17/01/2016 The Andrew Marr Show


17/01/2016

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One of the biggest stories of the last year was the unpredicted,

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But, in 2016, can he really wow the country?

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As you might have guessed by now, my guests this week include

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the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, plus Nick Clegg, one of the prime

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casualties of the 2015 election, now re-emerging to fight

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So, that is two macho heart-throbs on the show already.

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We also have Leonardo DiCaprio, on the verge, at long last,

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the movie world seems to think, of getting his first Oscar.

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His new film is, amongst other things, a meditation

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And, to play us out, we are going to hear Blackbird.

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That lovely Beatles song as you have never heard it before,

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in the hands of the classical guitarist, Milos.

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And, reviewing the papers, two freelance journalists who come

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to politics from opposite ends of the spectrum.

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And Rachel Shabi, rather less on the right.

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But, first, the news with Roger Johnson.

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International sanctions against Iran have been lifted,

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almost four decades after they were first imposed.

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Last night, the UN's atomic energy watchdog formally accepted that

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Tehran has complied with demands to curtail its nuclear development.

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The head of that watchdog is travelling to Iran today

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to discuss continued nuclear monitoring.

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Our diplomatic correspondent, Bridget Kendall reports.

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The moment Iran had been waiting for.

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In Vienna, confirmation that it had done enough to curtail its nuclear

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programme, triggering a green light to lift international sanctions.

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This achievement clearly demonstrates that, with political

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will, perseverance and through multilateral diplomacy,

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we can solve the most difficult issues.

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Released from captivity for allegedly plotting

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against the Iranian state, the Washington Post reporter,

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Jason Rezaian, along with three other Iranian-American captives,

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Amir Hekmati, a former US Marine, Saeed Abedini, a religious pastor,

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as well as a fourth man, Nosratollah Khosravi-Roodsari.

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All freed in a dramatic prisoner swap with the US.

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This evening, we are reminded once again of diplomacy's power

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Well, in essence, it has scaled back much of its nuclear programme.

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It has cut back the number of centrifuges used to enrich

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It's reduced its enriched uranium stockpile, shipping out the bulk

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And it's dismantled the core of the heavy water reactor at Arak,

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replacing it with concrete so it can't be used to make

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Some sanctions will remain but, overall,

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this is a very significant milestone.

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Iran's oil can flow out again and investors can dive in,

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ending years of Iran's international isolation.

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A campaign group has been set up by pro-European Conservatives

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to make the case for Britain to stay in the EU.

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The group is being led by the former minister, Nick Herbert.

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It supports the changes to the terms of membership being negotiated

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The first of three days of national mourning have begun

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in the West African state of Burkina Faso, following an attack

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At least 29 people were killed in the siege on a hotel and a nearby

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Campaigners are welcoming the designation of 23 new marine

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conservation zones around the UK coastline.

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It's part of an extension of the country's blue belt,

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designed to protect wildlife and geological features.

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The new zones mean that around 8,000 square miles of coastline are now

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protected, although it's also led to concern over the impact

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I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

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I have chosen the Sunday Telegraph. Interesting this story has been

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given to one of the most Eurosceptic newspapers.

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And the Burkina Faso story, good coverage. Their political story is

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at the bottom, secret EU master plan, they claim to have three tiny

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little rabbits to come out of hats for that.

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The Observer newspaper on global air pollution.

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The Independent newspaper, with an interval is with Jeremy Corbyn --

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interview on people smugglers. And this headline, a shock, the

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outfit has been behind before and this could be a turning point which

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we will discuss. Julia?

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As a Eurosceptic, I am delighted but sceptical if it will be delivered if

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and when we get the referendum. We are in this situation were a lot of

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Eurosceptics have been complaining over the past weeks it is only the

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pro-Europeans in Cabinet able to say what they want. And this is fixed.

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But not effectively. There is an attempt to fix as always with the

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Conservative Party because they are in such a bind.

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Yes. I love the way the Daily Mail has put this white on black to

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emphasise how domestic the surge is. People are saying things like the

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migration crisis, economic crisis, the attacks in Cologne, have pushed

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the get out over Europe boat -- voting higher. It speaks on the

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Britain we want to be. And ideological battle between the far

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right with a particular xenophobic hard line approach to migration,

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pro-austerity. And the Progressive currents coming through Europe that

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is, do we want something more progressive, based on something

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better, on freedom of movement crucially.

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There is nothing about Europe which... No, it guarantees Labour

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wages. I am a Democrat, I believe in sovereignty accountable Government,

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that is what people are voting on. I agree with you, the EU is

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anti-democratic and 60th, bullying, pushing a pro-austerity agenda, that

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needs to change. But we should reform it for the better in a

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progressive way. Returning to the papers, the mail on

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Sunday about that, looking at potential leaders in the campaign.

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This story is reiterating what we have said on the reasons why the

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anti-Europe boat has been surging and if Boris Johnson were to join

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the campaign, then more people would want to leave Europe which cements

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the argument against. It is depressing people will decide

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based on whether they like him. I don't believe in the end they

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will. They will vote on gut instinct and what the Prime Minister brings

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from Brussels. Three relatively small rabbits, tell

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us. So small, barely worth mentioning.

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Stuff we found out a year ago, look what an amazing deal David Cameron

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has brought from Brussels, he fought so hard, the others were against

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him. Three attractively coloured guinea

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pigs. They are meaningless, having a

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status in the outer tear, parliament being sovereign. They have been told

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that 20 years Parliament is sovereign.

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David What Corbyn is joined to do is

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address this, to make society more fair and more equal, not just

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because it is a good idea, because as it turns out it is better for the

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economy, you generate more wealth. I agree with him in terms of the

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aim. I personally don't want the Government interfering with when a

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private company shares out its dividends which is what he

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announced. There is an -- another policy, where

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only a percentage of profits would be shared amongst workers.

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It is no business of Government to interfere. They should parry a fair

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wage, I am in favour of the National living wage in legally required and

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being higher. You should be able to afford your rent.

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That should make sense if wealth trickled down but it doesn't. It is

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not that, we live in a capitalist society, if people pay a fair wage

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in a capitalist society, it is no business on the Government to take a

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share of profits. It is a loaded way of putting it.

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Most companies are not paying those wages they are bound to do.

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Yes, they are. Most pay way above the living wage.

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People are supplementing their wages with tax credits. And it is not

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trickling down. Do you one a fairer society.

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Let us move on. This next story.

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Barely mentioned by Jeremy Corbyn in his speech to the party faithful.

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Many Labour members have spoken out about the duty for Jeremy Corbyn to

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back Trident. So much argument seems to be about

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jobs, the ?100 billion cost of Trident is an awful lot to spend to

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save jobs. Jobs are important. The issue is about national security and

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being a player in the world. In the 1980s when the Labour Party

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was for unilateral disarmament, that did not play well with the British

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public. Rachel, another story about the

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internal debate inside the Labour Party. I need to move things on.

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There is so much to say about Trident and the fact it is being

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turned into this sacred cow of security.

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Most defence security -- most defence officials are saying the

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best way to defend the country is not with out dented Trident. You are

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turning it into a matter of national-security.

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This came up in a Fabian Society where Jeremy Corbyn demonstrated why

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he is so popular, putting together an alternative politics that has

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resonated so much. Did you say the party massive?

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A break phrase. I don't think I invented that phrase. Party

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faithful? Let me bring you up to date!

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There is a split between the new Labour section who think that what

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the election told us was Labour needs to be more centrist and

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austerity light. The other side which supports what

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Jeremy Corbyn is saying, public support could rates this, that

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people are looking for an alternative politics. We need an

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opposition to austerity, we need popular moves like renationalisation

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of utilities, massive investment in infrastructure and public services.

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That seems to be the tussle within the Labour Party. What kind of

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Labour do we want? Don't look at Julia, you will set

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her off. I can read you both very well.

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The last story. Nothing to do with the Conservative

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Party. Blue Monday, the third Monday of January every year, a combination

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of Christmas debts, misery over the weather, back at work, the slog of

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the year ahead. The grimmest day of the year. There is very little

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scientific evidence. What science would back that up.

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How many newspaper stories are based on bogus university research? None

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at all. Hard-working journalists would never fall for that. Two

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hard-working journalists, thank you very much indeed.

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Last week, you may remember, I was begging for cold,

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Zeus, or at least the BBC weather studio, was listening.

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It is set to stay cold for much of next week as well. We have seen our

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first snowfall over many parts of Britain of the season so far, watch

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out for that because there will be ice on undertreated surfaces. There

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will be some fog patches for the south and west. It is cloudy. We

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have milder air trying to make inroads, and it is called across

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eastern areas. That rain edges into Scotland to produce snow at lower

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levels as well, and also moves into Wales. It will be a cold, frosty

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night once again. As we head into Monday day, it will be the east that

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will see the bright, cold, crisp weather. Elsewhere cloudy with

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patchy rain. Some sleet and snow, may be down to lower levels in

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Scotland. Much milder across the south-west, colder across the east.

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High pressure builds back in, so we are back to the cold overnight

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frosts and the bright sunny days. No complaints about that at all.

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Do you remember, "I agree with Nick"?

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And that hugely touching bromance in the rose garden with David

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But, get into bed with the modern Conservative Party,

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and they will kick you out of the door before breakfast.

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Nick Clegg, nothing if not resilient, plans to play a major

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role in the biggest politics of 2016, Britain's future

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Welcome. You have spent five years with the Prime Minister talking I'm

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sure a lot about Europe in private. Is there any part of you that

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prepared to lead this country out of the EU? -- any part of him? Part of

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the problem is the debate has been so much about the Conservatives

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debating with Conservatives, and at some point David Cameron will need

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to switch gear from being the leader of a slightly split party on Europe

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into the leader of the country and saying very clearly to the country

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as a whole what he wants and I hope that will happen immediately after

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this complicated renegotiation is finally complete. A lot of

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Conservatives think there is a lot of smoke and mirrors here, and in

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the end David Cameron will campaign to stay in the EU, and everything is

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being fixed towards that end, and if you think that is an accurate

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assessment? I think you would like to stay in the European Union after

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it has been reformed by his negotiations. Is the renegotiation

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done deal now? Some parts of it are substantial. What George Osborne has

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been rightly emphasising is that we need to make sure the United

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Kingdom, as the rest of the euro zone changes, that the UK is the

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largest economy in the European Union but outside of the eurozone

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those rights are properly protected. That is a substantive thing that

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needs to be flicked us part of this process. -- needs to be fixed. We

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will be hearing a lot about the dangers and perils of leaving the EU

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but there are dangers of staying as well. For instance the Turkish

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accession, are you in favour of that? I think Turkish opinion itself

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has changed dramatically. I don't think Turkish interest in becoming a

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member of the European Union is what it was when it was first mooted.

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They agree there are risks on both sides. My own view is that the

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people who really count in this referendum, namely the people who

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don't believe Russian admit -- don't believe passionately that we should

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stay or leave. Of course there are imperfections in the European Union

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as much as in our political arrangements here. I stay with

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Turkey, you called it a strategic necessity for Turkey to join at one

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point, that's another 75 million people able to work here if they so

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choose, and a 500 mile border with Syria. That's the kind of thing that

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make people think it would be safer to stay out. Turkey already has a

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very close relationship with the European Union so we trade with

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Turkey in a way we don't with many other countries already. Secondly

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there are very large numbers of Turks in Germany and elsewhere who

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moved many years ago. Thirdly, if we were to pull out of the European

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Union, the problem of people moving large distances away from conflict,

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that that somehow will go is a nonsense. But we would gain more

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control over our borders surely if we left. I question that a little

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bit. We had an arrangement with France back in 2003, such that they

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check passports and we can check people's entry into the UK on French

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soil. There's no need to reason that would necessarily continue if we

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were to pull-out of the European Union. I don't buy this idea that by

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turning our back on Europe, somehow we can wave a wand and mass

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migration will not be a problem. It will remain a problem whether we are

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or out. In an insecure world there is safety in numbers. Many people

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feel they will have to take this decision based on their views of

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Europe today, actually the decision we need to take is for what we

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believe Britain should be for our children and grandchildren. Should

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it be open or closed, or should we be isolated? For future generations,

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it is important we keep Britain's strong. You are also very keen on

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the euro, are you still keen on us joining the euro? Where you are

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wrong about that? With hindsight it is clear that joining the euro is

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not something I would advocate and it is not something that's on the

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ballot paper when it comes to the referendum. You were saying it would

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have a devastating effect on the economy unless we join this thing at

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the time, and you were wrong, so people will be thinking why should

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we listen to you now? This is completely different, it is about

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whether we should stay in a club of which we have been a member since

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the early 1970s. What I didn't anticipate and many people didn't

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frankly is that the rules that were supposed to govern entry into the

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eurozone were forged as badly as they were, for instance allowing

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entry for countries like Greece that should never have been allowed into

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the eurozone at all, but they were separate issues, and in my view

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staying in a club which gives safety in numbers is on balance better than

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the imperfections of the European Union. Nick Clegg himself, a little

:23:28.:23:35.

bit of how it has been, expelled from the golden circle of power, you

:23:36.:23:39.

have had a lot of criticism for not turning up to vote enough in the

:23:40.:23:43.

House of Commons. You have the worst voting record of any MP in 2015, why

:23:44.:23:50.

is that? In the months immediately after the general election, you're

:23:51.:23:53.

right, I didn't vote as much as I should. It was only a few weeks of

:23:54.:23:58.

voting if you take the summer holidays into account, but over the

:23:59.:24:02.

five-year Parliament I will vote more. Of course you lose

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responsibility and the authority to take decisions, which I enjoyed

:24:07.:24:10.

doing in Government, but you also gain greater freedom. You were one

:24:11.:24:16.

of the very few Liberal Democrats who thanks to Conservative health,

:24:17.:24:20.

kept your seat. Do you ever wished you had gone down with the ship at

:24:21.:24:26.

the time? No, I'm delighted for my constituency. It's one of the things

:24:27.:24:32.

I enjoy most in politics. If you are inviting me to lick my wounds in

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public, I don't do that. Television cameras love mawkish! Nick Clegg,

:24:42.:24:45.

thank you very much indeed, and you can hear the other side of the leave

:24:46.:24:57.

or remain argument later this morning when Nigel Farage joins

:24:58.:24:58.

Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics. Leonardo DiCaprio has long been

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Hollywood's golden boy, adored by both the box

:25:04.:25:05.

office and the critics. The one accolade that eludes him

:25:06.:25:07.

is the Best Actor Oscar. Well, next month, he hopes

:25:08.:25:10.

that will all change. His new epic, The Revenant,

:25:11.:25:12.

was a ferociously hard film to make. It's a bloody tale of survival

:25:13.:25:15.

and revenge in the wintry Wild West, as a trapper is left

:25:16.:25:18.

for dead by his comrades. When we met, DiCaprio told me why

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The Revenant was his most difficult role to date, and why he's thrilled

:25:21.:25:23.

it's been nominated for 12 Oscars. I think certainly the conditions

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that we had to shoot in was the main thing, the freezing

:25:29.:25:57.

cold temperatures. But everyone that was part of this

:25:58.:26:01.

movie, including myself, knew from the very onset

:26:02.:26:04.

we were going to get involved with something that would be

:26:05.:26:07.

incredibly challenging. So, you had to live in the snow,

:26:08.:26:10.

with the cold and the ice. But there was something

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exciting about it. We wanted to shoot the entire film

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in natural light, so we had this hour and a half window,

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this golden hour and a half at the end of the day,

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which led to this fanaticism, We rehearsed all day long,

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but everything we needed to accomplish that shot

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in an hour and a half. I am sure I will never experience

:26:45.:26:46.

a movie like this again. To what extent do the native

:26:47.:26:49.

Americans become the We have seen historically

:26:50.:26:53.

in Hollywood this polarisation where they are either extremely

:26:54.:26:57.

good or extremely bad. Everyone in this film

:26:58.:27:00.

is trying to survive. 'Missouri's no good,

:27:01.:27:06.

not while they are running it'. This clash between the white men

:27:07.:27:11.

coming to the West to extract the natural resources,

:27:12.:27:14.

killing the animals, And what happened to

:27:15.:27:16.

the native American culture? The Revenant has had 12 Oscar

:27:17.:27:25.

nominations, you have been nominated, congratulations,

:27:26.:27:29.

for Best Actor. All year, there has been

:27:30.:27:30.

a chirruping and a tweeting in the background -

:27:31.:27:37.

this is Leonardo DiCaprio's year. Do you feel that they are going

:27:38.:27:39.

to talk you out of it? Do I think they will talk me

:27:40.:27:42.

out of it? Is there too much

:27:43.:27:45.

chatter about it almost? The truth of the matter is that I've

:27:46.:27:49.

been in situations before where I thought films

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or performances, either mine or others, should be either

:27:53.:27:59.

nominated or a film should be more adored by the public,

:28:00.:28:02.

or critics should revere it more. Knowing that I did a movie that took

:28:03.:28:05.

this much of my life, that we devoted this much to it

:28:06.:28:17.

as far as focus is concerned, we gave it everything

:28:18.:28:25.

we possibly could. To sit here and be looking at that

:28:26.:28:28.

many nominations for this film, not only feels good but it feels

:28:29.:28:31.

like people have a yearning to see It's one of those films

:28:32.:28:34.

where you need that wraparound sound and the big screen to appreciate

:28:35.:28:42.

the extraordinary photography. In an age of Netflix with multipart

:28:43.:28:45.

series all over the place, I wonder to what extent you feel

:28:46.:28:49.

yourself to be a standard bearer Netflix can put a tremendous amount

:28:50.:28:52.

of wealth into the quality, My instinct is it's going to be

:28:53.:29:05.

the spectacle-based films that will survive in the theatrical

:29:06.:29:13.

release, because people want to have the Imax experience,

:29:14.:29:19.

they want that sound. They want to feel it amongst

:29:20.:29:21.

the community and have To be able to have a dark theatre,

:29:22.:29:23.

and completely transport yourself somewhere entirely,

:29:24.:29:31.

and forget the rest of the world exists, there's nothing else

:29:32.:29:34.

like that, artistically. And so, yes, that's why

:29:35.:29:40.

the theatrical experience, We are going to see

:29:41.:29:58.

Leonardo DiCaprio working on the big screen working with great

:29:59.:30:08.

directors again, I'm sure. But less likely to see him

:30:09.:30:10.

in a 24-part Netflix TV series. For me, it always depends

:30:11.:30:13.

on the director. If it is a great director,

:30:14.:30:16.

I'm up for anything. We just lost this week Alan Rickman,

:30:17.:30:19.

one of our greatest actors. Among the many things he said,

:30:20.:30:29.

he's only interested, when he's thinking about acting,

:30:30.:30:31.

in the intensity and the accuracy I believe David Bowie was exactly

:30:32.:30:34.

the same age. That quote is a very pertinent one,

:30:35.:30:45.

certainly for me in this movie, one of the lessons I learned

:30:46.:30:55.

while making this movie because so much of what I have

:30:56.:30:57.

to do is in silence. It was about listening,

:30:58.:31:01.

to the world around me, to not have to feel like everything

:31:02.:31:05.

needs to be articulated, I would say that is,

:31:06.:31:08.

certainly for me as an actor, Leonardo DiCaprio,

:31:09.:31:13.

great to talk to you. After the chaos of Labour's endless

:31:14.:31:15.

reshuffle, Jeremy Corbyn tried to regain the initiative yesterday

:31:16.:31:23.

with a speech laying out his plans to enforce greater equality

:31:24.:31:26.

across the British economy. A new survey this week shows how

:31:27.:31:30.

popular he is on the left. Labour membership has

:31:31.:31:34.

almost doubled under him. But the bigger question

:31:35.:31:35.

is whether he can win over uncommitted, sceptical

:31:36.:31:38.

Middle Britain. Welcome, Mr Corbyn. Today, Len

:31:39.:31:48.

McCluskey gave an interview and is asked about his future. He says, the

:31:49.:31:53.

issue is whether Jeremy will be successful, how long it will take,

:31:54.:32:03.

we have to wait and see. I talk in terms of allowing Jeremy

:32:04.:32:06.

two or three years. Do you feel on probation?

:32:07.:32:15.

I am doing my best to change the debate in Britain about the kind of

:32:16.:32:20.

society we want to live in, the grotesque inequalities, the housing

:32:21.:32:26.

crisis. Those are the issues I am campaigning strongly on. Party

:32:27.:32:30.

membership has grown, party activity has increased, good for democracy.

:32:31.:32:36.

There is a perception the people you are interested in is party members,

:32:37.:32:41.

is that fair? I spent a great deal of time

:32:42.:32:45.

travelling Britain, talking to people, campaigning. I wish to reach

:32:46.:32:52.

out to everybody because the health crisis affects everybody, the

:32:53.:32:56.

housing crisis, the grotesque levels of inequality. There is a moral case

:32:57.:33:03.

Britain has to do this differently and better.

:33:04.:33:06.

To deal with the inequality, you have to win power.

:33:07.:33:11.

There are 2 million people who voted Conservative that you have to win

:33:12.:33:17.

over. 80% of votes are people who voted Conservative. Do you think

:33:18.:33:22.

about those people with their mortgages and pensions who are not

:33:23.:33:28.

your natural supporters, don't go to meetings, not members, do you have a

:33:29.:33:31.

connection? It is right about winning people

:33:32.:33:38.

over. We do that by saying we wish to protect the NHS, not privatise

:33:39.:33:43.

it. We wish to address the housing crisis so there is proper capital

:33:44.:33:50.

housing. There is affordable places to buy for younger people who cannot

:33:51.:33:55.

get into social housing. There is going to be proper regulation of the

:33:56.:34:00.

private rented sector. But we also say to the millions of

:34:01.:34:04.

young people who did not register or vote, there is a future for you in

:34:05.:34:12.

proper access to education, decent training opportunities for high

:34:13.:34:17.

skilled jobs in manufacturing, so we rebalance our economy are not with a

:34:18.:34:22.

focus on the service sector but a greater focus on what we are good at

:34:23.:34:29.

which is inventing and developing new and high technology particularly

:34:30.:34:33.

green energy source. A lot of what you said was said by

:34:34.:34:38.

Ed Miliband. You are saying the same thing. He got hammered in that

:34:39.:34:46.

election, you lost 26 seats. The real question is whether you are

:34:47.:34:49.

prepared to reach out far enough to win those people back and prepared

:34:50.:34:55.

to compromise on your deeply held beliefs.

:34:56.:34:59.

We reach out to everybody because inequality affects us all, poverty

:35:00.:35:04.

affects us all. Such a wasted opportunity and waste of economic

:35:05.:35:08.

development opportunity. There is a message for everybody here.

:35:09.:35:14.

Why haven't they heard it before? People hear lots of things all the

:35:15.:35:19.

time. We have some time to put this over before the next election. There

:35:20.:35:24.

are electoral tests in May. We have to reach out and we are doing that.

:35:25.:35:30.

We'll leave gain some seats in May, in local elections, you haven't done

:35:31.:35:35.

very well. Outside of London, you have been falling way back.

:35:36.:35:42.

We are contesting elections all over the country. We have the mayoral

:35:43.:35:45.

elections in many parts including London.

:35:46.:35:51.

But you are going backwards. You say that but the evidence is our

:35:52.:35:55.

party is working very hard, we are gaining support. Opinion polls are

:35:56.:36:05.

fascinating but not a test. You fell back and average in the

:36:06.:36:09.

midlands of 10% in by-elections up to now. East Midlands, down 5.6%,

:36:10.:36:17.

Scotland down 8%, West Country no change. West Midlands down 10.6%,

:36:18.:36:24.

evidence on the ground you are not reaching out to those people.

:36:25.:36:29.

Council by-elections are an indicator but not the whole story

:36:30.:36:35.

because of local factors. We are campaigning very hard on the issue

:36:36.:36:41.

particularly of housing and health and fairness and equality in Britain

:36:42.:36:45.

which is what my speech to the Fabian Society was all about. Taking

:36:46.:36:52.

our society forward to look at the grotesque levels of executive pay in

:36:53.:36:56.

Britain compared to the 6 million people living below the living wage.

:36:57.:37:01.

In that speech, you proposed companies which did not pay the

:37:02.:37:05.

living wage should not pay dividends. I do not understand. I

:37:06.:37:09.

thought you were committed to bringing in the living pay -- living

:37:10.:37:17.

wage of ?10 an hour. The living wage proposed is less,

:37:18.:37:22.

the living wage now would be over ?8 to stay an hour in the UK, high in

:37:23.:37:28.

London. We would bring in a proper living wage. In the interim, we are

:37:29.:37:36.

saying to companies, if you are able to pay out dividends, listed

:37:37.:37:40.

companies, you should first check your wage bill, how many people you

:37:41.:37:45.

are employing directly or through contractual arrangements being paid

:37:46.:37:51.

less than the living wage. The wages inspectorate shows yes we have laws

:37:52.:37:57.

on wages but there is a lot of evasion. We need to crack down.

:37:58.:38:02.

You cannot ban companies from paying dividends until you are in power,

:38:03.:38:09.

and then you would introduce a legal obligation of the living wage.

:38:10.:38:13.

We will bring it in as soon as we can. It is an interim.

:38:14.:38:19.

In the same speech, you talked about the differential between the people

:38:20.:38:22.

at the top and bottom of companies, you said they should be brought

:38:23.:38:30.

down, how far down should the ratio be?

:38:31.:38:34.

The average pay of an executive is ?45 million a year in a Footsie

:38:35.:38:40.

company. The average wage in those companies of workers is far less.

:38:41.:38:51.

Executive pay has gone up, and relatively and proportionally pay

:38:52.:38:56.

has gone down for the workers. This is not something to be proud of.

:38:57.:39:02.

The ratio is 87-1. Where do you think it should be?

:39:03.:39:08.

I do not have an absolute figure in mind. It should be a lot less. We

:39:09.:39:13.

should study this and take more evidence and consult. The whole

:39:14.:39:19.

process of policy making I am encouraging the Labour Party to

:39:20.:39:24.

undertake its participation, including the wider public. Let us

:39:25.:39:30.

bring in those ideas so we promote the debate about the kind of society

:39:31.:39:34.

we want to live in. Outside here, the levels of

:39:35.:39:39.

inequality are obvious. People on the streets, people driving past in

:39:40.:39:43.

expensive cars, it is not right. It's part of that a wealth tax?

:39:44.:39:50.

There is a lot of debate. It is about tax collection and tax

:39:51.:39:55.

evasion. Not just the headline of saying a wealth tax. About saying to

:39:56.:40:00.

the very wealthy, you have a responsibility to pay tax, including

:40:01.:40:06.

the big companies that manage to offshore their head offices, their

:40:07.:40:10.

processing systems, so they end up paying tax in a lower tax regime

:40:11.:40:15.

than they showed in the UK. And about groups of workers getting

:40:16.:40:20.

better pay deals. John MacDonald said the Labour Party position has

:40:21.:40:25.

changed and you are automatically in favour of strikes, you will give

:40:26.:40:31.

them your automatic support. I don't think he said exactly that,

:40:32.:40:36.

what he said but I don't know exactly, I am sure you are about to

:40:37.:40:40.

quote. The view is straightforward, if

:40:41.:40:43.

there is industrial action, we should automatically now come

:40:44.:40:48.

alongside our brothers and sisters in the trade unions and support

:40:49.:40:52.

them. John is saying his instinctive

:40:53.:40:59.

position. For a lot of people, that we should support those people

:41:00.:41:03.

defending their position, in some cases, it improved their position.

:41:04.:41:07.

That is why we are supporting the junior doctors in their reasonable

:41:08.:41:12.

campaign, supporting the nurses to protect their bursaries. So we get a

:41:13.:41:17.

better health service. All strikes, has there ever been a

:41:18.:41:21.

strike you didn't support? I am sure there has been.

:41:22.:41:26.

Junior doctors, that would be more effective if other groups of workers

:41:27.:41:32.

who agree and see this as protecting their NHS could go on strike in

:41:33.:41:37.

support, would you repeal the Conservative visitation which

:41:38.:41:40.

forbids sympathy action? The junior doctors would be far

:41:41.:41:44.

better served if we had a Health Secretary prepared to get involved,

:41:45.:41:49.

beat them and look for a solution. There is no dispute in Scotland or

:41:50.:41:54.

Wales. Those governments have come to reasonable agreements, why can't

:41:55.:41:58.

Jeremy Hunt do the same? My question was about sympathy

:41:59.:42:02.

action and if you would remove that legislation?

:42:03.:42:07.

I think it should be legal here. You would repeal those Tory laws. Of

:42:08.:42:13.

course. No one willingly goes on strike, it is an ultimate weapon.

:42:14.:42:20.

Anyone who goes on strike is making an enormous sacrifice, they don't

:42:21.:42:25.

get paid, they suffer a great deal as a result.

:42:26.:42:29.

Let us look at the causes of the upset by the band the symptoms.

:42:30.:42:33.

So you would allow sympathy action, what about the closed shop?

:42:34.:42:39.

The closed shop, I would leave it as it is.

:42:40.:42:46.

Flying pickets? Flying pickets or a term first used in 1972 or

:42:47.:42:53.

thereabouts, people moving around showing support in a difficult

:42:54.:42:58.

industrial dispute. We have to look at the question not

:42:59.:43:03.

of what trade unions are forced to do, but the causes of the problems.

:43:04.:43:08.

Who would have thought the BMA for the first time in 40 years would be

:43:09.:43:14.

taking industrial action? A demonstration of far out of touch

:43:15.:43:17.

this Government has become and its Health Secretary.

:43:18.:43:22.

You would be in favour of secondary picketing and sympathy strikes. Some

:43:23.:43:27.

say this is your problem, you think back to the 70s when the country was

:43:28.:43:31.

on the edge of chaos and people thought the trade unions then simply

:43:32.:43:36.

had too much power, do you agree? What we were doing in the 1970s was

:43:37.:43:43.

trying to campaign for a minimum wage, what we are looking forward to

:43:44.:43:49.

is a 21st century, are we going down the road of the continuing grotesque

:43:50.:43:56.

levels of inequality in society, or regenerating ourselves as a

:43:57.:44:00.

high-tech, efficient manufacturing economy with good quality public

:44:01.:44:04.

services, properly paid public service workers, and a higher tax

:44:05.:44:09.

income because of the higher wages and higher levels of investment in

:44:10.:44:15.

industry which makes the whole society better off? What is holding

:44:16.:44:22.

us back? You have said some of the money

:44:23.:44:27.

going into Trident you would want to divert into green technologies to

:44:28.:44:34.

soak up the employment issues. We are consulting, Emily Thornbury

:44:35.:44:38.

has drawn up an interesting document. That is out for

:44:39.:44:44.

consultation as of Friday. The point I have made always is that I

:44:45.:44:49.

recognise that if there is to be a change in the Trident programme and

:44:50.:44:52.

I would want there to be, the first priority has to be to protect those

:44:53.:44:58.

jobs, redirect investment into those yards and factories and companies

:44:59.:45:03.

that would be making material and systems to go the Trident said their

:45:04.:45:05.

jobs are protected. Len McCluskey again said yesterday

:45:06.:45:18.

at the Scottish conference that the policy of getting rid of Trident

:45:19.:45:23.

would devastate communities and jobs, and he was wholly against it.

:45:24.:45:28.

I have had that discussion with Len McCluskey, with numbers of other

:45:29.:45:33.

people, and will be continuing to have those discussions. Other

:45:34.:45:38.

countries do things differently. We have amazing skills and amazing

:45:39.:45:41.

technology available in this country. Obviously my instinct is

:45:42.:45:46.

that we should use it differently, my instinct is that greater security

:45:47.:45:50.

in the world is not achieved with nuclear weapons, it's achieved by

:45:51.:45:54.

addressing the causes of insecurity. There are plenty in the military who

:45:55.:46:00.

would agree with me on that. There are many in the Labour Party who

:46:01.:46:04.

don't. It is a debate within the party, it's not a secret. You gave

:46:05.:46:12.

an interview to the independent on-site -- on Sunday in which you

:46:13.:46:20.

said it was not a binary decision, what did you mean by that? There may

:46:21.:46:27.

well be a discussion on considering further because the Government is in

:46:28.:46:31.

arguments about the cost of the whole programme. Many in the

:46:32.:46:35.

military are worried about the focus of so much expenditure on nuclear

:46:36.:46:39.

weapons when they are looking at more conventional issues and of

:46:40.:46:44.

course issues of insecurity around the world. When you say it's not

:46:45.:46:50.

binary, is there an implication Jeremy Corbyn might support a

:46:51.:46:53.

reduction in the nuclear deterrent without going the whole hog ending

:46:54.:46:58.

it straightaway? You shouldn't read so much into one sentence in an

:46:59.:47:01.

interview. My views on nuclear weapons are very well-known, and I

:47:02.:47:08.

want to see a nuclear free world, I want to see us playing a full role

:47:09.:47:15.

in the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, I want to see a

:47:16.:47:20.

de-escalation in nuclear potentials around the world. I sometimes wonder

:47:21.:47:26.

if this whole Trident debate in the Labour Party is a nonsense because

:47:27.:47:30.

we know you have said you would never press the button, and if you

:47:31.:47:34.

were a Labour Party Prime Minister therefore there would never be a

:47:35.:47:39.

nuclear deterrent. If you have made it clear you won't use it, there is

:47:40.:47:44.

no deterrent anyway. The real issue is are we going to play our part in

:47:45.:47:47.

the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That was a missed

:47:48.:47:55.

opportunity in May, I want to pay -- play a full part in the nuclear

:47:56.:48:06.

Non-Proliferation Treaty which requires the countries that have

:48:07.:48:09.

signed it not to develop or create nuclear weapons. If we have these

:48:10.:48:15.

submarines packed with nuclear weapons circling the globe and the

:48:16.:48:18.

Prime Minister has said I will never use them, it is not a deterrent

:48:19.:48:26.

anyway. They don't have to have nuclear warheads on them. If anybody

:48:27.:48:33.

uses on nuclear weapons, it is catastrophic for the whole globe. I

:48:34.:48:37.

don't believe David Cameron would use it either. So you don't think

:48:38.:48:43.

the deterrent exist as a deterrent any more? The nuclear deterrent

:48:44.:48:51.

exist from the Cold War generation, I don't think today they are

:48:52.:48:55.

solution for that. Look at the disaster of 9/11, when nuclear

:48:56.:49:02.

weapons any help? No, they were not. We have achieved a big step forward

:49:03.:49:07.

with Iran, that is the way forward, diplomacy comes first. You have

:49:08.:49:13.

suggested just now one answer might be to keep the Trident submarines

:49:14.:49:15.

but without nuclear weapons on board. There are options there. The

:49:16.:49:22.

paper Emily Thornberry has put forward is very interesting one, it

:49:23.:49:26.

deserves a good study of it and I hope there will be a mature response

:49:27.:49:32.

to what is a very and hopefully mature debate about the nature of

:49:33.:49:35.

security and insecurity, the nature of the way in which we protect

:49:36.:49:39.

ourselves from insecurity, and we bring about a more secure world as a

:49:40.:49:44.

result. Moving to another part of the insecure world we have been

:49:45.:49:50.

talking about, Syria. The city of Madaya has-been so-called by

:49:51.:50:00.

Hezbollah. You have had dialogue with Hezbollah, have you any roots

:50:01.:50:04.

back to them? Can you persuade them to stop that siege because what they

:50:05.:50:09.

are doing is a war crime. What I would say to them and everybody else

:50:10.:50:12.

involved in the conflict in Syria, listen to the wise words of Ban

:50:13.:50:18.

Ki-Moon, when he said, to use food as a weapon of war is a war crime. I

:50:19.:50:23.

hope they are hearing this. Anyone who commits a war crime will face

:50:24.:50:28.

the consequences of that at some point in the future. That is my

:50:29.:50:33.

message to Hezbollah, to the Syrian government, to Isil or anyone else.

:50:34.:50:39.

Back at the time of the IRA flood, as it were, the Government said no

:50:40.:50:46.

talking to terrorists. People like you who suggest talking to

:50:47.:50:49.

terrorists are themselves like terrorists. We now know they were

:50:50.:50:54.

talking to the IRA from very early stages. Obviously, Isis cannot be

:50:55.:50:58.

part of the Vienna talks at the moment, but do you think there

:50:59.:51:02.

should be a back channel, should we be talking to Isis and making some

:51:03.:51:07.

kind of contact with them? The British government maintained a

:51:08.:51:10.

channel to the IRA all through the trouble is, I don't condemn them for

:51:11.:51:15.

that. I don't condemn them for keeping the back channel to the

:51:16.:51:20.

Taliban. You have got to look at the relationship with many countries...

:51:21.:51:27.

There has got to be some route through somewhere. A lot of the

:51:28.:51:32.

commanders in Isil, particularly in Iraq, are actually former officers

:51:33.:51:37.

in the Iraqi army because we made many catastrophic mistakes, one of

:51:38.:51:43.

which was to destroy the whole Iraqi State structure in 2003. So do you

:51:44.:51:48.

think we could have a dialogue with these people? Dialogue is perhaps

:51:49.:51:53.

the wrong word. There has got to be some understanding of their strong

:51:54.:51:56.

points and weak points and how we can challenge their ideology. I

:51:57.:52:01.

believe that the neighbouring governments in the region are in

:52:02.:52:06.

touch. Look at the way in which there has been some degree at times

:52:07.:52:10.

of prisoner exchange, hostage exchange. We have got to bring about

:52:11.:52:16.

a political solution in Syria. Vienna has made a lot of progress,

:52:17.:52:20.

it has got to go a lot further and faster, there has got to be peace.

:52:21.:52:24.

But war crimes have got to be addressed. We have a new president

:52:25.:52:30.

of Argentina who said he wants to have negotiations about sovereignty

:52:31.:52:33.

and so forth over the Falklands. You have said in the past that you think

:52:34.:52:38.

such negotiations should take place and there should be a role for the

:52:39.:52:43.

Islanders. My question is should the islanders have any veto over the

:52:44.:52:48.

talks? There has got to be some discussion, it seems ridiculous that

:52:49.:52:54.

in the 21st century we would be getting into some enormous conflict

:52:55.:52:57.

with Argentina about the islands just off it. Of course the islanders

:52:58.:53:02.

have a say in this, let's bring about some sensible dialogue. An

:53:03.:53:07.

enormous say but not veto perhaps? They have got a right to stay where

:53:08.:53:11.

they are, they have got a right to decide on their own future and that

:53:12.:53:16.

would be part of it. Let's not set agendas in advance. What did you

:53:17.:53:23.

think about the original war? I thought the original war was a

:53:24.:53:27.

problem for both countries in the sense that Galtieri was a deeply

:53:28.:53:34.

unpopular dictator in Argentina. I thought President Terry of the room

:53:35.:53:38.

was trying to make enormous progress both bringing about a UN resolution

:53:39.:53:43.

to it, and then we have the disaster of the sinking of the Belgrano and

:53:44.:53:46.

the whole situation got worse as a result of that. Surely in the

:53:47.:53:51.

21st-century we can do better than going to war over these things. For

:53:52.:53:57.

now, thank you very much indeed. Now, over to Roger

:53:58.:53:58.

for the news headlines. International sanctions

:53:59.:54:00.

against Iran have been lifted, almost 40 years after

:54:01.:54:02.

they were first imposed. The development came late last

:54:03.:54:05.

night, as the UN verified that Iran had complied with demands

:54:06.:54:08.

to dismantle much The head of the UN's atomic energy

:54:09.:54:10.

watchdog is travelling to Tehran today to discuss continued

:54:11.:54:14.

nuclear monitoring. A campaign group has been set up

:54:15.:54:21.

by pro-European Conservatives to make the case for

:54:22.:54:23.

Britain to stay in the EU. The group is being led by the former

:54:24.:54:29.

minister Nick Herbert. It supports the changes to the terms

:54:30.:54:32.

of membership being negotiated The next news on BBC One

:54:33.:54:34.

is at one o'clock. First, a look at what's coming up

:54:35.:54:39.

immediately after this programme. We will be live at ten o'clock when

:54:40.:54:51.

we will be asking if crime should die with the accused, come all

:54:52.:55:00.

religions be right, and trolling on social media, do men really hate

:55:01.:55:06.

women that much? Jeremy Corbyn is still with me. I wanted to ask about

:55:07.:55:10.

Donald Trump, who has said he wants to ban Muslims from coming into

:55:11.:55:16.

America. What is your reaction to that? I think Donald Trump has some

:55:17.:55:21.

weird and frankly off the wall views. I was asked about this some

:55:22.:55:25.

time ago and I decided to invite Donald Trump on his visit to Britain

:55:26.:55:31.

to come with me to my constituency because he has problems with

:55:32.:55:35.

Mexicans and Muslims. As you know, my wife is Mexican and my

:55:36.:55:39.

constituency is very multicultural so I was going to go to the mosque

:55:40.:55:44.

with him and let him talk to people there. I'm sure he would love it.

:55:45.:55:48.

There's a debate in the Commons that he should not be allowed into this

:55:49.:55:52.

country at all, what is your view on that? I don't think we should ban

:55:53.:55:57.

people coming to Britain on that basis. He should come here and have

:55:58.:56:01.

a lesson in going to all of our cities. Why can't he go to

:56:02.:56:05.

Leicester, Birmingham or Newcastle and see that we have great diversity

:56:06.:56:11.

in our society. Take a walk around any of our cities. Understand that

:56:12.:56:16.

we have problems but we also have a great community and great cohesion.

:56:17.:56:21.

He might learn something. And you will be meeting President Obama

:56:22.:56:27.

later in the year. An interesting conversation about Trident and

:56:28.:56:31.

nuclear weapons. I'm sure we will have a fascinating conversation

:56:32.:56:35.

about lots of things. Including African-American role in the United

:56:36.:56:40.

States. I'm absolutely looking forward to. It We may not agree on

:56:41.:56:47.

everything. Do you want to come? I would be delighted to come, thank

:56:48.:56:48.

you for the invitation! Andrew Neil and the Sunday Politics

:56:49.:56:52.

have a bumper line-up in an hour, including Labour's new Shadow

:56:53.:56:57.

Defence Secretary Emily Thornberry, Join us again next Sunday when I'll

:56:58.:56:59.

be talking to the current First Minister of Scotland,

:57:00.:57:03.

SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon. Plus Hollywood hard

:57:04.:57:05.

man Harvey Keitel. Until then, we leave

:57:06.:57:07.

you with the classical From his new album, Blackbird,

:57:08.:57:09.

this is one of The Beatles'

:57:10.:57:13.

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