24/04/2016 The Andrew Marr Show


24/04/2016

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President Obama's message to Britain -

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is it friendly, wise advice, or an offensive, bullying threat?

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Either way, can we simply, perhaps, ignore the US president?

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In her first major interview since siding with David Cameron

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and Remain, I'm joined this morning by the Home Secretary

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Theresa May - how enthusiastic is she about another 3 million

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Also, with England's local elections now not far away I'm joined

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by the leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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President Obama continues to dominate the papers today,

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and here to review them are the journalist, Toby Young,

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who definitely won't be heeding the President's advice

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when it comes to the EU referendum - and Gillian Tett, US managing editor

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And still on the theme of politics, we will hear from one of the true

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legends of modern music, for many people the greatest

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songwriter music, # If you don't have a wristband, my

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man, you don't get through the door! Now at this point, I usually

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hand over to the news. But this morning, we're

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going to focus on one story. President Obama last week told

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the UK it would have to 'go to the back of the queue' in any

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future trade negotiations with the US, if we vote

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to leave the EU. Now he's said it would take

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at least five to ten years, President Obama made those remarks

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in an interview with Huw Edwards. Mr President, thank you very

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much for talking to us. I think it is fair to say

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that your visit, even more than usual, has

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created quite a stir! People are saying, OK,

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we have a special relationship,

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and yet that special relationship could involve going to

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the back of the queue! Well, actually, the special

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relationship is not There are emotional and cultural

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and commercial and strategic bonds between our two countries that are

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unmatched by any other two countries As a practical matter,

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what we are doing with respect to trade is negotiating

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with big blocks of countries. Because negotiating trade deals

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are a heavy lift, they are challenging

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and they are difficult. It is the phrase, the back

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of the queue, which has, I suppose offended some

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people and alarmed others or scared them,

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was As I said, it was simply

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a response to the argument I have heard from others,

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who are proposing to leave the EU, that somehow America

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would be able to do things more quickly

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with the UK than if they were

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in the European Union. I was simply indicating

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that would not be the case in this narrow issue of trade.

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The UK would not be able to negotiate something

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with the United States faster than the EU.

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We wouldn't abandon our efforts to negotiate a trade deal

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with our largest trading partner, the European market.

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But rather, it could be five years from now, ten

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years from now, before we are able to actually get something done.

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So maybe not right at the back of the

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queue, maybe towards the back of the queue, is that right?

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I think the broader point is that if you are

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interested in trade, we are on the cusp of getting

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a trade deal done with the European Union.

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If I am a business person, or a worker in

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Britain, and I am looking at the fact that I already have access,

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seamlessly, with a massive market, one of the wealthiest markets

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in the world that accounts for 44% of my exports,

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then the idea that I'm going to be in a better

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position to export and trade by

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being outside of that market, and not being

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in the room setting the

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rules and standards by which trade takes place, I think is erroneous.

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You have been very clear, the special relationship, you've just

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Trade is important, it it much more than that.

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We have been focusing on lots of things

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sharing given the very real threat from terrorist groups around the

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Is it possible to say today that if there were an exit from the

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EU, those elements of the special relationship would not be affected?

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It wouldn't be affected in the sense that our intelligence teams work

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extremely closely together and our militaries work

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Our ability to do things together will not be changed.

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What we do believe is that the United Kingdom

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will have less influence in Europe, and as a consequence, less influence

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In a sense, we rely heavily on the UK as a partner

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There will be some people watching who put

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a much higher price on the

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bond with the US than the bond with the EU.

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They will say, the President is fairly clear, the special

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relationship is not going to be damaged

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by any decision on coming in

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or out of the EU, and if that is the case,

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we shouldn't be concerned about coming out.

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That is how they will probably relay the argument, what

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I guess if the countries that are closest to

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you, that care about you the most, the countries with whom you

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co-operate most frequently, those who you have a special relationship

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with, suggesting to you that you might be better off staying in this

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with Europe, it is worth paying attention.

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This sharp focus again on some of the dangerous flash points

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around the world, there are plenty of voices in Europe who say that

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part of the reason that Europe has been dealing with such a big

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migration crisis is the lack of assertive

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response, if you like, or the

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lack of assertive engagement, not least from the US.

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You can't say, we don't want to do anything in Syria,

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our parliaments won't ratify any actions

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Syria but we do want the

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United States to do something about it!

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One of the challenges of my presidency

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I think, isto encourage everybody to recognise that whether we like it

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or not, we are in an interconnected world.

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This relates to Brexit, to Nato, to the migration crisis,

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counterterrorism efforts, public health issues like Ebola,

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it's a problem in the US because

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people have debates about immigration from places like Mexico.

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It would be tempting for many people to believe

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that we can pull up the

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drawbridge, that we can carve a moat around

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ourselves and not have to

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You've been to Windsor, driven around by the Duke of Edinburgh,

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And clearly enjoying it, the First Lady at your side.

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Give us a sense of what the First Lady has

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I cannot separate anything that I have

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achieved from the partnership that I have had with

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First and foremost, she is the best mother I know.

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My daughters are amazing because of her parenting.

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So I can take very little credit beyond

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executing some of the plans that she has!

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She's also proven to be an

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extraordinary public figure in her own right.

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In a very difficult job, because the First Lady doesn't have

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a clearly defined role, so what she has been able to do

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in changing first the conversation in the United

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States and then globally to some degree around children's health

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issues and child obesity, and now what she is doing with the emphasis

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on girls' education, and making sure that our

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policies are aligned with

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the basic wisdom that countries that do not educate their girls and treat

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I could not be prouder of her, and I think it

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is fair to say that anything good that I have done, she gets shared

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Mr President, a great honour to talk to you.

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And enjoy the

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President Obama telling us we ought to pay attention to them! Will be?

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The papers give some indication. Arafat acid story in the Sunday

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Telegraph, saying, look who's in the driving seat! Observer moves on to

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the possible next president, Hillary Clinton, agrees with President

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Obama, the Sunday Times is weighted by the rich list today although they

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have a picture of the president, and the Labour Party living in stop

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doctors strike. Something we could well talk about talk about later on.

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The headline in the Mail on Sunday, Boris Johnson raging at President

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Obama. The language of Boris Johnson, the colourful, is not quite

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as colourful as it appears in that headline.

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And with me to review the papers are Toby Young and Gillian Tett.

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Toby, in the Mail on Sunday you are making the case against what

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President Obama has said. I had not had an interview before I wrote the

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piece. From the Leave proud of it was encouraging to the president say

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that our security relationship with the United States would not be

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affected in the slightest if we left the EU. It was something that was

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said by Sir Richard Dearlove, and he was ridiculed by the Remain camp

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last month. Disappointing to hear him repeat what I think of as the

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scaremongering trade argument. I think is exaggerating those

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difficulties. It has taken more than 40 years the United States to

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conclude a trade agreement with the European Union and it still has not

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done so. In the meantime it has concluded agreements with countries

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like Jordan, El Salvador, the nation, they only have one set of

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negotiators who would be entirely tied up with TTIP before they could

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get to Britain, I think that is wrong. The other point I make in my

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piece is that we currently have a great deal of trade, over ?35

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billion worth of trade going in both directions between us and the US. So

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I'm not sure it would be that catastrophic even if it did take

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five to ten years to conclude in the deal. Your piece appears on the same

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page as the picture of the president playing golf, do you get the sense

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that this is a mess of establishments to job against people

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like you? -- a massive establishment stitch up? It does look like that

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and I am not sure how that will play with the Don't Nos. It is

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reminiscent of the pictures of Tony Blair at camp David with George W

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Bush, something that did not do Mr Blair any favours. One point made

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today is that only 15% of voters say they will take the views of the

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president into account and the majority of them are for the Remain

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camp already. I'm not sure how much difference that will make. Gillian,

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you will take this forward. Muggy I would like to comment, when the

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president says the trade deals could take between five and ten years, he

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is not being punitive, the reality is that Congress takes a long time

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to do anything. Trade deals take a long time. And people are picking up

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on this, the Americans are picking up on this, it's the sheer

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uncertainty, you got big banks and big companies saying they are

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building up operations in places like Dublin and Amsterdam to prepare

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for that uncertainty. So that is the issue. That very much feeds into

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what Hillary Clinton says which is that the Americans want a strong

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British voice in the EU. That is a widespread view and the Democrat

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side although Ted Cruz and Donald Trump take a different feel so in a

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strange way American politics and British politics are becoming

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strangely untangled. Yes and no. If you talk to other parts of the

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Republican Party now they believe Britain would be mad to leave

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because they don't understand why anyone would give up the influence

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issue. Ted Cruz and Donald Trump have not spent much time talking

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about Brexit. They have plenty of other things on their radar now. It

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is a fair bet that they would be so enthusiastic but then Trump is

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speaking enthusiastically about Putin now. Is it not a bit unfair to

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say that only uncertainty would be with the Leave said if we voted to

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leave because they would also be uncertainty of we voted to stay, the

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TTIP hasn't been concluded yet and could take five or ten years, and

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with the looming crisis there is uncertainty on both sides. Di issue

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isn't so much about widgets and goods, its trade and services. That

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is where Britain is most at risk. The question is about financial

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services and what that would mean for the City of London. If you had a

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bunch of us in a country which is in the EU you can still take advantage

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of whatever trading arrangements are in place even if your headquarters

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are in London. Those big banks can mostly not live with that

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uncertainty. They are terrified of being caught in this political

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fight, they are looking at building up their operations in Dublin,

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Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt. Some people might say, good riddance to

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needs those banks anyway. I think you have the story about

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Boris Johnson getting flack for his comments. Yes, he has. I don't think

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it is fair to accuse Boris of being racist by invoking Obama's part

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Kenyan ancestry. After all, Obama wrote a book which was a memoir,

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about a third of it is devoted to a trip he makes to Kenya which he

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retraces the steps of his father and grandfather and talks about his

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grandfather's involvement in the memorabilia on. He said his part

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Kenyan heritage has helped shape his political views. And that was a very

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brutal episode in Kenyan history, and you can see why Kenyans might be

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sceptical about imperial enthusiasm as a result. It was a blunder of

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Boris to bring this up because it enabled the Remain campaign to

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retaliate by accusing him and playing the race card and not focus

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on the issue of Obama's hypocrisy. He said in this international age

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when we depend on more cooperation, it is silly to think you can create

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a moat around your country. Why is he recommending we shouldn't take

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back control of our borders? Is this essentially you're a bit of a

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racist, what Philip Hammond is saying in the Telegraph? That seems

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to be decoded implication. One of the aspects of... I have got

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statistics. The difficulty of David Cameron invoking Obama, now Clinton,

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bringing in the HM Treasury analysis earlier in the week is that it seems

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he's not playing on a level playing field and create acrimony between

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the two side. If the Remain campaign win narrowly, a lot of people will

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say it is not fair, there will be ranker. Percentages and so forth, it

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is rare you get an economist with a big billing in the Sun. I always

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thought the Sun was about soccer and sex but it also has economics facts.

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We have a Google group saying living costs will fall by ?40 a week

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because things like cars and fridges and washing machines will become

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cheaper if there was Brexit. I find it fascinating the weight economics

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is being bandied around. Most people are probably now confused about the

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numbers but the Sun has discovered economics, great. Toby, you have a

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story about the junior doctors I think in the Sunday Times, and there

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are some idea that there is a compromise deal to be negotiated.

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The story is that Heidi Alexander, the Labour shadow health spokesman,

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has brokered a deal which could bring about peace between the junior

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doctors and Jeremy Hunt. What is odd about this is that earlier in the

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week John McDonnell, the Labour Shadow Chancellor, was saying

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actually he encourages people to come out onto the streets to

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protest, and he hopes we can bring down the Government before 2020

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through this kind of action. Very off piste on Heidi's part. The idea

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is they would go ahead with the contracts but on a piecemeal test

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pilot basis. Yes, they would implement the new contract in some

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places, see how it works, before rolling it out nationally. Not a

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stupid idea. You also have a piece by Sarah Baxter in the Sunday Times

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comments section. Yes, Sarah isn't wholly sympathetic to the cause of

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the junior doctors and she points out that once they complete their

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training they have lifelong job security and a GP's average salary

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is about ?100,000 with 10% of them earning more than the Prime

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Minister. We are going to go on to Donald Trump. The other big story.

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An extraordinary story, makes Boris Johnson look positively

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mealy-mouthed. This is a terrific piece looking at Donald Trump the

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showman, we almost here is a showman. A key issue about him is

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that as the ultimate showman, is he now going to change his spots and

:19:58.:20:06.

turn into Trump the moderate? He has hired somebody who is the ultimate

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spin doctor, and I suspect we will see Trump the rational. We are going

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to get grown-up Trump. He has no ideology, you will do whatever it

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takes to win. Moving on again. Toby, you've got an interesting piece

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about Sadiq Khan, the London candidate for mayor. Yes, it is

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interesting because it repeats many of the things that Zac has been

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saying about Sadiq, raising links with Islamic extremists, but Alan

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Sugar was enabled by Gordon Brown, turned into an enterprise

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ambassador, at one point talked about as a potential mayoral

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candidate so it is harder I think for Sadiq Khan's team to deflect

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these questions by playing the race card and claiming it is just

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partisan dirty politics. This is a stalwart of the Labour Party saying

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that he is concerned about Sadiq Khan's links with these various

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folks. Moving on again, and alcohol story. I find this fascinating

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because as someone who lives in New York, when I come back to London,

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I'm always struck by how much people drink, but Louis Theroux has done a

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fantastic piece pointing out that there is this epidemic in drinking

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in the UK. Nice middle-class people hoofing it back. Little -- people

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like me, drinking a lot! Very quickly, there is a lot of

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Shakespeare in the papers, including the extraordinary story of Prince

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Charles playing Hamlet on the TV, and that wonderful sequence of

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screens down the Thames, all of Shakespeare's plays reduced to ten

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minutes, crowds of people yesterday watching them. I was hoping Prince

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Charles would say the line, there is something rotten in the state of

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Denmark, but actually Obama's comments reminded me of a quote in

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King Lear, where two of the characters are trying to persuade

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him to give up delusions of grandeur. At one point he says, but

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sir, being weak seems so. That seems to be Obama's argument. Give up

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these delusions. This is such a classy paper review, we have come to

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the end of it but thank you both for that.

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Now to the weather, and it's been as dithery

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and confused as many European referendum voters, just

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In the weather studio is Matt Taylor.

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More of the same through this coming week. Out today more cloud than we

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saw yesterday but equally many will be dry with sunshine coming through

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now and again. Showers down eastern coastal counties, and some in the

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Midlands moving toward the south later on. Some will have a wet spell

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in the afternoon, but a lot of dry weather too. The best of the warmth

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on the south-west coast, 13 Celsius. Tonight eastern areas where the

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windfalls that bit lighter, skies are clear. This is where numerically

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the temperatures will drop the furthest thanks to cloud, occasional

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rain and a strengthening wind. But they even out first thing in the

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morning because the wind will make it cold. Across England and Wales

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you will be hard pressed to avoid the showers, lots of them around.

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The wind is stronger as well, strongest across the north-east of

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Scotland bringing in sleet and snow. As for the week ahead, Andrew, the

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weather stays that little bit dithery, stays chilly.

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Back to you. Very poor behaviour by the weather, you will have noticed.

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Their time in Government ended unhappily for the Lib Dems,

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with only eight of their MPs left standing after the general election.

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During the coalition years, their base in local government

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Will the party renowned for its pavement politics start

:24:48.:24:50.

winning back council seats in next month's local elections in England?

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The Lib Dem leader, Tim Farron, joins me now.

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The great thing to be a party leader but this party leader in these

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circumstances not so much. I don't whether it is a hospital pass or a

:25:07.:25:12.

poisoned chalice, but it has been pretty rough for you, hasn't it?

:25:13.:25:16.

That is a tremendous euphemism for this time in the morning. It is

:25:17.:25:21.

joyful, the result we have Moss May was of course devastating but I

:25:22.:25:25.

cannot change that. What I can effect is how we go forward. Since

:25:26.:25:31.

last May we have had a remarkable upsurge in the membership, a 50%

:25:32.:25:35.

increase, and people like you and I keep an eye on these things.

:25:36.:25:42.

Staggeringly, against everybody's expectations, the party has gained

:25:43.:25:46.

more seats and votes than anybody else. There's a real sense of us

:25:47.:25:52.

coming back. It is not a 12 month job, we have a big job ahead of us

:25:53.:25:56.

but the state of politics requires the Liberal Democrats to recover so

:25:57.:26:01.

we better hard. Your former party leader did what he thought was the

:26:02.:26:04.

right thing for the country, going into coalition with the

:26:05.:26:08.

Conservatives and doing his best. As a result, they stabbed your party in

:26:09.:26:13.

the back, and nearly finished you off. Will you ever go into any kind

:26:14.:26:17.

of relationship with the Conservative Party again? I didn't

:26:18.:26:21.

join the Liberal Democrats is a smart career move, but neither did I

:26:22.:26:26.

do copout and avoid power. If you want to change the world you have

:26:27.:26:31.

got to get involved with power. He wouldn't go back for more with these

:26:32.:26:39.

people, would you? I think collectively as a country we have

:26:40.:26:42.

all learned over the last 12 months. We have seen the attack on schools,

:26:43.:26:46.

on junior doctors, the dismantling of the green energy programme the

:26:47.:26:50.

Liberal Democrats brought in and it's a reminder to everybody of what

:26:51.:26:55.

the Liberal Democrats were doing. Some people look at your party

:26:56.:26:58.

conference last time and see your opposition to fracking, and they say

:26:59.:27:04.

is this the Liberal Democrats going back to the open toed sandals of the

:27:05.:27:09.

1970s? These issues are important but may seem marginal compared to

:27:10.:27:16.

the problems facing the country. Our fundamental approach is how we

:27:17.:27:21.

rebuild from the grass roots up. We have these elections on May the 5th

:27:22.:27:25.

and our job is to build back up from the grass roots, to give people the

:27:26.:27:29.

opportunity to vote for somebody with a credible plan for their area

:27:30.:27:33.

but it also means tackling the big issues. We have got to confess that

:27:34.:27:38.

one of the reasons why a pretty dreadful Conservative government is

:27:39.:27:40.

getting away with things at the moment...

:27:41.:27:47.

Your words, not mine. But they have the most shambolic opposition in

:27:48.:27:51.

living memory. I have nothing against Jeremy Corbyn, but Labour

:27:52.:27:55.

are the worst opposition in history. We have got to provide people with a

:27:56.:27:59.

real alternative. Give me an example of a policy where you think you can

:28:00.:28:05.

defeat the Government. There is a vote tomorrow, I will give you a

:28:06.:28:10.

hint. You didn't need to give me a hint, my focus is on trying to

:28:11.:28:13.

defeat the Government tomorrow on the proposal. This is about Britain

:28:14.:28:19.

taking more child refugees who are already inside the EU. Unaccompanied

:28:20.:28:26.

minors within Europe, refugees. We reckon there are about 30,000 in

:28:27.:28:31.

Europe. Devastatingly we also reckon 10,000 of them have gone missing and

:28:32.:28:36.

they will be in the hands of traffickers, sexually exploited.

:28:37.:28:44.

What Save The Children are proposing is that Britain takes our fair

:28:45.:28:50.

share, 3000 of them unaccompanied children. My challenge to Theresa

:28:51.:28:55.

May, who you will be speaking to in a few minutes, is that on Monday you

:28:56.:29:00.

have the opportunity to help those children and prevent that

:29:01.:29:04.

trafficking from taking place. You have some Conservative MPs on your

:29:05.:29:08.

side. Others will say this will just encourage people in Syria and

:29:09.:29:12.

elsewhere to send their children into the EU in the sure knowledge

:29:13.:29:19.

they will eventually be helped. We know there are something like 5

:29:20.:29:22.

million refugees fleeing from the region and a faction, maybe a

:29:23.:29:27.

quarter, are in Europe. The idea Europe is the only place people are

:29:28.:29:32.

heading is not true. I have been to the camps, I've seen families

:29:33.:29:38.

devastated, people who have fled war and persecution, and they took an

:29:39.:29:42.

enormous risky decision to cross the water to come to Europe because what

:29:43.:29:47.

they left behind was risky. This is tomorrow's vote, can you win it? Of

:29:48.:29:54.

course we can. My question to every Conservative MP is if you were in

:29:55.:29:58.

the situation of these Syrian refugees, if your children were like

:29:59.:30:01.

these unaccompanied children in Europe now, would you want other

:30:02.:30:06.

countries to do this for you? You have these local elections coming

:30:07.:30:12.

up, what does recovery look like for the Liberal Democrats? Good

:30:13.:30:17.

question, every election starts as a level playing field and I would love

:30:18.:30:21.

us to be starting 50 seats higher than we are but we are not. Our way

:30:22.:30:26.

back to serious central part in British politics is to win in these

:30:27.:30:31.

elections coming up now. The most elected councillors this time

:30:32.:30:37.

round... I want to make progress on the ground and earn people's votes

:30:38.:30:41.

because most people expect politicians to let them down. I want

:30:42.:30:47.

to challenge politicians to prove to the electorate there was a

:30:48.:30:50.

difference to the Liberal Democrats. We can bring decency serve people

:30:51.:30:57.

and do it better than ever before. Mostly I have to talk to you down

:30:58.:31:01.

the line, it has been lovely to have you in the studio. Thank you very

:31:02.:31:02.

much indeed. For more than half a century,

:31:03.:31:05.

Paul Simon's music provided a soundtrack for modern America

:31:06.:31:08.

that the rest of If he'd stopped writing

:31:09.:31:10.

in the '70s, his place as a legend would

:31:11.:31:13.

still have been assured. But he's gone on to produce

:31:14.:31:15.

ever more inventive, His latest, "Stranger To Stranger"

:31:16.:31:17.

is Simon at his best - When we met, we started

:31:18.:31:21.

by talking about the early days living in London,

:31:22.:31:28.

where he wrote some # And walked off to look for

:31:29.:31:29.

America...#. Can I ask you about London

:31:30.:31:48.

when you first came here, part of the folk scene - how

:31:49.:31:54.

different is the city these days? Well, of course it's

:31:55.:31:58.

enormously different I mean, one of their

:31:59.:32:00.

early questions was, "Have you heard of this band,

:32:01.:32:10.

the Beatles?" And they showed me

:32:11.:32:12.

a picture and it was like, All the cars seemed so small

:32:13.:32:15.

that I thought, this is perfect, you can walk across

:32:16.:32:35.

the street and And as far as the folk

:32:36.:32:37.

scene went, big, big musical effect on popular

:32:38.:32:50.

music thinking. You've been a commentator

:32:51.:32:52.

on American life and American society

:32:53.:32:54.

for a very long time. some songs which seem to be quite

:32:55.:32:58.

critical of divisions in American # I stepped outside the backstage

:32:59.:33:05.

door to breathe some nicotine. # Then I heard a click,

:33:06.:33:22.

the stage door lock # I'm gonna have to walk around the

:33:23.:33:27.

block As I began to write

:33:28.:33:31.

the song, I started out as if I were writing an anecdote about

:33:32.:33:43.

a musician who steps backstage, steps outside into the alley

:33:44.:33:47.

to have a cigarette, the door locks, and now he's trying to get back

:33:48.:33:50.

in and it's The only way he can

:33:51.:33:52.

get back in, he's got to walk around the block

:33:53.:34:01.

and walk into the front, who is standing there checking

:34:02.:34:04.

everything, and the guy says, # Kids that can't afford the cool

:34:05.:34:07.

brand # Whose anger is a shorthand

:34:08.:34:20.

# For you'll never get a wristband # And if you don't have a wristband,

:34:21.:34:24.

my man, So then wristband

:34:25.:34:27.

becomes a metaphor for people who are permanently

:34:28.:34:40.

ineligible to enter into, you know, pleasure or success, whatever

:34:41.:34:45.

you want to call the club... I was going to ask you about

:34:46.:34:48.

another really wonderful song on the album, the opening song,

:34:49.:34:51.

Werewolf, which is a scary song. I wondered if it was

:34:52.:34:57.

an angrier, sourer coda to American Tune for the new

:34:58.:34:59.

century. There is a kind of sorrow

:35:00.:35:03.

in American Tune and there is a kind of half humour in

:35:04.:35:10.

The Werewolf, you know. You use a lot of humour when it

:35:11.:35:14.

comes to politics, another great It is the funniest political

:35:15.:35:17.

song I know, it is absolutely brilliant, very,

:35:18.:35:22.

very funny. Ten years on from 9/11,

:35:23.:35:23.

you sang Sound Of Silence Somebody had wanted you to sing

:35:24.:35:31.

Bridge Over Troubled Water but Just tell us why that was that what

:35:32.:35:43.

you chose? Some instinct said, this song

:35:44.:35:50.

is more about the mood of what I Bridge Over Troubled Water

:35:51.:35:53.

has been used often as a song of comfort

:35:54.:36:00.

in times of national tragedies but there

:36:01.:36:12.

was something about The Sound Of Silence

:36:13.:36:17.

that has changed over the years. # People talking without speaking

:36:18.:36:23.

# People hearing without listening. # People writing songs

:36:24.:36:31.

that voices never share # No one dares

:36:32.:36:38.

# Disturb the sound of silence...# Something has changed and I sing it

:36:39.:36:43.

very differently from the

:36:44.:36:45.

way it was recorded. I sing it in a much slower way,

:36:46.:36:53.

and I've changed the melody a So that's really why

:36:54.:36:56.

I chose that song. Some people who have been watching

:36:57.:36:59.

this interview will now be

:37:00.:37:01.

feeling quite frustrated, fantastic, when will

:37:02.:37:04.

I get the chance to hear When am I going to be

:37:05.:37:07.

able to buy tickets and stand and listen

:37:08.:37:11.

to Well, I hope that

:37:12.:37:12.

people think that way. Unfortunately, I won't be playing

:37:13.:37:15.

here until the autumn. Yes, I will come back,

:37:16.:37:19.

I will be here, Inshallah, big treat, thank you very much for

:37:20.:37:26.

talking to us. We've heard a lot recently

:37:27.:37:31.

about the impact of staying in or leaving the EU

:37:32.:37:38.

on jobs and trade. Issues like immigration and security

:37:39.:37:42.

are at the heart of the debate too, which makes the Home Secretary,

:37:43.:37:45.

Theresa May, She is on the Remain side,

:37:46.:37:47.

and she's with me now. Good morning, Andrew. If we stay in

:37:48.:38:03.

the EU, will immigration go up or down? Nine no one who has heard me

:38:04.:38:07.

in the last few years will have any doubt that I think that we need to

:38:08.:38:12.

control immigration. It is high and it is hard, whether inside or

:38:13.:38:17.

outside the EU, it is hard dealing with migration from inside the EU

:38:18.:38:24.

outside. If we are still inside immigration will continue to rise

:38:25.:38:29.

sharply, won't it? The thing about immigration is that it is affected

:38:30.:38:33.

by many different features. That is why the gum and can never say, we

:38:34.:38:37.

will change when rule and the result will be what we want. We have

:38:38.:38:41.

constantly to work on it which is what we are doing. You cannot change

:38:42.:38:45.

one feature and hope that will have an impact. Free movement does make

:38:46.:38:49.

it harder to control immigration but doesn't make it impossible. We will

:38:50.:38:55.

come to that. Your own government figures suggest 2 million more

:38:56.:38:58.

people in this country as migrants from the EU by 2030. That's a vast

:38:59.:39:03.

number of people which will very a lot of potential voters one way or

:39:04.:39:07.

the other. I understand why people are concerned about it. Is at a

:39:08.:39:17.

reasonable figure? It was an independent figure. I understand why

:39:18.:39:19.

people are concerned about immigration because it has an effect

:39:20.:39:22.

on public services, and jobs and that is what it is important for us

:39:23.:39:27.

to control immigration. But as I say, that is hard. We must keep

:39:28.:39:31.

working at it and that is what we are doing. If you look at membership

:39:32.:39:35.

of the European Union if we were to be outside the European Union, and

:39:36.:39:41.

have some of the arrangements... Setting our border controls? If you

:39:42.:39:47.

let me finish, if we want to be outside the European Union and still

:39:48.:39:50.

want access to the single market, where that is done for other

:39:51.:39:54.

countries they have to accept the free movement rules about any say

:39:55.:39:59.

over those rules. That is a different point. Am not sure it is.

:40:00.:40:05.

3 million more people coming into this country is something that

:40:06.:40:09.

worries people, something you have set out as secretary, you have

:40:10.:40:12.

dropped about the dangers of public services creaking and low-paid

:40:13.:40:17.

people being underpaid or losing their jobs as a result of this and

:40:18.:40:21.

yet under you watch it has carried on and there's no reason to think it

:40:22.:40:27.

will stop in future. If we vote to stay in will vote for hundreds of

:40:28.:40:31.

thousands more migrants coming in the year after year, that's the

:40:32.:40:38.

reality. Look at the facts, the last six years, immigration did begin to

:40:39.:40:40.

fall for a number of years, now it has gone back up, not just from

:40:41.:40:47.

inside the EU but from outside as well. That's why I is a controlling

:40:48.:40:51.

immigration is hard. Not easy because it is affected by a variety

:40:52.:40:56.

of factors. So while it is the government bringing in another

:40:57.:41:00.

immigration act? Because there are things we need now to do to bring

:41:01.:41:04.

greater control into the immigration system. I recognise why people are

:41:05.:41:10.

worried about it. Outside the EU and having access to the single market,

:41:11.:41:14.

countries that have that arrangement at the moment must accept free

:41:15.:41:18.

movement. If you are inside the EU you can change things. People from

:41:19.:41:25.

the At campaign say they would not go into that arrangement anyway so

:41:26.:41:28.

they would not be free movement. We've had hundreds of thousands of

:41:29.:41:32.

people coming here year after year and all your watch, is what you are

:41:33.:41:37.

saying is, stick with us, failed to stay in the EU and the immigration

:41:38.:41:42.

crisis will continue like before. I'm not saying that. I'm saying,

:41:43.:41:47.

stick with us, because we are the government accepted the need to be

:41:48.:41:51.

something about immigration. Other people who have changed the rules,

:41:52.:42:04.

dealt with abuse in the student visa system, there is no to-do, I think

:42:05.:42:07.

that you and I have had this conversation before, Andrew. If you

:42:08.:42:09.

are inside the European Union, you have the chance to change the rules.

:42:10.:42:12.

That is what we have done in the deal that David Cameron and

:42:13.:42:14.

negotiated. Crucially as part of that deal with God in agreement to

:42:15.:42:20.

reduce the factor of our wealth and benefits -- got an agreement... The

:42:21.:42:26.

national living wage has gone up to ?9 which statistics suggest would be

:42:27.:42:37.

a massive pull factor. Can come back to the national living wage? And

:42:38.:42:41.

first finish my point about the changes we have got over the rules

:42:42.:42:45.

on free movement? Crucially, I think this is a landmark decision, we have

:42:46.:42:49.

got agreement that we can overturn the European union, judgments of the

:42:50.:42:54.

European Court of Justice that make it easier for people to abuse free

:42:55.:43:02.

movement. The Shard marriage issue? I think it's important to -- The

:43:03.:43:07.

Shard marriage. I think it's important to say that we can

:43:08.:43:11.

overturn those decisions. Benchmark on that point will we now see a lot

:43:12.:43:15.

of challenges and the British government against the European

:43:16.:43:19.

Court of Justice and some chance of winning them? I'm saying we've got

:43:20.:43:23.

an important decision in the European Union which is about a

:43:24.:43:26.

willingness to say that those European Court of Justice decisions

:43:27.:43:30.

that were taken in these cases, I won't go into the details and the

:43:31.:43:36.

names, those cases meant that there was an increase in the abuse of free

:43:37.:43:42.

movement rules. I think, for the first time sitting around that

:43:43.:43:46.

European table, we've negotiated a deal that says we will overturn

:43:47.:43:50.

those judgments through the use of the new directive. It's a landmark

:43:51.:43:55.

decision, very important. It's had no effect on the numbers of people

:43:56.:43:59.

coming in which remains enormous. Michael Gove said, the latest

:44:00.:44:03.

announcement from the Treasury is an official admission that if we stay

:44:04.:44:07.

in the EU immigration will continue to increase by hundreds of

:44:08.:44:19.

thousands, year on year, more than 250,000 people came to Britain from

:44:20.:44:22.

Europe last year. As long as we are in the EU we cannot control our

:44:23.:44:24.

borders. All true, isn't it? Control of borders and immigration policy

:44:25.:44:27.

are different things. Instead the European Union are not part of the

:44:28.:44:30.

shin chin area. It's a broader freezer that people have -- Shenzen.

:44:31.:44:39.

We have control of our borders. Wouldn't have control of our

:44:40.:44:44.

borders! People living inside EU and live your when they want and they do

:44:45.:44:47.

so in huge numbers every year. Does not control borders. You are

:44:48.:44:54.

confusing immigration policy with control of borders, Andrew. Control

:44:55.:45:00.

of borders means we can stop people entering the UK, which we can. Yet

:45:01.:45:05.

crucially we can only do that if we've got the information that we

:45:06.:45:06.

need... We cannot stop citizens from other

:45:07.:45:19.

countries coming to the UK. We can, it is important we have checks at

:45:20.:45:23.

our borders, but what matters to be able to stop people who we don't

:45:24.:45:28.

want to see coming into the UK, criminals... You can stop a few

:45:29.:45:31.

criminals on the edges but you cannot stop the vast majority coming

:45:32.:45:35.

in and that is not control of our borders. This is very important

:45:36.:45:40.

because control of our borders, when you say we don't have control it

:45:41.:45:44.

suggests everybody can just walk into the UK. That's not the case, we

:45:45.:45:50.

check people at our borders but what matters at the border is that you

:45:51.:45:53.

have information about people that enables you to make that decision

:45:54.:45:57.

about whether somebody should enter the UK or not. We are more likely to

:45:58.:46:02.

have that information if we are inside the European Union, and have

:46:03.:46:12.

access to the various tools. Call-back to the basic point, the

:46:13.:46:17.

vast majority of people come in as of right and do as of right and you

:46:18.:46:21.

are saying there are some people who are criminals, and because of our

:46:22.:46:23.

relationships with other EU countries we know who they are.

:46:24.:46:27.

That's only the case if they have done something very bad and been

:46:28.:46:32.

flagged in advance. Mostly they will walk straight through. I don't know

:46:33.:46:37.

the last time you went through one of our airports and came back into

:46:38.:46:41.

the UK, you probably had your passport checked. You are obviously

:46:42.:46:49.

personal utmost integrity, but the point I'm making is I think a very

:46:50.:46:53.

simple one. I think it is important as people are coming up to this

:46:54.:46:57.

decision, that we are very clear about some of these arguments. There

:46:58.:47:02.

is an issue about free movement, about the free movement rules and

:47:03.:47:05.

what that allows people to do. We have negotiated changes which helped

:47:06.:47:11.

us in terms of dealing with abusive free -- abuse of free movement. A

:47:12.:47:20.

separate issue about whether or not we can check people coming into the

:47:21.:47:24.

country and I'm saying we shouldn't conflate those issues. We have

:47:25.:47:31.

stopped I think about 6000 people since 2010 from the EU coming into

:47:32.:47:36.

this country, less than 1%. If we were outside the EU there would be a

:47:37.:47:40.

visa system so we would know more about who was coming in. Firstly we

:47:41.:47:45.

don't know what the system would be if we were outside the EU, that

:47:46.:47:53.

would be one of the uncertainties. But you say that actually we have

:47:54.:47:57.

stopped people coming from the European Union at the border. One of

:47:58.:48:01.

the other things we have negotiated in the deal is making it easier to

:48:02.:48:06.

stop people. It's about the definition of criminality. We have

:48:07.:48:10.

made it easier, we will be able to stop and deport more people as a

:48:11.:48:15.

result of the deal David Cameron negotiated. And when it comes to the

:48:16.:48:20.

couple in Wolverhampton who were bludgeoned by people coming in, and

:48:21.:48:30.

many other cases, you have no control and people who are flagged

:48:31.:48:34.

have to have been doing something appalling before they came in. We

:48:35.:48:39.

cannot stop people from coming in if they have been child molesters,

:48:40.:48:42.

child killers. The system simply isn't working. There's no doubt we

:48:43.:48:48.

need to do more in exchanging criminal records but I also have no

:48:49.:48:52.

doubt we won't be better exchanging them through the system is available

:48:53.:48:58.

if we are outside the EU. That is being inside the EU that gives us

:48:59.:49:06.

access. This is about ensuring that the border we have the alerts, we

:49:07.:49:11.

can exchange criminal records. These are important tools that are shared

:49:12.:49:20.

within the European Union. Because we have free movement. They are

:49:21.:49:27.

tools that allow us to stop people regardless of where they are coming

:49:28.:49:30.

from. We have a number of systems that we are members of that help us

:49:31.:49:37.

to do that. It is easier to exchange that information and have access to

:49:38.:49:42.

it inside the European Union than it would be outside. 3 million people

:49:43.:49:49.

coming in by 2030, good thing or bad thing? That was an independent

:49:50.:49:55.

estimate. I think we need to control immigration, it is too high. It is

:49:56.:50:02.

an official figure and they say another 3 million people, no reason

:50:03.:50:07.

to think they are wrong. This is happening on your watch and looking

:50:08.:50:11.

ahead it will carry on as it has in the past. I'm asking is it good or

:50:12.:50:17.

bad? I think immigration is too high and we need to control it. As I said

:50:18.:50:24.

earlier and I return to this, controlling immigration is hard, it

:50:25.:50:26.

is something you constantly have to be dealing with, constantly have to

:50:27.:50:32.

be looking to see what new measures we have to take, constantly looking

:50:33.:50:36.

at changing the rules. We've changed some of the rules on free movement

:50:37.:50:42.

as a result of the negotiated deal. People watching this programme

:50:43.:50:45.

wondering how to vote will conclude from this that if they want

:50:46.:50:49.

immigration to come down dramatically and in real terms we

:50:50.:50:53.

should be outside the EU, they look forward to a situation where our

:50:54.:50:58.

national living wage will be ?9 per hour, and the equivalent figure in

:50:59.:51:03.

Bulgaria is less than 90p per hour. People will be drawn to this country

:51:04.:51:08.

in large numbers so long as we remain in the EU. Funny answer the

:51:09.:51:14.

national living wage point because you raised it earlier and I said I

:51:15.:51:18.

would come back to it and wasn't able to. Obviously the national

:51:19.:51:23.

living wage is going up, and people look when they are living -- looking

:51:24.:51:32.

to move out what they will be able to earn. Migrants are taking jobs in

:51:33.:51:37.

the UK that others are not taking. One result could be that residents

:51:38.:51:43.

in the UK will take these jobs. When we look at the vote on the 23rd of

:51:44.:51:46.

June, it is

:51:47.0:44:51

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