06/12/2015 The Andrew Marr Show

Amongst all the justified hubbub about the Syria vote, perhaps we

haven't been looking closely enough at another of David Cameron's

crises, the negotiations over Britain's future in Europe,

increasingly difficult, increasingly fraught.

Joining me this morning, the Cabinet's most prominent

Eurosceptic, Iain Duncan Smith, plus Tristram Hunt, a key Labour

moderate, on his new proposals for a major wealth tax that he says will

make Britain fairer. And we have not won, but two of our

greatest actors. Toby Jones on bankers and remaking Dad's Army. And

David Morris, starring in the West End's most unlikely hit, a comedy

about capital punishment. Plus, reviewing the newspapers, the former

adviser to both the primary to anti-chancellor, tech entrepreneur

Rohan Silva, the country's most prominent Labour supporting the

list, the Guardian's Polly Toynbee and with the RAF in action over

Syria, the Times' defence editor, David Haynes. First, the news with

Roger Johnson. There is severe flooding

across parts of Cumbria and southern Scotland this morning,

with waters continuing to rise, and dozens of severe flood warnings

still in place. Hundreds of homes

and businesses have been evacuated, roads are underwater,

and some towns have been cut off. In London, a 90-year-old man has

died after being blown The Metropolitan Police are treating

a knife attack at Leytonstone Underground station last

night as a terrorist incident. A suspect was tasered by the police

and arrested. One man is being treated for serious

injuries after he was stabbed. Eyewitnesses said the attacker

shouted "This is for Syria!" Visitors from outside the EU could

face charges for some NHS services in England, such as blood tests,

prescriptions and care in A The idea is part of a consultation

which begins next week. But both the British Medical

Association and the Royal College

of GPs have already expressed Here's our health correspondent,

Jane Dreaper. The Government wants

a tougher stance on the use of the NHS by foreign migrants

and visitors from outside Europe. These patients are already liable

for the cost of planned hospital care. Recently,

it emerged that ministers want to Now, a three-month consultation will

also seek people's views about charging for some primary

care, such as blood tests, Ministers think all these measures

together could save ?500 million A health surcharge

for overseas visitors has already The Government says GP and nurse

consultations would remain free, and asylum seekers and refugees

would be exempt from any charges. The Royal College of GPs says family

doctors can't be expected to act as immigration control,

and is concerned that charging for some services might deter

patients from seeking medical help. President Obama will make

a rare televised address from the Oval Office tonight, to warn

that the United States is facing on the shooting of 14 people at San

Bernardino in California, which is Overnight,

FBI agents have raided a house Reports say

the property belongs to a friend who's believed to have bought

assault rifles used in the murders. France goes to the polls in regional

elections today, just three weeks after Islamic State militants

attacked Paris, killing 130 people. Some opinion polls suggest

the far-right National Front will make gains, especially in the

economically depressed north-east, where the party's leader,

Marine Le Pen, is a candidate. A state of emergency is still

in place and ballots will be cast I'll be back with the headlines

just before ten o'clock. Now to the papers, and with me to

review the papers are Rohan Silva, It is interesting how quickly the

papers can remake their front pages. The Sunday Telegraph have

gone with the tube attack in London. There have also been a lot

of whether stories. And the Labour Party's war. Corbyn critics fear

revenge reshuffle. There is a suggestion that Hilary Benn might be

booted into another world. We will talk about that later. Sunday Times,

the RAF launching a round-the-clock blitz on Isis. And some good news on

a front page - it says greenhouse gases are falling. And in the

Scotland on Sunday, William Macca Valley, a great Scottish writer, has

died. I remember sharing a bottle of whiskey with him, as remembering it

would be a lie. We will start with the knife attack in Leytonstone.

Terrible news of a lone knifeman in east London, Leytonstone Station,

last night. What is terrifying here is the echoes with the Paris attack

recently. The cry of "this is for Syria" that the knifeman is said to

have yelled is the same cry that the gunman yelled in the Bataclan before

opening fire at that concert. Also some echoes with the Lee Rigby

murder, the last terrorist incident. All we know for now is

that it was an individual with a relatively ordinary night. A very

easy thing to do -- an ordinary knife. Hard for the security

services to get on top of that. Very scary, this kind of lone wolf

attack. In the aftermath last night, Scotland Yard said more terrorist

attacks are likely, which is obviously frightening. And this is

taking place after the RAF launching a round the clock blitz on Isis,

which is based on Mr Fallon giving a briefing to people in Cyprus. Yes,

he went out to RAF Akrotiri, the base from which we are spearheading

our air war against Islamic State. He gave an interview to the Sunday

Times in which he talks about the ramping up of our mission against

Isis to five missions a day, compared to only one day previously.

The language being used about this concerns me. It is really buys'

toys, gung ho. Like I commando comic rather than a newspaper sometimes,

with all those pictures and graphs of where the bombs are going to

fall. It is a shame. It is that simply stick thing that people can

understand -- that simply stick thing. You have heard Michael Fallon

using the language of a second Battle of Britain, which is nonsense

in terms of the number of aircraft we are using. Yes, it is an

important part of the mission, but it is only part of it. Remind us how

many aircraft we are using? We did have eight Tornado jets. Not all

eight of them are flying. At least a couple will be on maintenance. Since

the vote on Wednesday, we have flown out six typhoons jets, the newer

version. It is not like 1940. Polly, we would normally be talking about

this all the way through the paper review, but the Labour Party has

gathered lots of front-page stories of its own. You have the Observer

and the reshuffle story. Yes, Corbyn critics fear revenge reshuffle.

There is a lot of agitation going on, with people there in that there

will be retaliation against them. A lot of people voted for the Syria

action and are finding themselves abused and are blaming the Momentum

movement, which is plainly organising a lot of it, even if the

top people say otherwise. There is a danger of them right wolf in that

real attacks may come and they may start getting deselected, and they

are all being slightly wimpy about somebody being a bit rude to them.

You only have to look at what people write under our columns and feel

they are bigger little bit wimpish. Oh, dear, I am being abused. We are

all abused and threatened in social media. You were in the eye of the

storm during the rise of the SDP and the original Bennite movement. Is

this familiar to you? It is amazingly familiar. When you see the

Momentum people, people I thought they were dead have come out of

their graves, actual people from the old militants days. I don't know

where they have been all these years. But not in the Labour Party.

And the Momentum movement is a party within a party. They are organising

events inside Labour held constituencies without telling the

MP, even when the MP did and vote for action in Syria. This is about

MPs who don't have a likelihood of forming the next government soon. On

the other hand, there is a real fight inside the Tory party. Yeah,

there is an interview with Justin Greening -- Justine Greening, a

senior cabinet member who is very strongly opposed to Heathrow, as is

Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London. At the same time, 30 Tory MPs have

signed a letter calling for Heathrow. So there is tension in the

party. Zac Goldsmith, the Tory candidate for mayor, the government

is obviously keen that he wins. So what that will mean for the Heathrow

decision, we don't know. Give us your instinct on that? If you were

watching closely last week, a Parliamentary committee published a

report on the environmental impact of a new runway at Heathrow. That

gives the government permission potentially to delay this decision

until after May 2016, when the London mayoral election has taken

place. So there is a chance that it will be delayed. I can think of lots

of people watching in Scotland saying, you are talking about

Heathrow, you are not put the about the Forth Road Bridge. Let's go back

to Debra. Lots of interesting interviews in today's paper, not

least with Mr Assad of Syria. Yes, the Sunday Times' reporter has done

a number of interviews with Bashar al-Assad during their nearly

five-year civil war. It gives the other face to this and underlines

the competitions and the fact that it is so much more than a bombing

campaign. Mr Assad calls Britain's bombing actions illegal. The

interview did happen before the vote on Wednesday, but assume the vote

would go the way it did. Talk us through the highlights of this

interview. He claims that Europe rather than Syria has become the

incubated for the terrorism that is threatening the West. So we are

sending him the terrorists? We are creating the problem for ourselves.

He is also scathing about the 70,000 figure which was a key part of David

Cameron's argument when he put his case to Parliament for extending

Britain's air strikes in Syria. He said, where are the 70,000 moderates

he is talking about? There is no 70,000, there is no 7000. Obviously,

there are lots of countries involved in Syria, and he says Russia is the

only one helping. He talks about how he personally wrote to President

Putin to ask him to get involved, and he does not rule out the idea of

Russian troops being put on the ground, which would be a big

development. So we would have the RAF protecting Russian troops. That

would be new. Polly, I was talking about David Cameron's new problem

being over Europe. There is a piece and the Mail On Sunday. Very

interesting. It looks as if Cameron is telling people that he might go

for Brexit. If he doesn't get what he wants, particularly on the

question of benefits, he could lead the campaign to take us out. The

Tory party is as crazy as the Labour Party at the moment. The

Eurosceptics running the anti-European campaign say, we don't

want Cameron on our side. They are bonkers. They say they want Boris,

but if they get Cameron on their side, the danger for those of us who

are extremely worried about staying in Europe is that Cameron could

swing it. It is a really frightening moment. Rohan Silva, what is your

instinct about Cameron? Could he do this? The Prime Minister will be

delivering a big speech tomorrow about delivering on an investor

commitments. The reason they are giving that speech is that their

internal polling suggests that the public is concerned that the

government doesn't have an effective opposition and therefore are not

being scrutinised enough. There is opposition, it is just inside the

Tory party. You know this man well. Could you see him leading a campaign

to take us out of Europe? And effectively go shish and strategy in

business or in government is one in which you say you are willing to

walk away. We are seeing negotiation happening. No one could have

predicted during the beginning of this call for renegotiation that

there would also be a migrant crisis, a terror crisis. The Euro

crisis was already in play. Britain is at the bottom of that list of

crises. I am surprised they don't throw us out, because we are

behaving so badly at a time of real crisis for Europe. This is beginning

to change the mood. There are suggestions that Obama, once he

steps down, might campaign on the issue of the arming America --

disarming America. But will it make people realise how dangerous it is

to have these lax rules about arms, or will it make people want to be

more armed? We don't talk enough about business stories on this paper

review. S now has a story about Tata Steel. And Polly, you have a story

about Cadbury. Yes. People were upset when Cadbury was taken over by

Kraft Foods in 2010. The government, Labour at the time, said

there was nothing they could do about it. Kraft Foods promised they

would fire people. They fired huge amounts of people and closed a lot

of facilities. Now it turns out they are not paying tax on ?2 billion

worth of earnings they are making here. They have an elaborate deal

with the Channel Islands, another of these tax swivels, and they are

paying virtually no tax. This is a shocker. We could stop it

immediately. By thinking about which chocolate bars we buy. Don't buy

Cadbury 's. Finally? Hopefully, some good news for Christmas.

Scunthorpe's steelworks, owned by Tata Steel, there was talk of it

closing. Apparently, three bidders have emerged for that. A lot will

depend on what they decide to do with it, but the hope is that the

steelworks will continue to stay open. Thanks to all of you.

It has been a wet and windy weekend. Will it continue? When we'll stormed

Desmond blow over? Over to Philip Avery.

Without further ado, let me show you the centre of Storm Desmond, which

never was that close. My finger is touching Iceland, the centre moving

to Scandinavia. It is the trailing portion of the weather front that

has brought the wet and windy weather to so many parts of the

British Isles. The bit we are interested in is now clear of

Cumbria. It is slumping towards the Midlands. Drier conditions following

behind. Gusty showers, with snow across Scotland. Mild air trapped in

the south. What will not change rapidly is the severe flood warning

count. Just when you thought you had seen the last of that weather front,

the western portion returned. But two things. It is on the move, and

nowhere near the intensity of rainfall. Five to ten millimetres

widely, rather than 200 or 300. And it will gradually move through the

north of England, up through southern Scotland on its way to the

north of Scotland. Following behind for Monday, a lot more dry weather

is the encouraging acid. And mild as well. A word to the wise. Over the

front is gradually sweeping back through the flood affected areas.

But again, at its worst, it will only produce 30 to 40 millimetres

across the high ground of northern England.

David Morrissey is a pretty constant presence on stage

and television, from Shakespearean roles to Gordon Brown.

He's been on the frontline of the refugee crisis with the UN.

His latest play is about the last British hangmen

I'd have been happy to hang some Germans, I would have been chuffed.

I never liked them before the war, never mind during, the accent alone.

I were asked, first time around, around Nuremberg,

but I was still a part-time bookie then and it coincided with Grand

I probably should have gone, I fobbed them off,

She probably was, she always is, but they never called me back

Well, there was something going on in Grand National week that we do

not hear about in that particular clip as well. When I see it is

darkly comic, it is very dark and very comic, a strange subject for

what is essentially a social comedy. Your character is based on two

different hangmen, the web brothers. Harry Allen and a guy called Stephen

weighed. Excuse me. He combines those two characters. We all have

rivalries in life. He has this absolutely agonising rivalry with

Albert Pierrepoint two is the most famous hangman. They cannot really

stand it. Yes, he hates Pierrepoint. Everyone knows Pierrepoint, so when

he says he is a hangman, everybody brings up your point. -- Albert

Pierrepoint. The play takes place on the day that hanging is abolished,

so it is the day that Harry loses his status. He runs his own pub.

People come in and out and so on. It is very funny, but lots of critics

have said it is incredibly politically incorrect. It is set in

1965. It is off its time. Scottish people, women, they all get it in

the neck. Yes, but it is off its time. Martin's rating is

provocative. It is about presenting those people the way they should be.

It is shocking but funny. Giving the subject, a great deal of laughter,

even at the beginning when someone is hanged on stage, people are

roaring with laughter. It is unsettling. It is a shocking thing

to see. It is state murder. People laugh out of the shock of it. I do

not think people laugh in ridicule way. I think they find it unnerving.

You have done lots of work with the United Nations. You went to southern

Europe to help with the refugee crisis yourself. You got your hands,

if not dirty, at least wet. I went to Lesbos and I saw the crisis

first-hand. As we know, tens of thousands of people are arriving in

Europe every week, practically. We see the pictures. It is really hard

to talk about this without being very upset about it. This is a real

humanitarian crisis happening on our doorstep. I do feel that Europe

needs to come together in some way to be able to help these people who

are running away from the very people we see who are in Paris and

Beirut. Murderous people that we see first hand. These people are trying

to escape those people. In the maelstrom that is going on, it is

important for us to try to keep hold of our own humanity for our fellow

man. I know you have been a long-time supporter of the Labour

Party. What are your reflections after the vote about Jeremy

Corbyn's position, as leader, Andy Reid action to the vote. My worry is

the repercussions for people who voted for the air strikes. It seems

very split, lots of bullying within the party. There needs to be a

united front within the party. It is in a terrible state. The Labour

Party. It is hard to see how it gets out of this. David Morrissey, thank

you for speaking to us. Tristram Hunt was one of several

high profile figures in the Labour party, who left the front bench

when Jeremy Corbyn became leader. "It is important to be honest about

it. I have substantial political

differences with Jeremy." We've not heard a great deal

from him since. But's he's giving a big speech

on tackling inequality tomorrow Good morning. You talk in this

speech about moral outrage, about inequality and poverty in this

country. IAG suggesting that in the past labour governments have not had

of that. There has always been moral outrage about inequality. That is

the purpose of the Labour Party who came into being to promote social

mobility. The message of my speech tomorrow is that the nature of

inequality is changing and as the nature changes, we need new tools

and policies to deal with that. What do you mean that the nature of

inequality is changing? We cannot focus on income inequality any more.

We also have to think about family, community, culture, the

opportunities that young people have to fulfil their potential above and

beyond material poverty. It is about ladders, the accumulation of

capital. People have lots of money tied up in the houses and you're

proposing a new wealth tax? I want to see a tax system which reflects

the great concentrations of wealth we are seeing in assets,

particularly in property. I would get rid of the council tax system

and have a new property tax based on the value of the property. I am not

interested in taxing for the sake of tax. It is what you do with it, and

I want to tackle inequality at root, to focus on quality, universal

childcare, technical and vocational education, the mental health of

mothers, to do all those things that we noble tackle and disadvantage. At

the moment, by the age of seven, 80% of the attainment rate for GCSEs is

already set in stone. We have to challenge that, that is what the

Labour Party is about. David said quite rightly that the Labour Party

needs to get together, show some unity, and tackle inequality. This

attack on inequality is very centralised. You're taking away from

local authorities one of their last real powers, to lead the council

tax, and making it a centralised tax. That is one problem. I am a

great supporter of evolution and having more a tonne in May over

business rates for councils. We have to make sure that councils, as they

do in America, most OECD countries have this system of taxation, and

they have a very devolved model of city and regional governance. People

will say, here we go again, back to the mansion tax which did not do

well for the Labour Party at the last election. This is a class envy

tax. It is fine to have moral outrage and be the anti-austerity

party, but you have to win over lots of people who are not pure, but who

feel it is their duty to pay something back. That is the other

message of my speech. When we talk about inequality, it cannot be

hammering the top 1%. We need to think about how inequality affects

the totality of society. People did not like the mansion tax because it

seemed very arbitrary and unfair. This ?2 million hit, what is and is

not an mansion. We need to have a progressive property tax. At the

moment council tax. At the moment council taxes very regressive for

those in the poorest areas, and it is generous for those in property is

worth ?5 million. It is not just tax for the sake of it, it is what you

do with the money. Over the course of the 20th century, taxation began

focusing on wealth and assets. We have focused more and more on income

tax and national insurance. We need to go back to wealth and assets.

That is more progressive. That is where I disagree with the front

bench because I am not interested in picking the top rate of income tax

up to 50p. I am interested in tackling inequality. To what extent

is this also a tactical move? We keep being told in the papers there

are two Michael Labour Party is, Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party with

the leadership and a mass movement behind him, and the moderate right

wing Labour Party, by and large the MPs. This feels like an olive branch

from your side of the party towards the other side? All parties are

broad churches in one way or another. In the Labour Party, we

need to have intellectual and political renewal. We have lost two

general elections. We have not made a radical, exciting case for why

people want to vote labour and why it will make Britain be a better

place to live and grow up. You are saying, I am Tristram Hunt, I am not

a right-winger, this is what I believe? This is radical politics,

what the Labour Party is about. As David said, the Labour Party has

been looking to internally recently. Who is in, who is out? We were

founded to tackle inequality. We need to get back to that. As the

nature of inequality changes, we need different responses. You voted

with the government on Syria. What kind of personal response did you

get? I have had a mixed response from constituents and party members.

Some were supportive and others would impose -- opposed. In my local

party, the majority were opposed to that decision. On Friday, we will

have a discussion about that. Have you had a lot of personal abuse,

your family threatened, anything like that? No. There have been some

pretty ugly comments on Facebook but we can take those as politicians.

Polly is right, we need to have an active debate, but when you do get

members of Parliament having to call in police protection to their

family, we have crossed a line. Some of the ugly comments around the Stop

The War Coalition, they have been very responsible with their language

and activities, picketing Labour Party headquarters while we were

trying to fight for the baulk by election -- Oldham by-election. The

leader said there will be no hiding place for a people like you who

voted with the government. We should all be open and accountable about

which way we vote. That is about modern politics. One of the

advantages of digital democracy is that people can get in touch with

you to express their views. One of the downsides is that people lose

some of their arrest of their arrest evasions. What is your message to

the party generally about the tone of this debate?

We have to have a much more respectful tone about differences

within the party. Every time Jeremy says we need a gentler, kinder kind

of politics, we have outrage from some parts the party. Let me ask you

about one of the story which has been in the papers, which is the

possibility of a reshuffle on the back of a very good by-election

result for Jeremy Corbyn. It is now being suggested that he might use

this opportunity to remove some of his critics, notably Hilary Benn

from firstly, let's pay tribute to Jim

McMahon. He is just the kind of mainstream MP

we want in Westminster. You want lots of people from

different parts of the party. I would go back to my message, which

is that rather than who is up or down, let's focus on what is

important, challenging inequality. That is what the Labour Party is

about. What frustrates people are the divisions. You will join us at

the end of the programme, but for now, thank you very much.

Toby Jones is one of the most in-demand actors around.

His next two leading roles, one on the big screen, one on the small,

see him playing very different members of the banking profession.

In the Dad's Army movie next year, he'll be starring alongside

Bill Nighy and Michael Gambon, reinterpreting that iconic

Currently, he's starring in BBC One's major new drama Capital,

based on John Lanchester's acclaimed book.

In the series, Jones plays an investment banker

facing marital strife and financial meltdown.

I think evil bankers have been done to death.

I'm not sure they need dramatising much more.

I think they are already a kind of stock type.

I think the banker that is in John's book is a banker who is slightly

He belongs to, or can relate to an earlier culture of bankers,

when there was at least a residual honour.

But that has all gone, and the banks are being run by mathematicians.

You would be surprised how little ?1 million actually covers these days.

Conrad's school fees, the nannies, your car, my car, the family car,

Weekend house, the extension on the weekend house,

Slate tiles, kitchen, the extension, the basement,

Name one of those things that isn't absolutely essential?

So he's effectively the boss of people he doesn't really

understand and is under threat from them as a result.

That makes him an interesting character to play.

Not only is that going on, but there's a sense that money is

not delivering the promised pleasure and happiness and contentment.

It just sometimes feels as though the bonus has already been

but a lecture on thrift does not constitute foreplay.

To what extent is this a full-frontal attack

There he is, leafing through the brochures for his next lavish

house abroad and so forth, and there is an enormous amount of talk

about new kitchens and extensions and basements,

very familiar to a lot of people living in London now.

I don't know if it is an attack on that.

I think what John has written is more of a state of the nation,

in which he says this is what people talk about.

This is the lingua franca of a certain class.

It is how couples relate to each other, through objects

and the purchase of objects and the redecoration of houses.

When you show it in a drama, the emptiness and the slight sadness

And in the end, your bonus is not all that you hope.

It is a mere 30,000 - in your world, nothing.

When I went to speak to a banker at Credit Suisse about bonus time,

he said that John's account of what happened is entirely true.

The emotions of the moment at which a bonus is given and accepted, he

said that these meetings are often highly charged emotional affairs,

where people lose it, and then they move into a second stage

where a phone call is made and even a third stage where

People calm down and accept the numbers for what they are.

These are people who define their numbers by numbers, so

The other big project you are involved in is a film remake

Apart from anything else, in terms of leading with

your chin and setting yourself up for a big fall, I can't think of

It's a totally foolhardy career move.

When the idea was first mooted and they said

"We're thinking about making a movie,

"we think you are perfect casting", I said,

"Fantastic. I would love to hear about it".

Then they told me it was Dad's Army.

Any sensible person would say goodbye at that moment,

because you're not really dealing with a drama or comedy any more,

you're dealing with a national institution.

I like to think that if we met, we would both be the richer for it.

Arthur Lowe is my only reference to the character.

I did watch, obviously, loads of his portrayal.

But I think the pragmatics of film-making are that scenes are shot

at such a rate that after a while, you're no longer Arthur Lowe.

You are my version of Captain Mainwaring

The jackboot will not tread upon this hallowed land

We have talked about a big new film coming out, and a big TV series.

I suppose as an actor, you're not hoping for moments,

you're hoping for a sustained engagement with a series

of projects for the rest of your life.

We want a great Toby Jones moment, followed by a crash and burn,

I am looking into addiction next year,

and adultery the year after and a sequence of events.

If you watch this space, we will get the peaks and troughs you're

And you can see Toby Jones in the final episode of Capital

Well, as we've been hearing, David Cameron says he's fighting

like mad to secure a new deal or Britain in Europe

but there are growing suspicions that he's fighting and losing.

So where does this leave the Tories over our EU membership?

One of the government's most outspoken Brussels-sceptics is

Iain Duncan Smith, the Welfare Secretary, who was also at the

centre of recent controversies over tax credits and the Welfare Bill.

If the papers are not entirely wrong, it has been a rough few weeks

for negotiations on Europe. They have been put off until next year.

What is the mood like? The mood is actually very good. I am involved in

putting together the package that the Prime Minister wants to take to

the council, so we have been in discussion about that. The Prime

Minister has been clear that he wants to take a package that

supports the manifesto commitment. So in my area, on welfare, he wants

to have that commitment to people living here and contributing to the

system. That would be one of the key elements. A 4 year moratorium if you

are a worker from outside the EU if you come to Britain, you don't get

any benefits for four years? Yes, most people listening would be

thinking, if you have not been in the UK, why should you be able to

walk in and select which country you go to for the benefit you receive?

This would bring an end to the idea of what we call benefit tourism. We

do not mind people working, we mind people claiming off British

taxpayers for things they don't deserve. Is this the acid test of

these negotiations? There are a lot of things in these negotiations. Is

this crucial? Well, the Prime Minister has made it crucial to

himself in the sense that he has always talked about it. During the

newspaper reviews, I noticed that Rohan Silva made it clear that the

Prime Minister is making a speech reminding the Conservatives that we

were elected on a manifesto, and we need to deliver on that, regardless

of the state of the opposition. And the manifesto commitments were clear

on this. I am a little surprised about the newspaper articles today,

because I think the Prime Minister has been clear from the start that

he wants to deliver what he said he would deliver at the time of the

election. There is also a suggestion that if he doesn't get what he

wants, he would be prepared to lead the outcome paying, which to a lot

of people watching seems incredible. I always take articles written about

these things with a pinch of salt. I do know that the Prime Minister has

made it clear from the beginning that he was not prepared, and he

said this before, to come back with a deal that he did not think would

deliver on his commitments. He has been after reforming the European

Union, changing things in the welfare area and making sure we get

a much better system in Europe for us as well as for the rest of the

European Union. I was in Germany not long ago and I have spoken to the

French. Behind closed doors, almost every developed country in Europe

wants to see some kind of end to the idea of people just popping around

and taking benefits in different countries. Germany is very strong

about that. You say you are not sure why this is a story at the moment. I

can help you on this, because every time David Cameron is sitting in

that chair and he is asked about this, he avoids the possibility of

him ever leading the campaign against British member ship of

Europe. I wonder if the mood has changed in the last few weeks?

Again, it depends how you phrase these things. I have complete faith

that the Prime Minister wants to deliver on what he said he would at

the time of the election. It is worth reminding my colleagues and

everybody else that it is the Prime Minister who has done something

which people like me have been asking for four years, which is

deliver a referendum on whether we should stay in the European Union or

be outside it. Every other government has shifted away from

that. He has given us this. That is a huge starting point. On top of

that, he has always said that he wasn't just going to go through the

motions is. He wanted to deliver something that benefited Britain.

Every viewer will have the right to make that decision, not just me. But

right now, let me ask you about the benefits proposal. We are told that

not only are other European leaders against it, but even if it went

through, it would be illegal under European law to discredit against

people who are not your own citizens in this way. Do you understand

that? It is not as true as that. Let's start with universal credit

coming in now. That is already classed as a social assistance

programme in the European Union. That means it will deliver on two or

three of the items that we want to. For example, the child elements

under universal credit cannot be exported as they are at the moment.

Somebody can currently send money home. That cannot happen under

universal credit. Secondly, under universal credit, you will not be

able to claim unemployment benefit, no matter how long you have been

here. Those are two areas which have already delivered. There are other

things the Prime Minister is talking about, which is being here and

contributed. But universal credit already delivers on that. But

they're still legal problems. It has been suggested that one way around

this might be to say that nobody gets in work benefits until they

have been here for four years, including British citizens. So

younger British people might have to work for four years before they get

benefits to ensure that this covered Europe wide legality. The good news

is that universal credit already says that nobody from outside the UK

will be able to claim the benefits for being out of work. Then why are

we having this argument? It is the in work element of it that is the

debate. The European Union assumes that the in work supplement, which

will become universal credit, should be payable to anybody who comes in

to take up work. How would you react to a proposal to

remove benefits from British people who had to work for four years in

order to get round the problem? This is not part of proposal, we will

wait and see. Would you be against it? I am not going to put a position

down on this. I am in the business, with the Prime Minister, to deliver

what the Prime Minister said he won two that the time of the election

through the manifesto. He has said to his European colleagues that we

need to do this. I think this is a sign of strength. The Prime Minister

is determined not to come back with just any deal but a deal he knows he

can sell to the British people. That speaks volumes about his

determination. If you get what you collectively want on welfare

changes, would that be an offer you to want to stay inside the EU? Would

you campaign to stay in? I have always said and every single viewer

of this programme will reach the same conclusion, when the dealers on

the table, that is when you assess whether it is in the benefit of

Britain to stay in the European Union or leave. At that moment, my

position will become clear but it is dependent on what we get back. For

you, issues like Parliamentary sovereignty, getting out from the

European Court of Justice, those are important? All my life I have

campaigned that the European Union should never become a superstate.

That is why I was against the idea of joining the euro. The

Conservatives have said we are never going to join the euro. Thank

goodness we did not, look what happened to Greece and Italy, they

had deficits that were large, and we would be in a terrible state. But

cooperating and trading, that lies at the heart of Europe. That is what

this negotiation is about. You have been critical of the European

project, the waiters developing towards what you would see as a

superstate. Lots of people in continental Europe agree with that.

Marine Le Pen has given an interview today saying that British exit from

the EU would be like the Berlin Wall falling down, and a good thing as

well. I never listen to anything that Marine Le Pen or her supporters

say, they have such odious views. She might yet be president of

France? The reality is that you have two bits of Europe already within

the European Union, those within the euro, who required deeper and closer

ties and taxation, and those who are outside, of which Britain is the

leading part, who do not require that. That is the basis for why you

need to have a reformed Europe because you now have different types

of Europe within the European Union. For those who say we must not

touch it, my answer is that bank closed doors, every European nation

knows there are differentials. The other day, Eastern Europe was forced

to take migrants when they did not want it. What kind of inner group

have you got and all of that. Can I move to welfare? After the Autumn

Statement there was a general feeling that people at the bottom of

the keeper had the big threat of the tax credit cuts removed from them,

but subsequently there has been reports from the Resolution

Foundation saying that those same people would be just as worse off

because of universal credit by the end of this Parliament, the

Resolution Foundation says that average families will be ?1000 a

year worse off. Is that true? Let me explain something. I do not believe

it is. The Resolution Foundation result did not take into account

shall care, which they admitted. These figures are very movable. Add

the budget, the levels of the paper, the withdrawal rates, and the

allowances, how much you can earn before you have money taking away --

taking away in universal credit, they were set. Nothing has changed.

That was a fight you had with George Osborne and one? Those were

discussions we had at the time and we at the time of the budget. The

rest of the discussion about tax credits has had the IFA said that by

the end of this period there is no doubt that families at the bottom

will be considerably worse off than they would have been had the current

system continued? Nobody will lose any money on universal credit, tax

credits, because the cash protected. It is transitional protection. I

argued for that at the time and the Chancellor agreed that. Nobody loses

a penny, and likely would have done under tax credits. Universal credit

is not tax credit. It is six benefits, it is a much bigger

benefit, it has housing benefit in it for example, child benefit, all

sorts of bits and pieces. So they have misunderstood it? It is an

unemployment benefit as well. The ISS have misunderstood this? They

say people will be worse off. Tax credits subsidise massively somebody

at 16 hours of work. And occasionally a 30 hours. I thought

this was terrible. They had a low taper rate but if they went to 17,

18, they lost nearly 100% of their earnings. People would get confused

by taper rates. There were always points under tax credits that were

more generous than universal credit. That is why we protected

them. What universal credit does, as we should in the reports that have

been published this week which have been released to this programme,

under universal credit more people going to work faster, they stay in

work longer and earn more money. There are independent review coming

forward showing that universal credit is a massive progressive. I

know that Leytonstone is part of your area. After this appalling

attack in the station, what are your reflections about it in terms of

security? One-off people grabbing a iPhone going to a shopping centre or

tube station, no one can protect against that? This is my area and it

grieves me to think this kind of incident took place. I know the

police work incredibly hard, we have an anti-gangs programme. It is not

party political. The police are treating it as a terrorist attack

but it is an abomination to think of when a body doing this, whatever the

circumstances. This is one of the reasons why and the budget changes,

sorry, the spending review, we have not cut the police budget and they

will get the money necessary for them to secure the areas that might

be most threatened by terrorist attacks. Lots of people watching are

scared about going into public spaces, using public transport. What

is your message to them? We cannot let these people, terrorists,

dominate our space. The way we defeat them at the end of the day is

that our values, our freedom of expression, our freedom of

association, the freedom that capitalism brings to us, our ability

to take our families and children out at Christmas, none of that must

be curtailed. That is the reason why they attack us. We have a moderate

state that believes in help and assistance to people and does not

believe in this totalitarian idea which was described brilliantly by

Hilary Benn the other day as a fascist concept, are fascist regime

that we are up against, and we have always had to fight fascism. Iain

Duncan Smith, we will talk more after the news, but for now, thank

you. Now over to Roger

for the news headlines. A prominent Labour MP has called

for a "more respectful tone" Tristram Hunt,

who left the front bench when Jeremy Corbyn became leader,

said people were "frustrated" by the current divisions,

and he called on the different wings of the party to pull together rather

than fighting each other. We need to have a big and active

debate, but when you do get members of Parliament having to call in

police protection to their family, then we have crossed the line. Some

of the ugly comments surrounding the Stop The War Coalition, for example,

they have been very irresponsible with their and activities. -- their

language. There is severe flooding

across parts of Cumbria and southern Scotland this morning,

with waters continuing to rise and dozens of severe flood warnings

still in place. Hundreds of homes

and businesses have been evacuated, roads are underwater,

and some towns have been cut off. Floodwaters are expected to reach

their peak between now and midday. The next news on BBC One is

at 1 o'clock. Iain Duncan Smith is still with me,

and we're joined by Tristram Hunt. We were watching you on the news

having a real go at stop the war and so on. Your leader is going to break

bread with them soon as a special honorary guest at an event. We did

not send a strong message about the kind of abuse you're talking about

for him not to go there? Yes, I do not think he should go. The Stop The

War Coalition picketed the party headquarters when we were trying to

run a phone bank for the Oldham by-election. They were preventing

the election of a Labour member of Parliament. We have seen ugly

comments from them about Hilary Benn and the fact that Hilary Benn should

be sacked. He cannot work safe on the streets of Leeds ever again,

that was one of the comments. And the comments about Islamic State,

how the French always -- almost had it coming to them. There are

disreputable organisation. Jeremy Corbyn should step back and not good

to the fundraiser. Universal credit has been a long process, possibly

more expensive than you would have liked. How long is it before we see

universal credit across the country? It was cheaper and delivery

than it was forecast to be so it is cheaper. It is already rolling out.

There are quarter of a million people getting it. They are the easy

ones, are they? I will never do a big bang approach with everything

happens at once. You do it stage by stage. You learn the lessons and

roll it out in different areas. It will be in every single job centre

by early next year and then restart the full expansion of the other

benefits. If they will be shut down by 2018 for new entrants and then

you migrate all those on the other that or anything. -- on the other

benefits that are relevant. This is the right way to do this, it has an

amber rating. Amber can mean that you're about to stop. It is very

strong, it is the way that benefit should be ruled out in future. You

have very different policy solutions. Do you both share a moral

outrage about the discrepancies between the wealthy and the pool in

this country? The discrepancy is growing at the moment. When you look

at the charts, we are seeing more inequality, not just in Britain but

across the Western world. How you have policies to deal with that is

the call of labour pars purpose. The labour -- the Conservative

government thinks that you should cut tax for the wealthiest while

also closing centres to help the disadvantaged, I think those are the

wrong choices. You have to have an economy that functions and works.

Under the present government, I want to put a figure on the table, income

inequality is lower than it was under the last government. Is that

true? It is true. Income inequality was lower than it was in 2010. We

have put on the table a huge range of child care packages. Massive

support through universal credit. We need to focus on the quality of the

provision. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

Gentlemen, we are out of time. I am so sorry. Unless Iain Duncan Smith

is going to give us a go on the spoons, we have no music. That is

all for today. Jo Coburn will be here with

the Sunday Politics in an hour. Her guests will include Labour's

shadow welfare minister, Owen Smith, Emily Maitlis will be

in this seat next Sunday morning when her guests will include rock

legend Chrissie Hynde and the man leading Labour's campaign to

remain in the EU, Alan Johnson. as BBC Two brings you some inspiring

cultural treats - Let Darcey introduce us

to her ballet heroes.