14/02/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

This is the week when David Cameron hopes he finally gets his deal

with Brussels and he can fire the starting gun for our in/out

For the first time in more than 40 years, you and I get our chance

the Cabinet Minister at the heart of all of this,

the Foreign Secretary Phillp Hammond,

and one of Labour's leading Eurosceptics, Gisela Stuart.

Very sadly, this week also saw the announcement

that the Independent was to cease publication as a newspaper.

Its last editor, Amol Rajan, is here.

Later on, we're going right back to the orgins of the EU,

looking at a new play about two great but controversial Frenchmen -

General De Gaulle and Marshall Petain -

with actors Tom Conti and Laurence Fox.

Now, if I was really cool, I would have picked Laura Mvula

I am so not but, luckily, other members of the team are.

# When your head is heavy, low, low, low #.

And joining Amol Rajan in our paper review,

another former editor, Sir Simon Jenkins,

and the Sun star columnist Jane Moore.

But first, the news with Steph McGovern.

Washington has urged Turkey to halt attacks on Kurdish targets

in northern Syria, amid fears the shelling will complicate efforts

Turkey says it will send ground forces into Syria if an agreement

for an end to hostilities doesn't succeed.

Russia has rejected calls to change its policy of air strikes,

with the West accusing Moscow of targeting civilians.

It had been hoped that a ceasefire could be under way in just a few

days' time but there's no sign of hostilities winding down.

In northern Syria, a new fight opened up, with Turkish tanks firing

across the border at these positions held by Kurdish fighters.

Turkey's Prime Minister said his country had retaliated

because its own forces had come under fire.

He said the Kurdish militia should immediately withdraw

Turkey's hosting a number of Nato aircraft, targeting so-called

It's now been confirmed that Saudi Arabian planes will also

There's even talk of Turkey and Saudi Arabia launching a ground

At an international security conference in Munich,

the Russian Foreign Minister said the ceasefire was slightly more

The British Foreign Minister was even more pessimistic.

It sounds like a little less than 50%.

I was going to say, I don't speak Russian but I was judging

Russia is talking of a new Cold War with the West.

It says its support for the Syrian government has

You shouldn't demonise anyone except terrorists in Syria

and that the humanitarian issues must be resolved

And there is some sign of that happening.

These Red Crescent trucks were heading for a suburb

There's hope that if the fighting does stop in some areas,

aid will get through to more besieged towns.

The Foreign Office says it's investigating reports that two

British men have been arrested in Greece carrying

Greek officials said the men, both in their 20s

and said to be Iraqi born, were detained last night

They were said to be driving a trailer carrying more than a dozen

The longest-serving judge on the US Supreme Court has died suddenly

Antonin Scalia had been in position since he was appointed

President Obama says he will now nominate a replacement.

His choice could influence the political balance of the court

and its future decisions in key areas of federal law.

It's understood that the Education Secretary Nicky Morgan is looking

to America for the next head of England's schools inspectorate

It's thought several Americans are to be approached about replacing

Sir Michael Wilshaw, who will stand down as chief

The Bafta film awards take place in London this evening.

Idris Elba, Eddie Redmayne, Dame Maggie Smith and Kate Winslet

are among the British stars hoping to win.

Eddie Redmayne could become a back-to-back Best Actor winner

Brie Larson is tipped to win Best Actress for her part

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

All the real stars are in this studio today. So to the front pages

and if there's one thing, its editors desperately trying to

persuade their apathetic readers that the EU referendum is jolly

exciting stop the bus, the Sunday Times warns, cheap flights to Europe

are threat if we beat the EU. The Sunday Express, EU declares war on

drivers. The Mail on Sunday has a fun story here. Angela Merkel's

number two says that Britain cannot survive outside the EU. That's a

story designed to drive all patriotically British people into

insane rage. Then there's the Observer talking about the health

crisis and Jeremy Corbyn is going to make a bold speech very shortly, in

which he is going to be pro-immigration against the theme,

the mood of the country. Finally, public faith in Cameron drops.

People don't believe any longer he is going to get the deal we need for

the EU. We will talk a lot about that through the rest of the

programme, including in the paper review. Welcome to you all. We will

be talking about the Independent in a bit but we want to talk about

Cameron's secret negotiations. It is one of these classic political

stories. Tim Shipman is the brilliant political editor of the

Sunday Times. Oliver let win, one of David Cameron's key allies has on

the record said he wants to stay in Europe but lots of people have told

Tim Shipman that secretly Oliver Leopard wants to leave. We are

getting this irreconcilable difference within the Cabinet. Lots

of people saying they want to be out and lots of people saying they want

to be in. The question is whether or not Cameron is going to let the

people who want to be out speak. He's going to Brussels. When he

comes back, he wants a 48-hour silent period where the people that

are backing out, like Priti Patel, John Whittingdale and Iain Duncan

Smith, are going to be began. Meanwhile, we got people like the

CEO of easyJet saying we got to stay in the EU. The big problem people

who want to stay in have had is that they've failed to understand that

lots of people CPU is basically this elite project and getting people

like the former chairman of Marks Spencer and the CEO of easyJet isn't

going to persuade the man living in Huddersfield that the EU is for him.

There is this amazing emerging divide which is going to be

irreconcilable. The ones we don't know about, Michael Gove Boris

Johnson. I think Gomis leaving out and Boris is moving in. The first

paragraph he says, Oliver let Winn says Black is black and then right

at the end of the piece in quotes, "I think black is white". This is

the issue with Europe. No one actually knows. There is no

blueprint for a country moving the EU. It seems everybody is flailing

around in the breeze with their opinions on whether it's going to be

good or bad to leave. Meanwhile, the grassroots, Simon, are still... I

think people don't know what to think. This is a very arcane

subject. I think they don't like project fear. I'm being told every

day of the week now that tourism will end, they are going to get your

cars, babies are going to die in their beds. It's an absurd way of

approaching politics. It didn't work very well in Scotland, did it? We

don't know what works in Scotland. We don't know what works now. There

is a mismatch between what the elite is saying. It is a sort of tram

phenomenon. They are trying to make is afraid at one side and on the

other side, hordes of immigrants have we leave, hordes of immigrants

if we don't leave. It has become craziness. I don't make it will make

a lot of difference which way we vote. That is adjusting view - it

doesn't matter. If we vote to say in Europe, nothing will change. If we

vote to leave, something will change but we don't know what it is yet.

I'm for no first time, yes second time, but there will have to be a

new arrangement. Can I stop you on that? You think we should vote to

leave the EU now to put real pressure for change in Europe? And

then if we get it, but to stay. We're already left one form of the

EU, the eurozone. And Schengen. This is what they used to call very body

of. If we vote no, there will be huge crisis and there will have to

be a new negotiation. It is simply a matter of being grown up in each of

these cases. And if we do leave, Scotland will use that as a reason

to have another referendum because they will want to stay in Europe,

probably. Project fear works both ways. We've got Germans - you can't

survive without us, Merkel's number two. This has got so build cash

talking about his dad. His father was killed in Normandy and he's sort

of conflating the two and saying that appeasement didn't work then.

Bill has never been a wild enthusiasts for the Germans. Simon

Walters, the political editor, has said, when he wanted to talk to me

about this my instinct was to swerve him but he went to talk to him and

he's got a picture of Chamberlain upside down. It goes on and on. He's

basically saying that appeasement means to placate and by accepting

the EU as it is now we are placating them and we know who runs the show.

He is talking about Germany. Simon who initially wanted to avoid him

has now given him a page in the Mail on Sunday. Equally, the fear factor

can work the other way and Liam Fox in the sun is saying that fear won't

stop the Brits. He's talking about project fear and saying there is a

ridiculous story going on last week that migrant camps in Calais will

move overnight to Kent if we move to leave the EU. I think you are right,

project fear kicks in when actually nobody has a coherent sane argument.

The one thing that should be absolutely banned as references to

Hitler. If you start mentioning Hitler in any political argument,

you've lost. Meanwhile, mentioning Hitler or not, there is a story in

the Sunday Telegraph about Tory rebels. We think that there are a

bunch of rebels in the Cabinet, like John Whittingdale and Chris Grayling

and Priti Patel. Iain Duncan Smith is probably their putative leader.

They are coming together and there could be up to 20 quite senior

Tories. There is or is going to be, this is the week that they are going

to speak out at last but this might well be the week. The question is

whether or not they are going to be told by David Cameron after his

Brussels summit that they've got to maintain silence for 48 hours while

he filled the airwaves with pro-EU spokesman. This is going to be a big

one and it might be the one where a week from now we know what the Tory

outers actually look like. Let's move on to other parts of the world.

The other huge story is the Syrian crisis, where we've got a very good

analysis by Patrick Cockburn, one of your best writers, about where we

are now but also stories about Saudi troops and jets arriving in Turkey.

I can't think of anything more dangerous than the Arab countries

taking on the Russians toe to toe in northern Syria. Except the one thing

you don't want to do is be involved, in my view. The press have read this

so badly. At the beginning of the Arab Spring period, they said Assad

would be gone in weeks. It was blazing across all the newspapers.

He is finished, it's over, we must side with the rebels. Always a legal

thing to do. Ever since then, they've called it wrong. It was

clear the Iranians and the Russians were not going to let this guy fall.

Sooner or later - and God knows it's now later - he was going to win in

some sense of the word. So by getting involved again and again

half-heartedly, all we are doing is prolonging someone else's Civil War.

Patrick Cockburn, who we talked about and who will be writing for

the Independent long after we cease printing, has got it right all the

way through. There is a piece where he said we've evolved to a stage of

thinking where the West no longer thinks that what you have to do is

get rid of bad guys overseas. There is this really naive reading of

history which is that we saw the consequences of that in Iraq where

we thought, Saddam Hussein is bad so we've got to get rid of him without

thinking about the consequences. Obama said if Assad used chemical

weapons he would cross a red line. We now think Assad is going to stay

in power and the interesting thing is that what goes on in Saudi Arabia

is absolutely disgusting - the human rights, the treatment of women, it's

absolutely vital. But because of what happened in Syria and Libya,

maybe we think the house of Assad is a good thing because there are bad

guys and we fund them and give them lots of arms. But the opposition in

Saudi Arabia are even more militant Islamist and we don't know what's

going to come of that. But the other point Patrick makes is that everyone

said Russia's intervention going to be a nightmare and would be bad for

Russia. The fact is, Russia's intervention has kept Assad in place

and improve Russia's standing in the world. A handbrake turn back to

domestic life. Talking about things the Prescott wrong, that period

where everybody in public life was a sex maniac or paedophile whatever -

we've now swung back to where most of them are regarded as poor victims

who deserve a different kind of treatment.

Age-old argument that everything must be investigated in a fair and

short time. John Leslie, in the context of this is quite lucky. He

was accused just before Christmas of a sex allegation with a woman he

left an awards ceremony with. He has been cleared, not charged with

anything. He did an interview with the Sunday Mirror.

He is lucky because it took a short amount of time for him to be told no

further action. Somebody like Cliff Richard, two years he has been

waiting. I have been writing about this for a long, long time. Many

years. I don't think people should be named until they are charged.

Then you know that particular claim has veracity. At that point, when it

is publicised, other victims or alleged victims can come forward and

at their name to the list. Increasingly... Lord Brittan went to

his grave with his name tarnished. The newspapers give publicity to

these allegations. They do, they are allowed to. I agree with you. The

orgies that descends on these people... You can't ask the media

to... Exercise extra restraint? Times change. With social media, a

tiny nugget of information goes like this... Explodes. I have a small

gnome underneath the sofa and a lot of these allegations have been

proved to be true, Rolf Harris again yesterday. Absolutely, that is what

I said at the beginning. Bernard Hogan Howe, the chief of the match

but police has been dragged into this. He said something bizarre last

week, police should keep an open mind. Isn't that bad job? Their job

is to listen and investigate. -- their job. Not to charge. And not

rush to the newspapers before they know what happens. The Sunday Times

has completely demolished the argument is that Bernard Hogan Howe

used, not just for the treatment of Lord Brittan but Lord Bramall. The

Independent. Some people are still confused, what will the Independent

website be? What will it consist of? It will be true to the Independent

You have been an editor and so have I. Our values for the last 30 years,

international, intelligent. It is not shutting, it is switching. The

ones you mentioned in your wonderful piece in a loss-making newspaper

yesterday. They will be part of the Independent conversation. You will

be able to get them online. You have the star writers money not the great

network of reporters below them around the country and challenging

them and giving them new information information? We have lots of

reporters. On Friday, difficult and tough and Saturday as you said, we

had several million people look at the Independent journalism. Look at

all read? Aren't you sat at the death of a newspaper? Of course. --

aren't you side with, I have been in touch with lots of reporters over

the coming weeks. We had millions of readers online and a feud tends of

thousands in print. We will use the proceeds of the sale to invest. We

will have a profitable independent sustainable and it will be available

for the next 30 years. You won't be a physical newspaper, do you think

you will be followed by lots of your rivals on Wall Street? Eventually.

The business model for paid for general news Monday-Friday is

broken. There is nothing unclear about it, the game is over in terms

of general news. Lots of people still read newspapers. In the

long-term. You got the job of the editor of the times. It took us a

long time and I am succeeded at the end but it hasn't been killed, you

are quite right. Everything has changed. The most important thing is

plurality of outlets, there must be plurality of out put it, what ever

it is. People want to read newspaper. I read of the death of

the theatre, the death of the book, the death of the restaurant, the

death of the cinema because of television. Millions of people read

newspapers. As many people read newspapers in Britain today as when

I became a journalist. They are doing it online. No, we buy -- they

are buying newspapers. Papers are in bad shape, they will sort it out.

Another 30 years of offered ability will happen. It is one of those bad

moments. When you see a title of the newsstands. Sage words, this is the

death of the newspaper review, we have run out of time.

Say what you like about the British weather, it's got it's own slightly

strange, slightly nasty sense of humour.

Everything goes warm, flowers bloom, the sun comes out

and then a great, gray, greasy, stinking lump of meterological

LAUGHTER Quite a hand to the weather, I must

say. As far as today is concerned, not

too nasty, sunshine on the way for Valentine's Day, hopefully it will

warm up some frosty hearts this morning. It has been pretty chilly.

Snow showers from eastern parts of Scotland to the north-east of

England. Sunshine developing across the Midlands and further south.

Yesterday it was horrible, cold and rainy and now the sunshine is

setting in but during the course of this evening and overnight, some of

the sleet and snow showers across the East and north will move further

south. East Anglia and possibly London, Kent and Sussex may get some

flurries of sleet and snow in the course of the night. West, really

cold. City centre temper Jazz will not be very low but temperatures

could get down to five or six degrees in rural spots. Chris --

crisp weather. Maybe across the hills, a chance of some of it

settling before most of us it will be like and fleeting. The weather

for tomorrow, the start of the working week is cold, crisp and

sunny and milder later on in the week.

Gisela Stuart, Labour's only German MP, is also one of the party's most

prominent Eurosceptics, oh yes, there are plenty of Labour

So far, however, she's unsure which way she's actually

We will come onto that in a moment but a bit of historical perspective.

Last time there was a referendum in 1975, a huge hoard of very prominent

Labour figures, Tony Blair now and Peter Shaw and many more were

campaigning for us not to join the EU, European communities as it was.

A big Eurosceptic part of the Labour Party but it has almost vanished

with a few notable exceptions, why has that happened? 1962 there was a

warning of a federal state of Europe. We kept conflating the

argument of economic advantages, jobs, sovereignty. In the 70s we

were sitting on the fence, but in essence people thought this was too

much for business. In the mid-80s, the European Union gave us the kind

of workers and rights which Margaret Thatcher denied us. That was the

moment the Labour Party suddenly became pro-European. Ever since

Maastricht both sides have frozen. All we have to say to the Tories is

Europe and then they divide. We are internationalists at heart, it is

easier for asked we tried. Divide the Tories. What is your biggest

worry about Europe? The euro and the integration that requires? The

historic misunderstanding of what the project is about. The project

was always deeper integration and post-Maastricht and the creation of

the single currency, you could no longer widen and deepen without

serious political consequences. For the last 15 years we have been

trying to pretend that you can have one without the other. What worries

about me about this referendum, Andrew, everyone keeps talking about

the consequences of a vote for No. But if we have a yes vote, we

pretend it would be the status quo. It wouldn't, the year reserve would

have to integrate more deeply. We know from these negotiations, the

French are determined that it will carry on and integrate, fiscal

integration, one single European tax system. Can't we just stay outside

that? We are outside your own and be showing an?

If the Lisbon treatment, the last picture ET negotiation, we had

created a non-Eurozone group institution that was entrenched in

the treaties and the acknowledgement there will always be some countries

not part of the euro, that would have been a possible scenario. When

the Prime Minister came on your show, he said negotiations would

involve treaty change but that is not happening. Any of his safeguards

would be exceptions, rather than entrenched in the institution. You

have not made it clear yet which side you would vote for. Looking at

David Cameron's negotiations and what he is likely to get this week,

what is your position? I am the eternal optimist. The bar he slept

himself was exceptionally low. I would be surprised if when he comes

back to the House of Commons that I would say this is good enough -- he

set himself. You are leaning towards no? This simply isn't good enough

and it won't serve the British people. Your leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

is making what we are told will be a bold speech backing the case for

migration. That we need a positive speech pro migration from the Labour

leader. But from a lot of what used to be called blue Labour,

working-class Labour, they are worried about immigration. They are

worried about pressure on public services. Pro-immigration

particularly in big cities is a strong case but unless we actually

explain how we deal with that and don't disadvantage the people here,

it will be problematic. But I am glad we are widening the debate.

A lot of people who want Britain to leave the yuan on the right and one

of the points we make again and again and we have heard it on this

show, they want less workers right -- leave the EU. How many hours

people can work and health and safety. Don't you sometimes feel you

are on the wrong side? You are opening the door to a much more free

market, much less regulated writ in that lots of Labour voters don't

want to see. -- less regulated Britain. The European Union did not

give us the right. It was a Labour government which gave us a minimum

and living wage, which we have not got across Europe. The argument is

that I want a Labour government in the United Kingdom and that will

give me workers rights. If Britain votes to leave the Yukon will that

change domestic politics in a dramatic way that might favour your

party -- leaves be you. It might be cynical and a wrong handed

calculation. I am not suggesting that is why you what to do it. It

would be turmoil on the other side be so great that even under Jeremy

Corbyn Labour can get back across the UK? The vote will not fall along

party lines, people will make it on very different basis. After the

referendum we will probably have a reconvening of the tribalism of

party politics. But going into the referendum with people coming from

also rides and voting pretty unpredictably. For now, thank you

very much indeed, we will hear more from you later.

It's hard to categorise the singer, Laura Mvula.

Her earliest influences were soul, jazz and gospel music,

but she's also a classically-trained pianist and composer.

So you won't be surprised to hear that she's campaigned for more

diversity in contemporary music and to protect music

Her first album, Sing to the Moon was nominated for numerous awards,

and she's about to release her second.

Thank you very much for coming in. You began in Birmingham in the kind

of Gospel world. What extent has the church, gospel music and that's part

of the Black British tradition influenced you?

It was much broader than that for me. I was exposed to a lot of church

music, but even within church music, it was lots of traditions. We

attended Anglican churches quite a lot and the church I used to attend

was what you would call a free and independent church. Musically, the

styles were all over the place. Which is great. But, yeah, of

course, I was also raised in a Caribbean church. Which was a huge

influence for me. On my musical creativity growing up. As I said

just now, you have done everything, classical piano, composing, and you

are campaigning. You think, in a sense, our popular musical culture

has become too narrower, based on the kind of X factor type of voices,

tell us about that. For me, growing up, I was exposed to

so much musically, it was so broad and that was so important for me in

my composing and writing to feel that the influences could come from

all sorts. There were no boundaries, no limitations. I guess I struggle

with mainstream music, today, when we realise that it has become... One

thing. It all sounds the same. Which is not true of what exists today,

there is so much music, there are so many different ways of making music.

So many different ways of accessing music today.

Why should we just thrust one thing down? The powers that be so narrow.

It's interesting in the Brits because there is not much diversity.

Don't get me started about that. I won't be going to the Brits this

year. It is something I struggle with. Growing up, obviously my black

identity is something that is hugely important to me and something that

I'm now going into my 30s... I'm thinking lots and lots more about it

and I guess the problem for me is knowing that there are young, black

kids growing up and feeling that they are not acknowledge din society

in media and mainstream music. And their music is appropriated by white

musicians who then try to sound like black musicians but not that people

themselves. Is that why you are not going? Because of the diversity

issue because I'm not sure what my being there would achieve at this

point. But maybe next year, when I have my album out, it will make

sense for me to be there. Well, I'm very excited about what you're going

to be singing for us. Absolutely fabulous. We're looking forward to

that. Thanks for coming on the show, Laura.

Let's go back to the origins of the EU, born out of the trauma

One great Frenchman who later keeps Britain out

of the European Community is General De Gaulle,

who comes to London and leads resistance against the Nazis.

Another great Frenchman, the World War One hero

Marshall Petain, stays, does a deal with Hitler and heads

Vichy France, a collaborationist, anti-semitic and authoritarian

Strangely, for much of their lives the two men were close friends

and a new play in London asks which of them was The Patritotic

I caught up with Tom Conti, who plays Petain,

and Laurence Fox, who plays De Gaulle.

In this scene, Petain tries to defend his collaboration,

I inherited a catastrophe, I wasn't responsible for it!

A hero in the last war, to sign on the dotted line.

I said I'd take defeat on myself and I did.

You seem to see yourself as some sort of latter-day Christ.

A remarkable claim, for a man with no faith.

Your France, if you excuse me, has always been a figment

The courtyard of the Palace of Justice

in Paris and the bricked up window of Marshall Petain.

The old man of Vichy, 89 years old, wearing the seven stars

Lawyers for the defence battle for the old man's life.

Philippe Petain, once the hero of his country,

We have two figures here, with a very strong

relationship, a father-son relationship, both could be regarded

as traitors - Petain, for the obvious reason,

And that terrible anti-Semitic French dictator.

Yes, he didn't see himself as an anti-Semitic, or he didn't

His quarrel with de Gaulle was that de Gaulle left France

and he thought he should stay and do what you can.

The famous handshake with Hitler and so on.

The Queen shakes hands with people she doesn't want to shake hands

with, but she has to do it, because that's the way it is.

Is there any kind of defence of Petain's France?

Vichy's France, deporting Jews and he did deals with the Nazis.

You could say they did their job for them.

I don't know how effectively he actually did their job for them,

But he firmly believed that if he joined

forces with de Gaulle, Hitler would come in and raze

They both think the other in a sense is a traitor and Petain is not sure

whether de Gaulle will have him shot or not.

de Gaulle remains a controversial figure in France today.

There is a line in the play suggesting that Charles de Gaulle

Yes, that is one of the moments where you see his humanity.

His self-awareness is one of the big impacts of the play,

I deliver it a bit like a slightly upset little boy, "is that

unreasonable for me to want to be king?"

There is a great line in it, that a state is a fact,

This is the ideal of nationhood, which is very current

There is sympathy for Petain in France, is that right?

Yes, older people continued to see him as a hero.

There's no doubt he did bad things, but he also did things

that, according to his conscience, were right.

It's sad that he did employ the same tactic in World War II

In World War I, it worked and saved France.

In World War II, collaboration was awful.

Yes, one of the thing that I didn't know, which is so fascinating

is that de Gaulle wrote books about military tactics.

He used everything that he said in the Second World War.

The lightning strike, de Gaulle came up with,

Right at the end of the play, there is a

fictional scene where Petain and de Gaulle meet and Petain is not sure

whether de Gaulle is going to sentence him to death or not,

He spent his last days, a number of years, five or six years

Except for his jailers, who really, really liked him and wrote about him

afterwards, they said this was a splendid man,

kind and understanding and never, ever complained.

That is what Petain would have liked to have thought,

Do you ever have a sudden urge to go off and invade Russia?

Yes, when I heard the news I immediately did want to form

an army, but it's terribly difficult these days.

I'm in! I'm in, sir!

And The Patriotic Traitor by Jonathan Lynn

opens on Wednesday night at the Park Theatre in London.

Now, we know there's a rabbit in David Cameron's hat,

almost certainly to be pulled out in front of an awe-struck

We don't know how big the rabbit is, what colour it is or,

frankly, whether it's even a rabbit at all.

But we do know, because we keep being told,

The Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond is with me.

You need a rabbit out of that hat, don't you, because the initial signs

from the early parts of the negotiations, the things we know

about, have gone down like a lead balloon in the Tory party. People

are very unimpressed by what's been negotiated so far. What we need is a

good deal on Thursday and there's still a lot of moving parts and Mr

Goschen but it's already clear that we're going to get a clear statement

that Britain is outside the obligations of ever closer union.

That's a very important point. It's already clear that we are going to

get a framework for the relationship between the eurozone countries and

the non-users and countries, something that Gisela Stuart was

referring to earlier on as being very important. We're already seeing

the shape of a deal but there are still a lot of moving parts over the

next few days. As you'd expect, I want to pick through some of that

but overall, generally, is it the case that Britain needs to get more

than we've go shaded so far for this to be accepted? There isn't a deal

yet. There is a working draft. There are lots of moving parts and we've

got a negotiation that will run through this week and I have no

doubt will run right to the wire with some of these things only being

able to be decided by the heads of state and government on Thursday,

when they sit down in that room together. But are the broad

parameters of the draft enough? We know that we need to achieve

commitments on competitiveness, a framework for eurozone- Man on

relationships. We need to get clear wins on national sovereignty. And we

need something on access to welfare benefits and our European partners

understand that we have to have a robust deal in each of those areas

if the British people are to vote to remain inside the European Union. So

to be clear, this week further progress must be made? Of course

we've got to make process this week. There are still lots of square

brackets and blanks in the text. There is unclear language in some

places. We got to carry on working through this week, up to the

European council. If we can get the right deal of the European council

then a deal will be done. If we can't get the right deal, we'll

carry on talking. Let me read you what a large number of your party

Conservative councillors wrote to the premise of this week, 132 of

them. They said that the manifesto commitments at the time of the

election were the absolute bare minimum that could be acceptable and

they go on to say, "As these have not been met, the only responsible

and honest thing for the Conservative Party and those in it

to do is to campaign for Britain's exit from the European Union". You

make clear that if you did not get the deal you wanted on Europe you

would not rule out campaigning for Britain to leave the EU yourself and

we hope you will now unite your party and Britain in doing so. The

truth of the matter is, clearly, so far, you have not got anywhere near

the manifesto promises that you put before the British people ahead of

the election. Well, the manifesto focused on certain areas but the

package has got to be looked at as a whole and the point of having a

referendum is that everybody will make up their own mind about whether

the package, on balance, taking the rough with the smooth, is in

Britain's interests or not in Britain's interests. But as a party,

you've stood in front of the British people and said, this is what we

will do. You said, for instance, on child tax credits, if an EU

migrant's child is living abroad than they should receive no child

benefit or child tax credit, no matter how long they've worked in

the UK and no matter how much tax they have played. You've failed on

that argument, haven't you? Lets see what the packages at the end of the

day and let the kid is in the round because there may be areas where we

get more than we expected to get and areas where we get less. It would be

absurd not to look at the package in the round, all the pluses and all

the minuses, and weigh the balance. The Prime Minister made a lot of

this four-year pause before migrants can get any kind of benefits. Now,

actually, in terms of a negotiation so far, how long would it be after a

migrant arrived here from the rest of the EU and was working before the

could receive benefits? Until a few weeks ago, people were telling us it

was impossible to have any kind of period in which we treated newly

arrived migrants differently from people who were already here. But

the text that's on the table recognises that there can be a

period of four years in which people are treated differently. That's a

major step for it. What we've got to discuss is what that treatment

precisely is and that will be a subject we will discuss. That won't

be resolved before Thursday. That will be on the table. At the moment

the Eastern European members of the EU have suggested one year only,

which is a long way from four years. And in any event, the suggestion

seems to be that it will be a taper so actually, quite quickly migrants

will be getting benefits, just quite as much as they would at the moment

but those benefits will be paid. The principle that we can have a special

regime for newly arrived migrants for former years has been accepted

and is in the draft text. We will have to work with our partners now

to shake that. How does it look? How does it work? And how does it fit

into the broader picture of the steps that we need to take to reduce

the artificial attractiveness of Britain to new arrivals? We've dealt

with access to unemployment benefits, we are dealing with access

to social housing and housing benefits. These are the bits that

need be you to act and that's why they're in this text. So let's be

absolutely clear. A deal which said benefits won't be paid for the first

year would not be enough to satisfy anything like what you were

promising in the manifesto or your own party. A one-year period would

not. We've got four years, a recognition that there can be

different treatment for former careers in the text that is on the

table. A lot of people don't understand how this taper could

possibly work. Very complicated. There is a huge amount of work to

make this work because every country in the EU has a different system,

every country has a different claim and if you are taking it over former

careers, it's unbearably complicated, and some will say

almost impossible, to make it work. I don't think it's unbearably, the

gated at all. The concept of giving people 75 the scent of what others

are getting and 50 present what others are getting is not

compensated. What we've got to do is look at the actual proposals within

this four-year period. Getting agreement that we can treat new

arrivals differently for a period of four years is a major breakthrough

in a challenging, as we have done, one of the sacred cows of the

European Union ideology. It's very important to us that we are now

looking at how we treat them differently, rather than whether we

treat them differently. Marina Wheeler prominent QC marriage

to Boris Johnson said that you haven't really gone for the European

Court of Justice's jurisdiction, there are no treaty changes in this.

The legal position remains the same after this negotiation when it comes

to rights and things people complain about in the EU. The ECJ remains

supreme and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that unless

there is a treaty change and there won't be. First of all, you talked

about rights. The EC HR and all of the rights that flow from the

European Convention on human rights has nothing to do with the European

Union. Have they not been incorporated by the European court

of justice? They are referred to but that is a separate issue. Treaty

change, legally, we are still arguing that treaty change would be

the best way to enshrine some of the changes we need to make. Is there

any chance of getting that? It is not essential to give them binding

force. What is being proposed, if we eventually have treaty change or

not, in the first instance, we will have a binding international law

decision registered at the United Nations with the status of a treaty,

binding on all the member states. Binding on the European Court, to

take account of it in any decisions that it makes. We would get that

anyway because even if treaty change is agreed, it will be years before

that treaty change comes into force. The British people want to see

significant change now that is irreversible and legally binding

from day one. That means we need to use this route of an international

law decision because it is able to come into effect very quickly. Does

that mean the emergency brake which triggers the changes to benefit has

to come very quickly once this is agreed? We need to see it

implemented as quickly as possible. Another subject which is causing

alarm this morning, Syria. Isn't the truth, as we were discussing in the

paper review, that President Assad is not going to be removed from

power? In terms of a struggle to stay in power, Assad has now won? I

don't think so. The situation with regard to Assad is the same it was a

year ago. But he has the Russians backing him. It is the same as a

year ago. Whether or not Assad goes all stays ultimately will depend on

whether the Russians are prepared to use their influence to remove him --

or stays. That was the same a year ago, I remember saying it more than

a year ago in the House of Commons. One man on this planet can end the

civil war in Syria by making a phone call and that is Mr Putin. President

Putin has conducted the war in favour of Assad, pushing aside most

of the democratic opposition. For a long time we had this great belief

that there was a powerful Democratic Syrian opposition who could win this

war, that is now for the birds, they have been defeated? They haven't.

That is wrong. Russian air attack has caused attrition against the

opposition, about 150,000 moderate of the opposition fighters, I would

not call them democratic but moderate opposition fighters on the

ground. The Russians have launched an atrocious air attacks, rapidly

increasing the intensity of them over the last few weeks. That has

forced them out of some of the positions they controlled. But the

important thing is that the Syrian regime does not have the forces, the

strength and the organisation, to take control of those areas. It is a

stalemate. They do with the Russians. They don't. The Russians

are only effectively using air power, they can force the opposition

to give ground but the regime is not able, it has not shown itself able

to effectively take control of that ground. The last of the moderate

opposition are holding out in Aleppo right now and the Russians are

pounding them, Ayew calling on the Russians to stop right now? We are.

-- all you calling. But there are moderate opposition positions there

and in the outskirts of Damascus. Moderate opposition positions in the

south of the country. But the situation in Aleppo is extremely

worrying, the Russians are using carpet bombing tactics,

indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas held by oppositionists. Yes,

we demand that the comply with the obligations under international law

-- the Russians comply. And the resolution is they have signed up

to. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab countries are talking about

putting troops on the ground now to take on the Shia forces. The

Russians have said this could lead to world war, how worried should we

be? That is a gross exaggeration by the Russians. The sunny Arabs of the

golf are deeply concerned -- the sunny Arabs. Whether they are

arranging, revolutionary guard, and all whether they are Iranians

regular forces. -- Sunni Arabs. It is a deeply did stabilise in factor.

The Russians are concerned and then they should be prevailing on their

Iranian allies to withdraw their forces from Syria. Back to Europe

briefly, the question that never seems to be asked, what happens to

the rest of EU the if Britain leaves? If Mr Donald Tusk had bad

view, the whole house of cards could calm down.

I fear and many people in Europe fear that without Britain, Europe

would lurch in very much the wrong direction. Britain has been an

enormously important influence in Europe. It has been an influence for

open markets, free trade, for a derision east approach to the

economy. If we need we would be dealing with a more dangerous and

hostile and less attractive Europe? We would be dealing with a Europe

that looked less in our image. There is a real fear in Europe that if

Britain leaves, the contagion will spread. People who say we would do a

great deal with Europe if we left, we would get a great deal with

Europe, forget that the country's remaining in the European Union will

be looking over their shoulder at people in their own country saying

if the Brits can do it, why can't we? They will not have an interest

in demonstrating that we can succeed outside the European Union. We will

talk a bit more in a moment but for now, thank you.

Now over to Steph for the news headlines.

The Foreign Secretary has told this programme that he expects

negotiations over reforms to Britain's relationship

Philip Hammond said there was a working draft of a deal

on the table, but it still had many moving parts to be resolved

at the summit of European leaders in Brussels this week.

The Eurosceptic Labour MP, Gisela Stuart said she was worried

that the EU is inevitably heading towards deeper political

What worries me about this referendum, everybody keeps talking

about the consequences of a no vote and we

pretend that if we had a yes vote, the status quo would simply be

Washington has called on Turkey to halt artillery attacks

on a Kurdish militia group in northern Syria.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia have warned that they will send ground forces

into Syria, if an agreement isn't reached for a pause in the fighting.

Russia has rejected calls to change its policy of air strikes,

with the West accusing Moscow of targeting civilians.

That's all from me. The next news on BBC1 is at 1pm.

First, a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme.

Join us live from Leicester at 10am and we will debate whether defeating

so-called Islamic State in Syria needs more troops on the ground from

outside, including the west. And then Buddhism, is it too much about

the self? See you at 10am on BBC One.

Well Philip Hammond is still with me, and we've been joined again

You sit around the Cabinet table, UI ball of these guys and women, how

many of them will be on the other side when it comes to the debate? --

you eyeball. People want to wait and see what the deal is. There are one

or two people whose minds are made up but I hope there are others who

are genuinely open at looking at the deal that genuinely comes back and

considering their position. Do you think Michael Gove and Boris Johnson

will be on the same platform as you? You will need to ask them, I can't

speak for others. This point we talked about earlier on, whether we

are still underneath the influence of the European Court of Justice is

important. Surely that is the crucial question if we will get

powers back for this country, regains sovereignty, we need to deal

with the European Court of Justice? One of the big things when Philip

Hammond mentioned, we don't know how the European Court of Justice will

interpret that once it is challenged. Go back to the Danish

example in the early 90s, they have various opt outs about citizenship,

the ECJ overruled it time and time again. Unless things are in Schrage

entreaty changes and therefore cannot be challenged in the courts,

they will not be worth the paper they are written on -- unless things

are enshrined in. They will be an international law decision binding

on the member states and which the court itself confirmed. It has to

take into account. Where the heads of state and government in a binding

decision given interpretation of the treaties, the court has to take that

interpretation into account. As a lawyer, taking into account is not

the same thing as saying you can't do it. It is a very important

consideration that will guide the court. Very quickly, is it fair that

people like you are able to make the case. In the E U, while the others

in the government who don't want to stay in have to stay quiet? I will

make the case. Weighing in the EU if we get the right deal -- I will make

the case. A in. I don't know if there is a deal coming. There will

be a rabbit in the end. That's almost it for today,

thanks to all my guests. In an hour, Andrew Neil will be

here with the all the big stories We'll be back next week

when we might just have Rest assured, we'll be hearing

from the big players right here. We leave you now with one

of the defining new voices # When your heart

is broken down, down # And your head don't reach

the sky # Round the mountain

all God's children run # Round the mountain

all God's children # All God's children run run

round the mountain run