Browse content similar to 31/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Who are the biggest powers in today's world, global companies | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
That's at the heart of this week's bitter row over the Google tax deal. | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
Today, for the first time, we hear both sides. | :00:14. | :00:37. | |
After days of silence, Google today explains its case: | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
my guests include their Vice President for Communications | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
And the Business Secretary Sajid Javid, on that and a major challenge | :00:44. | :00:52. | |
The other big story of the week is Europe, with the Prime Minister | :00:53. | :01:02. | |
I'll be joined by one of the leading business advocates of a British Exit | :01:03. | :01:10. | |
And for journalists and everyone interested in journalism, | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
the standout film at the moment is about the Boston Globe's | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
investigation into paedophile priests. | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
I'll talk to Michael Keaton, Spotlight's star, later. | :01:20. | :01:28. | |
Plus, from North Carolina, some sublime music. | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
The gorgeous voice of Rhiannon Giddens. | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
Plus, on the papers, tormentor in chief in the Commons | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
of both Google and the BBC, Margaret Hodge, and on the eve | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
of the first Primary in the US presidential election, | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
a Republican abroad, Kate Andrews. | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
We begin with some breaking news. It has been announced that Sir Terry | :01:57. | :02:10. | |
Wogan has died after a short but brave battle with cancer. Sir Terry | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Pastore surrounded by his family. A statement from the BBC reads," | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
whilst that we understand he will be missed by many, we ask for privacy | :02:22. | :02:33. | |
at this time". That is a statement from his family. The death announced | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
in the last few moments of the broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan. | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
David Cameron is to put forward new proposals on the proposed | :02:44. | :02:45. | |
"emergency brake" for in-work benefits for EU migrants. | :02:46. | :02:54. | |
Last week, the European Commission said Britain could apply | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
an emergency brake for up to four years, | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
but would first have to prove that public services | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
Other EU states would also have to agree to the measure. | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
The Prime Minister will discuss his proposal with Donald Tusk in Downing | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
Street later today. David Cameron has asked a Labour MP | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
to examine why black offenders are more likely to be jailed | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
than white offenders in English The former barrister | :03:17. | :03:18. | |
David Lammy will review the so-called "over-representation" | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
of black and minority ethnic Launching an anti-discrimination | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
drive, Mr Cameron also said action They will be legally required | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
to provide a breakdown of the ethnicity of every student | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
to whom they make an offer. Conservationists have paid tribute | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
to a British helicopter pilot who was shot dead by elephant | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
poachers in Tanzania while working The Friedkin Conservation Fund said | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
Roger Gower was helping to track the criminals | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
when they fired on his aircraft. Tennis: Andy Murray has | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
begun his Australian Open final match against Novak | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
Djokovic, in Melbourne. Murray's fellow Scot Gordon Reid won | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
the wheelchair title. And his brother Jamie Murray won | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
the doubles yesterday. It's the first time since 1906 that | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
two brothers have made separate Just to recount the news announced | :04:08. | :04:20. | |
in the past moment or so that Sir Terry Wogan has passed away after a | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
short battle with cancer. So, farewell, Tel, that news is | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
fell. A man of wits... So to the papers. The Observer, on | :04:30. | :04:52. | |
our theme of the day, Fury over Conservative battle to protect | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
Google's ?30 million tax haven, that is Bermuda. They say that of the ten | :05:01. | :05:13. | |
biggest companies, six of them are paying zero corporation tax. They | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
feature the announcement by David Cameron that universities are going | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
to have to publish the figures of the ethnic make-up of their | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
students. Another Google story in the Sunday Mirror, Google gets paid | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
to help collect our taxes. They are cross about that. We don't normally | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
show the Sunday Times Magazine but that is about the tragedy affecting | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Sir David Frost's family and we will be talking about that immediately | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
after the newspapers. So, Kate, Google everywhere today. Everywhere. | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
The Observer are furious about the Google moving funds around the world | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
and they are accusing them of avoiding corporation tax. I think | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
what I'm most surprised about as the story develops is how many people | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
think this is a stitch up. Age MRC do not go into those talks with | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
Google to try to let them off the hook. They are trying to get as much | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
money out of them as possible. But legally in the UK we don't tax | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
revenue, we tax profit. To me the Google story isn't a question of | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
whether or not they are legally within the law, it looks like they | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
are, the question is whether or not corporation tax is how we should be | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
taxing corporations altogether. And whether it is fair to those hundreds | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
of thousands of companies who can't go to rage MRC for private meetings | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
and fix their own tax breaks. Absolutely, it means they can't be | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
as competitive, it's true. We did a research paper two years ago and we | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
found that corporation tax is really a 60% stealth tax on the worker. | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
It's possible we need to look away to maybe taxing corporate sales or | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
something else. All taxes in the end come out of people's pockets, so I | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
don't think it's a sensible point to make. I picked out the Sunday Times | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
which actually says that six of the top ten biggest companies in the UK | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
do not pay corporation tax. BP, Vodafone, AstraZeneca, none of them | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
paid corporation tax. We know they did what they ought to have done, | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
people have been saying that, but the truth is that we don't. One of | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
the real changes I've been campaigning on for a long time and I | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
think it's imperative is that we've got to open these negotiations | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
between the large corporations and HMRC to public scrutiny. I would | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
take the FTSE top hundred and say they are all publicly quoted | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
companies, we no longer have the taxpayer confidentiality, we really | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
open it to public account, then we will be able to see if they are | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
doing the right thing. I don't think they are. I think getting away with | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
paying no tax when it's clear you have economic activity here in the | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
UK, you're making profits off that and this is a profits -based tax and | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
everyone feels that is wrong. The big problem is, what is a prophet | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
and how much value added has there been in this country? That is a very | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
difficult, intricate problem. I would love to see so much more | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
transparency when it comes to government spending and even | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
negotiations like this. We live in a globalised community now and when we | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
tax profit, even here in the UK when we are taxing the activity going on | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
in the UK, we can't pretend that people in other countries don't | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
deserve part of that tax. The engineers over in California coming | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
up with Google apps, the intellectual property... I think | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
you're being a little naive. The front page of the Observer talks | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
about ?30 billion sitting in Bermuda, that is the profits made by | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
Google in Europe sitting in a no tax jurisdiction. This is what makes me | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
so cross about Google. Google claim that they don't actually sell in | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
Britain. Who have you got on today West at the PR man. You don't have | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
the chief executive on. Let me just say, all the whistle-blowers we had | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
giving evidence to us two years ago demonstrated not that Google are | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
selling into Britain from Ireland, but it's clear from them, a massive | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
new office in King's Cross as well... Before we leave this story, | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
you mentioned the whistle-blower, a guy called Barney Jones, not the | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
same Barney Jones associated with this programme, he came to you with | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
hundreds of internal e-mails and what was the essence of what that | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
showed? That Google was marketing here in the UK and doing research | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
here in the UK and actually invoices were at that time going out from the | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
UK. That's why I'm convinced that HMRC has not been tough enough and | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
the only way we will come to a consensus... Do we need a completely | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
different system of corporate taxation? Corporation tax goes back | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
to the 1920s, I think. If you look at this Observer today, that ?30 | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
billion sitting in Bermuda is there legally. The UK isn't going to | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
Google to ask for it, they are going to the EU to ask for a change in the | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
law. We must move on because we are reviewing the papers and not just | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
talking about this. Terrible scenes in Dover, the migration crisis. This | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
will dominate the year and many years ahead, I think. Regardless of | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
what side of the debate you sit on, whether you're in or out, the | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
biggest problem with this front-page story is that David Cameron is | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
flying around Europe talking about in work benefits and here in Dover | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
you have people sitting in prison cells and waiting to see if they | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
will be tried for criminal or violent activity, you have 39 people | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
in Turkey who recently died because they sank, five of them are | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
children. The narrative doesn't match up, does it? You have violence | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
and death, and you have David Cameron flying around talking about | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
benefits. Ironically migration is a reason we need Europe because we | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
have to collectively decide how we are dealing with it. Kate and I are | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
both immigrants. I think we both understand how important it is to | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
come to counter a country ... What gets me about the Europe debate at | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
the moment is that it's being reduced to a debate about | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
immigration and benefits. It's a much wider issue and it really is | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
being driven by party political management rather than national | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
interest. That is so wicked. On such an important issue. I would like to | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
move to the Donald Trump story now. That is the other huge story in the | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
last few days, Donald Trump dodged a big debate because he is too big for | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
it now, he thinks. He claims he didn't show up because the presenter | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
offended him last time he was on the programme, and by offended I mean | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
she asked him factual questions about his previous comments about | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
women. In the previous debate he got beaten up a bit by the Senator from | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
Texas who is still trailing a bit but catching him in the polls. | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
Tomorrow it is the Iowa primary. No one has cast a vote yet. We will see | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
whether or not the polls at up. Just explaining, this isn't the general | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
election we are the million with, it is Republicans, but it is | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Republicans who have already signed up, meeting in town halls. In the | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
Republican and Democratic primary is you have to be a registered | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
Republican or Democrat. We don't have a paid system, you don't have | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
to be able to do -- you don't have to be paid to do that, but you have | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
to go to town hall and sign yourself up. Only Republicans voting for | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
Republicans and only Democrats voting for Democrats. Hilary Clinton | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
is being given a run for her money by Senator Bernie Sanders in | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Vermont. I don't think it's because his views gain much traction, he is | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
a very committed socialist, I think it's because he's not that likeable | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
and the Democrats are looking for any other solution. I think this | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
mirrors what has happened in the UK and elsewhere, it's about the | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
outsider. It is the populist, the outsider, people going to people | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
because they are so angry with mainstream politicians. What shocked | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
me about this is that Trump is just such an awful character. I don't | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
know if you have ever met him but there are number of stories in the | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
paper, one by Selina Scott in the Daily Mail where he tried to sue | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
choose her while she was making a film of his. " Trump is a shark, a | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
shark has no future, just the next victim to be consumed and a shark | :14:27. | :14:35. | |
must keep moving to live". An article by Andrew Robertson who says | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
he sat next to his wife and mistress at the same table and said it was | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
something that would not even have been done by the statesman who most | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
resembles Trump in history, Benito Mussolini. The really hard question | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
for you, is he going to get the nomination? If he does, can he | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
become the next American president? Pundits across America have been | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
writing him off for months and the truth is that it is possible. His | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
future depends on his voters showing up and they are the most unlikely to | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
show up to a cold auditorium in the dead of winter four hours to have | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
two publicly debate Donald Trump's ideas. He's so far ahead, you're | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
quite right talk about the Sandra 's and Clinton little battle but I | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
think Clinton will come through, but I think on the other one Trump is so | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
far ahead and has so captured the angry public mood, we may end up | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
with him. We got -- he has a shot but hopefully not. So much else to | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
talk about. Thank you both very much for that. | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
Now to a story which features very prominently in the Sunday Times. | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
When an apparently fit and healthy young man dies suddenly of a heart | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
attack, the effect on his family is bound to be devastating. | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
If it emerges that the death could - perhaps - have been prevented, | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
the impact must surely be even worse. | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
That's the situation faced by the family of Miles Frost, | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
eldest son of Sir David Frost, who is in some sense | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
still looking over us all on Sunday mornings. | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
Miles collapsed and died while out jogging near his home last summer, | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
And the tragedy came only two years after his father's unexpected death, | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Today, Miles's brothers, Wilfred and George, are going public | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
for the first time about what happened to him. | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
It must be a very difficult day for you. Sorry still start like this, | :16:34. | :16:44. | |
George can you tell us what happened to your brother and your role in | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
that? It was on a Sunday morning, and it started like any other Sunday | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
morning. He went to do some boxing training, came back to the house and | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
popped out for a run. He was a very fit guy. Our mother's Sunday lunch | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
was ready at 1:30pm, the highlight of the day. Miles still wasn't home | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
by quarter to two. I went out to look for him. On the driveway, he | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
was there lying on the ground. There are not many things he likes more | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
than exercise, but sunbathing was one of them. I was busy mean that's | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
what he was doing. As I came closer it became clear that something more | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
serious had happened. I got to him and had to do CPR and called the | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
emergency services, who were there very quickly. About 40 minutes later | :17:39. | :17:47. | |
we were told nothing could be done. Wilfred, the problem with Miles was | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
a genetic heart problem. It affects one in 500 people. That's right. We | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
didn't know at the time but he had a condition called H CM. The first | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
couple of days afterwards you think it's a freak and random condition | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
and nothing can be done, but it's not really, it's one in 500, 120,000 | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
people in the UK could have the condition without being aware of it. | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
As we learnt so tragically with Miles, it can strike and lead to | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
cardiac death at any time. When your father died it became clear that he | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
had this condition as well, but you were never told. It didn't become | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
clear to us, you are right. It turned out that our father had that | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
as well. Does that mean he could have died at any time when he was | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
running around the world interviewing Nixon? It highlights | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
that lots of people can have it and lead normal lives, but they | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
shouldn't be running marathons and things like that. Your dad wasn't a | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
great marathon runner! He wasn't coming he preferred armchair | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
exercise instead. Certainly when we knew him. But he had the condition, | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
and it was in the postmortem but not flagged to us. We don't want to | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
dwell on that, but it's clear the science is there, but the action | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
isn't. The British Heart Foundation, who we partner with, estimate it | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
will cost 1.5 million to change that and put into action the correct | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
tests. Your messages to get the message out there to people who | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
might have this condition but not aware of it. It might be in our | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
family, so it doesn't to other people. Absolutely right. As a | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
family you must be angry, presumably, that information was not | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
passed on. Who knows what could have happened if it had been, because | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
this condition, you do not undertake very severe exercise. We don't want | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
to dwell on things like anger. We want to be forward-looking. It's an | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
absolute tragedy and adds to the pain, the conditions and | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
circumstances around it, but let's be practical and look forward and | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
make sure other families don't have to go through this. It exemplifies | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
the opportunity more than anything else, that something can be done. | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
It's very straightforward as well. The science is there, it's about | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
awareness and getting people checked. The getting out there, be | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
optimistic and open. Your father would be very proud of you. | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
It's been pretty benign in the wintry northern badlands | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
Not too bad in the south and in London, but there has been action in | :20:26. | :20:39. | |
the north. Storms everywhere. Today isn't too bad, not very pleasant, | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
but storm Henry is on the way across the anti-, and it will reach us | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
tomorrow evening, battering the northern parts of the UK. Batten | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
down the hatches across Scotland, Northern Ireland. It's cloudy at the | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
moment, a bit of a breeze with some rain coming and going through the | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
day. A temperature contrast, cold and damp and great in the North and | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
Scotland, and much brighter in the south, 13 or 14 degrees. Storm | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
Henry, lots of isobars, that means first thing in the morning, the core | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
of the storm will be some way out to sea. In the afternoon tomorrow the | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
wind will pick up, gales across Scotland and northern areas and an | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
amber warning from the Met office. By the time we get a Monday evening | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
and overnight, we will have storm force winds across parts of northern | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
Britain. And the chance we could see gusts of up to 80 mph across | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
Scotland. It could prove disruptive and the problems could last into | :21:41. | :21:41. | |
Tuesday morning. Last week the Government announced | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
they'd done a tax deal with Google, one of the many American | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
multinationals blamed for not But the ?130 million deal struck | :21:52. | :21:53. | |
many commentators and Some have calculated it amounts | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
to the equivalent of just 3% Is that fair on all the other | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
businesses paying full whack, Peter Barron is Google's Vice | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
President for Communications Just for the record, how many | :22:05. | :22:16. | |
meetings has Google had with ministers and the HMRC in the last | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
year? I've no idea. Many. Dust picking up on one point, you said | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
the government announced a tax deal. We have a settlement with the HMRC. | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
The government sets the law and the HMRC enforces it and we follow that. | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
The government announced it and called it a great victory, that was | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
George Osborne's phrase. I think George Osborne responded to stories | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
in the BBC and Financial Times. What is it a tax on, your profits in the | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
UK? This is a key point and Kate made it earlier, corporation tax is | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
not on sales and revenues, it's on profits. Identifying profit in the | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
UK is quite a business. That's what the discussions in the HMRC have | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
been about. We've had a review and audit over the last six years | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
working out what the activities, the economic activities, in the UK are. | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
The appropriate amount is arrived at. So what was your profit in the | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
UK over the last ten years? I can't tell you over the last ten years. | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
That was the period of the agreement it's been estimated at ?7.2 billion. | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
Hang on, you are talking about sales. I'm talking about profit. You | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
are talking about profit for the overall company. That's what | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
companies are normally taxed on. The point is, the corporation tax is | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
levied where the economic activity that generates profits happens. The | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
reality with Google is that the bulk of the economic activity happens in | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
the United States. We have 17,000 software engineers in California. | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
800 in the UK, 2300 employees in the UK, three major headquarters, a huge | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
new Ilion pound building at King's Cross, and your average employee | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
salary is ?106,000. Take that with a pinch of salt. It's a lot of money, | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
people and real estate in the UK. It says that statue and permanent | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
business in the UK, so people find it difficult to believe that ?130 | :24:30. | :24:39. | |
million over ten years isn't a fair whack. It's 130 million in | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
additional tax, back tax from 2005 to 2015. The last reported period of | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
18 months, we paid ?46.2 million, and an additional 130 million over | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
the period. We have fantastic teams in the UK. Sales and marketing | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
people, legal and finance, engineers. It's our second biggest | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
global market. We have great teams making a contribution to the overall | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
profits of Google. But identifying what the economic activity, and the | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
added value of the UK is, it's a difficult business and that's what | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
we have tried to work out with the HMRC over the year. All the | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
discussion about so-called permanent establishment, it's not about having | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
a big building, of course we have big buildings, we have three in | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
London. And we are building a new one. It's not about whether we are | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
here or not, it's about whether for tax purposes we have so-called | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
permanent establishment. You send your tax to Ireland, why? Cast your | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
mind back to when Google first started. It's a straightforward | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
question. Let me explain, because you have to understand the structure | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
of Google. It was simple when Google existed just in California and | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
people were buying advertising from Google, and they would have | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
contracts with Google and the tax would be paid in the United States. | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
When we took the business International in the early 2000 is, | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
we set up the European headquarters in Dublin, for all kinds of reasons. | :26:15. | :26:22. | |
Governments put tax incentives in place to attract technology | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
companies to their shores. The British government, the Dutch | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
government, it's a common practice. When anybody buys advertising from | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
Google in Europe, they buy it from Dublin. Google UK's relationship in | :26:34. | :26:42. | |
that is slightly different. What Google UK does, is contract our | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
services to the parent company, to Google Ireland. Why is that? Because | :26:50. | :26:57. | |
we are a subsidiary. If we are in France, Germany, Italy, those | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
Googles our subsidiaries and sell, contract their services to Google | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
Ireland and Google incorporated. That accounts for their revenue. The | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
revenue for Google UK, about ?1 billion. Barney Jones, your | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
whistle-blower, said that Google UK were closing deals in large | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
quantities in the UK, meaning they should have been taxed on them here, | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
not in Ireland. We are talking about the period 2005 to 2014, the period | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
of the HMRC review. Barney Jones left Google in 2006, and the | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
business was very different. This was looked at in the course of the | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
six-year review by HMRC. The e-mails Barney Jones gave to Margaret Hodge, | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
and there was the interview with Barney Jones, and that was part of | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
the review and has been dealt with in detail. Wouldn't this be easier | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
to talk about if we let sunlight on this, if we could see the basis on | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
which the negotiation was dealt with. Who went to who, how did the | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
process start, but we should surely know more about the actual | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
negotiations and how they were conducted. We operate under the | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
principles of tax confidentiality. If you look at the accounts reported | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
last week, you can see a bit of detail on what has been agreed. As | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
we mentioned, there has been 130 million in terms of back tax. For | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
the last year, 46.2 million, broken down, of which 13.8 million is under | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
this new mechanism. George Osborne and the Treasury have been | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
toughening up the rules. That has fed into the process. Going back to | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
Margaret Hodge, she has campaigned on this for a long time and wants to | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
change the way we tax things around the world. But it cuts both ways. | :28:50. | :28:57. | |
Leaving that for one second. Is it true the ?130 million tax deal... | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
It's not a deal, it's a settlement. It's not a deal with the government. | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
It's not a sweetheart deal. This money is less money than Google | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
spends on chicken for employees in its restaurants. I read that in the | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
course of the week and I must admit that I smiled. The money goes from | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
Ireland, ultimately to Bermuda. Tomorrow you will be announcing a 30 | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
billion pound tax mounted in Bermuda, it's so big we could almost | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
see it from here. It's a massive amount of money for stop what | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
proportion of that comes from the UK? What I have to say about | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
Bermuda, and I don't have the answer at my fingertips, but I have to say | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
about 10% of global revenues come from the UK. It's about 3 billion | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
then? About 3 billion of British profits at in Bermuda? It's very | :29:55. | :30:03. | |
important to make clear that the Bermuda arrangement has no bearing | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
on the amount of tax we pay in the UK? Can that really be so? ?3 | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
billion of British profits sat in Bermuda on a low or no tax regime, | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
and cannot not have bearing on those people who say Google is simply not | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
paying its fair share of taxes to British society? | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
It doesn't have a relationship with the taxes we pay in the UK. The | :30:27. | :30:36. | |
Bermuda structure is there because of the way that America deals with | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
its taxation of global companies, it leads to a very high incentive to | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
keep profits... This is all about avoiding tax, we both understand | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
that. That is the purpose of it. What do you say to all of those | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
smaller companies, their employees or their bosses who are watching | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
this programme saying... This is the day that people have to finalise | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
their tax returns by," I can't go to HMRC and discuss my tax affairs, I | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
can't get a 3% deal, it's really unfair that Google can". In the UK | :31:10. | :31:17. | |
we paid corporation tax and there is no sweetheart deal, the same tax | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
rate as everyone else. You keep coming back to this point about | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
sales. We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the economic | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
activities of Google UK. So we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20% and | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
globally our effective tax rate over the last five years or so is round | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate and very close to the | :31:48. | :31:58. | |
OECD average. Google's slogan was "Don't be evil". Do you think they | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
have lived up to it? We always try to do the right thing. The reality | :32:03. | :32:11. | |
tax matters is that the Government's laws are in place, and we follow | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
those laws. If the laws change, and Margaret has made a good case for | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
changing them, and the OECD process is the process of trying to figure | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
out new ways of doing tax internationally, if the laws change | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
of course we would follow it. This has been terribly damaging for | :32:30. | :32:38. | |
Google, reputation wise and so on. Would you like to see a more | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
transparent system? We would and we have spoken about this in the past. | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
We think that the international tax system could do with reform, it has | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
been around since the 1920s. We could do with more clarity. We would | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
like to be seen to be paying the right amount. Peter, thank you for | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
joining us. The systematic abuse of children | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
by Catholic clergy in America was a scandal that really | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
came to public attention when the Boston Globe broke | :33:04. | :33:05. | |
the story 15 years ago. Spotlight, an Oscar-nominated | :33:06. | :33:07. | |
film, recreates that investigation, carried out | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
by old school reporters. Recently, I spoke to Michael Keaton | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
who plays a good journalist caught between his Catholic faith | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
and a Boston establishment trying We have twe stories here, | :33:19. | :33:20. | |
a story about degenerate clergy, and a story about a bunch | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
of lawyers turning child-abuse I wonder, in your research | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
for this great film, what do you think makes | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
great journalism? Tenacity, an ability to listen, | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
determination, focus, Coincidently, if you want to be | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
a good actor, You have to be Absolutely, and it's the distinction | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
therefore between what's tawdry, vivid and trivial on one side, | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
and what really matters And in this film, you are | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
a newspaper boss at the Globe who's It's particularly difficult | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
because Boston is a Catholic town. And therefore there is a moral | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
problem about how far you go You have to give Catholics, | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
some Catholics - especially younger Catholics - give them | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
the credit in this case, Catholics exposed their own, | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
as you can say, stood up and said, We've got cover-up stories on 70 | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
priests, but the bosses will not run it unless I come up | :34:27. | :34:36. | |
with information from your side. Everybody knew something | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
was going on, and nobody Yeah, I helped defend the scumbags, | :34:40. | :34:53. | |
but that's my job, Robbie. Powerful people are people | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
who are in positions of power, who tend to want to take advantage | :35:02. | :35:09. | |
of people less powerful. I keep talking about what's | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
going on, and this movie is about the power of the Boston | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
diocese, and Cardinal Law, but it's about the institution, | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
the Catholic Church. And we'll print that | :35:26. | :35:27. | |
story when we get it, No, I'm not going to | :35:28. | :35:44. | |
rush this story, Mike. If we don't rush to print, | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
somebody else will find these Joe Quimby from The Herald | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
was at the freaking courthouse. What?! | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
Why are we hesitating? You mentioned the Vatican just now, | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
I just wondered what Apparently they thought | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
the movie was good, actually. I don't know that the Pope, | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
who I actually like, I would be shocked if he goes | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
after this the way he should go I don't know, they haven't come | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
out and there hasn't In fact they thought | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
the movie was good. Barron told us to get | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
Law, this is Law. That's the only thing | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
that'll put an end to this. Let's take it up to Ben | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
and let him decide. We'll take it to Ben | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
when I say it's time. They knew, and they let | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
it happen, to kids. It could have been you, | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
it could have been me, We've got to nail these scumbags, | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
show people that nobody can get Not a priest, or a cardinal, | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
or a freaking Pope. I can't finish without asking | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
you about the Oscars this time. There has been this huge controversy | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
about not enough black actors You can't discuss something | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
like this in sound bites, But that's a tiny | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
piece of the issue. The issue of racism | :37:04. | :37:12. | |
is so much deeper and bigger. Let's take it on a bit | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
in that sense. Do you think the problem with race | :37:16. | :37:17. | |
is getting worse in America, But I would never say overall, | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
because in some ways People talk about the South, | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
but Boston was a really racist city. This country here has | :37:26. | :37:38. | |
racism, plenty of it. I think it's always a situation | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
of the disenfranchised, who has the power and who | :37:41. | :37:48. | |
doesn't have the power? Which is what this film | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
is about in a sense. How did the power not go and spread | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
out, why has it not spread out? You're right, that's what this is, | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
and even on an individual basis, it's one person's power, a priest, | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
controlling people who don't We will be talking about power and | :38:03. | :38:04. | |
races and later on. And Spotlight will be one of the big | :38:05. | :38:20. | |
contenders at the Oscars It's in cinemas on | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
general release now. We may be only hours | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
away from the draft deal between David Cameron and the rest | :38:27. | :38:28. | |
of the EU on the terms of the negotiation which will fire | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
the starting gun for our in-out For those who want to leave the EU, | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
the current polling Luke Johnson is a leading business | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
advocate for Vote Leave - one of the competing | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
Brexit campaigns. Before we get onto that, you've been | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
a big critic of Google. What did you make of what Peter Barron was saying | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
just now? I thought it was very confusing and it confirmed to me | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
that Google organises its affairs so as to avoid tax. Considering the | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
chairman of Google claims they operate to the highest ethical | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
standards, I find that hypocritical. As somebody who runs many businesses | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
in the UK paying for that corporation tax and everything, what | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
do you think of the idea that corporation tax itself has become | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
unfit for purpose and we need a thorough revision of business | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
taxation in this country? I agree with that and I think our 17,000 | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
page tax code is far too long and complex, it creates these loopholes. | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
I think the entire thing needs rethinking and corporation tax | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
doesn't work as it's currently structured. David Cameron has his | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
negotiations with Mr Tusk later today and the briefing is that he's | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
trying to get an emergency brake on benefits for migrants, is it the | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
kind of breakthrough that would make you change your mind about leaving | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
the EU? No, I think it is relatively trivial and I think the negotiations | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
of supposedly reforms that Cameron is attempting at the moment are | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
effectively condescending to us because they are a device, they are | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
not going to lead to much change and I fear it's not going to address the | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
fundamental issues such as ending ever closer union that the EU is | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
committed to. The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
said that leaving the EU would cause a flight of capital, causing | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
interest rates to go up and economic chaos in this country. Why is he | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
wrong? A few years ago when there was debate about whether we should | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
join the euro, those who said sterling was finished and if we | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
didn't join Britain's economy was doomed, they were utterly wrong. I | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
think the same voices are here now and we should not talk down | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
Britain's national interests. The city is the leading financial centre | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
in the world. We have a great economic future just like countries | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
nor Mike Norway and Switzerland enjoy. Are you concerned that David | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
Cameron is trying to bounce the country into an early referendum, in | :41:05. | :41:15. | |
June? In a way the Brexit campaign is being pushed to the side by the | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
steam roller of the establishment. The reason we're having a referendum | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
is because this is a democracy and I think it's important that people are | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
informed and besides themselves whether they think the current | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
system works, whether it's good for our economy and culture and society | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
or whether we deserved the freedom and independence of continuing | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
successfully outside the EU. You have said in the past one of the | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
problems you have as an employer is that too many of your employees are | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
amateur lawyers with an inflated sense of their own burgeoning | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
rights. A lot of people would say to the point of the EU is that it has | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
given workers more rights and that is a good thing. What is important | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
in life is that people get good jobs and generally speaking the EU has | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
been a job destruction machine. The fact that many countries in the EU | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
have higher levels of unemployment is demonstration that the EU is not | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
necessarily very effective at creating jobs, and this country is. | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
We're seeing the collapse of the Schengen agreement, borders going | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
all the way up inside the EU, do you think we're seeing the end of the | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
EU? I think it could break up and new collaborations could then | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
arrive. We will have to see. It is facing the possible departure of | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
Britain and the collapse of the Schengen agreement, the biggest | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
threats to its existence for many years. On the Brexit side there are | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
now three competing campaigns. This is your one chance probably in your | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
lifetime and my lifetime to get Britain out of the EU, isn't it | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
totally depressing that the Brexit side is fighting amongst it sells? | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
There is talk of a coup in the Dominic Cummings camp. I am merely | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
an individual with my personal views about the economy and the EU. I | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
think we should not get involved in the politics of which campaign is | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
which and focus on if the EU is good for Britain or not. You've created a | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
lot of jobs in your time through pizza express and other businesses. | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
RU convinced that outside the EU you would be able to create more jobs | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
than if we stayed in? I'm convinced that Britain is a very viable | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
economy and we attract record levels of investment. We export less to the | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
EU than they export to us. They need us and I think we will have a very | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
viable and successful time outside the EU. To win this battle what is | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
most important? Is it to talk about immigration and migration or our | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
economic future outside the EU? I think all aspects matter and what is | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
good about the referendum is that it gives a chance for both sides to set | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
up their camps and explain to the public what the benefits and | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
deficits of the EU are, and decide for themselves. I think democracy in | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
action is very healthy. Back now to the big story of the day. | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
Sajid Javid, as the Buiness Secretary, speaks for hundreds | :44:24. | :44:25. | |
of thousands of small businesses who, unlike Google, | :44:26. | :44:27. | |
don't get the chance to have lots of private meetings | :44:28. | :44:29. | |
with the taxman to negotiate how much tax they'll pay. | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
In a sense that is the central point. This is unfair to all the | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
smaller companies who can't do what Google has done. Good morning. I | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
speak with thousands of companies, small and medium size as well is of | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
course large companies. There is a sense of injustice with what they | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
seek. They look at this and say look, I don't operate multiple | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
jurisdictions around the world, I can't shift profits around, what | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
about me? Where is the level playing field? I share that sense of | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
unfairness that exists. I think it is much wider than that. I think | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
there is a concern among many people about capitalism itself. They look | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
at companies cheating emissions tests or banks rigging Libor rates. | :45:13. | :45:23. | |
I still believe it's the best way to raise living standards, but this is | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
a challenge. It wasn't a glorious moment when people look at these | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
issues but it is important to talk about what the government is doing. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
You were taught on about Google itself and I'm not privy to its own | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
tax affairs, that is for HMRC, these matters are confidential, but the | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
Government has taken a huge amount of action to deal with this kind of | :45:47. | :45:47. | |
problem. When we see this ?30 billion tax | :45:48. | :45:57. | |
mountain sat in Bermuda, of which 3 billion could be generated in | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
Britain, it doesn't reflect well. On the numbers themselves, it's a | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
complex issue, which ever large company you talk about. We don't | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
know the details, and the viewers don't, it's for HMRC. That's part of | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
the trouble, it is not transparent. These details deals between very | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
powerful companies. A lot of people think that Google chance fixes a lot | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
of this because they are so trendy, powerful and glossy, that ministers | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
and civil servants and possibly even tax officials are slightly in awe of | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
them. I don't think that's the case at all. Looking at the action the | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
government has taken. Since 2010 we have posed 40 tax loopholes which | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
has raised over ?12 billion in the last five years. We have led the way | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
in the G20 and OECD to have more tax transparency internationally, | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
required by signing international exchange agreements with | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
international partners, by changing the rules. We have led the way in | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
changing the rules and asked other countries to do so, they are doing | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
that. These measures will bring results. Is it true, as the Observer | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
reports this morning, that the government defends Bermuda as a tax | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
haven? I don think that's the case at all. The British government has | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
led the way for international tax transparency, whether it is Bermuda | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
or any other place. We insisted on it, when George Osborne lead this | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
issue at the G20, he made a stronger case than anyone else on this issue | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
and we are leading the way. I do accept there is more work to do, | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
with our international partners, and work-out more ways to stop large | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
multinational companies from being able to shift profit so easily. | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
There's still an incense of injustice. Was this ?130 million | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
deal with Google a great success? The way in which it was a success is | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
that it helps change behaviour. When other large companies look at this, | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
and they see that HMRC, no matter how long it takes, and this | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
particular investigation took five or six years, HMRC will not give up | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
and they will come after you if they feel you are not paying your fair | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
share. It doesn't feel like a reflective amount of money. But it | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
will change behaviour and that's important as significant. We will | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
see. Facebook, a huge company, paying ?4300 in tax in Britain this | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
year. Extraordinary. I don't know the numbers for Facebook and Google. | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
But it would be ridiculous. I don't know the numbers and detail. | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
Facebook is not a small company, 4300 and something pounds last year. | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
I think you refer to corporation tax. Remember that all these | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
companies, Google and Facebook, they also paid VAT and national insurance | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
and other taxes in Britain. It's unfair to say that is the only tax | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
they paid in Britain. But you are right to point out that when it | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
comes to corporation tax, a lot of what has been done, but nor needs to | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
be done. Corporation tax in another story today, six of the ten biggest | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
companies in the UK last year paid no corporation tax at all. Isn't | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
corporation tax no longer fit for purpose? I think Nigel Lawson has | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
said this in the last couple of days. What I think is that it is | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
important to recognise that businesses have changed dramatically | :49:30. | :49:31. | |
in the last couple of decades. Looking at the tax declaration | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
treaties that Britain has with other countries, most of them have been | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
signed in the 1920s. Well out of date. Not corporation tax, but tax | :49:40. | :49:47. | |
treaties, so the world of business has changed dramatically. It's right | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
that in Britain, alongside international partners, we look at | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
ways to modernise tax so we can collect it fairly from small and | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
large businesses alike. That's what the work we are doing is geared at, | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
whether it's with the OECD, or at home. We have a review of business | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
rates looking at major tax. Let's not move on to business rates, if | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
you don't mind. What is the case against a flat rate of relatively | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
modest sales tax, as Nigel Lawson advocates and many other countries | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
around the world use. It can't be dodged, it is clear and transparent | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
and everybody has to pay it. We do have a sales tax, we have VAT. It's | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
not as though we don't have such attacks. In many ways it works, but | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
like many countries, we have a number of different taxes. But | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
whether it's VAT, corporation tax, business rates, whatever it is, it's | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
important to keep them under review and decide whether they are fit for | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
purpose. Do you think the Google row means the government has to think | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
about business taxation more generally? The government has been | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
thinking about business taxation since they came in in 2010, under | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
this coalition and at the this government. That's why there have | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
been so many changes. 40 of Labour's tax loopholes have been closed. And | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
as the others are brought to our attention, we are addressing them. | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
But billions are still being moved to Ireland and Bermuda. It's not an | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
attractive picture for small businesses who can't do this | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
themselves. That's why we have to do more work with our international | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
partners, and I'm proud Britain is leading the way. The other big story | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
of the day, the announcement you will make all British universities | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
publish details of the breakdown of ethnic groups who apply and get | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
places, and also socioeconomic groups as well. Why are you doing | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
this? It's about racial equality. As a British person of ethnic minority | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
background, I think Britain is the most tolerant country in the world | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
when it comes to racial issues. But that doesn't mean to say there isn't | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
more we can't do. More black British people in prison than in top | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
universities. And it seems if you are a young black man, you will get | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
a longer sentence on average for the same crime against a young white | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
man. We need to look at that. On that particular issue I'm proud we | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
are getting David Lammy to look at that, he is eminently qualified to | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
look at that, not just as an MP and minister, but as a former barrister. | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
There are still issues to deal with. When I was a young man at school, I | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
was called lackey in the playground and was punched because of my | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
colour. The Prime Minister needs to do more, and we are doing with this | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
university scheme, how can we get young black people into | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
universities. We need to do more. What's the point in making | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
universities publish the statistics if there is no carrot or stick? | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
Tomorrow we will have a roundtable with universities and schools to | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
talk about the measures they are taking. Let's accept there is | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
progress. But not enough. A number came out recently that showed that | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
at Oxford, for example, they had 27 black men and women attend 2014 out | :53:19. | :53:28. | |
of a total pool of thousands. It was about 1%. Oxford say they get the | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
right people they can with the right qualifications, but the problem is | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
with the schools. There are not enough people from working class | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
backgrounds, white and ethnic minority backgrounds, who are | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
getting these qualifications. I accept there is an issue. And that's | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
why we have more reform is going through the educational system with | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
more children going to good and outstanding schools than ever | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
before. That's not the only reason. There's also what I call unconscious | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
bias. I'm not saying people set out to be racist, of course not, but | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
there will be instances where people have certain models or images in | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
their mind. How about using phrases like a bunch of migrants? That's a | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
separate issue about Labour's open-door immigration policy. That's | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
not what we are talking about here, which is how can we get more black, | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
minority and ethnic minority people into university? When I went to | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
university, I think I noticed three or four people from ethnic minority | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
background. There has been progress but there's more to do. In essence | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
this is about saying that if universities publish the small | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
numbers black people and people from working class communities get into | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
their portals, that will so embarrassed them, there will be | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
further change. It will help. Transparency always helps, but more | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
measures are required. I want to sit down with universities and find out | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
what more can be done and help them achieve that. Sajid Javid, thank you | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
for talking to us. Over to Roger for the news headlines. | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
It's been announced this morning that broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan has | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
died this morning at the age of 77. His family said he had fought a | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
short and brave battle with cancer. The BBC director-general Tony Hall | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
described Terry Wogan as a national dress who, for 50 years, had graced | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
to radio and television with his warmth, wit and personality. -- | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
National treasure. Millions came to feel he was their own special | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
friend. A senior representative of Google has defended the company's | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
tax arrangements. It recently reached an agreement with the tax | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
authorities here to pay ?130 million in back taxes for the past ten | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
years. The Vice President for communications and public affairs | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
told this programme it was very difficult to identify how much | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
profit Google makes in the UK. Corporation tax is levied where the | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
international activity that generates profits happens. The | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
reality with Google is that the bulk of that economic activity happens in | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
the United States. The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock. Let's | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
have a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme. | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
We will be live from Bradford at ten when we ask a very simple question, | :56:24. | :56:33. | |
do we need a British Islam? We have politicians, theologians and | :56:34. | :56:35. | |
scholars here to debate it. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
with the Sunday Politics with guests including the Shadow | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
Chancellor, John McDonnell. We'll leave you now | :56:44. | :56:44. | |
with Rhiannon Giddens, from her Grammy-nominated solo | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
album, this is Angel City. | :56:49. | :56:51. |