28/02/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

Leading Tories who want us out of the European Union

are now in no doubt about the Prime Minister's anger.

He thumped Boris in the Commons and Michael Gove has

I'm joined today by Iain Duncan Smith.

On the EU, he's one of David Cameron's sternest

But we mustn't think of this as simply a Tory Story.

Angela Eagle, one of Jeremy Corbyn's big hitters, is strongly pro-EU.

Can she really claim the same for her leader?

No hit TV series in recent years has been

as radical and surprising as prison drama

If you know it, you'll know who I mean by Crazy Eyes.

Uzo Aduba is now in London in a gritty play and I've been

talking to her about among other things Donald Trump.

And our review of the papers - hold on, how relevant are papers

Buzzfeed is a key source of digital journalism

and its political editor Jim Waterson joins us,

And yet this week we get a new newspaper -

The New Day - it's Editor Alison Phillips is here and waving the flag

for what we used to call Fleet Street, Tom Newton Dunn

The Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny has admitted that the coalition

government has lost the general election.

Exit polls indicate that Fine Gael has suffered heavy losses

Weeks of negotiations are now expected before a new

Our Ireland Correspondent Chris Buckler reports.

Across Ireland the Celtic although is still to be completed. While it

is unclear who all of the winners are the Irish Prime Minister knows

his party Fine Gael is in danger of losing its grip on power. -- across

Ireland all of the counting is still to be completed. We don't know the

figures for all of the other parties and groupings yet. I need to know

that before I decide what is the best thing to do, given my

responsibility and duty. There has been a significant protest vote

against the two government parties. That has meant success for

independent, and the austerity, and colourful candidates. Sinn Fein has

made gains, becoming a force in politics in the Republic. One thing

is for certain, this change will continue. There isn't a progressive

government elected this time. It is only a matter of time before one is.

The main opposition party, whose support collapse at the last

election, has gone better-than-expected. But with a

vote between new rivals, small parties, and independent candidates,

it is not clear how a stable government how all will be formed.

Hillary Clinton has won a resounding victory in the race to become

the Democratic presidential candidate.

She easily beat her rival Bernie Sanders in the South Carolina

The win puts her in a strong position ahead of this week's

Super Tuesday contests, when 11 states declare their results.

Reports are coming in of air strikes in northern Syria a day after a deal

to halt the fighting came into effect. Several areas near the

northern city of Aleppo are said to have been attacked. It is not clear

which groups were targeted. Russia had said it would continue to bomb

designated terrorist groups during the truce. IS militants and the

Al-Qaeda leader linked al-Nusra are not part of the deal.

Britain's most senior civil servant is being summoned by MPs to explain

why cabinet ministers who oppose EU membership are being denied access

Last week, Sir Jeremy Heywood issued guidance saying the Civil Service

would support the government in making the case for the UK

He's been called to explain this position to the cross-party

Stars of the screen will be taking to the red carpet later,

This year's ceremony has been over-shadowed by the controversy

The film, The Revenant is the front-runner,

with nominations in 12 categories, including Leonardo DiCaprio

I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

It may also win longest film category. All British journalists

have been beaten about the head to make the referendum interesting and

exciting. A good job on the front of The Mail on Sunday. Boris Johnson's

sister Rachel telling the story about the conversion, tennis,

triples, and British bangers. It is a very good read. And the headline

is dramatic. It means Philip Hammond has been marketed as obliging about

civil cash. Slightly over the top. Brexit would spark a decade of

economic limbo. It sounds rather calm and reassuring, on the front of

the Observer. Tory threat to oust the Prime Minister on the front of

the Sunday Times. We will be talking about that with Tom Newton Dunn and

others. The Sunday Telegraph as Iain Duncan Smith, who will be joining me

shortly, and David Cameron, who was here last week, making their case.

Europe Europe Europe. We have other things to talk about but we will

start with Europe. David Cameron is going to face a challenge, no matter

which way the vote goes, on the front of the paper. We have months

to go on this. Blue on blue attacks are going to start coming up and up.

You are not necessarily going to see them on TV debate each other because

they are desperately trying to avoid that. But we have a man who won the

election in many respects, the Conservatives. He gave advice, he

said don't go about it this way, delay it, trying to rubbish the

deal. Quite a theatrical walk-out. When they returned to it -- then a

return to it. You will have some people who have been burned badly

and they will be looking for somebody to take it out on. How

seriously the retake the argument that Cameron will face a challenge?

He sat in that seat and said I'm not going anywhere, whether win or lose.

You only need 50 MPs to make a challenge. A fuel are disappointed.

I think there is a good chance he will get a chance. -- a few. There

have been some people who are hanging around on the backbenches,

perhaps in Cabinet before, you want him gone. Liam Fox, perhaps.

Paterson. Two people already refused to pledge their support if he loses

publicly. But it is the way he appears to be going about it.

Substance as well as style. Cameron has been telling everyone, no blue

on blue, let's be civilised, then he goes straight back out and bashes

Boris Johnson. I discovered from David Owen, this is not what Harold

Wilson did. He remained above the fray. He was the objective

character. Whichever way Britain goes, I will go with him, and

allowed his junior ministers to do the fight for him. But there is this

sense everybody is rattled already and we have a long way to go. This

is the interesting piece on The Mail on Sunday. Philip Hammond, who has

come out, and in a state of absolute theory has made a foul-mouthed

attack on Bill Cash. It is interesting, this blue on blue

attack. And we are all hyping it up a bit. Of course. Onlookers were

absolutely shocked, according to this. Which makes you think they

should get out more often. But it is this idea of fuelling tension.

George Osborne is absolutely fuming that Boris Johnson is putting

forward as a James Bond character. Turning to that, an insight into the

domestic life of the Johnson family. A rain drenched farmhouse last

weekend. A wonderful read by Boris Johnson's sister. Never one to miss

an opportunity to write a lot and get a substantial fee. All of the

Sunday papers are sprinkled with Boris Johnson camp versions of

events. They go along the lines of, this wasn't about a leadership

decision, it wasn't cynical... Boris Johnson was filled with a rush of

patriotic blood to the head when he heard Emma Thompson, the actress,

talking about salt in Britain. CHUCKLES

It is more surreal by the second. -- sodden Britain. It is fascinating.

She drove down to his house last Saturday when the Cabinet was

famously meeting after the Prime Minister came out with a deal. And

apparently his mind was flashing like a traffic light. They went and

played tennis in the rain to try and calm him down. Then he burned the

sausages inside. It goes on. It is lovely. Forget the dilemma on

Brexit, there is also the Johnson family, the family is split on it.

Boris Johnson's mother is a recruit for Brexit, apparently. Like the

nation, his family is splitting. There is an interesting line when

she put to him his career. That is about one paragraph in a 2000 word

piece. And something else, which isn't a newspaper it is BuzzFeed. My

children get their news from BuzzFeed, is it safe? Yes. We have

fun stuff. But we have stories. Like the tennis match fixing scandal

which we broke last week. It is a good mix of light and shade like any

other paper. You are the political correspondent. You work in the lobby

alongside your colleagues. It has been a fight to get the authorities

in but we are in and established. We sent Emily Ashton to North Wales. A

glamorous assignment. It was to the Ukip conference. She found Suzanne

Adams telling Ukip activists not to talk about Ukip when trying to get

people to vote to leave the U. She said mentioning Nigel Farage is

going to stop people wanting to leave. -- to leave the EU. Suzanne

is a good egg by Lion Art -- Suzanne is a good egg, but she is known to

not really like Nigel Farage. We have four months to go, but the

Leave campaign cannot even agree what their message is, and neither

can Ukip, it seems. We have buzz cut,, the future of digital

journalism. -- we have buzz cut, BuzzFeed, the future of digital

journalism. Would it be mad to launch another newspaper? It would,

but we are trying to do something different. Tell us about it. We are

having balanced opinion. Very much like this show. We won't tell people

what to think. We believe those days have gone. We believe people would

like to have their own opinions. We thought the same on the independent

but it hasn't entirely gone to plan. I don't think the balanced opinion

was the problem. And look at the success of the i. Again, we found

that one of the things causing people to lapse out of readership

was relentless... Sort of... Negativity. And the way, it is quite

interesting the way Europe has been done in the newspapers, these

personalities. People are interested in the issues, what is the right

thing to do? And the name of the newspaper is? New Day, free tomorrow

for the first edition. So you are not going to go either side on the

referendum. Exactly. But we will give a lot of informed statement so

people can make up their own opinions. Let's talk about the other

big political story of the week. We have been watching the march of

Donald Trump. All the way through people thinking nobody will vote for

him over here. But people are. He is now coming up against Marco Rubio in

a sensational and very foul-mouthed debate in America. I would just like

everybody to see Marco Rubio having a go at Donald Trump after that

debate. He inherited $200 million. If he had not he would be selling

watches it Times Square -- at. View all her friends thinking about

voting for Donald Trump. Friends do not let friends vote for con

artists. Quite clear what he thinks. But the march of Donald Trump has

taken everybody by surprise, is that fair enough? Absolutely. Remember

three weeks ago, Donald Trump was a joke. He would never have come into

the top three or four Republican nomination. There is now serious

thought he will win the entire thing. Hillary Clinton's acceptance

speech last night in South Carolina was America isn't broken. But it

doesn't come close. A very good spread in the Sunday Times. All of

the facts you need. And Donald Trump with his wife. One of the things

that has offended people most is what he said about women. He seems

to have a very old-fashioned view of these things.

Buzz feed on earth the recordings were he claimed he could have slept

with Princess Diana if he had wanted. This is the extent of the

guy. Having been to a trump rally, it is like nothing else. In many

respects, it is awful, in many respects it is astonishing. There is

a show, there is music, there is a guy on stage sending out jokes and

the crowd absolutely love it. And is this thing were someone who is

regarded as a joke all of a sudden gathers momentum and it is not at

all any more. The other huge American story that we cannot ignore

is the Oscars because we have a lot of British talent in there. But the

big story seems to be the lack of black faces. The macro it has been a

huge issue since the nominations came out, the lack of diversity. But

there is an interesting piece in the Sunday Times today, an interview

with the boss of Sony who had to resign after the leaked e-mails

which showed how women actresses like Jennifer Lawrence were getting

paid significantly less than men. She has come out and said it is a

travesty. There is an amazing statistic, only 3% of directors of

movies are women. So there is a huge issue with women as well as with

black faces. And talking about the glitz and glamour of the film world,

Borat, Borat and Grimsby, a film that is seeking to trash the

reputation of one of our finest urban centres. And they are not very

happy with either. Sasha Baron Cohen, the star of Borat, of course,

and that Mancunian, he apparently was told by Tony Blair that the

Prime Minister of Kazakhstan had run Tony Blair personally, saying that

it was going to kill their international repetition. Tony Blair

turned that down and good on him for doing so. I want to turn full circle

back to the EU and the important subject of kettles. A very important

subject. There is a preposterous story that went around last week

that was sourced to a Ukip MEP who said that the EU was trying to stop

us having our toast by removing the power to our appliances. We thought

it was' but the Telegraph claims that was truth in it. The EU has

shelved regulations to avoid the stories that the British neighbours

like to pick up on. What were they trying to achieve, under powering

our kettles? They are attacking the key values of our society,

breakfast, vacuum cleaners. I sometimes think that Nigel Farage

must have sleepers inside the commission. In fairness to the EU,

it was an energy-saving idea. It was a green thing, but it comes to a

bigger truth across government, which is that almost nothing is

happening now. Every major decision on Trident, the obesity strategy,

has been suspended, above the one that absolutely has to be done. And

this is interesting because it will be rushed through, and by the end of

April it could already be done, regardless of the fact that there

was a committee saying in April that there were so many concerns. We like

to finish these newspaper reviews with a big truth. And to the

weather. A bright clear sky yesterday -

I went off to do my errands Are we going to shiver

and jitter our way into March? We are certainly not springing into

March. It is going to be a cold start to the last day of February.

Tomorrow morning, and extensive frost. And then we will get it wet

and windy spell for Tuesday before things turn colder through the rest

of this week. Sunday, for most of us a fine day. It got down to -10 last

night across the Glens of Scotland. Temperatures now bouncing up. Not

sunny everywhere. It is going to be cloudy at times and there is rather

chilly wind coming in across East Anglia and southern England. A few

light showers, and maybe the odd shower in Shetland and Orkney.

Temperatures getting up to average, 6-9. The breeze will die down

overnight and the balloon will take hold of the map once more. Even call

it a night across England and Wales, but not quite so cold across

Scotland and Northern Ireland. Across the UK, there will be a

frost, with -6 possible in rural areas. Take note on of that for

Monday morning. Extreme wets to start, across Scotland and Northern

Ireland, between five and 8 degrees. Caught on, everybody!

I always have a problem with my next guest.

Powerful women in trouser suits with whom David Cameron has well,

These days, of course, he needs both Angular

and Angela Eagle, Labour's most senior, outspoken pro-European

There is a certain sense that the Labour Party has not quite got its

heart and soul into this campaign and that might be something to do

with the fact that the leader is a Eurosceptic. Actually, we're not

split down the middle like the Conservative Party on this. I think

there are only five members of Parliament who are going to campaign

for Out. We are determined and united in our determination to make

certain that we get this right and we stay with in the European Union.

By the time the 24th of June comes along, we will have made the right

decision in the best interests of the country. It is more about

passion I am talking about. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have voted

against virtually every EU related big issue, all the way through back

to the 1970s. There is a sense that although they want the party to not

split, and people like you have warned them to do the right thing on

Europe, as you see it, they do not really care about it. It is not in

their blood and they do not feel passionate about it. Jeremy Corbyn

is campaigning about Trident, not the EU vote. Actually, he did launch

our campaign at the Yorkshire conference yesterday, and I think he

recognises, as well as the rest of the party, that it is Labour votes

that will keep us in Europe and it is really important for our future

as a country that we do not turn our back on the largest single market in

the world, where half of our experts go, that we actually understand that

workers rights are on the referendum. A lot of workers rights

are underpinned by EU regulations. Equal pay, paid holidays, writes for

part-time workers, all things that Tory Eurosceptics want to be free

of. Continuing with the subject of workers' writes, a lot of your

traditional Labour voters are horrified by the levels of

immigration that we have seen in this country. Particularly under new

Labour. Peter Mandelson saying we virtually went out there and invited

people to comment. There was a huge increase in EU workers coming into

this country and that has depressed the wages of a lot of people who

would normally vote Labour and they are very angry about it. They listen

to Nigel Farage more than the Labour Party. I think it is important that

we put the Labour case of staying in, and underpinning rights at work,

having a more productive economy and greater skills in our economy so

people can earn higher wages. A more productive economy is an important

part of staying in Europe. Not much good if you have been undercut by a

group of migrants in Eastern Europe and you do not have a job in the

first place where you are forced to take a job at a lower wage. Of

course, but this is about globalisation and the way to resolve

that is to make sure we have a higher valued jobs. Part of that is

about our integration with the European economy in one of the

largest markets in the world. If you look at places like Norway and

Switzerland, who are outside the European Union and have greater

levels of EU immigration as a percentage of population, it is

clear that the EU is not the problem for immigration. We have to make our

way in a more interconnected world. And we can only do that by racing to

the top rather than racing to the bottom, and I fear that our

Conservative government the first that. So what about the number of

people coming into this country? Did the Labour Party get on the wrong

side of the immigration argument? I remember Barbara Roach saying that

it was wrong to send back asylum seekers who had failed because it

was too emotional. I think she was trying to make a positive case for

the benefits of immigration and we have to remember that people who

come into this country to work make our economy bigger and make us more

productive. We have to make certain that our own people are skilled to

take jobs and opportunities when they are available. And we have to

work to have a higher more productive economy. So wages can be

high. That is not the record of this government. Productivity has not

recovered from the great recession. We have had a sudden dip because of

the uncertainty caused by this internal meltdown that we are seeing

in the Conservative Party at the moment. Labour people watching this

issue will have heard nothing from you at all if they are worried about

the level of immigration to this country. We have to have a

controlled immigration policy as best we can in a globalised world.

We have to make sure that our policies are fair but I would say

that the European Union does not have the key to that echoes other

countries outside the European Union have similar issues with people on

the move. And we have got the problems of asylum seekers, where

that is a very different issue, with the collapse of various regimes in

the Middle East, causing biblical scenes on our borders. What do you

think about the deal that David Cameron has negotiated on benefits?

Is it right that people coming to this country should have to work for

a certain number of years before they get access to benefits? I think

the general view in this country is one I agree with, that people should

put into a system before they take out of a system. That has always

been the way that our social security system works and it seems

there in office. So by and large, you back him? -- and that seems to

work. I don't think that the EU deal was anything other than a sideshow,

so he could manoeuvre his own party into the place he always wanted it

to be. And I think the backlash from Eurosceptics, which has shredded the

party down the middle, is the result of that cynical manipulation. But

actually the argument for staying in the European Union is still very,

very strong, as Alan Johnson has said, regardless of what the Prime

Minister has been negotiating. It is the largest single market in the

world, we do have our trade with it. And also, this debate, it is a proxy

debate about our position in the world. I believe we should be

confident about our values and we know that we can project our values

in the world if we work through international organisations. And the

EU is one such organisation. If we vote for Brexit and then the Scots

decide to leave the UK, what kind of country do we have left? That is one

of the issues we have the way. There are dangers were coming out, not

least the economic shot and the status that you get wild you

negotiate your way out of 43 years of economic integration. -- of the

economic shock. Surely the Eurosceptics do not believe that

they could suddenly turn the clock back to the 1970s and do all the

trade deals that they did with the Commonwealth? Their attention as

elsewhere now. We have to really make the best of where we are now

and be confident that we can get the best out of it. Talking of turning

the clock back, there was a huge CND demonstration in London yesterday,

addressed by Jeremy Corbyn. If this issue comes up in the House of

Commons before the Labour Party changes its view, would you vote

with the government on Trident? We are in the middle of a review but my

position on this is always clear. If you think about it, we all agree on

the Labour Party that we would like to live in a world without nuclear

weapons. We want to live in a nuclear free world. We have a

disagreement about how best to get there and personally I have always

been a multilateralist. I believe that you negotiate these weapons

away. I do not think this government has done nearly enough to get

multinational -- multilateral talks going and I think they should do

more. But we will wait and see what the party discussion on the debate

that we have says about that. Last time we were talking about this on

the show, I invited you to be warm and generous about Jeremy Corbyn and

I think you said words to the effect of, well, we have a leader -- he is

the leader we have got. So I will give you another chance. You are so

predictable. All I can say is that I think the leadership campaign going

on in British politics at the moment is going on in the Conservative

Party. It certainly is not going on in the Labour Party. We are getting

on with trying to do the work that will create new policies so that we

can appeal to the British people. The leadership is not an issue.

Carry on being predictable one last time. A lot of people inside the

Labour Party say, that Angela Eagle, she is the future. Well, that is

very interesting but I am concentrating on my current job. But

you would not be horrified? If I get another go at George Osborne at

Prime Minister's Questions, I would not mind. You will be joining us

again later on, but thank you very much indeed.

Of all the big American TV shows that dominate our screens,

Orange Is The New Black has marked itself out as very different.

An often shocking, often very funny prison drama with a sensational

female cast, it has been laden with awards.

The show's most striking character, the inmate Suzanne, known

as Crazy Eyes, is played by Uzo Aduba.

When we met, she told me about what makes the show unique.

And we also talked about her London stage debut -

in one of the Twentieth Century's most subversive plays.

She is bothering me. And you need to be on your way, because she don't

like talking to you, not one bit. Are you kidding me? This is my wife

here, so you need to step... I will cut you, I will cut you, don't make

me cut you. You don't know me. Orange Is The New Black is unlike

anything else on TV, in America and the UK. A virtually entirely female

cast, a human in it, it is about homosexuality, race, bringing issues

to the mainstream which rarely seen. What we see in Orange Is The New

Black is so many different make-ups of people in this world rubbing up

against one another. We are telling stories about race, about women,

about sexual orientation, we are telling stories about what is

gender. We have different ages, different sizes, reflected on our

show. And all of those things can coexist. It looks like nothing else

we have seen before on TV. Tell us about the play you are in. It is The

Maids, directed by Jamie Lloyd, the story about two sisters who are in

servitude. And based on their feeling of being oppressed they have

decided to plot to kill their mistress so they can be free and

live their life to their fullest. It is a psychological thriller. It is

very exciting to play. It is about class, passion, murder, is it also

about race, the way you are doing it? It is in the sense that it is

impossible to ignore the very fact that the two women are black. I

think it is impossible to ignore some of the words that are said to

them. When you hear the word slays -- slave under the context of myself

and my sister. And the fact that it is based in modern America. Those

things do not resonate for other actors playing those roles. 1930s,

real thing, but it has been reimagined. In a sense you are in a

prison. That is right and the prison expands beyond the house in which we

are serving. It is the social prison, the status, it is not having

the freedom. That is what drives these women to the point of wanting

to escape and the only escape they can think of is the murder of their

mistress. You are an American, you must be pleased to be over here in

the UK, but when you go back to the USA will you be pleased to have

Donald Trump as your president? LAUGHTER

Is there an answer to that? I think your laughter is the answer.

LAUGHTER I have loudly and quite openly

expressed my... Candidate I am supporting. Hillary Clinton. I am

indeed support of her. Her long-standing history and activism.

Quite honestly, her front seat position to the White House. But

makes her somebody more than qualified to hold that title. --

that makes her. There are many people who feel they not enough

black faces at the Oscars this year, how do you feel about it? The

discussion we should have is about the production of work which is

all-inclusive. The level of work being produced. That includes people

of all walks. I'm interested in having that conversation or question

placed back into the hands of those who have the charge to change

things. Directors and big producers? Correct. Are you against the idea of

protesting? I live in the United States. This is a country which was

borne out of rebellion and revolt. CHUCKLES

But that is the great freedom we have in the US. I'm not against

anybody exploring or exercising that right, because it is that, it is a

right. Every person of this world wants to feel like they matter just

as much as the next person. I don't think there is anything wrong in

standing up and saying so. That new version of The Maids is at the

Trafalgar Studios in London's West End until the 21st of May, well

worth it. Iain Duncan Smith,

when he was Tory leader, told us that the Conservatives

did not want to leave A long time ago, of course,

and his own hostility to Brussels has become ever more

obvious since then. Unlike Michael Gove

or Boris Johnson, David Cameron was never in much doubt that IDS

would come out for Brexit. I picked up my paper today and I

read you saying, they can sack me, is it going to come to that? Like

anything else, I was responding to a question and the answer is my

country comes first, always before jobs, careers, anything else, I

always said I am here, it is a vocation, not a career. It wasn't an

invitation? It is not for me to invite anybody to sack me or not.

This is a huge issue. The Prime Minister, to be fair, deserves

credit for allowing the Cabinet to disagree and campaign. That is a

sense of strength rather than weakness, I think. Let's turn to the

issue. The biggest thing people want to know about all of this is our

terms of trade if we leave the EU. Are you in favour of us staying

inside a single European market? I am in favour of us having a proper

arrangement which allows us to access the marketplace as they exist

at the moment. That isn't an answer. It is worth remembering that nowhere

in the treaties is the single European market in anyway to find.

Those who talk about an entity are wrong. There is no entity called the

single European market, there is just a series of issues in Europe

about trade and relationships. I believe we should be able to arrange

our affairs with the EU as the fifth largest economy, such as we would

get access to the matters we will refer to as the single European

market, and trade and cooperate with them in a reasonable way. But not be

bound by a whole series of internal regulations. Because 95% of all

business in Britain doesn't trade with the European Union. It has to

imbibe all of the regulations which come from the EU, costing them extra

money, and real problems about time and concerns about their ability to

do revenue because of that. According to the figures, 50% of our

trade is with the EU comedy you accept that as a figure? The

careful. What we have seen with that percentage is that there is a bunch

of trading with that. Example, a company that makes wings for an

aircraft that is being exported to Kuwait, that isn't European trade,

it is going through the EU and out of it. Nearly 41% of it goes to the

European Union. Pretty big. And the amount of trade coming back,

according to the ONS figures, from then to us is about 13%. There are

debates about that, 13, 16... What about that gap? I don't think it is

a gap at all. You have to look at who is trading and why. That

percentage coming from the UK is vitally important to the EU because

it is a huge element of their trade on manufacturers. Look at Germany,

we are Germany's third largest trading partner. We are 1% behind

their greatest which is France. France, America, America is their

second, and they are not in the single market, not in the EU. We are

the third. My point is Germany, selling cars, machine tools,

Scandinavia, I was in hospital the other day, I was in an operating

theatre there were products in there which were not made in Britain but

made in Sweden. They have a requirement to trade with us, a

desperate one, and we will do it with them. My original question, the

single European market, it may not be an entity. Margaret Thatcher was

always in favour of the EU all the way through as Prime Minister and

she was very specific about the single European act, and the single

European market. She liked the idea. She said, what a prospect that is, a

single market without barriers, visible or invisible, giving you

direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million

of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. The number has

gone up, of course, but isn't that a fair point? Yes, and I talked to her

when I got elected. She also told me that she had been utterly misled

about the single European act. She was told it was about the

marketplace. But later she realised it was actually about a political

union. It is worth knowing something here, I think we always debate the

single market, Europe has a distinct desire to have asked trade with them

and vice versa. Fact of life. In or out. We will trade with the European

Union. But the European Union is not about the trade issue. The European

Union was set up by the founding fathers, and important Italian man,

an ex-communist, he designed it because he said this is a political

project. It is about bringing the nations of Europe closer and closer

together to create a place called Europe and the design of it was that

politicians who come and go cannot override the decisions of the

bureaucracy because otherwise we would never get there. We are out of

the close a bit, of course. That is debatable. What is the deal that you

think we could realistically negotiate with the rest of the EU

once we have left? What is the nature of the deal? We would want

them to be able to access our market freely without any special and extra

tariffs. We would want access their marketplace. We would also want

something else which I think we have never -- that they have never

delivered. The market in financial trade is not complete by a long way,

it is still highly difficult for British companies come in the

financial sector, the trade directly in Germany. All sorts of barriers

are put up. Same goes for France. Outside we cannot affect that. Even

inside, how many years have we had since the single European act, 30?

And we haven't affected that, either. In fact, quite the opposite.

New regulations piling in on the city made it more difficult for them

to trade with the rest of the world. To be clear, we would get a two-way

free-trade deal, it would get us into the single European act, but

without free movement of people, and without financial entrance fees. A

better deal than any EU country has got, we would get after leaving, why

would they give us that? Because the rest of the EU signed up to the

political project. For most of the countries of the EU they believe in

this political project. We don't. If you go to Europe, and much of my

family have been living in Italy, I studied out there, they don't talk

about the marketplace. There has never been a debate in those

countries about it. They talk about the political project. They talk

about Europe and the European Union as being an entity. That being the

case, we leave, we slammed the door and their faces, and we say, we want

a better deal for us than you have for anybody else. Why would they do

that? -- slam. My answer is simple. The PM says there is a challenge to

find out what life outside of it would look like, well, we do a deal

with the European Union, that is a trade deal, it is about access to

our market, access to their markets. We want migration but we wanted as

controlled migration so we can cope with it. An optimistic view of what

would happen outside the EU. I am an optimist. The UK has faced bigger

trials before. It stood alone in war. It rediscovered and defined

trade throughout the world. These were British inventions. I say this

to those who say they want to remain in, I have never heard such a lot of

pessimistic, downsizing of Britain's aspect. Britain is a phenomenal

country. The fifth largest in the world. It has stood alone and fought

for freedom. It has traded globally. It can yet again be a global trade.

Why would we have such a low opinion of the British people that we talk

about leaping into the dark, profound shocks, we talk about them

not being capable, too small... I have a different view, I believe

Britain is a great country. The people are inventive, innovative,

and they will find a way to actually have a real deal that gives Britain

access to the world and access to the EU. You don't see Cameron as

being a patriot. The In campaign's strategy seems to be about it is

terrible, hang on... Talking down Britain. Basically saying we are too

little and too inconsequential, we cannot do what we want. Why would

anybody want to run a country like that? This country is the greatest.

Not because it is the biggest and strongest, but because it has the

best people. A free-market designed by a Scotsman. Everything was

designed by a Scotsman. And I'm proud of that. Out there in the

modern world as we live it now, millions, billions of people around

the world have mobile phones, good access to technology, they know what

life is like in the West, it is much easier than it ever was to travel

around the world. Those two things put together mean people in

impoverished or dangerous circumstances are not going to move,

whether the EU is there or not, there is global migration, in or out

of PE you, we will face the same issues, isn't that true? -- of the

EU. Of course, but right now we have

control over when somebody arrives in the European Union. We also have

no control over our borders with those members. Is that true? Let me

finish this point because it is important. We have chaos and crisis

in the European Union over migration. Even the Schengen

Agreement is falling apart. Hungary is putting up barbed wire and

Macedonia is refusing to accept anybody from Greece. Hardly the

fault. It is a global shift. People say we cannot exist without the

European Union but I am saying if this is the future with the European

Union, we would be better off saying this is how we are going to cope.

This country has accepted refugees down the ages and I am proud of

that. And the numbers of those coming from outside the EU have

rocketed under this government. She has got that right down from where

it was before but the reality is that we cannot control migration

from the European Union. If you want to know what the future looks like,

and this is the challenge for those who want to vote to remain in, what

will it look outside? We will control the numbers that come in and

for what reason but if you go and stay in, you have chaos and

confusion. You do not know that this is not going to collapse. You do not

know that the euro, we do not know whether you're always going to be in

two years. But we know where the chaos and confusion is, it is in

Calais, in the Jungle. Once we leave the EU, what stops the French

saying, OK, all you go -- on you go, all those people, there is no reason

for the French anybody else to stop you coming here. What do we do then?

This is another great scare story put out by the In people. It is not

a scare story. The French interior minister has said as much. The

reality is that the French would not have done that deal with as if it

did not suit them. Of course it suited them. If you remember, before

the deal there were greater numbers sitting at Calais and there was no

agreement about processing them in France. It suited the French to get

the processing them they are and it has actually meant that it has been

better organised than it was before. It is a problem now, because the

European borders... Local and national politicians in France have

said that if we leave they will simply let people go through and

coming to the UK in large numbers. And then what do we do? Do we have a

Jungle in Kent? We control it as we have to but that is not going to

happen because it does not suit the French. The moment they do that,

their numbers will trouble, hanging around in France, in Calais. They

know that is to be the case which is why they made the original deal,

which was done bilaterally. It had nothing to do with the European

Union. How does damage the French if people come straight through?

Because it invites more people to come through into France. But they

are only passing through. And that is the point, and they know very

well that while they are in France, they are doing all sorts of things.

But under the new deal, they will be in England rather than France. They

will still be where they are, because it suits France under the

new deal. My point is, figures crossed that French tomorrow... We

have so much to talk about. France tomorrow are saying, go right now,

but we are not going to do it. You are unionist. What happens if

Scotland leads the UK as a result of the Brexit vote? Are you worried

about that? I think you vote for what is in front of you and what is

in front of us right now is whether we should remain in the European

Union. The reality for Scotland is they have had a referendum and I was

passionately for the union, and I believe they voted for that. I think

those running around saying that somehow if Britain votes to stay in

and Scotland decides they want to go, they have another referendum, I

think Scotland does not want another referendum because they are settled.

Opinion polls in Scotland now are for leaving the UK. Nicola Sturgeon

has complete control of the Scottish legal system and she says it will

happen if we have a Brexit. She said it on that sofa, digitally, down the

line. And I see no reason to think that it will not happen. It is going

to be an emotional decision for people, a visceral decision, and

they will be standing in the voting book, thinking, leave the EU and

have Scotland goal, it is too much. -- in the voting booth. What about

the other way round, if England votes to come out and Scotland votes

to remain? It is an absurd concept, England would have do have a

referendum? You know this as well as I do, these are politicians trying

to use this for their own purposes, for their own short-term narratives.

And I say, look, that is what the Nationalists want and they will go

on and on about a referendum for years because they never accepted

what Alex Salmond said was the decision of a generation. Speaking

of people going on and on, you face a situation as a Brexit campaigner

for you do not have access to the government papers you would normally

have, things you would like to see. Do you think you are fighting on a

Fairfield? My view is reasonably simple. -- on a fair field. I do not

think that this can apply to us because we are responsible for the

department. I will have to work on these proposals if we vote to remain

in. We will have to deliver that. And can this be delivered? Is

conjugated system of benefits? Is that deliverable by your department?

If we are asked to deliver it, I know the department has the skill

and the capability to find a way. It is not easy, and it is compensated,

and it was not our proposal, but they could deliver it. My sense

about this, although it is not as same -- the same as limiting overall

migration to the UK, because it does not, I want to remain on this one

point which is that I simply say that all of the staff, all of the

threats, I am positive about leaving the European Union because instead

of those who say it is a leap in the dark, I think it is a stride into

the light, about hope and not pessimism. We will talk more about

the future in a moment but at the -- but now, over to sally for the

headlines. The Work and Pensions Secretary has told this programme

that the UK would be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the

EU if people vote to leave in the June referendum. Iain Duncan Smith

said the European Union was primarily a political project and

warned it is heading for chaos and collapse because of the migrant

crisis. The Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny

has admitted that the coalition government has lost

the general election. Exit polls

indicate that Fine Gael have made heavy losses but will

remain the largest party. Sinn Fein and the smaller

parties have made gains - and weeks of negotiations are now

expected before a new administration The next news on BBC1

is at one o'clock. First, a look at what's coming up

immediately after this programme. Join us live from Newcastle when we

will be asking, does inequality work? And then fair trade, can

ethical shopping change the world? And after the Archbishop's call for

evangelism, should religions tout for business? See you at ten on BBC

One. And as retired and promised, Angela Eagle and Iain Duncan Smith

are both here. I did not talk about your future, but you have said that

if we stay inside the European Union we are like a ship heading towards

the rocks of disaster. How could you possibly clamber aboard that ship

and carry on sailing in that direction is the thing goes against

you? You cannot really say the David Cameron, I will stay with you after

this, can you? That is not up to me. But would you want to? I want to see

that Britain does everything they can to avoid it. Do the best with

what you have got. I am for Out but if they voted In, we would have

responsibility to make further changes. Can I take you up on this

idea that those who want to stay in Europe are somehow pessimists? I

actually think that this whole issue is a proxy for a debate about our

future and we should be confident about our ability to amplify our own

influence within the European Union rather than outside of it. I am

actually very confident that we have a better presence on the world

stage, that we are more prosperous and we have better job prospects and

economic prospects, better workers rights, if we stay in the European

Union. I am not pessimistic about the future. You are not. And that is

more positive than your leader. But I will say nothing more than that. I

will simply say... I think my leader is probably far more positive about

Europe than you are. And I actually think that he is campaigning to stay

in Europe with more positivity than the Prime Minister. I sat with

Jeremy Corbyn during the Maastricht debates and I have watched him in

debate after debate and I would say that up until the final moment when

he sat down with all of you, he was utterly opposed to us staying in and

all of a sudden he has changed. That is fine. I will accept the argument.

Since we are talking about leaders, there is a lot of bad feeling

already reeling around the media. And briefings and so forth. What is

your advice to your opponents in this campaign about conducting at

the? It is very simple. We agreed at the time. As I said, the Prime

Minister deserves some credit because this is a generous offer, to

lead cabinet ministers break ranks and debate this big issue. But the

general view is, don't play the person, play the ball. And you think

the other side have made a few mistakes? I think we should take a

deep breath and ask a simple question. It is about Britain, not

about us. Does Boris Johnson believe that? What got me excited, during

the Olympics I was in the job centre and I would talk to lots of people

who have skills, plumbers and electricians. This is about them

because they could not get jobs on the Olympic Park because people were

coming in from the European Union, setting themselves up and getting

jobs. And they undercut those who were British, qualified people. And

I am worried for them. It is for them, not for me or the Prime

Minister, it is about them. But we have seen the Conservative Party

fall apart in mass recriminations within about four days. You are

meant to be running the country while this is going on. Look at the

newspapers today, it is a farrago of blue on blue attacks, and total

incoherence. All sorts of briefings. I have never seen anything like it.

You guys are experts on that. Do you think it was a mistake for the Prime

Minister to go for Boris Johnson so obviously in PMQs? I will not give

advice, and I'm seeing deja vu issues like 25 years ago on

Maastricht. But my point is, this is about Britain and the British people

want us to conduct this on that basis. It is not about Westminster,

it is about them. The Chancellor of the ejector, he was issuing dire

warnings about Singapore that he said he was not going to issue. I

would like to spend an entire programme on our economic future but

I expect we are going to run out of time. The government is a mess. The

government is not a mess. And meal will be back with the Sunday

Politics within an hour, when he will be talking to Alan Johnston and

Michael Howard. -- Andrew Neill. We'll be back next week

with the former Bank of England boss Mervyn King and Germany's Finance

Minister Wolfgang Schauble