21/02/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

An historic deal by the British Prime Minister,

transforming our relationship with the rest of the EU.

Or it's a piece of transparent PR spin - which will convince nobody.

After days of haggling, and speech-making David Cameron

joins me to make his case and answer his critics -

I'm joined too by Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon -

probably for the first time, on David Cameron's side.

And I'll be talking to Nigel Farage - up until now the most vivid

campaigner for Brexit - but is he the man to lead

No apologies, that Europe, and the future of the Uk's

No apologies, that Europe, and the future of the UK's

relationship with it, dominates our show this morning -

and of course it's all over the Sunday papers too.

Here to review them, Nick Robinson - our former political editor

of course, and now with the Today programme.

And the Labour MP Kate Hoey - one of the leaders of

But first the news with Ben Thompson.

Ministers have begun campaigning to win over voters ahead of June's

referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union.

One key Conservative figure still to announce his decision

is the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson.

But there are indications this morning he will support the campaign

correspondent Eleanor Garnier reports.

The cameras were ready, even the crowds were waiting.

I will go to Parliament and propose that the

British people decide our future in Europe through an in-out

referendum on Thursday the 23rd of June.

Most of his ministers are on his side.

I think everyone thinks it's a good deal, the question is whether it's

good enough for everyone to think we should still stay in Europe.

Those who will fight him slipped out the back door.

Please join me in welcoming the Leave's

And straight to the phone banks at an out campaign headquarters.

This is Iain Duncan-Smith, I'm a member

Before a family photo of the gang of six.

How much of a struggle has it been to decide

I've found it very difficult to be on a different side

of this debate to the Prime Minister.

I hugely welcome the fact he's giving us all a choice,

not just members of the Government, but the people of the United Kingdom

But what about this man, the Mayor of London?

After weeks of speculation he is expected to confirm later

today that he'll side with the Leave campaign.

He's told friends he is genuinely conflicted.

It would be a disappointment for the Prime

Minister, but certainly not a surprise.

Eleanor Garnier, BBC News, Westminster.

Jeb Bush has pulled out of the race to become the Republican candidate

He had hoped to become the third member of the Bush family to be

elected to the White House, but ended his campaign,

after coming fourth in the South Carolina primary.

The vote was won by the billionaire businessman, Donald Trump.

In the Democratic race, Hillary Clinton secured an important

Police in the US state of Michigan say a 14-year-old girl has become

the seventh person to die in a multiple shooting.

A total of nine people were attacked in three different locations

appeared to have been targeted at random.

Police in Hungary say increasing numbers of migrants are breaching

a border fence, built last year to keep them out.

Police have caught more than 1,200 so far this month.

It follows moves by Austria, Slovenia, and Balkan countries

to limit the number being allowed through.

That's all from me, for now. Back to you, Andrew.

We think there is only one newspaper, -- story today and in

newspapers agree. Let's take back control on that banner on the front

of the Sunday Telegraph. Almost identical on the Sunday Times,

Cameron declares war on rebels. Last-ditch bid to woo Boris, we will

talk about that in a moment. The Observer, in the most

uncompromisingly pro-Cameron front-page, the choices in your

hands, I believe we will be safer and stronger in the EU, paper

backing a pro-European at the. The most interesting front-page on the

Daily Mail, exposed: Michael Gove and Boris in secret EU plot and

shady photographs of the two men in central London. Finally, Scotland on

Sunday has a picture of Donald Trump after his victory, don't put the UK

at risk. Sunday People, Leicester are dying, but that's not about

Europe!. We will start with the Mail on Sunday.

It's a wonderful Mail on Sunday production. It is wonderful, the

grainy photograph, the word exposed and secret implies they are having

an affair but when you turn to the middle pages they may be having a

political affair but their wives were both there, we should say, for

the benefit of the doubt Michael Gove's wife left earlier leaving

Boris and Michael. And he is grinning when he realises the

cameras are there and it will be printed. The key is what they agreed

at the dinner did they agree anything? We still don't know Boris

Johnson's view, although we think we know he's going to be an outer. We

think he will come out later in the day. The question is, have we seen a

process of careful consideration? Have we seen a process of pathetic

procrastination, or have we seen, as many Tories I know think, a cynical

calculation that Boris Johnson simply wanted the theatrics of the

will he or won't he moment? It's been an extraordinary and slightly

elephantine dance of the seven veils. In the end what he says

matters and people in the country who want to leave will want Boris to

be on the leave side. BoJo becomes BoGo. He is alleged to have said to

one of his own allies he was veering around all over the place like a

shopping trolley. I'm sure he is because the reality is he's been

looking to see what the Conservative grassroots are thinking and they are

thinking he's gone around the country doing lots of meetings, so

opposed to the EU that if he had any chance of becoming leader he could

not possibly have come out for the state campaign. Have used lightly

given the game away? If this is meant to be about the future of the

company wide as he care what the Conservative grassroots think?

Forgive me, this man could be our next Prime Minister. Within a year

he will be chosen not by the British electorate but Tory members. This

will he or won't he won't help. Every single minister that has come

out wanted to give their reason why and the ones staying in with heavy

hearts and all of that and all of that, they are all looking for their

own futures. Final thought on Boris who we think is watching the

programme and we will interview the Prime Minister later. Looking

forward to joining the campaign to leave. A very gracious welcome for

you there. The reason it matters is that so far there has not been a

really national figure in the Conservative Party in particular on

the Brexit side and if Boris threw his hat into the ring he'd be a

match for the Prime Minister in those debates. We have got Michael

Gove and Michael Gove coming out so brilliantly explaining why he was

coming out I think is another game change in this whole thing. This

thing today, in nearly all of the papers that cover it, it is so clear

why he has decided and is about sovereignty. Is about him saying how

personally he found it so difficult when he wants to do things. Yes,

Minister, I understand. But I'm afraid that's against EU rules and

that goes to the heart of it and the Constitution. In the end this is

about layers of law, that's the fundamental question under which

laws we are governed. Under the Lisbon and Nice treaties and

Maastricht Treaty is, they take precedent over British law and the

European single act. That is the essence Michael Gove is getting at.

It is that word often used by politicians and almost never by the

public, that photograph is striking on the front pages, it does not say

sovereignty or democracy, because even democracy seems abstract, it

says control. The message of the Leave campaign, written beautifully

by Michael Gove, is we want to control our own destiny and then we

have to get out. The message of the other side is essentially, our

security depends on sharing a little bit of power, whether it is dealing

with Putin or dealing with Iran, or climate change. It is a visceral or

emotional choice in the. You were at the famous Grassroots Out big

meeting on the night of the deal. George Galloway was the secret guest

and people walked out as a result. The Sunday Times has a story which

is not true. It advises hundreds of people walked out but the reality is

we were running late. This was the third grassroots meeting, we've done

meetings of 2000, 3000, and this was a big one in Westminster and George

Galloway came right at the end. Maybe a dozen, 20 people walked out.

But if these people who had written this story, James Lyons and Tim

Shipman, had been there they would have seen the warm response they

gave him. In the this will be a campaign about the elites, the

establishment, lining up the political leaders, the media and

also some things, and it's going to be against the people. We have to

work with people we don't particularly like and I will work

with people I don't particularly like and others I like a lot. Last

time in 1975 we had in power and Tony Blair on the same side and that

didn't do well for the No campaign, it was incoherent. We had only just

joined the Common market, trading relationship, and it is so

complicated with all of these treaties you mentioned command this

is the first time the real British public are getting their say. That

is why all of these articles today, even from some ministers, which you

have got a good example of. One of the most fascinating things in the

papers today, on the one hand you get figures not frankly well-known

to the public but may end up being candidates to be the next Prime

Minister, Priti Patel the Daily Mail. This is a minister saying of

David Cameron in effect, by scaremongering the public, by trying

to frighten them to vote to remain they are talking down our economic

aspects and have no confidence in the ingenuity and entrepreneurism

that is vibrant and dynamic across the country. And then you turn in

the paper, also the Mail on Sunday, to someone backing a bet Cameron,

Sajid Javid but he says he's doing it with a heavy heart, his opening

sentence is: it is clear now the UK should never have joined the EU and

he's in favour! If this is trying to get people to march to the voting

booths it is pretty horrible, not very inspiring. Theresa Villiers has

done another very good piece. She is particularly important in this

because she is Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Northern

Ireland may be a small country but people vote there. This will play an

important part and she says it is to the same thing. She is

understandably trying to be nice about the Prime Minister. She says I

do not believe this scare stories about our future outside the EU. It

raises the fascinating political prospect that David Cameron may go

down in history as the man who saves Britain's membership of the European

Union, the poll shows clearly we could stay in. But it could destroy

the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party has been busily

trying to destroy itself since I was a child on this issue. That poll got

it so wrong, it was the worst poll in the General Election. There are

others. Sajid Javid's fundamental point is despite everything, the

turmoil and turbulence if we left would be too much. It is interesting

because he is ex-Treasury and it's interesting because he says we are

on the edge of a big economic downturn and things are going to get

bloody economically and this is not the time to get out. This is the

Business Secretary and a close ally of the Chancellor who would have had

lots of pressure from big business and I'm sure he would have said to

big business, lots of other businesses will say different

things, but about 80% of the FTSE 100 are in favour, and saying for

goodness sake, there is real economic anxiety at the moment and

huge security worries in terms of Isis and Russia so don't take the

risk. On the other hand there is the risk of staying in. Of course. We

have quoted everybody this morning except David Cameron who is also all

over the papers, particularly the Sunday Times and the Sun newspaper.

It should be EU. He is saying here he believes the Sun newspaper

readers will be the key voters in this. It is a real tribute to the

Sun newspaper readers. I think he will be mistaken. Many of the Sun

newspaper readers will be wanting to get out, many I have spoken to. The

headline tomorrow, it is BoGo. There speaks annex newspaper editor! Lots

of your viewers will be interested in the referendum which is during

the heart of the European football championships when Northern Ireland,

Wales and England have all qualified, and the week of the

referendum we will know whether the three countries have gone on to the

next stages. And here in the Sun newspaper they point out the ball

exit in a week, we could have a situation where we leave the EU and

our teams all leave, but hopefully we will be leaving the EU and all of

our teams will go through to the next round. Talking about voters and

things ahead of us, the American elections, we've also been obsessed

with that, those of us who are political nutters have been watching

it and it's been an extraordinary day yesterday. Trump romping ahead.

We always thought he would trip up, no sign of it at all. There was or

was this moment that you would get this appeal is, he's successful to

start with. He will blow up somewhere. Once again the

establishment have proved not to be in control of events which is good

news for Kate and her side of the gym and. Trump looks on course and

Hillary Clinton saw off Bernie Sanders. Winning on the Liberal

Democrat side, that was important for her. It is beginning to look

like Trump versus Clinton. That is extraordinary because both of them

stir passions of the people who love them, love them, but many more

people and this is true of both candidates, absolutely loathe and

fear them. Therefore, you have an election which is not great for

democracy if that's the choice because there will be many Americans

who simply will not want to vote for either of them. Trump in many ways

tells is why Boris matters. Not because Trump's politics is the same

as Boris, they disagree on many things. Hair! What Trump has shown

capacity to do in the media driven! To age is absolutely obsess the

public and he draws cameras to him. The public are fed up with

politicians. That is what is happening in America. I hope Obama

listens to some of these people and when he comes over here soon stops

telling British people how to vote in the referendum. That would go

Danbury well. I will tell him when he comes onto the sofa. -- go down

very well. Nicola Sturgeon has said that

as Scotland's First Minister, she'll be in the forefront

of the campaign to stay But as SNP leader, she wants

a rather different EU from David Scotland's government wants migrants

and favours the kind of social She joins me from our

Glasgow studio. Good morning, Andrew. This is an

important moment for Scotland as well as the UK. You have been

watching David Cameron's negotiation. What did you make of

that? The negotiation and the outcome of the negotiation is

somewhat immaterial. If, like me, you're passionate about remaining in

the European Union, nothing that came out of the negotiation will

change your mind. If you're determined to Broad to leave the

European Union, there is nothing that will shift your opinion. If I

am concerned at all about the negotiation, those people who are

undecided, who have been encouraged by David Cameron to look at the

outcome, to base their opinion on, will be disappointed by it, because

it did not live up to many of the expectations that he himself

created. For me, that is all the more reason why it is time to get

away from the narrow issues involved in that negotiation onto the big

picture. Why is it better for us to remain within the European Union?

That is the campaign I look forward to taking part in. If an independent

Scotland was at the EU table, you would want a presumably different EU

than David Cameron? David Cameron and I will both cast votes to stay

in the European Union on the June 23rd. But I suspect for different

reasons. David Cameron once the social and deployment protections in

Europe watered down. For me, this is part of the reason for being in the

European Union. If we come out of the European Union, Eric Cameron's

majority Conservative government would be unfettered when it came to

employment rights or social protection. We have a different

vision, and perhaps in a referendum that is no bad thing. We will appeal

to different strands of opinion. You will almost certainly get new powers

over aspects of fiscal policy in Scotland. That would enable you to

top benefits for migrants who came into Scotland. Would you do that? We

are in the midst of a discussion about the fiscal arrangements. That

is not settled yet. I have no proposals to do that. We will put

forward proposals for the use of new tax and well Priya powers in the

run-up to the Scottish Parliament elections. -- and welfare powers. Of

course people are concerned about migration, but European Union

migration into the UK, and the evidence shows this, has a net

economic benefit, rather than an economic detriment. We take a

different view. It is important that the upturn to viewers heard in this

debate. Do you think what is being done to EU migrants in this country

is fair to them? When you start going down this road, I think the

danger is the freedom of movement that is one of the underpinning

principles of the European Union starts to be fragmented. I am sure

David Cameron would be one of the first to complain of people from the

UK grad migrated to other member states of the European Union, and

there are many of them, started to be discriminated against. What has

come out of the negotiation does not add up to all that much. I do not

think it will change many opinions, apart from those who are undecided,

people who have been encouraged by David Cameron all along to look at

the outcome and what he has delivered. It has not lived up to

what he said some months ago. It was not a big enough rabbit. Can I ask

you about something else? We have talked about this before, but it is

no much more on the horizon, what happens if the UK overall votes to

leave the EU but Scotland does not? With that definitely trigger a

Scottish referendum? Almost certainly, I think that would be the

demand of people in Scotland. Let me say this very clearly, I hope this

scenario does not arise. I do not want to see it arise, I hope the UK

boards to stay in the EU for overriding of different reasons. I

would say to the in campaign in this referendum, do not make the same

mistakes that the no campaign did in the Scottish referendum by being

negative about everything. If you catch Jermaine Baker that campaign,

the no campaign said that if Scotland voted yes, our membership

of the EU would be at risk. That was rubbish. If a couple of years later,

we find yourself, having voted to stay in the European Union, and

taken out against our well, I think something will have to happen. We

would have to be independent, that is inescapable. If Scotland was out

of the EU as part of Britain and then separated from the UK and went

back into the EU, we would then have to have a border between Scotland

and England, because England would be outside the EU. A number of

aspects of that would have to be debated in the context. I take

nothing for granted about Scottish opinion in this referendum, but all

the opinion polls suggest there will be a significant Broad to stay in

the European Union. Scotland has always seen itself as a European

country. I think we would be better served as an independent member

states. If we were taken out of the European Union when we expressly

said we wanted to stay in, that would trigger a demand for a second

independence referendum. I am getting anecdotal, but I know people

who voted no in 2014, who are passionate about their vote, who

would change their minds in this scenario. That is inevitable. I will

be campaigning for Scotland to vote to stay in. I am not sure if anyone

else in the rest of the UK will want to listen to my opinion, but if they

do, I will seek to persuade people across the UK as well. At the start,

I said you're not often on the same side as David Cameron. Would he be

welcome in Scotland, would you share a platform with him? I am not sure

it would help his cause. He should think twice about that. During the

independence referendum, we were overjoyed every time he made a foray

into Scotland because we thought it ratcheted up votes for the

independence campaign. My reasons for wanting to be in the EU a rather

different to David Cameron's. If we appeal to our own strands of

opinion, we will maximise the chances of a vote to stay in. Nicola

Sturgeon, a friendly warning, thank you so much for joining us.

Now to the weather, and it seems to be swinging rather wildly

between deep winter and hints of spring, so what's in prospect

Over to Jay Wynne in the weather studio.

Thank you. It looks like there is more of the same. We started the day

today with a massive temperature contrast across the United Kingdom,

ten or 11 degrees first thing across the southern half. By the afternoon

we will be up to 14 and in the south, but in the north, on the four

degrees. They called air will win and we will be back to single

figures by Mandy and choose to. On Wednesday, the dividing line is the

weather front which is not moving fast. Wintry showers in Scotland.

South of that, lots of cloud. Dry in the south-east, and milder across

Wales and the Midlands. For the latter part of the afternoon, the

weather front moves south. It will bring some rain with it. It will get

stuck across the southern counties tomorrow. Rather Dampier, but for

the Midlands North, we will see good spells of sunshine. Some showers

dotted around, and the temperature around 7 degrees. A cold start to

the day on Tuesday, with frost, and similar on Wednesday. Dry and bright

weather through both days, with some showers dotted around. The emphasis

on reasonable but chilly conditions. Many thanks.

We don't yet know which of the groups in favour of Brexit

will be chosen to lead the official out campaign.

That's a decision for the Electoral Commission.

Whatever happens, arguing the case at every opportunity,

as he has been for more than a decade, will be Ukip's

leader, Nigel Farage, and he's with me now.

Good morning. Starters orders, we are. Whatever you think of the Prime

Minister's deal, he has at least fought the good fight. Let's start

by being generous. He has argued very hard, night after night he has

been fighting the case. He did not ask for much, all here as this for

minor changes to benefits, and a couple of promises that might go in

the next treaty. The truth is they cannot deliver this deal because the

European Parliament can strike down the benefits deal, and the European

Court of Justice can rule out everything else. To say to people,

vote for this deal in a referendum when you cannot guarantee delivering

it seems to be a weak position. I think lots of people who did not

vote Ukip, who do not know what they think

about Europe, they will look at this deal and think, hold on, he has a

four year tapered break for benefits on migrants. Nigel Farage as for a

five-year one. He has got something on sending child benefit abroad.

This is not the issue. We are paying over ?50 million a day in a

membership fee. Nothing has been done to change that. The biggest

issue is our Parliament and courts cannot strike down European law that

is against our interests. Those are the issues that people will make

their big decisions on in this referendum. Not the marginal issue

of migrant benefits. Let's start with migration. You said the Prime

Minister had been scaremongering when he suggested that the closure

of the Caley camp would follow us leaving the EU, but the French

interior Minister backed him up, as did the deputy mayor of Cali. If we

left the EU, there would be no reason for the French to put up with

this jungle on their side of their border. They would say, through the

tunnel, or Hugo. If they come through the tunnel, we do not have

to let people in. What was laughable about what the Prime Minister said,

he suggested if people came through the tunnel and into the naked

kingdom, they would set up camps. They would not, they would disburse.

What would you do in the new order, post-charity-mac? Be much tougher on

who could come into the country. I want us to have an still in style

points system. Let's have immigration that is based on merit.

Let's stop discriminating against the Commonwealth in favour of

Bulgaria or Rumania. That is what it out of ten British people want.

Let's go back to the real gritty practicalities. We have left the EU,

the French have no reason to stop people going across the EU, people

are pouring in from Africa and the Middle East, they want to be in

Britain for all sorts of reasons. The French have a tunnel, ports,

vessels, they just arrive. What do we do? We honour the principles of

the Geneva Convention and say to anyone trying to claim asylum in

Britain, sorry, you have to claim that in the last safe country you

came through. It is not difficult, you just need a tough British

government. People would still come through in large numbers, would we

build a camp in Kent? We would not build one anyway -- anywhere. We

would not block up the tunnel. Lots of business comes through the

tunnel. We would make it clear that if they come, they would be sent

back. You're not allowed in, it is simple. Again, on the subject of

what happens after I Brexit, we are unclear about the process. The Prime

Minister has said there would be turmoil and turbulence. We have

heard all that. It would take two years to negotiate the terms of our

exit, so there would be two years of uncertainty. Two years of complete

and -- complete certainty. Everything would continue as normal

during the negotiations, but we would not have to accept any new

European laws. What is important is not the speed, it is getting it

right. That is what matters to people. During that time we will be

completely protected. What the Prime Minister Larayedh is saying today,

and making it clear in the Sunday Times, he says we would not be able

to access the single market, unless we accepted the free movement of

people. That is completely untrue. The Norwegians and the Swiss... The

Norwegians voted against joining the European Union and against the will

of the Norwegian people a Norwegian government signed them up to

Schengen and there is a clamour for Norway to come out of showing. If

you think about trade across the world, the deals America has, the

deals even the European Union has nowhere in the world do people say

that a trade freely you have to have free movement of people, it is a

complete red herring. Except up to now the EU itself has tried Tidemand

the free movement of people and a price tag for getting into their

markets. Know it has not. The EU has trade deals across other parts of

the world which bear no membership fee and no free movement of people.

-- tried to demand. R2 exceptions, Swiss land and Norway. Norway sells

a vast amount of its goods overseas, 75% to the European marketplace. And

pays money directly to poor countries in Eastern Europe. Let's

move on to countries that are much bigger, Canada which has a trade

deal which took seven deals to negotiate. You are absolutely right.

The idea that are elected European Commissioner should make our trade

deals on our behalf -- and unelected European Commissioner, in a modern

global economy is crackers. We should make our own deals. The Swiss

make their own trade deals and have more free trade agreements around

the world than we do because they do it for themselves and their

interests. If it seven years to negotiate a trade deal, that would

be a difficult seven years for British exports. Iceland has 300,000

people. The Prime Minister will tell you later we are too small to

negotiate our own trade deals. We're not big enough. Perhaps he doesn't

think we are good enough. Iceland negotiated their own free-trade deal

with China. If Iceland can do it I'm certain that the world's fifth

biggest economy can do it. To win the referendum you have to win over

people who are not particularly obsessed what interested in the EU

issue will stop in the end I suspect it will come down to eight visceral

feeling, -- a visceral feeling. It will come down to those people who

think on balance it is safer to be in. Nigel Farage and others will say

it will be fine, crossed fingers, come with us. It's the unknown, we

don't know the kind of Britain we will be if we leave and we don't

understand and have a picture in our head of what it will be like. It is

safer to stay in. The Prime Minister says it is a leap in the dark but

let me shed some light on it, if we vote to leave the European Union

there is one certainty, we will be in charge of our own country, make

our own laws, run our own ministerial departments. Michael

Gove's, yesterday that everyday ministers are told, sorry, Minister,

you can't do this, it's against EU rules, shows the extent to which

we've given away control of our own future. We will be in charge. If we

vote in to remain, in a union whose currency is failing, whose migrant

crisis has led according to the chief of Europol this week, to up to

5000 Islamist extremists coming into Europe in the space of the last year

and we will be part of a Europe that wants Turkey to be a member within

five years. You mentioned Michael Gove. Would you accept you are a

divisive or a Marmite politician? That is the talk in Westminster and

the talk amongst the Tories. If you look at the research and polling

into this those people that believe in the European project and the free

movement of people, the more I appear on programmes like this the

more upset they get and the more they dislike me. Angst the undecided

voters I have a potentially positive affect. -- amongst the undecided

voters. They will listen to what I have to say in the referendum

campaign. The truth is, there are only half a dozen people in the

referendum campaign who can shape public opinion and I'm one of them.

It's not about one person. Let's move onto two people because the

photograph of you and George Galloway, enemies on the other side

of the ultimate say that's the best recruiting poster they could have,

it goes back to Tony Benn and Enoch Powell and the impression of

incoherence. Back in the 70s there were very few political or public

figures that appeared on no platforms. On that night the Respect

Party were on the platform and so were the Conservative Party,

ruefully the economist, so was a taxi driver, so William Cash, Kate

Hoey who was here this morning. The point about Grassroots Out is

bringing people together from across the spectrum. I don't think there is

a single domestic policy, in many cases foreign policy, on which

George Galloway and I would agree, he has said is obliging things about

me. I have got one here. Andrew, sometimes in life and issue comes

along that is bigger than traditional differences and this

question of getting back control of our country, living in a democracy,

means what we have done in Grassroots Out is we have cast aside

previous quarrels and differences and we will work together. Is there

a line to be drawn in terms of this broad coalition? If the English

Defence League, or Britain first wanted to join, would you have them?

I don't think we would for one moment and if the British National

Party still existed that would have given us a problem but we would have

said no. I'm sure we would have said no. We have got one of the most

broadly -based coalitions that has ever been seen in produce politics,

we want to work with everybody and we have to reach out to large parts

of this country. However controversial George Galloway is, he

does speak to a large Muslim community in Britain, he speaks to

people at the moment who are on the remain in side and it will be a big

team effort. Final question, do you hope later today Boris will join

your side and would you like to see him as one of the leaders of the

brakes? Absolutely, he's one of the half a dozen people who reaches out

to a large number of voters and we'd love to see BoGo is the headline

tomorrow, that would be great. You are fingers crossed.

In a moment, I'll be talking to the Prime Minister -

but first, a quick look at what's coming up on BBC One,

Join us live from Cambridge at 10am when we will ask if the Catholic

Church is serious about confronting child abuse. We have Pete Saunders,

the leading campaigner sidelined from the Pope's commission. With NHS

bed blocking a major problem, should we be doing more to care for our

elderly relatives. And atheism, is it the rational choice? We will see

you at 10am on BBC One. The Prime Minister said yesterday that as a

result the toughest deal that UK would be safer, stronger and better

off within Europe -- as a result of his deal.

But he hasn't convinced all his Cabinet colleagues -

or, yet, the Mayor of London, Boris Johnon.

So David Cameron is working on another plan, to entrench

win over the millions of people in the referendum. You must be very

tired. I had a decent night's sleep and it

was important work. I want to go through some of the detail of the

work but before we do, 2 million people watching and probably Boris

Johnson, can you tell them why they should vote to stay in the EU

despite the things they have heard against? I want what is best for

Britain and what is best for Britain is staying in a reformed European

Union because we will be better off safeguarding our position in this

massive single free market we have in Europe, I think we will be

stronger in the world being able to get things done, whether that is

making sure our country is safe and our people are safe and I think we

will fight terrorism and criminality better and we will be safer in the

EU because we can work with our partners, strength in numbers in a

dangerous world. That I think is a positive choice, whereas I think a

leap in the dark with uncertainty already in our world, why take a

further risk? You don't need to, we have a better deal now. In terms of

the detail of the deal you promised before the election that no children

of EU migrants would be getting benefits as a result, you have not

got that, have you? What we have got, which I think it's a big

achievement, new arrivals will get child benefit, not that British

rates but at a rate that reflects the cost of living in their country,

and for existing people here over the next few years we will move to a

system where they get the lower rate of child benefit too. These are

things that many people thought were impossible to achieve, not least

your last guest on the programme who argued for welfare restrictions,

said they were very important and now we've got them seems to say they

are irrelevant. We will come onto that later. I want to establish in

terms of clarity and being honest to people watching, what you wanted in

the manifesto you have not quite achieved on child benefits. You said

no children, however long they had worked and however long they had

been here, not at all. I'm happy to look at the manifesto and what we

promised, getting out of ever closer union, would got out of ever closer

union. It is a negotiation. You can see in each case what I asked for

and what we got. We got many things that people said were simply not

achievable. Nigel Farage and others said you will never get Britain out

of ever closer union and we have. This means the best of both worlds.

We will come back to that. We are out of the things we don't want to

be in, the euro, the no Borders agreement and the ever closer union

but we keep full access and say over the single market and political

Corporation to keep our country safe. Sticking with benefits, the

same is true, we didn't get what we wanted on child benefit and the

overall benefit package for EU migrants coming in because it was

going to be four years of nothing and now it's four years of tapered

increasing benefits. That's right, what we said we wanted was you

should not get something for nothing, you have to pay into the

system before getting something out of it and you won't get full access

to the inner work benefits system for four years. What I've achieved

that is even stronger is this mechanism will last for seven years.

Let's say we get it in place in 2017, it will still be operating in

2024 and people won't be getting full benefits until 2028. They will

be getting some. Imagine me as a Hungarian arriving in this country,

how long do I have to work here before getting any benefits at all?

If you come here, even in 2024 you are not going to get full access to

the in work benefits until 2028. You say the full benefits, how long

until I get anything? We have set out that you will get nothing to

start with and you don't get full access until after four years, and

now we have to settle the details and put that in place, which we

will. You don't actually know? You will get something? You get no

benefits to start with and you don't get full access for four years.

Everyone has to pay in before they get out. Something people said we

would not achieved on something that has been achieved. Sorry, so far as

you are aware now, after six months, I could get 90% of benefits? No, it

will be phased over four years. We don't know the phases. We will

settle all of that later, but it's an important move because people

want a country where there is no something for nothing, you don't

come here and immediately claim benefits, you must pay in first and

I think this is important. The benefits deal is is complicated

because we will pay a proportion of benefits paid in 27 different

countries at different rates at different times. For a work and

pensions department struggling to introduce Universal Credit for six

years, is this plausible? It is absolutely doable, it's not a

difficult calculation, you just have to work out the relative cost of

living in different countries and therefore paid that level of child

benefit. Iain Duncan-Smith agrees with this, does he? This is all

deliverable otherwise I wouldn't have agreed to it and I think it

meets what we set out in our manifesto and the commitments we

made. I would make this point because it was interesting listening

to Nigel Farage. If we were to leave the EU and tried to insist on full

access to the single market like Norway has for instance, every other

country that has got that sort of deal has had to accept the free

movement of people and a contribution to the EU budget. He

says that is in the not true. I will come onto that but it would be

ironic if we left the EU, negotiated our way back into full access for

the single market, and then wouldn't be able to exercise these welfare

restrictions I have just negotiated. What Nigel Farage was saying, and of

course this is important, there is the option of having a trade deal

with the EU. You can look at all of the trade deals and they do not

cover every industry, this is crucial. Canada has done quite a

good one. It hasn't been finished and has been going for seven years

and this goes to the heart of the document, if we remain in a reformed

EU you know what you will get, you know how to do business, create jobs

and continue with our economic recovery. If we leave, seven years

potentially of uncertainty, and at the end of the process you still

can't be certain that our businesses will have full access to the market,

so it could cost jobs, it could mean overseas businesses not investing in

Britain. It would be a step into the dark and real risk and uncertainty

and that's the last thing we need in our country. When it comes to a lot

of people on the other side of the document the fundamental question is

sovereignty. Can you look me or the camera in the eye and say as a

result of this negotiation Britain has control over her own laws?

Absolutely. What we have got is getting out of ever closer union so

we are best of both worlds. I will come onto the sovereignty question

because it is important. We are going to be in the single market, in

political Corporation to keep the world and people safe. But out of

the projects we don't like them out of the euro and no Borders

agreement. On sovereignty, of course if Britain were to leave the EU that

might give you a feeling of sovereignty but you have to ask

yourself, is it real? Would you have the power to help businesses to make

sure they were not discriminated against in Europe? You would not.

Would you have the power to insist European countries share a border

information with us so that we know what terrorists and criminals

The big truth about this is that the old EU, with its treaties, the

Lisbon Treaty, the NICE treaty, all the rest of them, or hanging our

laws, it is an overcentralised, massive plundering machine. It

carries on. Because we are under those treaties, we carry on under

it? We are not only out of the euro, we are out of the no Borders

agreement and ever closer union. This depends upon a treaty of

undefined scope at an undefined time, and with new leaders we do not

even know about. It is taken on trust. First of all, what was agreed

by 20 prime ministers and presidents, every EU country on

Friday evening, that in itself is an international law decision, a treaty

that will be deposited at the UN. It is legally binding and irreversible.

It can be reversed if all 28 countries, including me, say, we do

not want this any more. That is what John Major said in 1992 when the

Danes got there are legally binding irreversible agreement which was

then destroyed. The Danish had the protocol to give them some special

status in the EU. 23 years on that special status continues. It has

survived. Not only have 20 countries made is legally binding decision, we

also have, in two vital areas, the commitment to treaty change, to

carve Britain out of ever closer union. Wearing the bits of Europe we

want to be in but out of those we do not want to be in. Crucially, and

this is a more technical issue, but it is hard, they lose a treaty

change to make sure that not only we can keep our currency forever, but

also the pound and our businesses cannot be discriminated against in

Europe. This is important, because to me, the weakness of the leave

campaign is they forget that even if you leave, the EU still exists, it

is on your doorstep. What I want with this deal is to make sure we

can never be discriminated against. Leave the EU and your businesses and

financial services can be discriminated against. That is not

much you can do about that. Meanwhile we are under supreme EU

law. I know Michael Gove is a friend of yours and you must be

disappointed by his decision, what he has put things very clearly with

characteristic crispness. He says that our membership of the EU

prevents us from being able to change massive swathes of law, and

stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which

affect all our lives, laws which govern citizens in this country are

decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and

cannot throw out. He is absolutely right, isn't he? On the sovereignty

issue, we should stand back from moment and recognise that the

referendum is an enormous act of British sovereignty, British people

saying, let's make a choice. The second point, sovereignty really

means, I you able to get things done, to change things?

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE What about supreme law? If you

cannot give your businesses access to European markets and keep your

people safe, if you cannot insist on passenger information, the terrorist

information we need, you are not more in charge of your destiny,

you're less in charge of your destiny. There is this crucial

point, if you leave the EU and then wonderful, unimpeded access to the

single market, the other countries who have got that have had to sign

up to all the rules of the EU without having a say. After your

negotiation in Brussels, you suggested you were going to

introduce some new mechanism or law in this country to enhance

sovereignty. Are you? Yes, we are going to set out in the coming days

proposals that I think I have announced before on this programme,

to make clear that the British Parliament is sovereign. We have

chosen to join the EU and we can choose to leave the EU. It is

important work to put that down. Does it matter so long as we are

under the treaties? There is no lot this Parliament to pass that gets us

out of those treaties. What you can do is put beyond doubt in people's

minds. For a lot of people, this is important. It is an act of

sovereignty, holding the referendum. It is important for people to know

that in the end, what our Parliament does, our Parliament cannot undo. It

is sovereign. I am passionate and love the institutions, the

Constitution we have in our country. I do not love the institutions of

Brussels, but I may go clear determination, what will make

Britain stronger, what will make us safer, what will enable us to

protect our people? It is to get the best of both worlds in this amended

EU. Is it possible to give more powers to Supreme Court to somehow

keep back the ever encroaching world of the European Court of Justice,

which is Michael Gove says, ministers sit there and they see

this legislation coming across their desks and they are told they cannot

do anything about it? Countries with written constitutions have sometimes

been able to not only assert the sovereignty of their own parliament,

but to go further and say that those constitutional principles have to be

taken into account. You're trying to get me to pre-empt this on your

programme but you will have to wait. I will as Q1 easy question about

this. Are you suggesting we need a written constitution in this

country? I am not making that argument. We should not have to do

that in order to give to ourselves what some other countries have

managed. You will have to wait for the detailed proposals but I think

they are important. Let's turn to the politics of this, not only

Michael Gove, one of your closest friends, has come out on the other

side. Boris Johnson, who is watching this interview, all the drumbeats

seem to say he is going to the Brexit side as well. The

Conservative Party, right to the top, is deeply split on this? We had

a very civilised cabinet meeting in which the people around the table

agreed that the deal made in Brussels was a good deal. 23 of 29

agreed that Britain is better off in a reformed European Union. People

like Michael and Iain Duncan Smith, all their political lives,

particularly Michael, they have believed that Britain would be

better off outside the EU. That is why we have this position in place

that people can campaign in a personal capacity. I am sad that a

close friend will be on a different side of this are given, but we

respect each other's positions. We will make the case accordingly. As

to Boris... Talk to him directly. I would say to Boris what I say to

everyone else, that we will be safer, stronger, better off inside

the EU. The prospect of linking arms with Nigel Farage and George

Galloway and taking a leap into the dark is the wrong step for a

country. If Boris and others really care about being able to get things

done in our world, the EU is one of the ways we get them done. We are

members of Nato, the UN, the IMF, I kid about Britain being able to fix

things. Whether it is stopping pirates of the African coast,

closing down a legal migration routes, closing down smugglers,

standing up to Vladimir Putin with sanctions, whether it is the

sanctions we put in place to get Iran to abandon its nuclear

programme, having that seat at the table in the EU, just as being a

member of Nato as a vital way of protecting our value, powers and

influence in the world. I do not see this as an exercise of national

vanity. This is about national interest. Britain is the fifth

largest economy in the world. We can succeed whatever we do. But having

sat here as Prime Minister for six years, if you ask me of we will be

safer and stronger and better off in or out, I say we will be better off

in. I will argue that for the next five months. If the British people

make a different position, I will do everything in my power to

implemented as best I can. But I am clear this is the right thing for

Britain to do. You have tried very hard on this negotiation. It is

beginning to look like behind you did was a coordinated campaign of

Brexit, people working against you. Do you feel in any sense betrayed?

Knives on your back as you head back through the tunnel? Not at all. The

cabinet meeting yesterday was very productive. Everyone back to the

dealer and the date. It is undeniable we will be able to stop

people's welfare benefits, it is undeniable we are out of ever closer

union. A crucial point, we will keep currency and British firms can never

be discriminated against while there is a parallel -- parallel currency

of the euro. In the Conservative Party, as in the Labour Party, and

you have heard from Kate Hoey, some people believe we will be better off

out. I think it is a risk, a leap in the dark, and it would weaken our

ability to get things done, are sovereignty. The choice is not very

far away. If we do leave the EU, if Brexit happens, these are dangerous

times economically. What happens to the rest of the EU? Does it carry on

unchanged? It would lose one of its strongest players. It would lose the

country that argues the most for free trade deals and the single

market. It would not go away. In a way, this is one of the weaknesses

of the case for leaving. Patrick McLoughlin pitted brilliantly

Cabinet yesterday. He said in the way only he can, I would love to

live in Utopia as well, but I have a feeling that when we get to Utopia,

the EU will still be there. This is a hard-headed calculation about what

is best for British people, how do we safeguard jobs and livelihoods,

how do we fight terrorism, how do we make sure that we are strong in the

West in a dangerous world, in a world where you have Vladimir Putin

to the East, and Isil to the south. You stay strong by sticking with

your neighbouring countries, your partners and friends. The

organisation is not perfect. It has got better. What can be done to

improve it. But if you leave the EU, the EU. Reforming, and probably get

worse, and that would impact does badly. If we are outside the EU, the

euro goes on as a currency. Let me take you back to this unhappy

prospect of Britain voting to leave the EU. Everything is on a knife

edge, no one knows what is going to happen. Lasting, I asked you if you

would stay on as Prime Minister, and you said, you bet. If that happens,

you would go down in history as the man who got Britain out of the EU

against your own will. That would be catastrophic? I stood, and the

Conservative Party stood, or in a clear manifesto. We would have a

renegotiation and have a referendum. We are meeting those conditions. The

renegotiation is complete, after exhaustive work, travelling across

Europe to every single Prime Minister Larayedh president, getting

a better deal for Britain. No we meet the promise to have the

referendum. The people of our country will make a sovereign

decision. They will instruct the Prime Minister Larayedh to stay in a

reformed European Union and fight for the interests of Britain that

way, or to leave. I will need their instruction and answer their

instruction, whatever it is. That is my job. Michael Gove, Boris Johnson,

Zac Goldsmith, they are falling away one by one. Not at all. The

overwhelming majority of the Cabinet thinks we are better off to remain

in European Union. I am sure somebody will try and painted as the

establishment against the rebel Alliance. We do not get much more

establishment than the Lord Chancellor and the leader of the

house of Corbyn -- House of Commons. I have many things to say about

Jeremy Corbyn, but I would not describe him as being a member of

the establishment. On my side will be the Liberal Democrats, the Green

party, trade unionists. I do happy about this? Yes, because this

question is so much bigger than any political party or politician. It is

about the future of country for our children and grandchildren. What

sort of country do we want to live in. I would say, let us have a big,

bold Britain, doing great things in the world, making a strongest --

stronger, more prosperous and safer. Thank you very much indeed, Prime

Minister. That's all we have

time for this morning. Thanks to the Prime Minister

and all my guests. On the Sunday Politics in an hour,

Jo Coburn will be talking to the pro-Brexit Cabinet

minister Chris Grayling, and the Shadow Foreign

Secretary, Hilary Benn. Join me again at the same time

next week, but for now, For waking us up...

CHRIS EVANS: Good morning, friends. For not just watching,

but living too.