when we brought it up. We would say it

half jokingly. I think he enjoyed the fact we were scared for our

livelihoods in that way. They can do so much. It is only a matter of time

before they rub us out, I guess. Hopefully we have got a few decades

left. There will be more Sherlock, for sure. They certainly need you

for that. Any good? Very good. You have seen a lot of injuries then.

Violent deaths. Yes. Want to see some more? Oh, God, yes. Are you

enjoying the thing with him? Hearing his voice, the thing, you are an

item in terms of your careers. There seems to be a bit of mirroring, I

guess. It is enjoyable in these contexts. In Sherlock, we love

working together. It works. Whatever it is, it works. The Hobbit is a

coincidence. I don't think we are going to make a habit of it. But it

has been a funny old time for the pair of us. It has been incredible.

People here might not realise just how big Sherlock is internationally.

It is huge. If I wasn't doing the Hobbit, I would say Sherlock is the

most successful thing I have ever done. To have both of those things

out at the same time is incredible, really. I believe it is called the

good times. Martin Freeman there. Growth up, burrowing down,

unemployed falling. The government says the economy has turned the

corner. Although there is long way to go, it is at last heading in the

right direction. Where does it leave Labour? After three years arguing

that Coalition policies were making the matter worse not better, that

the Opposition need to change its tune? The Shadow Business Secretary

is with me. Before we start on the big picture, I know you have had a

small business fest in the lock-up of weeks. We did. This time last

week we instigated the biggest celebration of business I think we

have seen in this country in a generation. Over 10,000 tweets. We

now know that small-business Saturday, which was the day last

Saturday, pushed around half ?1 billion of spending to our small

businesses. The beauty of this is it wasn't party political. It wasn't

corporate. This was something everybody was able to get involved

with. The reason I instigated it was because I feel that in many

respects, you know there is a lot of talk about the American dream, the

little man taking on the big dies, going on and succeeding? I think we

have our British trained in this country where people -- British

Queen in this country our dream is strong as the American

dream. Just don't talk about it. Let's not forget, small businesses

create almost two thirds of private sector jobs. They add diversity to

each of our neighbourhoods. They are an important part of the supply

chain for bigger businesses. Given what your party did to the economy

while you were in power, why would they support Labour? We know there

was a global crisis. There was a global crash during our time in

office. We have held our hands up and said we should have better

regulated the banks. You spent money you didn't have. We didn't have a

global crash because we invested too much in people, schools, hospitals.

We had a crash because of what happened in the banking sector. I am

talking about before that. You ran up huge debt. The reason we had a

deficit by the end of our time in office was because the global crash

precipitated a big fall in tax receipts. The reason George Osborne

this year alone is going to be borrowing over ?50 billion more than

he planned the beginning of this parliament is because, over the

three years of a flat-lining economy, he hasn't seen the tax

receipts, Corporation and income tax receipts, you need to bring download

the set. -- to bring down the debt. We are 3% adrift. Look at the things

we introduced in office. We saw over 1.1 million new businesses created.

Many of them were small businesses. We put in regional drivers for

growth. They supported small businesses. We created an

environment in which many of them could flourish. Ultimately, what

your viewers are in the business of is the future business. They want to

know what the offer is going to be in 2015 and what we are going to do

now given the issues we have got. Yes, it is good that growth has

returned. From our point of view, it is Labour constituencies where you

see higher unemployment rates when we don't get growth. The return of

growth is welcome. But to what extent is this sustainable? We can't

have a return to business as usual. A lot of people say, because he said

the economy was flat-lining, because he said growth would not come with

these policies, now it has come, you don't have a policy? I don't agree

with that. We said if you choked of growth and went for an overly

austere fiscal consolidation, you risked months of stagnation and no

growth. That is precisely what happened. Now we have growth, the

question is, what kind of growth? There four key tests. Is it bubbly

balanced? Coming from a range of sectors? The problem we had before

2008 was that too much growth was coming from finance, private

consumption and rising house prices. Actually, we want growth

coming from a greater variety of sectors. Secondly, is growth evenly

spread across our country? Not just from London and the south-east,

across the board. Thirdly, are we seeing an increase in exports?

Lastly, are we seeing the business investment? On all of those

measures, we are not seeing the progress we are going to see if we

are going to have better balance and long-term economic growth. Those

other forecasts. On every single one of those, the Government is failing

to meet it. Point taken, the wrong kind of growth. Another story in the

papers, migration. You heard David Davies saying earlier that something

needs to happen with this January the 1st deadline. The Bulgarians,

the Romanians coming. Do you believe that needs to be stopped? We were

clear, we raised this issue with the Home Secretary over eight months ago

that we had to have proper transitional controls in place. What

will happen with people wanting to claim out of work benefits, housing

benefit, jobseeker's allowance. Will that come in and will the

restrictions coming in January? No indication so far. To the extent

that people do come in and show they can work and bring economic

activity, art measures going to be in place to stop undercutting

British workers and stop them being exploited by employers, for example

making sure there is proper enforcement of the national minimum

wage and increasing the fines tenfold. We haven't seen action on

that front from the government. Can I say, a world of caution, -- word

of caution, of course we need a properly managed migration system.

Equally, migration has brought a lot of benefits for our country. Let's

ensure we have a properly balanced debate when it comes to talking

about these issues. Chuka Umunna, Shadow Business Secretary, thank you

very much indeed. Now the news headlines.

The medical director of the NHS in England has set out his plans to

turn the Health Service into a seven day a week organisation. Sir Bruce

Keogh said it was important to get more senior staff to work at

weekends in order to reduce the stress on junior doctors and to

address higher mortality rates for patients admitted on Saturdays and

Sundays. If you have more consultant presence in a hospital at the

weekend, several things happened. Firstly, you do not have

inappropriate admissions to the hospital. Secondly, when the

patients are admitted they get diagnosis quicker and appropriate

treatment is started more quickly. That means patients spend less time

in hospital and a hospital, as a whole, runs more efficiently. The

Transport Secretary has indicated that Heathrow could be expanded if

that is the recommendation of a commission set up to consider how

best to increase airport capacity. Patrick McLoughlin told this

programme that no option had been ruled out and it was important to

plan for the long-term economic future of the country. He said the

Government would take very seriously the environmental consequences of

any proposals put forward is. The former South African President

Nelson Mandela is being laid to rest at his boyhood home of Qunu in the

Eastern Cape. The public part of a funeral ceremony is taking place

inside a specially constructed giant white marquee, with about 4500

mourners. Senior politicians and the number of foreign dignitaries,

including Prince Charles, are paying their last respects.

That is all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at one

o'clock. Chuka Umunna, David Davies and Sue

MacGregor are still with us. We have also been joined by Jamie Cullum. I

will be speaking to the three on the sofa in just a moment. First, we

were all shocked when Andrew severed his stroke in January. As we know,

he has made a brilliant recovery, which is fantastic. He returned to

this chair at the end of the summer. While he was away, the show had to

go on with a number of guest presenters. As it is nearly

Christmas, we thought we would look over some of the more memorable

moments on the show from 2013. If I was coming on your programme

and saying to you, I will promise now to reverse this cut, that cut

and the other... You would say... Well, you would be saying there are

lots of policies. Working with Ed Miliband? The attitude of working

together in the national interest is the attitude I've always had. I will

take that as yes. Do you advise Ed Miliband, does he talk to you about

these things? When you have set in the seat as leader of opposition and

feminist, you know what both jobs are. Why you do say the word, that

you want to be Prime Minister? The words will not cross your lips. Why

not? It's not going to happen. Do you want to be Prime Minister? Say

it. I want David Cameron to win this election. And inability to give a

straight answer to a straight question. I don't want to talk about

this. I will stand for a seat. Have you decided which one? I will be

busy doing other things, but I will think about it.

What is it like working with her? She is so incredibly brilliant, she

seems to lift everybody around her. I am absolutely besotted. Really?

Speaking of red dresses... I never thought about that! Would you take a

little turn? You have described yourself as a modern feminist, is

this modern feminism in action? We have already started changing lives,

it makes me incredibly proud. A bit of Harry Potter hysteria. I love

that you and felt sorry for you, you don't really want that now? It's

fine. It's not about... The hysteria is fine, it's always welcome. You

say things like, you have to keep your feet on the ground. Turn the TV

over, I want to watch the cricket. These are the things that my dad

said to me throughout my life. Small things.

I don't trust the government, I don't want them looking at my

e-mails, some of them are very smutty. I'm not sure if we have had

a cat on the sofa before. Give me a high five. Thank you very much. I do

running in the park. Six miles? I haven't taken on a marathon. I've

been letting you run the marathon is for me. A man who likes to strum?

I'm not going to strum now. Take it away. We'll do our best.

Well, so much to choose from. David Davies, what do you think was the

political shock of 2013? It was not on there, but the decision in the

House of Commons not to go to war with Syria. Single biggest

turnaround. What do you think of Boris? Is he going to be as high

profile in the coming year? Of course he is. I must be careful what

I say, his dad is a neighbour and I often see him in the street. The

biggest shock for me was seeing Ed Balls almost playing an instrument.

The bigger shock last week was seeing Ed Balls in the Kings Place

concert Hall, playing some Schumann. He is quite a good

pianist. It came up in the Commons. I had a remarkable experience where

I went through the division lobby with Ed Balls, dressed as Santa

Claus. Not a site you see every day. Probably a point of order, if

anybody had seen that. Your moment of the year? In many respects, and I

don't just say that because Madiba's funeral is ongoing, I think

so many other world leaders, British politicians, one of the things they

observed about him was that it wasn't just what he stood for, what

he did it was the way he did politics. He was a politician, above

all else. It's interesting talking about Boris. We love these

personalities, the whole Westminster soap opera. But, actually, it is not

about that. If you look at Madiba, it shows how trivial, sometimes,

politics has become. I rather agree. Direct a fascinating piece, saying

he was incredibly concerned about his appearance. But it wasn't just a

vanity. It was even when he thought he was going to be sentenced to

death, he was concerned about how he would luck, Howard would affect his

followers, politicians to his fingertips. His greatest achievement

was bringing the Afrikaner nation on board. I could talk to you for hours

about that, but we haven't got time. We are almost out of time. Thanks to

all of our guests. Andrew will be back on BBC One next Sunday for the

last show of the year. He'll be joined by Vince Cable, as well as

Labour peer Peter Mandelson. He will also be talking to that fine actor

Idris Elba, soon to be seen playing Nelson Mandela in a big-screen

biopic. There will be celebrations of Christmas. As promised, we leave

you with the brilliant Jamie Cullum, and a number from his new album,

this is When I Get Famous. # Well, you were just too damn aloof

# Wearing your Morrissey t-shirt # The kind of girl that's born for

youth # Well, that's a blessing and some

curse # I tell you son beware of those

# Who peak too early # Cos all that magic can't be froze

# And now it's you who ain't worthy # So, baby, when I get famous

# Everybody's gonna see # Oh, oh, oh,

# You never really knew me # Does it make sense to simplify

# Now we're knotted in riddles? # But I don't care, do you know why

# The girls are falling like skittles

# Whoever said you needed rights # To tame your beauty

# I'll say goodbye to lonely nights # Girls form an orderly queue please

# So, baby, when I get famous # Everybody's gonna see

# Oh, oh, oh # You never really knew me

# So given knowledge, given time # I'd take us out of recession

# I'd tell the world that all was fine

# I tell Jeremy Vine that all was fine # And that there freedom's a

blessing # Cause when I'm looking from the

top # You'll all seem smaller

# Ain't that what all us humans want?

# That is what I am not # I'm the one that was taller # So,

baby, when I get famous # Everybody's gonna see

# Oh, oh, oh # You never really knew me. #