06/03/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

Our next Prime Minister - or the wilderness man?

This morning Boris Johnson joins the argument over Britain's future.

Baloney, piffle, hogwash, Project Fear - the Mayor of London

has been characteristically forthright about the views

In a little while Mr Johnson and I turn to the nitty gritty

of this awesomley important national choice.

Wolfgang Schauble says there would be a trade deal

But the German finance minister still thinks that to go

Staying with the big picture, I'll be talking

to Mervyn King, the legendary former Governor of the Bank of England,

who has a dark warning about the world economy.

there's an election campaign in America.

Our own Jon Sopel is here to review the papers,

and tell us all about it - along with Labour moderniser,

and former would-be leader, Liz Kendall.

But we'll leave you we promise on a harmonious, uplifting note -

quite a few notes actually - from Benjamin Grosvernor

and Hyeynoon Park, to finish the show.

And if that doesn't cheer you up and nothing will.

But first, the news, with Katherine Downes.

Boris Johnson has said it's "absolutely scandalous",

that one of the country's biggest business groups

suspended its director-general, for suggesting Britain

could have a brighter future outside the EU.

In an article in the Sunday Telegraph, The Mayor of London,

who's campaigning to leave, claimed John Longworth,

the head of the British Chambers of Commerce, was a victim

Downing Street has denied a suggestion that it put pressure

The BCC had said it would remain neutral in the referendum debate.

The leading Republican candidates, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz,

have each won two states in the latest stage of the race

Donald Trump took Lousiana and Kentucky,

while his rival won in Kansas and Maine.

Bernie Sanders stays in the Democrat race after winning

But Hillary Clinton strengthened her lead,

Senator Cruz said his victories showed he's the candidate

with the best chance of beating Donald Trump -

still the Republican front-runner - and going on to win the Presidency:

What we are seeing here in Idaho is really what we are seeing

all across the country, which is Republicans are coming

together, they are uniting behind our campaign.

The 65% of Republicans who recognise Donald

Trump is not the best candidate to go head with Hillary Clinton.

That the odds are too high, he loses, we lose

the Supreme Court for a generation, we lose the Bill of Rights,

we lose the Senate and what we are seeing is Republicans coalescing

Growing numbers of children who are stranded in a migrant camp

on the Greek-Macedonian border are suffering respiratory

infections, according to the aid agency Doctors Without Borders.

The charity says poor sanitation and adverse weather

At least 13,000 migrants are now believed to be stranded.

A Greek regional governor has called for a state of emergency to allow

Driverless lorries are to be trialled on UK roads

The Chancellor, George Osborne, is expected to announce next month

that tests using driverless technology will begin on the M6.

Several companies are currently developing self-driving cars whilst

these driverless lorries have already been trialled in Germany.

The next news on BBC 1 is at 12.15pm.

This is John Longworth, the head of the British chamber of, nurse, he

lost his job allegedly after number ten bullying, we will talk about

that later. The Sunday Times has a picture of Rupert Murdoch and Jerry

hall getting married yesterday and we will talk about that. Scary story

here, EU fuels terror and pastures and -- Fascism warns Michael Gove.

The Sunday express the EU seeks can stroll of our coast, the Spanish

Armada bobbing up, and a different Johnson, we will move quickly beyond

that. Top headhunters admit UK bosses pay absurdly high. We will

stick with The Observer Liz Kendall because your first story is at the

bottom of the front page? That is correct, dominated about our

membership of the EU and the story I think is very important is that Alan

Johnson and Chuka Umunna are issuing a call to arms amongst Labour

members and supporters to go out and make the passionate case were asked

to remain part of the EU. We have not heard a great deal from the

Labour Party, both buying chaps I am sure but they are not the leaders.

-- both buying chaps. The story has been dominated by splits in the Tory

party and we have to go out and make the case. This is the biggest

political issue we face in a generation and it will rest on

Labour members and supporters getting out to vote to make sure we

remain part of the EU. There are some on the left of the party who

might be provided to about our membership but it's actually about

jobs, growth and the politics of solidarity and we have to make the

case. You have been covering these things for a fair number of years,

the left of the Labour Party back in the 70s and 80s was very

anti-European and that in a way is the Jeremy Corbyn tradition. Yes.

Those doubts still exist. There was a period where the social chapter

came into Europe and labour embraced it because of workers rights and

suddenly the Labour Party became very European. My vantage point is

3000 miles away but I have been struck over the past few weeks

trying to watch the Labour Party, just how quiet it has felt that the

Labour Party have been on the whole subject, they don't seem to be

leading the fight at all. Without doubt we have to make the passionate

case, we still have one in five voters undecided, many of those are

women and I would like to see more women having a stronger voice in

this campaign because at the moment it is very male dominated. That's a

fair point. Terrifying front page from the Sunday Times, the EU fuels

terror and fascism according to Michael Gove. We have already had

what is being called Project Fear, we saw the way the Scottish

referendum was fought with a sense of being frightened and we get a

paragraph like this, a warning that staying in the EU would make it

harder to identify terrorists and keep the UK safe and accused

Brussels of fuelling arise in Hitler worshippers across the continent. It

all sounds pretty terrifying. Sounds like Project Fear is in full

throttle on both sides. Exactly. I wonder what people who are trying to

weigh up the arguments will make, will they believe it if the visions

are both so apocalyptic on either side, no room for nuance. It is all

getting a bit show tee, this business of John Longworth losing

his job, we don't really know, number ten denies bullying him, a

lot of people claim he was bullied but the British chamber of commerce

were obliged to fire him because they want to stay neutral but I

think almost every public figure is under pressure to say which side

they are on. Yes, and particularly in industry because that is a

clinching argument to say a certain number of captains of industry say

Britain is better off or worse off. I think it is those voices that will

convince people in the end, there will be a lot of heat and fury and

it will be the leaders of companies like Toyota and Rolls-Royce who have

raised real concerns about what would happen to their businesses if

Britain left the EU. I think the public is more likely to leave those

voices than politicians. If John Longworth is watching you have only

been suspended, not fired, that was my mistake. Let's turn to the job

you do everyday, George Osborne or an American story? I was going to

talk about the debate over whether there should be televised discussion

the referendum. In America we have had endless TV debates of varying

quality. Extraordinary screaming matches. Extraordinary screaming

matches, Donald Trump discussing allsorts of things aside from the

strength of his candidacy which we won't go into. Two principal

candidates, they are now known, Ted Cruz is now known as lying and Marco

Rubio is known as little Marco. I just wonder it you could have a fair

and balanced debate two days out from the referendum. Apparently the

pro-EU side are getting a bit queasy about the project. Everybody should

be able to watch the big beasts from both sides test one another. I

completely agree and it is one of the things which has struck me about

American democracy, you have it at grassroots level where politicians

have to campaign on a local level but you also have the expectation

that they will face a TV audience on a regular basis and put their

arguments to the test and it just seems strange we have these debates,

are we going to have a TV debate or not? Absolutely if it had not been

for Europe we would have been talking about nothing except the

looming budget. A big fight about pensions and George Osborne seems to

have had a climb-down. Yes, a story about not just the climb-down over

pensions but over raising social housing rents and I think if there

is that you turn it will be welcome but there are some long-term

challenges the Chancellor needs to address in the budget and I wanted

to pick up something here. We are tiptoeing nervously into the 21st

century. The Sunday Herald. We tiptoeing nervously into the 21st

cannot get it on paper, from Glasgow, the front page. Very

interesting front-page story, if you are born into a poor family you will

die ten years earlier than if you are born into a better off families.

This lack of life chances for people who are born in more disadvantaged

areas is a huge challenge, we will never succeed as individuals or a

country and everyone has a chance to get on in life and what I would like

to see in the budget is instead of doing an inheritance tax cut for the

very few at the top, I want to see that money going into the early

years because what happens in those years has a big impact on how will

you do in later life and that is the kind of budget I would like to see

George Osborne present. Your leader is in some trouble in the Sunday

Times but that is not unusual. I would like to move to the story you

Times but that is not unusual. I have been obsessed by, Donald Trump,

an amazing haircut with this picture. Yes, the child with a

Donald Trump comb over by the look of things. He has a pacifier in his

mouth and does not look very pacified by being in the arms of

Donald Trump. He looks deeply upset. The phenomenon is extraordinary, it

is real, there is enormous support for him. Among white working class,

among all sorts of groups, all demographics. He is a student of the

polls and he takes you through what he is doing in each demographic and

is winning in most of them. Chances are he will become the Republican

nominee and will be fighting in a head to head with Hillary Clinton.

People were saying that Marco Rubio would come through and Ted Cruz is

finished, and cover people seem to be wrong. Clever people have been

wrong thread. This is the lead story of the Washington post which will be

hitting the newsstands in a few hours. Talking about the victories

he had in Kansas overnight and it will boost his bid to become the

chief alternative to Donald Trump. What you will have is Ted Cruz is

not the establishment candidate, Ted Cruz is low that even more by the

Republican establishment because he is seen as ideological and

flinching, very much to the Christian right and has not got one

Republican supporting him even though, in the Senate, even though

he is a senator himself. They do not like him as a human being? Here's

hard to warm to. You have Donald Trump and I think it will be

difficult to stop him getting all the way to the nomination. I just

wanted to pick out the leader on The Observer which says we have to

understand the root causes of the very real anger and frustration

which Donald Trump is picking up on. America may be militarily strong but

is not dealing with issues in Syria, issues on the economy and people are

angry. I think this is the same argument in Europe, unless you give

people hope that they can have a better life and deal with these

issues... We will talk to Mervyn King about this later on, but we're

running out of time so a thought on Mother's Day. My thought on Mother's

Day is this piece which says, I wouldn't say forget mothers, but

this talks about celebrating aunties and I am very proud to be one. One

in five women in their 40s now are childless and I am one of those

women but I love my nieces. I think an aunties day would be great.

Finally, Ruppert Murdoch. I love looking at the Sunday newspapers,

two Young starlets who have just got married, we have Ruppert Murdoch and

Jerry hall having got married on the street yesterday. Then a glittering

occasion with the good and are great, some of the good and some of

the great. Rupert Murdoch has been a great antiestablishment figure but

is so part of the establishment. All the people they are. Top Michael

Gove. The former Justice Secretary was there. The pictures look great

and it does look like a very happy and joyous occasion.

Snow in the north, where winter is always coming.

Winter Fell was briefly cut off but down here in Kings Landing it's

I hoped to have John Snow here to bring you the weather,

So making do in the weather studio is Peter Gibbs.

Winter definitely still rules at the moment, we had a widespread frost

overnight. We were sent this recent picture of snow falling in

Stoke-on-Trent so there is still something wintry out there. The area

of showers producing that sleet and snow is moving its way across the

west Midlands. It will struggle to settle, and as you go further north

that is where you break out into some of the best sunshine. It will

look magnificent in those clear skies today. A bit more cloud from

Northern Ireland, patchy rain into the west. Another cold day

everywhere, still a bit of a chilly wind blowing in from the north.

Colder still overnight tonight, and with clear skies and light winds, a

widespread frost. Towns and cities dropping below freezing quite

widely, but in rural areas it will be down to minus ten potentially in

some of those Scottish glens. Looking ahead, Monday is a crisp

day, Tuesday still on the chilly side, but things are starting to

change, becoming more unsettled and we will be exchanging winter for

something more springlike by the end of the week.

At last! As Governor of the Bank of England,

Mervyn King was at the centre of events when the great crash

of 2008 shook this country, taking down financial institutions

and ruining many businesses The costs to the taxpayer were huge,

recovery painfully slow. But now he thinks we could be

on the verge of another financial disaster because,

frankly, we haven't learned Good morning. We were talking in the

paper review about general anger against the elite, is your economic

warning part of the reason, do you think? I think so, I think in the

wake of the last crisis, government and central banks did boost

employment and increase spending and in the short run that prevented a

rise in unemployment that we saw in the great depression so we avoided a

great depression, but since we didn't put right the fundamental

problems, living standards have continued to grow slowly, we have

seen an extremely slow recovery across the whole world and anger has

built up because the people who are suffering words those who felt

responsible for the crisis. And usual ways of trying to get out of

this problem of people feeling very angry, low interest rates, that has

been tried and tried and it has run out really. Yes, it was sensible to

cut interest rates but it is a temporary solution, it is a

painkiller if you like, and if all you do with painkillers is keep

taking them and not deal with the underlying symptoms, you don't get

better. You said in your book pities virtually certain we are facing

another financial crash, why is that? In the long run the banking

system is still potentially subject to the sort of runs we saw during

the crisis. No one knows when that will be but what is clear about the

world economy is that most countries if not every country around the

world could say, if only the rest of the world was growing normally we

would be fine, but since it isn't we aren't, so we get countries

competing with each other to push down interest rates. You have the

reputation of being a cautious man, but you say in the book that unless

we get reform of the financial institutions, another crash will

happen sooner rather than later, which will scare people watching.

The financial system is not safe enough, but we do have 10-20 years

to put into place measures that will make our banking system safer. In

the short term we need to be worried about the rest of the world. The

euro area, China, which is not growing as rapidly as it claims to

be, many countries around the world are now starting to compete with

each other rather than cooperate. So we should be worried about the

failure of a Chinese bank setting off the ripples we saw last time

round? Yes, I think one of the things people didn't appreciate

enough last time round and the United States doesn't appreciate

today is that events around the globe can affect our own economy. It

is very clear from the book that some of the things you want to

happen have been talked about for a long time, dividing ordinary banks

that ordinary people use to put their money into from what has been

called Casino banking. In the end you are talking about a lack of

political leadership at the top level, I wonder why you think that

has happened. Is it because frankly politicians have been intimidated by

the bankers and financial services? I don't try to split banks into

narrow and wide, I want them like motorists to take out insurance

before they go on the road. If you try to drive a faster and more

dangerous car, you pay a higher insurance premiums. You don't need

to ban people, and that flexibility is one of the key points of the

book. I think for politicians, it is very difficult for countries in the

end to work for each other. I have been to every GE 20 meeting until I

left the bank and most people were looking at their home constituencies

and domestic considerations, not facing up to the major challenges.

But there was a problem before the crisis and I suspect it hasn't gone

away, that the large financial institutions had an influence. It

wasn't crude in the sense of bribing people in any shape or form. I'm

sure there are some countries in the world where that is true, not here.

But first politicians depend on finance and funding, and you can see

that clearly in the United States how they depend on financial

institutions to pay for their campaigns, and hear people were

captured by the apparent success, everything was going well. They were

starry eyed. Yes, because this was a sector that was making ever bigger

profits, but what risks are they taking? In the book also, you are

very critical of the eurozone. You say it is a terrible disaster, you

suggest Germany might be better off leaving the euro zone but they will

go far deeper integration to try to make it work, and you talk about the

importance of national sovereignty, people having control over their

destinies. Reading this book, I came to the conclusion you must be in

favour of us leaving the EU. I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

It is clear we are influenced by what is going on in the euro area,

and I think it has been an economic if not disaster very serious

problem. Most divisive forces since the Second World War, you call it.

Germans wanted to bind Germany into Europe so the rest of Europe would

never again be frightened of Germany, it has had the opposite

effect. If you look at the attitudes towards Germany today in Greece and

even Italy, you see there is more concerned about Germany than ever

before, and this is a headache for Germany. They didn't set out to find

themselves in this position but the economic arithmetic has led them to

it. That's why in the long run the euro area is something we should be

concerned about. Isn't the problem, so long as we are inside the EU, we

are tied to the euro area very closely. Therefore, if it goes down,

if it gets into terrible trouble, we will be badly affected. That will be

true in or out, the euro area is our biggest trading partner, that will

carry on being the case, therefore it matters to us what goes on there.

I worry this will be a battle between the political will of an

elite that created this and stands now admit it was a mistake, and

economic arithmetic and we will all suffer from that. On that cheerful

note, thank you for joining us. Germany's Finance Minister,

Wolfgang Schauble, is one of Europe's most experienced

politicians, with a career spanning 30 years and a key ally

of Chancellor Merkel. So there was great interest

when he appeared at the British Chambers of Commerce annual

conference in London last week. Sitting alongside George Osborne,

he said Germany would cry if Britain I caught up with Dr Schauble

afterwards, and we began by talking about the impact of the migration

crisis in Europe. Had Germany been wrong

to open its doors and invite TRANSLATION: We have not

invited the refugees, Europe is confronted with

the situation in the Middle East, and whether we want this or not

we will have to take on more responsibility, and I think we can

do so better together. If Europe is going to avoid having

barbed wire between the borders and all the old borders going up

inside the Schengen area, then there's a feeling at the moment

that there has to be a much stronger, almost military

border around Europe. Yes, of course, we will have

to control effectively the external borders of the EU,

that's quite clear. Any community that has no border

controls within it has to control But this isn't the only question,

it is also a question of cooperation with our neighbouring countries

so that the number of those who want to come to Europe

will actually be reduced to a level The European summit on Monday

will of course also involve Turkey and we will discuss how,

together with Turkey, You mentioned Turkey just now,

and there's an obvious kind of deal to be done of some kind,

but what would you say to people in Britain,

for instance, who are very alarmed by the thought of 70 million Turkish

people joining the EU and having free movement,

for instance, to Britain? Well, it will be a long time before

we reach the end of negotiations with Turkey about accession

to the European Union. Actually, the German government has

major doubts about whether Turkey But this is a question

for the coming years, it is not The German people are now having

to absorb a large number of immigrants and pay a high price

to look after them properly, and at the same time the German

people are having to deal with a lot Do you think, as a government,

you have been pushing your Well, at the moment

we are in quite good shape, We have the lowest unemployment rate

since reunification, we have the highest level

of employment that we have ever had, we have the highest increase

in real wages and salaries. The refugee problem,

of course, needs a solution, Those that will stay permanently

will have to be integrated well, and once the number is reduced

to a more acceptable level, We've had immigrants from Italy,

Spain, Portugal, Turkey since the Second World War and it's

been successful and Can I turn to the possibility

of Britain leaving the EU Because one of the things that

people who want us to leave say is that in the end Germany wants

to sell German cars and washing machines and many other goods

to Britain, and we have many things There would be a trade deal and it

would be a perfectly reasonable one because it is in both sides'

interests to carry on trading. I believe that of course

we will still have trade, we also have trade with China

and the whole world, but there's a big difference

between having a common market with common rules without any

controls, a market that is open, Isn't it possible for the UK

to have the advantages of the internal market,

the single trading area, without paying in and without

accepting free movement of people? No, you are either in the single

market or you are not in the single market, and if you are not in it

then you have trade agreements. Of course there are countries

in Europe that are part of the single market

but they still have to pay into the budget of the community

and they have to accept the free So, naturally they have

all the disadvantages of the common market and they are not involved

in the decision-making process I cannot really see why the UK

would be interested in staying within the single market

without being able to make For people watching,

they might say, in the end, after all the fuss and the noise

and so on, there would be a perfectly acceptable trading deal

which would be good for Germany, good for Britain and good

for the other European members, you don't have to be part

of the EU for Germany, Britain and France to

trade with each other. Once again, of course there's trade

with all countries in the world, but whether you are within

the single market or not is a major difference and you can either be

in it or be out of it. Whether the UK wants to stay

in the single market will be decided in the referendum,

but if the decision is taken to leave, the UK will no longer be

in the single market unless you find a new treaty, a new contract

where you can be a member of the single market

without actually being a member of the EU, and you will still have

to accept the free movement of people that goes with it,

and you will still have to pay contributions so it

doesn't really make sense. And the British people

base their decisions What happens to the rest

of the EU if Britain leaves? Are you worried about a slow

collapse of the institution itself? I believe that Europe would be

weaker without the UK. The UK is a strong partner,

and if the UK left this would weaken Europe, and I don't think it will be

in the British interest either. Of course, if there was a negative

decision, we would not commit suicide, we would still try

to fight for the best. Let's say the referendum was to go

that way, we would have years of the most difficult negotiations,

which would be very difficult And for years, we would have such

insecurity that would be a poison to the economy in the UK,

the European continent, Do you think the mood in the rest

of the EU would be angry, would be vindictive,

would be vengeful, or do you think European politicians would then

try to do serious and sensible deals with Britain if Britain

voted to leave? Of course we will be sad to start

with, and I think most in Europe will agree with the European Union

that it would be to the detriment of Europe, it will be a weaker

Europe and this cannot be Of course then we would try,

and this is true of life in general, you have a setback and still you try

and go on, and we will But I do believe that it is better

to avoid such catastrophes rather than try to think how to get well

again after the catastrophe. Dr Schauble, thank you very much

indeed for coming to talk to me. The German Finance Minister,

Wolfgang Schauble, talking If you are wondering about the

wheelchair, he survived an assassination attempt in the 1980s

and kept going. In a moment, I'll be

talking to Boris Johnson, but first, a look at what's coming

up immediately after this programme. Join us from Cardiff where Merlin

will be helping us debate whether animals should be used in

entertainment. Then in the human world is it the mother ring or the

mother that matters? And would it be fair to raise the pension age? See

you at 10am on BBC One. fair to raise the pension age? See

dogs on this programme but the moment you have been waiting for,

Boris Johnson here to talk to me about Brexit. Good morning.

Boris Johnson here to talk to me pro-minister was in your seat he

made an appeal which fell on deaf ears, but I said let's give you a

chance to make your case straightforwardly so I will do the

same to you. Tell us why you have decided we would be better off

outside the EU? We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity which

will not come again to strike a new series of relationships, free trade

deals, with the growth economies around the world whilst maintaining,

as Will Gong Schauble -- as Wolfgang Schauble just said, maintaining our

agreements with the EU. I think staying in the European Union as it

evolves to an ever centralised federalist structure in the effort

to preserve the euro is the risky option. The best thing for us

because we are a great country, proud economy and pro-democracy, is

to take back control over our borders, over the huge sums of money

that we send to the European Union and to take back large amounts of

control over our democracy. That is what clinched it for me. I will

describe, if you want, the journey that led me to this conclusion. We

will come to that but part of that journey is I want to clean up

exactly what you think and want to happen now? Relatively recently you

were arguing that we could have a referendum, vote to leave, they

would be so panicked and shocked that we would get a much better deal

and then we could stay? I have to say that I think that is certainly

true that if you vote to leave all your options are good. You could

certainly strike a great free trade deal as has just been said with the

European Union. But what I don't think you can do is hope that if you

remain, stay in the EU for any real reform. What we were told, if you

remember, what we were told, the stated government policy was that we

should have a reformed EU, a fundamentally reformed, wholesale

change in Britain's relationship with the EU was promised. That has

obviously not been delivered. We were told at the time that Britain

would be perfectly safe to walk away, by the government and the

Prime Minister. That rhetoric has now very much been changed and I

think that was right, the policy was right then. We are confident about

the future of this country and at the moment... Those people watching

need to be clear, your view is that we could vote no, leave the EU and

there could be a second referendum coming back in on better terms? I

don't think that is necessary. If we voted no, that would be it, the

British people would have spoken and we would be out of the EU. There

could not be a second referendum? What do you do, you vote to leave

and then you have the opportunity to strike a series of free trade deals

around the world. Which are currently forbidden. Can I explain

why that is so important? Europe is not the growth area of the world at

the moment. If you look at the relative performance of the Eurozone

economies and the rest of the world it is tragic. Asked yourself, who is

in a better position to negotiate free-trade deals with the rest of

the world? The UK looking after the interests of British business and

industry? Or the European Commission who currently have sole

responsibility for negotiating those agreements? And of whom only 3.6% of

the officials are British. I am asked myself how to persuade you to

give me slightly shorter answers, because we have a lot to get

through. Let's assume we voted to leave, we fought for Brexit. The

thing which happens immediately after that is article 50 is

triggered and we immediately begin negotiations about leaving. You are

shaking your head, why? As soon as you leave the EU treaties remain in

force for at least two years, they are grandfathered on and you have

plenty of time to negotiate new free-trade arrangements. I have to

say that I think one of the feeblest arguments from the remainders is

that we are so emaciated in our diplomatic and commercial abilities

today that we could not negotiate free-trade our self and that we have

two entrusted to these brilliant officials in the European

Commission. I think that is absurd. But 66 different new trade deals

would have to be negotiated and that is for everything from shoes and

marmalade, it's a complicated process. This is like, the jailer

has accidentally left the door open and people can see the land beyond

and everyone is suddenly wrangling about the terrors of the world

outside. It would be wonderful. It would be a huge weight lifted from

British business. It is very sad... Someone like John Longworth who

shares my view and has great experience of British business and

industry should have paid quite a heavy price it seems from what has

happened today for sharing the optimistic view. You said the agents

of Project Fear had got him out by bullying, who did you mean? It is

certainly the case as far as I can tell... Did you mean the Prime

Minister? He has been asked to step down for expressing a passionate and

optimistic view of this country's chances. Perhaps for the benefit,

can you imagine the CBI doing the same to any of its leading figures?

You don't think necessarily that number ten believed or manipulated

this? Younger, fitter journalists than this can discover what

happened. Let's turn back to the sunlit uplands you were describing,

because you for you get to them there would be pitied of uncertainty

and dislocation. You use the analogy of the Nike. There are plenty of

people who think the cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the

cost of staying inward beehive. There would be an and economic shock

to produce downward dislocation. Gerard Lyons says very clearly that

Britain would be better off outside and reformed EU. Leaving the EU

would be an economic shock and most of these shocks depress economic

activity. Thus economic forecasts which focus on a couple of years

ahead show that leaving the EU is always worse than the alternative.

After that... That's not true. That is what he said! These are his own

words. The best future is to get out of one and reformed EU. Can I just

explain for the benefit of the viewers who remain faithful

listening to this conversation, why I think, what I think the problem

with the EU is. It boils down... I have given you the chance to do

that. Let me explain. One last time. It has become injurious to

government in this country. Even as Mayor of London I have encountered

the delay caused by the EU. Crossrail, the tunnels, the EU

decided, such is the Stockholm syndrome capture of officials in

this country, they decided to interpret the directive on

trans-European networks in such a way to insist Crossrail tunnels had

to be 50% bigger to accommodate German trains. In the unlikelihood

of German trains having to go through these tunnels. That would

have cost billions and we had to spend literally a year to fend off

that demand. Second it was horrific to be told that there was nothing I

could do, nothing the Secretary of State for an sport could do, to

ensure we had safer tipper trucks on the streets of London to stop

cyclists and vulnerable road users being crushed. The EU agreed with

their argument in 2015 and has put forward legislation to allow safer

tipper trucks. It is blocked and there is no chance to get it through

until 2021 or 2022 because it is currently opposed by, the commission

might be in favour, but it is opposed by the French and the

Swedish because they have truck businesses which don't want to see

it. What has happened... It is coming in, this is Project Fear. In

2011, 2012 we decided to give up type approval for vehicles to the

European Union. We can no longer control what type of trucks we have

on the streets of London. That, for me, is a very important issue of

political control and accountability. People feel it very

strongly. The third area... We need to move on, we have a lot to cover.

I will tell you what I will cover. This is not the Boris Johnson sure,

it is The Andrew Marr Show, I ask the questions. I have complete

sovereignty. Unlike the UK! The single market, you were always a

great supporter of it, you accept that if we leave the EU we must

leave the single market? The single market people will say what do you

mean by the single market, it is a huge territory now which comprises

the member states of the European Union. Would we be able to trade

freely with that territory? I think we would. But would we leave it as

an institution? If I am trying to sell my marmalade to Italy and the

Italians say your marmalade has too many PEPs purge are and we will not

accept it, then there are rules -- too many pips purge are. You would

still be able to sell your marmalade. They would be keeping it

out and if I am outside the single market I'm outside the rules which

stop discrimination. There are plenty of countries who export more

per capita to the EU than we do, Switzerland is not in the European

Union and they get around this problem. One of the interesting

features... Are you in favour of leaving the European market or not?

One of the interesting features of the last 30, 40 years is American

exports to the European Union, the US, have increased faster than ours.

They are not members of the single market. Let me explain what the

single market is, it is a single judicial system whereby more and

more power is taken away from... Individual member states and given

EU institutions. And Boris Johnson has said I want to

campaign for the single market. For free trade with the European Union.

That is what we need and what we will get. Let me explain why the

single market is evolving in the direction that I think... I would

like to be able to campaign for the single market. Boris Johnson, on

this programme. It depends how you define your terms. I'm talking about

the great trade zone that is the European Union, I want to be able to

trade freely with that zone, but I don't want to be subject to more and

more top-down regulation. Can I just explain what the problem is with the

single market, because it is a legal problem. When you vote in this

referendum, the status quo isn't on the ballot paper. You cannot vote

just to remain in the single market because the single market is

changing. The project now is to rescue the euro by creating an ever

denser series of political arrangements based around... The

eurozone. We are not in the eurozone. It is clear that they want

to harmonise property rights, social law, in all sorts of ways they will

impact the entire European Union, including the UK. You have changed

your view, you used to be in favour of the single market, I've got the

quotes, now you are saying we should get out of it. You are equivocating

on the term single market. It is not a complicated term. It is because it

involves a top-down system of a single judicial... An area in which

there is real free trade. This is BBC claptrap, it is not free trade,

it is trade that is governed by a series of rules that are created by

a single legal authority. To prevent protectionism. And protectionism has

massively decreased in the last 30 years, the tariffs are well down and

we should be able to trade freely with that area. What I object to is

the loss of control. This is an opportunity, a once-in-a-lifetime

opportunity, for the British people to take back control. I just want to

explain the single market. You have explained it three or four times

now. Just tell me, are we going to be in it or not in it, and if we are

not in it are going to negotiate a similar deal? We will negotiate a

deal that gives us access... If you look at free movement, it is very

interesting how that has changed over the years. When I went to live

on the continent, you had to go to the local town hall and present your

papers and show what employment you propose to do, you had to register

and all that kind of thing. Since Maastricht, since that treaty, since

Lisbon, there has been a changing concept. What we now have is

European citizenship, and the idea is we have created a single country.

That is what we are being told. I think most people in this country

don't believe that they share nationhood, that they are part of a

single country called Europe and it seems entirely reasonable to me that

you could have visa free travel for instance, as we have with the United

States, but still require people to show they have capable employment or

prevent people simply claiming benefits. Enough of that. You are

the Mayor of London and you are responsible for the city, among

other things. Have you ever had conversations with leading bankers

who said if we leave the EU we will move our headquarters to the

continent? No. Because that is what Goldman Sachs are saying, they are

saying we have no choice but to move to continental headquarters, and

bank after bank is saying the same thing. I don't believe that to be

true. We have heard the same sorts of threats time and time again.

London has such a massive concentration of skills and talent

here in this city that I don't believe... Talk to serious bankers,

they don't think... Michael Sherwood, CEO for Goldman Sachs,

said banks will not disappear from London overnight but they will over

time if Britain vote no. It would begin with a decline in investment

and hiring. This is their business, they know what they are talking

about. What I would say is that these are the same people who said

that if we didn't join the euro there would be all sorts of economic

disasters. They never happened. You remember Peter Mandelson, the banks,

they were all saying that we had to join the euro or the British economy

would be overwhelmed, we would be isolated, they were wrong then and

they are wrong now. There are people on the other side now, there are

people on both sides, there are people who think, as I do, there is

a great and glorious future for this country. What we are being asked is

to basically take a very pessimistic view of Britain and of our chances.

You could say it is pessimistic to think we couldn't stay inside the EU

and make it better. I think the proof of that is in the recent

reform process. We were promised fundamental reform, we were told we

would get wholesale changes. Anybody looking at the agreement we have now

would be in no doubt this is not fundamental reform. The next item on

the agenda is the creation, the turning, the further evolution of

the single market, what was the common market, into this super state

into which we would inevitably be dragged. You knew what the Prime

Minister was going for from the time of the Bloomberg speech, he has been

candid about what he was trying to do, so you knew at that point it

wasn't the fundamental reform you wanted and you kept quiet. He

briefed you again and again, you were agonising, going through this

process. He rolled out the red carpet for you, and then when you

finally decided you didn't even speak to him face-to-face, you sent

him a text message. Can you understand why he is livid with you?

I wasn't at the meeting where the deal was discussed because I'm not

in the Cabinet, but what is certainly the case is that in the

days leading up to that summit and indeed while the summit was going

on, there was a huge effort going on which I was involved in to try to

make sense of the so-called sovereignty clauses. A huge

intellectual effort went into creating this language by which we

could somehow ensure that our Supreme Court, our House of Commons,

could overturn judgments of the European Court of justice if we

felt, if Britain felt that they were in some way capricious or if they

were going beyond... Exceeding their powers, exactly. Finally we had some

language that seemed to work. I was very pleased with it. Hang on, we

went back to the Government lawyers and the Government lawyers blew up

and they said this basically avoids our obligations under the 1972

European communities act, it doesn't work. That is the reality. You

cannot express the sovereignty of Parliament and accept the 1972

European communities act. There is no way of doing both at the same

time. This was the moment when you decided which way you are going to

go, was it? We were told... Specific question. Yes. We were told there

would be fundamental reform, and reform is not achievable so we now

have a glorious opportunity. To get back to this thing about what is the

single market, the key thing about the single market is that it has

this single judicial system, and interestingly, if you look at the

other free trade groupings around the world, none of them are trying

to create this single country, this single political unit. None of them

have a single currency. The Prime Minister clearly thinks you are

doing this out of personal ambition because you want to take him out.

The longer we spend talking about this political stuff, the less time

people have to focus on the real issues. You said you have no

political ambitions left the other day, I find that hard to believe.

The greasy ball is bouncing towards you, are you really saying no? I

have to say, with the possible exception of Dan Hannan, I don't

believe there is anybody in British media or British politics who has

written more or said more over the last 30 years of the democratic

deficiencies of the European Union. For the last few years I have said

clearly that if we didn't get reform we should be prepared to walk away.

I think we now have a golden opportunity to shrug off a

regulatory legislative burden. As Michael Gove rightly says in his

interview this morning, look at the consequences... You know the Prime

Minister cannot carry on if he loses this, don't you? You cannot look me

in the eye and say David Cameron will carry on as Prime Minister...

To the best of my knowledge there is not a single European leader in the

last 20 years who has had to step down as a result of a referendum

whether on Europe or not. You are just trying to personalise it to

make it more interesting. I want to talk about the real choice. And you

have had plenty of time so to do. Boris Johnson, thank you very much

indeed. That's all we have

time for this morning. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour

with the Sunday Politics I'll be back at the same time next

week with - we hope - the Chancellor on the eve

of the Budget, plus the But for now, we leave

you with Benjamin Grosvenor They're about to embark on a UK

tour, and they're going to play