25/09/2016 The Andrew Marr Show

We are poised over the Mersey. This is one of England's great, radical

cities. And today's great radical, Jeremy Corbyn, has emerged stronger

than ever. We as Labour leader. But can Britain's socialist opposition

ever take power? -- he has been re-elected as Labour leader.

Jeremy Corbyn joins me to talk about his and Labour's future. I've also

been talking to Boris Johnson about Britain's policy abroad. And talking

to Bradley Wiggins about charges he has been using illegal, but

performance enhancing, drugs. -- legal.

In Liverpool I will be getting reaction to the Corbyn victory from

our paper reviewers, including the Labour MP Chuka Umunna who backed

the losing Owen Smith campaign, and one of momentum's key organisers,

Emma Rees. Plus, representing the entire rest of the political

spectrum, Elizabeth Hardman of the Spectator. All of that coming up,

but first the news. Good morning.

Planned strike action by junior doctors in England has been

suspended over concerns about patient safety.

It's part of an ongoing dispute with the government

The news has been welcomed by the Department of Health,

but the BMA says it will continue to fight it.

It's been a bitter dispute with unprecedented walkouts

by junior doctors in England, but now their union,

the British Medical Association, has called a halt to the strikes.

Escalated action with five-day walkouts had been planned

for the next three months, but they have now been suspended

after concerns expressed by BMA members.

Considering the feedback that we have had from junior

doctors, from the public and from our

patients, we didn't feel that continuing with a plan of industrial

action was something that the NHS could cope with.

There are other options available to junior doctors and we will be

looking into those, however, patient safety is our primary

concern and that's why we have chosen

Strike action affecting routine hospital care in England began

Then, in April, the first all-out strike by doctors took place.

An agreement was reached with the government,

but, in July, BMA members rejected the new contract deal.

At the end of August, a series of longer escalated

Thousands of operations were postponed during the action

The Department of Health welcomed the suspension

of strikes, but urged the BMA to call off

industral action permanently in the interest of patients.

Labour Peer, Lord Mitchell says he will resign from the Labour Party

following Jeremy Corbyn's re-election as Leader.

He claims that Mr Corbyn "has no leadership qualities whatsoever" -

and that "he will never become the leader and Prime

Speaking on the BBC One Sunday Politics programme,

he said he didn't want to stay in the party and fight.

I think the Momentum people, Corbyn's pals, have got this party

by the throat and they are never going to let it go.

I think this is very difficult and it is a hard place to be.

A book by David Cameron's former communications director suggests

he felt "badly let down" by Theresa May during the EU

referendum campaign because she wouldn't support him.

Sir Craig Oliver details thirteen occasions when Mrs May

refused to make the case for staying in the EU.

He also suggests Boris Johnson had last-minute doubts about backing

Brexit - telling Mr Cameron in a text that the Leave

Diplomats from Britain, France and the US have called

for an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss

the continuing violence in Syria's second city, Aleppo.

Airstrikes are reported to have killed at least forty-five

civilians in the city yesterday and the Syrian government

has stepped up strikes on rebel-held areas.

The Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson has suggested that

Russia could be guilty of a war crime - if it was behind an attack

The authorities in the US state of Washington say they've detained

a man they wanted to question about the killing of five people

A gunman opened fire at the shopping centre

The suspect has been named as twenty year-old Arcan Chetin.

There is no information on a possible motive for the attack

The political season is back in full swing. That's reflected on the front

pages of the papers. There is the Sunday Times, evenly divided. No

surprise. My victory vindicates me, in the Observer, now I will give

power to the members says Jeremy Corbyn. I will be talking to him

about what that actually means later on. And this is Sir Craig Oliver's

memoirs. He was David Cameron's spin doctor, top man in number ten, and

he has written a book which the paper describes as explosive. They

are unlikely to do anything else. And the Telegraph, Tony Blair

getting involved that big controversy about British troops

being prosecuted, or challenged, over their behaviour in Iraq and

Afghanistan. Lots to talk about. And the represent momentum -- you

represent Momentum. Please start with your story. This is the

headline I would choose to describe what happened yesterday. -- not the

headline I would choose. It was a great moment for the Labour Party

yesterday. We saw Jeremy Corbyn re-elected with an increased

mandate. And set out a positive speech about how the party was going

to be able to come back together. Made it clear he wanted to wipe the

slate clean. Start afresh. We have an excellent campaign day coming up

on Saturday. It will bring the party together to oppose the Tories plans

to reintroduce Grammar schools. And lots of excitement when that was

revealed. People say Momentum is a bunch of ex-trots. How does that

feel? That is a misrepresentation of Momentum. Many of our members are

very young. And were not around in the 1980s. Don't remember what a

trot is. Exactly. I was a primary school teacher until about a year

ago. The is made up of people across the UK who are committed to building

a better, fairer, decent society. And want politics to be

representative and involve people in every community. So, all sorts.

Let's join somebody who was around in the 1980s, John Prescott in the

Daily Mail. -- in the Sunday Mirror. He says MPs need to say less. He was

asked many times to do interviews about the contest but turned them

down. He said I kept quiet, I wish some of my colleagues had, too.

Certain factors of the party are going to tell other factions to shut

up now. -- certain factions of the party. Many blame the modern

Blairites. Although I think there are only three left. Blaming them

for the whole thing. They've got to find a way to forgive one another

and move on if they are to make Labour a fighting force again. You

are often referred to as one of those Blairites. But you don't like

that label, do you? I don't want to be defined by the passed. He hasn't

been the leader for about ten years. We need something different which is

relevant to this era. We want to get globalisation to work for more

people. We have to move on from this notion of crashing people who

disagree with us. The strength, this is my issue, is peace. It is a broad

church, the Labour Party. You can only win if you are a broad church

political party. For Labour that means you have to take in everybody

from the left through to the centre-left. If we don't do that we

won't be able to hear all of the divisions in society. So, sects do

not win. You really have to get behind Corbyn. Would he make a good

Prime Minister? I want our leader to do as well as he possibly can and

for him to become Prime Minister. But it isn't all about him. We are

not some kind of personality cult fan club, it is about the

collective. Corbyn went become PM if -- unless you have the whole party

behind him. -- Corbyn will not become PM unless you have the whole

party behind him. We've got to move forward if we want to win a general

election. And we've got to get in touch with the rest of the world.

Internal elections are nice because you get to talk to people who agree

with you on things. I campaigned strongly for us to stay in the

European Union. Over a third of Labour voters voted for us to leave

on the issue of immigration. We can pretend that away. We were going to

talk about this later. I don't think we should ignore this, we should

challenge the prejudice. Had we find a solution and immigration, for

example, that resonates with people but is true with our values. We will

be talking about this a great deal later on. The other issue people

have been talking about is this word deselection. Will Labour MPs who

were not pro-Corbin, and spoke out against him in some cases very

viciously, will they now pay the price by losing? -- ro-Corbyn. This

is an ideal opportunity for unhappy party members to say, well, we don't

like the way you criticise our leader. We don't like the way you've

been doing that since the leadership contest. It is time for somebody

more representative of our feelings. We have had constituents... Most

people are Labour MPs, not because of their fantastic qualities,

personal qualities, although they may be, but because they've been

chosen by constituency Labour parties. They are Labour Party

servants. They are. The onus is on them to recruit members who agree

with them. This has been the failure of the moderates, not just in this

contest but in the previous one, where they said they would recruit

many people who believe with their centrist view of what Labour should

be. And they failed each time. And they will keep failing. You talked

about asking servants. The ultimate people the Labour Party serve the

9.3 million people who elected us. We talking about this? The only

deselection chat should be about deselecting the Tory party for the

next election. Corbyn has said he doesn't see any need to change the

rules. So while we talking about this? We have rules that have for 20

odd years. People shouldn't be talking about this. We don't in our

party. We want to get rid of the Tory government to get a Labour

government. The Tory MPs want to get rid of... Meanwhile, however, we

have the dancing round of stories in today's papers not addressing it.

Chuka Umunna to the words out of my mouth. Everybody in the Labour Party

is sick and tired now of having this internal conversation and all of us

want to come together, the whole broad church of the Labour Party,

the Labour family, and really put together how we are going to take on

the Tories, how we're going to build that opposition government. So, The

Mail on Sunday claims that Chuka Umunna is going to take on Jeremy

Corbyn before the election. CHUCKLES

Was concerned to see this. I think we are all tired everybody who has

been out campaigning during the leadership election. We certainly

don't want to be entering another leadership in action, the third in

one year. Absolutely. Is there a fragment of truth in this? I agree.

This issue of the leadership is settled. We don't need to be talking

about this any more. We need to be working out how we win the next

general election. Ultimately that is the way we put our values into

practice. Because I listen to my reviewers, we won't talk any more

about the Labour leadership. Now, the Tory leadership. This book by

Craig Oliver that has been serialised in The Mail on Sunday. It

suggests there is a big problem. This idea that the Labour Party is

the only party that has had division in it is blown apart by all of the

papers today. Craig Oliver describing Michael Gove as acting

like a suicide bomber. The interesting thing about this is, as

I said, we are not the only divided party. Secondly, Theresa May is in a

fragile situation with that small majority of hers. She has a divided

party. You might not see it being aired, but I can tell you from Tory

MPs I've spoken to that the sacked and the disgruntled are furious. The

litter has been kept on this. Part of the Prime Minister's problem is

she has no vision for Brexit. She has no plan. The people arguing for

us to leave the EU, who told us they knew what it would look like, they

have no plan. It is scandalous that over the summer she had to bring her

Cabinet ministers together to brainstorm about this. A lot of this

story is about angry Cameroonians here. Yes, and they should take some

responsibility. -- Cameronians. It is this thing about hard Brexit

against soft Brexit. Would you explain this. In the Commons it was

explained as leaving the EU. But now there is this debate about whether

we retain single market membership. Whether we can control immigration,

something the British people apparently voted for in the

referendum. There seems to be a difference of opinion. The three

people Theresa May chose to look at this, she is constantly slapping

them down every time they give an interview. And Boris, who you will

hear later in the programme, will not be easily slapped. Do we get out

quickly, and don't be part of the single market, have a complete block

and immigration, or do we do it softly? That is the big argument

inside the party, isn't it? Craig Oliver's stuff is interesting

because it harks back to some of the tensions in the Conservative

government. I think there's probably a hint of revenge in this. Can I

just put Cameron right at the forefront of that campaign to stay

in? That was a mistake. There doesn't seem to be any

acknowledgement of that. The other thing that has divided some Tory MPs

is the grammar school announcement, the return to grammar schools. I

think you've got a story about that? Yes, we've got this in the Sunday

express today, which suggests that grammar schools are actually helping

the poorest children, which is a peculiar article actually because it

really does fly in the face of all of the evidence is on attainment. As

I said before, I was a schoolteacher until about a year ago and it's

really clear, all education professionals are united on this,

that actually is a comprehensive education system is by far the best

at raising attainment for everybody, not just small sections of the

population. All right. We were going to talk about Donald Trump but we've

run out of time. If you're interested in politics on

television, Trump versus Clinton will be sensational, watch that

later on. Calm has descended on Liverpool

after a wild and blustery night. Andrew, all you've succeeded in

doing is exporting your wild and blustery night further to the east

A not do Menglu Ma tool -- not all doom and gloom, this was the scene

in Hornchurch. There was the wet weather that dominated the scene

across western Britain through yesterday. Now it's moving further

east. None of that really describes the day as a whole, which, for the

most part, will be one of Sunny spells and then a lot of blustery

showers and I mean a look of blustery showers. There may be a one

bowl of thunder and a bit of hail. Nowhere near as warm as it was

yesterday. A fresher feel wherever you are. Overnight, some of the

showers will fade away in the south, only to be replaced later on in the

night by a new area of low pressure with this cloud and wind and rain

piling towards Wales and the West of England. Some clearer skies further

north in Scotland. Looks like Monday will be one of those days, as the

rain creeps closer to the north and east. The best of the conditions,

Andrew, you will be glad to hear if you're heading out up towards the

north of Scotland or indeed the north of Northern Ireland.

Boris Johnson, now our Foreign Secretary, has been

attending his first UN General Assembly in the US

and he joined me via satellite from Boston yesterday.

I began by asking him about Jeremy Corbyn's re-election

as Labour leader and I suggested to him that the Labour Left

might yet prove a serious threat to Tory Britain.

Well, I must say that I don't really think so, Andrew. Of course Jeremy

Corbyn's victory is by a considerable margin, then this is a

very small minority of voters who have chosen him. They have a

particular view of the world. But I'm afraid that they have a series

of policies that I think would make Britain less economically secure and

less secure on the world stage as well. If you look at Corbyn's

policies on taxation, he wants to whack up taxes and borrow stupendous

sums of money, which the country can't afford. I think his economic

programme is extremely dangerous, some left wing and 1970s Dave Sparks

style agenda. He wants to abolish the army, he wants our nuclear

submarines to go to sea without nuclear missiles aboard them, so the

whole country is literally firing blanks! I mean, it's not serious. I

accept that he has substantial support, but as I say, my belief is

that this is really a small proportion of the overall electorate

and the vast middle ground can now see that it is one nation

Conservatives who are offering a united programme to take the country

forward and drive up standards in schools, keep the economy motoring

along and project Britain across the world. Let me ask you about the

timing of article 50. You suggested early next year. Donald Tusk has

said January February seems likely. Is that where we're heading? Well, I

think the crucial thing is that, obviously we're not going to do it

before Christmas and I think we've got to do a lot of work to get our

ducks in order and that is going on, but then after that, as the Prime

Minister has rightly said, this process probably shouldn't drag on.

I think what Donald Tusk wants, what everybody wants, what everybody in

the UK I think once, is clarity and getting on with it. And not letting

the process drag on, I think that is the key phrase I would use. And the

opportunity is to do a deal that I think would be very much in the

interests not only of the UK but also our friends and partners in the

EU. Having spent a lot of time in the last week or so talking to other

countries, they're starting to see the opportunities from Brexit. I'm

just interested in the timing of article 50. Everyone is at the

moment. George Osborne has said recently we really ought to wait

until the end of next year because, and he makes a good point, the

French and the Germans are going to have elections and we don't who we

are going to be with in Paris and Berlin and that is really, really

important, and in his view, we can't get on with it until we know who we

are talking to. Look, I think I've given you a pretty full and fair

answer there. We want to not do it by Christmas but obviously we can't

let the process drag on. If you think about it, there are obviously

Euro elections coming down the track and I think people would be

wondering whether we want to be sending a fresh batch of UK Euro

MPs. To an institution that we are, after all, going to be leaving. So

let's get on with it, let's not let it drag on, as the PM has said. I

think we can be incredibly positive... What George Osborne has

said... Talking to businesses here in Boston, what is really

enthusiastic is how enthusiastic they are about stepping up their

business with the UK. The economy has been going well and is a lot of

those warnings about the economy post Brexit seem to have been wrong

so far. For us to carry on, we need lots of skilled migrant workers with

specific skills still coming into the country. You said you were the

only politician in the country pretty much prepared to stand up and

say you are pro-immigration. Are you still pro-immigration? Yes sir! That

means exactly as I say, I want skilled and talented people to come

to UK if they want to make their lives and fulfil their dreams in our

country, I have no problem with that provided we have control. The last

figures we have, 333,000 people came in a net, from around the world.

That is a huge sum. Around 175,000 net from the EU, in an uncontrolled

way. I think most people in the country would say those numbers are

too high. But for they economy to keep on growing, we need

considerable numbers into the construction industry, the NHS,

banking... People who voted thinking there would be no more immigration

will be completely wrong. Well, two things. You say that we need

immigration, immigrants to do all these things in construction and the

NHS... To a certain extent that is true but we've also got to invest in

our own young people and invest the skills of people growing up in this

country. For 25 years, UK business and industry has been mainlining

immigration like a kind of drug without actually investing enough or

caring enough, frankly, about the skills and training of young people

in our country. That is what Theresa May and the new government will want

to focus on. A lot of people voted for Brexit because they saw the

adverts for more money coming into the NHS. The ?350 million was much

discussed and if you drill down into vote leave's figures, it is actually

more like ?100 million a year. Andrew Lansley has suggested that

the NHS should be getting more like ?5 billion a year because of Brexit.

Can you pledge as a member of the new government that it will happen

by the end of this Parliament, providing we've left? Yes, in the

sense that, clearly, once we leave, this isn't possible until that final

moments of the change in our arrangements and we take back

control of the budgets we contribute to the EU, once that happens, as

we've always said, nearly it will be possible for the UK Government to

spend people's money on our priorities. The number one priority

for most people is indeed the NHS. It sounds to me like Andrew Lansley

has got it right. You've been talking in the States about the

massive refugee crisis around the world and of course the refugee

crisis is driven by the war in Syria, a ferocious assault now going

on against Aleppo. Our planes in action in Mosul. If the attack on

the aid convoy isn't a war crime, what is it? Well, Andrew, I think

that is the right question to ask. A war crime is defined as when you

attack a civilian target in the knowledge that it is a civilian

target. Putin's regime is not only, as it were, handing Assad the

revolver, but in some instances he is actually firing the revolver

himself, the Russians are actually in gauged. We have an absolutely

tragic situation now in Aleppo, which is being bombed, repeatedly

bombed in a way which is absolutely barbaric. Yes, if you say to me that

the West is too impotent, I would have to agree. I would have to agree

that since we took those decisions in 2013, since the red lines were

crossed, we have not really had a viable military response or any kind

of kinetic response, as it were, do what is going on. I don't think

there is any real appetite for such a thing. We are tightening sanctions

against Russia and the UK is in the lead on that, very firm on that. But

I think there is one thing that the Russians respond to. That is the

idea that it is they who are in the dock in the Court of international

opinion. They are guilty of attracting this war and making it

far more hideous. When it comes to instances such as them bombing of

the aid convoys... They don't really care, do they? We should be looking

at whether that is done in the knowledge that those were wholly

civilian targets. Because that would be a war crime. In other

circumstances we might have been talking to you as our new Prime

Minister. During the summer, your reputation was brutally and publicly

assassinated by Michael Gove. Have you had a conversation with him

since and have you forgiven him for that? Well, I'm very, very happy to

be doing the job that I'm doing. I think what people want us to do in

politics... Not in my opinion! If you'll forgive me, get on and

deliver the agenda that Theresa May and the new government... Have you

forgiven Michael Gove for what he said about you? Have you spoken to

him at all? I think, if I may say so, people are probably more

interested in the tragic plight of people in Aleppo than

in the microsomographica of the Tory infighting. Theresa May has run onto

the field, grabbed the ball and headed off into the car park. Is it

all over for you as a Prime Minister or does the ambition still burn? I

think the ambition that burns in the whole government is to get an and

deliver for the people of this country a government that works for

everybody in the UK. That's what we want to do and we set out a very

ambitious programme. If you look at what we're doing with schools and

what we're doing with the economy, I think we're going to take this

country forward. Of course I'm very, very proud to be representing our

country as Foreign Secretary. I tell you one thing that absolutely amazes

me, Andrew, I've been knocking around a bit in the UN General

Assembly and I think people in Britain have no idea the kind of

stuff that Britain is doing around the world and the respect and

affection in which we are held by ordinary people around the world. We

are a global player and we should not forget it. Boris Johnson, thanks

a lot for talking to us. Thank you. Boris Johnson, imperturbable

statesman. The world of international cycling

was turned upside down by the Lance Armstrong doping

and cheating scandal. Now, the hero

of British cycling, our most garlanded Olympian,

Sir Bradley Wiggins, faces accusations that he used drugs

which can enhance performance before key races, including

the 2012 Tour de France. When I spoke to him this week

I asked what he'd used and why. It was prescribed for allergies and

respiratory problems. I've been a lifelong sufferer of asthma. I went

to my team doctor at the time. We went to a specialist to see if there

was anything we could do to cure these problems. He said there is

something. But you will need authorisation from... You had to ask

for permission? You have to provide evidence from a specialist that they

will then scrutinise with three independent doctors and authorise

you to take this product. At that point, once I have the certificate

from the world anti-doping agency and the governing body, only then do

you the medication. Trouble is, lots of people say it is a performance

enhancer. There was a German cyclist who said after he had taken it you

are going to suffer less, you will be less tired as your recuperation

is faster because of the anti-inflammatory effects. Other

people have said the same kind of thing. David Miller said it was the

most potent drug he had ever taken. But they were abusing that drug in

that error. They were simply taking more of it. More of it and abusing

it. This was to cure a medical condition and was... Was... The

governing body, the world anti-doping agency, said... This was

not about trying to find a way to gain an unfair advantage, this was

about putting myself back on a level playing field to compete at the

highest level. The first couple of times you were clearly unwell. But

the third time, before the 2012 Tour de France, you would a favourite,

there seemed to be no medical problems, yet you took it again. I

struggle in that period. June, July, that's the worst period. April,

June, July... Those are the worst months. I was having problems. When

you are a few weeks out, you are the favourite for the Tour de France,

Team Sky, you had the medical team, coaches checking everything, telling

us that -- are telling me I was on track. They ask is there anything we

can help with. I said I was struggling with my breathing last

week. Is there anything else I can do to make sure that this doesn't

become an issue into a three-week race at the height of the season. In

turn I take that medical advice. We should emphasise that nobody is

suggesting you've done anything illegal. But David Walsh, who was

the journalist who exposed Lance Armstrong was invited in by Team Sky

to watch you all. He has been involved with you. He says it isn't

illegal but it looks bad. Do you understand that? Yes, I can

understand, there is still an open wound in our sport. This drug was

abused back in that era. But even with the needle comment I made, this

was about, at that time if I can paint a picture of the landscape in

2012, right at the height of Lance Armstrong, and just before the crash

with him. The have you ever used needles? That was always a question

about doping. Nobody ever asked the question, have you ever had an

injection by a medical professional to treat or cure a medical

condition? There two sides. There was very much a doping emphasis in

the question. You said I haven't been injected, I haven't used

needles except for vaccinations, but that wasn't true, was it? The

medical conditions. I wasn't writing the book. I was writing it with a

cycling journalist who was knowledgeable and the sport and had

lived through the Evra of the Lance Armstrong error and the doping era.

-- the era of Lance Armstrong and the doping era. At the time Team Sky

were promoting its latest achievements. Somebody said that

blue stripe represents the difference between doping and doing

something illegal, and we push up against the limits of what is

allowable. We are professional, we are tough, we do everything we can

to win, but we never crossed that line. Do you accept that in this you

have been up against the line? We have rules and legislation in our

sport. We are governed by the cycling governing body and the

anti-doping agency. As athletes we don't invent those rules. We have to

abide by those rules. Team Sky, bigger cycling team in the world,

100%, everything they have done has been within the rules and they have

abided by the rules set to us. We are being scrutinised for abiding by

the speed limit. Team Sky has had a very hard time from lots of other

countries. The French and others have been borderline insinuating

about your team because you've done so well. They ask, are you

superhumans, what is going on? Is this the kind of thing you can live

with now? The sport lives with that. Whoever is leading in the sport. At

the moment it is Team Sky leading the way. They are setting the

standard for everybody. They are the best at what they do. Unfortunately,

when you are the best at what you do comes scrutiny. Especially in a

sport with a tainted history. You are here in the cycling world. You

are interested in politics. You've always been a Labour supporter. You

invited Jeremy Corbyn to help when you are editing programme. There is

a guy who is a keen cyclist, could do with some help, are interested in

helping him in some way? I don't think he needs it. I've met him.

Lovely fellow. I don't agree with everything he is for. I think the

world is changing at a fast pace. My family has been historically Labour,

so has my wife's family, but I think Theresa May has done a great job in

stabilising the country in the short term after the holder Barco in the

summer. Thank you very much. -- after the whole the debacle --.

This victory of yours changes things for the Labour Party. What is the

major thing it changes? I've been elected by a substantial majority of

the leadership supporters and affiliates. I think that is an

indication that the members want our party to challenge the government

and austerity and change to go in the direction of saying we want a

more equal and decent society. And that is what we will campaign on. I

started yesterday by announcing we will do an education campaign in

Gaelic Saturday about grammar schools and 11 plus. -- education

campaign day on Saturday. The Labour Party has a behind closed doors way

of making policy at the moment. Are you saying you want decisions to be

taken by an open vote? That is a good description. What I want is a

more open party. I want members and supporters involved in all aspects

of party decision-making. I've asked the national executive to look at

the ways we can democratise in bringing more members into

decision-making, policy-making, coming from the grassroots, and

greater trade union membership involvement in it. There is a thirst

for change. If somebody watching has joined the party recently, has

supported you come is part of this new membership, they might want to

say is through their local party in, I don't know, policy over Trident,

nationalisation, whatever it may be, are you saying you agree this people

should have a bigger voice? I want more powerful members and supporters

to ensure we have policies that have support throughout the whole party.

We are opposed to what the government's overall economic

strategy is. But there is also a question of what you invest in, how

you invest, which roadworks you change, which railways you change,

which broadband you support, which industry you support. There are lots

of skill sets out there. We'll members get a big majority of voting

in those decisions? -- will. If you were a new member will your vote be

as powerful? I would like people to participate more. Much more online

policy development. Much more online policy-making, as well. Big exciting

conferences, with votes on the floor, and you don't know which way

they are going to go. I remember them from the past. You were excited

by them. Of course, I was a journalist. Yes, it needs to move

much more to the centre of concluding our policy debates.

People can then see what discussions we are having. I think that is a

healthy thing to do. A conference should be representative of members

and their views. You have success inside the party. It is nothing to

the challenge of becoming the new Prime Minister. If you want to be a

successful socialist Prime Minister in this party you cannot do that

unless you have a Parliamentary party at your back who support you.

I know there are lots of argument about deselection. But in the end,

doesn't that mass membership, with their views, deserve to be

represented properly in the House of Commons, and don't you, if you are

ever going to be a socialist Prime Minister, need to have the support

that you don't have now? I'm reaching out our MPs. Discussing

with them. We have talented people. There are some differences in policy

opinion. But there is also a great deal of unanimity about it. Look at

the campaign and selection of education. Look at the campaign of

the NHS, workplace benefits, all those issues. The party is actually

quite united. They walked out of your Shadow Cabinet. Terrible things

were set on all sides during the election campaign. -- terrible

things were said about you on all sides during the election campaign?

Really, well, you've only got half an hour. Surely those people have

now got to shut up. They cannot carry on saying those things about

you, your uselessness, their word, now you have won a second leadership

campaign. I've never said anything personal about any of them. I don't

use that kind of language. I dedicated body else should -- I

don't think anybody else should. Let's move on. That's what I said in

my speech yesterday. Move on, keep your lips tighter. Move on and

discuss policies where you agree or disagree, but your contribution into

the debate, put your contribution into what we do in Parliament,

represent your people, put your contribution in to making your party

and movement stronger. We have a massive membership. Everybody should

be pleased about that. You've dismissed in the past the idea of

deselection of MPs going around the country. One, it's already

happening, there are places, one is near here, there is one in Hove,

there are moves to remove Blairite candidates. Is your message, don't

do that, that is perpetuating the divisions? My message is,

concentrate on policies, the campaign, concentrate on what we

should be putting out as a message. My message to MPs is that you agree

on the policies, go out there, and do it. But we are going through a

change. Every constituency boundary is going to be changed. Therefore, a

new selection will have to take place in every single constituency

where the sitting MP with a substantial geographical coverage to

the new area will automatically be short listed. Do you want to see

most of those MPs reinstated as Labour candidates, or would you like

to see the Labour Party, after this process, that is more representative

in your kind of politics? I wish them well. The relationship between

an MP and their constituents is a conjugated one. It is not all of the

policy kick -- it is not all of the policy box ticking stuff. Let's have

a democratic discussion. The vast majority of the MPs have no problem

whatsoever. Lord Mitchell, who has just resigned, has said today that

he has to go because he believes Momentum, Corbyn's people, he says,

have them by the throat. But then he says something disturbing. Has he

met anybody in Momentum? Spoke to anybody in Momentum? I haven't asked

him. This goes back to issues in the past. He says it is difficult if you

are Jewish and you support Israel to be a member of the Labour Party.

That is disturbing, isn't it? It is unfortunate he would say that

because it isn't a fair comment. I would hope he would reflect on that.

Clearly there are diverse views within the party and issues in the

Middle East. But there is unity in the party of opposing any form of

anti-Semitism, any form of racism, that is very clear in the party. Let

me move on to be policy issues. You said there were two areas you wanted

to take to the Tories. One is Brexit, and one is the economy and

austerity. When it comes to Brexit, do you accept that all of those

people, or many of those people who voted to leave the EU, did so

because they were worried about the scale of migration? Boris Johnson

said this country has been mainlining on too much migration for

too long. And therefore there needs to be a cut in the number of

migrants coming to this country? It's quite hard to keep up with

Boris Johnson's changes of opinion can actually. That is his latest, is

it? Free movement of people, does it have to end, in your view? I think

if we have a market arrangement with Europe, there's going to be a demand

by Europe that is absolutely clear, particularly by Germany, that has to

include the rights of people to work in different parts of the European

Union and Britain, which will then be outside the European Union but

part of the market. There is then the question of British people

working in Europe and British people with homes in Europe. If I can just

include the point, the other issue which is the one that caused the

most concern is the undercutting of wages and conditions and the impact

of immigration on some communities. A migrant impact fund to deal with

that but also the undercutting of wages, bringing people in on lower

than local wages and destroying local wages, for example in

Lincolnshire the average wage is a lot lower than elsewhere in the

country and it infuriates a lot of voters. The basic question is going

to be, this is and I committed inside the Government too, hard

Brexit or soft Brexit? Do we accept that we don't have access to those

markets but we turn off the tab on immigration and end the free

movement? At some point you're going to have to say, either yes, I accept

an end to free movement or no, I'm in favour of free movement, say

which is it? If we had a hard Brexit, there would be a huge hit

taken on manufacturing in Great Britain. 70% of British exports go

to Europe and we would be hid very badly. If the vision is of Britain

as sort of a tax haven offshore island from Europe with great levels

of inequality and also most manufacturing industries, I'm not

sure that is something that is very appetising to most people in this

country. They want to deal with Europe which does protect those

markets, which does ensure there is not this undercutting process, that

there is some equality across Europe. I have been reaching out by

meeting European socialists so we have some sort of agreement on what

sort of future economic agreement we have -- economic relationship with

Europe. That is the key question. Britain has not negotiated a trade

treaty for 40 years. Ministers have said that Parliament is not going to

be told how those negotiations are going, none of the detail, until it

is all over and the deal is done. Do you think it is democratic and

sustainable? I don't think it is democratic or sustainable at all. It

is the most significant economic issue facing Britain in mine or your

lifetime. At the very least I think Parliament should be fully informed

and told. We've set up a Brexit team, led by Emily Thornbury, our

Shadow Foreign Secretary, that is meeting here but is also meeting in

Brussels and meeting our colleagues across Europe and have invited

leaders from trade unions and socialist from Europe to come to

London for a full conference on how we will work with them to ensure

that we accept the result of the referendum, we understand the result

of the referendum, but we build a strong economic relationship with

Europe in the future. That is what a strong opposition should do and it's

as a shame that the government can't do the same. A ?500 billion infusion

into the British economy, that is an eye watering some, to give people a

sense, about 70% of everything the government spends in this country,

in one year. That is a huge increase in borrowing. I know in Crest rates

are low at the moment but they go up as well as down. Have you any

calculation is as to how much British taxpayers would have to

spend if you do this? It would be an investment that brings in greater

tax income. We've had six years of austerity in Britain and six years

of austerity that has reduced wages and living standards for many

people, cut public services in many places and has not resulted in the

economic growth that the Government predicted. We're saying, invest in

order to grow. How did you come up with ?500 billion? A calculation

based on the... Obviously there is an approximation. It's not just a

nice round figure? It is a nice round figure! But it gives you the

infrastructure you need on railways, broadband, the investment you need

in developing high-tech, sustainable industries in Britain, which this

government is paid in the not doing. We don't have a banking system that

is prepared to invest in them, we're losing our industries elsewhere.

This is very much the language of previous Labour governments, funding

the NHS for a long period of time and we know how that ended. Tony

Blair and Gordon Brown poured money into the British economy and then

came the crash and British people decided they could not be trusted

because they spent too much, their instincts were still borrow and

borrow and borrow. You are saying much the same thing. The crash was

not caused by Government investment in services in Britain. It was not

caused by the number of nurses or teachers we have in Britain, it was

caused by deregulating banking system which was investing in

sub-prime mortgages in the USA and there was a contagion because of it.

Since then, the banking regulation requires them to have similar thick

sufficient capital assets to protect against that and there is more

regulation on the banking system. It was not government expenditure which

caused the crash. For whatever reason, the idea is deeply rooted in

British voters that Labour governments borrow and spend too

much. Invest to grow. Invest in housing. But it this way, we're

spending ?9.5 billion every year on subsidising the private housing

market, on the private rented sector through housing benefit payments to

tenants who have the right to access those benefits. If those people were

in social housing, council housing, the cost would be incontestable

compared to ?9.5 billion and we would have that money to invest in

building houses which in turn creates jobs all the way down the

supply chain. Can I ask you a slightly philosophical question

about capitalism? There are two different views of capitalism on the

left generally. One is that it is a dynamism, entrepot lairy alyssum

creating wealth but also and waste. -- entrepreneurialism. The other

view is that capitalism is a view driven by greed and individualism

and in the end we want to replace it with a socialist system. Which side

are you on? Well, you put it in a very stark way. I think there has to

be a mixed economy. I think there is a huge role for the public in

running public services. Like the NHS, instead of privatising them. It

is important that we have a strong manufacturing base as Scandinavian

countries and Germany do. I want to see a system where we produce what

we need for people that need it, rather than the greed of those that

don't need it. In the old days on Merseyside, there was a lot of talk

is out here about monopod lies in the top 100... -- the top 100

monopolies. I'm not up for that. I think we have to have public control

over key services, health, education, transport. We have to

have a government that is prepared to invest in the economy and

participate in it, in the way that successful manufacturing economies

have a role for the state in developing manufacturing industry.

It's not a bad word. You have used the phrase nationalised the NHS,

Abilene nationalised NHS. Does that mean that drive at companies are

doing, for example, Glik coma operations more faster and cheaply

than the NHS can arrive should be banned, or the NHS should stop

buying those services? I think the NHS would be better served if its

services were in-house. Always? You and I have probably used the NHS, in

fact probably every viewer of this programme has used the NHS. When you

bring in a barrier between a local hospital and a contracting company

to do some services, it often ends up more expensive. We have an NHS

dominated by a culture of contracting out services. We only

have an NHS because Nye Bevan did a series of important deals to found

it, of which the most controversial was allowing British doctors who

were against the NHS to carry on doing Private business. There's a

proposal at the moment that money they earn from private work should

be published. That is controversial. Would you go further and say British

doctors working inside the NHS should be moonlighting and doing

private work? The vast majority of GPs don't do any private work

anyway. In many cases their surgeries are owned by the NHS, the

buildings are owned by the NHS and they are contracted to the NHS and

indeed in many places they are actually salaried GPs. And I tell

you what, salaried GPs tell me they prefer it that way. That has not

really answer the question. It's not an absolute on it because I want to

see an NHS that provides for all. You have to have discussions with

doctors about how they go about doing things. The dedication of the

junior doctors shows how desperate they are to save the NHS. A lot of

people would agree with you on that and economic ideas but are worried

about your ideas on defence. You want to be a minister -- you want to

have a minister on defence but also a piece minister. Would you be

sending a piece minister to Aleppo? Would they be talking to the

Russians? I'm totally engaged with trying to

bring about urgently a ceasefire. I recognise this recent ceasefire has

collapsed and that is tragic beyond belief. I would having gauged with

Geneva talks from the very beginning, engaged with Iran and

everybody from the beginning of this. The lessons of Iraq, the

lessons of Libya, Chilcot and a report on Libya indicate that we

haven't done things as well as we might, there has to be a political

engagement. There has to be an engagement which deals with the

issues at source, for a political solution. Mostly when I ask you a

sentence beginning, do you agree with Tony Blair, I know the answer?

But in this case, Tony Blair said this week and that he agrees that

the prosecutions and criminal prosecutions against British troops

in Iraq and Afghanistan are unfair and have put too much pressure on

people who are out there under difficult circumstances and he has

agree with David Cameron and Theresa May and others that they should be

stopped. I have spoken to a number of soldiers that have served in

Afghanistan and Iraq and I recognised the awful conditions they

were asked to serve under and the difficulties they had with that. But

I do think there has to be a recognition that we've signed up to

international law on the behaviour of troops and America go with the

same experience, as do other European countries even though they

are not signed up to the International crime caught, but so

there has to be an investigation. Saying not prosecute I think would

be a step too far. Talking about terra terrible things that happen in

war, I was discussing with Boris Johnson this attack on a UN aid

convoy, 20 innocent people were killed. Was that a war crime? It

sounds awfully like it to me. Terrible what happened there because

the aid convoy was there because there had been an agreement on it,

it was there because we were moving towards a ceasefire which would

bring about some relief to those people going through such a terrible

situation. It is unthinkable what they did. But there is also the

question of playing our part in trying to help the refugees from

Syria but not just leaving then in camps but trying to make sure we

click get a political settlement and don't leave people stuck in camps

for years on end. Do you think the defence budget should be higher or

lower than it is at the moment? I don't think it should be any higher,

I think it should be efficiently used but I don't think it should be

used when necessary that' it should be used when necessary. Defence

establishment can be quite helpful in that sort of area, the bowler

virus and others. Looking ahead, you said that you think the defence

budget should be lower, in the past. A lot of military people in this

country say we are simply not well prepared for any kind of future

threats in Russia or anywhere else and we need to spend more on

conventional forces like tanks and all the rest of it. I think the

issues of cyber security and terrorism and the issues that go

with that and random attacks, that is not necessarily the same thing as

having huge land-based defence forces. You have to look at it in

the terms of the political objectives you face or deal with all

around the world to try to bring about political solutions to what

looked like intractable problems. We've been through a period of

putting a lot of money and a lot of troops in a very dangerous place and

we have lost a lot of troops as a result of that. Do you support the

increasing size of MI6 at the moment? I don't think that's

necessarily particular necessary. I Amonde clear why they want to be so

much bigger. One final tax and spending question, you've talked

about paying to get rid of tuition fees by raising corporation tax.

Corporation tax is amongst the lowest of the OECD countries. Much

less than the US. We should go up to the 20% area it was at before. It is

20% now. Bring it down. OK. We have to recognise that we are well behind

the curve of most European countries on the way we treat our students in

higher and further education. The fact we have students in massive

debt. And the fact of the first time this year in many years the number

of working class students going to university is decreasing. We are

turning it into the direction of elite rather than the direction of

everybody. It is sad, wrong, and wasteful. We remember the overnight

phone calls with Hilary Benn. Would you like to see him back in your

Shadow Cabinet? He wants to become the chair of the select committee on

Brexit. Thanks for talking to us. Now for a look at what's coming up

after this programme. Should British troops be immune

from prosecution for serious Burkas on the beat -

should Muslim women police officers be allowed to wear

traditional dress? Double Olympic gold winner

Nicola Adams on why she intends And Deacon Blue

perform in the studio. There have been some problems over

our pictures, the live birds jumping up and down on wires or something.

Anyway, apologies for that. -- Liverbirds.

You can catch up with unfolding events here in Liverpool by joining

Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics at 11.

Join us next week at the Conservative conference

in Birmingham when my guests will include the Prime Minister,