17/04/2016 The Andrew Marr Show


17/04/2016

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Hard to believe, but the EU debate only

:00:21.:00:22.

Between the competing camps, the argument is turning nasty.

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Before long the weather will turn and this foul, cold spring will end.

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When it does, for the rest of us, it's going to be make-your-mind-up

:00:29.:00:31.

As Vote Leave are designated the official campaign

:00:32.:00:49.

to quit the EU, I'm joined by Chris Grayling, one of the senior

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Conservatives who disagrees with his own government.

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And on the remain side, Labour's Yvette Cooper.

:00:55.:00:58.

What does she make of Jeremy Corbyn's call

:00:59.:01:02.

The EU crisis is bound up with the crisis in Syria.

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David Davis, the former Tory Minister, has this week been

:01:09.:01:11.

to speak directly to President Assad and will tell us all.

:01:12.:01:23.

So what, meanwhile, do our European partners make of Britain's

:01:24.:01:25.

I've been talking to Emmanuel Macron, the minister

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in charge of the French economy and a possible presidential

:01:31.:01:35.

candidate, who warns there will be a price to pay if we leave.

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We have to be very clear that Brexit will have consequences.

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Reviewing the papers, one-time Labour supporting

:01:45.:02:04.

novelist Tony Parsons, who has voted for Ukip

:02:05.:02:06.

And finally, we're joined by one of the European figures who makes

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everybody feel better, Johann Sebastian Bach,

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as performed by one of our leading musical lights,

:02:14.:02:15.

But first the news with Christian Fraser.

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At least 77 people have been killed following a powerful earthquake off

:02:19.:02:22.

The epicentre was 27km from the coastal town of Muisne,

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A state of emergency has been declared across much

:02:26.:02:29.

of the west of the country, as Reged Ahmed explains.

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This is amateur footage of the earthquake hitting

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a supermarket in the capital, Quito.

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As the shelves shake and pots smash to the floor,

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it shows just how violent the quake was.

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And yet this effect was still more than 170km from the epicentre,

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which hit on the coast in the north-east of the country.

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Once the 7.8 magnitude earthquake hit, reports of damage started

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Pictures on social media revealed just how widespread it might be.

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In Guayaquil, much further to the south east, an overpass

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collapsed, rescue workers rushing to the scene.

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There was also a tsunami warning as authorities started to report

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on the death toll and ask people to stay away from coastal areas.

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We are continuing to receive information from the national system

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regarding health during this regrettable loss of life.

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The numbers still need to be confirmed.

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The entire public force is in a state of maximum alert

:03:35.:03:37.

As the hours go by, the true extent of the damage,

:03:38.:03:53.

and the death toll in Ecuador, will only become clearer.

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Nearly a quarter of a million people have been ordered

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to leave their homes in southern Japan amid fears of

:03:59.:04:01.

At least 41 people have died and dozens more are missing,

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feared buried, after two earthquakes struck in recent days.

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Rescue efforts have been hampered by heavy rain.

:04:09.:04:12.

More than 150 countries will begin using a new polio vaccine in a final

:04:13.:04:15.

It's expected to be more effective in targeting the last few

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Health officials say the change-over is a sign of how close the world

:04:20.:04:23.

Two 14-year-olds have been charged with murdering a woman

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Police have named the victims as Elizabeth Edwards, who was 49,

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and her 13-year-old daughter Katie, whose bodies were found

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at a property in Spalding on Friday afternoon.

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One of the biggest Roman villas in Britain has been unearthed

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in Wiltshire after part of a mosaic was discovered by workmen laying

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Archaeologists, who've found coins, brooches and the remains

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of oysters, have described the villa as elaborate

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I'll be back with the headlines just before 10 o'clock.

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The visit of Kate and William to India and Bhutan produced a

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sensational series of photographs. There is the one to top them all,

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the two of them in front of that # owl, recreating the famous lonely

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pose that Princess Diana used to announce that her marriage was over.

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Happy ending in all senses. And this, Britain faces economic rupture

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if we leave the EU, says the government. There is a tragedy

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report coming out tomorrow about economic consequences. A different

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story on Observer. 10,000 kids do not have primary school places, we

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will talk about that. And we will talk about Lily Allen's interview,

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revealing that she has been the victim of a horrendous stocking case

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for seven years until she has not been taken seriously. And Ian

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Botham, swinging for Brexit, it says. The pictures we saw in front

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of the Sunday Telegraph, and then exceptionally well written piece.

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And another story we will be talking about, MP's porn star lover showing

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Cabinet papers. Is this something or nothing? We will find out shortly.

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We will start with you, Tony, and the Sunday Times, Ian Botham. It is

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the first weekend proper of campaigning in the EU referendum. It

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is Stardust time. The celebrity and door Smedts are being wheeled out.

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People who would like us to leave Brussels have got endorsement from

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Ian Botham, the celebrated national treasure. If in doubt, get Ian

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Botham. It is a short piece but it will have a big impact. Ian Botham

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makes the point you would expect him to make about the way the EU has not

:07:03.:07:08.

signed off on their accounts for 20 years, the endemic corruption, the

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loss of national sovereignty, all of that. He makes the point that he

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spent his professional life around sports men from Australia, Canada,

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India, South Africa, the Commonwealth of Nations that we will

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be hearing about this week with the Queen's 90th birthday. He makes the

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case for us leaving Brussels as being to embrace those old alliances

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that we have been too dismissive about. Who do people really listen

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to? If they do not trust politicians, do they trust bankers,

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cricketers, central bankers? Everyone is looking for the

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trustworthy voice. I am not sure it makes a difference to anyone. I am

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not sure that Ian Botham will persuade anyone to change their

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vote. I think it is possible you can have a celebrity endorsement that

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does harm. It is Ian Botham against President Obama this week. Yes, it

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is. I think that the intervention of President Obama could backfire.

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Unlike Ian Botham, President Obama does not have a vote. You have

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chosen that story from the Observer? Yes, President Obama coming to town,

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Downing Street hoping this would be the direct intervention from the

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president. He is the cool guy, young in people's mains. He is champing

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those who want to remain. Boris Johnson also made the point that the

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Americans Walmart sign international treaties over the oceans, never mind

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anything else. He says that President Obama is a hypocrite. Yes,

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he accused him of hypocrisy. It is being dressed up as a conspiracy by

:08:57.:09:01.

people who want to leave. President Obama is part of this supranational

:09:02.:09:04.

crew who are coming over and telling us what to do. At the same time, who

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is coming out to bats-mac to stay in Europe? You have people like

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President Obama, leading a country, on his way out, does he have to live

:09:16.:09:21.

say anything he does not want to? Probably not. You have organisations

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like the IMF, big organisations with a vested interest. It is about

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trust. Who has got the facts? Ian Botham, Barack Obama? We saw this

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with the Scottish referendum. The side to vote out of anything is the

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cooler cited beyond. It is doing something different. Cheerleading

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for the status quo is left to people like Barack Obama. That is

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interesting, because the opinion polls put the two sides neck and

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neck, but I do not feel there is a parody of passion. The argument to

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remain is not being made with the same blood than conviction and

:10:03.:10:06.

emotion. Boris Johnson is right, Barack Obama will not allow freedom

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of movement from Latin America, he will not take orders from the

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Canadians, they do not sign up to the International criminal Court.

:10:18.:10:23.

Boris Johnson give the opposition camp a good name, despite being on

:10:24.:10:28.

the other side. This story is bleeding into other stories. We will

:10:29.:10:32.

talk about the front page of the Observer. There is a shortage of

:10:33.:10:37.

primary school places. If you have young children, the big story this

:10:38.:10:41.

week is the letter that you will receive tomorrow, when you find out

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if your child got their place in their choice of primary school. It

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is a massive thing you view a parent or child. There will be massive

:10:51.:10:56.

disappointment. One year ago, 20% of people were disappointed. This year,

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it is likely to be higher. It ties in with the story on the front page

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of the Sunday Telegraph, about one in four waiting more than a week to

:11:07.:11:10.

see their GP. It is at the stage now where you could die of full-page

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waiting to see your local doctor. -- old age. The evidence suggests that

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our infrastructure is collapsing under the weight of numbers. Is this

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connected with immigration? It is possibly I'm connected, there are

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too many people. We have numbers of people that we are not capable of

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educating, giving proper health care. No one can address it, it is

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too big a problem. I said at the beginning that you were a Labour

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voter and you have no voted for Ukip and the Tories. Is this because you

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think Labour have turned their back on working-class old Labour voters?

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I am a former member of the Labour Party. It is a 20th-century

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political party. They have completely disconnected with the

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working class of this country. They are terrified to say anything about

:12:07.:12:12.

immigration. It shows how far removed the are from ordinary

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people. People have been completely betrayed. It is not just the working

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class that have been betrayed by the Labour Party. I will put some of

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this two Yvette Cooper. They have never had a female leader in 116

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years. Well observed. It could've been the woman who will be joining

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us shortly. And no to the Mail On Sunday, page after page of John

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Whittingdale and his life. There are lots of embarrassing details we will

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not go into. Does it amount to anything as a political story? It

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has been labelled as a Tory sex scandal across these pages. I have

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gone through all of this forever everybody at home, so they do not

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have to. Whenever you look at anything in a newspaper, you would

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want to think, what is the public interest? Why do we need to know

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about the private life of the culture secretary in such detail?

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The shocking thing is he is not married! Is it acceptable for Tories

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to have sex? It is nine o'clock in the morning, I do not know if I am

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up to this yet, I only have water in the glass. You have a culture

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secretary who is heavily involved in how the media in this country work.

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He is almost being a test case for privacy in the post-Leveson world.

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This is the privacy minister. There are two things, his private life,

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what is up for grabs, what is OK? It seems to have been justified by a

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brilliant photo. He broke protocol at Chequers and took this photo and

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allegedly said that -- and allegedly sent it to one of his lovers, off

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all the Cabinet, looking like they were having a jolly time. It is also

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said that his red box, sensitive papers, were left out for some of

:14:09.:14:13.

these women to see. He bragged about his job. Some men have a bit of an

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eagle. Friends of John Whittingdale say that no one saw the Cabinet

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papers. There are pages of this. We could not not talk about this if we

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are looking at the Sunday papers. The allegation was that John

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Whittingdale would be hostile to the BBC in the future. The newspapers do

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not want to do those stories to look after their own interests. Here is

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the Mail On Sunday disproving that. Some of the pages I am not sure you

:14:46.:14:49.

could look out on a family show. Politicians being caught with their

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trousers down will always be in the Sunday papers. I would like to talk

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about Christine Lagarde. The managing director of the IMF has

:15:02.:15:03.

been mourning about the stagnation of the global economy. What I always

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think is wonderful about Christine Lagarde morning about the global

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economy, she does not pay any income tax. Perhaps if she started paying

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tax. She is part of that group who have risen above it.

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Another person we look up to in a different sense is Lily Allen, but

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she has given a fairly ringing interview to the Observer about

:15:34.:15:41.

being stalked. This is huge. Lily Allen has been off the scene for a

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while, she came back last year with an album and one of the things she

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says has been keeping her indoors, keeping her feeling like she cannot

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be herself is the fact she has been stopped for seven years which

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culminated in this man getting into not only her house but her bedroom,

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armed with some sort of knife. It took for her handbag to be stolen

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for the police to take this seriously. It is anti-stalking week.

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It is 700,000 women per year, and that's only the ones who report,

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being stalked in this country. That's basically what percent of the

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population. She has teamed up with the women's equality party, with a

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campaign to save police are not taking this kind of thing seriously

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enough, that the structures in this country are not set up properly to

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deal with these issues specifically to women who are having to deal with

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this kind of thing. It will be interesting to see if there is a

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proper police response. Terrifying, and when you read it took her

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handbag to be stolen, and it was returned the next lights burned to a

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cinder on the roof of her car, now we understand it is a burglary, and

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we shall say that only recently was added that stalking was a crime of

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the mind so there's a lot for police to learn from this. Slightly more

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cheerful news I mentioned right at beginning. Yes, it is perhaps the

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most iconic Princess Diana image is remodelled with Kate and William

:17:22.:17:27.

outside the Taj Mahal. And it is beautiful but can I point something

:17:28.:17:31.

out. There is the picture in the Observer and all of the towers

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behind have scaffolding on them, and on the Sunday Express the

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scaffolding has magically disappeared. They work very fast. My

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favourite detail was apparently the bench was so hot before they sat

:17:46.:17:50.

down some workers had to come and douse it in ice water and dry it.

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They looked very comfortable. That is a very happy note to finish on,

:17:56.:17:58.

thank you very much indeed. Jeremy Corbyn was accused by some

:17:59.:18:00.

of making a half-hearted speech Whether he'll play a prominent

:18:01.:18:03.

role in the referendum campaign remains to be seen,

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but among Labour enthusiasts for the UK to remain

:18:08.:18:09.

in is the former Cabinet minister and leadership contender

:18:10.:18:11.

Yvette Cooper, You may have heard Tony Parsons

:18:12.:18:20.

pointing out that he feels the Labour Party really let down a lot

:18:21.:18:24.

of Labour voters by allowing so many migrants in from the EU for so long

:18:25.:18:29.

and that had an effect on wages and job security and on creaking public

:18:30.:18:33.

services. You have spoken about this in the past so how do you feel about

:18:34.:18:38.

your leader saying we didn't let too many people in, in his speech this

:18:39.:18:43.

week? You and I have discussed this many times before and I said I think

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we should have had transitional controls on Eastern Europe, we

:18:49.:18:51.

should have done that and we also should have done more when we were

:18:52.:18:55.

in Government on issues around exploitation and undercutting but

:18:56.:18:58.

that is something we have all been campaigning for for a long time. It

:18:59.:19:02.

is something Jeremy talked about in his speech, the need to deal with

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undercutting, and it is important to do that. He did say I don't think

:19:08.:19:13.

too many have come, and he is wrong on that you think? I didn't hear him

:19:14.:19:20.

talk about transitional controls, I don't know what the issue is there,

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and there is concern about migration across the country but what's the

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implications for this for the European referendum is I think

:19:30.:19:33.

there's a big problem with a lot of the leave campaign promising we will

:19:34.:19:37.

have a single market and then we will restrict all immigration, and

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all the evidence shows that if you want to be in the single market, you

:19:41.:19:47.

end up having to agree to the free movement rules. If we want to change

:19:48.:19:52.

the rules, you have got to be in there to argue for reform. You

:19:53.:19:55.

cannot get reform if you stay on the outside. Nigel Lawson sitting in

:19:56.:20:01.

that chair last week said he didn't think the single market was a very

:20:02.:20:08.

big issue, but coming back to immigration, can I make it clear,

:20:09.:20:11.

you talk about transitional controls because you think too many did,. I

:20:12.:20:17.

think you are in danger of recycling an argument we have had many times.

:20:18.:20:23.

I think the pace of migration as a result of not having immigration

:20:24.:20:26.

controls and not having the transition controls was too fast. We

:20:27.:20:32.

have to deal with the situation we are in now. We are outside Schengen

:20:33.:20:37.

so we obviously have border controls and things that other parts don't

:20:38.:20:43.

have... But we also have to allow in EU people if they want to come. But

:20:44.:20:47.

if you have proper border controls you can do the security checks the

:20:48.:20:50.

leave campaign have said you cannot have. A lot of people have said that

:20:51.:20:59.

if I am worried about migration, the obvious answer is to leave the EU.

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They have been given a false promise that you can close off your borders

:21:05.:21:09.

and also have the free trade and single market access that we have

:21:10.:21:13.

always had as part of Europe and you can pick and choose. Those who are

:21:14.:21:18.

not saying that, what are they saying instead? They are saying it

:21:19.:21:24.

is OK to have 10% tariffs on cars, on our financial services. That is a

:21:25.:21:31.

real risk. It is important because the Labour approaches we have got to

:21:32.:21:36.

protect our manufacturing jobs. We could lose ?100 billion worth of

:21:37.:21:41.

trade. We could lose the jobs are industrial towns depend on and also

:21:42.:21:45.

some of the employment rights that our trade unions have been

:21:46.:21:50.

campaigning for. There's a good reason you have the TUC as well as

:21:51.:21:54.

the IMF, all talking about the real risks to our jobs and economy and it

:21:55.:21:59.

is working people across Britain who will be most hardest-hit if we end

:22:00.:22:06.

up losing these jobs. Jeremy Corbyn suggested this week there should be

:22:07.:22:11.

an EU-wide minimum wage adjusted to local conditions. How would that

:22:12.:22:15.

work? Its that's not actually what he said. He was talking about

:22:16.:22:19.

employment rights, for example you have things like paternity leave

:22:20.:22:26.

rights so that stops other companies right across Europe getting rid of

:22:27.:22:31.

maternity rights in order to undercut our companies here in

:22:32.:22:35.

Britain. What he actually said is there has to be a case for a minimum

:22:36.:22:41.

wage tied to economic conditions across the continent, which implies

:22:42.:22:45.

the EU centrally will set minimum wages for all of the countries. Are

:22:46.:22:51.

you suggesting it wouldn't work? That is a link to economic

:22:52.:22:56.

conditions. Do you understand this proposal? What you need is a way to

:22:57.:23:01.

stop other countries undercutting and that's why you work together. If

:23:02.:23:08.

you want Google to pay tax, if you want big global companies to pay

:23:09.:23:12.

tax, one country cannot do it on their own. We have to get countries

:23:13.:23:15.

to work together in order to do that. You are a Labour politician.

:23:16.:23:22.

One of the things people say is that if Britain leaves the EU there is a

:23:23.:23:26.

strong chance Scotland will leave the UK, which is then an existential

:23:27.:23:35.

moment for Labour, the part is over -- the party is over. I think it is

:23:36.:23:41.

an existential moment for the country, the immediate issue is the

:23:42.:23:44.

existential crisis for the country. I think it would be terrible for our

:23:45.:23:51.

country if we ended up firstly pulling out of Europe and losing the

:23:52.:23:55.

ability to have an impact across the world, and then losing Scotland

:23:56.:23:59.

breaking up as well. In the end it is a Labour value, we are stronger

:24:00.:24:03.

if we stand together then if we leave people to swim or sink alone.

:24:04.:24:08.

Even the Catholic Church was making that argument this week as well. We

:24:09.:24:14.

were talking about Scotland a moment ago, surely it would be catastrophic

:24:15.:24:17.

for the Labour Party if you come third in the Scottish elections

:24:18.:24:23.

coming up. Kezia Dugdale is working immensely hard, we know we still

:24:24.:24:27.

have the shadow of what happened in referendum... If you were beaten by

:24:28.:24:33.

the Tories in Scotland, that would be the hideous and horrendous moment

:24:34.:24:38.

for the party. We are campaigning for every vote. Before we finished,

:24:39.:24:43.

I can see you are coming to the end, it is important this issue about our

:24:44.:24:47.

I can see you are coming to the end, economy and public services. Ask

:24:48.:24:50.

Chris Grayling about this later, he's been claiming that somehow

:24:51.:24:53.

Chris Grayling about this later, pulling out of Europe will save our

:24:54.:24:54.

NHS. We should be pulling out of Europe will save our

:24:55.:24:58.

Tory government responsible for the pulling out of Europe will save our

:24:59.:25:01.

state of our NHS, not Brussels, and we would be a poorer country with

:25:02.:25:05.

less resources to support our NHS if we pull out. I have a sheath of

:25:06.:25:10.

questions for Chris Grayling, but thank you.

:25:11.:25:12.

Let's be honest, it's been a confusing and rather

:25:13.:25:17.

slapping us round the chops like a piece of wet cod.

:25:18.:25:20.

Just tell us when it's going to end for goodness sake,

:25:21.:25:23.

Let's see what we can do. We are making a start with sky 's the

:25:24.:25:34.

bluest of blue across many parts of the UK. This was the picture

:25:35.:25:40.

recently from south Wales. You can see that is extending across much of

:25:41.:25:41.

the UK but not quite everywhere. That is accompanied by a fairly

:25:42.:25:56.

brisk breeze in Scotland, so not quite as pleasant. A bit of patchy

:25:57.:26:00.

cloud for England and Wales but not spoiling things too much, the winds

:26:01.:26:03.

here rather lighter so temperatures a bit higher than yesterday, a

:26:04.:26:08.

decent amount of sunshine. That will start to feel a little more like

:26:09.:26:12.

spring, and not quite as cold tonight either. We had a sharp frost

:26:13.:26:16.

under the clear skies last night. The wind is picking up and the cloud

:26:17.:26:21.

is working south, you might get a touch of frost across the southern

:26:22.:26:30.

counties of England before that cloud arrives but generally

:26:31.:26:32.

temperatures around six or 7 degrees. In the week ahead a lot of

:26:33.:26:35.

dry weather to come, warmer by day in the sunshine, still some chilly

:26:36.:26:40.

nights around but overall much less discombobulated and for you in the

:26:41.:26:41.

week ahead. The Syrian civil war has been

:26:42.:26:48.

going on for nearly five years. It's claimed at least a quarter

:26:49.:26:52.

of 1 million lives, and more than four million people

:26:53.:26:55.

have fled the country, triggering shock

:26:56.:26:57.

waves across Europe. David Davis, Tory MP,

:26:58.:26:58.

has just come back from Damascus and a face-to-face meeting

:26:59.:27:01.

with President Bashar Assad. You have been speaking to Bashar

:27:02.:27:12.

al-Assad, who was regarded around the world as one of the most evil

:27:13.:27:16.

dictator is going. How did you find him? He oversees a regime which

:27:17.:27:25.

murders and tortures prisoners and carries out barrel bombing. He was

:27:26.:27:31.

polite, courteous. We had warned him before we arrived that we were going

:27:32.:27:34.

to be very frank with him and his opening words were please be blunt,

:27:35.:27:40.

so we were. So you asked him about the barrel bombs and the torture?

:27:41.:27:46.

How did he respond? My colleague was very fierce about it. He sidestepped

:27:47.:27:51.

the barrel bomb argument but on the torture and killing of prisoners he

:27:52.:27:55.

tried to claim that that was down to enemy propaganda, he said our

:27:56.:28:01.

opponents are very good with online propaganda. Of course that may be

:28:02.:28:07.

true to some extent, it was two years ago a British citizen was

:28:08.:28:13.

tortured, we think, and killed in their custody and there is other

:28:14.:28:18.

evidence, it is still going on. Other ministers in his government

:28:19.:28:21.

put it down to revenge and their lack of control. His troops are

:28:22.:28:28.

moving forward again thanks to President Putin's intervention, did

:28:29.:28:33.

he talk to you about that? Do you think it feels safe as a result?

:28:34.:28:39.

Absolutely, I asked because I was interested in why Putin downscaled

:28:40.:28:44.

what they were doing. The Russian army completely but the Syrian army

:28:45.:28:50.

back on its feet. I asked him why he downscaled it and he said because

:28:51.:28:54.

Russia were being criticised for stalling the talks, taking away the

:28:55.:28:58.

incentive for him to negotiate. Almost as a throwaway line he said,

:28:59.:29:03.

but Putin said we will not let you lose. Which for me was the most

:29:04.:29:08.

important phrase of the entire visit because that defines what the

:29:09.:29:12.

outcome will be. If the Russians will not let them lose, there are

:29:13.:29:17.

two possible outcomes. The jihadist victory, which would be a disaster

:29:18.:29:22.

in my view, it is not on the cards but I've negotiated outcome or

:29:23.:29:28.

Syrian victory is on the cards. It wasn't long ago we were being told

:29:29.:29:31.

70,000 moderate Syrian fighters taking on the regime by the

:29:32.:29:37.

Government, any of that? No, where we could we talk to people like NGOs

:29:38.:29:42.

and journalist both inside Damascus and Beirut, and the most telling

:29:43.:29:52.

comment was from a very good NGO leader in Damascus who said that

:29:53.:29:58.

there is nobody that the west would recognise as a moderate amongst the

:29:59.:30:03.

various sorts of jihadist and so-called freedom fighters. It is an

:30:04.:30:06.

unappetising choice between sticking with Assad and the Russians on one

:30:07.:30:10.

hand, and allowing the turmoil of extremist groups on the other. Is

:30:11.:30:17.

there a way forward. There is a negotiated outcome. The reason I

:30:18.:30:21.

went is because Europe's two biggest problems are massive security

:30:22.:30:25.

problems, 1000 jihadist a year arriving in Europe, and even

:30:26.:30:29.

hundreds of thousands of refugees, both of those go back to the Syrian

:30:30.:30:34.

conflict. The longer it goes on, the worst Appleby.

:30:35.:30:44.

A negotiated outcome. At the moment, with Syria just under the control of

:30:45.:30:52.

the Russians, who are not going to stop the torturing, the killing of

:30:53.:30:56.

prisoners. It seems to me that the West has got to get a card in this

:30:57.:31:02.

game. I think one of the most important things the West could do

:31:03.:31:07.

is draft a plan to rebuild Syria. It used to be the Germany of the land,

:31:08.:31:14.

a breadbasket, pharmaceuticals, textiles, you name it. If you want

:31:15.:31:19.

this, you have got to negotiate properly, to create a civilised

:31:20.:31:23.

regime. Do you take the view that Assad eventually must go? The other

:31:24.:31:28.

thing that the head of the NGO said, is Assad stood for election

:31:29.:31:32.

tomorrow, he would win. When he stood a few years ago, they would

:31:33.:31:36.

have had a general election this week, it was a farce, when he stood

:31:37.:31:42.

a few years ago, he got 63%. He would probably get more, because

:31:43.:31:45.

everybody was terrified of the upturn at it. We will leave that to

:31:46.:31:52.

the people of Syria. If the West was to put Assad of the table for the

:31:53.:31:56.

moment, would you do that? I would not make that a red line, I would

:31:57.:32:01.

say we want a democratic, civilised state. At the moment you have a

:32:02.:32:09.

repressive state was a civilised society. Churches alongside mosques,

:32:10.:32:11.

women not winning fails, you name it. You want to maintain that piece

:32:12.:32:17.

well rebuilding Syria. I would talk to Vladimir Putin, I would talk to

:32:18.:32:21.

the Assad government. This was here before Assad took over. His father

:32:22.:32:26.

created the resume. The machinery has been there for a long time.

:32:27.:32:31.

Since you're a leading enthusiast for the league side of the argument,

:32:32.:32:35.

let me ask you about the comments of Ken Clarke this week, the Prime

:32:36.:32:40.

Minister would not last 30 seconds if we voted for Brexit. You asking

:32:41.:32:45.

me if I agree with that? Yes. I do not. If we vote for Brexit, it is

:32:46.:32:51.

clear that David Cameron cannot delete that bit of his government's

:32:52.:32:58.

activities, the renegotiation. He would have to appoint someone who

:32:59.:33:03.

the public and the party had faith in, but to most importantly believed

:33:04.:33:07.

in the negotiation. If you did that, I see no reason why he should not go

:33:08.:33:13.

on. We are talking about someone who has been on the campaign side to

:33:14.:33:21.

leave the EU. Someone in the foreign is? Go away. You're referring to me.

:33:22.:33:32.

Let's stick to the plausible. If he brought in Boris Johnson Michael

:33:33.:33:36.

Gove, to do the renegotiation, you think he could remain as Prime

:33:37.:33:40.

Minister? Yes, if they give those people are not power to do the job.

:33:41.:33:46.

-- enough power. France's Economy Minister

:33:47.:33:48.

is a young man in a hurry. At 38, Emmanuel Macron has formed

:33:49.:33:50.

a new movement, "En Marche!", and vows to reform both his

:33:51.:33:53.

country and the wider EU. Many French believe he'll

:33:54.:33:56.

run for the presidency, Macron ruffled British

:33:57.:33:58.

feathers when he warned that if the United Kingdom left the EU,

:33:59.:34:01.

France would no longer feel obliged to stop migrants heading

:34:02.:34:04.

from Calais to these shores. When we met, this passionate

:34:05.:34:06.

supporter of the EU began by making You are a great country,

:34:07.:34:09.

and in such a condition, your future as a great country

:34:10.:34:27.

is not outside the EU. It is to be part of the club

:34:28.:34:29.

and to transform the EU I think we need a strong UK

:34:30.:34:32.

and the UK is much stronger Because that is our

:34:33.:34:37.

collective challenge. It is true that if you leave,

:34:38.:34:44.

probably, some people, especially those involved in finance

:34:45.:34:52.

and probably tech, will leave to join the EU and work

:34:53.:34:54.

within the European Union. Definitely Brexit will have

:34:55.:34:59.

direct consequences It will impact the passport,

:35:00.:35:01.

the financial passport, the relationship with the EU,

:35:02.:35:09.

and today the UK is working closely with the rest of the EU,

:35:10.:35:12.

because you're completely enshrined You have been quoted in the past

:35:13.:35:15.

saying that if Brexit happened there would not be migrants

:35:16.:35:20.

in Calais any more. From a political point of view

:35:21.:35:22.

it is obvious it will be extremely tough vis-a-vis our people,

:35:23.:35:32.

especially in the north of France, to say, these guys decided to leave,

:35:33.:35:35.

but we will keep everything No, you will have big

:35:36.:35:38.

political pressure. That is why the president,

:35:39.:35:42.

during the last summit, confirmed that for sure

:35:43.:35:44.

there will be consequences on those different issues

:35:45.:35:47.

in case of a Brexit. And that means more migrants

:35:48.:35:50.

coming through the tunnel And that means more migrants

:35:51.:35:53.

coming through the tunnel Does that not mean that northern

:35:54.:36:00.

France becomes more of a magnet for migrants and creates bigger

:36:01.:36:03.

problems for France? For me, I am not in this approach

:36:04.:36:05.

to create fears and agitate people. That is not a good

:36:06.:36:12.

motivation for votes. My perspective vis-a-vis Brexit,

:36:13.:36:16.

and your decision to be taken, is more about your role

:36:17.:36:21.

in globalisation today I think the UK is not about becoming

:36:22.:36:24.

Jersey or Guernsey. Today you are strong

:36:25.:36:30.

because you're part of the EU. When you discuss your steel

:36:31.:36:34.

industry with China, you are credible because you're part

:36:35.:36:39.

of the EU, not You would be completely killed

:36:40.:36:42.

otherwise. You would never be in a situation

:36:43.:36:44.

to negotiate face-to-face with the Chinese because your

:36:45.:36:47.

domestic market is not relevant for the Chinese,

:36:48.:36:51.

compared to their domestic market. The EU is the first global domestic

:36:52.:36:55.

market, that is the strength. The problem is surely that

:36:56.:36:59.

lots of people in They say the EU is going to be more

:37:00.:37:01.

and more integrated. It is an integration machine

:37:02.:37:10.

until we get a common EU foreign Even if Britain stays,

:37:11.:37:15.

we will be banging on the outside I think your people and your leaders

:37:16.:37:18.

are extremely vocal when they speak This is something different for me

:37:19.:37:31.

than being against integration. When you look at the situation,

:37:32.:37:41.

the single market, You are more sceptical

:37:42.:37:43.

in terms of monetary policy, I think we managed to find

:37:44.:37:51.

a balance, and to have this balance What would be the consequences

:37:52.:37:58.

of the UK leaving the EU, We have to be very clear that

:37:59.:38:07.

a Brexit will have consequences. At the beginning of the dismantling,

:38:08.:38:14.

everybody which disagrees on one or two points

:38:15.:38:17.

will decide to do the same, On passports, on access

:38:18.:38:20.

to the single market. You will no more be part of the club

:38:21.:38:32.

so you will have consequences. Perhaps we can renegotiate

:38:33.:38:35.

the treaty, like we have with other countries,

:38:36.:38:38.

but with contribution This contribution to the European

:38:39.:38:39.

budget is an access, not automatically,

:38:40.:38:49.

to the fully-fledged single market. You would have the type

:38:50.:38:51.

of relationship we have You have to bear that in mind, for

:38:52.:38:53.

sure you would have consequences. Otherwise it does not make sense

:38:54.:38:59.

to have a European Union. On the other side, I think

:39:00.:39:10.

the reaction we have to put in place for the rest of the member states

:39:11.:39:13.

is precisely to go further, and to propose a series

:39:14.:39:16.

of integration measures, integration proposals,

:39:17.:39:19.

and a roadmap for more integration, precisely to have a proactive

:39:20.:39:24.

and positive perspective for Europe, We have to create movement,

:39:25.:39:26.

not to leave the floor for those For my country, I do believe,

:39:27.:39:33.

as I do believe for the UK, by the way, that the unique way

:39:34.:39:41.

to succeed in globalisation is not to become Singapore or Hong Kong,

:39:42.:39:46.

it is to become a big strong That is our history,

:39:47.:39:49.

that is our future. Let me ask you about one of the big

:39:50.:39:57.

issues between our countries at the moment, which is the future

:39:58.:40:01.

of the Hinkley Point We had thought that was more or less

:40:02.:40:04.

a done deal, but it has been suggested that

:40:05.:40:11.

because of the massive debt that will burden EDF with,

:40:12.:40:15.

that this is no longer something that is definitely going to happen,

:40:16.:40:18.

that is not certain. We are actively working

:40:19.:40:20.

with your company. I had a series of discussions

:40:21.:40:24.

with my counterparts in your government on the technicalities

:40:25.:40:27.

of the deal, to finalise precisely The political commitment

:40:28.:40:30.

is completely confirmed. It is very important for France,

:40:31.:40:41.

it is very important Now we have to finalise the work,

:40:42.:40:46.

and especially the technical and industrial work,

:40:47.:40:53.

very closely with EDF, with the British government,

:40:54.:40:59.

to be in a situation to sign That is my view, from our

:41:00.:41:01.

perspective, because it is very important for our commitment

:41:02.:41:13.

to nuclear energy. I think that is your choice

:41:14.:41:15.

and our choice. You have a new movement, tell me

:41:16.:41:22.

about "En Marche!", what is it for? We have proposed radical reforms,

:41:23.:41:25.

strong reforms, ambitious reforms for the country,

:41:26.:41:46.

without being captured by the classical right

:41:47.:41:48.

and left approach. Because when you look at France,

:41:49.:41:49.

it is the labour market, it is all about balance

:41:50.:41:53.

and relationships between freedom and justice,

:41:54.:41:55.

freedom and security. In one year, we have a

:41:56.:41:57.

presidential election. We have to build, in a new way,

:41:58.:42:05.

in a much more inclusive approach, not just a political programme,

:42:06.:42:08.

but a very precise roadmap with the people to propose

:42:09.:42:13.

to the country on the basis Working with people coming

:42:14.:42:16.

from the right, people And to propose that to the country

:42:17.:42:24.

and try to deliver. When you speak like that,

:42:25.:42:28.

you remind me very much I do not know in your mouth

:42:29.:42:31.

if it is a promise or a threat. If you were persuaded that

:42:32.:42:42.

you were the person to stop Marine Le Pen becoming

:42:43.:42:49.

the next French president, I do not want to enter

:42:50.:42:51.

into such a discussion. Today I work as a minister

:42:52.:42:59.

of the economy for this government. I work very hard because I want

:43:00.:43:02.

to deliver for my country. I launched this movement

:43:03.:43:05.

because I think we have to go beyond and deliver much

:43:06.:43:08.

more, full stop. I accept that but do you think

:43:09.:43:11.

that President Hollande I think it is much too far

:43:12.:43:13.

before the election. It is very tough in all countries

:43:14.:43:21.

to govern today. I think, if he makes

:43:22.:43:25.

a very bold decision, if he explains what he's doing,

:43:26.:43:28.

you definitely could No, I think one year

:43:29.:43:31.

before, it is impossible. Minister, thank you very

:43:32.:43:41.

much for talking to us. The French Economy Minister,

:43:42.:43:43.

Emmanuel Macron. All around the country this week,

:43:44.:43:47.

this leaflet has been dropping It's cost the government ?9 million

:43:48.:43:50.

to tell us directly why we should Last week, Lord Lawson told me this

:43:51.:43:56.

was outrageous propaganda, so I'm going to put some

:43:57.:44:01.

of the points in it to a supporter of us leaving the EU,

:44:02.:44:05.

Cabinet minister Chris Grayling. Would you regard this thing is

:44:06.:44:16.

propaganda, or a fear start to the Eichmann? What IMAX -- what I am

:44:17.:44:20.

experiencing now among the people who have received it, they see it as

:44:21.:44:26.

part of the campaign and not the dispassionately flipped. They are

:44:27.:44:30.

treating it as part of the remaining campaign. It is not being treated by

:44:31.:44:35.

voters out there as an independent, authoritative document. They are

:44:36.:44:40.

rightly sceptical about it. It seems to me that it is not strong in its

:44:41.:44:44.

language, it is not making wild claims. It says things like, the EU

:44:45.:44:51.

is by far the UK's biggest trading partner. EU countries by 44% of

:44:52.:44:57.

everything we sell abroad. We are one of their biggest trading

:44:58.:45:01.

partners. One of the points we do not hear from the campaign to remain

:45:02.:45:05.

is that we buy far more from the European Union than they buy from

:45:06.:45:09.

us. It is interesting to hear Emmanuel Macron about their possibly

:45:10.:45:13.

being consequences for Britain. This man certainly appears to want to be

:45:14.:45:17.

the next president of France. In 12 months' time he may be election

:45:18.:45:21.

needing to become the next president of France. French farmers depend on

:45:22.:45:27.

British consumers and supermarkets for their sales. Do you honestly

:45:28.:45:31.

think he will be saying to those farmers, who are pretty feisty

:45:32.:45:36.

bunch, I will put English -- in jeopardy the religion ship between

:45:37.:45:40.

France and your key market? It is not going to happen. If he does a

:45:41.:45:44.

generous deal with the UK after Brexit, other countries in the EU

:45:45.:45:50.

will say, we want what the British have have, and you will start to get

:45:51.:45:51.

an unravelling? It depends what you mean by

:45:52.:45:56.

generous. All we intend to do It depends what you mean by

:45:57.:46:03.

simply carry on trading. David Cameron sat on this set

:46:04.:46:06.

simply carry on trading. David of January and said of course we

:46:07.:46:07.

will buy far more from them than they do

:46:08.:46:14.

from us, and millions of jobs depend on British consumers to buy their

:46:15.:46:17.

products. The question is what of trading, and this leaflet makes

:46:18.:46:20.

the point that of trading, and this leaflet makes

:46:21.:46:28.

says are linked to exports from the EU and part of that is membership of

:46:29.:46:33.

the single market. I keep asking people on your side of the argument

:46:34.:46:37.

whether we would or would not be in the single market. I have no doubt

:46:38.:46:42.

we would carry on trading tariff free. That means a single market.

:46:43.:46:55.

There's examples of that. When we lost a van plant to Turkey, Turkey

:46:56.:47:06.

is not allowed free movement of the EU so it is a nonsense to suggest we

:47:07.:47:08.

cannot do a deal that will carry EU so it is a nonsense to suggest we

:47:09.:47:14.

allowing us to trade with the EU and carry on allowing

:47:15.:47:21.

allowing us to trade with the EU and products. Lord Lawson said

:47:22.:47:23.

allowing us to trade with the EU and leaving the EU there would be

:47:24.:47:24.

tariffs of up leaving the EU there would be

:47:25.:47:32.

a candidate in the general election leaving the EU there would be

:47:33.:47:42.

our products more expensive so makes no sense. We are talking about

:47:43.:47:47.

a political elite here, not makes no sense. We are talking about

:47:48.:47:52.

voters, people who are committed makes no sense. We are talking about

:47:53.:47:57.

the EU as a project and they think if we leave the EU project starts to

:47:58.:48:02.

go backwards and therefore they would punish us. The Germans and

:48:03.:48:06.

French and everybody who have said if you want access to the single

:48:07.:48:10.

market that is fine but you have got to stump up some money and I accept

:48:11.:48:15.

free movement of people. Their vision is one of the reasons we have

:48:16.:48:21.

to leave. They have set up a single currency, all commentators say there

:48:22.:48:23.

has to be more currency, all commentators say there

:48:24.:48:27.

euro zone if they are to survive. Emmanuel Macron himself

:48:28.:48:28.

euro zone if they are to survive. political union. What does that look

:48:29.:48:34.

in ten years, it is a big block of countries in

:48:35.:48:39.

in ten years, it is a big block of together, merging pension systems

:48:40.:48:43.

and security systems, then there's two bits on the outside, us and

:48:44.:48:48.

Denmark. Does anybody think our voice will carry any sway at all in

:48:49.:48:51.

that situation? voice will carry any sway at all in

:48:52.:48:55.

issue, we won't be part of what they do but if we stay in the European

:48:56.:48:59.

Union we will have no control over what happens in our country. The

:49:00.:49:04.

Prime Minister would say but hold on a second, I renegotiated a lot of

:49:05.:49:08.

this, we will not be part of the single currency or ever closer

:49:09.:49:14.

union. I have guarantees and I brought them back to this country.

:49:15.:49:17.

But nothing changes from the way the European Union makes its laws about

:49:18.:49:23.

what happens in this country. Of course the role of the European

:49:24.:49:29.

court of justice has told us how we have to classify an asylum seeker in

:49:30.:49:33.

this country. That will carry on, their decisions will be binding, so

:49:34.:49:37.

we are very much in a position where a huge swathes of our laws are being

:49:38.:49:42.

made in Brussels, will carry on being made in Brussels, so we will

:49:43.:49:48.

still see more of our power is going to Brussels. I don't know if you

:49:49.:49:55.

heard Emmanuel Macron there also talking about the agreement that

:49:56.:49:59.

keeps migrants trying to get through France into the UK in Calais and has

:50:00.:50:04.

produced the camp and jungle and so forth. He says again that will go.

:50:05.:50:09.

This is a great red herring. The French interior Minister has said

:50:10.:50:15.

very clearly that won't change. It is a bilateral agreement between

:50:16.:50:19.

Britain and France, it is nothing to do with the EU. One of the reasons

:50:20.:50:23.

we don't have lots of refugee camps around Heathrow Airport is that we

:50:24.:50:26.

say to carriers you need to check before someone gets on board that

:50:27.:50:30.

they have a right to come to Britain. We would simply do the same

:50:31.:50:37.

to the cross-channel chains. Lots of people would turn up in France and

:50:38.:50:41.

discover actually there wasn't a way to Britain and France would have a

:50:42.:50:45.

bigger refugee problem than it does now. The French interior minister

:50:46.:50:49.

recognised it won't happen and said that treaty will stay in place. The

:50:50.:50:53.

current president and future potential present don't agree with

:50:54.:50:57.

that, but you are saying we would have full free trade with the rest

:50:58.:51:02.

of the EU without having to pay up or accept free movement. For the

:51:03.:51:07.

rest of the EU, that seems like an extraordinary deal and if they give

:51:08.:51:11.

it to us why wouldn't everyone else wanted? And if they do the entire

:51:12.:51:16.

system falls to pieces, which may be a good thing, I don't know, but they

:51:17.:51:21.

are worried about that. We keep talking about our access to their

:51:22.:51:25.

market. There are millions of European jobs that depend on British

:51:26.:51:31.

consumers so it is about their access to all market. I want them to

:51:32.:51:36.

be able to continue to sell BMW cars, French cheeses tariff free in

:51:37.:51:41.

the UK because that is good for Europe and the relationship between

:51:42.:51:45.

us but it is not a one-way process. We are their biggest customers, we

:51:46.:51:50.

buy far more from them than they do from us and losing that business

:51:51.:51:55.

would be disastrous for producers across the European Union. I think

:51:56.:52:01.

you are speaking, seeing this as a logical free trade thing, whereas

:52:02.:52:05.

they are Europhile Brussels-based politicians with a political agenda

:52:06.:52:12.

of their own which makes it much less likely if we were to leave.

:52:13.:52:17.

They are politicians that need to be elected. Emmanuel Macron maybe the

:52:18.:52:24.

French political candidate next year. Does anybody think he will say

:52:25.:52:36.

to farmers that they cannot sell to us? The people on the other side of

:52:37.:52:42.

the argument from you include IMF, big business and surely President

:52:43.:52:46.

Obama coming over here. Do you agree with Boris Johnson that he is a

:52:47.:52:51.

hypocrite? I don't think President Obama will tolerate a situation

:52:52.:52:55.

where the United States gave away as much of its sovereignty as we have

:52:56.:53:00.

to Brussels. It is inconceivable. So this is naked hypocrisy. In my view

:53:01.:53:06.

he perhaps doesn't understand the nature of the transfer of power that

:53:07.:53:11.

has taken place but if Americans truly knew how much of our national

:53:12.:53:14.

sovereignty resided in Brussels they would never argue we should stay. It

:53:15.:53:20.

is basically ignorance on his part, not hypocrisy? I can only think he

:53:21.:53:26.

doesn't realise. The IMF has a wonderful track record of

:53:27.:53:29.

forecasting the British economy. Two years ago their chief economist

:53:30.:53:34.

accused George Osborne of playing with fire with his economic strategy

:53:35.:53:37.

and 12 months later they had to apologise because they got it so

:53:38.:53:42.

wrong. You have no big international organisations on your side, do you?

:53:43.:53:47.

You have got to follow the money. What is happening right now, in the

:53:48.:53:51.

middle of this debate the German stock exchange has chosen to spend

:53:52.:53:56.

billions of euros to buying into the London stock exchange. Avon is

:53:57.:53:59.

choosing to locate its headquarters in Britain. Where decisions are

:54:00.:54:05.

being taken, they are not in line with what people are saying in the

:54:06.:54:10.

debate, they are coming to Britain. With David Davis I was talking about

:54:11.:54:17.

if we voted to leave what would happen to the Prime Minister. You

:54:18.:54:29.

are the people saying it should be done,... I want David Cameron to

:54:30.:54:34.

stay, not only because he is a good Prime Minister but because he has

:54:35.:54:36.

the relationships we need around Europe to build a negotiating

:54:37.:54:40.

process. It would be disastrous in my view if we vote to leave and then

:54:41.:54:46.

get distracted by a leadership contest. And do you want him to

:54:47.:54:53.

renegotiate? I want him to be part of a team. Thank you for joining us

:54:54.:54:57.

today. Now over to Christian

:54:58.:54:59.

for the news headlines. At least 77 people have been killed

:55:00.:55:01.

following a powerful earthquake off The epicentre was 27 kilometres

:55:02.:55:04.

from the coastal town of Muisne, A state of emergency has been

:55:05.:55:08.

declared across much The French Economy Minister has

:55:09.:55:11.

confirmed that his Government is committed to the construction

:55:12.:55:15.

of a new nuclear power station The ?18 billion cost of the project

:55:16.:55:17.

had meant that some doubt But Emmanuel Macron told this

:55:18.:55:21.

programme that EDF Energy, which is controlled by the French

:55:22.:55:25.

state, has full political backing The political con movement is

:55:26.:55:43.

completely confirmed. It is very important for France, it is very

:55:44.:55:49.

important for EDF. The next news on BBC One

:55:50.:55:51.

is at one o'clock. First, let's have a look at what's

:55:52.:55:54.

coming up immediately At ten we will be asking if public

:55:55.:56:05.

figures including MPs have a right to privacy. Will the Catholic Church

:56:06.:56:09.

only change when women get more power? And finally, does God care

:56:10.:56:12.

what you wear? On the Sunday Politics in an hour,

:56:13.:56:14.

Andrew Neil talks to Next week, for one week only,

:56:15.:56:20.

we'll be on BBC Two, because of coverage

:56:21.:56:24.

of the London Marathon. Do join me - BBC Two, nine o'clock -

:56:25.:56:26.

when I'm delighted to say I'll be talking to that legend of song

:56:27.:56:30.

writing Paul Simon, and the actor For now, we leave you with

:56:31.:56:33.

the cellist Guy Johnston. It's just been announced that Guy

:56:34.:56:36.

will be performing two Prom concerts He's here for us now with some Bach

:56:37.:56:40.

- the bourree

:56:41.:56:55.

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