13/12/2015 The Andrew Marr Show

Hailed as the world's best chance to save the planet,

the climate change deal from Paris finally emerges Nearly 200 countries

are aspiring to make it work, but action?

My guests this morning Environment Secretary Amber Rudd,

Alan Johnson, on Labour's campaign to keep Britain in the EU.

Plus Rock Legend Chrissie Hynde, on a life she freely

All that - plus, Andrew's been talking to Damon Albarn

and Rufus Norris about their 21st Century take on Alice in Wonderland.

And later Chrissie will be playing us out with a Christmas classic

# The children are singing # Your be back at Christmas time #.

And joining me to review the papers this morning Colleen Graffy,

formerly of the US state department, Shami Chakrabarti of Liberty

and Andrew Pierce, of the Daily Mail.

And we'll have reaction to a breaking story on what British

intelligence knew about torture, from Alex Salmond.

But first the news with Rachel Burden.

President Obama has said a new deal on climate change offers "the best

Speaking at the White House, he said world leaders had

The agreement was also welcomed by China,

A deal is done, the moment that almost 200 countries reached

an agreement on tackling climate change.

Smiles and relief as delegates who had been locked in negotiations

celebrated an achievement that some thought impossible.

There is a target to keep average global temperature increases well

below 2 degress Celsius and are aimed towards 1.5 degrees.

There is to be a review every five years, so countries ratchet up

The long-term aim for greenhouse gases is that emissions should peak

as soon as possible, and then be cut rapidly,

so a point is reached in the second half of the century where no more

There is also money to help developing countries adapt

to climate change and get clean technology, though not as much

All countries have had to make compromises to get to this deal,

No agreement is perfect, including this one.

Negotiations that involve nearly 200 nations are always challenging.

Even if all the initial targets set in Paris are met, we will only be

part of the way there when it comes to reducing carbon

from the atmosphere, so we cannot be complacent

The problem is not solved because of this accord.

Some critics say the deal is too weak, and the pledges that countries

have made so far won't reach the targets they have set

themselves, achieving those aims would need a fundamental shift away

from fossil fuels, led not just by politicians but by business

But for the first time, all countries involved in this

process have committed themselves to cutting carbon emissions.

Shaker Aamer, the UK's last Guantanamo Bay detainee,

has denounced Islamic extremism, in his first interview

since being released from 14 years in captivity.

He said his years of pain in detention were washed away when he

was reunited with his wife. Speaking to the Mail on Sunday he condemned

attacks like the murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby.

Downing Street has insisted David Cameron will continue to make

the case for a curb on in-work benefits for EU migrants in Britain.

The Prime Minister was responding to reports in today's papers

that he was planning to backtrack from putting the plan at the heart

of his efforts to renegotiate Britain's membership of the EU.

France's far-right party, the Front National, is battling

for control of several of the country's regions,

as the second round of local elections gets underway.

The party's leader Marine Le Pen is hoping the polls will boost her

profile ahead of presidential elections in 2017.

The vote in some areas is expected to be close.

A new group has been set up in Cumbria to look at ways

of reducing the impact of extreme weather, a week after Storm Desmond

The Cumbrian Floods Partnership Group will try to find ways to slow

down some of the bigger rivers, and give local residents a say

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

Now to the front pages of the papers.

I will take you through some of today's papers. The Sunday Times has

this picture of the Queen with her jewels and says the Queen's jeweller

pays no tax. And that quote from the Muslim attack. The man now fears

retribution from Isis. The jihadis must get the hell out of Britain is

the story in the Sunday mail. A world exclusive by the Mail on

Sunday. The story of hooker who spent 14 years in Guantanamo Bay,

tortured he says, in the presence of British intelligence. -- the story

of Shaker Aamer. The Sunday Telegraph, a story from Downton

Abbey and their story is Cameron's climb-down on EU benefits, what they

are calling a climb-down. The Tories warning it is 1000 miles from an

acceptable deal. The Observer, a major leap for mankind, reflecting

on that deal coming out of Paris. An historic deal, nearly 200 countries

signing up to climate change. With me to review the papers and a bit

more depth are Shami, Colleen and Andrew. Welcome to you all. Colleen,

start us up. A major leap for mankind climate deal but the devil

is in the detail. First it needs to be ratified. The countries need to

sign up to it. Secondly it needs to be implemented. We have seen this

before, for examples at Kyoto protocol where everyone had this

fantastic requirements on target but they were requirements and

timetables which was set through political horse trading. So the

question is, how will that get implemented question what they are

talking about $100 billion to help countries. That is a lot of money.

It was one of the sticking issues for the United States, because they

wanted a legally binding financial commitment and the US cannot do

that. China and India don't want to commit to it. They have a concept of

differentiated responsibility, where they want everyone else to cut but

they don't but as we heard China is the biggest emitter. Nearly 200

signatories, does it make you think, Andrew, the argument about

scepticism towards climate change has gone? That people are moving

towards an, yes this is happening? I think there will always be a healthy

dose of scepticism. A lot of this is not legally binding and therefore

will there be any major difference? At India and China going to reform

the ways they trade? I am not so sure. But there are still a number

of sceptics who do not believe in climate change, global warming, one

of whom is very prominent, Jeremy Corbyn's brother. He made an

eloquent case on the BBC the other day about why it is all fiction.

Shami, talked us through the story you have from the Sunday mail. I

have to pay tribute to the Mail on Sunday today. My recollection is no

paper has been so consistent in campaigning for the closure of

Guantanamo Bay and for Shaker Aamer's release. You will know he

was the last British resident in Guantanamo, he has only recently

come on. A wonderful, wonderful spread today. Ultimately very

positive, because you see this man who has been illegally interned at

Guantanamo Bay for 14 years, but nonetheless he does not seem better.

He denounces terrorism. He makes the comments that you quoted about

jihadis in Britain and is clearly a man of peace. However, there is some

pretty serious allegations that MI5 and people who served in Mr Blair's

government have to answer. I guess we can look forward to hearing those

answers in the weeks ahead. That British intelligence work in the

room. He talks about his torture, which includes things like having

his head smashed against a wall during investigations. He talks

about one agent in particular who called himself John, who said he was

from MI5. He had a smart English accent. The Mail on Sunday traces

this incident back to a time when agents flew to background with Mr

Blair. When you read the details that are coming out now from this

account, where are you? I think we have to remember this is 2002, right

after 2001, after the 9/11. I went to Guantanamo Bay twice, once with a

phone UK affairs committee. Guantanamo Bay is completely

different from his story, when he was held in programme, one of the

reasons they set up Guantanamo Bay. I think we have to put into context,

think of Paris, right after Paris right now you have the emergency

situation. But you don't doubt he is telling the truth about the torture?

We don't know. One of the trainings for Guantanamo Bay detainees is to

lie. This man was held without trial, without being told what he

was supposed to have done for 14 years. It is a stain on America. You

are using a criminal paradigms for laws of law. It sounds IQ are saying

that could happen again. The American administration might turn

to... No, it is wrong. Without trial for 14 years, you can't think this

has been helpful to America. This country and other countries studied

at they have committed a crime and holding him in prison... In the

Falklands you did not have individuals asking for their lawyer.

But is it right? That is what we have to figure out with this new

situation. It isn't. It is not a criminal situation. Hollande said we

are at war. Obama said he would close down Guantanamo Bay. It is

still open and people are still being held there without knowing

what they are supposed to have done. It is probably recruited more

terrorists than it has prevented. Andrew, if you can take us on to

Cameron's migrant benefits. They are calling it a capitulation in the

Telegraph. Europe is the issue which has bedevilled every Conservative

leader since Margaret Thatcher. It now looks like a big plus Cameron

thought he had shot the Ukip Fox... Our first national referendum since

1975. In their own manifesto the Conservatives said the minimum

requirement for renegotiation was to withhold in the year benefits. He

has gone round Europe running up air miles Annie has no support for it.

He is going to dinner in Brussels on Thursday. He is going into the

negotiations like the emperor with no clothes. Number ten say it is

still on the table. They are not going to be able to deliver. They

are resisting this very firmly, saying is simply not true he is

giving up on it. He has no support for it. In the Sunday Times Dominic

Cummings, a former aide to Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, is now

a big part of the let's get out of the EU campaign. He says the Prime

Minister sought trivia Annie has not even got that. Colleen, take us on

to the long-running story of the week. Those comments from Donald

Trump and what seems to have happened now is Islamophobia still

fuelling his success in the polls? Every time he says something, attack

on war hero John Maclean, we thought it would be over. He could say

something against puppies and people would still support it. I think part

of it is a media situation. A household name in America. When you

are polling and you call people up, there are 14 individuals running for

president. How many can name them? They say who do you like and they

go... Trump. He is on the Apprentice, is known. Because he is

up in the polls he gets media attention and because of that it is

a sort of Kim Kardashian situation of American politics. How worried do

we need to be? Can such a divisive character win the election? You need

to see if he has a ground game, people out there ready to get up the

vote. He does not have money there. He doesn't need money because he is

all this free press. Politicians have been very quick to refute what

he had said and talk about him is crazy. And yet, is he speaking to

people's fears in America? This is what is at the heart of what they

are asking now. Maybe he is. It reminds me of Nigel Farage. He was

speaking to concerns that people felt the politicians were not

addressing, but when it came to actual elections they did not end up

turning up for him as everyone predicted. That is the thinking on

Donald Trump. He is expressing things that individuals think

politicians are afraid to address the political correctness. He is out

there being bold and sounding decisive, but getting out the vote

will be another thing. I want to call this a majorly

forward for Saudi women, quite a turning point when they've been

given the vote. This Saudi women have been able to vote in some local

elections but nonetheless it is 2015 and finally some Saudi women got to

vote. A big PR coup for the taxi company Uber because women cannot

drive there so they provided a lift to the polling stations. Women were

able to stand as candidates but not to campaign openly. It is a moving

moment but goodness me, it's not anywhere near enough. Hopefully just

getting the right to drive would be nice. All men should wear a wig...

Like Donald Trump? No, he's got real hair. I have been invited to pull

his hair. This is going to go viral! Talk about this move by Jeremy

Corbyn to get moderates into this party under the widening of the

membership rule. This is a story in the Telegraph. Corbyn was elected

under a huge wave of popular support, a lot of people signed up

for ?3, so if there was a leadership contest in a couple of months he

would probably win with the majority because he is more popular than ever

with Labour Party members so the moderates are suggesting we need to

get 100,000 people more at the centre of the Labour Party so that

at some point when there is a leadership challenge they have

ammunition. It doesn't say which leader they are going to potentially

rally behind. Or whether the moderates are queueing up to come

in. This language is very loaded. Who is a moderate? Some of the

people who feel they will be deselected by Jeremy Corbyn would

say they are moderate. The Shadow Education Secretary. I suspect that

it is a bold attempt, 100,000? It is a lot. Let's finish on a sparkling

moment from you. We don't know what to call our champagne, do we? Just

go with it, champagne. It is wonderful there is this idea of

champagne being grown in England. This one is a well-known brand, and

it was started by two gentleman from California that came over and said,

the soil here is the same soil as in France, why not grow it here? I dry

it, it is very nice champagne. You're saying this to get someone to

send you a case of this before Christmas! We should be dominating

the market, why not? Thanks for coming in.

Let's return to the story on Shaker Aamer, released

from Guantanamo last month, after 14 years.

Today he gave an exclusive interview to the Mail On Sunday,

where he claimed British officials had been present in the room whilst

I'm joined now from Aberdeen by Alex Salmond, former

First Minister and Foreign Affairs Spokesman, Alex Salmond.

What do you make of what you have heard or read today? The first thing

to say about the peace in the mail on Sunday is a very well-written

piece, as you would expect, that this man seems to have emerged from

5000 days illegal captivity, sane and with a remarkable generosity of

spirit. It is an extraordinary piece to read. But the real politics of

this is what you point to, and that's the allegation that in

January 2002, British officials witnessed not just his abduction,

which we knew about, but his torture. Also, as a point of detail,

but they came into the air base on the same flight as the then Prime

Minister Tony Blair. The not unreasonable allegation that Shaker

Aamer makes is that both the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and Jack Straw

must have known not just about his illegal abduction but also about his

torture at the hands of the US authorities. Does this change

anything? What would you want to see happen? Obviously, as in so many

things, Tony Blair and Jack Straw have a great deal to answer for.

They have got to be asked the straight question, how could you not

have known about the fate that had befallen a British citizen?

Governments have many responsibilities but the prime one

is to keep their own citizens safe from harm and governments are not

meant to collaborate on the illegal abduction and torture of one of our

own citizens so both the then Prime Minister and Home Secretary have got

to tell us exactly what they knew and when they knew it. As you said,

these are allegations at the moment, extraordinarily humane interview he

has given but do you read what you -- do you believe what you are

reading is true? I have not spoken to Shaker Aamer myself, but I doubt

if anyone reading that comprehensive interview, and what he says about

other things and the detail he goes into would doubt the veracity of his

comments. Apart from anything else, few if any body, maybe with the

exception of one of the guests on your programme today, would doubt

that this man was held illegally and improperly over a period of 14 years

and held in detention at Guantanamo Bay long after everyone knew he had

no connection with terrorism whatsoever. One of the suspicions is

that there had to be a reason for him not being released despite being

cleared for release twice over that period. It has always been centred

on the revelations over Guantanamo Bay, it now appears a reason might

have been of what had gone on in January 2002 at Baglan airbase.

Thank you for joining us. Well, after more weather warnings

for the north of England over the weekend, let's see what's

happened to those parts of the country still recovering

from last week's Storm Desmond. There have been weather warnings in

force again this weekend but mostly to do with the change in

temperature, you saw Alex Salmond shivering in Scotland. It has been a

very cold night. There will be more rain in the week ahead but it won't

be anything like as wet as the last couple of weeks. At the moment it is

turning milder again across much of the UK this week. There is a big

temperature contrast right now, it is really cold in the north, down to

minus nine last night, but warm in the south. The boundary is this line

of rain, this weather front, which will very slowly push northwards

through today. Many southern areas, particularly in the south-west,

staying dry and mild, and in Scotland it will generally be a

sunny, Sunday morning. If you are stuck underneath this rain band, it

will not be very pleasant, a lot of low cloud and missed, temperatures

struggling. It is still cold across Scotland. Tonight in Scotland that

rain band pushing northwards could bring snow, and to the north of the

Central belt there could be up to ten centimetres on higher ground

tonight. Bear that in mind, there could be some in Glasgow as well.

Thank you very much indeed. The deal from Paris,

when it finally came, The host nation, France,

extended the summit by an extra day to overcome stubborn divisions,

and thus negotiators were forced to work till darkness fell

yesterday, to bring together nearly The accord promises to steer

the global economy away from fossil fuels and slow down the rate

at which the earth is warming. And how fast will the world move

on what are currently just promises? Joining me from Paris,

Environment Secretary Amber Rudd, who's been representing

the British Government It is a big moment this, nearly 200

countries signing up but I guess you could say the real work only just

begins now. I think that's absolutely right. It was an

extraordinary achievement and during the week it didn't always looked

like it would be possible. It went down to the wire with the final

meeting suspended for an hour while final negotiations took place, then

we got it, but it is only the start. The French did a fantastic job

managing the process, but as they set themselves it is a step in

the right direction, a new road, but the work begins now. For anyone

looking for hard, binding phrases, this is an aspiration, isn't it? An

aspiration to limit change to 1.5 degrees but in terms of the real

promises we can -- people can make, we are looking at 2.3. Yes, this set

us on a pathway to try and achieve that. It is ambitious but it is also

legally binding in some ways and not in other ways. We had to get the

balance of being totally inclusive, getting 200 countries to sign up,

but also not having such a tough compliance regime which you could

say we had at Kyoto which didn't succeed that some countries would

step away. This is a compromise, nevertheless it is an historic

moment. What will be concerning many people when they look at this, they

will want to believe this will be enacted, and yet it is dependent on

five-year assessment. We know that the reporting each country must do

about itself is binding, but the target is not legally binding, it

cannot be. Will anything happen if they fail? No, there is no tough

compliance in that way but we have the political will. We have the

five-year reviews, that is not a negligible thing. That is compulsory

and it was a big win. But nothing will happen as a result of failure?

What do you want, some sort of government vote diplomacy? The

countries have agreed to do this, they have got to come forward with

the proposals. We saw the support from civil societies. It is not a

perfect deal but we must not make an enemy of the good. Let's talk about

Britain and how seriously we can take this. Since the election in

2015, which policies can you hold up and save these will cut emissions?

We are the first developed country to put an end date on coal? I've

received a lot of congratulations from people that this conference, we

will expand our offshore wind provision. We are committed to this

deal, but we will do it in a different way which is providing

better value for money for consumers. Driving down prices is an

essential part of making sure we can deliver on these commitments. We

will be holding the industry accountable. You have put an end

date on coal but it seems a funny time to be cancelling subsidies on

renewable energy, and when you look at what has been introduced, a cut

on biomass subsidy, a scrapping of the green deal, a carbon tax on

solar, an increase on tax on small cars, you cannot genuinely say those

are all measures and policies now that will help people move towards

renewables? But I do say that, because it is about delivering value

for money for people. There's no point in having renewables which are

permanently expensive. Value for money is not the same as a policy to

cut emissions. When the Chancellor has said I'm introducing these

measures, does he ever ask about what the impact will be on

emissions? I don't agree with that. We have got to cut emissions and

give value for money, you don't need to separate them. We can grow our

economy and deliver a lower carbon future. We don't have to do one or

the other, we have got to do both. It doesn't worry you then when you

have the UN chief environmental scientist saying that the UK is

shifting away from clean energy as the rest of the world is rushing

towards it? She says, it is a serious signal and a perverse signal

that Britain is doing this now. I completely disagree, and in fact the

evidence since then in terms of taking off coal and making other

statements I hope would bring her back onside. We have made a clear

policy on how we can deliver. I think we have a strong, clear story

on energy and a low carbon future. The impression being created is that

since the Lib Dems went away you have been out to please the

backbenchers more, that actually this has been the sense that climate

change is a bit soft or little bit of a waste of money for many on your

own side, who think once the Lib Dems have gone we can broadly do

what we want. There are people who are soft on the

subject that they come from all around the political spectrum. What

is the logic on taxing something you would like to move people towards?

Renewables now don't get an exemption and the main reason for

that is because a third of that money was going overseas. That is

the wrong thing to do with taxpayers money. So everyone now suffers as a

result of that, if they want to move towards that? I don't delay do

suffer as a result of it. The cost of solar have come down in the last

15 years by 80%. We have to make sure the subsidy reflects that. I

will be clear about that. If the costs come down, the subsidy comes

down. It is the right thing to do. 15% of all energy. Do you accept we

are not been hit that target? It is not going to happen? I don't accept

it, what I do is a difficult target and we need to take more measures to

achieve it and eat and transport. We expect to have 30% of our

electricity from renewable energy by 2020, which exceeds it. You wrote to

colleagues, a draft that was seen, saying you wouldn't hit that target?

Unless we took action across government, which is exactly what we

are going to be doing. Let's have a quick word before we go on flooding

in Cumbria. Many people, thousands of people suffering from that. We

had not just from yourself but Liz Truss, the acceptance that this is

caused by climate change, isn't it? Well, there are trends which occur

which caused by climate change or severe weather events. I would not

pay an individual storms to those but I would say addressing climate

change is about security for people and making sure for the long-term

future they are not impacted by really dangerous weather events.

Does that make you think twice, when you see individuals who are facing

really tough insurance premiums shooting through the roof, if you

accept this is part of something everyone is responsible for, should

more help and work go towards them? We are doing that, helping with Ward

flood defences. We have planned and this government put more money into

flood defences and protect another 3000 people from dangerous flooding.

We take local flooding and local dangerous storms like this very

seriously. Amber Rudd, thank you for joining us.

Few people in rock have had the musical and cultural impact

Arriving in London 40 years ago, just in time for punk,

she seized the opportunity to create a band that has stood

The Pretenders were a non-stop hit machine, and Hynde's own life

She's detailed the triumphs, the tragedies, and the lessons

learnt in her autobiography, entitled Reckless.

Chrissie's here and we'll talk in a moment, but let's remind

# I gotta have some of your attention

I was watching to see if your foot was tapping. You say you hate that

song? I love seeing the guys, Jimmy, Pete and Martin. You are a survivor,

a remarkable feat to have kept going, the kind of hits you come up

with. No musical collaboration you haven't flirted with. What has been

behind all of that momentum? I just love music and I grew up at a time

where there was so much. The first single I bought was by the Beatles.

I was about 14. I grew up at a great time for music. I fell in love with

it. It has always been my incentive to be a person in a band. Your

autobiography you have called Reckless. When you read it it is

very war and blunt. I cannot work out if it is catharsis or torture.

-- raw. I try to think of it more as a comic book, it is supposed to be a

fun read, like an album should be fun to listen to. But if there is

any truth in a record, there will be some pain in it because you are

touching upon human experience, so it is

You waited until your parents were no longer here before telling them

about everything that happened in your life. I got that out of the way

in the first page because I do feel... Doing it behind their backs,

but I did a lot behind their backs and I do not think they would have

enjoyed reading this book and I didn't want to... What about your

goals, is anything in it that shocked your children? I didn't

discuss it with them. They have or is been very encouraging. They have

read it? I think they have. They seem to be fans of what I do and

they always encourage me. They never saw one of my shows until they were

about 14 because it was always past their bedtime. They didn't grow up

as rock 'n' roll kids or anything. Where people concerned about you

spilling the beans or bringing the skeletons out of the closet? No

skeletons out there! A lot of people probably wouldn't want to be in

somebody's story, but that story wasn't complete without it. But I

don't say anything bad about anyone, I don't think. I tried to keep it

light. I could have gone dark but I don't think that was the purpose of

me telling my story. You described the moment you turned up to marry

Ray Davies at the Registry office and you are arguing so badly they

would not marry you? That happens to people. More than once? Not in that

case, no. I can't believe I am talking about him, the one person

who asked not to be in the book. Did it raise any problems for you? Since

he has been in the book? I don't know. I think he would probably

like... I think he came out very well in it. There are many surreal

moments in that book, whether it is the duet with Sinatra, the

collaboration with Morris. One of your fans Julie Burchill said your

music was what it might have sounded like if John Wayne had climbed off a

horse and joined the Shangir Las. It is written very poetically. I know

you didn't like the song you just heard. Do you have a favourite hit?

You are playing us out on one later. I like a lot of what you would call

the album tracks which are more rock tracks. Radio friendly records are

the ones that most people here. I like the more rock staff, that you

would have to be a The Pretenders fan to know. Thank you very much

indeed. Damon Albarn's part

as frontman for the band Blur, But increasingly he's proving

himself a real force His take on the Elizabethan

alchemist Dr Dee was a major hit Now Albarn has teamed up again

with Rufus Norris, the National Theatre's new artistic

director, for a digital era "Wonder.land" has

great music, lyrics When they met, Andrew asked

Damon Albarn if his virtual band Gorillaz had inspired this online

adventure with Alice. I don't think directly

that we sat down and went, I think it had more to do

with my daughter really than Gorillaz, sort of the idea

of the phone being the portal Let's talk about that

because the underlying conceit of this is that the rabbit hole,

down which Alice falls and comes into Wonderland and so on,

is in fact in everybody's hand, it's the mobile phone,

which allows kids in particular but everybody to enter virtual

worlds which can be colourful Yeah, you don't know who's behind

the avatar, basically. On our first meeting,

Damon pulled his phone out and said All of us have children that

are the same age as the principal character in this piece, and it's

something that we could identify with very easily, but then crucially

I think it became imperative that we didn't approach it

from the perspective of concerned parents, but more from

the perspective of teenagers, for whom this whole world is very

real and very positive, largely, as well as obviously

having the slightly But also it seems to me

there's aspects of it The Music Hall, I thought,

a bit of cabaret there as well. When I first tried to get my head

round what sort of palate I'd use, I suppose I kind of imagined

a Temperance band walking outside Lewis Carroll's house,

and there being a sort of a moment of reflection

on his behalf about Alice, He doesn't really give

you a traditional narrative, and in that sense it was such

a modern book at the time. And we can say you do bring in most

of the familiar characters - Tweedledee, Tweedledum,

the cat, the white rabbit. Yeah, I think the cat

is the most sinister. I mean that picture,

that first time... It made me feel very

nostalgic for my journey through Alice In Wonderland

when I was a kid, being read it I think the pictures

were incredibly powerful in that, and I didn't understand

the caterpillar then And the two of you worked together

on Dr Dee in Manchester. Yes, one thing that we have

in common is an interest in, in the broadest sense,

our English spirituality, and in a way both the story

of Dr Dee and him as a character but also Lewis Carroll,

it's very iconically English and its roots go very deep,

and I think that's something we're Tell me a little bit about finding

a hit because War Horse bankrolled you for quite a while but of course

you never know what the next one You never know, and you

always get it wrong. War Horse was pretty much a car

crash in its first preview. Curious Incident,

you know, you could have taken a little bit more

of a All of the shows that have done very

well would not by any one If it were possible to predict

and build those hits, Damon,

when you were writing the music "Yes, this one is

going to really work"? There's a story and you kind of,

sort of, you go into quite blind really and you start writing stuff

and then seeing the relationship between one piece and another,

and if you don't get that sense of flow, which is the most important

thing, you can lose something that sort of on paper or just playing

around the piano sounds # I've got a notion,

for eyes like the ocean Andrew talking to Damon a little

earlier. All those promoting the case

for Britain remaining in the EU have traditionally deployed the arguments

of fear at what a Brexit The will tell you of instability,

of economic ruin, of the unknown. That remaining in is the way

to preserve everything Except these days,

nothing about Europe, whether it's the migrant exodus,

Schengen, the borders or the ability to respond to terrorism,

looks particularly stable, or known. One man whose job is to convince us

it really is, is Alan Johnson, leading Labour's

campaign to stay in. Very nice of you to come in. Is it a

risk, to leave the EU? A huge risk, we have been members for 40 years.

Either dissipated in 1975. You were too young. At the time there were

nine member states, we had only just joined. It was in effect a

referendum of whether to go in. No country has written themselves away

from this crucial, international body. You just heard Amber Rudd

talking about if they could make that deal on climate change stick.

We have the procedures and the relationship and the process to do

that, which is Europe, through the European Union. We cannot solve

climate change on our own. We can help to solve it more effectively by

working with other countries. Ignores so much to say the risk is

in going out, not in staying in, when people look at Europe now they

say this is a continent in crisis. Whether it is a millions crossing

continents to come here, no uniformity of police, builders

borders, nomad jihadis, people look at this and say, this is not what we

signed up to. This is not the Europe of 75. Do we want any more of it? In

75 it was all about political union because any political union can do

things... Like David Cameron will be arguing on Thursday, leave Brexit

aside, will be calling for more control on guns across the European

Union. All the things you mentioned are arguments for staying in. No one

who voted to go in in 75 didn't vote because all of the problems of the

world would be solved, but because some of those problems we could do

much more effectively in an increasingly joined up world in

Europe. On the issue about refugees, Europe is trying very hard to

resolve that. We ought to be at the of that, helping them to resolve

that. Instead of that, Britain seems to be over by the exit door

whingeing and moaning instead of playing its role.

You've got Germany saying one thing and Hungary saying another, they are

post on what should be a central issue. How can you say there is

uniformity of action when the continent cannot agree with itself

anyway? Because if they were separate countries they would be

doing that anyway to a much greater degree, and you would be looking for

a formulation to bring them together to thrash this out. Britain is much

better placed. We are not part of Schengen which means refugees

outside of the UK have got to register in the first country they

come to but they need a visa to come to Britain. If we leave the European

Union we lose the Dublin accord. The trouble is, we have heard

reassurance on this stuff from Labour in the past, back in 2004 you

predicted 15,000 per year would come through the doors, 600,000 came

within the first two years. Why would anyone trust your numbers and

listen to labour on immigration matters? This is a different thing,

it is about free movement in the EU. It is about trust when you are

putting those arguments forward. We gave Britain the first referendum

that it had on this, and the 40 years since then has seen Britain

much better protected in terms of consumer affairs, in terms of people

at work because of the social dimension to Europe, and Europe is

better than this single issue that David Cameron is concentrating on,

which is in work benefits for migrants. We think there was a case

to increase habitual residency, but the way to go about that is to build

alliances, to make friends, and to genuinely influence what's going on,

not to make this one package of yes or know, as if reform of Europe was

an event when it is a process. Work benefits paid out to migrants this

something you continue to back, and you don't back the Prime Minister

who says it has got to end? We think habitual residency should be

increased. David Cameron said it should be four years, which no one

thought he would even get close to, then make this the focal point of

what's going on in Europe. Lots of people think it is crazy that the UK

economy is paying out, they should be able to get tax credits or help

with housing when they haven't contributed anything into the

system. Most other European countries have a system where you

contribute, so there is a contributory system to benefit. That

was the original idea of the Labour government in 1945 but it has been

diminished. We could return to that, but there's also a real, in other

European union countries, to increase habitual residency and the

way to deal with that is to be a participating part of Europe, to be

leading and not leaving. 74% of people that were polled back the

Prime Minister on this. There is real concern about that sense that

small communities... Tristram Hunt has said, in his community this is

what is happening, he recognises that. Do you? People are getting

crowded, forced to deal with services that are not there. You

must recognise this is a major concern for people. It is a concern

that we can do a lot to address in terms of our domestic policy because

lots of companies are bringing over workers from Eastern Europe for

instance when they could be using British workers, but they are doing

it under the guise of agency workers. There is the issue of

whether Turkey joins or not, it is a long-running thing. This could be

another 77 million people now that could come to the UK if they wanted,

claim benefits, the rest of it. The issue about Europe is bigger than

the sum of its parts. The issue of free movement which you are

concentrating on is an issue that benefits Britain. No country has

more of its people living and working in other developed countries

than in Britain. More than Poland. Is that what you're saying, go and

work somewhere else? The referendum won't be on one aspect of this, it

will be on the whole issue about whether we stay part of Europe or

not. Every country has accepted free movement as part of the deal for

trading in this enormous trading block. You said this is a once in a

generation decision, people have got to look at the long term and that

has got to include the risks. What happens if the government comes in

that says I'm not going to stick to that, I am going to allow more

benefits to people, I am going to increase free movement. People have

got to go into this saying, I know that the next whatever, 30 years,

they are not going to attack my community or hurts my economical

status even more because that's the risk. I hope it is more than 30

years, this is the most profound political decision of my lifetime,

but people will know in an increasingly interdependent world we

need to be part of our continent, not out bearing isolation. Not every

problem can be solved but Europe is not something that is done to us, it

is something we participate in. That is what people think, that it is

done to us. Some people are more intelligent than they are given

credit for, people understand, they understood in 75 the importance of

being part of our continent, and I'm sure they will understand that when

the referendum comes, but this will be an important debate and I don't

think that anyone should be complacent about the outcome. Alan

Johnson, thank you very much indeed. Now over to Rachel for

the news headlines. President Barack Obama has hailed an

agreement reached by nearly 200 nations that is designed to curb

global warming as ambitious and historic.

The Paris deal aims to curb global warming to less than

The agreement, which is partly legally binding and partly

voluntary, will come into being in 2020.

The Energy and Climate Change Secretary Amber Rudd said the Paris

deal was a compromise of sorts and not a perfect deal but an historic

moment internationally. Shaker Aamer, the UK's last

Guantanamo Bay detainee, has denounced Islamic extremism,

in his first interview since being released

from 14 years in captivity. Mr Aamer said his years of pain

in detention were "washed away" Speaking to the Mail on Sunday,

he also condemned attacks like the murder of

Fusilier Lee Rigby. Downing Street has insisted

David Cameron will continue to make the case for a curb on in-work

benefits for EU migrants in Britain. The Prime Minister was responding

to reports in today's papers that he was planning to backtrack

from putting the plan at the heart of his efforts to renegotiate

Britain's membership of the EU. The next news is on BBC One

is at one o'clock. Thanks, well Alan Johnson

and Chrissie Hynde join me now. There is an old relationship here,

isn't there? It's not in the book! Did you ask not to be in the book?

Some Jamie is... A recording engineer who has worked with

Chrissy. You were in a band, do you ever look at this... I love The

Pretenders. That album, which was coming out at punk, which I never

had a lot of time for, but there was this melodious voice and great

tracks. Your regret is that you didn't write songs after your 20s,

how do you know when you will break through? I wrote them but no one was

interested! I don't know that you know you are going to break through.

When I was doing it that wasn't the agenda, the agenda was frankly not

to be part of the establishment. It's different now. We are going to

let you stop talking. The guitarist is ready for the performance.

We have had the Stop The War Christmas party, are they a vital

part of democracy as Jeremy Corbyn says? They are part of the

democratic society. He was their chair. If we try to emulate this

idea of being a protest group and shape our party in that way, I've

got no doubt that is not in Jeremy's plans, but that is what concerns

people. Thank you very much indeed. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour

with The Sunday Politics - his guests will include

Yvette Cooper, who's been to Calais to see the refugee crisis

at first hand. Andrew Marr will be back next week

for a special Christmas edition Sir John Major will be

live in the studio and David Tennant will be

explaining how he's helping the Royal Shakespeare Company

celebrate the 400th anniversary of William

Shakespeare in 2016. Until then, we leave

you with Chrissie Hynde and her classic Christmas

hit, 2000 Miles.