01/05/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

After a chaotic week for the Labour leadership over

accusations of anti-Semitism, and with elections across the UK

days away, are we now seeing the beginning

of the long-talked-about coup to topple Jeremy Corbyn?

As we try to thrash through truth and falsehood about left-wing

anti-Semitism, I'm joined by the new Israeli Ambassador Mark Regev

in his first TV interview, and by one

of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies and supporters

from the Shadow Cabinet, Diane Abbott.

As voters across the UK prepare for elections I'm talking

to three party leaders - Leanne Wood of Plaid Cymru,

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, and with his eye mostly

concentrated on the EU referendum, of course, Ukip's Nigel Farage.

So, you may be thinking, what about the Blues?

Don't worry, we have the actor and comic Lenny Henry,

who is using his magnificent voice to carve a new career

# I'm in love with you baby and I do want nobody else

You're so fine # Yeah, you're so fine #.

And reviewing the papers, a journalist who's become one

of the most popular voices on the left of politics, Owen Jones.

The Sun's Star columnist Jane Moore and the waspish political

observer from the Daily Mail, Andrew Pierce.

But first, the news, with Steph McGovern.

The Labour candidate for Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan,

says his chances of being elected on Thursday have been damaged

by the anti-Semitism row which has engulfed the party.

Mr Khan criticised the leadership for not acting quickly enough

to deal with the controversy, as Labour prepares for its biggest

electoral test since Jeremy Corbyn took charge last September.

Leicester City could be crowned football's most unlikely

Premier League champions later today - if they can triumph over

At the start of the season there were better odds on Leicester

being relegated than the club winning the title.

Now they're on the brink of making football history.

Sir Philip Green, the former owner of BHS, has been invited to give

evidence to two parliamentary committees after the chain went

The entrepreneur was in charge of the company for 15 years before

The Work and Pensions and Business committees will be looking at how

money was taken out of BHS, leaving a huge deficit

Lots of politics on the front pages of the newspapers. The same story

again and again, two big stories. Anti-Semitism row could heat our

poll hopes, that is after that Ken Livingstone row. And the Sunday

Times, the Israeli Ambassador, Mark Regev. Labour in denial, he says,

over anti-Semitism. The other big story in the Sunday Times, somebody

over anti-Semitism. The other big has been briefing about what will

happen to the BBC with the charter renewal. There is an idea that

popular programmes, programmes which have been doing too well should be

pushed off prime-time. The Sunday Telegraph splashes with that. If

they are too good, off they go. That is my advice! The Mail on Sunday,

BBC faces Charter ban on Saturday strictly. Lots of pictures of the

Duchess of Cambridge everywhere. That is not the Duchess of Cambridge

but Nicola Sturgeon with a cane charging through Scottish

classrooms. We will talk to her later. The Sunday papers, starting

with Owen and the Observer. Anti-Semitism hitting poll hopes.

Sadiq Khan is furious about this. He is someone with a very long track

record of taking on the cancer of anti-Semitism. Ken Livingstone's

implosion last week was one thing, but at the same time he is deeply

damaging somebody else. This is a critical point, this whole issue.

The cancer of anti-Semitism is very real. It needs to be confronted. The

Labour leadership were absolutely right to suspend Ken Livingstone

midway through his self-destructive tour of those studios. What they

have done now, and I think Mrs overdue, it should have been done

years ago, they have set up an inquiry on anti-Semitism. That will

look at the scale of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and wider

society. The reason I say I wish this could have happened before. If

you look at the comments from Naz Shah, that was 2014. The previous

leadership. The same with many of the other examples that have come

up. It goes back a long way. I would like this commission to be long

ranging, no holds barred. Last year there was 1000 anti-Semitic

incidents, only a minority of them led to charges. I think the

recommendations should be looking at how we take on that sort of

anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and as a whole. You have a huge

following on Facebook and Twitter. A lot of your followers are upset with

you saying this. Most aren't. I will say this to most those people angry

with me on this, they say there is this plot... What are they saying,

that you are a stooge? That is just my mother! That I am a sell-out and

the rest of it. When people say there is a big plot against jammy

Corbyn, of course there are lots of people who wish to undermine Jeremy

Corbyn. This was his fault. Yes, opponents will always use situations

like that to their own advantage, but the fault lies with Ken

Livingstone. And now I am glad Labour have this inquiry. It shows

they are taking it seriously. I would like that to be the beginning,

to lay the foundations. You have to remind people, Sadiq Khan, this

might damage his campaign, was one of those MPs who nominated and

recommended Jeremy Corbyn to be Labour leader, which was a terrible

mistake. I supported Jeremy Corbyn, Siddique Khan did not. He nominated

him. He nominated him and now he is the leader. We have had a

ferociously directed attack on Ken Livingstone and a very ferocious

defence of Ken Livingstone. Bizarrely, from Peter Hitchens at

the Mail on Sunday, who is basically saying, he calls him batty Ken. He

said they wouldn't their tackle racist Muslims. He said he was at a

public meeting with Ken Livingstone before all of this blew up. He said

he challenged him about the left's feebleness in the face of Muslim

Jew-phobia. He says he thinks this is being used by people to have a go

at the Labour Party in general. I wasn't saying that. The issue is

deeply... You are saying Ken Livingstone handed a ticking... I

was just talking about people criticising me for saying that. Yes,

he's saying I'd challenge people within the Labour Party to say,

would you denounce Jew-phobia abroad? If not I suspect you're just

using the issue to try and win back control of the Labour Party.

Interesting. Andrew, the front page of the Sunday Times with these

splash from the Israeli Ambassador. They have done a profile of Mark

Regev. This shows you how in it was of Ken Livingstone using the name of

Adolf Hitler. Mark Regev one of only three children who survived the

Holocaust. It puts into brutal perspective why anti-Semitism has to

be rooted out and what a terrible issue it has become. Siddique Khan,

I hope the voter has enough sense to realise these are not Sadiq Khan's

views. This is fuelling everything. Zach -- Zac Goldsmith writing in the

mail. His campaign is poisonous, disgraceful. As your colleague, who

voted Conservative all his life has said, this is the worst campaign,

the most repulsive political campaigning as seen in his life as a

political reporter. He would say presumably, I am raising legitimate

concerns of voters. I'm allowed to do this. What he's trying to do in

the whole campaign is link Siddique Khan with a Muslim with radical and

extremists. Project fear. One of the people they have come up with is a

Conservative supporter. Who David Cameron called a supporter of IS.

The reason he supports, he is a Conservative supporter is Siddique

Khan defended equal marriage. He got death threats from extremists for

doing so. I find this campaign of fear and attempted tap into

anti-Muslim prejudice. I'm on the left and taking on anti-Semitism

passionately. I would like more people to take on this campaign of

fear. The likes of Boris Johnson, using the Kenyan heritage of Barack

Obama. These are issues which are very serious indeed and have no

place in politics. If that is something Zac Goldsmith wants to

take on... Not the way he is doing. There is a bombing thing here...

Another controversial figure at the moment, Mr BHS himself all over the

Sunday Times. Sir Philip. The Sunday Times has done an extraordinary

story detailing how many months and years he has been writing about the

demise of BHS and the threat from Sir Philip Green, swear words,

describing getting rid of BHS' as a birthday present to himself.

Revealing how well the BHS pension fund was imploding. Sir Philip Green

with his third superyacht. He comes across as an unsavoury comment. He

will go to the Commons and it will be thrashed out by MPs. The select

committees have become a very important crucible... His wife will

come over from Monaco, presumably on a private jet, she had dividends

paid to her in Monaco from BHS. Because they don't have to pay tax

in Monaco. Now back to the BBC story. The charter renewal coming up

shortly. A bit of a funny one, this. Most of the papers have it, but on

the front of the Sunday Times. This is saying John Whittingdale, the

culture Secretary, is due to impose curbs on the corporation. Basically

saying if there is a very successful BBC show in prime time and it

clashes with an equally successful show on ITV prime-time, the BBC

should move their show, which I find rather bizarre, in what is a

competitive industry. Three o'clock the morning! It does say it won't be

enforced, he can't order it. It is almost like a guideline. A lot of

people watch these programmes not at that time anyway, they watched them

on their computers. Not everybody has a recording facility. It can be

annoying. What has got to do with government question mark there is a

parallel proposal, I think in the Sunday Telegraph, that the BBC

should have to go back to ministers halfway through the charter review

and see how we're doing. There is an attempt for tighter political

control of some kind. Which is deeply concerning. The BBC is one of

our proudest national institutions and it looks like the government is

undermining it, cutting funding... That sounds like a press release.

When it's gone... It is not going anywhere, they are not getting rid

of it. The other huge story of the week, we talk about Brexit every

week but we have another important Brexit story, the aftermath of

Obama's visit to these shores. We can almost hear the David Cameron

gurgling with pleasure as Barack Obama got stuck in saying why we

should stay in the EU. This is another poll in the paper. Brexit is

now in favour. The majority of people said they didn't want to be

bullied by the head of state of another country. It has backfired.

Good, as a supporter of Brexit. Interesting. I think when you have

an American president coming over saying I think this is what you

should do with your country, when he certainly wouldn't listen to our

views on America, I think the general public to, what do -- what

does it matter what you think? My husband could give you a pie chart

on what Leicester City have to do today. I am glad we don't have him

here. Mitu, why do you think I am here? If Leicester City defeat

Manchester United today, they will become Premier League champions. I

think it is the most amazing story. As somebody said here, the richer

clubs have been competing for players from Harrods and Leicester

City have ballplayers other people have fundamentally ignored and it is

teamwork and they are the giant slayers. Do you wish that was

literally true? I wish there was a department in Harrods with football

players. I think Leicester were 5001 to win the championship. My husband

is a Chelsea supporter so he is keeping very quiet. Talking about

another great Northern story, the fallout from the Hillsborough

verdict has occupied the papers all week. You have the Sunday Times.

It was an historic moment after the 96 unlawful killings, and we can say

they now officially got justice, but what a damning indictment of our

country that it took 27 years. I think the real questions about the

police, cover-ups and the role of the media... OK, we don't have long

left. Kate Middleton has done a vogue photo shoot and it is damned

if she does and damned if she doesn't. It isn't glamorous one, it

is down with the cowgirl look. I think she fantastic but certain

critics has said she looks like something from the Boden catalogue.

Some are saying Her Majesty shouldn't have done this, have you

seen this video about shouldn't have done this, have you

Games? It made me giggle. Thank you, all of you. That was the papers, but

we move on briskly. During all recent flare-ups

in the Arab-Israeli conflict, you may have noticed one man

on your TV screens. Speaking for the Israeli Government,

Mark Regev has been made him a controversial

figure around the world. I don't know if he thought coming

to London as the new Israeli It hasn't turned out

that way so far. You have written in the Sunday

Times, you have been You have written in the Sunday

talking about anti-Semitism. We have assumed anti-Semitism was a disease

of the far right in this country for very

of the far right in this country for is naive? It is naive, and when

people is naive? It is naive, and when

left at least, they say it is not our problem,

left at least, they say it is not themselves. Anyone who knows the

history of socialism knows the left has a wonderful proud

fighting anti-Semitism but there is also in parallel examples of

left-wing anti-Semitism, going back to the founding fathers of leftism.

Stalinist anti-Semitism is known as to the founding fathers of leftism.

well. The left cannot presume automatically it is immune to this

virus. And do you think the virus is alive and well in the current Labour

Party? We have seen some language over the last few weeks which is

very concerning. There over the last few weeks which is

principal people who are very angry about the actions of the Israeli

government. You may disagree with them but they are legitimate that --

legitimately angry and when they say they are Zionists, is there a

distinction between anti-Zionism and empty -- anti-Semitism? If you are

out there with flags and saying the Jewish people don't have this right,

the idea that the Jewish people would want sovereignty and

independence, that is somehow perverse and evil, you have to ask

why are you holding Jews to a different standard and there a word

for that. There are different positions, people who say, as Jeremy

Corbyn's spokesman said, it is a crime for the state of Israel to

exist. There are many more people who say the way the Government of

Israel has behaved offends and appals us and we are angry about it.

Do you accept those people have the right to criticise your government

in vociferous terms without being accused of anti-Semitism? Of course,

Israeli citizens do it every day. If you follow the vigorous debates we

have in my country, it is a robust civil society but it is about

demonising the Jewish state. The comments over the last few weeks

that have been made public, it is not about criticising Israeli

policies, it's about demonising and of the left -- vilification of my

country and its to exist. I have spoken to some who feel the apparent

lack of the Israeli government in hearing criticism from the outside

has made their lives as Jews more difficult in Europe. We are open to

discussion and debate, we do it ourselves, the whole idea Israel is

not open to criticism is a fallacy because the difference between

legitimate criticism and hate speech, and just as there is no

justification for hating blacks and homosexuals, there is no

justification for hating Jews and that is the red line that cannot be

crossed. And do you think it has been crossed in the last few weeks?

Definitely. If you listen very carefully, today's modern

anti-Semites target the collective June, the Jewish state. Israel is

evil, Israel is a perversion. The very same slurs are targeting the

Jewish state. Also people attack for instant Russia, they say that under

Putin has become a rogue and dark and evil state. Nobody denies

Russia's wrote to sovereignty and independence. Why do they deny my

people as macro right to self-determination? Would you regard

the various campaigns to boycott Israeli goods or nocturnal to

academics seminars as anti-Semitic as well? If you were sitting in a

university campus in the UK and all of the troubles in the world and the

Middle East specifically, which is going through a turbulent period of

extremism and so forth and you say of all the countries in the planet I

choose to boycott Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, the

only country with independent trade union, I just raise the question why

are you picking on the Jews and the Jews alone? And the answer will

probably come back because of the behaviour of settlers in the

occupied territories, the war, and the behaviour between the

Palestinian and Jewish people. But if you are choosing to boycott

Israel, you are saying it is all the fault of the Jewish state. That is

such a one-sided view, it cannot be justified by any objective criteria.

Let's go back to the controversy which kick this off, Ken

Livingstone's comments, which said Jewish Zionist in Germany had been

talking to Hitler. He applied some kind of weird comparison which I

don't think anyone follows him down, nonetheless it is true there were

conversations because your own Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has

cited Hitler talking to the grand mufti and wanted to move Jews into

the Middle East. In the first years of the third Reich when Hitler was

consolidating his power, so his policy was to ethnically cleanse

Germany... He wanted the Jews out and didn't much mind where. Correct,

and the Jewish agency was trying to save Jews, getting them out, and

saving lives because most of those who stayed behind were murdered.

There were great British people organising transport, many hundreds

of Jewish children, lives were saved by those very good British people.

Now are we collaborating with the Germans to try to get people out to

save their lives? Of course not. It is a perverted version of history.

Jeremy Corbyn has announced he will have an inquiry into this, the very

respected Shami Chakrabarti will be leading it. What more do you think

he can possibly do? I think it is crucial for leadership to stand up

and condemn anti-Semitism in unequivocal terms. It is important

leadership is not neutral or agnostic about anti-Semitism. You

have had too many people on the progressive side of politics who

have embraced Hamas and Hezbollah, both are anti-Semitic organisations.

Yet some progressive politicians have embraced Hamas. I would ask, if

you are progressive, you are embracing an organisation which is

homophobic, misogynistic, openly anti-Semitic, what is progressive

about that? I think there has to be an unequivocal message from

leadership saying that there is no solidarity with anti-Semites. Jeremy

Corbyn and John McDonnell have both sat in that chair and said I haven't

got an anti-Semitic bone in my body. I don't think anyone in this country

seriously thinks they are people who paid Jews but they have become close

to those organisations because of the conflict. Do you want to meet

Jeremy Corbyn and have a conversation face-to-face with him?

I would love to. I think Jeremy Corbyn seems to be personally proud

that his parents marched against the anti-Semites. The left has a proud

history of fighting anti-Semitism but it doesn't mean elements of the

left have always been immune to anti-Semitism. I think it is crucial

for leadership stands up and says this is unacceptable. Can you

imagine someone in the Labour Party sharing a platform with someone who

was an anti-black racists, or someone who was a homophobic? Why

can you share a platform with someone who is openly anti-Semitic?

Good question, and you would like him to come to Israel? Jeremy Corbyn

was invited to Israel to visit the leadership, I hope he does so. I

would like to talk with you at greater length in the time, but for

now thank you for coming to talk to us. Pleasure.

Last week, I pointed out the weather wasn't

The weather was, apparently, listening and has responded

by throwing the most massive tantrum.

I was filming in Manchester on Thursday when it was snowing.

Yesterday in London it seemed uncannily like summertime.

Somehow, this year, spring seems to have been forgotten entirely.

Matt Taylor in the weather studio will now explain.

It looks like the weather is set to be in a more forgiving mood and it

will look more like spring. Grey skies generally compared with

yesterday, whether from slowly pushing south and eastwards. Heavy

bursts of rain on the hills, lighter patches of rain will come and go

elsewhere. With some hazy sunshine across the north-east of Scotland,

14 your high this afternoon. It stays brighter for longest in East

Anglia, reaching 16 degrees. A rather damp, misty night and turning

wetter and windy later on towards the west of Scotland and Northern

Ireland, but crucially the temperatures are higher by night

than they have been by day for much of this week. The best of the

brightness on bank holiday Monday will be in East Anglia and the

north-east again, but this rain is followed by some sunshine and

showers. None of that snow we have seen, temperatures in double

figures, if not into the teens for many. For the rest of the week, the

weather will be in a much more forgiving mood, most places will be

dry with sunny spells and crucially it will start to feel that bit

warmer. At last, absolutely.

On Thursday, everyone in the UK will have the chance

to vote for someone, with elections for local

councils in England, police commissioners,

the London mayor, plus the Scottish Parliament

and the Northern Irish and Welsh Assemblies.

In Wales, the nationalists have failed to replicate the success

of their sister party in Scotland, the SNP.

To explain why, I'm joined from Cardiff by Plaid Cymru's

Then we'll turn briskly to Nigel Farage, leader of the UK

Independence Party, to talk about its future,

up to Scotland to talk to Nicola Sturgeon, mistress

of all she surveys, at least for now.

According to a recent poll, 6% of people in Wales back independence,

why has Wales, at the moment the SNP is roaring ahead, turned its back on

the independence idea? Good morning from Cardiff. This election that we

face in four days is going to be a referendum on the health service in

Wales. I did ask you why independence... People in Wales were

turning their backs on independence? I don't accept they are, it is not a

debate going on here in Wales. There is a great need to improve the

powers we have and our financial settlement but crucially the thing

that people are talking about the most is the health service, the

education system, and our economy and that's why the election in four

days is going to be a referendum on the health service. From the

conversations I have been having, I can feel change is coming to Wales

and its about time as well because we have had 17 years of 1-party

running the Government in Wales and it is now time for change.

We all know that a treat opinion polls with a handful of salt but

looking at the polling it shows they might lose their overall majority

and Plaid Cymru might be in a position to go in a Coalition

Government. Would you do a deal if that's what it came to? I don't want

a Coalition Government, I want a Plaid Cymru. Government I'm

encouraged by the fact the poll that came out last week, the gap is

closing between the party that has led the government for 17 years here

in Wales and dominated Welsh politics for a century and the party

of Wales. That gap is closing and it shows to me this is a two horse

race. If people want change, they'd need to vote for it next Thursday.

Plaid Cymru has always been a staunchly pro-EU party. If, against

your wishes, the country votes to leave the EU in June, that is going

to put you in a very strange position. Because if Nicola

Sturgeon, she says that will provoke a second Scottish referendum and

possibly Scotland leaving the UK. That would leave Wales as a small

appendage to England, back to the Tudor period, the 15 30s and so on.

Would that be the moment when you thought Welsh independence might

become a live issue again? All kind of anomalies could be thrown up by

the result of the EU referendum. Wales could vote to pull-out. Wales

could vote to remain while England votes to pull out, and that presents

us with a constitutional crisis, you could say. The point for us is,

whoever leads the government in Wales after the European referendum

needs to be in a position to be a strong voice for Wales. The

government that we have had for 17 years has failed to do that, and

that is why, I think, it is good if people vote for a Plaid Cymru

government, so if that eventuality does happen, then we can be assured

of having the strongest possible voice for Wales in the outcome.

Leanne Wood, thank you for talking to us this afternoon.

These are local elections. With this choice coming in on June 23, why

should people be voting for Ukip councillors, what can Ukip

counsellors do which is distinctive? We are the only party that wants

Britain to leave the European Union and are serious about reducing

immigration numbers into this country. Every single local council

in this country is under massive pressure. Housing. We have to build

a new house every seven minutes, just to cope with current

immigration levels. Every other public service is under pressure

because of the rapid increase in our population. That is the English,

local elections. Ukip are contesting the London assembly, the Irish

assembly and in Wales. I think we have a chance of getting people

elected to all four. If we do that there will be more elected voice is

campaigning for Brexit. Only a couple of weeks after this election

that the vote happens in four years or so of these people being in

place. My question is, what kind of politics does Ukip represent at a

local level and in Scotland? We stand for local democracy. We

believe issues should be put to people and they should be able to

call referendums on big issues. With Ukip politicians are all levels you

will get people who are not afraid to speak their mind. We have made

some because in politics in the last ten years, especially about opening

up the doors to form, in its countries and what it would mean to

us here and we have been right. If you want people to represent you,

who are not tied by political correctness and will stand up and

fight for what they believe in, we are the guys. Outspoken, slightly

fruity councillors who want lots of referendums. I don't know how

popular that will be. It depends how much you believe in the property.

There is a feeling at national level we don't get a say on things and

many at local level feel that way as well. We are on a knife edge when it

comes to this vote, the EU vote. If your side of the argument wins, the

conservative right and people like you will be much more powerful and

influential in the future direction of this country. What kind of

country would you like to see us being after Brexit? Self-governing,

self-confident and much more global in Outlook. We have become too

obsessed with Europe. It is an important marketplace but it is a

big world. Those foreign policy answers. They are trade answers as

well. In terms of the nature of the state, is it to be, would you like

to see a small estate? In the past you said you greatly admired

Margaret Thatcher. Would you like or Thatcher like view? I think Thatcher

was right for her time, painful though it was. The big figure I can

sleep is there are 7% of people in this country, people like you and me

whose parents are rich enough to send us to private school. That's 7%

are now dominating business, that politics, the media and even sport.

The rest of the population is being left behind. A social shape up? I

think we need social mobility, a lot of that comes through the education

system. Does that mean a return to grammar schools? Very much so. I

think the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger and bigger. We

have been through a decade where the people earning average salaries,

they are 10% worse off than in 2007. That isn't right. When it comes to

the future of the party, Ukip Innocenti was created for this

moment of the referendum. Win or lose, what happens to Ukip

afterwards? If we win the referendum, we have to make sure the

British government carries out the will of the people. I have seen

referendums all over Europe where the People's voice has ignored. Ukip

being strong and making sure that the government and the Prime

Minister, which won't be David Cameron in my view, but whoever is,

making sure they do go start the process of political force. You said

it won't be David Cameron. Ken Clarke I'm not normally some money

you agree with many things, he said if we see a change in the Tory

leadership and we get the likes of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove

becoming the new leaders of the Tory party after this vote, is that when

you think there could be a change in that huge historic split between

your party and then question what I rather doubt that. People talk about

Ukip being on the right. A growing number of our voters come from the

left. This Thursday there is a big test across the night at Kingdom

come up what will be interesting is to see how Ukip do in labour areas.

We are not an offshoot the Labour Conservative Party, we are are on

party. I will be talking to Nicola Sturgeon of the SNP. She has said

repeatedly it is almost certain of Scotland votes to stay in the EU but

the UK as a whole votes to leave it would trigger and other Scottish

referendum and potentially the end of the UK. You have been a union

Jack Mann all of your life. How would you feel being part of a

process that would lead to the end of the UK? If the UK vote for

independence, Nicola Sturgeon will have a referendum against

independence, and with oil at $37 a barrel, I don't think so. It isn't

going to happen. If there was a referendum she would lose by bigger

margin than she did in 2014. I will put that to her now. Thank you,

Nigel Farage. Listening to that

was Nicola Sturgeon. You are not going to do it, oil is

too low and you won't mean it? I don't think anyone to put too much

faith in the political predictions of Nigel Farage but that is a

different matter. The question of whether or not there will be another

referendum on Scottish independence lies very much in the hands of the

Scottish people. I can't persuade people I didn't persuade in 2014,

those who believe an independent, then we won't have earned the right

to ask a question again. On the other side, if we see a rise in the

support for independence on the prospect of Brexit, I think it would

lead to growing demand for Scottish independence. If we see that growing

demand, nobody has the right to stand in a way of that. You have

always said almost certainly, now you have said definitely. I said it

would definitely lead to growing demand for Scottish independence.

Not necessarily a referendum. Our manifesto is clear. If there is a

situation, what I also have said to you before, I hope this scenario

doesn't arise. I hope the UK as a whole votes to stay in the EU. If we

have a scenario where Scotland is faced with the prospect of being

taken out against our democratically expressed

well, I think the Scottish parliament should have the right to

propose a second independence referendum. Whether they choose to

exercise that right would depend on the circumstances. They are four

days away from an election, which is fundamentally an primarily about the

health service, education system, the economy and the direction of our

country in the next five years. My message is if you want the country

to keep moving forward, make sure you elect an SNP government. You

have said you think there will be a second referendum called by you as

First Minister, which means in the next four years. He said that this

morning in the Herald. The next Parliament term is five years. I'm

very clear and I don't think anybody listening to this programme will be

surprised by this. I want Scotland to be independent. I think it is the

best future for our country so clearly I would like a second

referendum. I would like to see Scotland be independent. I would

like to see that sooner rather than later. It is not just a decision for

me but for the majority of people in Scotland. There will only be a

second referendum, and only be independence is a majority of people

in Scotland want that. In the meantime, if I am re-elected as

First Minister on Thursday I will do everything I can, use every power at

my disposal to make our education system better, our health service

even better, to build the Scottish economy and make jobs. These are

issues uppermost in peoples minds as we go into the final days of this

election campaign. On this trigger question. You said Brexit almost

certainly produces a referendum and you said you want to see the

Scottish people's enthusiasm for that, which can only be measured by

opinion polls. It is beginning to appear as if a couple of weeks will

be enough for you to say the Scottish people want this to happen,

therefore it will. The manifesto we published a couple of weeks ago is

clear for stuff we want to see clear and sustained evidence independence

has become the preference for a majority of people in Scotland. What

does that mean? If that is shown not just in one opinion poll or two, not

a flash in the pan but something that has clearly become the position

in Scotland. How long will opinion polls... I will not put a timescale

on that. I recognise talking about the date of a second referendum

before we have won the argument for independent is pulling the cart

before the horse. I recognise if I want Scotland to be independence I

have work to do, patiently and respectfully, to persuade the people

that we didn't persuade in 2014. If I am not successful in doing that,

Scotland won't become independent. If I am successful, if those of us

who believe in independence are successful, we will. If the UK votes

to leave the EU won't a lot of Scottish people see that as a double

fear? Outside the EU and then outside the UK, a bit too scary? On

the contrary, I think many people in Scotland, if that scenario arises,

which I have it doesn't, will see as a democratic outrage if Scotland

votes to stay in, and the polls suggest that, although I don't give

for granted, if that happened, because we were outnumbered in the

UK we were faced with the prospect of being taken out I think people

would be appalled at that. Particularly not entirely because of

this, but particularly because in the independence referendum those

who campaigned for a no vote, people like David Cameron, told us it would

be voting yes that would jeopardise our mentorship of the EU. I think

there would be a lot of justified anger if that prospect arises. I

will be trying hard to persuade people to stay in. If these things

happened and the UK with out of the EU and Scotland voted to leave the

UK, what would the relationship be between Scotland and the EU question

that we do have to reapply again question and Gabby Adcock the

sessions about this? I am sitting here saying I hope we're talking

about a hypothetical situation. -- have there been discussions about

that question at Iwobi dragged too far into the realms of spec elation

about this. I hope Scotland votes to stay in. I have campaigned for

Scottish independence all of my political and adult life. I don't

want to see the UK vote to come out of the EU because I think it will be

damaging for the UK. I care about every part of the UK,

notwithstanding the fact I am a fan of Scottish independence. I will

campaign for an in vote in Scotland and I hope people in other parts of

the UK vote to stay in. Looking at the front pages of the Scottish

papers, you brandishing a cane. Just be clear, it is a cartoon, not me

actually brandishing a cane. There is a suggestion you will go into

confrontation with the Scottish teaching union and going a bit

Michael Gove? I don't think anything could be further from the truth. I

have made no secret in this campaign about my passion for education. We

have good education, great teachers in our schools, but we still have,

like many countries, the gap between attainment from young people from

our most deprived areas and affluent areas. I want to close that gap. I

am putting forward proposals in our manifesto to invest significantly

more money, specifically in tackling the attainment gap. I have put

forward proposals to get more of that money directly into the hands

of head teachers best place, in my view, to decide how to do that in

their individual schools. I have put forward proposals for more

transparency around the performance of our schools, so we can know what

the attainment gap is and measure our progress in closing it. It costs

money. Next year you get the power to vary income tax, would you vary

it? I would put top rate tax up if I could be sure didn't lose us

revenue. Is that because you are concerned

people would leave the country? I have had advised that if the current

rate goes up and it doesn't go up in the UK, you could see people shift

their income out of Scotland so I would like to put that up but I want

to be sure we wouldn't lose revenue from it. I'm not proposing to give

higher rate taxpayers the tax cut that George Osborne is proposing.

That would allow me if I am re-elected to raise an extra ?1.2

billion in extra revenue over the parliament. And I'm not going to put

taxes up for low-paid workers because I don't think it is fair to

transfer the burden of austerity onto their shoulders. Nicola

Sturgeon, thank you for joining us this morning.

of the most famous faces on our screens and on the stage.

Comedian, Shakespearean, writer and now blues singer!

Along with his band, he's just released an album.

He came into the studio recently to play us a track and to tell

us when his passion for the music began.

I was there, I was signed several times.

I did a character called Theapolis P Wildebeast,

who made such legendary albums such as The Loin King,

and people said, well, you can sing, you should make proper music.

I began writing songs and writing lyrics then, so I've

been writing songs since I was about 23,

I had a secret life as someone who collected records,

I know you do too, lots of vinyl in my house.

A huge fan of George Clinton, James Brown, Prince,

So music has played a major role in my life.

It might surprise people, this is a very political

and, at times, quite angry album.

You have a very angry song about the shooting

It was one of the last tracks we did for the album.

This idea of the police profiling young black men up, so you're 12

years old and they see a 19-year-old animal coming towards them.

This amazing animator called Sam Chegini,

who I think is an Iranian guy, made a video of Cops Don't Know

# We sang about Abraham, Martin, Bobby and Jones

# We say black lives matter, that's true, but even so

# If black lives matter, then how come the cops don't know #.

The title song, New Millennium Blues, it sprawls across a lot

of kind of British issues, bankers, politicians

It makes me wonder what your view is of this country now.

Are you pessimistic in the new century,

or are you looking forward, in that we've dealt

I think the diversity issue, which people know me

for speaking about, is something that is uppermost in my mind.

A friend of mine says until the people who pick and decide

what gets done reflects the nature of our society, the same

things are going to keep happening all the time.

For instance, in the TV industry, it's like the same seven dudes,

who went to the same three schools, get to make the decisions

about the same four types of programme we watch all the time.

So, it's not just simply that the faces on the screen, it's

the people pulling the strings behind it?

The people who make the decisions about what we see are the people

So that needs to reflect society much more. OK.

Finally, tell us about the song you're going to play

We're going to do a Little Walter song, he was a harp

It's a lively, short song, because that's

And we're going to be hearing from Lenny and his band

Now, let's have a look at what's coming up immediately

We are in Salford, after a week of turmoil in the Labour Party we will

be asking is anti-Zionism anti-Semitic? Then comedy, does

religion need more humour? Join in the fun at five past ten on BBC One.

No-one's going to pretend it hasn't been a terrible week for the Labour

leadership after a series of self-inflicted wounds

raised the question about whether there was a real

problem of anti-semitism inside the Labour Party.

It's got complicated, nasty and, for Jeremy Corbyn,

One of his closest and oldest friends Diane Abbott is with me now.

When it comes to the core question of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism,

where do you think the boundary lies? I take anti-Semitism extremely

seriously because, partly because, I represent one of the oldest and most

historic Jewish communities in the country. Even as we speak, I have

Jewish schools in my constituency that have to have special police

protection because of fears of anti-Semitic violence. I take

anti-Semitism very seriously and so does the Labour Party. There have

been 12 allegations of it since Jeremy became leader, it has

resulted in suspension. Ken Livingstone was suspended within

hours. Where do you think it comes from, this kind of politics? It is

hard for me to explain Ken. 12 new allegations, every one has resulted

in a suspension. We are creating a new code of contact with

anti-Semitism specifically in the rule book, and of course we have the

Shami Chakrabarti inquiry. This starts with Ken Livingstone making

some kind of supposed link between Nazism and Zionism, and this is

something that goes back in the left of the Labour Party quite a long way

as we both know. Come on, it doesn't start with that. Where does it start

with? It has its roots in the 19th century. I am asking about the

connection between Zionism and anti-Semitism made by Ken

Livingstone. There are car -- cartoons going back to the 1980s,

when you were involved in the Labour Party. Are you trying to say to me

that the Labour Party, now or in the past, has a particular problem with

anti-Semitism and other parties do not? No, I'm saying the Labour Party

has a problem and you are here to address it which is why I'm asking

these questions. You know yourself a number of Labour Party members, some

of whom are in your immediate family, have they turned into

anti-Semites overnight? The reality is there have been 12 incidents, and

some of those remarks predate Jeremy being leader. 12. 200,000 people

have joined the party. Ken Livingstone was suspended within

hours. What is your message to him now? Should he apologise? Have you

ever known him to apologise? This might be a good time to start! There

will be an investigation on the party will decide what happens to

him. A lot of your colleagues think it would be outrageous to let him

back into the party and very damaging if he is allowed in without

apologising. What he said is so offensive to so many Jewish people

he should not come back in again. What more do you need to know? The

party will decide what happens and Ken Livingstone will have due

process. It is something of a smear against ordinary party members.

Absolutely not. It is a smear to save the Labour Party has a problem

with anti-Semitism. If you haven't got a problem, why have you set up

an inquiry? There's an issue about process. We need to make the rules

explicit. So it is not a problem, just a process thing? Anti-Semitism

is a problem across Europe, we saw what happened in Paris. 200,000

people have joined the Labour Party. You're saying because of 12 reported

incidents of hate speech online that the Labour Party is somehow

intrinsically anti-Semitic? There are elements in left-wing thought

which have gone on for a long time, they are part of the Labour Party

and have been equating Jews and Nazis for a long time which is

deeply offensive. What about this, here is a photograph from a

newspaper edited by Ken Livingstone in the 1980s, Labour Herald. What

could be more anti-Semitic than that? It is a smear? I joined the

Labour Party because of some of the bravest fighters against

anti-Semitism being in the party, there is no basis for arguing, as

you seem to be, that the Labour Party is riddled with anti-Semitism.

It is not fair on ordinary Labour Party members, some of whom have

spent a lifetime fighting anti-Semitism in their schools and

community, to get up this morning and here you insinuate the Labour

Party is riddled with anti-Semitism. I said there is a very clear problem

and you don't seem to be taking it seriously as a problem. How can I

not take anti-Semitism seriously representing Hackney? When I have

schoolchildren going to school in fear of anti-Semitic attacks? We

take it extremely seriously and we have taken all action. I heard the

Israeli ambassador earlier. I have spoken to a lot of people about this

issue, I think we need to have more dialogue. The board of deputies and

the Jewish Chronicle, the Israeli ambassador thinks something has gone

wrong and your party has set up an inquiry so what I'm asking is where

are the roots of the problem in your view, ideological and politically?

Is it to do with an equation between the Israeli state and fascism in

Europe? And is that a disgraceful comparison? Anti-Semitism goes back

to the 19th century and it would be strange if it doesn't affect the

Labour Party at all but the argument the Labour Party is intrinsically

anti-Semitic does not bear exposure to the facts. Nobody except yourself

has used the word intrinsically or riddled, they were your words, not

mine. That is the implication of some of the comments I have read.

The Labour Party and Labour Party members have a lot to be proud of in

standing up to anti-Semitism on for it was fashionable. Do you think the

long-running sort of the behaviour of the Israeli state towards

Palestinian settlers has created a radicalised group of people who are

so angry about what is happening that they have been, at least loose

in their language? There are many people who don't support the

policies of Benjamin Netanyahu, but these are matters for debate. Jeremy

Corbyn for instance described him as an honoured citizen and gave him the

in House of Commons after he had repeated the blood libel. It is all

too easy to take it out of context. Anybody who says Jeremy Corbyn is an

anti-Semite cannot sustain that argument. I don't believe the

British people... I don't think there is anybody out there who

believes Jeremy Corbyn hates Jews. You can take remarks out of context.

The fact remains, living amongst the people I do and seeing the fear, I

take it extremely seriously and the party takes it seriously. That's why

everyone there has been an allegation of anti-Semitism has been

suspended. What has happened in the Middle East has created huge anger

about the actions of the Israeli government and that has caused a

kind of bubbling of more and more extremism language. I should say it

was said a crime that what was done to the dispossessed Palestinians so

let me make that clear. Nonetheless this anger has created an atmosphere

in which there have been lots of debates in university campuses

across the country. Do you think there is not some kind of issue

there that is difficult? All political issues are difficult. We

need to have a debate around the Middle East, we need to move the

peace process forward, it has stalled. It is a fact the Israelis

don't support the current government. We need to continue to

have a debate because these are vital issues for the world. I said

right at the beginning of the programme, I ask whether this was

the beginnings of a coup against Jeremy Corbyn, is that how you see

it? People who talk about coups, these are people who did not accept

the result of last summer's leadership election. We are talking

about Labour Blairites as it were. Jeremy got 60%. I think it would be

very unfortunate if we had another leadership election, the party can

scarcely afford it financially but more importantly the party should be

focusing on fighting the Tories. I have to say to you, if Jeremy is on

the ballot, Jeremy wins. He is as popular with Labour Party members

now as he was when he was first elected. We can hardly accuse

embittered Blairite MPs of causing this, Ken Livingstone started this,

whoever he is working for it is not them as it were. Nonetheless there

are lots of people around who want Ken Livingstone out... Sorry, Jeremy

Corbyn out, who will be looking carefully at the results of local

elections. How do you think the Labour leadership should handle next

week? I would be dismayed if people were

hurling around accusations about anti-Semitism as part of an internal

labour dispute. To using that has been going on? I would be very

dismayed if it had been going on. What I'm saying is this. Yesterday I

was in Derbyshire campaigning for the elections. What Labour have to

do is get out and work. Tick here in London, it is important Labour

people come out and vote. -- particularly in London. Last time

the Tory vote was at 40% but in Labour boroughs it was only 20%. If

labour macro people in London, to vote, we can win. Siddique Khan is

worried this has hammered his chances. What has hammered is his

chances is Islamophobic campaign by chances. What has hammered is his

the Tory party. I never thought I would see a British Prime Minister

get up in the House of Commons and repeat those slurs. If there is to

be an inquiry should be into that. Thank you for joining us, Diane

Abbott. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour

with the Sunday Politics and more on that Labour

story, no doubt. We leave you now with

Lenny Henry and his band - from the New Millennium Blues album,

this is You're So Fine. # Well I've got a girl,

she's fine and brown # What I like about her,

she's mine all mine # Well I want to give

you all my money # Now you fill my conversation

# I'm in love with you baby and I don't want nobody else

# Going crazy cause you're loving somebody else

# I want to love you all the time, yeah