31/01/2016 The Andrew Marr Show


31/01/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 31/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Who are the biggest powers in today's world, global companies

:00:00.:00:08.

That's at the heart of this week's bitter row over the Google tax deal.

:00:09.:00:13.

Today, for the first time, we hear both sides.

:00:14.:00:37.

After days of silence, Google today explains its case:

:00:38.:00:40.

my guests include their Vice President for Communications

:00:41.:00:43.

And the Business Secretary Sajid Javid, on that and a major challenge

:00:44.:00:52.

The other big story of the week is Europe, with the Prime Minister

:00:53.:01:02.

I'll be joined by one of the leading business advocates of a British Exit

:01:03.:01:10.

And for journalists and everyone interested in journalism,

:01:11.:01:14.

the standout film at the moment is about the Boston Globe's

:01:15.:01:17.

investigation into paedophile priests.

:01:18.:01:19.

I'll talk to Michael Keaton, Spotlight's star, later.

:01:20.:01:28.

Plus, from North Carolina, some sublime music.

:01:29.:01:36.

The gorgeous voice of Rhiannon Giddens.

:01:37.:01:43.

Plus, on the papers, tormentor in chief in the Commons

:01:44.:01:49.

of both Google and the BBC, Margaret Hodge, and on the eve

:01:50.:01:52.

of the first Primary in the US presidential election,

:01:53.:01:54.

a Republican abroad, Kate Andrews.

:01:55.:01:56.

We begin with some breaking news. It has been announced that Sir Terry

:01:57.:02:10.

Wogan has died after a short but brave battle with cancer. Sir Terry

:02:11.:02:17.

Pastore surrounded by his family. A statement from the BBC reads,"

:02:18.:02:21.

whilst that we understand he will be missed by many, we ask for privacy

:02:22.:02:33.

at this time". That is a statement from his family. The death announced

:02:34.:02:37.

in the last few moments of the broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan.

:02:38.:02:43.

David Cameron is to put forward new proposals on the proposed

:02:44.:02:45.

"emergency brake" for in-work benefits for EU migrants.

:02:46.:02:54.

Last week, the European Commission said Britain could apply

:02:55.:02:56.

an emergency brake for up to four years,

:02:57.:02:58.

but would first have to prove that public services

:02:59.:03:00.

Other EU states would also have to agree to the measure.

:03:01.:03:04.

The Prime Minister will discuss his proposal with Donald Tusk in Downing

:03:05.:03:10.

Street later today. David Cameron has asked a Labour MP

:03:11.:03:13.

to examine why black offenders are more likely to be jailed

:03:14.:03:16.

than white offenders in English The former barrister

:03:17.:03:18.

David Lammy will review the so-called "over-representation"

:03:19.:03:21.

of black and minority ethnic Launching an anti-discrimination

:03:22.:03:23.

drive, Mr Cameron also said action They will be legally required

:03:24.:03:27.

to provide a breakdown of the ethnicity of every student

:03:28.:03:33.

to whom they make an offer. Conservationists have paid tribute

:03:34.:03:38.

to a British helicopter pilot who was shot dead by elephant

:03:39.:03:41.

poachers in Tanzania while working The Friedkin Conservation Fund said

:03:42.:03:44.

Roger Gower was helping to track the criminals

:03:45.:03:49.

when they fired on his aircraft. Tennis: Andy Murray has

:03:50.:03:53.

begun his Australian Open final match against Novak

:03:54.:03:56.

Djokovic, in Melbourne. Murray's fellow Scot Gordon Reid won

:03:57.:04:00.

the wheelchair title. And his brother Jamie Murray won

:04:01.:04:02.

the doubles yesterday. It's the first time since 1906 that

:04:03.:04:07.

two brothers have made separate Just to recount the news announced

:04:08.:04:20.

in the past moment or so that Sir Terry Wogan has passed away after a

:04:21.:04:25.

short battle with cancer. So, farewell, Tel, that news is

:04:26.:04:29.

fell. A man of wits... So to the papers. The Observer, on

:04:30.:04:52.

our theme of the day, Fury over Conservative battle to protect

:04:53.:05:00.

Google's ?30 million tax haven, that is Bermuda. They say that of the ten

:05:01.:05:13.

biggest companies, six of them are paying zero corporation tax. They

:05:14.:05:20.

feature the announcement by David Cameron that universities are going

:05:21.:05:28.

to have to publish the figures of the ethnic make-up of their

:05:29.:05:31.

students. Another Google story in the Sunday Mirror, Google gets paid

:05:32.:05:36.

to help collect our taxes. They are cross about that. We don't normally

:05:37.:05:43.

show the Sunday Times Magazine but that is about the tragedy affecting

:05:44.:05:48.

Sir David Frost's family and we will be talking about that immediately

:05:49.:05:55.

after the newspapers. So, Kate, Google everywhere today. Everywhere.

:05:56.:06:00.

The Observer are furious about the Google moving funds around the world

:06:01.:06:03.

and they are accusing them of avoiding corporation tax. I think

:06:04.:06:07.

what I'm most surprised about as the story develops is how many people

:06:08.:06:12.

think this is a stitch up. Age MRC do not go into those talks with

:06:13.:06:15.

Google to try to let them off the hook. They are trying to get as much

:06:16.:06:20.

money out of them as possible. But legally in the UK we don't tax

:06:21.:06:27.

revenue, we tax profit. To me the Google story isn't a question of

:06:28.:06:30.

whether or not they are legally within the law, it looks like they

:06:31.:06:35.

are, the question is whether or not corporation tax is how we should be

:06:36.:06:39.

taxing corporations altogether. And whether it is fair to those hundreds

:06:40.:06:43.

of thousands of companies who can't go to rage MRC for private meetings

:06:44.:06:50.

and fix their own tax breaks. Absolutely, it means they can't be

:06:51.:06:56.

as competitive, it's true. We did a research paper two years ago and we

:06:57.:07:00.

found that corporation tax is really a 60% stealth tax on the worker.

:07:01.:07:08.

It's possible we need to look away to maybe taxing corporate sales or

:07:09.:07:13.

something else. All taxes in the end come out of people's pockets, so I

:07:14.:07:17.

don't think it's a sensible point to make. I picked out the Sunday Times

:07:18.:07:23.

which actually says that six of the top ten biggest companies in the UK

:07:24.:07:30.

do not pay corporation tax. BP, Vodafone, AstraZeneca, none of them

:07:31.:07:35.

paid corporation tax. We know they did what they ought to have done,

:07:36.:07:40.

people have been saying that, but the truth is that we don't. One of

:07:41.:07:44.

the real changes I've been campaigning on for a long time and I

:07:45.:07:49.

think it's imperative is that we've got to open these negotiations

:07:50.:07:52.

between the large corporations and HMRC to public scrutiny. I would

:07:53.:07:59.

take the FTSE top hundred and say they are all publicly quoted

:08:00.:08:05.

companies, we no longer have the taxpayer confidentiality, we really

:08:06.:08:08.

open it to public account, then we will be able to see if they are

:08:09.:08:12.

doing the right thing. I don't think they are. I think getting away with

:08:13.:08:16.

paying no tax when it's clear you have economic activity here in the

:08:17.:08:20.

UK, you're making profits off that and this is a profits -based tax and

:08:21.:08:24.

everyone feels that is wrong. The big problem is, what is a prophet

:08:25.:08:28.

and how much value added has there been in this country? That is a very

:08:29.:08:36.

difficult, intricate problem. I would love to see so much more

:08:37.:08:41.

transparency when it comes to government spending and even

:08:42.:08:45.

negotiations like this. We live in a globalised community now and when we

:08:46.:08:49.

tax profit, even here in the UK when we are taxing the activity going on

:08:50.:08:53.

in the UK, we can't pretend that people in other countries don't

:08:54.:08:57.

deserve part of that tax. The engineers over in California coming

:08:58.:09:04.

up with Google apps, the intellectual property... I think

:09:05.:09:08.

you're being a little naive. The front page of the Observer talks

:09:09.:09:13.

about ?30 billion sitting in Bermuda, that is the profits made by

:09:14.:09:19.

Google in Europe sitting in a no tax jurisdiction. This is what makes me

:09:20.:09:24.

so cross about Google. Google claim that they don't actually sell in

:09:25.:09:28.

Britain. Who have you got on today West at the PR man. You don't have

:09:29.:09:35.

the chief executive on. Let me just say, all the whistle-blowers we had

:09:36.:09:38.

giving evidence to us two years ago demonstrated not that Google are

:09:39.:09:44.

selling into Britain from Ireland, but it's clear from them, a massive

:09:45.:09:49.

new office in King's Cross as well... Before we leave this story,

:09:50.:09:54.

you mentioned the whistle-blower, a guy called Barney Jones, not the

:09:55.:09:57.

same Barney Jones associated with this programme, he came to you with

:09:58.:10:01.

hundreds of internal e-mails and what was the essence of what that

:10:02.:10:07.

showed? That Google was marketing here in the UK and doing research

:10:08.:10:11.

here in the UK and actually invoices were at that time going out from the

:10:12.:10:16.

UK. That's why I'm convinced that HMRC has not been tough enough and

:10:17.:10:22.

the only way we will come to a consensus... Do we need a completely

:10:23.:10:26.

different system of corporate taxation? Corporation tax goes back

:10:27.:10:31.

to the 1920s, I think. If you look at this Observer today, that ?30

:10:32.:10:35.

billion sitting in Bermuda is there legally. The UK isn't going to

:10:36.:10:41.

Google to ask for it, they are going to the EU to ask for a change in the

:10:42.:10:48.

law. We must move on because we are reviewing the papers and not just

:10:49.:10:52.

talking about this. Terrible scenes in Dover, the migration crisis. This

:10:53.:10:56.

will dominate the year and many years ahead, I think. Regardless of

:10:57.:11:00.

what side of the debate you sit on, whether you're in or out, the

:11:01.:11:03.

biggest problem with this front-page story is that David Cameron is

:11:04.:11:06.

flying around Europe talking about in work benefits and here in Dover

:11:07.:11:09.

you have people sitting in prison cells and waiting to see if they

:11:10.:11:13.

will be tried for criminal or violent activity, you have 39 people

:11:14.:11:16.

in Turkey who recently died because they sank, five of them are

:11:17.:11:21.

children. The narrative doesn't match up, does it? You have violence

:11:22.:11:25.

and death, and you have David Cameron flying around talking about

:11:26.:11:34.

benefits. Ironically migration is a reason we need Europe because we

:11:35.:11:37.

have to collectively decide how we are dealing with it. Kate and I are

:11:38.:11:42.

both immigrants. I think we both understand how important it is to

:11:43.:11:48.

come to counter a country ... What gets me about the Europe debate at

:11:49.:11:55.

the moment is that it's being reduced to a debate about

:11:56.:11:59.

immigration and benefits. It's a much wider issue and it really is

:12:00.:12:02.

being driven by party political management rather than national

:12:03.:12:07.

interest. That is so wicked. On such an important issue. I would like to

:12:08.:12:13.

move to the Donald Trump story now. That is the other huge story in the

:12:14.:12:18.

last few days, Donald Trump dodged a big debate because he is too big for

:12:19.:12:23.

it now, he thinks. He claims he didn't show up because the presenter

:12:24.:12:28.

offended him last time he was on the programme, and by offended I mean

:12:29.:12:33.

she asked him factual questions about his previous comments about

:12:34.:12:40.

women. In the previous debate he got beaten up a bit by the Senator from

:12:41.:12:46.

Texas who is still trailing a bit but catching him in the polls.

:12:47.:12:54.

Tomorrow it is the Iowa primary. No one has cast a vote yet. We will see

:12:55.:13:00.

whether or not the polls at up. Just explaining, this isn't the general

:13:01.:13:04.

election we are the million with, it is Republicans, but it is

:13:05.:13:07.

Republicans who have already signed up, meeting in town halls. In the

:13:08.:13:12.

Republican and Democratic primary is you have to be a registered

:13:13.:13:14.

Republican or Democrat. We don't have a paid system, you don't have

:13:15.:13:19.

to be able to do -- you don't have to be paid to do that, but you have

:13:20.:13:24.

to go to town hall and sign yourself up. Only Republicans voting for

:13:25.:13:28.

Republicans and only Democrats voting for Democrats. Hilary Clinton

:13:29.:13:34.

is being given a run for her money by Senator Bernie Sanders in

:13:35.:13:37.

Vermont. I don't think it's because his views gain much traction, he is

:13:38.:13:42.

a very committed socialist, I think it's because he's not that likeable

:13:43.:13:45.

and the Democrats are looking for any other solution. I think this

:13:46.:13:49.

mirrors what has happened in the UK and elsewhere, it's about the

:13:50.:13:55.

outsider. It is the populist, the outsider, people going to people

:13:56.:13:59.

because they are so angry with mainstream politicians. What shocked

:14:00.:14:04.

me about this is that Trump is just such an awful character. I don't

:14:05.:14:07.

know if you have ever met him but there are number of stories in the

:14:08.:14:13.

paper, one by Selina Scott in the Daily Mail where he tried to sue

:14:14.:14:19.

choose her while she was making a film of his. " Trump is a shark, a

:14:20.:14:26.

shark has no future, just the next victim to be consumed and a shark

:14:27.:14:35.

must keep moving to live". An article by Andrew Robertson who says

:14:36.:14:38.

he sat next to his wife and mistress at the same table and said it was

:14:39.:14:44.

something that would not even have been done by the statesman who most

:14:45.:14:51.

resembles Trump in history, Benito Mussolini. The really hard question

:14:52.:14:58.

for you, is he going to get the nomination? If he does, can he

:14:59.:15:02.

become the next American president? Pundits across America have been

:15:03.:15:07.

writing him off for months and the truth is that it is possible. His

:15:08.:15:15.

future depends on his voters showing up and they are the most unlikely to

:15:16.:15:19.

show up to a cold auditorium in the dead of winter four hours to have

:15:20.:15:24.

two publicly debate Donald Trump's ideas. He's so far ahead, you're

:15:25.:15:29.

quite right talk about the Sandra 's and Clinton little battle but I

:15:30.:15:33.

think Clinton will come through, but I think on the other one Trump is so

:15:34.:15:40.

far ahead and has so captured the angry public mood, we may end up

:15:41.:15:45.

with him. We got -- he has a shot but hopefully not. So much else to

:15:46.:15:50.

talk about. Thank you both very much for that.

:15:51.:15:53.

Now to a story which features very prominently in the Sunday Times.

:15:54.:15:56.

When an apparently fit and healthy young man dies suddenly of a heart

:15:57.:15:59.

attack, the effect on his family is bound to be devastating.

:16:00.:16:02.

If it emerges that the death could - perhaps - have been prevented,

:16:03.:16:05.

the impact must surely be even worse.

:16:06.:16:08.

That's the situation faced by the family of Miles Frost,

:16:09.:16:11.

eldest son of Sir David Frost, who is in some sense

:16:12.:16:14.

still looking over us all on Sunday mornings.

:16:15.:16:17.

Miles collapsed and died while out jogging near his home last summer,

:16:18.:16:20.

And the tragedy came only two years after his father's unexpected death,

:16:21.:16:25.

Today, Miles's brothers, Wilfred and George, are going public

:16:26.:16:30.

for the first time about what happened to him.

:16:31.:16:33.

It must be a very difficult day for you. Sorry still start like this,

:16:34.:16:44.

George can you tell us what happened to your brother and your role in

:16:45.:16:49.

that? It was on a Sunday morning, and it started like any other Sunday

:16:50.:16:54.

morning. He went to do some boxing training, came back to the house and

:16:55.:16:58.

popped out for a run. He was a very fit guy. Our mother's Sunday lunch

:16:59.:17:05.

was ready at 1:30pm, the highlight of the day. Miles still wasn't home

:17:06.:17:11.

by quarter to two. I went out to look for him. On the driveway, he

:17:12.:17:19.

was there lying on the ground. There are not many things he likes more

:17:20.:17:23.

than exercise, but sunbathing was one of them. I was busy mean that's

:17:24.:17:28.

what he was doing. As I came closer it became clear that something more

:17:29.:17:33.

serious had happened. I got to him and had to do CPR and called the

:17:34.:17:38.

emergency services, who were there very quickly. About 40 minutes later

:17:39.:17:47.

we were told nothing could be done. Wilfred, the problem with Miles was

:17:48.:17:51.

a genetic heart problem. It affects one in 500 people. That's right. We

:17:52.:17:58.

didn't know at the time but he had a condition called H CM. The first

:17:59.:18:04.

couple of days afterwards you think it's a freak and random condition

:18:05.:18:07.

and nothing can be done, but it's not really, it's one in 500, 120,000

:18:08.:18:14.

people in the UK could have the condition without being aware of it.

:18:15.:18:18.

As we learnt so tragically with Miles, it can strike and lead to

:18:19.:18:23.

cardiac death at any time. When your father died it became clear that he

:18:24.:18:27.

had this condition as well, but you were never told. It didn't become

:18:28.:18:32.

clear to us, you are right. It turned out that our father had that

:18:33.:18:36.

as well. Does that mean he could have died at any time when he was

:18:37.:18:39.

running around the world interviewing Nixon? It highlights

:18:40.:18:45.

that lots of people can have it and lead normal lives, but they

:18:46.:18:48.

shouldn't be running marathons and things like that. Your dad wasn't a

:18:49.:18:53.

great marathon runner! He wasn't coming he preferred armchair

:18:54.:18:58.

exercise instead. Certainly when we knew him. But he had the condition,

:18:59.:19:03.

and it was in the postmortem but not flagged to us. We don't want to

:19:04.:19:07.

dwell on that, but it's clear the science is there, but the action

:19:08.:19:11.

isn't. The British Heart Foundation, who we partner with, estimate it

:19:12.:19:16.

will cost 1.5 million to change that and put into action the correct

:19:17.:19:21.

tests. Your messages to get the message out there to people who

:19:22.:19:24.

might have this condition but not aware of it. It might be in our

:19:25.:19:28.

family, so it doesn't to other people. Absolutely right. As a

:19:29.:19:35.

family you must be angry, presumably, that information was not

:19:36.:19:38.

passed on. Who knows what could have happened if it had been, because

:19:39.:19:43.

this condition, you do not undertake very severe exercise. We don't want

:19:44.:19:49.

to dwell on things like anger. We want to be forward-looking. It's an

:19:50.:19:56.

absolute tragedy and adds to the pain, the conditions and

:19:57.:19:59.

circumstances around it, but let's be practical and look forward and

:20:00.:20:02.

make sure other families don't have to go through this. It exemplifies

:20:03.:20:07.

the opportunity more than anything else, that something can be done.

:20:08.:20:10.

It's very straightforward as well. The science is there, it's about

:20:11.:20:14.

awareness and getting people checked. The getting out there, be

:20:15.:20:19.

optimistic and open. Your father would be very proud of you.

:20:20.:20:22.

It's been pretty benign in the wintry northern badlands

:20:23.:20:25.

Not too bad in the south and in London, but there has been action in

:20:26.:20:39.

the north. Storms everywhere. Today isn't too bad, not very pleasant,

:20:40.:20:44.

but storm Henry is on the way across the anti-, and it will reach us

:20:45.:20:48.

tomorrow evening, battering the northern parts of the UK. Batten

:20:49.:20:54.

down the hatches across Scotland, Northern Ireland. It's cloudy at the

:20:55.:20:59.

moment, a bit of a breeze with some rain coming and going through the

:21:00.:21:03.

day. A temperature contrast, cold and damp and great in the North and

:21:04.:21:10.

Scotland, and much brighter in the south, 13 or 14 degrees. Storm

:21:11.:21:14.

Henry, lots of isobars, that means first thing in the morning, the core

:21:15.:21:19.

of the storm will be some way out to sea. In the afternoon tomorrow the

:21:20.:21:24.

wind will pick up, gales across Scotland and northern areas and an

:21:25.:21:27.

amber warning from the Met office. By the time we get a Monday evening

:21:28.:21:31.

and overnight, we will have storm force winds across parts of northern

:21:32.:21:36.

Britain. And the chance we could see gusts of up to 80 mph across

:21:37.:21:40.

Scotland. It could prove disruptive and the problems could last into

:21:41.:21:41.

Tuesday morning. Last week the Government announced

:21:42.:21:48.

they'd done a tax deal with Google, one of the many American

:21:49.:21:51.

multinationals blamed for not But the ?130 million deal struck

:21:52.:21:53.

many commentators and Some have calculated it amounts

:21:54.:21:56.

to the equivalent of just 3% Is that fair on all the other

:21:57.:22:00.

businesses paying full whack, Peter Barron is Google's Vice

:22:01.:22:04.

President for Communications Just for the record, how many

:22:05.:22:16.

meetings has Google had with ministers and the HMRC in the last

:22:17.:22:22.

year? I've no idea. Many. Dust picking up on one point, you said

:22:23.:22:27.

the government announced a tax deal. We have a settlement with the HMRC.

:22:28.:22:32.

The government sets the law and the HMRC enforces it and we follow that.

:22:33.:22:36.

The government announced it and called it a great victory, that was

:22:37.:22:41.

George Osborne's phrase. I think George Osborne responded to stories

:22:42.:22:47.

in the BBC and Financial Times. What is it a tax on, your profits in the

:22:48.:22:53.

UK? This is a key point and Kate made it earlier, corporation tax is

:22:54.:22:58.

not on sales and revenues, it's on profits. Identifying profit in the

:22:59.:23:05.

UK is quite a business. That's what the discussions in the HMRC have

:23:06.:23:09.

been about. We've had a review and audit over the last six years

:23:10.:23:13.

working out what the activities, the economic activities, in the UK are.

:23:14.:23:17.

The appropriate amount is arrived at. So what was your profit in the

:23:18.:23:23.

UK over the last ten years? I can't tell you over the last ten years.

:23:24.:23:28.

That was the period of the agreement it's been estimated at ?7.2 billion.

:23:29.:23:35.

Hang on, you are talking about sales. I'm talking about profit. You

:23:36.:23:40.

are talking about profit for the overall company. That's what

:23:41.:23:45.

companies are normally taxed on. The point is, the corporation tax is

:23:46.:23:50.

levied where the economic activity that generates profits happens. The

:23:51.:23:56.

reality with Google is that the bulk of the economic activity happens in

:23:57.:23:59.

the United States. We have 17,000 software engineers in California.

:24:00.:24:07.

800 in the UK, 2300 employees in the UK, three major headquarters, a huge

:24:08.:24:12.

new Ilion pound building at King's Cross, and your average employee

:24:13.:24:18.

salary is ?106,000. Take that with a pinch of salt. It's a lot of money,

:24:19.:24:23.

people and real estate in the UK. It says that statue and permanent

:24:24.:24:29.

business in the UK, so people find it difficult to believe that ?130

:24:30.:24:39.

million over ten years isn't a fair whack. It's 130 million in

:24:40.:24:45.

additional tax, back tax from 2005 to 2015. The last reported period of

:24:46.:24:52.

18 months, we paid ?46.2 million, and an additional 130 million over

:24:53.:25:00.

the period. We have fantastic teams in the UK. Sales and marketing

:25:01.:25:04.

people, legal and finance, engineers. It's our second biggest

:25:05.:25:09.

global market. We have great teams making a contribution to the overall

:25:10.:25:13.

profits of Google. But identifying what the economic activity, and the

:25:14.:25:18.

added value of the UK is, it's a difficult business and that's what

:25:19.:25:21.

we have tried to work out with the HMRC over the year. All the

:25:22.:25:27.

discussion about so-called permanent establishment, it's not about having

:25:28.:25:30.

a big building, of course we have big buildings, we have three in

:25:31.:25:34.

London. And we are building a new one. It's not about whether we are

:25:35.:25:39.

here or not, it's about whether for tax purposes we have so-called

:25:40.:25:45.

permanent establishment. You send your tax to Ireland, why? Cast your

:25:46.:25:50.

mind back to when Google first started. It's a straightforward

:25:51.:25:55.

question. Let me explain, because you have to understand the structure

:25:56.:25:59.

of Google. It was simple when Google existed just in California and

:26:00.:26:02.

people were buying advertising from Google, and they would have

:26:03.:26:07.

contracts with Google and the tax would be paid in the United States.

:26:08.:26:11.

When we took the business International in the early 2000 is,

:26:12.:26:14.

we set up the European headquarters in Dublin, for all kinds of reasons.

:26:15.:26:22.

Governments put tax incentives in place to attract technology

:26:23.:26:25.

companies to their shores. The British government, the Dutch

:26:26.:26:31.

government, it's a common practice. When anybody buys advertising from

:26:32.:26:33.

Google in Europe, they buy it from Dublin. Google UK's relationship in

:26:34.:26:42.

that is slightly different. What Google UK does, is contract our

:26:43.:26:49.

services to the parent company, to Google Ireland. Why is that? Because

:26:50.:26:57.

we are a subsidiary. If we are in France, Germany, Italy, those

:26:58.:27:02.

Googles our subsidiaries and sell, contract their services to Google

:27:03.:27:07.

Ireland and Google incorporated. That accounts for their revenue. The

:27:08.:27:12.

revenue for Google UK, about ?1 billion. Barney Jones, your

:27:13.:27:18.

whistle-blower, said that Google UK were closing deals in large

:27:19.:27:21.

quantities in the UK, meaning they should have been taxed on them here,

:27:22.:27:26.

not in Ireland. We are talking about the period 2005 to 2014, the period

:27:27.:27:33.

of the HMRC review. Barney Jones left Google in 2006, and the

:27:34.:27:37.

business was very different. This was looked at in the course of the

:27:38.:27:43.

six-year review by HMRC. The e-mails Barney Jones gave to Margaret Hodge,

:27:44.:27:48.

and there was the interview with Barney Jones, and that was part of

:27:49.:27:52.

the review and has been dealt with in detail. Wouldn't this be easier

:27:53.:27:56.

to talk about if we let sunlight on this, if we could see the basis on

:27:57.:28:00.

which the negotiation was dealt with. Who went to who, how did the

:28:01.:28:04.

process start, but we should surely know more about the actual

:28:05.:28:07.

negotiations and how they were conducted. We operate under the

:28:08.:28:13.

principles of tax confidentiality. If you look at the accounts reported

:28:14.:28:18.

last week, you can see a bit of detail on what has been agreed. As

:28:19.:28:25.

we mentioned, there has been 130 million in terms of back tax. For

:28:26.:28:31.

the last year, 46.2 million, broken down, of which 13.8 million is under

:28:32.:28:37.

this new mechanism. George Osborne and the Treasury have been

:28:38.:28:41.

toughening up the rules. That has fed into the process. Going back to

:28:42.:28:46.

Margaret Hodge, she has campaigned on this for a long time and wants to

:28:47.:28:49.

change the way we tax things around the world. But it cuts both ways.

:28:50.:28:57.

Leaving that for one second. Is it true the ?130 million tax deal...

:28:58.:29:01.

It's not a deal, it's a settlement. It's not a deal with the government.

:29:02.:29:08.

It's not a sweetheart deal. This money is less money than Google

:29:09.:29:14.

spends on chicken for employees in its restaurants. I read that in the

:29:15.:29:17.

course of the week and I must admit that I smiled. The money goes from

:29:18.:29:24.

Ireland, ultimately to Bermuda. Tomorrow you will be announcing a 30

:29:25.:29:29.

billion pound tax mounted in Bermuda, it's so big we could almost

:29:30.:29:34.

see it from here. It's a massive amount of money for stop what

:29:35.:29:37.

proportion of that comes from the UK? What I have to say about

:29:38.:29:43.

Bermuda, and I don't have the answer at my fingertips, but I have to say

:29:44.:29:49.

about 10% of global revenues come from the UK. It's about 3 billion

:29:50.:29:54.

then? About 3 billion of British profits at in Bermuda? It's very

:29:55.:30:03.

important to make clear that the Bermuda arrangement has no bearing

:30:04.:30:06.

on the amount of tax we pay in the UK? Can that really be so? ?3

:30:07.:30:11.

billion of British profits sat in Bermuda on a low or no tax regime,

:30:12.:30:17.

and cannot not have bearing on those people who say Google is simply not

:30:18.:30:20.

paying its fair share of taxes to British society?

:30:21.:30:26.

It doesn't have a relationship with the taxes we pay in the UK. The

:30:27.:30:36.

Bermuda structure is there because of the way that America deals with

:30:37.:30:40.

its taxation of global companies, it leads to a very high incentive to

:30:41.:30:46.

keep profits... This is all about avoiding tax, we both understand

:30:47.:30:50.

that. That is the purpose of it. What do you say to all of those

:30:51.:30:54.

smaller companies, their employees or their bosses who are watching

:30:55.:30:59.

this programme saying... This is the day that people have to finalise

:31:00.:31:05.

their tax returns by," I can't go to HMRC and discuss my tax affairs, I

:31:06.:31:09.

can't get a 3% deal, it's really unfair that Google can". In the UK

:31:10.:31:17.

we paid corporation tax and there is no sweetheart deal, the same tax

:31:18.:31:22.

rate as everyone else. You keep coming back to this point about

:31:23.:31:27.

sales. We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the economic

:31:28.:31:32.

activities of Google UK. So we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20% and

:31:33.:31:41.

globally our effective tax rate over the last five years or so is round

:31:42.:31:47.

about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate and very close to the

:31:48.:31:58.

OECD average. Google's slogan was "Don't be evil". Do you think they

:31:59.:32:02.

have lived up to it? We always try to do the right thing. The reality

:32:03.:32:11.

tax matters is that the Government's laws are in place, and we follow

:32:12.:32:17.

those laws. If the laws change, and Margaret has made a good case for

:32:18.:32:21.

changing them, and the OECD process is the process of trying to figure

:32:22.:32:25.

out new ways of doing tax internationally, if the laws change

:32:26.:32:29.

of course we would follow it. This has been terribly damaging for

:32:30.:32:38.

Google, reputation wise and so on. Would you like to see a more

:32:39.:32:43.

transparent system? We would and we have spoken about this in the past.

:32:44.:32:47.

We think that the international tax system could do with reform, it has

:32:48.:32:52.

been around since the 1920s. We could do with more clarity. We would

:32:53.:32:55.

like to be seen to be paying the right amount. Peter, thank you for

:32:56.:32:57.

joining us. The systematic abuse of children

:32:58.:33:00.

by Catholic clergy in America was a scandal that really

:33:01.:33:03.

came to public attention when the Boston Globe broke

:33:04.:33:05.

the story 15 years ago. Spotlight, an Oscar-nominated

:33:06.:33:07.

film, recreates that investigation, carried out

:33:08.:33:13.

by old school reporters. Recently, I spoke to Michael Keaton

:33:14.:33:15.

who plays a good journalist caught between his Catholic faith

:33:16.:33:18.

and a Boston establishment trying We have twe stories here,

:33:19.:33:20.

a story about degenerate clergy, and a story about a bunch

:33:21.:33:26.

of lawyers turning child-abuse I wonder, in your research

:33:27.:33:30.

for this great film, what do you think makes

:33:31.:33:37.

great journalism? Tenacity, an ability to listen,

:33:38.:33:41.

determination, focus, Coincidently, if you want to be

:33:42.:33:43.

a good actor, You have to be Absolutely, and it's the distinction

:33:44.:33:50.

therefore between what's tawdry, vivid and trivial on one side,

:33:51.:33:56.

and what really matters And in this film, you are

:33:57.:33:58.

a newspaper boss at the Globe who's It's particularly difficult

:33:59.:34:04.

because Boston is a Catholic town. And therefore there is a moral

:34:05.:34:07.

problem about how far you go You have to give Catholics,

:34:08.:34:12.

some Catholics - especially younger Catholics - give them

:34:13.:34:17.

the credit in this case, Catholics exposed their own,

:34:18.:34:22.

as you can say, stood up and said, We've got cover-up stories on 70

:34:23.:34:26.

priests, but the bosses will not run it unless I come up

:34:27.:34:36.

with information from your side. Everybody knew something

:34:37.:34:39.

was going on, and nobody Yeah, I helped defend the scumbags,

:34:40.:34:53.

but that's my job, Robbie. Powerful people are people

:34:54.:35:01.

who are in positions of power, who tend to want to take advantage

:35:02.:35:09.

of people less powerful. I keep talking about what's

:35:10.:35:14.

going on, and this movie is about the power of the Boston

:35:15.:35:18.

diocese, and Cardinal Law, but it's about the institution,

:35:19.:35:25.

the Catholic Church. And we'll print that

:35:26.:35:27.

story when we get it, No, I'm not going to

:35:28.:35:44.

rush this story, Mike. If we don't rush to print,

:35:45.:35:47.

somebody else will find these Joe Quimby from The Herald

:35:48.:35:51.

was at the freaking courthouse. What?!

:35:52.:35:55.

Why are we hesitating? You mentioned the Vatican just now,

:35:56.:35:57.

I just wondered what Apparently they thought

:35:58.:36:00.

the movie was good, actually. I don't know that the Pope,

:36:01.:36:03.

who I actually like, I would be shocked if he goes

:36:04.:36:06.

after this the way he should go I don't know, they haven't come

:36:07.:36:10.

out and there hasn't In fact they thought

:36:11.:36:15.

the movie was good. Barron told us to get

:36:16.:36:20.

Law, this is Law. That's the only thing

:36:21.:36:22.

that'll put an end to this. Let's take it up to Ben

:36:23.:36:27.

and let him decide. We'll take it to Ben

:36:28.:36:30.

when I say it's time. They knew, and they let

:36:31.:36:32.

it happen, to kids. It could have been you,

:36:33.:36:39.

it could have been me, We've got to nail these scumbags,

:36:40.:36:43.

show people that nobody can get Not a priest, or a cardinal,

:36:44.:36:47.

or a freaking Pope. I can't finish without asking

:36:48.:36:51.

you about the Oscars this time. There has been this huge controversy

:36:52.:36:54.

about not enough black actors You can't discuss something

:36:55.:36:57.

like this in sound bites, But that's a tiny

:36:58.:37:03.

piece of the issue. The issue of racism

:37:04.:37:12.

is so much deeper and bigger. Let's take it on a bit

:37:13.:37:15.

in that sense. Do you think the problem with race

:37:16.:37:17.

is getting worse in America, But I would never say overall,

:37:18.:37:20.

because in some ways People talk about the South,

:37:21.:37:25.

but Boston was a really racist city. This country here has

:37:26.:37:38.

racism, plenty of it. I think it's always a situation

:37:39.:37:40.

of the disenfranchised, who has the power and who

:37:41.:37:48.

doesn't have the power? Which is what this film

:37:49.:37:51.

is about in a sense. How did the power not go and spread

:37:52.:37:53.

out, why has it not spread out? You're right, that's what this is,

:37:54.:37:59.

and even on an individual basis, it's one person's power, a priest,

:38:00.:38:02.

controlling people who don't We will be talking about power and

:38:03.:38:04.

races and later on. And Spotlight will be one of the big

:38:05.:38:20.

contenders at the Oscars It's in cinemas on

:38:21.:38:23.

general release now. We may be only hours

:38:24.:38:26.

away from the draft deal between David Cameron and the rest

:38:27.:38:28.

of the EU on the terms of the negotiation which will fire

:38:29.:38:31.

the starting gun for our in-out For those who want to leave the EU,

:38:32.:38:34.

the current polling Luke Johnson is a leading business

:38:35.:38:37.

advocate for Vote Leave - one of the competing

:38:38.:38:41.

Brexit campaigns. Before we get onto that, you've been

:38:42.:38:48.

a big critic of Google. What did you make of what Peter Barron was saying

:38:49.:38:53.

just now? I thought it was very confusing and it confirmed to me

:38:54.:38:57.

that Google organises its affairs so as to avoid tax. Considering the

:38:58.:39:01.

chairman of Google claims they operate to the highest ethical

:39:02.:39:05.

standards, I find that hypocritical. As somebody who runs many businesses

:39:06.:39:10.

in the UK paying for that corporation tax and everything, what

:39:11.:39:14.

do you think of the idea that corporation tax itself has become

:39:15.:39:18.

unfit for purpose and we need a thorough revision of business

:39:19.:39:21.

taxation in this country? I agree with that and I think our 17,000

:39:22.:39:26.

page tax code is far too long and complex, it creates these loopholes.

:39:27.:39:31.

I think the entire thing needs rethinking and corporation tax

:39:32.:39:34.

doesn't work as it's currently structured. David Cameron has his

:39:35.:39:39.

negotiations with Mr Tusk later today and the briefing is that he's

:39:40.:39:46.

trying to get an emergency brake on benefits for migrants, is it the

:39:47.:39:50.

kind of breakthrough that would make you change your mind about leaving

:39:51.:39:56.

the EU? No, I think it is relatively trivial and I think the negotiations

:39:57.:39:59.

of supposedly reforms that Cameron is attempting at the moment are

:40:00.:40:02.

effectively condescending to us because they are a device, they are

:40:03.:40:08.

not going to lead to much change and I fear it's not going to address the

:40:09.:40:13.

fundamental issues such as ending ever closer union that the EU is

:40:14.:40:18.

committed to. The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has

:40:19.:40:22.

said that leaving the EU would cause a flight of capital, causing

:40:23.:40:26.

interest rates to go up and economic chaos in this country. Why is he

:40:27.:40:32.

wrong? A few years ago when there was debate about whether we should

:40:33.:40:36.

join the euro, those who said sterling was finished and if we

:40:37.:40:41.

didn't join Britain's economy was doomed, they were utterly wrong. I

:40:42.:40:47.

think the same voices are here now and we should not talk down

:40:48.:40:51.

Britain's national interests. The city is the leading financial centre

:40:52.:40:55.

in the world. We have a great economic future just like countries

:40:56.:40:59.

nor Mike Norway and Switzerland enjoy. Are you concerned that David

:41:00.:41:04.

Cameron is trying to bounce the country into an early referendum, in

:41:05.:41:15.

June? In a way the Brexit campaign is being pushed to the side by the

:41:16.:41:19.

steam roller of the establishment. The reason we're having a referendum

:41:20.:41:23.

is because this is a democracy and I think it's important that people are

:41:24.:41:26.

informed and besides themselves whether they think the current

:41:27.:41:29.

system works, whether it's good for our economy and culture and society

:41:30.:41:34.

or whether we deserved the freedom and independence of continuing

:41:35.:41:37.

successfully outside the EU. You have said in the past one of the

:41:38.:41:41.

problems you have as an employer is that too many of your employees are

:41:42.:41:46.

amateur lawyers with an inflated sense of their own burgeoning

:41:47.:41:50.

rights. A lot of people would say to the point of the EU is that it has

:41:51.:41:54.

given workers more rights and that is a good thing. What is important

:41:55.:41:58.

in life is that people get good jobs and generally speaking the EU has

:41:59.:42:03.

been a job destruction machine. The fact that many countries in the EU

:42:04.:42:07.

have higher levels of unemployment is demonstration that the EU is not

:42:08.:42:11.

necessarily very effective at creating jobs, and this country is.

:42:12.:42:15.

We're seeing the collapse of the Schengen agreement, borders going

:42:16.:42:21.

all the way up inside the EU, do you think we're seeing the end of the

:42:22.:42:26.

EU? I think it could break up and new collaborations could then

:42:27.:42:31.

arrive. We will have to see. It is facing the possible departure of

:42:32.:42:34.

Britain and the collapse of the Schengen agreement, the biggest

:42:35.:42:38.

threats to its existence for many years. On the Brexit side there are

:42:39.:42:43.

now three competing campaigns. This is your one chance probably in your

:42:44.:42:47.

lifetime and my lifetime to get Britain out of the EU, isn't it

:42:48.:42:53.

totally depressing that the Brexit side is fighting amongst it sells?

:42:54.:43:01.

There is talk of a coup in the Dominic Cummings camp. I am merely

:43:02.:43:09.

an individual with my personal views about the economy and the EU. I

:43:10.:43:15.

think we should not get involved in the politics of which campaign is

:43:16.:43:20.

which and focus on if the EU is good for Britain or not. You've created a

:43:21.:43:25.

lot of jobs in your time through pizza express and other businesses.

:43:26.:43:30.

RU convinced that outside the EU you would be able to create more jobs

:43:31.:43:35.

than if we stayed in? I'm convinced that Britain is a very viable

:43:36.:43:40.

economy and we attract record levels of investment. We export less to the

:43:41.:43:45.

EU than they export to us. They need us and I think we will have a very

:43:46.:43:50.

viable and successful time outside the EU. To win this battle what is

:43:51.:43:56.

most important? Is it to talk about immigration and migration or our

:43:57.:44:02.

economic future outside the EU? I think all aspects matter and what is

:44:03.:44:05.

good about the referendum is that it gives a chance for both sides to set

:44:06.:44:09.

up their camps and explain to the public what the benefits and

:44:10.:44:15.

deficits of the EU are, and decide for themselves. I think democracy in

:44:16.:44:19.

action is very healthy. Back now to the big story of the day.

:44:20.:44:23.

Sajid Javid, as the Buiness Secretary, speaks for hundreds

:44:24.:44:25.

of thousands of small businesses who, unlike Google,

:44:26.:44:27.

don't get the chance to have lots of private meetings

:44:28.:44:29.

with the taxman to negotiate how much tax they'll pay.

:44:30.:44:32.

In a sense that is the central point. This is unfair to all the

:44:33.:44:39.

smaller companies who can't do what Google has done. Good morning. I

:44:40.:44:44.

speak with thousands of companies, small and medium size as well is of

:44:45.:44:47.

course large companies. There is a sense of injustice with what they

:44:48.:44:52.

seek. They look at this and say look, I don't operate multiple

:44:53.:44:55.

jurisdictions around the world, I can't shift profits around, what

:44:56.:45:00.

about me? Where is the level playing field? I share that sense of

:45:01.:45:04.

unfairness that exists. I think it is much wider than that. I think

:45:05.:45:09.

there is a concern among many people about capitalism itself. They look

:45:10.:45:12.

at companies cheating emissions tests or banks rigging Libor rates.

:45:13.:45:23.

I still believe it's the best way to raise living standards, but this is

:45:24.:45:27.

a challenge. It wasn't a glorious moment when people look at these

:45:28.:45:31.

issues but it is important to talk about what the government is doing.

:45:32.:45:36.

You were taught on about Google itself and I'm not privy to its own

:45:37.:45:42.

tax affairs, that is for HMRC, these matters are confidential, but the

:45:43.:45:46.

Government has taken a huge amount of action to deal with this kind of

:45:47.:45:47.

problem. When we see this ?30 billion tax

:45:48.:45:57.

mountain sat in Bermuda, of which 3 billion could be generated in

:45:58.:46:03.

Britain, it doesn't reflect well. On the numbers themselves, it's a

:46:04.:46:06.

complex issue, which ever large company you talk about. We don't

:46:07.:46:11.

know the details, and the viewers don't, it's for HMRC. That's part of

:46:12.:46:17.

the trouble, it is not transparent. These details deals between very

:46:18.:46:21.

powerful companies. A lot of people think that Google chance fixes a lot

:46:22.:46:26.

of this because they are so trendy, powerful and glossy, that ministers

:46:27.:46:29.

and civil servants and possibly even tax officials are slightly in awe of

:46:30.:46:34.

them. I don't think that's the case at all. Looking at the action the

:46:35.:46:40.

government has taken. Since 2010 we have posed 40 tax loopholes which

:46:41.:46:44.

has raised over ?12 billion in the last five years. We have led the way

:46:45.:46:51.

in the G20 and OECD to have more tax transparency internationally,

:46:52.:46:54.

required by signing international exchange agreements with

:46:55.:46:57.

international partners, by changing the rules. We have led the way in

:46:58.:47:00.

changing the rules and asked other countries to do so, they are doing

:47:01.:47:05.

that. These measures will bring results. Is it true, as the Observer

:47:06.:47:10.

reports this morning, that the government defends Bermuda as a tax

:47:11.:47:14.

haven? I don think that's the case at all. The British government has

:47:15.:47:20.

led the way for international tax transparency, whether it is Bermuda

:47:21.:47:24.

or any other place. We insisted on it, when George Osborne lead this

:47:25.:47:28.

issue at the G20, he made a stronger case than anyone else on this issue

:47:29.:47:32.

and we are leading the way. I do accept there is more work to do,

:47:33.:47:38.

with our international partners, and work-out more ways to stop large

:47:39.:47:41.

multinational companies from being able to shift profit so easily.

:47:42.:47:45.

There's still an incense of injustice. Was this ?130 million

:47:46.:47:53.

deal with Google a great success? The way in which it was a success is

:47:54.:47:58.

that it helps change behaviour. When other large companies look at this,

:47:59.:48:03.

and they see that HMRC, no matter how long it takes, and this

:48:04.:48:07.

particular investigation took five or six years, HMRC will not give up

:48:08.:48:10.

and they will come after you if they feel you are not paying your fair

:48:11.:48:17.

share. It doesn't feel like a reflective amount of money. But it

:48:18.:48:20.

will change behaviour and that's important as significant. We will

:48:21.:48:27.

see. Facebook, a huge company, paying ?4300 in tax in Britain this

:48:28.:48:31.

year. Extraordinary. I don't know the numbers for Facebook and Google.

:48:32.:48:36.

But it would be ridiculous. I don't know the numbers and detail.

:48:37.:48:42.

Facebook is not a small company, 4300 and something pounds last year.

:48:43.:48:46.

I think you refer to corporation tax. Remember that all these

:48:47.:48:51.

companies, Google and Facebook, they also paid VAT and national insurance

:48:52.:48:56.

and other taxes in Britain. It's unfair to say that is the only tax

:48:57.:49:00.

they paid in Britain. But you are right to point out that when it

:49:01.:49:04.

comes to corporation tax, a lot of what has been done, but nor needs to

:49:05.:49:08.

be done. Corporation tax in another story today, six of the ten biggest

:49:09.:49:13.

companies in the UK last year paid no corporation tax at all. Isn't

:49:14.:49:17.

corporation tax no longer fit for purpose? I think Nigel Lawson has

:49:18.:49:21.

said this in the last couple of days. What I think is that it is

:49:22.:49:29.

important to recognise that businesses have changed dramatically

:49:30.:49:31.

in the last couple of decades. Looking at the tax declaration

:49:32.:49:35.

treaties that Britain has with other countries, most of them have been

:49:36.:49:39.

signed in the 1920s. Well out of date. Not corporation tax, but tax

:49:40.:49:47.

treaties, so the world of business has changed dramatically. It's right

:49:48.:49:50.

that in Britain, alongside international partners, we look at

:49:51.:49:54.

ways to modernise tax so we can collect it fairly from small and

:49:55.:49:57.

large businesses alike. That's what the work we are doing is geared at,

:49:58.:50:04.

whether it's with the OECD, or at home. We have a review of business

:50:05.:50:09.

rates looking at major tax. Let's not move on to business rates, if

:50:10.:50:13.

you don't mind. What is the case against a flat rate of relatively

:50:14.:50:18.

modest sales tax, as Nigel Lawson advocates and many other countries

:50:19.:50:21.

around the world use. It can't be dodged, it is clear and transparent

:50:22.:50:26.

and everybody has to pay it. We do have a sales tax, we have VAT. It's

:50:27.:50:31.

not as though we don't have such attacks. In many ways it works, but

:50:32.:50:35.

like many countries, we have a number of different taxes. But

:50:36.:50:41.

whether it's VAT, corporation tax, business rates, whatever it is, it's

:50:42.:50:44.

important to keep them under review and decide whether they are fit for

:50:45.:50:49.

purpose. Do you think the Google row means the government has to think

:50:50.:50:52.

about business taxation more generally? The government has been

:50:53.:50:55.

thinking about business taxation since they came in in 2010, under

:50:56.:51:00.

this coalition and at the this government. That's why there have

:51:01.:51:05.

been so many changes. 40 of Labour's tax loopholes have been closed. And

:51:06.:51:11.

as the others are brought to our attention, we are addressing them.

:51:12.:51:15.

But billions are still being moved to Ireland and Bermuda. It's not an

:51:16.:51:20.

attractive picture for small businesses who can't do this

:51:21.:51:24.

themselves. That's why we have to do more work with our international

:51:25.:51:28.

partners, and I'm proud Britain is leading the way. The other big story

:51:29.:51:32.

of the day, the announcement you will make all British universities

:51:33.:51:38.

publish details of the breakdown of ethnic groups who apply and get

:51:39.:51:42.

places, and also socioeconomic groups as well. Why are you doing

:51:43.:51:49.

this? It's about racial equality. As a British person of ethnic minority

:51:50.:51:54.

background, I think Britain is the most tolerant country in the world

:51:55.:51:58.

when it comes to racial issues. But that doesn't mean to say there isn't

:51:59.:52:05.

more we can't do. More black British people in prison than in top

:52:06.:52:09.

universities. And it seems if you are a young black man, you will get

:52:10.:52:14.

a longer sentence on average for the same crime against a young white

:52:15.:52:18.

man. We need to look at that. On that particular issue I'm proud we

:52:19.:52:21.

are getting David Lammy to look at that, he is eminently qualified to

:52:22.:52:26.

look at that, not just as an MP and minister, but as a former barrister.

:52:27.:52:31.

There are still issues to deal with. When I was a young man at school, I

:52:32.:52:38.

was called lackey in the playground and was punched because of my

:52:39.:52:46.

colour. The Prime Minister needs to do more, and we are doing with this

:52:47.:52:52.

university scheme, how can we get young black people into

:52:53.:52:57.

universities. We need to do more. What's the point in making

:52:58.:53:00.

universities publish the statistics if there is no carrot or stick?

:53:01.:53:06.

Tomorrow we will have a roundtable with universities and schools to

:53:07.:53:09.

talk about the measures they are taking. Let's accept there is

:53:10.:53:14.

progress. But not enough. A number came out recently that showed that

:53:15.:53:18.

at Oxford, for example, they had 27 black men and women attend 2014 out

:53:19.:53:28.

of a total pool of thousands. It was about 1%. Oxford say they get the

:53:29.:53:34.

right people they can with the right qualifications, but the problem is

:53:35.:53:39.

with the schools. There are not enough people from working class

:53:40.:53:41.

backgrounds, white and ethnic minority backgrounds, who are

:53:42.:53:46.

getting these qualifications. I accept there is an issue. And that's

:53:47.:53:50.

why we have more reform is going through the educational system with

:53:51.:53:53.

more children going to good and outstanding schools than ever

:53:54.:53:57.

before. That's not the only reason. There's also what I call unconscious

:53:58.:54:02.

bias. I'm not saying people set out to be racist, of course not, but

:54:03.:54:05.

there will be instances where people have certain models or images in

:54:06.:54:12.

their mind. How about using phrases like a bunch of migrants? That's a

:54:13.:54:18.

separate issue about Labour's open-door immigration policy. That's

:54:19.:54:21.

not what we are talking about here, which is how can we get more black,

:54:22.:54:26.

minority and ethnic minority people into university? When I went to

:54:27.:54:31.

university, I think I noticed three or four people from ethnic minority

:54:32.:54:34.

background. There has been progress but there's more to do. In essence

:54:35.:54:39.

this is about saying that if universities publish the small

:54:40.:54:43.

numbers black people and people from working class communities get into

:54:44.:54:48.

their portals, that will so embarrassed them, there will be

:54:49.:54:53.

further change. It will help. Transparency always helps, but more

:54:54.:54:58.

measures are required. I want to sit down with universities and find out

:54:59.:55:01.

what more can be done and help them achieve that. Sajid Javid, thank you

:55:02.:55:06.

for talking to us. Over to Roger for the news headlines.

:55:07.:55:10.

It's been announced this morning that broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan has

:55:11.:55:15.

died this morning at the age of 77. His family said he had fought a

:55:16.:55:21.

short and brave battle with cancer. The BBC director-general Tony Hall

:55:22.:55:24.

described Terry Wogan as a national dress who, for 50 years, had graced

:55:25.:55:31.

to radio and television with his warmth, wit and personality. --

:55:32.:55:36.

National treasure. Millions came to feel he was their own special

:55:37.:55:41.

friend. A senior representative of Google has defended the company's

:55:42.:55:44.

tax arrangements. It recently reached an agreement with the tax

:55:45.:55:50.

authorities here to pay ?130 million in back taxes for the past ten

:55:51.:55:54.

years. The Vice President for communications and public affairs

:55:55.:55:56.

told this programme it was very difficult to identify how much

:55:57.:56:02.

profit Google makes in the UK. Corporation tax is levied where the

:56:03.:56:05.

international activity that generates profits happens. The

:56:06.:56:10.

reality with Google is that the bulk of that economic activity happens in

:56:11.:56:15.

the United States. The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock. Let's

:56:16.:56:19.

have a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme.

:56:20.:56:23.

We will be live from Bradford at ten when we ask a very simple question,

:56:24.:56:33.

do we need a British Islam? We have politicians, theologians and

:56:34.:56:35.

scholars here to debate it. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour

:56:36.:56:38.

with the Sunday Politics with guests including the Shadow

:56:39.:56:43.

Chancellor, John McDonnell. We'll leave you now

:56:44.:56:44.

with Rhiannon Giddens, from her Grammy-nominated solo

:56:45.:56:48.

album, this is Angel City.

:56:49.:56:51.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS