22/11/2015 The Andrew Marr Show

In the middle of a security crisis as the

Prime Minister prepares his war plan for Syria, can his Chancellor any

After suffering that dramtic defeat over tax credits, George Osborne

joins me this morning with fresh plans for British rearmament.

Plus, after a rough week for Labour, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell

makes the case for no austerity and no British attacks on Syria.

In other news, I have been asking movie legend Tom Hanks

if he might ever trade in Hollywood stardom for Washington politics.

Politics is show business for people who are unemployed!

I'm still getting jobs at what I'm doing right now.

And what happens when a great record producer swaps

And reviewing the papers, one of the most important pollsters in

American politics, Stan Greenberg, star economist Stephanie Flanders

and influential online commentator Paul Waugh of the Huffington Post.

But first the news with Roger Johnson.

The authorities in Belgium will decide today

whether Brussels should remain on its highest state of alert,

after warnings that a Paris-style attack could be imminent.

The city was a base for the attackers who killed 130

Last night, police and soldiers were patrolling the

There is one thing missing from Brussels at the moment, people.

These streets would normally have been packed with drinkers

Altogether, more than a thousand soldiers have

been drafted in, the numbers doubling as people are advised to

Brussels is trying to avoid a repeat of the Paris killings.

The government here says it has had information relating to

a possible future attack in which a number of individuals armed with

weapons and explosives would strike, maybe at several places at a time.

The threat level - serious and imminent.

There are reports that one of the suspects in the French attacks,

Parts of the transport network are suspended

These passengers arriving from London.

We just want to go to be safe at home...

Even the police is there, we feel unsafe.

The Belgian Prime Minister, security services and police will look again

at the highest state of alert when they meet this afternoon.

People here may be able to cope with a quiet weekend

but tomorrow this European capital has to wake up and work.

David Cameron will set out his strategy

for tackling the so called Islamic State group this week, including

proposals for military action in Syria.

He's due to respond to a report from a cross-party committee

of MPs, which said the UK should not launch airstrikes

without a coherent international strategy for defeating IS.

President Obama has said the US and its allies will not relent

Speaking at a summit of South East Asian nations

in Malaysia, he said the US would continue to lead a global movement

against the extremists and what he called their twisted ideology.

Police in New Zealand have named the four British people killed

when a helicopter crashed in the country's South Island yesterday.

Andrew Virco and his partner Katharine Walker from

Cambridge, and Nigel and Cynthia Charlton from Hampshire were amongst

the seven who died when the aircraft came down on the Fox Glacier.

The Chancellor, George Osborne, is expected to outline plans to

address big differences in school funding across England

when he reveals government spending plans on Wednesday.

At the moment, schools in some areas get significantly less

In some cases the difference can be up to ?2,000.

A new funding formula is expected to set a national rate that every

school will get for each student, with extra money

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

If you want some kind of measurement of how strange this week is, this is

the front page of the Sunday Telegraph with a tiny story which

simply says, the Autumn Statement is to contain the most dramatic cuts

ever. In another week that will be the headline but what are they?

Britain prepares for war. It is the Cameron plan. The Sunday Times has

the same. The observer puts the stories together cleverly. Security

chiefs want more armed officers and fewer cuts, unsurprisingly.

That sounds a bit like winning the First World War by Christmas. Thank

you to my paper reviewers, who is kicking off? The Sunday Times, the

splice is the big story, the Chancellor will be throwing around

back and figures but the only none of that matters for David Cameron is

the number of Labour MPs who will vote for military action in Syria.

The Sunday Times has a stirring quote from the Prime Minister that

he wants Britain to start behaving like Churchill and not Chamberlain.

And some detail, crucially, the government will respond to the

foreign affairs select committee report on Syria with a 5 point plan

including how we will have the legal basis for going to war and also some

of the detail on the military and that is pretty significant. Clearly

for the country. But it looks like the government is spraying out huge

amounts of money on defence including many more jets for the new

aircraft carriers and more armed police and so forth. That's

certainly the case. When it comes to the parliamentary arithmetic they

will go through this week, the Labour Party Boss role will be

crucial. -- the Labour Party's role. There is a quote from Tom Watson. It

is for the Shadow Cabinet to make a final collective decision on the

issue as well as our whipping arrangements. The Labour Party has

this problem about what to do on Syria. I think we need to explain

the situation. Originally we thought that, like John McDonnell, Jeremy

Corbyn would be in favour of Labour MPs leaving it to their own

consciences as to decide whether they are in favour of war in Syria

or not but now he has that that they're going to vote against the

government and you have to do the same. The significance is that it is

not really up to the leader to say that. What happened on Friday, the

UN Security Council resolution has changed the situation. People like

Hilary Benn and Tom Watson who work at height him, but they do want to

take action but Jeremy Corbyn has this enormous mandate from his party

members. I am sure to McDonnell will refer to it. Those members on that

kingdom they remember Iraq and all the convocation is -- not that keen.

Jeremy Corbyn could be overruled by his own Shadow Cabinet which would

be an embarrassing at Thursday the least. You are a man of the left,

give us an overview from your side of the pond. The Labour Party

clearly after this last leadership election is in a weaker position, we

have seen polls even in the papers today where the leader is not in a

stronger position. Labour has not addressed fundamental questions on

immigration and spending and a real economic offer the people can trust.

You come into these kind of decisions about the spending review

and Syria with a public not very confident. A friendly but uncertain

view. The spending review again is the big news. And as you mentioned,

we would normally be focusing just on this. But on this key point of

security and cuts for the Home Office, the issues come together and

it has put a lot of pressure on the Chancellor. As you mentioned, you

have the security chiefs issuing a stark private warning to the

government that Britain's counterterror forces need to be

significantly boosted, let alone the cuts that have been talked about.

George Osborne has made this problem for himself not just by having quite

ambitious targets for a budget surplus. But the fact that these

cuts, which might be manageable across the whole of government

spending, it has come down to 45 departments of which the Home Office

is one, which will take maybe 30 or 40% cuts. That McGrath for or five

departments -- four or five departments. Theresa May is a

formidable opponent. Even yesterday afternoon she was said to be still

refusing his demand for double digit cuts to the police. The reason the

police numbers have infected this debate is obviously because of Paris

and a lot of warnings that we are reducing our capability if we cut

front line. A lot of the narrative the Chancellor has had about the

economy and why the UK has done well recently involves things like our

position in research and development, the digital economy.

The Sunday Times suggests we will seek support for industry in those

areas slashed. It makes it harder for him to make that case. I am a

bit sick but I have read reams about how the books are balancing or not

-- a bit thick. It is an overview of how bad things are or not. By the

standards of the last few years, I don't think you are going to see a

massive hole reveal itself in the budget. I heard about ?815 billion

overshoot. It's not very long since the start of the year. -- a ?15

billion overshoot. We may have some slippage on borrowing. The bigger

problem is you had that big hole in his plans for welfare cuts blown by

the House of Lords and he has to find someone else to find those were

the cuts, tax credits for working people, that could cause some

trouble and it may mean he has two lower that surplus target for the

end of the Parliament. And you have picked a story on that subject...

That was one of the key things, highlighting in the Sunday Times,

this point, he has several billion he may have to find that he was

hoping to get in cutting tax credits. Some of those forecasting

changes, even at lower interest rates for longer than we thought,

some of those things could help him but this is a tough time and he is

narrowing the cuts to a small proportion of departments which

means the pain for them is very great. You have a story from the

Sunday Telegraph. I do. This says that Enoch Powell was right, which

brings us back. This was written by Enoch Powell's I prefer. He is

writing about multiculturalism and the dangers of it taking hold in

Britain and how that in fights everything we're watching. -- Enoch

Powell's biographer. It says you have the get serious about borders.

Is that hardline message ringing out across America at the same time? It

is in the Republican party and it is important in America. There is a

story about Donald Trump talking about registering Muslims. He

actually wants every Aslam in America to be registered, like the

Jews in Nazi Germany -- every Muslim. You should know it is not

America. In your new book you argue that America's liberal traditions,

as embodied in this case by Hillary Clinton, will be triumphant in the

next decade or two. I think we are at a tipping point right now, a huge

growth in diversity and acceptance of multiculturalism, belief that the

country is better off being diverse with an immigrant population, the

opposite of what the most companies saying. It is an acid moment for

these Western democracies. -- the opposite of what Donald Trump is

saying. A lot of European countries are saying their borders have to be

closed, if they can carry on with Schengen or is that dream over? For

the UK is investing in the lead up to the referendum. There is an

article on a former police chief saying that it would be harder to

tackle terrorism if we left the EU and for us, the importance of

collaboration with the rest of the EU comes through and make a fact

that referendum campaign in ways that we don't predict. In this fear

that open borders, particularly in the Schengen area, are helping

terrorists come in, whether true or not, is putting enormous pressure on

support for integration. I have heard so many different opinions

from people around Europe who are divided on how important Schengen is

and whether it is something that has to give in order to reassure people

that the EU can protect them. George Osborne has given an

interview to the Observer which is looking very kind of presidential or

something. Yes we have the Sunday Times and the Observer all over the

place this morning, he has done articles for other newspapers as

well. We have been talking about the stature of George Osborne rising,

talking more about national security. This week he will be

talking about national security which you would consider, for

someone who is a premised in waiting, that sounds great. But if

he is talking about cuts at the same time it makes a difficult week. He

in particular is under pressure because he was the great guru of the

election campaign and then the wheels came off with the House of

Lords vote. Very much so, George Osborne, his next aim over the next

five years is to present himself as prime ministerial. When it comes to

big issues, he is doing little bolding blocks -- building blocks.

The problem is we have a good old-fashioned Tory sleaze story. I

want to talk about that in a moment but there is a poll which shows that

George Osborne is quite unpopular. Yes, we don't have it but he has a

-18 rating in the favourability index. Jeremy Corbyn has gone down

to -28. In the calculus of the Tory leadership, Boris Johnson is plus

17, Theresa May is minus Thoirs. -- -4-mac. A lot of people would think

war and peace and the economy and cuts matter a lot but in a lot of

the newspapers it's the so-called Tatler Tory, an old-fashioned Tory

six scandal, it brings us back to the 90s and makes my eyes mist they

witnessed Alger. It is a classic story. -- makes my eyes mist day

with nostalgia. The mail on Sunday have more detail today about having

six on double tables. The impact from the taxpayer, the Sunday Times

have a separate line which is the man who was allegedly blackmailed

about having an affair with an mistress used taxpayers money to

claim expenses on his London trysts. Most of us would not clear

about that but the Sunday Times points out a great quote from the

independent parliamentary standards authority saying, we just pay for

the room, it is up to MPs what they do with it! I think that is

brilliant. Fantastic, I always like to leave the paper review on a

morally uplifting note! Thank you very much.

And now to the weather - it's been properly cold for many

Can we expect more frosty mornings over the coming week?

Peter Gibbs is in the weather studio.

Here is a clue, tomorrow morning looks pretty frosty for most of us,

it was exceptionally frosty this morning, the coldest morning we have

had for quite some time. Cold nights mean clear skies by day,

a lot of sunshine to come. A few showers across western Wales and

South West England but increasingly down the Eastern side we will see

showers leading of the North Sea. Still a pretty chilly breeze. It

will feel a bit less cold with the wind is being lighter. Here comes

the frost through this evening and overnight with clear skies and light

winds dropping away to -5, -6 in rural spots. Towns and cities close

to or just below freezing overnight. Temperatures will start

to rise later on across Scotland and Northern Ireland. As the wind picks

up the cloud feeds in followed by outbreaks of rain. Wet day ahead for

Scotland and Northern Ireland, England and Wales after a frosty

start getting bright and crisp weather. The rain will eventually

push in. Highs of around 6 degrees but it will turn milder through the

second half of the week. It is not that winter is coming,

winter has come! Sometimes it looks as if Jeremy

Corbyn doesn't have many friends But there's one man who stands

absolutely shoulder to shoulder with his leader, the Shadow Chancellor,

John McDonnell. This week's autumn statement sees

his first big set piece He believes he has

a water tight alternative to Before we talk about that we must

talk about Syria. The Labour Party has been asking for a proper

comprehensive plan involving all sides. We seem to have that from the

United Nations so is the Labour Party going to be backing strikes in

Syria by Britain? We will see what the plan is from the Prime Minister.

Let me explain my position, I think we have to come at this in a very

considered way on the basis of the experience we have had so far, this

is not like the Second World War where you fight against an enemy on

one terrain, you defeat them, they sign a peace treaty and that is it.

I think Isil are encouraging the UK and the United States to get

involved in a war again because it plays to the narrative of Crusader

invasion. If we did defeat Isil in some form they have another army and

we have seen it is located in most of our capital cities so we have to

be clever with how we address this. My view on that is that actually on

the ground Isil has to be defeated by the regional powers within the

middle east and by the people in the Middle East. The same way the Sunni

tribes defeated Al-Qaeda in Iraq. In the end so long as they have

territory they control and can plan their attacks on the west we have no

security they they have to be defeated in Syria. And that will

require troops on the ground and I listened carefully to the defensive

chair of the Defence Select Committee and his view was clear, if

there are going to be troops on the ground they have to come from the

region itself. Then we entered the narrative that it is a Crusader

invasion by the UK, the US or others. I think that's the most

long-term security we can get. David Cameron says that shows you people

are Chamberlain not Churchill. We have to get away from that rhetoric.

We have to be more sophisticated than that. We have to consider our

experience in the Middle East and we have to come to it as a whole House

of Commons, put aside party advantage. David Cameron will come

with his plan and there is confusion as how Labour MPs are expected to

react. Like you, your leader was in favour of a free vote but now wants

a whip to vote. We have not said that. We will come to a considered

view. My view has always been that I think Parliament should act as

Parliament, not on a party political basis and we should arrive at our

view in the best interests of the country. Is Tom Watson correct when

he says this is a decision which will be taken by the Shadow Cabinet?

That is part of our democratic process within the party, I am

hoping, I went to Iraq and Afghanistan, I have been in

Parliament 18 years when many wars and decisions have been taken, this

is the most serious then you can do because people can lose their lives.

I am hoping we can act as one, put aside party differences and look at

the long-term interests of the country. You have said in the past

clearly that you regard Tony Blair as a war criminal who should be sent

to the Hague for war crimes, is that still your view? I was angry about

Iraq and what happens and we will see what happens with the Chilcott

report. I believe we have do learn from the mistakes of Iraq which

means we need full legality on what we do. I was wondering perhaps this

is cheeky, if at the Cenotaph your leader should have given a citizens

arrest to Tony Blair? He could have collared him and arrested him and

sent him to the Hague. That is a cheeky question and this is a

serious matter so let me just say in this week we all bear responsibility

for the decisions we make and we all way the considerations Cearley. --

seriously. Let's move on to the economy, I will be less cheeky about

that. You are a socialist politician, you have a socialist

view on how a socialised economy should be structured and you made a

speech about it this week. But we live in a world dominated by

International capital, huge movements of capital, multinational

companies, and economically borderless world, so how is it

possible to run a socialist economy in a cuppa list world without

putting up barriers? -- in a capitalist world. You reduce reforms

which reach a tipping point and bring you the society you want to

reach. The situation we are in, let's be frank, the economic plans

of George Osborne are in virtual chaos. This was meant to be the year

the deficit was eradicated and we are in a situation where only half

of it has been eradicated. They get will be. Last month we borrowed more

than any month for the last six years. There has to be an

alternative to this. Let's look at the fence. -- at defence. If he cuts

police services in the way it is planned that undermines our

security. When you interview him... I am doing it for the viewers. On

behalf of the viewers put this to him. I say to him directly, end the

cuts. Tell him I will support him if he says straightforwardly that

policing cuts will not take place because we are in the most

heightened risk situation in a generation. You will not tease him

about it? I will not, there will be no political gameplaying because

this is too important. You said you had to take on and deal with the

monopolies which dominate the British economy. First of all who

are you talking about? And second what would you do about them? Let me

tell you the story about this, George Osborne, this is what annoys

me, it is austerity for the rest of us but not for the very rich and

corporations. He is cutting their taxes. What they are doing is taking

that money and they are not investing, they are paying out the

largest share dividends we have ever seen and they are hoarding money.

For the people watching, who is gay? The largest multinationals who

operate in this country, make their profits in this country. They are

making huge profits but not investing. I want to work in

relationship with them, we want to use that money to invest in skills,

infrastructure and new technology. So it is Apple and Starbuck's and

Amazon? Yes but let's look across the City of London. You said it was

an inept US organisation stretching around the globe which you have do

tackle but now you want to work with them to create a more organised

economy and I put it to you these are the same people you are having a

go at, by and large leopards don't change their spots. You will not be

able to use them to create the kind of economy you want? I am hoping

they have learned lessons from the last crisis because there was public

anger. You need an entire city of spotless leopards! We need to engage

them constructively but firmly. We need to tell them to start investing

in our economy again and we need better regulation. We have to stop

using the City of London for tax evasion and tax avoidance. George

Osborne himself said there is ?10 billion of illegal tax evasion

largely going through the City of London. I want to work with them but

they have to play by the rules. Thank you very much for coming in.

Tom Hanks is quite simply one of the biggest stars Hollywood has

In a career spanning four decades, his movies have made more than $4

His latest film reunites him with director Steven Spielberg

In Bridge of Spies, Hanks plays a mild-mannered attorney

picked to defend a Soviet spy in 1950's America.

It's based on the true story of a US surveillance plane shot

down over Russia and the action moves between New York and

I'm an insurance lawyer, I haven't done criminal work in years.

Have you represented many accused spies?

This will be a first for the both of us.

It's great to have you here, you look very like Tom Hanks...

But you've got the hair all wrong and the moustache is ridiculous.

Yes, someone asked me if I had stopped

I'm currently working and I'm playing a guy with very white hair

Sully Sullenberger, the pilot who landed the plane

in the Hudson a few years ago, called the Miracle on the Hudson.

So another kind of hero from an ordinary background kind of thing?

I would never cast myself as these people

So Bridge of Spies, back in the 1950s, it is a Spielberg

spectacular with Brooklyn 1956, it looks like Brooklyn in 1956, East

And this is another morally uplifting story.

Your character, Donovan, is basically the good American.

My name is Donovan, I'm Irish, both sides, mother and father.

I'm Irish, you're German, but what makes us both Americans?

We call it the constitution and we agree to the rules

It was one of those moments where, in history, the forces of East

and West duked it out and decided to walk away with just enough...

They got what they wanted and then they stopped.

And in fact everything that is in the film happened.

Donovan, who wrote prosaically about his career, has a very fabulous book

in which he explains the six days in which he was in Berlin.

Also, one of the extraordinary things about this

film to me, being roughly of that generation, just able to remember,

we had Protect and Survive, I think you had Duck and Cover.

All those public information films about what to do

I remember it very well and very specifically that it was

not a matter of if, it was a matter of when.

World War III was going to happen in our lifetime, it was part of the

popular culture, it was on Star Trek and in comic books and novels and

movies like Doctor Strangelove and the flash point was going to be at a

place like Berlin or Angola or in Vietnam or in the Koreas.

And we are living through a time where, once again,

thanks to Vladimir Putin, Russia is the enemy and doing all sorts

Was that just serendipity or did Spielberg...

We made the movie hoping against hope that our marketing team would

be able to come up with a good Crimea emergency that was going on.

I think we have the comfort of hindsight because it was a little

Russia is not the same sort of country that it was in 1951,

with the Communist bloc that was falling apart.

And I think actually the world is much more complicated

now and the sense of what surveillance is and spying

We did not get the feeling back then that either side was willing to cut

off the heads of the other people in order to prove their point

and we are dealing now with people who are willing to do that.

You play, again and again, as it were old-fashioned American

heroes who have strong constitutional bases and liberal

views, try to do the right thing and, to that extent, you're the kind

But of course your politics are a bit different because he was

And you're somewhat the other side, I think it's fair to say,

you have been a big backer of Hillary Clinton.

But you have given her money and all the rest of it.

I have contributed, yes, a few thousand dollars.

It's a dangerous world out there, is she the woman who's got what it

takes to lead America through this very perilous period?

I don't find anybody more impressive or more trustworthy than her.

If somebody comes along, I would be happy to listen to their arguments,

but for right now, anyway, there's no big contest that's going on.

Look, I root for Aston Villa, at the end of the day, I hope

Aston Villa makes it to the FA Cup and if they do, great, if not, I'll

Nonetheless, you are the single most successful movie star in the world.

Those are some pretty good movies I've been in and I'm just

Are you in anyway tempted by public office yourself?

I think that guys who are in show business who might go into that...

There is a story that politics is show business for ugly people.

I think politics is show business for people who are unemployed!

I'm still getting jobs at what I'm doing right now.

Your films are, overall, optimistic, upbeat kind of films.

There's always, not always, very often an uplift in the ending.

And they are also very often moral films.

The character makes big moral choices and does the right thing

There's a lot of very depressing stories out there

There is a wide panoply of stuff to choose from, but I only

have so much time in this world and I want to be invested in the

stories not only that I'm making but I'm going off and seeing as well.

And I want there to be some version of truth that I recognise

and I want there to be some version of an enlightenment that actually

And Bridge of Spies, not to bring it back to the movie I'm currently

hawking, that is the kind of stuff that ends up fascinating me and

whether it is uplifting or upbeat is not nearly as important to me as

whether or not it rings true or not and if it rings true, I think that's

the high country and you've done something that's pretty hard to do.

It's been a week dominated of course by those terrible events in Paris,

but next week - pray God - we'll be talking about the economy instead.

After the election George Osborne seemed to be the Tories untouchable

After tax credits defeat and poor borrowing figures, it

Can we start by talking about Syria? The Prime Minister will come to the

House of Commons will -- with what exactly? This week we will step up

our diplomatic efforts and human cleric efforts and make the case for

a greater military effort against Isil -- humanitarian efforts. The

finalist will seek support across Parliament for strikes against that

terrorist organisation in Syria. We have never been a country that

stands on the sidelines and relies on other to defend us. People have

said in the parts we need a com friends if plan that involves

diplomacy and politics and a credible war effort. That is what

the Prime Minister will set out in response to the House of Commons

foreign affairs select committee and tackling this organisation involves

efforts at home to deal with counter extremism and making sure in our

schools and public spaces, mosques and the like, people are not being

radicalised. It requires a step up in our counterterrorist activity to

keep the streets safe and it also means that diplomatic and

humanitarian efforts to resolve the Syrian civil war. But we can't wait

for that civil war to end before taking the fight to Isil in its base

which is in Syria and that involves the RAF taking part in my view, in

the international efforts that are going on degrade that organisation.

If this is a question of leadership, when will we see about in the House

of Commons? You will not get consensus. The truth is, in 2013,

the House of Commons voted against military action in Syria and I think

that was a terrible about myself which sent a bad message about Biton

and our willingness to confront our opponents around the world but that

happens -- about Britain. We will not go to the House of Commons and

glued again, that would be a publicity coup for Isil and send a

terrible message about our role in the world so we will only call a

vote when we are confident of winning it. I suspect it is changing

their views who had previously opposed us getting involved and

British air strikes in Syria but let's see. Those who are never going

to authorise or sanction or be part of any kind of reddish military

action abroad are unpersuaded will. -- British military action. It is up

to the Labour leadership to make their position clear. I would say

MPs of all parties want to hear from us how RAF strikes in Syria will be

part of a broader strategy to deal with this terrible terrorist

organisation and I think the UN vote in the last couple of days has shown

the world that there is a united determination to deal with this pure

evil. When will we get about De Vrij think? We will call it when we are

confident we have the numbers to win it. -- when will we get a vote do

you think. In the coming weeks, the Prime Minister will come to the

House of Commons and respond to the foreign affairs select committee

which is the group of MPs who have looked into the broader strategy on

Isil and he will make the case and we will as a government, we will

allow MPs to digest that response and see where we stand. We are

talking weeks rather than months? The first thing is to make the case.

Britain is not a country that allows others to do its work for it. This

organisation is killed British terrorist in Tunisia, it has planned

plots here in Britain than it has killed people in Paris, blown up a

Russian airliner and people in Beirut, this is a threat against us

all. We have heard in the papers today from government sources saying

this is a question of Chamberlain against Churchill. Is that a bit

much? I think there is a big question for Britain about whether

we want to be a country that tries to shape the world or is shaped by

it. For my generation, I came into politics at the beginning of the

last decade, the combination of the Iraq war and the big economic

recession meant Britain retreated within itself a bit. And the failure

in Libya, there have been another of Western failures in the Middle

East. It is easy to count the price of getting involved in Iraq,

Afghanistan,... The Taliban are coming back in Afghanistan... It is

easy... It is easy to point to the cost of getting involved including

the sacrifice of British lives. What is sometimes more difficult to spot

is the price of not getting involved. This country did not get

involved, as did other Western countries, in the Syrian conflict

earlier on and did not come in my view, do enough to put pressure on

the Assad regime although we make the case for doing so. Now we are

seeing that there is a price for not getting involved and I think we do

need to get more involved but we need the support of Parliament. With

that glorious luxury of hindsight, the last defence review is getting

to look like a mistake and a moment of embarrassment for many in Britain

when the French were able to send their aircraft carrier to the Syrian

coasts and we don't have anything like that at all. What are you doing

to build up our defences? Five years ago we had to rescue the defence

budget, it had a massive hole in it, all sorts of things have been

ordered which we could not pay for and we focused on the priorities

which were getting the new aircraft carriers built, new submarines that

could defend our seas, making sure that our air force at the equipment

they need. The carriers were originally old with a total aircraft

component of eight planes so what will happen? -- originally built. We

will step up the aircraft carrier punch of the UK, make sure that they

are available and they will have planes that can fly from them in

force and by 2023 we will be able to have 24 of these jets, some of the

most powerful in the world. And Britain second only to the US will

be able to project power abroad in to defend ourselves at home. One of

the other big issues is policing. Do the event in Paris change your view

about what to do about the level of British policing? I will come on

directly to that but I would say this, in the summer budget we took

the decision to increase our defence spending and protect our

counterterrorism spending which were decisions taken before the terrible

events in Paris and those events of course have thrown a spotlight on

the threat we face that it existed before that. When it comes to the

spending review, we will make the argument that protecting the British

people is our first duty as a government, the economic security is

a vital part of national security and precisely because we are making

difficult decisions in other parts of the budget, we can give our

military more kit, increase our counterterrorism budget by 30% and

also take action to stop guns coming into the country and deal with gun

men on the streets here. 30% more for counterterrorism but what about

actual police numbers? There was talk of a golden thread between the

counterterrorism operation and neighbourhood policing. 20% cuts in

front line and leasing would put us over the limit. Of course the police

do an important job on our behalf. Every public service has to make

sure they are spending the people's money well and there are

efficiencies that can be made by the police. We made savings in the

police budget in the last Parliament and the number of neighbourhood

police officers went up. Apparently the number of front line leasing

went down by 8500 and we are at a point where if you impose 20% cuts

you will lose a lot more front line policing and the former Home

Secretary John Ridge said we would be in a situation where there were

fewer police in the entire country than the French brought into Paris

alone in the wake of the terrorist attacks and that would be

unconscionable. Increasing the budget means money

goes to the police as well as defence services to deal with

terrorists, to make sure we can deal with marauding gun attacks, stop

guns coming into the country in the first place which is one of

Britain's great advantages at the moment. The reason horses are there

to deal with the terrorist threat. Of course it it is only present --

it's only present. Will there be cuts in Britain's front line leasing

as a result of the Autumn Statement? Every black service has to make sure

it is spending money well but we will make sure Britain is properly

defended against the terrorist threat. -- every public service. If

your budget is out of control, if you are borrowing money you don't

have then you cannot keep the country safe either on the streets

of Britain or indeed in the Middle East. I was just interested in

actual police numbers and it sounds like there are going to be cuts. We

will set out the Home Office budget like the other budgets on Wednesday.

What I have announced today is a big increase in the resources we put

into the counterterrorism. I mentioned the tax credit defeat at

the beginning of the programme, the amendment passed by the house of

lords says there must be a fool transitional arrangement for all the

families and individuals involved for three years. Do you regard that

as binding? You will see what I have to say about welfare spending on

Wednesday including tax credits. I have said of course I am prepared to

listen to those who say can we ease this transition but my central

judgments are these, we need to make savings in well fire. Largely

unnoticed in the last week the House of Commons had just passed a

multi-billion pound saving in the welfare budget. We also need to

increase wages which is why we are increasingly national living wage.

You would prefer to have sent the letters out before Christmas, you

would have preferred your original plan, that was the best way to do it

in your view? I set out the plans but they did not pass through the

House of Lords. When I look at the welfare reforms I have made over the

last five years, such as changes to who can claim child benefit and the

welfare cap, on both occasions the Parliament made changes to those

proposals by the end destination was the same. The amendment that was

passed in the house of Lords has legal stature as far as you are

concerned so you cannot ignore it? The House of Lords blocked the

passage of the necessary legislation but I said I would listen to the

concerns which have been raised. There are those who say we should

not be making any cuts to welfare at all, no savings, the budget should

go up and up. That is the position of John McDonnell. There are others

who say we agree we want to make savings in welfare and increase

wages but you have two help families in transition. They said it was too

fast and too harsh. I am willing to listen to those people, those are

legitimate concerns. I have always been someone who thought it is not a

weakness to listen to good arguments. I will not press you

further details on stuff you will not tell me, but in terms of the

parameters, the envelope in which you are working, the welfare cap is

presumably sacrosanct? If we were to breach the welfare cap which is a

new control we have put on government spending we would have

two come to the House of Commons and explain ourselves and have a vote.

And you are still going for the 20 billion of welfare cuts, the 12

million new talked about in the past? I will set out the details on

Wednesday but I am confident we can deliver what we promised to deliver

at the general election. It will be for a purpose, for economic security

which enables jobs to be created and living standards to rise. If you

stick by your cap and your 12 billion of Welker cuts and job lost

4 billion of cuts, then presumably you are left with a series of

unhappy possibilities involving disability benefit, housing benefit,

family credit and so forth? You will have to wait for the spending review

but I think people will see a plan which delivers a lower welfare,

higher wage economy. This country will have economic security going

forward. I have read all these reports in the newspapers that I am

at war with various members of the Cabinet but I can tell you the

spending review has been agreed, all departments have settled and

amicably. Nothing has had to be imposed. Iain Duncan Smith saw your

offer for universal credit? We have worked together to create

substantial savings. Last week parliament passed a multi-billion

pound saving to the welfare budget that we worked on, promoted at the

summer budget and have now seen become law. We have just seen

disappointing borrowing figures for October overall, you did not get the

tax money you're hoping for and government spending was not as tight

as you had hoped, what has gone wrong in simple terms? I remember

coming on this show five years ago and everyone said it was going to be

a disaster and unemployment would go up and we will weaken the economy.

We have had the strongest growth of any major economy in the world. A

record number of jobs being created. That's the context of the

spending review. But if you are telling me have we still got a

borrowing problem? I would say at a likely. Have we got a deficit which

is too high? I agree. That is what this spending review is about, to

bring economic security, national security, opportunities for our

citizens. Without a sound economy nothing else which you talk about

would be possible. Budgie might end up borrowing ten or ?15 billion more

of this year than you intended to do? The independent Office for

Budget Responsibility will publish their figures on Wednesday. I don't

do those any more, that was an important change we made five years

ago. Of course borrowing is a challenge, that is the context of

the spending review. But I think what we have demonstrated with the

support we give to the military and the National Health Service... As a

government you have missed that up, you have told the junior doctors,

any election you went for a 24-hour seven-day week NHS but you did not

properly fund it. The National Health Service budget is going up in

real terms, ?10 billion extra for the National Health Service. And of

course we have to make sure the money is well spent. I keep coming

back to that point, these public services exist for the people who

paid your taxes. Final question, the world has changed dramatically since

you set out your spending plans, with the attacks in Paris, things

have changed and economic problems abroad. Do you think your overall

plan for a surplus of 10 billion by the end of this parliament is still

sensible? You could save pain and improve the economy in the short

term if you drop the 10 billion surplus, why do you have to go into

surplus? The precise level of the surplus will be set out in the

forecast on Wednesday but I would make this observation. There is

nothing painful about a surplus. The pain comes if you borrow for ever.

If you don't fix the national finances. Then you don't have a

National Health Service you can fund, education. I just wonder if

you are pushing it a bit too hard? I would put it the other way, if after

a decade of economic growth Britain is still running a deficit... I am

talking about the service after the deficit. If you are not putting

money aside for a rainy day you are repeating all the mistakes which got

Britain into this mess and decade ago. There will always be economic

crisis at some point in the future. You have to make sure you are

prepared for it now. It might be a figure lower than ten, we will see.

The forecast will be there on Wednesday. Chancellor, thank you for

joining us. Now over to Roger

for the news headlines. President Obama has said the US

and its allies will not relent Speaking at a summit in Malaysia,

he said the US would lead a global movement

against the extremists and what he Here, the Chancellor George Osborne

has confirmed that the government will step up its efforts to make the

case for military action in Syria. He told this programme Britain had

never been a country which stood on But Mr Osborne added that there

would not be a vote in Parliament until ministers were sure

of winning it. Labour's John McDonnell said he

believed IS would only be defeated with the involvement of regional

powers in the Middle East. But he said his party would

consider the government's plans. I went through Iraq, Afghanistan,

I've been there in Parliament 18 years now and many

wars and decisions have been taken. This is the most serious thing you

can do because you are affecting people's lives

and people could lose their lives. I'm hoping that we can act

as one and put aside party differences and look at the

long-term interests of the country. First, a look at what's coming up

immediately after this programme. With some countries on critical

global alert should Britain during air strikes in Syria?

We have breaking news this morning that cinemas have banned

a religious ad for prayer ? are they right to do so?

The comedian, Omid Djalili, talks to Nikki Bedi, and we have a rousing

Andrew Neil will be here on BBC1 at 11am with the Sunday Politics.

His guests include one of my guests' predecessors, Lord

We'll be back next week when my guests will include former

Labour Shadow Cabinet member Chuka Ummuna and the actor Toby Jones

on the challenge of remaking the role of Mainwaring in Dad's Army.

Until then we leave you with Ethan Johns and The Black Eyed Dogs

From their new album, this is "I Don't Mind'.

# Rain comes down upon my spinning head

# Well I don't mind that I am getting wet

# It sure feels good to be home

# I don't mean to wake up and be gone

# It's just a place I go to write a song

# I hope you could until the end of time

# I know that it feels good to be home

# And you don't have to make it on your own

# And I don't mind that I am getting old

# You don't have to buy what you're being sold

# I know that it feels good to be home

The first illustration shows Hitler and Himmler