08/05/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

London has her first Muslim mayor - big news for Labour.

Scotland has a new Tory opposition and this morning

there is a new ferocious argument about Britain and EU.

One of the leaders of Vote Leave, the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove,

joins me in his first major TV interview of the campaign,

to explain why his friends David Cameron and George Osborne

From the other side of the argument, however, I'll be talking

to Sir John Sawers - the former boss of MI6 -

who says this morning that it's safer to stay.

And the other big story this weekend is of course a new Mayor for London.

Sadiq Khan seems to be charting a new direction for Labour.

Fraser Nelson, editor of the Spectator, and in the week

of Trump's triumph, Kate Andrews - who represents Republicans Overseas

in the UK, and finally, the Guardian's Anushka Asthana.

with Prince Harry to mark the start of his Invictus Games

He tells us what inspired the Games, and how he got his grandmother

to outdo President and Mrs Obama's online challenge.

If you've got the ability to ask the Queen to up

one on the Americans, then why not?

All that's coming up - but first the news, with Sian Lloyd.

Junior doctors' representatives in England have agreed to re-enter

talks with the Government over disputed new contracts.

The discussions, the first since talks broke down in February,

are expected to cover issues including Saturday pay

The dispute has led to a series of strikes

Khan has warned that Labour will only win elections by reaching past

its own activists. He said that they had to focus on the issues that

voters cared about, rather than internal squabbles. It is expected

he will meet with Jeremy Corbyn tomorrow.

Fire-fighters in Canada say they believe the huge wildfire

raging in the province of Alberta has doubled in size over the past

But they say the blaze is skirting around the edge of the oil

Many people have fled south to Edmonton and officials say that

unless significant rain arrives, the fire could burn for months.

The broadcaster Sir David Attenborough celebrates his

He first appeared on our screens more than 60 years ago

Sir David has since gone on to make groundbreaking

wildlife documentaries, travelling all around the world

to present programmes such as The Life of Mammals,

The Observer story you are hearing about, Sadiq Khan accusing the Prime

Minister of using Trump playbook tactics, but he is also critical of

the direction of the Labour Party in the same article. Spy chiefs say

that quitting the EU is a security risk, that is the Sunday Times. The

Mail on Sunday have so many exclusives that they can't decide

which one to put on the front page. UK navy officer joins IS. The Sunday

Telegraph, migration pressure on schools, that is the pressure on

British schools caused by mass migration, they say. We are going to

start with Anushka. A spread on the elections in London, you want to

talk about their more generally? This is one of a lot of articles

about the election, a lot of focus on labour's cup win, if you like, in

London. If you want to think of a football analogy, how did they do in

the league, elsewhere in the country? There are two narratives we

are seeing, one is that it is the worst result since 1985 in local

election results for Labour. On the other hand, Jeremy Corbyn held on to

a lot of councils in the south that they were expecting to lose. This

article says council leaders were lining up to criticise him after

they lost control, but they didn't do it. To be fair to Jeremy Corbyn,

you can't, on one hand, say he had nothing to do with London, even

though his face was on a lot of Conservative literature, but let's

blame him for everything that took place in Scotland. It is lose - lose

for him in a lot of the papers. He is looking stronger as a result is

not What it has done is killed dead any talk of an immediate coup. There

was not enough there to say Jeremy Corbyn has to go now. He has a lot

of critics amongst MPs in his own party. They will continue to argue

he is not doing well enough. We have talked about labour in the

south-east, the one place they did catastrophically badly was Scotland?

Yes, the worst result since 1918. The Sunday Herald has Nicola

Sturgeon adopting to the fact that there is now a new political Herald

in Scotland, somebody triumphant. Here is Ruth Davidson, the Scottish

Tory leader, the Sunday Times has her not just taking the bull by the

horns, but riding on one as well! It's an incredible achievement. She

has doubled the Tory results in Scotland. The word Scottish Tory is

no longer a contradiction in terms. When I was on the Scottish

Parliament, people pitied you for being a Tory, rather than hating

you, now they are the official opposition. An incredible narrative

of success, not one that Nicola Sturgeon likes much. The question is

if she has the power to call another referendum. She doesn't have an

overall majority, but she could do a deal with the Scottish Greens?

Technically, yes. But they didn't make that clear in the manifesto. So

there is a sense we have reached the peak for the SNP and it is downhill

now. Even her opponents call Ruth Davidson Tank Girl. Let's move onto

the front page of the Observer. Sadiq Khan has written a comment

piece for the Observer. I will leave it to the Observer to prove that

drab, even if he is not the story, can still be the headline. Actually,

his piece really focuses on his own party and the changes that need to

be made. He focuses on the anti-Semitism within the party, to

some extent. He says we can criticise Zac Goldsmith and the

Conservatives, and we showed, for the bad tactics they used in this

campaign, especially against me and my heritage, but we also have to

take ownership ourselves. A very positive piece, I am very hopeful

for him. He and I definitely disagree when it comes to housing

policy and transport, I am nervous about some of the things he wants to

crack down on, like Uber, but if he is talking about speaking across the

aisle, talking to people who are pro-free market, that is positive.

Do you think he will be a big player in the Labour Party in the next few

years? A huge player. A lot of MPs that are not fans of Jeremy Corbyn,

they say they wanted him to win so he could be an alternative

leadership figure for us. It's interesting he had a pop at Zac

Goldsmith's campaign. I think that has backfired for the Conservatives

and for the Prime Minister himself. Even his sister, Jemima Goldsmith,

was tweeting against it? She said it was not the Zac that she knew. I

think they had a choice, even if the tactics were innocent in the first

place, when they saw the noise about dog whistle politics, they could

have backed down. The Sunday Times has a piece about security. That is

coming back into the Brexit debate. They have abandoned that, after the

Brussels thing, but now trying to come back with a joint article by

Jonathan Evans, former MI5, and Sir John Sawers. It's an ambitious

article, most people involved in security tell you privately that

there is no case, really, the EU doesn't really help, it is about

bilateral relationships. In the letter they mention, as a EU member,

the great thing is access to data. It's true there is a database of

90,000 fingerprints, but no way of searching it. Because there is not a

EU intelligence service? There are various agencies. We deal with the

French, but we regard the Spanish as being hopeless, the Italians as

being hopeless. Shh! Is not the sort of thing that people admit in

public. But it is the five guys that we trust. I am looking forward to

hearing what he says afterwards, what most police would regard as the

indefensible. We move to the iPad, we are incredibly cool in

21st-century! Things we have learned about Donald Trump? This has become

a real staple for any political geeks. This is Nate Silver, the guy

who had a good record at predicting what was happening in the election,

less good when it comes to Donald Trump? This article is not by Nate

Silver, but what his team has found is that there was evidence six

months ago that Donald Trump could win the primary, it is just that

people were not working at it. There were not looking at bad evidence,

they were looking at his and favourability ratings, which are sky

high, worse than Hilary Clinton's, which are also bad. But there was

evidence in the polls that he was going to be popular, but people

wanted to shield themselves from it. I am sympathetic to that. We are now

looking at a race that is possibly going to sport two New York

elitists, both truly establishment figures. You used to be close

friends, they now pretends to Haiti seller? There is a photo of them

with their arms around each other Donald Trump's wedding. It is

similar to the now oral election. They deserve a better debate, but we

have to listen to Donald Trump's rhetoric. -- -- to the London mayor

election. I think Hillary Clinton's rhetoric is empty, and a lot of

Americans say they are going to stay home. Republicans like you will be

hoping for a third-party candidate? It's hard to say, the Republican

party might be changed for ever. Destroyed? Well, blown up. Who knows

how it will rebuild? I can't put myself behind Donald Trump, and I

don't want to vote for Hillary Clinton. Lot of stuff about the

fight between the BBC and the government over the charter renewal.

A mandarin -- Amanda has weighed in? The creator of The Thick Of It has

written an impassioned piece about how everybody loves the BBC,

questioned if some people in government don't like that fact, and

thinks it is wrong that the charter should be looked at every five

years. The BBC is a very big player in an industry that is struggling.

It is paid for by the licence fee. I think that difficult conversations

about what the BBC should do, it shouldn't always be responded to by

this kind of outpouring of rage by everybody. Of course, you say it is

difficult, we just lost The Independent as a newspaper, and The

New Day, the editor, we had on this over a few weeks ago and it is gone

already. A lifetime of a mayfly? The BBC is now four times as big as the

biggest newspaper. It is difficult to compete if your opponent is doing

stuff away for free. Not to say we don't love it! I come to you for

cultural news, you want to talk to is about the Eurovision Song

Contest? I am delighted that they are now seeing it for the political

event that it is. There is music, but it is a collision between music,

culture and politics. If you want to find out what is happening in

Europe, tune in next Saturday. Hatchets are buried, kisses are

blown. It deserves a serious analysis which it is now getting any

Sunday press. Russia is now the favourite to win. That is an

alarming geopolitical moment? You can see the trend, France is number

two, they are singing in English this time. They used to hate singing

in English, because they regarded themselves as cultural purists. I

used to go to a party where you had to choose a country and dress up, I

got Lithuania, so that was very difficult. The way we are going as a

society, driverless cars in the Sunday Times? This is so positive,

we have the technology at our fingertips now, potentially in the

next five years, driverless cars. It is something that will make us

safer. It's also going to really help the elderly, who might be

struggling to get around. A lot of stories like this, it speaks to the

best of humans and innovation, and progress, how we have to be looking

forward. We don't want to regulate these things or hold them back, we

want to push ourselves into living better lives. And it will change the

landscapes, no more rows of parked cars, there will not be much point

in owning one, you can summon a driverless car and it will cost

less? Anushka has come in, wearing Leicester City blue. A really great

rags to riches story? You must read the piece in the Sunday Telegraph. A

Leicester Fiesta. After they won, it was amazing. Keith Vaz, with his

Leicester scarf. David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn agreed. The whole

country is rather pleased. Everybody loves Leicester, well done

Leicester. Well done the Sunday Times, it's 10,000th edition today.

Thank you for the paper review. We have heard about the worries from

MI6 and MI5 about leaving the EU. There are plenty of people watching

who will see it all as a bit of an establishment plot -

well, here's the man How did this come about? People

think there are lots of big establishment groups weighing in on

the Remain side. But here come the spooks as well. Jonathan Edwards and

I met at a dinner back in February, and we said to each other then, we

have something to say on this. We didn't want to come in before the

local elections. The real campaign on the referendum is now. So we

decided to intervene around this time. What about Fraser Nelson's

point. He said there is no EU intelligence service. Everything is

bilateral. You talk to other European countries, but you don't

talk to the EU, because there is nothing to talk to. When you conduct

secret operations, you do work bilaterally. If you were working on

an operation in Spain, you work with our Spanish counterparts, who are

actually very good. What BET you does is provide a legal framework

for essential issues like data-sharing. Data is vastly more

important now in the analysis of who is associating with who, who is

communicating with who, and you need to know that in order to uncover the

networks of terrorists or cyber criminals we have to deal with.

Michael Gove says the European Court of Justice is limiting this in a

very dangerous way, and we need emergency legislation to get

ourselves from out of under the ECJ, or our ability to survey will be

surveyed compromise. -- severely compromised. Actually we have a

sharing agreement that we have recently secured which means we have

more advanced information about people coming to the UK who might be

of concern. When Salah Abdeslam, one of the Brussels bombers, was being

searched for, the French were able to transfer DNA and fingerprints to

Brussels very rapidly. Those sorts of requests for information used to

take about four-month. It now takes 15 minutes. It is wrong to say there

is no added value from the European Union. The European of Justice did

strike down and EU directive, and member states are responding

accordingly. This is about privacy, and Michael Gove's point is that the

ECJ is overly concerned about privacy, and will increasingly

hamper the work of organisations like MI6. I don't accept that. It is

interesting that one of Michael Gove's colleagues, said David Davis,

who has taken a decision by the British Parliament to the courts in

order to reverse the decision of the British Parliament, is rather

bizarre that one of the anti-Europeans is using legal means,

using the courts, to try to undermine a decision of the British

Parliament. I think judges generally try to err on the side of human

rights rather than a ring on the side of security. That is beginning

to change as judges understand the scale of the security threat that

Europe faces. What about our ability to deport dangerous

Europe faces. What about our ability connected with terrorism, who are

being stopped by the EU? I don't understand why you say they are

being stopped by the EU. We have the EU arrest warrant now. Back a long

time ago, when we had EU arrest warrant now. Back a long

wanted in France EU arrest warrant now. Back a long

in Britain, it took us ten long years to extradite them back to

France. Now, in the years to extradite them back to

we have deported over 5000 people years to extradite them back to

other European countries. One of the years to extradite them back to

people who were taking part in the July 2005 bombings fled to Italy.

The Italians returned him within eight weeks, which is a remarkable

change, and it's because of EU legislation. Would we lose this kind

of thing if we left the EU? Could we renegotiate? Well Iceland has been

of thing if we left the EU? Could we trying to renegotiate such an

agreement, and has struggled. We have important structures, which we

have built over the last 30 or 40 years, and Britain has

have built over the last 30 or 40 sure the security guy mentioned is

properly considered and properly integrated into the uterus decision

is that are taken. If we walk away, -- in two the EU's decisions that

are taken. If -- in two the EU's decisions that

lose this. We let the government know at the end of last week that we

were planning to do this. If Michael know at the end of last week that we

Gove gets his way and we leave the EU, and we come out of the

ambit, we will be less safe, in your view? It isn't about the ECJ. We

will be less safe because we will not be able to take part

will be less safe because we will decisions that framed the

will be less safe because we will data, which is a crucial part of

counter-terrorism these days, and we will lose things like the European

Arrest Warrant. And a wider point is that it's not just about the

day-to-day cooperation. It is that it's not just about the

the wider stability of our continent. We are secure because the

wider Europe is secure, and continent. We are secure because the

There is a real risk of the pressures on the European Union,

migration pressures, economic pressures and pressures from Russia

pulling Europe apart. We have seen politics in Europe going to the

extreme left and the extreme right, and we need to make sure that the

centre is solid, and that the European Union plays its role in

underpinning democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Thank you very

much for joining us. In a moment, London's

new mayor, Sadiq Khan. But first the weather,

and his city has been broiling over But with weary and unfair

inevitability, it hasn't been and won't be quite so good

in the north and west. Thank you very much. I think there

will be more knobbly knees on display. Yesterday was the hottest

day of the year so far. Scotland and Northern Ireland were a long way

short of that, but you will catch up today. Temperatures getting up to

the mid-20s in places, and getting hotter still across England and

Wales. First we have to get rid of some fog from south-east Scotland

and north-east England, and some Wales from more Western -- some rain

from Wales and more Western parts of the UK. A lot warmer across much of

Scotland today. The South West could hit 24 degrees, much higher than

yesterday. High teens or no 20s across Northern Ireland, with a

chill on the North Sea coast with the wind off the sea. North-west

England could see 26 or 27. Into the mid-20s across England and Wales,

and a hotspot to the north of London. Onshore breezes tempering

the heat, but do take care if you are tempted to take off extra

layers. UV levels are rather high. Don't forget the sunscreen. I think

that is all bases covered. Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London,

is the most senior elected Labour politician in the UK,

and his personal mandate - simply the number of people

who have voted for him - is bigger than that enjoyed

by either Ken Livingstone His message to Labour's

leader this morning Congratulations on your victory. As

you are going through the campaign, did it feel like it was a racist

campaign directed at you? It was a divisive and nasty campaign. Others

have commented on that. Was it racist? Ascribing what the campaign

was like, I thought that the campaign should be fought in

relation to all eternity is. The housing crisis, the challenges

facing Londoners in terms of fares going through the roof, supporting

businesses to flourish and thrive so that more Londoners can get wood

quality of living. How do we bring back neighbourhood policing? I was

disappointed that the Conservative Party chose to have a campaign that

was nasty, negative and vices. Did you think that they were saying, in

effect, Sadiq Khan is a Muslim, and therefore we cannot trust him with

London's safety? People approached major in the campaign, dozens of

parents, uncles, auntie 's, grandparents, saying that they were

encouraging their children, nephews and nieces to get involved in

politics. But after seeing how you have been treated and what you have

gone through, why should we? I have spent my entire life encouraging

minority communities to get involved in civil society and mainstream

politics. I have been fighting extremism all my life. When you

conduct politics, you should do it in a positive way to infuse people

to get involved in politics. The Labour Party is having an enquiry

into anti-Semitism within the party, which you felt damaged jaw campaign

in the final stages. Do you think that the Conservatives now have a

question to answer and should be investigating? It isn't about my

campaign. I have suffered eight crime and I know what it's like to

be different. As a Londoner and a human being, I do think it's right

that people should be victims of hate crime because of their race or

ethnicity. I spoke about there being no place in our party for people

with appalling views. We live in the greatest city in the world. I am

humbled and proud that my city has chosen me to be the Mayor of London.

Growing up, I couldn't have imagined that. The great thing about London

is Christians, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs... We celebrate

each other, and that is why we are the beacon of the rest of the world.

London is probably the world's greatest melting pot experiment, as

to whether people with very conservative religious views can

live alongside people with very open religious views. How are you going

to tackle this? In 2005, people were protesting against me taking part in

man-made law. The great thing about my campaign was it brought people

together, from different backgrounds, rich, poor, lack,

white, old, young, gay, lesbian... We spoke about the best of our

communities, leaders of all faiths and those who are not part of an

organised faith, coming together to celebrate a great city. One person

who wasn't there to celebrate was Jeremy Corbyn himself. You have

written what appears to be a not terribly coded attack on the

direction of the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn. The way the Labour

Party is going now nationally, do you think they are well placed to

win a general election in 2020? We in labour, our mission is to improve

people's lives and change them for the better. We only do that by

winning elections. What are the challenges facing Londoners? How do

you solve the housing crisis? How do ensure that young people have the

skills of tomorrow? How do you tackle air quality? You only do that

by speaking to people who haven't previously voted Labour. By speaking

to Tory voters and those outside our tent. We've got to stop talking

about ourselves. If I was Jeremy Corbyn, I might say, hold on, I talk

about all those issues. What is the problem? And with my face all over

the posters, the Labour Party has done rather well in the south-east,

and Sadiq Khan owes some of his success to me. What was important

was the victor on Thursday was a victory for London. It shows that

London chose hope and unity instead of division. We have got to start

talking to citizens about the issues that matter to them. How do

businesses expand and grow, how do entrepreneurs do well? How do we

skill up youngsters for the jobs of tomorrow? I'm looking forward to

being a mayor of the great city. I can't promise great weather during

my entire male tea, but I will try! That is outrageous! You said that

your slogan is being a mayor for all Londoners. It should never be about

picking sides, you said. Was that a reference... I'm going to show you a

picture of something that came during the campaign. Elections are

about taking sides. Was that you attacking Jeremy Corbyn? Whether you

are a conservative trying to be the man of London, or a Labour Party

member, we need to speak to everyone. That means speaking to

Chief Executive is, people who voted Conservative last time, speaking and

listening to everyone and finding solutions to the challenges that

people face. Looking through the papers, it is almost comic. We

cannot work out whether Jeremy Corbyn is trying to get hold of you

press conference whether you've been trying to get hold of him. Are you

going to meet each other today? I think we are going to see each other

tomorrow. I've had six hours sleep. I've got a full day today. I am

going to the National Holocaust commemoration today. I am going to

be the man who fixes the problem London faces. Do you welcome the

fact that you are going to be the centre of attention for the Labour

Party nationally, who are going to be looking at how you run London and

looking for lessons for the rest of the UK? My mandate is to be the Mall

of London and I am going to do the best job I can. I couldn't dream of

being the mayor of this great city. I want all Londoners to have their

potential fulfilled and be able to do what ever they do, whether it's

to BA Chief Executive or a youth worker or a preacher. If others want

to learn from that one, or campaign to win elections, I'm happy to talk

to them. Sadiq Khan, thank you very much for talking to us today.

Later today, the second Invictus Games will get

under way in Florida, a five-day event in which injured

servicemen and women from 15 countries will compete.

It's the brainchild of Prince Harry, himself a veteran of Afghanistan,

whose experience there inspired him to create Invictus.

He's had some weighty support in promoting it -

an online challenge from President Obama

When I spoke to Prince Harry earlier, he told me how he'd also

enlisted some serious star power closer to home.

Remember when you told us to bring it at the Invictus Games?

Oh, really? Please!

I think the biggest pressure for me was wanting to ask her,

but not wanting to put pressure on her.

She is my boss, she's all of our bosses, she is the head

It seemed appropriate, four years after her helicopter

exit at the Olympics, that this was the right timing.

If you've got the ability to be able to ask the Queen to up

one on the Americans, then why not?

What I had to explain to her was the previous challenge

that I had given to the First Lady when I was in Washington.

So that was when the whole thing started.

She asked if we were going to bring it, I said, yes -

She ended up dragging the President in on something personal

There was no way I was going to come to America,

So, naturally, I was going to drag the Queen into it and say,

She was more than happy to oblige, and I hope that

I certainly enjoyed it, and I know she did as well.

The mistress of the wry aside, but also highly competitive

For those people who are asking what was that all about,

there was no-one else that I could think of that

was going to top the President and the First Lady of

It was an easy thing for me to sit there and go,

right, this has to be the Queen, otherwise we lose, simple as that.

This originated in a momentary light bulb moment you had, as it were,

in a plane coming back from Afghanistan,

in a plane coming back from Afghanistan, during your first tour.

I think you were feeling a bit down at the time?

The best way to explain it to people is I was an officer, I have been

training for three years, training with a select group

I have already been told I wasn't allowed to go to Iraq,

but I was allowed to go to Afghanistan.

The training had been done, we had gelled together and I was out

To be taken away from your team, not knowing what was going to happen

to them and whether you were going to be indirectly responsible

Once on the plane, heading back, with three wounded British soldiers

who were wrapped up in plastic, with tubes coming out

of their mouths and out of their arms, all in induced comas.

One of the guys had a test tube filled with shrapnel that had been

removed from his head that he was clutching while asleep.

I just spent a few minutes sitting there with them,

But that was a real turning point in my life.

Not being Captain Wales, but being Prince Harry at the time,

I was thinking, there needs to be something here.

It was only 2012, after hearing about The Warrior Games,

being able to see it and doing my second tour,

that I actually realised sport plays a huge, huge part in the

Let me ask you about monarchy and royalty itself.

You can pick up a cause, popular or unpopular,

and make it front-page news, and you can choose those causes

and change people's lives for the better,

To what extent is this really the heritage of your mother?

She was the first person, in many ways, to pick up some

of these less popular, more difficult causes.

To me, I don't think it is an unpopular cause, as such.

It is something that needed a spotlight shone on it.

To prove that these individuals, they don't want to be defined

by their injuries, they want to be defined as human beings,

as the person they originally were, here, mentally and physically.

I think all we have done here is create this sporting

platform where they can be in their element.

Literally, it is lives being changed, there and then.

With regard the question to my mother, it's not

This is not about landmines, let's say.

This is more about 15 different nations of individuals that

We get to have the opportunity to be there and create this atmosphere

Looking ahead, let me chance my arm with a cheeky question.

A bit like your mother, you are pursued, every minute

of every day, by lots of people trying to take photographs,

videoing, recording what you are saying,

how can you possibly have a private life?

Cheeky question, you are right, it is a cheeky question.

Andrew, to be honest with you, sadly, that line between public

and private life is almost nonexistent any more.

We will continue to do our best to ensure there is the line.

We are completely aware that we are in a very

I will spend the rest of my life earning that privilege and trying

to bring a spotlight onto things and causes that really matter to me

and hopefully matter to a lot of other people as well.

Everyone has a right to their privacy.

You know, a lot of members of the public get it.

Sadly, in some areas, there is this incessant need to find

out every little bit of detail about what goes

I hope people get to see me here, in this Invictus role,

cracking on with the guys, mucking in and having

This is half my official role, but half my private role.

But the private life has to be private.

Prince Harry, thank you very much indeed for joining us today.

Prince Harry, speaking to me from Florida.

You can see a longer version of that interview on the BBC

Coverage of the Invictus Games starts tomorrow night

Before that, a word about a special programme on BBC Two tonight -

Hillsborough is an in-depth account of Britain's worst sporting disaster

in which 96 men, women and children died.

It includes footage from the stadium, never seen before,

and recounts the families' 27-year campaign for justice.

And coming up immediately after this show:

Join us from Salford at 10.00, where we will be asking just one Big

Question - should we be proud of the British Empire?

To debate that, we've assembled distinguished

entrepreneurs, historians, faith leaders, commentators, and activists

With last week's elections out of the way, the next big date

in the political diary is of course the 23rd of June, and the Referendum

For decades this has been a huge debate within the Conservative Party

- and David Cameron said he hoped it would be conducted

The Justice Secretary and leading campaigner on the Leave side,

Good morning, Andrew. For a lot of people, who still have not made up

their minds, there are two huge issues they are worried about. One

is economic security, will they be better or worse off, and the other

is Security security. I would like to deal with both of those. Can I

start on economics? Virtually every single international body, the IMF,

the World Bank, you name it, they say this country would be worse off

if we left the EU. Why are they all wrong, and you are right? Many of

these organisations were wrong in the past about the single currency.

There were cheerleaders for our entry into the euro. We were told if

we stayed outside, the City of London would be devastated and the

economy would be devastated. The opposite was the case. These

organisations are led by politicians and bureaucrats, primarily, people

responsible for generating growth and creating jobs. Business people

on the ground, as the whole country is, are divided. Many of the most

energetic, like Anthony Bamford and the team behind JCB, they think that

Britain would be stronger outside the European Union. You have a team

of economists agreeing with you, like Patrick Bamford. But he says

that British money factoring would be annihilated?

If your own advisers saying that, why should people believe you? --

manufacturing. Many people on niqab main have views radically different

from the Minister. -- many people on the Remain side. Gerry Adams backs

the Remain argument, it does not mean that the Prime Minister agrees

with them. Nigel Lawson, a giant as a Chancellor, he thinks we would be

better off outside. As I said, there are hundreds of business people,

many of them directly involved in manufacturing, saying we would be

better off out, not least because the European Union imposes costs on

our businesses. An independent think tank says that we face costs of ?30

billion in additional regulation as a result of our membership. Just

because the IMF and OECD were wrong about the euro, it does not mean

that they are wrong about this, they are crammed with economists and are

convinced we would be worse off. They don't have a dog in the fight,

they are not anti-British or anti-EU, they are neutral. That is

an awful lot of very serious and very intelligent, very experienced

people telling us to stay in? As you acknowledge, these are organisations

that made wrong calls in the past. The IMF made wrong calls about

growth in this economy. We have all made wrong calls in the past, it

doesn't mean everything we say should be disregarded now? Does mean

we should look at the record of the people making predictions and

contrast them with the views of people that create jobs and growth.

It is also the case that if we look at the arguments made now about how

Britain might suffer outside the European Union, they are all

arguments that IRA reprieves -- are a repirse of the audience a about

the single currency. We are able to forge trade deals and grow faster

than countries in the eurozone. The EU has brought economic and security

and massive youth unemployment to countries like Greece, Spain and

Portugal. There is fundamental difference between presupposing you

can have a currency union without political union, a ridiculous

assumption in the first place, some would say, and the single market,

which is different? It is not, the European Commission defines full

membership of the single market as membership of Schengen. They say

that full membership requires you to be in the single currency. More than

that, the European Commission and other leaders in Europe have

established in the report, anybody can read it, it is clear the

European Union wants the referendum out of the way, if Britain votes to

remain, it wants to press ahead not just with more countries entering

the euro, but with a banking and fiscal union, added once to exercise

more control over banking regulation and taxes across Europe. Are you

saying if we vote to stay in the EU, the EU will grab control of our tax

system? I think there is a real danger if we vote to remain, the

fact that the countries in the eurozone have a majority within the

EU, means that we could lose autonomy economic live. One of the

terrible things about the dynamic within the EU is that the countries

that have suffered the most as a result of the euro have not learned

any lessons, they want to deepen integration and they have a majority

within the EU that means they can impose policies on us.

So you think that the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister,

supposed to give us special opt-out to set truck, will have the opposite

effect? Many things that have been done good, but one of the problems

with the deal is that we give up the right to veto other countries

progressing towards greater integration, and I think that is why

it is one of the reasons it is safer to Vote Leave, because if we do, we

are in a position to take the terms in Britain's economic interest.

Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, says that every family in

this country will be ?4200 worse off if we vote to leave, and that is a

fact. This is one area where I disagree with George. He is an

outstanding Chancellor, but we disagree here. It's not whether you

disagree, it's whether it is true or not. People are casting around for

some handhold or fact. It is a projection. What is a fact is that

we give more than ?350 million to the European Union and we hand over

control of that money to the European Union every week. That is a

fact. The Office for National Statistics say that the rebate has

to be taken into account that we get back from that. Two critical things.

The EU control both of those things. The rebate can be whittled away. And

the money that the European Union spends in this country is welcome,

but the EU decides. They control that ?302 million. If we Vote Leave,

we control how that money is spent. -- that ?350 million. Should we or

should we not be inside the single market? Do you want us to stay

inside the single market? No. We should be outside the single market.

We should have access to it, but we shouldn't be governed by the rules

that the European Court of Justice impose on us, which restrict freedom

and cost businesses. We have been focusing on the European Court of

Justice today. Before we actually formally leave the EU,

post-referendum, we should have emergency legislation to get us out

from under the ECJ. If that not breaking our international treaty

obligations? We are still inside the EU but we are unilaterally removing

ourselves from BBC J. Will that not cause a lot of problems when we are

trying to have a friendly negotiation? When we Vote Leave,

that is a clear mandate that I am sure the EU will respect. There are

all sorts of things we will negotiate with our European

partners, in our interests and theirs. But we can take immediate

steps to make our country safer. At the moment, the ECJ has interfered

with our ability to share data with our American allies. They have

prevented us deporting people whose presence is not wanted here. So what

Sir John Sawers said earlier is not true? I have the utmost respect for

him, but he is flat wrong. The EEC Joe has in -- the ECJ has intervened

to say that arrangements that we passed were wrong. So we have to

wait for the judgment of the ECJ to decide how our data and our

information can be shared with our American allies. I think that is

wrong. It is clear that intelligence experts from Richard Dearlove to...

Sir John Sawers is an intelligence expert, and he disagrees. He does,

but there are others who disagree with Sir John. The head of Interpol

says that the European Union's open borders policy is like hanging out a

welcome sign for terrorists. Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6, says

that EU policy is against our interest. What about Sir John's

point, that we only know which bad guys are coming in because we are

sharing intelligence across the EU, and that Russells have been

incredibly helpful on this? I am Justice Secretary. I know that the

information system does not allow us to know whether criminals are coming

into this system -- into our country. We only know that people

have criminal records after they have committed and offence. We know

that the most valuable intelligence sharing we have is with the other

countries, Australia, the US, New Zealand and Canada. Intelligence

sharing does not work effectively, we know that. Even within Belgium,

you cannot get the police and intelligence services from within

Belgium to share information effectively. We would be safer if we

were outside the European Union, and we didn't have European judges

telling us who we can and cannot deport. I am not going to go down

the road of the Belgian security services. But what you said about

the single market earlier - you said we shouldn't be in the single

market, but we should have access to it. Your idea is we should negotiate

a new deal to be inside the single market. Do you accept that will come

at a price? We have a free trade arrangement. Under WTO rules? At the

moment... Why should we seek to impose those tariffs that we have at

the moment when we are outside? Once we are outside, we either negotiate

an agreement with the EU or we don't. This is a misunderstanding

that many people have. If you seek a trade agreement with a country which

you currently have tariffs with, you have to decide whether they are to

be reduced. If you do not have tariffs, there is no need to wreck

them. A German car manufacturing is not going to have tariffs erected

if... I do not think that any country in the EU would want to

correct tariffs where they currently do not have one. So we would be part

of the single market without paying any money in and without accepting

free movement of people? If we did that, you would have people from

within the Yukon like the French finance minister, saying that if the

UK were allowed to do that, the entire project would unravel,

because everyone would want all the advantages but with none of the

pay-outs. And you just can't have it. If the British people want to

vote for a deal that has all the advantages and none of the pay-outs,

that would be a great thing. It would be in their interests. At the

moment, the Germans and others, the German political establishment and

others, I should say, want us to stay in because it suits them. We

pay into the European Union, and we import far more from them. It is

win-win for them at the moment, and it should be win-win for us. If we

leave, it will be. We will. Sending money and have control of our

borders. It is 30% of our trade and 3% of theirs. So in proportional

terms, it's not so high. It would be very difficult for a finance

minister to go to BMW and say that they will have to lay off workers

because they want to punish the British for being democratic and we

want to direct trade barriers. They will not go to French farmers and

say that they can no longer sell wine and cheese to the Brits because

they are very upset. So called their bluff, you are saying? It is

important to defend our own interests. It will be in Europe's

interests if we vote to leave as well. As you have acknowledged, the

EU establishment are set on a course of deeper integration, and that

course has brought misery to the poorest people in Europe, such as

Greece, Italy and Spain. Europe needs to change. Through our

renegotiation, we wanted to reform Europe. That hasn't happened, but by

leaving, we can make sure Britain is stronger and that Europe changes.

Isn't there a danger that if we leave the EU, the rest of the EU is

more dysfunctional, more dangerous and lest good for us to trade with.

In other words, the Germans want us to stay because they view us as a

blip on, free trade country with which they can make alliances

against some of the other countries who are different. It is really

worrying if the Germans believe, or anyone else believes, that the EU is

so dysfunctional and so dangerous that an assertion of democracy by

the British nation state means that things come tumbling down. The key

question is that they should leave in the Mirror. Things are very dodgy

at the moment. We are in a very dangerous situation because of the

migration crisis. This could be pushed in a more dangerous direction

if we come out now. You do say there is a moment of crisis in Europe.

They are going wrong because of Schengen, the open borders deal. And

they are going wrong because of the euro. They were big mistakes. The

two biggest projects in Europe in the past tenures have been bad for

Europe. We can make Europe think again by showing that greater

democratic control is in everyone's interests. Let's turn to a domestic

matter which is relevant, which is what has happened in Scotland. One

of the argument against Brexit was that if the Scottish people voted to

leave, the whole UK would be broken. Nicola Sturgeon on this programme

has been very clear that her two triggers for another referendum

would be a Brexit vote and a majority in Scotland saying in

opinion polls that they wanted independence. My question is, if we

vote to leave the EU, and if Scotland then once a second

referendum to Vote Leave the UK, what should the British government

do? If we vote to leave, I think that the union will be stronger.

Scottish National Party has grown since we entered the European Union.

There wasn't a Scottish Nationalists MP voted in when we were outside the

EU. Nicola Sturgeon is not mistress in her own house any more because

she doesn't have a majority. Bruce Davidson led the Scottish

Conservative Party to success -- Ruth Davison, on the basis that...

She won the election -- she won so many seats in the election, Nicola

Sturgeon did, and she said that if there was a Brexit vote, there may

be another referendum. If we voted to leave, there is evidence

suggesting that the Scottish people would be less likely to want to

leave. One of the things is an oil price is much higher at the moment.

We are veering off. My question was, what would you do? Would you stop

the Scots having another referendum? I believe there is no need for one,

and Ruth Davison has said the same. Some of your critics in this

European argument and accuse you of being the person who leaked the

Queen's view about Brexit. I know you have said you did not tell a

newspaper about that story, but can I ask you directly if you had a

conversation with other people in which you discuss the Queen's view

about this, which could have been linked? It -- I am not going to talk

about any private conversations I have had with the Queen. Do you

accept it has caused embarrassment for Buckingham Palace? I'm asking

you are a direct question, and the fact you will not talk about it

suggests that you did have those conversations. I'm not going to go

there. It is very important we respect the role the Queen has, so I

will not speculate about conversations that she has had on

any subject with anyone. Your relationship with the Prime

Minister. You have been very, very close friends and allies for a long

time. We all hear stories coming out of the Whitehall machine that this

has been a very, very difficult time for you both, and that relations are

frosty at best. Your wives are trying to keep things going between

you, but it has been a difficult time. Tell us what it feels like.

Every Wednesday morning I help the Prime Minister prepare for Prime

Minister's Questions. I think any fly on the wall would tell you that

far from being in the deep freeze, these are warm, friendly and

good-humoured occasions. The Prime Minister has tremendous generosity

of spirit and a great sense of humour. He's made it clear that he

would rather I had supported his deal. I've explained I would rather

he took a different position. The great thing about him is was he was

generous enough to allow colleagues to defer, he was generous enough to

accept the nature of the debate. We are lucky to have him as Prime

Minister. Thank you very much for joining us.

That's all we have time for this morning -

Andrew Neil talks to the woman of the moment,

the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson.

Join me again at the same time next week.