19/01/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning. In the week when the entire country has been obsessed by

Benefits Street here's a quote for you: A man who has never gone to

school may steal from a freight car, but if he has a university

education, he may steal the whole railroad. That was Teddy Roosevelt,

the great American President and, apparently, the man Labour's Ed

Miliband most admires. Big-game hunter, cavalry leader, warmonger,

but also the man behind the square deal, backing consumers and the

small guy against big business. Big shoes to aim for. Today, we'll ask

Mr Miliband if he's serious. We have two wise observers for our review of

the Sunday newspapers, Anne McElvoy of The Economist, and our own John

Simpson, BBC World Affairs Editor. But at the heart of the show today,

a rare interview with Vladimir Putin. It might seem odd, but in the

past I've been mistaken for the Russian President - equally

offensive to both of us perhaps. I've been in Sochi, soon to be the

site of the Russian Winter Olympics, to talk to him about the Games,

security, corruption, and the hot topic just now, his attitude towards

gay people. TRANSLATION: I myself know some

people who are gay. We are on friendly terms. I'm not prejudiced

in anyway. The Labour party's beginning to set

out its stall ahead of next year's general election. A big week of

announcements about breaking up the banks, and so on, and we need to

hear from President "Eddy" Miliband about taxes, the deficit, and how

radical his plans really are. So just two big interviews, but we

do have some music too. The Dunwells, the Leeds-based folk rock

band, will be playing for us later on. All of that's coming up, but

first the news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. Police in Edinburgh

have arrested and charged the mother of three-year-old Mikaeel Kular in

connection with his death. Rosdeep Kular, who's 33, is expected to

appear in court tomorrow. Mikaeel was reported missing from his home

in the city on Thursday. Candles to remember Mikaeel Kular, carried by

members of a devastated city, as this memorial service was being held

not far from the toddler's Edinburgh home police were questioning his

mother, Rosdeep, about the discovery of her son's body 20 miles away in

Fife woodland. She's now been charged in connection with Mikaeel's

death. In their final briefing officers thanked the public for

their help. I would like to again recognise and thank everyone for the

overwhelming levels of public support and assistance that we have

seen during the course of this investigation. Including family and

friends of Mikaeel, with whom or sympathies remain. In both Edinburgh

and Kerr code flowers lie in tribute to Mikaeel as the questions mount

the work of forensic officers will continue. Rosdeep Kular is due to

appear in court tomorrow. A British man has been murdered on

the Caribbean island of St Lucia as he tried to defend his wife from

attackers. Roger Pratt was killed on board the couple's yacht in the town

of Vieux Fort on Friday night. His wife, Margaret, was injured. Police

say several people are in custody, but no arrests have been made.

Tributes have been paid to two British men who were among 21 people

killed in a gun and bomb attack in the Afghan capital, Kabul, on Friday

night. Former soldier Simon Chase from County Londonderry, and Del

Singh, a Labour candidate for the European Parliamentary elections,

were among 13 foreigners and eight Afghans killed. The Liberal Democrat

peer Lord Rennard could face a new investigation over his failure to

apologise to women who've complained about his conduct. Liberal Democrat

sources say officials have received complaints that the peer is bringing

the party into fresh disrepute. An internal inquiry has already found

that claims that he harassed party activists couldn't be proved beyond

reasonable doubt and that no action should be taken.

Tributes have been paid to the BBC journalist and presenter Komla

Dumor, who died suddenly after suffering a heart attack. He was 41.

The President of his native Ghana said that his country had lost one

of its finest ambassadors and described him as Ghana's gift to the

world. That's all from me for now. I'll be

back with the headlines just before 10.00am. Back to you, Andrew. Thank

you Naga. The newspaper headlines. The Sunday Telegraph has a survey of

Britain's areas where houses have shot up in price and cost more than

?1 million in Britain. In one part of London prices have ries reason

342% in a decade. Astonishing. And the Mikaeel story.

The Sunday Times says the Queen and Charles are to start a job share,

the grinning of the transition of one reign to the next. They are

going to merge press officers. In Britain if you run the press

operation you run the whole shebang. Scotland on Sunday not surprisingly

covering the Mikaeel story. You have to speak English or lose

benefits, says the Daily Mail. They are getting rid of multi- pamphlets.

Anne McElvoy and John Simpson, welcome to you both. Anne, you

first. This is about whistle-blowers, whether at the BBC

or the NHS. He makes a very good point, what happens at the end of

the saga, who is still around and who is still in post and who is

gone? It is often the whistle-blowers who've bitten the

dust. This is in the context of the front page of the Observer. Another

ghastly story. A ghastly story and really pain. . I went on record

early on and said if we are unlucky this could be the start of a slow

death for the BBC. This article is in fact a preview of the Dame Janet

Smith's investigation. It is being published next week. It gives the

impression, wrongly I think, that everybody in the BBC knew about it.

It didn't seem to apply to me, but knew about Saville and shut up about

it deliberately. I was working through that time. I remember what a

sleaze bag nasty piece of work Saville was but it didn't occur to

me that this was going on. The number of people abused by him on

BBC premises, astonishing. I don't know how they got any programmes out

at the time. Terrible. And of course the BBC should have revealed it in

Panorama and so on. It is collect EU knowledge. You can be in a place and

sense that you know a lot but coming forward and being brave enough to do

something about it is the a different matter. Absolutely. We are

going to get all the sleaze out of the way early I on. This there is a

story art the crystal meth Dis who has been tweeting away. He has, he

says he only got his Co-Op job running the bank because of friends

in high places. Who they, we want to know. Given that he was widely seen

to be a Labour placeman. Apart from the messy and tawdry story of Paul

Flowers, the serious point is when people in politics say they want to

do more, take over more of the banks, they want to get a grip on

the banks, the difficulty is how much better are they at making this

kind of point and taking control than the wheezily bankers

themselves? He is an extreme case. And he is promising to write an

extreme book. I think it is only a matter of time before his extreme

book will sling a lot of mud at the people who put him into the job,

although the fault is his. Lord Rennard is the other one all over

the papers, in the Mail on Sunday and everywhere else. This is about

natural justice in the end. He's been accused of terrible things, his

supporters say there is no evidence and yet his career is presumably

finished. This is a fascinating case. The dividing line between a

legal standard of proof and a political or perhaps even a moral

standard of proof. You had the QC who was asked to assess this for the

Lib Dems saying there was not a criminal bar that had been crossed,

in terms of that you could say he deserve prosecution, and yet there

were broadly credible claims by a lot of William that they were made

to feel distressed and uncomfortable. He is invoking his

legal right to stay in politics and we have another adviser here, a

sensible woman, bridge it Harris, very far from being naive or

impressionable saying come on, this needs to be dealt with. She doesn't

feel that Nick Clegg has dealt with this strongly enough. This is ahead

of their spring conference, so it has to be dealt with by then. I

don't think Lord Rennard will be the favoured guest on the cocktail

circuit there. I'm privileged to have two foreign observers. John,

you've chosen the ghastly episode in Kabul, two Britons killed in Kabul

over the weekend. I was, there I got back late last night. I know that

restaurant very well. My producer wanted to go there for dinner that

night, on the Friday night. We were working too late to be able to do

it. The real worry, apart from the awfulness of the thing itself, the

real worry is that this does herald some kind of new attempt by the

Taliban to get into Kabul. They've not been very good at it. And the

Afghan set-up is really quite good. The anti-terrorist set-up. But in an

attempt to make 2014 a dreadful year, so it will look as if the

British and the Americans are looking with their tail between

their legs, the idea of taking it out on people like this... The

nightmare is that Afghanistan goes into the same kind of downward

spiral as happened in Iraq. Well, to some extent I feel - perhaps I'm too

cynical - that's what the Americans certainly wanted. That people like

me... I haven't been to Baghdad for nearly a year now. Awful things have

happened but nobody seems to be interested. It has shifted from the

news headlines. Yes, and if Afghanistan is the same that's a

disaster. It is shocking how quickly once the troops are known to be

coming out we lose interest in the wars they've been engaged in As John

reflects, it is the case with Afghanistan, and Fallujah, the same

old names washing around again. I probably disagree a bit with John

saying that's what the Americans wants. I think there is a sense of

shame and disappoint. I don't just mean among people committed to

invading countries, but it has proved impossible to stabilise rarts

parts of these countries. We must see whether this is in a sense a

kind of daring one-off in Kabul or whether there was pressure from the

Taliban to take back Kabul. Sure, but what you can't do is go into

somebody's country, kick them around, change everything, cause

disaster and go away and say, "We don't want any any more to do where

this." But if you are David Cameron, you can't say, "My reaction is to

stay on for an unlimited period." We have a terrible crunch between

aspiration and what pain we are prepared to take. We'll be talking

to Putin later in the programme. There is one blast against Putin in

the Observer. She is going for naturally enough the one issue that

seems most of all, I don't think it is the only one, with that seems to

divide us most from Putin's Russia, this kind of ultraconservative

approach to gays and gay rights and so forth. You know, you went to see

him, and I'm looking forward to seeing this in a moment or two. She

says he would be absurd if he wasn't so dangerous. There is an element of

absurdity in the whole thing. The machoness, but he is terribly

popular in Russia. He is saying and doing a lot of these things because

it plays well with his core audience at home. I was based in Russia in

the years when Putin was rising to power, manipulating a lot of the

underlying fears and the despair about the Yeltsin years and the

rapid transition to the market economy, which didn't work out so

well to a lot of ordinary people. What he is expert at a throwing a

cat into the fight. This time it is gays. He keeps banging on about this

subject, which I don't think matters to him at all. It's a good way of

distracting from all the things he may say he has done for Russia, you

have a lot of impoverished people, a corrupt economic, and low economic

growth given the mighty potential of Russia. So he wants to talk about

gays and equate them with paedophiles. It is awful and rotten

but he knows it starts a different conversation from the one he doesn't

want to have. Is the Russians accuse them of year propaganda. You would

think you want to choose his friends and allies in a different way.

Benefits Street has been the story obsessing Britain and there is a lot

about it today. Who wants to kick off with this? I like a column in

the Sunday Mirror, Kevin O'Sullivan, a very good TV critic with that

needle eye which cuts through a lot that has been said. He makes the

point that we are treating it like social documentary, but who are we

kidding? This is intended to be entertaining television. It may

bring home some hard truths about Britain but he makes the point it is

carefully edited and designed to shock. It is a very good point when

everyone is getting worked up about these things. Talking about lounging

around at home, you have got the prime minister himself. I drive some

so mad with the TV remote control that she walks out of the room. This

happens in The Simpsons' house as well. He seems to like... Well he

says he likes to hop from one rubbish programme to another. Some

of us have made our in the same way! He has banned his children from

having mobile phones and video game devices. I have got a little

eight-year-old old and already he is starting to play with these things.

He will sit at the dinner table and be working on this. Is that the

right thing? I don't know. Vladimir Putin likes to present himself to

the Russians by strangling polar bears and skiing down mountain

faces, and in this country we like the prime Minister to be like us. We

take away the remote control, that's how hard we are. He does try to show

a bit more steel than he does on the television front, talking about the

First World War in this anniversary year because we have nothing to

worry about in politics in 2014 obviously, and he says it is good we

fought the worst world -- the First World War because we wouldn't want

the Russians running Europe. -- Prussians. We must now turn to the

weather. One of the big worries for the organisers of the Sochi Olypmics

is whether they'll have enough snow and the authorities have apparently

stored thousands of tonnes of it, just in case. Well it was snowing

hard up in the mountains while I was there. Not something we'll have to

contend with here, I suspect, but let's find out from Alex Deakin in

the weather studio. Snow continues to be in short supply across the UK

and the rain will be in shorter supply. There will be something much

drier and brighter on offer. There is still a lot of cloud being pumped

up from the south and affecting these Eastern counties of England

this morning. It is clearing away but it will linger across eastern

Scotland for most of the day. Some sunny spells poking through, and

overall a much brighter day than yesterday. Feeling right out there

with temperatures from six to nine Celsius. There will be a few more

showers in the west overnight but for most it is a dry and clear

night, and cold night. Temperatures in towns and cities getting close

to, if not touch, freezing. There could be some dense patches of fog

for the rush hour tomorrow morning which will take time to clear. Quite

a bit of cloud around tomorrow with some scattered showers but most

places dry and bright. If the fog sticks, not getting much above

freezing. No signs of any snow but at least the rain is easing. That is

not cold, that is dreary! In just under three weeks' time, the

Winter Olypmics will open in the Black Sea resort of Sochi. It's a

hugely important showcase for the new Russia - economically and

politically confident, under President Putin. But the Games are

controversial too because of the huge cost, and because of the way

the authorities have treated the President's opponents, including gay

people, environmental activists and feminist protestors. I got back last

night from the mountains above Sochi, where many of the Olympic

events will take place following a very rare interview with the

President. He talked to me and a few other journalists from Russia, China

and America. We covered many topics, including Russia's medal prospects.

But first, security. After recent terrorist attacks - are the Games

under threat? Extremists are always trying to draw attention to

themselves, especially before events. We know very well what

security measures have to be taken during meetings of heads of state

and the G20, the G eight. The same applies to sports events. It is a

shame. Extremists are narrow-minded people who do not realise that they

set themselves noble goals. The whole world sees them as criminals,

criminals of the worst kind. Bloodthirsty people who have no

regard for human rights and freedoms, or for human life itself.

I would like to thank all of our partners in the United States,

Europe and Asia for cooperating with law enforcement. Security is being

ensured by 40,000 police and security forces personnel. We will

protect our airspace, the seas and the mountains all around, but I hope

this can be done in a way that is not too obvious or oppressive to

those taking part in the Olympic Games. A Swiss member said up to $18

billion was embezzled, is he right and what can be done about it? Not

true. The Swiss representative didn't say that. Secondly, if anyone

has concrete information on instances of corruption in relation

to the Sochi Olympic project, we asked them to give objective data.

We will be glad and grateful. We will use this information to put

things right. What is corruption? In this case it means theft of public

funding with the help of state officials. If anyone has such

information, give these findings to us, please. Besides talk, nobody has

given us anything. We understand there are some forces which are

against everything, even the Olympic project. I don't know why. It is

what they do. Probably somebody offended them in their life. We

haven't seen any big instances of corruption in terms of the Sochi

games. There have been attempts by executives, contractors, to drive up

the price, but this goes on in every country in the world. Our task is to

bring the price down and achieve good quality and meet the deadlines

for the production. There is also a moral aspect to this, and no need to

be ashamed of it. After the collapse of the soviet union, after the dark

and bloody events, people were negative and assess -- pessimistic.

We have to pull ourselves together and realise that we can deliver

large-scale projects on time and to high standards. Many prominent

British people have expressed a great deal of unease, unhappiness

and fear about the Russian attitude to gay people. Meanwhile the Russian

Foreign Ministry has accused the European Union of queer propaganda.

I wonder if you are surprised about this row coming out before the

Olympics and whether you think there is a fundamental difference in

attitude in Russia and the west to gay people, and whether you think

gay people are born and not made, and therefore the question of gay

propaganda is not a ridiculous one. You know, I cannot answer the part

of your question about whether homosexuals are born or made. That

is beyond my professional interest, I'm just not qualified to respond. I

would like to draw your attention to the fact that in Russia, being gay

is not a crime. In 70 countries there is criminal liability for

homosexuality, and in seven of those countries they have the death

penalty for homosexuality. We have recently passed a law prohibiting

propaganda, and not of homosexuality only but of homosexuality and child

abuse, child sexual abuse. But this is nothing to do with prosecuting

individuals for their sexual orientation. There is a world of

difference between these two micro things so there is no danger for

individuals of this nontraditional sexual orientation, people can come

to the Games as visitors or participants. What about the Russian

church people who have called for the return of criminal law against

homosexual people. Do you support that? Are you horrified by that?

What is your attitude? In law, the church is separate from the state

and has the right to its own point of view. I would also like to point

out that almost all traditional world religions agree on this topic.

Is the position of the holy city different from that of the Russian

Orthodox Church? Does Islam treat individuals with nontraditional

sexual orientation differently? Actually it is even tougher. Read

our law carefully and pay attention to its name. It is called a ban on

the propaganda of paedophilia and homosexuality. A ban on the

propaganda of paedophilia and homosexuality. There are countries,

including in Europe, where they are debating the possibility of

legalising paedophilia. Publicly discussing this in Parliament. They

can do what they want but the people of Russia have their own cultural

thought, their own traditions. It seems to me that, sexual people

can't feel inferior here because there is no discrimination against

them. When they achieved great success, for example Elton John, he

is an extraordinary person, a distinguished musician, and millions

of our people sincerely love him, regardless of his sexual

orientation. President Obama has said he is offended by the gay

propaganda law, and he said recently if Russia doesn't have gay or

lesbian athletes, it probably makes their team is weaker. I wonder if

you can respond to that. If gay and lesbian athletes engage in some sort

of protest, will they be free from prosecution under the propaganda

law? TRANSLATION: Protest actions and

propaganda are two slightly different things. Similar but from a

legal point of view protesting against the law is not the same as

propaganda for homosexuality or child sexual abuse. Secondly, I

would like to ask our colleagues and friends before criticising us to

sort out their own problems first. In some states in the United States,

homosexuality is criminalised. So how can they criticise the far

gentler and liberal approach than they have back home. Mr President,

in the run-up to this feast of sport there was a lot of amnesties in

Russia, Greenpeace, Pussy Riot and so far. Your critics say this is the

Russian bear putting on a smile for Sochi and things will go back

afterwards. Is there liberalism that we'll see afterwards?

TRANSLATION: What would you like me to say? I would like you to say I'm

a warm, liberal President, I've changed my views and nobody need

fear me at all. TRANSLATION: It's true! That's the

answer? Marvellous. TRANSLATION: One more thing, we

adopted the amnesty law not in connection with the Olympics but in

honour of the 20th anniversary of the raugs constitution. -- Russian

constitution. Secondly, in accordance with our law, the

decision on the amnesty wasn't made by the President. It is the

prerogative of Parliament. It wasn't me who made the decision but

Parliament. But I certainly support this initiative and believe it is

correct. We should also strike a balance between those who committed

these crimes and their victims. We talk a lot about the situation of

people in prison or under investigation, and that is correct.

But we should never relegate to the sidelines people who were victims of

these crimes. You sound very confident, you've had a very

powerful last year. You've been voted the third most popular man in

the world, beating the Pope. You said in the past there is a

possibility of standing for election again. I wonder if that possibility

is maturing and hardening in your mind. You don't seem to be bored

with being President. TRANSLATION: I don't think one

should pay attention to such ratings. No person with get the

better of the Pope. As for ambitions, it is too early to talk

about this. It is 2014 and the elections aren't until 2018. We have

to get on with the work now and then we'll see. The worst thing for a

politician is to try and cling to power by every possible means, and

focus only on that. In that case, failure is inevitable because you

are always afraid of making the wrong step. You should focus on your

work and time will tell. You talked about promoting fitness. We've seen

you on horseback, we've seen you play judo, play ice hockey, and

fish. Can you tell us about your personal fitness regime these days?

TRANSLATION: Don't eat too much, practise sports. There are no magic

pills here. I do something every day. Yesterday I was skiing until 1.

30am. I go to the gym. I swim 1,000 metres every day. Nothing special,

but on a regular basis. You know what they say, little by little.

Achieves success. So that's what you have to do if you want to look like

President Putin with is his shirt off. After that round table

interview I had an extremely rare opportunity to speak to the

President one to one. Mr President, are very nice to see you again.

Thank you for that long discussion. We talked at great length about gay

rights but I don't understand completely your own view. If I was

our most prominent actor Sir Ian McKellen and he was standing here

and said, do you have a personal problem with gay people, are you

happy to work closely with gay people, do you feel gay people are

being discriminated against in Russia, what would you tell him?

TRANSLATION: If you want my personal attitude I would tell you that I

don't care about a person's orientation. And I myself know some

people who are gay. We are on friendly terms. I'm not prejudiced

in anyway. And if Sir Elton John or Sir Ian McKellen arrived, would you

be prepared to talk to them about this?

TRANSLATION: Yes of course, I would definitely talk to them. I've

honoured several members of the gay community in this country for their

personal achievements regardless of their sexual orientation. I'm from

Scotland and from the United Kingdom we are facing a referendum this year

where the Scots will vote as to whether to leave the UK. There is

movement around the world for historic old countries to leave

older countries, a secession assist mood if you like. What message do

you have for David Cameron? It is not a matter for rush, but for the

United Kingdom. TRANSLATION: Any people has the

right to self determination and now in Europe the process of national

sovereignty in the framework of the united Europe is more accepted. But

I believe one should not forget that being part of a single strong state

has some advantages and one shouldn't overlook this. But it is a

choice for each and every people, according to their own

circumstances. Perhaps you would invite the Scots to join your new

customs union. I wouldn't rule that out. Thank you very much, Mr

President. Thank you so much. President Putin there in Sochi. The

Labour Party has had a busy week announcing all sorts of new

initiatives on banking and so forth. Red Ed has been accused in the

newspapers of starting a new class war. He has certainly begun to fill

the hole on the gaps in Labour's policy on the economy. He is here to

join me now. Welcome. Great to be with you. I don't know if you've

been watching Benefits Street but it has got the whole country talking.

Is the there a problem of welfare dependency in this country, do you

think? I think there is an issue about a minority of people who could

work but aren't doing so, and that's why Labour has clear plans to say to

every young person who has been unemployed for more than a year that

they need to go back into work and we'll make sure they get a job. And

every older person unemployed for more than two years. But let me say

this also, I don't think we should demonise people on benefits. There

are lots of people looking for work, who are desperate for work, and find

that Britain is in the midst of a massive crisis of being able to find

work in some places. A big cost of living crisis that our country

faces. That's why we are talking about the big changes that we need

in our economy to put those things right. I think we need big change in

our country, Andrew. When I talk about the cost of living crisis it

is not just the squeeze on wages but about insecure work, the prospects

for people's kids. Whether you can get houses at affordable prices. So

there's big change that our country needs. I'm not going to settle for

the status quo. We need that big change and that's what our plans are

about. You want to break up a series of what you regard as cartels in

banking, in the housing market and elsewhere. Can you explain to your

critics how you can do this without causing a big hit to current values

of banks and big companies? I don't know how much you thought you

knocked off the share price of the big banks but it was a lot. Let me

set out the agenda, because it is important... How much money do you

think you knocked off there? I think share prices go up and down. What

really matters for our economy is getting the bank being system right

for the future. If we've learnt any lessons it is that a banking system

that doesn't work for the country has huge costs. Not just for the

immediate crisis but businesses not getting loans. I was in a

microbrewery. They are expanding but not thanks to their bank. They asked

for a loan and didn't get a loan from the bank and didn't feel they

could go elsewhere. That's tens of thousands of businesses across the

country who've that experience. We've got to change that. Unless we

generate those secure well-paying jobs for the future, we are not

going to earn and grow our way to a higher standard of living. But to

get there you want to put a capital limit on banks, yes? You said this

was like America. What I was going to put to you that the Governor of

the Bank of England, Mark Carney, a Canadian, said it didn't stop the

banking crisis in America and it might have made it worse. Let me

come on to his comments in a second. I want a test for market share, and

towards, and straight away what the Labour Government will do is say we

will create at least two new banks, sizeable and competitive banks, to

compete with the existing banks on the high street. Let me answer the

question why we need more banks... Are you sure there are enough people

to run these banks? We don't want although Paul Flowers. If we don't

have that spur of competition, if we don't have other banks feeling the

hot breath of competition, we are not going to get the service we need

for our business. Frankly Andrew, this hasn't just been a problem

since 2010 or 2008 but decades in our country. Half measures, the

status quo... So there is going to be a banking revolution? There is

going to be a big change in our banks, which is what we need. On

Mark canny's comments, he was asked about my speech before I made my

announcement. He made the point that simply a market share for banks on

its own isn't enough. He's right. We need greater portability of

accounts, business and individual customers able to move their

accounts more easily. That's really important for proper competition. So

he's right about that. It hat to be a whole set of changes to make our

banks work for our businesses rather than our businesses working for our

banks, which is what so many businesses in our country feel they

are doing at the moment. Are you looking towards Germany, which has a

tradition of local banks, a closer relationship with business? That's a

really important point. In Germany they have a regional banking system

and part of Labour's plans for a business investment banks are to

have a bank in each region, providing that service to install

businesses be, on top of the service that the commercial banks are

providing. It is all part of saying how do we power this economy

forward? The Conservatives seem complacent with the way the

economy's going at the moment. I'm not complacent. It is growing? We've

got growth to about where it was in 2010, having had three years with we

haven't had growth. But look, ordinary families are getting worse

off. People are worried about their own prospects, their kids's

prospects. It is not good enough for Britain this. The we've got to have

that big change to earn and grow our way to a higher standard of living.

What about your critics who say until you've resolved the question

of the deficit, which is why we've had these tough three years,

committee can't have a coherent economic strategy. If the Government

bring in a deficit reduction bill, Labour will vote for that? We'll

look at what the Government comes forward with. On the deficit... So

you might? The next Labour Government will get the deficit

down. We've made a commitment to I don't think any opposition has made

at this stage of a Parliament, which is to say in 2015-16 when we take

office, the we win the election, we won't be borrowing more for

day-to-day spending. The Government set out detailed spending plans on

eachary. That's a tough commitment. That's a bit like the commitment

Labour made at the end of the John Major Government. It will take cuts

and difficult decisions. It is a sign of our seriousness about

getting the deficit down. Will you aim to eliminate the deficit in the

next Parliament? We do want to see that happen, yes. Is that going to

be a commitment? We want to get the current account into balance by the

end of the next Parliament, and we want to see debt falling. They are

important thing that Ed Balls has said. It is part of Labour showing

that when we come to office... Sorry, and you will set a timetable

and targets to do that? We'll set out clear plans. Let me make this

point. It's a sign of our understanding that if we come to

office after 2015 there won't be lots of money to spend. Things will

be difficult. That's partly why the proposal I have on the economy,

competition policy, banking, that's so important. I wand to come on to

that. The task for the next Labour Government will be to earn and grow

our way to that higher standard of living, not engage in higher

spending. On the deficit, in terms of the proportion that you are going

to deal with, in terms of cuts and tax increases, have you determined

that yet? Conservatives are saying no tax increases or cuts. The

Liberal Democrats are in the middle. Are you all tax increases and no

cuts? We'll set out our plans at the election. You haven't decided yet.

It is impossible to do that with just a manse ontax or a wealth tax.

Neil Kinnock talking about bringing back the 250 pence rate as if was

settled policy. I didn't know that. As you would expect from an

opposition we will set out our plans in due course. All of our plans

fully costed, fully credible, Ed Balls has made the really important

step of saying he wants the office Office for Budget Responsibility to

croute these Labour's plans. No other opposition has made that vow.

We want an independent body to look another our plans to see they add

up. When will we get these numbers from you? By the time of the

election. Abolishing the bedroom tax, more childcare, all of them

foolly costed and credible. Are it is the approach from myself and Ed

Balls, a clear sense of what Labour will do, how we will do it and how

it adds up. But no sense of actual tax rates for at least another year?

That is what you would expect. Is Ed Balls safe in his job at the

moment? Yes, he will be the shadow chancellor going with me into the

election. Ed Balls has a clear sense of what the economy needs, he is

working with me in tackling the cost of living crisis and he has the

toughness to stand up to people who want more spending. So you like him.

Let's turn to the business of competition because you have these

plans to break up the banking system, breweries and ownership and

so forth, and you want to put the consumers more into the saddle for

this, is that right? I do, but one of the things that has emerged is

that frankly the public have been ahead of the politicians and the

regulators, and we have got to make sure we have a system in place to

shine a light on broken markets. The next Labour government will have an

annual competition audit, not just on by the regulatory body, but

alongside them will be Which and the Citizens Advice Bureau, working out

how we can benefit citizens and consumers. Labour going into the

next election, the party of competition, the party of the

consumer, the party of middle class and working class families who are

struggling, and we want somebody to deal with these issues. So you are

saying the competition authorities at the moment don't work, and you

are saying these other bodies which are not democratic or political

should be brought into the centre of it. It happened in energy. The

regulator didn't stand up properly to the energy companies. We do need

these bodies, that actually know exactly what is happening in these

organisations, to have a seat at the table. You were talking earlier

about President Roosevelt, he was a Republican president. I think lots

of people in Britain, lots of Conservatives will be thinking why

is the Conservative party not championing this agenda? It is

Labour that is the party of competition. You are turning this

into a party political broadcast. Let me get this clear, right across

the board, competition authorities of different kinds are not working.

Will you be bringing in statutory regulation to change that? We will

legislate so that alongside the work, at the table at the heart of

the work the competition authorities are doing, the citizens and -- the

Citizens Advice Bureau and others will be there. They will be in

charge? They will be working with these bodies on the agenda for the

future. Unless you bring the consumer into the heart of these

things, we will not shine a light on these broken markets that we have.

There is a regulatory body, it has a board, and there will be how many

places on that board... They will be working with the C a B -- the CAB

Which?, -- the CAB, Which?, and others. They will be at the heart of

defining the work programmes. They will be setting out a report each

year, a report that will go to Parliament defining the work that

will be done by the competition and markets authority with these bodies

saying which areas do we need to act on? I will give you one very

practical example. We will be debating in Parliament this week the

issue of pub landlords who find very little flexibility about how they

work. It hasn't been dealt with. It is an area of competition we should

be shining a light on. It still doesn't explain to me how this is

going to work, whether the CAB will be sitting on the board of directors

or not. They will be working with the competition and markets

authority to define a work programme for the year ahead. They will be

saying, which areas do we need to shine a light on? We will be

bringing in other bodies like the Federation of small businesses and

others from getting their thoughts. Will the trade unionists have

individual voting rights or not? You will have to be a bit patient about

the changes we are making. It seems that was the idea and it has been

kicked into the long grass. I want to change the relationship with

individual trade unionists in the Labour Party, I want them to be able

to make an active choice about whether they are affiliated to the

Labour Party. I am really asking you, is it going to happen? I am

determined they do happen, we have a special conference in March that I

want to agree the changes we make, and that will have implications for

the way the Labour Party works. And that will happen this year? That is

my expectation. Now over two Naga Munchetty for the news headlines.

Russia's president has refused to rule out the possibility of standing

for a fourth term of office. In an interview for this programme, Mr

Putin said it was wrong for politicians to cling to power. They

should focus on the job, he said, and then time would tell. As for

ambitions, it is too early to talk about this. It is 2014 now and the

elections are not until 2018. We have to get on with the work now and

then we will see. Ed Miliband has announced a future Labour government

would create an annual competition audit. He said he wants to give some

consumer groups a role in determining how markets should be

reformed. He said computers had been failed by the existing regulatory

bodies. The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock. We will get back to

Andrew in a moment but here is what is, not after this programme. We are

in at ten o'clock and we will be debating benefits Street, then we

will be debating gender selection, and then Satan, the evidence. Ed

Miliband is still with me and we've been joined again by Anne McElvoy

and John Simpson. We were talking about President Putin and the Sochi

Olympics earlier on. I just wondered, will you be going to the

Sochi Olympics? The Prime Minister has implied he will not be going to

go, I don't think I would be rushing to go either. I think our athletes

should go and participate. President Obama is sending part of his team,

people like Billie Jean King, it is important that we show all of the

teams show they are not cowed by what Putin has done. The athletes

might say, you should come and support us. You have always got to

strike a balance with these things. I am not in favour of a boycott by

the athletes. I wouldn't be rushing to attend the Games but I think it

is important that we show that we absolutely disapprove of the law

that has been passed, and we are assertive about equality. I am sure

that the Prime Minister is on the same page on this. John. I just

wonder whether that isn't a slight copout. Surely it is either Games

that should go ahead or Games that shouldn't go ahead. Can you step

back as a politician and say, I am not going but let them go ahead? You

have always got to strike a judgement. The Olympic movement is

an important movement, the chance for athletes to participate is an

important opportunity, but you have to strike a balance on these

things. I think there are ways in which the point can be made about

the importance that we attach to equality, whatever the law that has

been passed in Russia, and whatever the views of President Putin. If you

don't go, if you are a political leader and you don't go, you are at

once with the Russian leadership, you come up for budget. I think it

is the case that we don't agree with the law they have passed. Can I

return to another subject, the union one. You have a two-hour conference,

I'm wondering what the timetable is ahead of that. I'm not sure exactly

what the timetable of the conference is! We will be talking to people

right across our party when these discussions are going on, but nobody

should be in any doubt, we are going to change our politics. Not just

when it comes to the role of individual trade unionists, I want

to change MPs and second jobs. What about the block vote? This is a big

change we are embarked upon, and discussions are continuing about

this, but I can tell you there will be big change and I'm determined we

get them through. Will it include a leadership vote or not? We need to

look at those rules and it will be looked at as part of this review and

it always has been. That's all we've time for this

morning. Thanks to all my guests. Next week, I'll be talking to the

Foreign Secretary William Hague about Syria, Europe, and much more

besides. For now, as promised earlier, we leave you with some

great live music - this is a British spin on Americana. The Dunwells have

been described as rootsy songwriters who bring to mind the vocal

harmonies of Crosby, Stills Nash. From their new album, this is 'I

Could Be A King'. Goodbye! # Lay down your tools and play the

game # Of an ordinary fairy tale, at least in there you cannot fail # Get

back to basics and play the child's way # At least in there you cannot

get hurt # No rules and regulations there # It's a shame I know but I

have to go # I've had something planned for weeks and weeks # This

situation's changed, you see # Cos I could be a king # I could be

anything I want # I could be a poem # I could be some writing on the

wall # I could be a super hero staring down the barrel of a gun # I

could be a piece of artwork fading into the sun # Yes, I could be a

king, oh-o, oh-o # Oh, I could be a king # Yes, I could be a king # I

could be a super hero, staring the barrel of a gun # I could be a piece

of artwork, fading into the sun # Oh