26/01/2014 The Andrew Marr Show

It's a funny old week in politics. If you skimmed the news, you'd think

the only thing going on was sex - sex pest Liberals and wild

misbehaviour in the Elysee Palace. Oh yes, and the former UKIP man who

has blamed the recent floods on the spread of gay propaganda. That, at

least, is a completely ridiculous view of the Almighty. It wasn't him

complaining about gays - obviously it was her complaining about the

Liberal Democrats. And joining me today for our review

of the Sunday newspapers - the director of the human rights

pressure group, Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, and the editor of the

Sunday Times, Martin Ivens. But away from stories of sex pests, it's been

the most extraordinary week for real politics. Abroad, we've seen the

collapse into revolutionary anarchy of one of Europe's biggest

countries, the Ukraine, while the struggle for any kind of peace in

Syria remains deadlocked. For all of us who hoped that the Arab Spring

would produce a more democratic and safer Middle East, these are very

dark days indeed. The Foreign Secretary, William

Hague, joins us this morning, as we ask what influence in this

increasingly dangerous world Britain still has.

And then there's politics at home. For months - years actually - we've

been waiting for a really big economic speech from Labour

confronting the deficit. Explaining their way forward. This weekend, at

long last, Ed Balls has broken his silence. And the rich are once more

to face a 50p tax rate under Labour. It isn't enough to plug the gap, but

it's been plenty to infuriate big business. Bold and popular, but does

it make sense? Mr Balls is here to flesh out his thinking. If that

isn't enough drama, how about this? No play I can remember has had quite

the gooing adulation from critics that The Weir by a young Irish

writer has garnered this week. We hear from two of its stars this

morning too. So the big stories, the big names, the big hit. First though

to the news desk and Naga Munchetty. Good morning. Mass protests against

the Government in Ukraine have continued, despite an offer from the

President to share power with the opposition. Disturbances in the

capital, Kiev, went on into the early hours. Protesters tried to

storm a conference centre after finding out that there were riot

police inside. Our correspondent, Duncan Crawford, is in Kiev. , with

the President here offering significant concessions to try and

bring an end to this crisis. He offered one of the leading

opposition figures here the position of Prime Minister. He also offer to

Vitali Klitschko, the boxer-turned politician, the position of vice

Prime Minister. But when those two opposition figures stood on the

stage behind me and spoke to the protesters, they said they wanted

more successions and they want the demonstrations to continue. There

was a tense night once again. There was a stand-off between protesters

and police. Police who were trapped inside a Conference Centre, which is

inbetween Independence Square and the main front line on the road up

to Parliament. Protesters were trying to get inside. Using sticks

and batons to break the windows. The police were firing stun grenades and

using pipes on the crowds. There were negotiations and the police

were released. It is a lot calmer here this morning. Everyone waiting

to see the Government's response to the opposition saying they want to

see more concessions. Duncan, thank you.

Representatives from the Syrian Government and opposition groups are

due to meet for a second day of face-to-face talks at the UN in

Geneva. The two sides are not communicating directly, only through

a UN mediator. Today, discussions are expected to cover the issue of

releasing prisoners. From Geneva, Imogen Foulkes reports. A modest

beginning, says the UN, but a good one. Just a week ago it looked as if

these talks wouldn't happen at all. But timely, after many delays,

Syria's Government and opposition met in the same room. They spoke

only through the UN mediator. Their subject, not peace, but much-needed

relief for the besieged city of Homs. Civilians in Homs have been

bombarded for months. Aid has not been allowed in. It is just one of

many besieged cities in Syria, but the hope is if a temporary ceasefire

works here, it could be extended to other areas. After three years of

civil war, two short face to face meetings don't sound like much.

Nevertheless UN diplomats are hailing this as a success, at the

very least a confidence-building measure between the two sides, and

the talks here are expected to last another few days at least. The two

sides are expected to discuss releasing prisoners. On Monday the

key issue of a transitional Government, and President Assad's

future, and that is where the whole process could become very tricky. In

England, new laws are being put forward to ban the sale of

electronic cigarettes to people under 18. The Government wants to

make it an offence for adults to buy real cigarettes for children. The

changes are being made in a bid to reduce the number of young people

who take up smoking. More flooding could be on the way.

Forecasters warn of heavy rain in the south-west of England. Pumps are

currently being used to try to drain water from the Somerset levels,

where some communities have been flooded for weeks.

The French President, Francois Hollande, has officially ended his

relationship with his partner, Valerie Trierweiler. It comes after

weeks of speculation following allegations in a magazine that he

was having an affair with an actress. Ms Trierweiler was not

married to the President, but she had assumed the official role of

First Lady since his election nearly two years ago.

That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before

ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. Many thanks, Naga. The newspaper

front pages. The Times says Miliband's 50p tax stokes fury, and

Le, Split, on the Hollande story, and Tony Blair saying that the wars

of the current century are caused by religious extremism. I don't know

what we say about that. The Independent on Sunday has a

wonderful line in ebleak headlines. Beat the big six, make your own

energy. How we are supposed to become your own wind farm isn'ted,

you will have to buy it to find out. And IRA victims plan to sue Tony

Blair. The and again the First Lady is fired. A story about a Tory MP

dressing up as a Mazzie, which we'll talk about, in the Mail on Sunday.

Martin, all the papers have covered Kiev, you have not chosen your own

party to start with. I've picked the Independent on Sunday, Andrew, with

the headline keep braced for renewed crackdown. It presents Fleet Street

with a number of problems, Ukraine. To many of our readers it is a

far-off country about which they know little. But to William Hague

and the leaders in Europe it is on the fault line between East and

West. Bigger than France. And a terrible history of famine, of rape

by the great totalitarian powers of the 20th century, and wrestled

between East and West. The showdown goes on, in a way that is very

dangerous. And we'll talk about that with William Hague. One of the

issues that's come up is the number of far right group behind these

protests. It is not a suddenly Government versus the demonstrators?

There's always been an unpleasant nationalist fringe in the Ukraine

that's been anti-Semitic from of old. But if you go back to the

Orange Revolution, it is much more a wrestling match between those who

see the destiny of the country to the East and those to the West,

coupled with a terrible problem of corruption at the top. Its most

famous novelist in Death and the Penguin gives a great description.

He is a great writer. When I was in Russia, they said Ukraine is Russia,

it is where Russia starts it's the Orthodox Church, it is us. They

don't even say in the Ukraine, they say on the edge. Shami, speaking of

on the edge, another country on the edge, Syria. I can do this, I can go

to the Sunday Times, and of course the great modern tradition of great

women intrepid foreign correspondents in your paper

continues, the late, great Marie Colvin is succeeded by Christina

Lamb in Afghanistan, and this is about Syria, where the heart-break

and turmoil continues. I hope you are going to ask the Foreign

Secretary about refugees in Syria. We will get round to that, don't

worry. Our hearts go out to people when they are suffering over there.

When they turn up here they don't always get the same reception. Halab

writes a poignant piece about her experience in Syria and how a young

mother urged her to save her little girl. An interesting piece about

what it is to be a journalist and what the boundaries are when you are

watching and recording this horror, and to what extent should you, do

you, intervene have. I find that difficult as a human rights

campaigner rather than a journalist. I've read, I'm sure it has been

exaggerated somewhere, foreign correspondents have to go EasyJet

and take tents with them,s that true? We are not in the luxury class

any more. These are not the days of Evelyn Waugh's boots and you can

take your cricket chest. We have -- and a hamper from Harrods. I saw the

story too. We try to get value for money. You are frugal value for

money people. When I said the Sunday Times has been redesigned, what's

your message to the readers who are wondering why it has been redesigned

and what are you trying to achieve? Greater clarity, a modern look, a

new type face called Solido. We've changed the form atting to the

culture and the Sunday Times magazine. The next story, we've done

civil war in Syria, you are moving to civil war in the Labour Party. So

it says. It immunised that former Blairites are very cross at the way

Ed Balls... A it lo of anonymous quotes there. A former City

Minister, Lord Myners, has gone on the railroad attacking the raise, as

has a donor, Gulan Noon, who has given three quarters of a million to

the Labour Party. The "Curry King." And an electronics tycoon have all

said this is the end as far as they are concerned. There is a lot of

coverage of this 50p tax rate in the press, and not universally warmly

approved by the press this morning. No, it is getting very bad reviews.

Obviously economics isn't my thing, but I noticed in the Mail on Sunday

thing there's retcheses to Mr Blair. He's been busy on Iraq and telling

us about religion. Apparently he and his friends are particularly upset

about Mr Balls' new policy. I think it must be tough to be Ed Miliband,

with all these various coffins that need nailing down. The undead

rising. A question I would love to ask Ed this morning, do you think

Labour could win without any business support? I will write that

one down. Thank you very much indeed Martin. In terms of embracement from

the past, we must not ignore the Rennard story, which has bored us

all to death this week. The new twist, I think it is in your paper

again, Martin, you are not sparing any Lib Dem blushes today, and it is

friends of again. This political journalistic thing. They are never

the person who is named, but their friends. Apparently friends of Lord

Rennard are suggesting if he gets further investigated he knows where

the bodies are buried from previous scandals going for many years and it

is suggested he would be loth to spill the beens but he might do so

if provoked. That's pretty tawdry stuff isn't it Friends of Andrew

Marr would like to make it clear I don't think the story itself is

boring but it has gone nowhere. A pretty big headache if you are Nick

Clegg now in Davos. With Lib Dem friends like that, who needs

enemies. Indeed. Wandering hands in London and wandering Presidents in

Paris. Yes, the Hollande story is the gift that keeps on giving to us

all. It is a marvellous soap opera but it seems to be coming to a halt,

if not an end. You have picked the Mail on Sunday, Martin, and it is an

interesting piece that looks like a double spread on the lycee Palace,

but it is saying never mind the sex, it is... And it is like putting the

vegetables in a tomato pasta sauce for the punters. We move briskly on.

I thought Benefits Street was moving documentary. I don't want to talk

about that, I want to talk about refugees again. You talk about what

you want, it is that kind of programme. You are the host, thank

you, but also it's been suggested, Mark Townsend writes a piece in the

Observer that the Home Office, because of the furore about

immigration, it looks like 2015 might be all about immigration, a

very toxic debate. It has been suggested in the Observer by lawyers

and refugee charities about the good old Home Office and Borders agency

are going for the low hanging fruit when it comes to removals and it has

been suggested they are targeting in particular torture victims and

people with mental health problems. It seems to me to be completely

perverse, when you would imagine it is the most vulnerable who want to

be getting asylum. There is a story of a man who said he was tortured in

Pakistan, he was removed despite the interventions of the Red Cross and

others without even a psychiatric assessment. We have the Home Office

driving vans around parts of the country, telling people to go, and

now the suggestion that they are going for the most vulnerable. That

is not my idea of fair or firm immigration control. Martin, talking

about emigration, Richard Branson is trying to make it commercially

possible to go into space. Yes, he has this campaign to do the first

airline passenger service into space and he was even boasting last year

that he would be up by Christmas day wearing a Santa suit in typical

flamboyant style, but every deadline seems to come and pass, and

Richard... It looks like gravity, doing his Sandra Bullock thing, but

it is not going well. Yes, he has sank a lot of his own money. It is

very imaginative. He is one of our great cheerer uppers. He is. A later

story at the end, you have chosen Justin Bieber. Quite sad, I think.

Poor old Justin Bieber, his travails have been all over the news all

week. It takes Barbara Ellen in the Observer to say, just remember,

people like Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber, for all their fame and

success, they are just kids. Justin Bieber is only 19 years old and has

been through hell of a lot. You can say he has all of the money and

celebrity and so on but he is just a kid. Speaking as the match own

Sunday Times editor, he is only doing what every red-blooded man has

been doing since the days of James Dean, the great cliche of youth ever

since youth culture was invented. But with so much more scrutiny and

exposure. You are celebrating your own anniversary, is Liberty a

teenager? Nearly a teenager, thank you, that is coming up in a couple

of weeks. Thank you to you both for that. And so to the weather - and

whatever the cause, the great drip, the endless splash goes on. By now

the people of Somerset have probably evolved webbed feet, and I fear it's

not only them. Over to the weather studio, and Elizabeth Saary.

Yet more rain on the way for many of us. There are some weather warnings

in place, for rain and snow, some blizzard conditions on the

high-level routes of Scotland. Here is why, you can see this deep area

of low pressure that has been bringing this very active weather

front. For the Somerset Levels, still a warning in force, and this

snow to come across the Scottish mountains. Turning a little bit

brighter in western areas later this afternoon but feeling quite chilly.

That cold air continues to dig down as we go through this evening and

overnight, further wintry showers in the north, but even to some lower

levels further in the south. It will also be quite icy to start with on

Monday morning. Wintry showers again on Monday morning, and some gales to

the north and west. Frost and ice will be a frequent part of the

forecast. According to this morning's polls,

raising the top rate of tax to 50p is a very popular policy. Except, of

course, amongst those involved. Ed Balls' new policy will hit

investment and job creation. "Politicians should match their

pro-business rhetoric by reducing the top rate of tax further, not

engage in political posturing." That was the reaction from the Institute

of Economic Affairs, and Labour's former treasury minister Lord Myners

has also pitched in criticising yesterday's announcement. So why

this move, and how significant will it be in raising money to cut the

deficit? Good morning, Mr Balls. Last week I asked Ed Miliband about

50p rate and he said to wait for the next election, low and behold the

next week out it comes, is this a sign of panic? We needed to move to

a new phase of setting out the details of our deficit reduction

strategy for the next Parliament and the most important thing I said

yesterday was that we would balance the books, have the national debt

falling, and we would do something George Osborne has failed to do in

this Parliament, more quickly would be better, and get the deficit down

in a fairway. A far-away means that those the broadest shoulders are

their share of the burden. I don't think you can justify when people's

taxes have gone up, cutting income tax for the highest earners. I don't

think that is a fair approach to deficit reduction. The crucial

question is how much will it raise. You say something like ?100 million,

is that right? In a year? No, the Conservatives tried to claim that

but that was a political decision a couple of years ago. It is clear it

would give ?3 billion in a tax cut from 50-405A. The office of budget

responsibility says 100 million, around that. Let's be clear about

this, the Government ministers said, in their view, changing the

review of the Government response, it would be ?100 million. The OBR

said it wouldn't be wrong to say 100 million. A best guess. We now know

that in the three years when the 50p tax rate was in place, ?10 billion

more came in from people earning more than ?50,000. When the 50p rate

was in place there was 10 billion pounds more than we planned, so the

idea that the 50p rate deterred people, it didn't. We are saying it

would raise revenue, raise a substantial amount of revenue, but

there are different views whether it is ?100 million. It is a fair way to

get the deficit down and the phrase is that we are all in this together.

Lets get away from this dull argument about exactly how much it

would raise. I thought maybe six to 10% of what you needed to raise to

cut the deficit each year, so what I'm interested in is what about the

other 90%? Will it be spending tax cuts? I said yesterday that we

wanted to get the budget back into balance as soon as we can but that

would depend upon three things. First of all, the tough decisions we

would make, and there would be spending cuts in the next

government. Secondly, what happens in the economy, because the more we

have sustainable growth, the more we have tax revenues coming in. More

people will then invest for the long-term. Thirdly decisions we can

make to do things in a far-away. Well we get the deficit down, these

things can help in a fair away. And mansion tax. Yes, and we have said

we would like to ease the burden on families by having a mansion tax but

that needs to go alongside the 50p in the next Parliament while we get

the deficit down. Given that the top 10% pay 30% of income tax, how much

more can you squeeze out? That is because they are earning over

?150,000. In 2009, Alistair Darling said, while we get the deficit down

which had asked people on the highest incomes to make a

contribution. Our problem is that we hoped the deficit would be gone in

this Parliament, and it's not, it will be huge going into the next

Parliament. Coming back to where we started from, it has either got to

be brought down with substantial tax rises going much further than this

50p rate which doesn't raise enough, or spending cuts. Do you know the

percentage as between tax rises and spending cuts? If you take the point

we just made about this Parliament, why is it the case that George

Osborne has failed to get the deficit down? It wasn't that he

didn't cut spending, he tried to cut it on many things but because the

economy flat lined, the deficit has not come down. You are saying that

because the Conservatives have produced a growing economy, you will

have no problem? I hope this growth that is finally coming through is

balanced and divestment lead -- investment led. With housing demand

being pushed up by the Government while housing supply is weak, this

is not a straightforward way to a sustainable recovery and we had the

debate in the last few days that interest rates might go up because

of that unbalanced housing led recovery. That is quite risky

prospect. The governor of the Bank of England has slightly calmed that

worry. Let's go back to the 50p rate because that is your big

announcement. Is this a sign there will be more tax rises ahead? It is

political flag, this is the way I'm going, or not? We have said a

mansion tax to cut the 10p rate for families. We have said there will be

spending cuts, a rise in the pension age, we wouldn't go ahead with the

winter allowance for the richest pensioners, but what I cannot do is

say our tax policy and our tax decisions in budget three years

out. I am clear middle and lower income families are already hard

pressed and they want help. If you had to you would raise the top rate

back to the way it was during the Thatcher years, to 60p? No, we are

talking about going to 50p while we get the deficit down. As you have

spotted from today's papers, big business is saying this is an

anti-business move that will drive people away. You were part of the

old prawn cocktail circuit back in the day with Gordon Brown, willing

businesses for the Labour cause, you have now comprehensively lost

business as a supporter. Can you win an election without business behind

you? We are pro-business party. This is not an anti-business agenda. We

have got such a big deficit and such a problem with the cost of living

and such a need for reform in banking and energy, we need to have

an investment led recovery. The thing I have said to businesses many

times over the last few months, I support an open, dynamic, wealth

creating, entrepreneurial economy. I want people to create wealth, I want

to see profits up so we can invest, but at a time when living standards

are falling, you can't just take for granted the whole population

struggling. So you are raising taxes and whacking the big cartels. You

talked about banking. What about pharmaceuticals? Are we seeing more

intervention? The pharmaceuticals market is a hugely important market

but there is a strong relationship between Government and industry, in

terms of research funding and the pricing of drugs into the NHS. In

the end, the issue is, can Government make sure that it sets

the rules and does the investments and has the competition policy to

make the market work for the long term? It is a pro-market policy, a

pro-business policy, but it's not business as usual. Our problem is

that businesses as well as consumers have often felt that our banks and

energy companies have not worked properly for them. So what do you

say to people like Lord Myners who say this is back to old Labour, this

is the politics of envy and you are dividing voters. It is popular to

hit people at the top but it is the politics of envy, going back to the

past? It is not going back to the 1980s or '90s. I was part of a

Government which opened up markets, made independent the Bank of

England. But the reality is we are in different circumstances. And

because of George Osborne's failure those will last into the next

Parliament. Many business people have said to me over the last year

or so, we want to get the top rate of tax down. Of course they do. I

want lower tax rates. But to cut the top rate of tax when the deficit is

still high and when ordinary people are seeing their living standards

fall is foolish and it feeds resentment. I want to do the

opposite. I want to pro pro-business, pro-business, pro

market but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway. And

you are going to cut welfare? Do you know where you are going to cut? You

made a lot of the bedroom tax. The bedroom tax was grossly unfair and

the British people, who want to see welfare cuts. I'm asking for your

alternative to that grossly unfair tax as you call ate. A bank bonus

tax, canting young people back to work and start to get the bills of

young unemployed people down. Build the homes we need to get the housing

benefit bill down. We've said for 2015-16, this has gone further than

any opposition before, we will catch the Government's current spending

plans, including on welfare, any changes we make would have to be

self financed and audited by the office Office for Budget

Responsibility. Beyond 2015-16, George Osborne has said, But he's

given us all the figures, which you haven't. He said he will cut welfare

spending but not one penny of detail on how he would do that. You said

welfare spending is going down. It is not. He wants to make it go up

less fast. How? No plans. He says he is going to... All I was doing is

asking for your plans, Mr Balls. Look, we, three years before these

decisions, can't say, when George Osborne won't even give us the

detail, how we will do it differently to him. You've had said

several times that you are taking away the winter fuel allowance for

the pensioners. Are you going to take away their right to free

television licences and bus passes as well? With free bus passes, it

doesn't apply exactly. There is something about being older and

still needing your mobility and freedom and independence which is

different, and free bus travel is important and liberating and we

won't touch that. TV licences? For the over 75s you can make the same

argument for TV licences as for the winter allowance. You can, exactly.

The problem is when you look at how you would have to administer taking

TV licences away from the over 75s on the highest income tax, it is so

complex and there's so little money, we won't do that, because it is not

worth the candle. What about looking in the back mirror? Do you have any

sense or embarrassment about overspending? We had the biggest

deficit going into this recession under Labour. People say unless you

confront that and say yes, we did spend too much, people won't listen

to you and give credit for going ahead. The Conservative Party want

to fight the election about the past, because they are worried and

afraid they can't be the party which stands for change and fairness for

the future. I'm always happy to debate the past. OK. Let's do so.

Well, OK. If you want to. You could say yes, nobody said at the time it

was too much on the NHS, but with the benefit of hindsight if I had my

time again I wish we didn't spend so much across the board. Look, we

didn't spend every penny well, but I'm proud of what I did with the

NHS. You could have said you're sorry. I'm proud of the improvement

in the standards in schools, the extra police on the streets,

tackling antisocial behaviour. We went into the crisis in 2007 with a

lower national debt than we inherited, lower than France,

Germany and Japan. This argument that the spending crisis, So you

would spend that level again if you had the chance, yes or no. Pardon?

Would you do it all again? There would be some spending things we

would do and some we would do differently. But do you think the

level of spending going into the crisis was a problem for Britain?

No, I don't. Nor our national debt. What happened was the global global

financial crisis that pushed up the deficit. It wasn't caused by

spending in Britain. That's the truth. For now, Ed Balls, thank you.

One of the most haunting play is The Weir. It's been a global success,

and has just been revived in London's West End after a hit run at

the Donmar Theatre. Set in a rural Irish pub, it focuses on love, loss

and regret. There's humour too, but the overwhelming "spirit" of the

play is a supernatural one: Here be ghosts! That great film actor, Brian

Cox, heads a crack cast, including Ardal O'Hanlon -- best known as

Father Ted's lovable sidekick. On the set, both actors told me how the

arrival of a young woman into the "men-only" environment is a catalyst

that changes all the characters. She arrives, and she is the expectation

of the evening, and these are the boys that live here, Jim, Jack and

Brendan, who runs the bar, who owns the bar. It's the dance between the

five of them the whole night about who wins her affection, who wins her

allegiance. I was telling him earlier. I was telling him! I've

seen her since. Oh, yeah? Yeah. They were in Finbar's car, going up the

Head. Bloody hell! The Head? Like a courting couple or something! He's

showing her the area. The area?! He's a terrible thick. And through

the course of it, a series of ghost stories are told which start off as

generic and then they become more personal and more personal and more

personal until finally, even in the end, they become to do with your

present ghosts, not necessarily people who are dead but just the

ghost of your life. And the play in the end is about loss and why people

have lost important things in their lives. Yeah. Well, through her

arrival we see this community in action. It's a beautiful snapshot of

a community in a remote area. We get a real sense of loneliness. You

know, the spectre of death is there all the time in this play, and the

relationship with the supernatural, which I think a lot of people have

lost. But also it undermines or sort of destroys us as people, because

your character, not to give anything away, could have had a great love

affair in his life but he's basically too cowardly. Yeah. He's

too scared to leave his own area. Well, it's the notion of

fearfulness. You know, and also, one of the characters has a bad ghost

experience, and my character has a ghost experience, but one which is

very real, something that is very present. So there is that sort of

frailty. I mean, the play, I'm just completely biased, I think it's a

great, great play. How's the mammy today? Ach! Y'know. I have to get

down and see her, I keep saying it. Well, whenever. Whenever you want.

Think you'll do anything? About? About up there on your own, and all

that. Ach, so, where would I go? We're in a small, intimate public

house, hearing small pub stories, and yet the Donmar, again, a small

space, it must have felt very different to take it to the West

End, where we are in a great big, old Victorian theatre. How much has

that changed the play, do you think? Quite a bit. Well, I think

inevitably it becomes slightly bolder and brasher. Yeah. It becomes

even possibly funnier. I mean, I think the audience is slightly

different, and they to some tiny extent dictate the way the play

unfolds. Are you listening for laughs and murmuration in the

audience? Well, you take it in. But the great note we got from our

directors - "Keep in the pub. Keep in the pub." So that we always keep

it in the pub. I think we all have a strong connection to each other.

Absolutely. And also, Conor's input is, certainly from my character, was

to up the anger, up the rage, up the kind of dissatisfaction. Now, Ardal,

we're standing in this lovely set, beautiful set. It's a tiny little

Irish bar. But one of the things about this play, it could be

anywhere, couldn't it? It could be a Serbo-Croat bar, it could be a

Scottish bar, it could be a bar in the southern states of the USA.

Yeah. I mean, on the surface it looks very much like an Irish play,

and it feeds into notions of Irishness. But yeah, the themes are

universal, it's timeless. It's an Ireland that has never really

changed, you know? I hardly dare say this, but it's a Father Ted Ireland,

up to a point. Well, I don't know. I think there are echoes, perhaps. A

similar type of humour saturates all of McPherson's work, actually. But

yeah, some of the characters perhaps could have wandered out of a Father

Ted script, but no, it's a place that time has passed by. These guys

were round before Christianity. And, Brian, of course an awful lot of

people know you from the great film epics, The X-Men and the Bourne

films, and so on, and also from Braveheart. Right. Now, I do know

that you were a voice of the Labour Party for a long time. I was. I'm

still a member of the Labour Party. I'm proud to be a member of the

Labour Party. You blotted your copybook by saying that you could

support an independent Scotland. Very much so. I don't think these

are mutually incompatible. I mean, some people complain, nationalism

and independence. Independence is one thing, nationalism is something

else. I'm not a nationalist, but I am into independence. And are you in

favour of independence because you think that's the way to get a kind

of left-leaning social contract for Scotland? It's not just Scotland.

I'm very concerned about England. I'm an Anglophile. ? In Ireland

we've been independent since 1922 until 2010 when the Germans took

over. It was find while it lasted but you still have to get up in the

morning and dress yourself. No, the thing for me is and why I've come

round to it, because I was never that way inclined, because I've

always been a staunch Labour guy, is watching Scotland grow culturally

over the last 25 years. We've put the world to rights, thank you very

much indeed. Thank you Andrew. I think more of our interviews should

be done in bars. Last night the embattled President of the Ukraine

offered his critics the Prime Ministership and the de-Su Prime

Ministership, but that hasn't been enough to stave off the protests on

the streets. Al-Qaeda is on the rampage in Iraq and the Taliban say

they'll soon be back in Afghanistan and there's more killing on the

streets of Egypt. What happened to our hopes for the Arab world?

William Hague the Foreign Secretary joins me now. A very large agenda

there. Let's start with Ukraine. This appears to have been a big

offer by the President, but it's not enough. Are you concerned that the

opposition are being too hard lined in itself by not accepting the

offer? It is good that they are talking. We can't decide and judge

for them in detail what consensus they should create in the Ukraine,

but we can encourage them to do so. We are in touch with the Government.

I spoke with the Foreign Minister of Ukraine on Friday to urge restraint

in the face of violence, and that oppressive laws about freedom of

expression and civil society should be changed, should be repealed. We

will keep encouraging both sides to talk to each other and encourage the

Ukrainian Government in that direction. How worried that Ukraine

is on a tipping point and heading to a breakdown and serious violence

across the entire state? We are very worried about that, of course we are

very worried about the situation in Ukraine and I don't think it should

be seen as an east-west struggle. If the Ukraine entered into agreements

with the EU, that would benefit the people of Ukraine and Russia, that

entire region, so we have to change the narrative about this. It seems

there are not simply had byes and good guys because a lot of the

protesters are from the right faction, and Ukrainian nationalists

were very anti-EU and some of their views were very extreme as well so

it is not one of these things where we have a dog in the fight, as it

were. No, well we want to see a democratic Ukraine working well with

its neighbours. If anything is to be retrieved from this, it's important

that restrictive laws are now changed and a special session of

Ukrainian parliament will take place this week, and the talks between

government and opposition continued to some agreement. You were at the

Syrian talks, what's the best that can come out of this? When I was

asked how to judge success, I said that the talks still going on would

be a success. It is good that confidence building measures can be

adopted, to get humanitarian relief in some areas, but the real test of

these talks is will the regime really engage this coming week on

setting up a transitional government, and the opposition, to

their great credit, said they accepted transitional governing body

going into the opposition and the regime together. This is where the

solution can be found. But there is no possibility of Assad stepping

down? That is the biggest sticking point of all because nobody can

rationally imagine Syria ever being led again after this terrible

oppression and murder of so many people by the same person. Two and a

half million children are in desperate circumstances in Syria, is

there any progress on humanitarian corridors to get them some supper?

There isn't much progress. There are particular areas that are besieged,

and you can see the depravity and cruelty of this regime, that they

are denying access for medical supplies and food to their own

people in besieged cities in Syria so I hope that one of the

by-products of these talks might be progress on that, but we are doing

our utmost to help Save The Children doing work out where, and Britain is

one of the most generous countries helping Syria. Talking about

generosity, the door was left open to the possibility of Syrian

refugees coming to this country. Is that moral duty? The Home Secretary

is working on that and we'll have more to say in the coming days.

There is a case for helping people who are particularly vulnerable. Is

that code for Christians or any particular group? That is what the

Home Secretary is working on, how we help people who might need to get

away from that region, or who are particularly vulnerable to

violence. Because of their religious views for instance? It is still

being worked on, but we are looking at such a scheme. Whatever we can do

on that, our main effort to help people will remain what we do out

there. British aid is helping a third of a million people with food

every day, a third of a million a month with medical consultations,

and you can only do that out there in the region. Meanwhile the police

have expressed concern about British people who have gone out there to

fight, are you yourself concerned about the radicalisation of people

in Syria bringing violence back to Europe? Yes, this is why conflicts

like this affects our own national security. The longer it goes on, the

greater these dangers are. That's why a political solution is so

important, but it is a serious danger. People should know that

firstly they should not be to Syria under any circumstances, and the

Home Secretary has the power to remove the passport of someone we

think is going to do that. We are on the lookout for these people. I

described earlier on the rather bleak situation in Iraq and Egypt

and so forth. Has there been a period in my lifetime British

foreign policy has been as relatively impotent as it is at the

moment? We are on the edge of Europe, cutting back our Armed

Forces, do we still count? We do still count a lot, and you are right

to describe the problems that exist, but we are not an important country.

When you look at the work we are doing to stabilise Yemen, the

assistance with Libya, the recent agreement with Iran on the nuclear

programme, these are things which Britain is heavily involved in. It

is true of these are vast problems and we are going through a

particularly turbulent period in foreign affairs. We are the sixth

biggest economy in the world, and Britain still has clout in the

world. There was a promise of a referendum in 2017, that has now

been stopped and described as a dead parrot. You can see the true colours

of the Labour Party on this, they didn't say they were against it but

they have done everything they can to talk it out, to frustrate this

bill, that doesn't stop us is a Conservative opposition for the next

Parliament, if David Cameron is Prime Minister after the next

election there will be a referendum. You can see from the behaviour of

the Labour Party that if he isn't, there won't be. A lot of MPs were

desperate for this legislation to go through, they wanted to nail the

promised the wall of a referendum and now it is not there. We are all

very for this legislation to go through in the whole of the

Conservative party, we are united on holding a referendum before the end

of 2017, seeking a better deal for this country in Europe. This will

remain the Conservative policy, we will not be put off this high antics

in the House of Lords or in the Labour Party, and there will now be

that straight choice of a referendum with the Conservatives or no

referendum without the Conservatives. Were you concerned to

see the opinion polls on the 50p tax rate very popular. If we trade

opinion polls, I think economic confidence now in the Government

team is so much higher than in anything Ed Balls is saying. I think

what he is doing with the latest proposal is to send out the wrong

signal about Britain. I see as Foreign Secretary every day the rest

of the world seeing Britain with falling unemployment, with the real

return of economic confidence, the long-term economic plan of this

government working, and Ed Balls is sending the signal that if there is

a Labour government, we go back to high taxing, high borrowing, high

spending, and that is an anti-business, anti-job creation

agenda. You will have the chance to discuss this after the news, but now

it is time for the news with Naga Munchetty. The shadow chancellor has

defended his announcement that the Labour government would have a 50p

top rate of tax. Ed Balls said he would be determined to eliminate the

deficit in the next Parliament but he would do so in a fairway. I don't

feel you can justify cutting income tax for the highest earners, which

is what David Cameron and George Osborne have done. I don't think

that is a fair approach to deficit reduction. The Government is working

on plans to allow more refugees to come to the UK from Syria. William

Hague said the Home Secretary was working on the details.

Representatives from the Syrian government and opposition groups are

trying to seize power are meeting for a second day of face-to-face

talks in Geneva. That's all from me. The next news on BBC One is at one

o'clock. Back to Andrew in a moment. First, a brief look at what's coming

up immediately after this programme. We are in Salford at ten o'clock and

we will be debating one big question, it is war ever just? -- is

war ever just? . Wlliam Hague's still here, and Ed

Balls has returned. The 50p tax rate is essentially a political signal,

the direction of travel movement, would you agree with that? Labour is

saying we are all in this together to get the deficit down in a

fairway. It is about how we make sure we raise revenue in a fair

way. I understand Williams arguments but I don't think they wash with the

public. I think it is a political signal. Every forecast Ed Balls has

made has gone wrong. Which one? The forecast of rising unemployment. I

think you will find you said there will be rising unemployment under

the measures George Osborne has taken, now we have record

employment, so it might be time to acknowledge the policies of the

current government are reducing unemployment. I said that I feared

George Osborne's policies would choke off the recovery and they

did. I said I feared he would not get the deficit down in this

Parliament and you haven't. The second strongest recovery in the G7.

Will the deficit be balanced by the end of the parliament? It is not the

Greek level of deficit. You know what the Chancellor has forecast.

You opposed every reduction in welfare spending... Viewers, this is

what it would be like if Andrew Marr was not sitting here, not all the

time! Labour has been involved in stopping the referendum Bill go

through, a lot of people in the Labour Party said it would be a

clever move to offer the referendum yourselves in the next Parliament,

and therefore split the Conservatives. Two years ago William

and I went through the same voting lobby to vote against a referendum

in this Parliament because we thought the national interest meant

sorting out the form in Europe and our economy. William and David

Cameron have had to go to the other lobby because they are trying to

unite the Conservative party and they are doing so by destabilising

business investment and our economy for a referendum on a question

undefined, a treaty change on scene, a negotiation they have not

even started, it is totally irresponsible but that is what

William has to do to try to hold together the Conservative party.

That is one view. That is one view. It is about giving people a choice,

it is about democracy. This is a democratic country, people want a

choice, and the right thing to do is to do that after we have shown

whether we can improve the relationship with Europe, and the

Labour Party has said no democracy, no choice. HS2, scrap that and save

?40 billion, any temptation to do that? No, I think it is important to

have more rail capacity in this country. We are investing in rail

structure. We both know we need more capacity on the railways. If we are

going to have more capacity, it should be a state-of-the-art, modern

railway line. We need more capacity but the cost has spiralled out of

control. That is why we will continue to scrutinise it. We

supported HS2 but we need to make sure the costs are down and that

this is in the end the best way to spend the money, and I don't think

that is an argument that has yet been won. We have run out of time.

Thanks to all of my guests. We're back next week with a range of

guests, including the incomparable actor Ralph Fiennes and the fine

singer songwriter Lloyd Cole. Serious talk, and a bit of

commotion. Till then, a very good morning.