24/01/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

This will be, sorry everybody, a year of elections. London, Scotland,

local authorities, and the small matter of the EU referendum, we

suspect. This morning it is a election special. Nicola Sturgeon on

David Cameron and Zac Goldsmith on Zac Goldsmith.

I am joined by Scotland's First Minister, who warns the Prime

Minister that an early EU referendum would be a huge mistake. And the

Tory MP hoping to become London mayor. With the hideous Jimmy Savile

saga still in the headlines, I am also joined by the woman charged,

apparently, with keeping the BBC honest. Rona Fairhead, the chair of

the BBC Trust. And we will hear from the Hollywood veteran, Harvey

Keitel, on recapturing Youth with Michael Caine and Jane Fonda in a

sublime at new film. Plus music from one of the most emotional and

hilarious song writers of our time, John Grant. # What we've got down

here is ocean. His new album is called GRey Tickles Black Pressure

critical is apparently a Icelandic translation for midlife crisis. So

to the papers. One, the global crash in the markets and two, the fallout

from the Putin assassination story. We have Louise Cooper, the city

analyst, and Russia expert, and Applebaum. First, the news.

More than 85 million people in the United States have been

affected by a fierce snowstorm that has brought much of the east

The blizzard has dumped over a meter of snow in some places.

At least 18 people have been killed and 11 states have

Our Washington Correspondent Laura Bicker reports.

The battle has begun. As this blizzard enters its final hours,

there are attempts to try to clear up to two feet of snow from the

nation's capital. In Washington, the budget has been one of the worst in

the city's history, turning this famous view of the White House into

a white out in 24 hours. In New York, where the snow has been worst

than forecast, close try to reclaim dance-wear. All travellers banned in

the city. If you drive on the roads, you will be arrested. That is to

allow the officials to begin the clear up. When the snow eventually

stops in the early hours of Sunday morning, that is what officials will

be concentrating on. They want to get public transport back up and

running but that could take some time. They have to clear up to two

feet of snow from the city streets up and down the east coast. People

have to heed these warnings now and immediately get home. And again, the

NYPD will enforce this travel ban. 7000 flights have been delayed or

cancelled, so there will be a knock-on effect at the airports.

When the clean-up begins, it could take some time and it could be

expensive. The Road Haulage Association has

repeated its call for the French military to intervene at the Port

of Calais after what it's described Yesterday evening

hundreds of migrants broke Operations at the site were halted

for several hours while The incident followed

a demonstration in Calais in support of refugees, which attracted

two thousand people. A former Labour pollster has told

the BBC a report into why the party lost last year's election

was a whitewash and a massive missed Deborah Mattinson -

who worked with Gordon Brown and Tony Blair - says her voter

research work was ignored in the review by Dame

Margaret Beckett. Labour argues that the report had

consulted far and wide - taking input from pollsters,

pundits and academics. I feel very concerned that lessons

will not be learned. That was the vehicle, that was the moment. And if

this report does not address those issues, then I am not sure when they

will be addressed. And you can see more on the story

of Labour's election defeat, on the Sunday Politics,

later on BBC One. That's

all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines

just before ten o'clock. The Mail on Sunday has a 6-year-old

being groomed for jihad in British suburbia, it says. Lots more like

that in the papers. A terrifying story, if true, in the express

suggesting that era attacks on London, Brighton, Bath and Ipswich

have been foiled after the RAF overheard pilots talking. The Sunday

Mirror has got the Putin story again. The killers left of polonium

trail at the embassy. Everywhere they went, they left a trail of

polonium, not very clever. The Sunday Telegraph, a substantial

story saying that 40 MPs have demanded a meeting with the prime

minister because they are so worried that he is not getting enough in his

EU normalcy -- EU negotiations. Scotland on Sunday, the Tories

should cut the tax from devolved powers in Scotland. And finally, the

Observer, Britain poised to open the door to thousands of migrant

children through the so-called jungle camp in Calais. Jeremy Corbyn

saying that Britain should let in the children from that camp.

And with me to review the papers are Ann Applebaum and Louise Cooper.

I said at the beginning of the programme, one of the big stories of

the week has been the fallout from the Putin story. One of the oddities

of the story is that it is happening now. Litvinenko was murdered nine

years ago and since he has been murdered, everything we know has not

changed. Nothing in the report was new. The report illustrates the

ambivalence that Britain has about Russia. On one hand, imagine if

Al-Qaeda brought nuclear material into central London and began

poisoning people. The would be an amazing outcry. But because it was

Russia, people were careful and hands-off, and it is an illustration

of a deeper problem in Britain. Or even if this had happened in the

1970s or 1980s, there would have been huge expulsions of diplomats

and massive rows. Why the ambivalence? It is because the City

of London makes so much money from Russia and so many people are

connected to Russian money. Nobody wants to object to it. Why was

Litvinenko here? Why are so many Russians attracted the London? It is

because it is a money-laundering centre, according to one Russian

today. This is because it is a place that they can keep their money

privately and invest in housing. When I look at this story, all I

think is, you were telling me the British Secret Service have not

assassinated people in Russia? I find that these are the kinds of

games they play. I would be surprised if they have assassinated

people. I would be surprised if they have assassinated people using

polonium. Clearly not a good idea. And they clearly did not expect

that. One of the problems, to what extent could Putin go further, if he

is provoked or he feels he is on the edge of losing power? This is

connected to your financial story because one of the ways he stays in

power is by creating crises which only he can solve, like Ukraine and

Syria. The question is, if he really begins to be challenged, and the oil

price falls, then maybe he will decide that oil prices need to go up

and he needs to do something in the Persian Gulf or maybe he decides he

needs to destabilise Britain. Or try to provoke some kind of conflict.

Edward Lucas wrote a good piece in the Telegraph. He is interesting

because he wrote a book about the Cold War published ten years ago,

and that the time everybody thought it was ridiculous. But slowly, it

comes to pass. I don't think Russia can control the oil market. One of

the problems we have is that thanks to fracking, America is producing

more oil. There are stocks are at record highs. You might want to do

that, and his economy is in trouble, the ruble is collapsing and it is in

deep recession, and the oil price is at a record low. Finally an Putin,

if he is pressed against the wall, how far mighty goal in terms of

Europe? -- how far mighty goal. We don't know. We know is what he

practices, what he trains to do. When they do military training, they

practice the invasion of the Baltic states and they practice the bombing

of Poland. We now that Russian planes buzz the Swedish coast. I had

no idea there was a Swedish Russian stand-off. The rows, and a Swedish

desire to join NATO, which there has not been for many years. But at the

same time, the only way to get to the International Space Station is

the Russia. That is the ambivalence we are talking about. Less

ambivalent, but we will pick that up on the world economy. Are we on the

edge of falling off a cliff or not? A great piece in the people. I love

the cartoon. The thing about stock markets, they predict recession but

they are not always accurate. There is a great expression that says that

stock markets have predicted 25 out of the last nine recessions. They

tend to predict them when they do not happen. China has been growing

for 25 years and we have never been in a place where it has gone into a

recession when it is the second-biggest economy in the world.

There is massive uncertainty and we do not know if we can even believe

that the Chinese GDP figures this week. It is very uncertain. I guess

the argument about being too bearish, and Niall Ferguson

this in the Sunday Times, is that we are

this in the Sunday Times, is that we want to buy, driverless

this in the Sunday Times, is that we world economy and commodity

this in the Sunday Times, is that we have gone down. Inevitably, they

will bounce back up again. I remember $9 oil in 1998. We are down

to the Prix boom position. -- the position before the boom. The point

about turning points is that it is very difficult to save when they

will go down or up. It is characterised by volatility. We

don't have enough information to know but we have enough information

to worry. At the moment, we have record unemployment, lower than

before the crisis. All of that looks good. And there is a story in the

Sunday Times about George Osborne, and you kind of deal -- a new deal

on a break in certain legislation from the EU. He says he once an

early referendum because he is so worried about what is going to

happen with the economy later in the year. At that point, the political

class loses control. And that is the difficulty with a referendum. It is

very unlikely that the EU referendum will be a referendum on the EU, it

will be a referendum on how people in Britain feel about the outside

world. If the world looks scary and frightening, people will vote

against. And an extent to which the political class has a real grip on

these movements around the world. It was a good piece in the Observer on

the effect on London of the super-rich. This is connected to

what we said before. Central London has been colonised by the very rich

and that has been true for many years, but it is the intensity of it

and the degree to which prices are driven up all over the place. Of

course, it is remarkable. What is amazing is that no political party

as yet tried to capitalise. None of the mayoral candidates. We are very

worried about migrants, puree migrants, but what about the

super-rich? -- poor migrants. This is a report that accuses the

political elite of being the servants to the super-rich. If you

think about the number of businesses that spin off from this phenomenon,

art dealers, concierges, drivers, real estate, it is a lot of people.

The property industry, I was at a panel with them and clearly they

feel it is marvellous that we have a lot of foreign buyers in London, and

one of them said, we can have jobs because we look after their houses

when they are away. I said, the British economies cannot be based on

housemaids and decorators to rich Londoners. And it also means that

young people cannot afford to live in London and many things do not

come here because of that. I think that is a long-term threat to the

London economy, which is a bit of a powerhouse for the country. We're

talking about how much local politicians, as it were, have to

control global financial stories. And this story is Google and the

deal for ?130 million in back taxes. And this has been in pretty much

every paper. The left-wing papers are criticising it, saying it is not

enough, but interestingly, the right wing papers are saying the same.

Labour are talking on the National Audit Office to investigate this

agreement to pay ?130 million in back taxes. One paper has said, we

have looked at the numbers and that only looks like a 2.6 Corporation --

2.6% corporation tax rate, not bad if you can negotiate it. The bigger

picture is that Apple is negotiating with EE you over back taxes in

Ireland. And that, according to some city analysts, to be billions. And

it will make this look particularly ridiculous. -- with the EU. Nicola

Sturgeon said the crucial thing here was transparency, that we need to

see in detail how those negotiations went and how this figure was agreed

between the Treasury and Google. You mentioned Labour, there is a lot

of Labour in the papers again today. Deborah Mattinson has blasted this

review, and that looks to me like the Mail on Sunday. This is kind of

unsurprising dog bites man story. The Labour Party published in

official report about why they lost the election, then a private report

says something different. I would be surprised if any political party

wouldn't do the same. The interesting question now is what

were the issues that Labour missed? Is Jeremy Corbyn fit to address

them? The issues we have just been talking about for the last five

minutes are there. The tax and global corporations, the hollowing

out of London... These are real issues people care about and I

didn't hear Labour mobilising them in the last election campaign. One

other story you picked out was about faith schools, nagging pain. Nagging

pain, especially for those wanting to get their children into school.

Faith schools to be protected from secular campaigners, who want to ban

section of people based on religion. I believe faith schools should be

banned and we should be secular education. My children have gone to

a great school to be fair, but 50% of the places go to church of

England regulars. I am discriminated against and my children are

discriminated against because we don't play the go into the church

game, which many parents do. On that provocative note, our time is up.

Quite mild here but as you may have noticed from the news,

all of the east coast of America has been closed by snow.

Presidential contender Donald Trump has already blamed Muslims,

that is quite clearly Islamic snow, but Obama's done nothing about it,

and before you tweet this it's possible I'm lying.

Alex Deakin is in the weather studio.

You are definitely not lying about the storm and I can prove that

because here it is on the satellite picture, now clearing away from the

eastern side of the United States. Before it arrives on our shores, it

will bring wet and windy weather. Temperatures are really quite high

for the time of year. Lots of fog sitting over the hills. More

persistent rain across parts of Scotland but that is clearing away.

Overall it is a dry, cloudy day but some breaks in the cloud. We could

see some hints of sunshine, even where it is cloudy, 13, 14. In the

sunshine, 16 degrees as possible. Clearer skies over England and Wales

tonight. Tomorrow morning, Monday morning, no excuses for the weather

for getting out of bed because it really will be mild. Patchy rain for

England and Wales, more persistent rain coming into the north-west

later on. That storm system clearing away from the United States, by the

time it gets to England, all of the snow has been sucked out of it.

Many thanks for that. Now, before David Cameron made

it to Downing Street, the Tories had an election-winner

in Boris Johnson, who's coming to the end of two

terms as London Mayor, and the party's proposed replacement

is another old etonian who's pursued his own highly

independent line on issues such as the environment and

the expansion of Heathrow. Can Zac Goldsmith hold

the capital for his party? Are you a Eurosceptic? Yes, I've

always been a Eurosceptic. I believe the European institutions are

profoundly undemocratic, unaccountable and far too

centralised. I would like to see exactly the promise that was in the

manifesto on which I stood, I'd like to see the Prime Minister delivering

meaningful reforms so that the Eurosceptic... Not head-bangers, I

wouldn't describe myself as a head-banger on this issue, I would

like to see a meaningful reform package so that people like myself

could vote to stay in. I wish him well, it is not the job I envy. Liam

Fox is talking about the Prime Minister going around Europe with a

begging bowl, do you think that is accurate? He is in the middle of a

very intense negotiation. If he succeeds it will benefit the whole

of Europe, not just the UK. It is a very tough job, I think he is doing

as good a job as he is able to do at the moment but it is tough and when

he comes back people like me... And the beautiful thing about the

referendum is that it takes it out of the hands of the Prime Minister

and gives it to the people, they will take a view. So you genuinely

don't know how you will vote at the moment? No, because as a courtesy to

the Prime Minister I want to judge the final offer as a whole, and I

will take a view based on the national interest, I could be

persuaded either way. I once meaningful reform but at the same

time that's what I'm hoping the Prime Minister will achieve. Michael

Howard said he doesn't think it is likely we will get meaningful

reform, do you agree? I don't want to pre-empt it, it is tough. Every

newspaper has a different take on what he will bring back, I don't

know, I'm not part of those reforms. I wish him well. I hope he has put

the bar sufficiently high to be able to persuade people that is in our

interests. As Mayor of London, if that happens, you will be in charge

of the city with massive effect on the British economy. Goldman Sachs

has already paid a lot of money towards the end campaign at the

moment so you could find yourself potentially in confrontation of some

of your biggest financial constituents. I don't believe

business speaks with one voice on this issue. The Federation of Small

Businesses the Chamber of Commerce, the CBI all take different views.

Big business tends to be more likely to want to stay in, small businesses

are more likely to want to come out but business doesn't speak with one

voice. There have been suggestions by Goldman Sachs and spokesmen from

other companies that the city has jitters over the referendum itself

but the referendum will happen whether we like it or not. I think

it is a very good thing. Nobody has been asked their opinion since I was

born. It is happening so we have got to deal with that. It is important

that whatever we decide, it has a democratic mandate, something that

is deeply lacking in the project at the moment. You will have heard

possibly in the paper review we were talking about the effect on London

of big money pouring in. A report suggesting the London political

elite are the ushers for the super-rich and there is a lot of

money-laundering going on, what kind of Mayor Will you be in that regard?

You don't want to turn the taps off on overseas investment in London.

London has boomed for the last eight years. There is a problem that even

though people can see the success in London, they can see the building

being built... But they cannot afford to live there. That's the

problem, too many people feel they have been priced out of their own

city. Even if you earn double the average London salary, you will not

be able to afford to buy a home in London. That is an economic crisis

and that must define the next mayor and probably the one after that as

well. The challenge is taking that extraordinary success story that is

Boris Johnson and turning it into something that translates into

people's lives. Two weeks ago David Cameron was talking about

demolishing the big London Estates, my question to you is can you

guarantee that for every council house that is demolished, that there

will be at least one put back at the same kind of rent? I am very excited

by the agenda... Yes or no? I have made it clear that I want to see the

dilapidated poorly designed Estates from the 1950s regenerated, with a

commitment, first that the communities have got to agree.

Otherwise I would not want to progress with that. And that

everyone who lives in those states would be able to return to a new

home at no extra cost. So there will be enough social housing to replace

the social housing being knocked down? No one would be required to

leave their home, and I know that's possible... Have you spoken to the

Prime Minister about this? I am hoping to be mayor, then I can write

this into the London plan but he has the capacity to transform London. A

lot of your party talk about affordable housing, what exactly is

that? Legally, it is a 20% discount, but in the real world a 20% discount

on a home in Primrose Hill is not affordable. The average house price

in London is over ?400,000. That's exactly the point so a legal

definition is not all that helpful. For someone on an average London

salary who cannot afford an average price home in London, neither can

they afford a social home, a social home for which they will never

qualify is as unattainable as Roman Abramovich's mansion in Chelsea. You

have got to build for people across the income spectrum. If you don't,

we will not resolve the housing crisis in London. For London at the

moment, we could get rid of one old Etonian and replaced him with

another, what does that say about social division? I would never hide

from my background. I have never shied away from the fact I was dealt

a very good hand in life but equally my record shows I have, at every

single moment of my adult life, sought to play that hand while. I

have campaigned against injustice, as a backbench MP I have held my

government to account, and you can see that my constituency has become

a very safe Conservative seat. And you have called him divisive and

radical, is that code for Muslim? We have seen this extraordinary

revolution in Labour, we had somebody last week talking about

wildcat strikes for London, there is an extraordinary radical proposal

that Labour is putting forward and Sadiq Khan as an architect of that.

To describe him and his party as radical is a no-brainer. Thank you

for joining us. In his Hollywood career,

Harvey Keitel has worked with some truly great directors such

as Scorsese and Tarantino. He almost worked with Kubrick

and Coppola but fell out Perfect preparation then

for his latest movie in which he plays a feisty

American film director who, at the end of his career,

is hoping for one last hit I spoke to Keitel recently

about the new film, Youth, which I can for once

honestly say is fantastic, in which he and Michael Caine play

old friends coping with old age and the eternal

torments of the heart. It's a thriller, it's

an exciting movie. The music is phenomenal -

the lyrics and music were composed by David Lang,

something extraordinary. Now listen, do you see that

mountain over there? This is what you see

when you're young. And that's what you

see when you're old. It seems to me, in the end it's

a film about the kind of mystery and confusion about

simply being alive. It's a film about being alive,

it seems to me, but it's also about ageing, about male friendship

as well, these kind things. It's quite specific

about the problems of ageing Why is it called Youth

to start with, in your view? You heard me, 60 years ago you swore

you'd never slept with her out The real tragedy, and believe me,

it really is a tragedy, is that I can't even remember

if I slept with Gilda Black. Why was Reservoir Dogs

called Reservoir Dogs? It has no meaning for

Quentin whatsoever! It was like Kodak,

it was just a good phrase. So, how important in your life was,

for instance, Taxi Driver, You're right, it was a breakthrough

moment for me in many ways in terms of becoming an actor,

and I was stretching. Martin Scorsese had asked me to play

the campaign worker in that film, which Albert Brooks played,

and I asked him to let me He said to me, "Harvey,

the pimp only has five lines," at the time, before

you saw the movie. He was described as an Italian guy

stands in a doorway, So everything you saw I got

from the environment I lived I lived in Hell's

Kitchen in New York. I used to walk home

through the pimps and the girls So you have these great directors

and friends who have been very important in your career but you've

also not got on so well What was the problem

with Kubrick and Eyes Wide Shut? Mr Kubrick did some things

I objected to. I didn't like it, I thought

it was disrespectful and I won't be And if any actor can help it,

they should help it. You don't want to get

fired, but I was. OK, so this was obviously

an immense project, Youth. One of the weird things about Youth,

as somebody watching the film, is the number of people popping up,

you get Paloma Faith suddenly appears, you get Maradona,

not looking his greatest I have to say, and you get Jane Fonda

who appears as this great muse I don't owe anybody

anything, I did it myself. And gives him the most withering

treatment right at the end of the film, that must have been

an extraordinary scene to do. The entire script was

extraordinary for me to do. It was kind of story

you look for in a novel. he gave me a lot of freedom,

and that was something I needed. And how about your off-screen

relationship with Michael Caine? Because the two of you on screen

have this fantastic, warm, but slightly

barbed friendship. People keep thinking and Michael

keeps saying we didn't know each other, but when we met we discovered

he was in the British Army, I was in the American Marines,

probably two of the rare actors that We used the language of the bond,

which I can't share Mr Keitel, thank you very

much for joining us. Now, if the nationalists had won

the 2014 referendum in Scotland, their plan was for the country

to become fully independent exactly They lost of course,

yet swept the board at last year's general election, and hope to win

a third term in power in Scotland Yesterday I spoke to the SNP leader

and First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, I began by asking about one

of the most challenging issues facing her government -

the crisis in the North Sea oil So what can she do about it?

are being scrapped, So what can she do about it?

the headline date of tax that companies pay. But I think there is

work that the Scottish Government and the UK Government can do

together to support the local infrastructure in Aberdeen. The oil

and gas sector in the North Sea has a strong future if we do the right

things but we have to make sure that the infrastructure of Aberdeen is

right to support that sector over the next few years, as well as

diverse versification. At the referendum, the Scottish Government

predicted up to a ?7.9 billion revenue from North Sea oil and gas

to the Scottish Government, which is now a 13th of that. A huge hole in

the revenues. How does that change your thinking? Of the projections

are that the Scottish Government made was in line with all the

external advice. I remember David Cameron in the final few months of

the referendum campaign saying vote no for an oil bonanza. We have been

given the difficulties with oil and gas. We have to remember the real

strengths of the Scottish economy, notwithstanding the difficulties we

are seeing in the North Sea. We have higher employment in Scotland than

other parts of the UK right now. We have had three years of continuous

economic growth, the longest continuous periods in the lifetime

of the Scottish Parliament. Employment levels at record highs,

higher than the prerecession peak. If you knew that ?7 billion of

revenue, that has to be made up somehow. How are you going to make

it up? Our growth in onshore revenue over the next few years is expected

to outstrip the decline in the offshore revenues. Even the most

pessimistic projections will fall every year over the rest of the

decade. It is a point that is often lost, the case for independence. I

take some responsibility for not getting this argument across during

the referendum campaign. The case for Scotland as a strong,

independent country was never based on oil. Nonetheless, you were

talking about a second oil boom, which has not exactly happened. What

I'm saying is our projections were not out of line with external

projections. Let's hear more about what the UK Government that wanted

to keep believers that affect the North Sea in their hands, what they

are going to do. I hope that in the next few days we hear positive news

about support for the North Sea and the deal for Aberdeen. Speaking of

David Cameron, you have been negotiating with him about the

Scotland Bill and greater powers for Scotland. I was that going? The new

powers in the Scotland Bill do not go anywhere near as far as I would

like. I do not think they go as far as was promised during the

referendum campaign but they are powers that I would rather have then

not have. In parallel, we are negotiating the fiscal framework

that goes around that. I much money you have got. To take into account

the new tax and spending powers. These negotiations are ongoing. If

we are going to get these new powers in place, the negotiation has got to

conclude by the middle of February. Time is short. The clock is ticking.

And there is a long distance still to travel. The Scottish Government

will be busting a gut to try to get a deal. We will need to see more

movement, significantly more movement from the UK Government than

we have seen so far. If we do not get that, I will not

sign up to something that is unfair to Scotland. I am not asking for

special favours or special treatment, I am simply asking for

fairness. I will not agree to something that does not deliver

that. David Cameron should be under no illusions about that. Another big

political events could be the EU referendum. If the country votes to

leave the EU, if we get a break set, with that trigger a further Scottish

independence referendum. -- a Brexit. If Scotland faces being

taken out of the EU when we do not want to be, I think it is highly

likely that would trigger an overwhelming demand for a second

Scottish referendum on independence. The Democratic outrage has been

taken out of Europe -- of being taken out of Europe against our will

would make that inevitable. If we do votes to leave, there will be lots

of questions about what happens next, negotiations and staff to sort

out. In that period, we could have a Scottish referendum? That would be

bringing in political meltdown in terms of our institutions. I do not

want that situation to arise. I am not taking a Machiavellian view

about this where I want to engineer that scenario because it would lead

to a second independence referendum. I will argue for Scotland to votes

to stay in the EU and I will argue, if people in the UK care to listen,

I will argue that the UK as a whole should vote to stay in the EU. It is

suggested that David Cameron wants to hold the referendum on June the

23rd. Is that a problem for the SNP? It would be a mistake for David

Cameron. The Foreign Secretary was injured last week and I said the

same to him directly. Two reasons I will not be in fear -- in favour of

a June referendum, it might be deemed as selfish, but the Scottish

election is in May. I think to have a referendum campaign starting in

parallel would be disrespectful to those elections. You still have

seven weeks after it. But given the statutory campaign period, you would

undoubtedly start to confuse those issues. The second reason, I think

it would be better for David Cameron to leave more time between if he

gets a deal at the February European Council, to leave more time between

that deal at the point of the decision. One of the problems I see

for the in campaign is that as far as David Cameron is concerned, it is

very focused on these narrow issues of free negotiation when in actual

fact, if the campaign is going to fail, this will have to become a

positive, principled campaign about why it is better for the UK to stay

within the European Union. It needs to become a yes campaign. While

there are differences between the Scottish campaign and a European

referendum, there are definitely analogies. If the in campaign

behaves the way the no campaign behaved during the referendum, I

fear that they will lose. The two campaigns started miles apart in the

polls in Scotland, and we had a negative... You call that project

fear. They almost lost because of that negative campaign. In the

referendum, the two campaigns are much closer to start with and if the

in campaign falls into the trap of the no campaign, I feel it will

lose. Many people looking at the electoral system across the UK think

it is almost impossible for Labour to win the next election with a

majority at Westminster. One way through that might be some grand

alliance with the SNP, if the Labour Party came to you and said that we

have genuinely gone through a change of heart, a change of soul, and we

are genuinely like in favour of Scottish home rule, is there any

kind of negotiation you could have? -- genuinely in favour. Before the

election, the SNP said we wanted to be part of a Progressive Alliance

and it was Ed Miliband who turned his back on that. I think he could

have done better if they had handled that issue differently. But if there

was a change of heart? I don't think Labour is credible in any sense at

this point but I don't think that is for me to sort out. But they agree

with you a lot of issues including austerity and taxation. All of those

agendas, but not Trident. I wonder what you made of the suggestion that

you could keep Trident submarines but not have nuclear missiles on

them. I think it was ridiculous and it was a sign of just how torturous

these debates within the Labour Party are becoming. I agree with

Jeremy Corbyn, I am not in favour of the renewal of Trident. We might

have a vote on that in the House of Commons sooner rather than later and

I think the challenge to Jeremy Corbyn is, can he get his party into

the position he wants them to be in so that we can have any chance at

all of stopping the renewal of Trident. For Labour to sit on the

fence on this issue or have a free vote on this issue will leave them

without a shred of credibility. On this issue, I hope Jeremy Corbyn can

stamp his authority on his party and do so quickly. There are lots of

Scottish issues we could talk about. One of the things that causes

controversy is the closure of the Forth Road Bridge for so long. There

was originally rolling maintenance and repairs and it was taken away

and moved to other departments. That was a bad mistake, wasn't it? All of

the essential maintenance that was required to be done was done, and

the disrepair, the problem with the bridge, and there is a Parliamentary

enquiry into this right now that is ongoing, but the problem that

occurred on the Forth Road Bridge was something that was unforeseen

and unforeseeable. There are engineers that say it was not on the

receivable and that it was not unforeseen. -- it was not

unforeseeable. There is nothing that was proposed to be done to the Forth

Road Bridge that was not done because of budgetary issues. The key

thing of importance, that the travelling public should be aware

of, is that that bridge was fixed thanks to engineers performing

heroics over the pre-Christmas period, sometimes with difficult

weather conditions. As we speak right now, cars are trundling across

the bridge in both directions and hopefully HDV will be before long.

Something that has entertained the country greatly has been the passage

of arms between Alex Salmond and Donald Trump. Should he be banned

from Scotland? That is not my decision, perhaps thankfully. As

First Minister, I took the decision of taking away the status of global

Scott that we have given him, asking him to promote the country overseas.

It is not politic for a head of government in one country to pass

comment on an election in another country. I have every confidence

that the good sense of the American people will prevail on the question

of Donald Trump. Finally, I will be talking to Rona Fairhead, the chair

of the BBC Trust, on this programme, and I know the SNP's views on the

future of broadcasting is interesting, what is your statement

to her? If you look at the most recent audience Council figures,

something like 65% of people outside of Scotland thought that BBC news

and current affair is reflected their life. The figure was less in

Scotland. We have put forward a proposal that the BBC should have a

more federal structure with more platforms and programming in

Scotland. You have suggested a specific Scottish channel?

Absolutely. And I think that BBC Scotland would agree with that as

well. These are proposals we put forward constructively, as part of

the Charter renewal debate and I hope that the BBC and the BBC Trust

will listen to those proposals carefully. I think the BBC is an

institution that we should protect and that we should support. But I

also think the people in BBC Scotland have a right to see the BBC

reflect life in Scotland better than it has done perhaps in the past.

Nicholas Dudgeon, First Minister, thanks for talking to us. -- Nicola

Sturgeon. And so to the chair of the BBC

Trust, Rona Fairhead. 2016 is a big year for the BBC -

as negotiations get under way The Government has made clear it

expects the BBC to be managed more efficiently,

and to focus on its core role as a public service broadcaster,

and we'll discuss that. Plus, the damage to the BBC,

caused by the revelations about one its former stars,

Jimmy Savile. You heard Nicola Sturgeon, something

big will have to change in Scotland, will it not? I think the licence fee

payers have been very clear they want more portrayal, more

representation, not just in Scotland, across the nations and

regions. Does that mean more investment in Scotland in specific

terms? It means more work has been pushed out, BBC was very London

centric, now more than 50% is outside of London, that's a good

direction of travel. Moore is produced in Scotland, Wales, Salford

and around the country. What we need now is to make sure that

sustainable, but people can look at their screens and see themselves,

whether they are Scottish, from a particular age group or ethnic

group. What about a Scottish channel? We are looking at all

options right now. The important thing is the people of Scotland feel

they are portrayed. Which they clearly don't enough at the moment.

No, the statistics say something has got to be done to improve that. Yes,

we have got to improve that, however one of the glories of the BBC is

that it reaches across the UK. It allows the UK to come together. The

Scots watch Sherlock, enjoy it even though it's made in Wales, similarly

the Welsh love Shetland. Almost 90% of the Scottish people watch

channels that are across the country. So we are now on to what

the BBC should be through the charter renewal process. Do you

think it will emerge from this process is a radically different

organisation? I believe it will be an improved organisation, but not

radically changed. We have done a huge amount of work with the public,

they are very clear, extraordinary support for the BBC. They want it to

be broadly as it is, in fact 60% would want it to do more versus 10%

wanting it to do less. It is not perfect but the public are very

clear that they like the BBC, they wanted to inform, educate and

entertain but they also want to have some things change and they are very

clear what -- about what they are. They wanted to be independent...

These sound very change. -- very vague, I'm interested in specific

things. For instance is the music channel safe? People who watch

programmes... Is it a yes or no. Everything is being looked at, it is

a tough settlement but the executive will work out what it is they need

to cut, the efficiencies... The priority will be on making sure the

programmes, the stations people listen to will be protected as much

as possible and I cannot say that anything is off table. So there will

be further cuts? We have been very clear from the start that everything

will be done to improve efficiency but it is likely that some

programmes and potentially some services will be affected. That's

the nature of what has to be done but the priority will be making sure

that the programmes the public love, the sports, the news will remain

strong because the BBC is paid for by the public, that is what they

want. The Savile report, there has been a leak of it, more than 60

attacks by Savile including four rapes, horrible things going on

behind the scenes, an appalling story... I know it is in the past,

but it shows the BBC in a very bad light indeed. Yes, I am horrified.

These appalling behaviours that were allowed to pass on checked. The

victims have suffered so much, incredibly traumatic. We failed as

an institution, did we not? We failed, the BBC needed to do better.

You have got to admire the courage to come forward. Only people do that

can they understand what happened and learn the lessons. The BBC has

changed its culture and its processes, and this is one thing I

can say to you and it is really important - if Dame Janet Smith

comes with any further changes that are needed, they will be done. I

stand in front of you to say the trust will ensure the management

seat is held to the fire to make sure those changes are implemented

and as quickly as possible. Dame Janet Smith says she thinks it's

possible there could be someone in the BBC now, abusing and bullying

people. I would hang on there. You are talking about a leak of an

earlier release of the report. Out of respect of the victims, we have

got to wait until the formal report is published. Dame Janet Smith, a

very senior judge, she has got to make sure this is right, that the

evidence is right and we will make her assessment. I'm very happy once

the report is published to come back and talk about it. Let me talk about

the principle. Is it possible that even now there is a very

high-profile match regarded BBC talent behaving badly and still that

culture of deference and hostility to whistle-blowers, and a feeling

you look upwards and you are worried about what your bosses are saying

stops but? We have got to be in an environment where people are

comfortable to raise their hands and say that is not acceptable. The BBC

has put in all sorts of measures to protect children, they now have

chaperones, there are screenings Dawn of people who work with

children, they are put in a very comprehensive whistle-blowing line.

Anything we can think of that can be done is being done and that is my

assurance to you. Some people say that you should not be in charge of

the BBC Trust because of your involvement in HSBC in the past

which was involved in helping British citizens, well off people,

avoid paying tax in Switzerland, what do you say? We have said as a

bank that we accept responsibility and we have said we are deeply sorry

for any reputational damage and what happened. What we chose to do was to

stay and fight. There has been enormous change... And you knew

nothing about this at all at the time? We had independents come in

with information, this was not disclosed. Improvements have to be

made and the reason I stayed is because the board asked me to stay,

but more importantly the regulators with whom I worked did. My focus is

now on the BBC, people want it to be independent and broad and

well-managed. We have got to finish. Thank you.

Now over to Christian for the news headlines.

Scotland's First Minister has warned David Cameron that holding an early

referendum on the UK's membership of the EU would be a mistake.

Nicola Sturgeon told this programme that a June poll risked 'confusing'

elections to the devolved assemblies in Scotland,

The SNP leader also said the campaign for the UK to stay

in the EU needed to be more positive in tone than -

she claimed - the campaign against Scottish

We had a negative campaign from the no campaign and they almost lost. In

the EU referendum, the two campaigns are much closer to start with. If

the income paying falls into the trap of the no campaign, I fear it

will lose. -- be in campaign. The Conservative candidate

for London mayor said the Prime Minister had

a 'really tough job', in renegotiating the Uk's

relationship with the EU. Zac Goldsmith said

he was a euro-sceptic, but had not made up his mind

which way to vote in the referendum. But he said he hoped David Cameron

had 'set the bar sufficiently high' in terms of his demands for reform -

to persuade people that it was in the UK's interests

to stay in the EU. At ten o'clock we will be asking if

sugar should be regarded as dangerous, research on embryos, how

far should it go? And do organised religions put people off believing?

Join me again at the same time next week, when I'll be talking

to the Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron, and to businessman and campaigner

But we leave you now with the man who The Times described as one

of the best songwriters since Leonard Cohen.

From his new album, 'Grey Tickles, Black Pressure' this is John Grant,

# I want what I was promised, I'm a bit impatient

# And what is it exactly that you think that you deserve

# No more, no less, is that ridiculous

# Cos what we got down here is oceans of longing

# And guessing games, and no guarantees

# And you work so hard to be in control

# And now you're laughing at yourself because you can't let go

# Cos all we're doing is learning how to die

# Do you really think that nobody sees the fear behind your smile?

# And why do you care what anybody thinks at all?

# It's all going to the same thing in the end

# And what we got down here is oceans of longing

# And guessing games, and no guarantees

# And you work so hard to be in control

# And now you're laughing at yourself because you can't let go

As we'll be discussing, cosmologists are studying...

The way the French feel about Joan of Arc.

You sat on a windowsill and said... How old are you, Grandad?!

Shall we call the police? Obviously not.

I still carry that little caterpillar.