08/01/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

So a new political year and good news.

We are, according to the Prime Minister,

But what does that mean for the crisis-hit NHS,

for education, taxes, the future of the UK itself?

We'll keep on scrabbling for answers.

On this morning's show, I've been talking to Nicola Sturgeon,

Scottish first Minister, who today issues a new challenge

to Theresa May about Brexit and a second vote to end the union.

Plus Cabinet Minister Justine Greening

responding for the Government on health

Following the shock resignation of Sir Ivan Rogers,

our man in Brussels, the arch Tory Remainer Ken Clarke

on whether the civil service is institutionally biased.

And in a show rather dominated by strong women,

actor Joanna Scanlan tells us about her leading role

in the hit show of the moment, Channel 4's No Offence,

the columnists Steve Richards and Julia Hartley-Brewer

and David Cameron's former communications director

Prime Minister Theresa May is promising to introduce

wide-ranging social reforms, to correct what she calls

the everyday injustices faced by ordinary working families.

In an article for the Sunday Telegraph, she says she wants

to build a shared society with a commitment to fairness.

The Prime Minister will make a speech on the subject

the first of a series of interventions on domestic policy.

Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has insisted

she is not bluffing about the prospect of a second Scottish

Ms Sturgeon told this programme that she was prepared

to call a fresh vote if the Government did not deliver

the right terms for Scotland in the Brexit negotiations.

if they think I'm in any way bluffing.

If it comes to the point, two years after Scotland being told,

"Don't leave the UK," here we are - we voted to stay in the EU,

and we were told voting no was the only way to stay,

that creates a much more fundamental question for Scotland.

And you can see more of that interview later in this programme.

The Israeli ambassador to the UK has apologised

after an embassy employee was secretly recorded

discussing a plan to bring down a government minister.

shows the official, Shai Masot, saying he would like to "take down"

the Foreign Office Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

Mr Masot said the MP was causing "a lot of problems".

it now considers the matter closed following the apology.

Labour is calling on the Prime Minister to approve a ?700 million

emergency cash injection to help the NHS through the winter.

The British Red Cross has warned of a humanitarian crisis

The Shadow Health Secretary Jonathan Ashworth said Mrs May

needed to ensure that this year's crisis never happened again.

An American war veteran has been charged over the shooting

at Fort Lauderdale Airport in Florida on Friday,

could face the death penalty if found guilty.

It's emerged that one of the victims,

a woman in her 80s, was born in Britain.

That's all from me, for now. Back to you, Andrew.

Now to the papers, and with me to review the papers

are Steve Richards, Sir Craig Oliver

The Observer, Theresa May urged to get a grip on the NHS as winter

crisis spirals, the story we have just been hearing about, as is often

the case with the Sunday papers. The Sunday Times, Theresa May's Rech

said rebels secretly met David Cameron, that is Ivan Rogers. --

Brexit rebel. Cracking story about the Israeli diplomat, talking about

taking down so Alan Duncan, and he also talks to Labour MPs, that will

be a story that runs and runs and runs. Finally, the Sunday Telegraph,

now it is the shared society, not the big society, which was David

Cameron's thing, saying that Theresa May is very different from David

Cameron, very different from Margaret Thatcher. It has an article

by her inside which we are going to talk about with Steve Richards, you

have gone to the article. Yes, for the Sunday Telegraph, and although

on one level people will think, what complete waffle to start the New

Year with another variation of a society theme, big society under

David Cameron, shared society under her, I think it is quite

interesting. This is about a fourth attempt, whenever she has got the

stage, to try and put the case partly for government in a way that

David Cameron did not do. So she specifically says in this article,

this is not about the Government, the state getting out of the way. Is

this a bigger government initiative? In a way that Labour leaders could

not do, to put the case to say that they could have a benevolent

potential. The rest of the news papers show the challenge of that,

but at the start of the year, when you get time to frame a message,

interesting that she puts that case. There was quite stinging when she

says that the big society is over. The reality of the big society was

that the volume on that got turned down a lot during his premiership,

as a result of dealing with the deficit. But Steve is absolutely

right, at the beginning of a new term, the Prime Minister wants to

set the agenda, say, this is what I want to talk about. Theresa May is

saying, I want to talk about the people who are just about managing,

just above the welfare thing. The reality is, if you look at the

editorial that goes with it, it is a stronger, fairer place - who could

disagree? The question for Theresa May is going to be, what are the

policies that the fine that. That is the question, what is behind this

glorious glossy verbiage to Michael Gove I think most British people

will sigh and turn it over and get over it all, the big society never

happened, it is not possible. They want a government that get out of

their way and enables them to live the life they want, does the

important stuff, like the NHS, and we will talk about the problems in

the NHS. Dealing with Brexit, housing crisis and NHS crisis, and

nothing else matters. There is a lot of hard work to be done, and of

course Theresa May, as the Economist has pointed out, is already under

fire for not giving the kind of decisive leadership that some in the

Tory party were looking for. Theresa May be, they are saying. We have got

them in both forms here, and the Economist is good at capturing the

political zeitgeist, they do it quite often on a front page which

frames the weight leaders are perceived, and this is to -- Theresa

Maybe, and they suggest that she's indecisive and a muddled. I am not

entirely sure whether that is fair in relation to Brexit, we will talk

about those stories in a moment. I kind of prefer the fact that she

doesn't say... Under David Cameron and Tony Blair, we would have a

point mark a plan to feed the media machine on Brexit, all of which

would be meaningless once we had triggered Article 50. In a way, the

lower profile at this point is more sensible, as long as she knows what

she's doing behind the scenes. There might be some doubt about that.

Craig, the meeting between Sir Ivan and your former boss, what was he

like from your point of view? There was a lot of argument about whether

he was basically too wrote Europhile, anti-Brexit, causing

problems for David Cameron during the famous negotiations, and was

causing problems for Theresa May before he went. When I was in

Downing Street, he had the affectionate nickname of Tin Hat,

because he used to send long e-mails which were quite dark, saying how

difficult things would be. Some people thought he was being as a

mystic, others thought he was being a hard-headed pragmatists, telling

people how it is. -- he was being pessimistic. That seems to be at the

core of the issue, if you read between the lines, he was suggesting

he was worried about this orderly Brexit, the idea that we crashed out

of the EU without a proper deal. -- about this this - disorderly Brexit.

Julia, you think there is a tranche of Eurocrats getting in a way at the

moment? The reality is that nobody would have got to the point of being

the British ambassador to the EU without being fully signed up to the

political project, and that is what we voted against. He was standing in

the way, he was seeing problems where there are opportunities. We

talk about hard Brexit, crashing out of the EU, what, like most countries

of the world, not being in a closed trading bloc? It is just a nonsense,

he is clearly unfit for the job. His e-mail resignation made him unfit

for the job, and he should be out of the civil service, goodbye, good

riddance. We will hear more of his side of the story from Ken Clarke

later. Let's move onto a big story, the Mail on Sunday comes from the Al

Jazeera interview, a London restaurant, with an Israeli

diplomat, there it is, let's take-down Boris's deputy. Why not?!

The first thing to say is that this is a classic piece of Simon Walters

mischiefmaking, he does it so well at the Mail on Sunday, comes up with

these scoops. It is extremely chilling, you are hearing a senior

diplomat saying that they want to take down a senior Foreign Minister,

somebody who works for a Conservative minister seems to be

colluding in it, but at another level it is almost semi comic. When

you read the exchange, the diplomat as saying, can I give you a list of

MPs that you want to take down? Ice think there is something they are

trying to hide. Later, the De Boer man says, a little scandal, don't

tell anyone about this meeting, who would tell? -- the diplomat says. It

looks like they have been watching too much of The House Of Cards, but

actually found themselves in The Thick Of It! There is a wonderful

message from the Israeli is he saying this does not represent the

views of the Israeli government! This does cross quite a lot of

lines, a dip and trying to destroy the reputation of a senior minister.

-- a diplomat. When the stories break, governments just want to shut

it down, it is embarrassing. They have apologised. In the old days,

the ambassador would have been kicked out of the country. Well, it

depends which country you are dealing with, and the realities of

dealing with Israel, it is embarrassing, for the Israelis and

for the Government, they just want to shut it down, but a great scoop

for the Mail on Sunday. The other big story of the weekend is the NHS,

Steve, you have got the Mail on Sunday there. Both the Observer is

splashing on it as well, and the Mail on Sunday is going quite big on

it, no-one, no single free bed in 15 hospitals. This is kind of connected

with Theresa May's shared society, if you are going to put the case for

government and people's contact with government is a shambolic NHS, that

is not going to ride. It is not going to work, is it? There is an

issue about funding, structure, and they found a few pennies for elderly

care at the end of last year, but very few pennies, just not enough,

they will have to find the money. Steve, you may be point that at the

beginning of the year the Prime Minister frames the debate, but we

also have, will there be an NHS crisis this year or not? It seems to

be shaping up to be a big one this time. Very hard for people watching

to really know, of course. Yeah, there could be one of those vivid

images that kind of transforms the whole story, in other words a

patient being photographed waiting 20 hours on a trolley or something.

Two people on trolleys, one of whom has died. This will be a real

concern for Downing Street, and what is interesting is that a former

health minister and practising GP, he is making a play on the front

page of the Observer for everyone to add knowledge that there is a

problem and discuss it sensibly. The crisis is really in social care, not

A, in overall funding, the non-joined up thinking. Hands up who

knew that the Red Cross was so involved in hospitals in this

country, using Red Cross ambulances? Absolutely not. They used this

phrase, humanitarian crisis. The reality is most countries have

better health services, but they spend a lot more money, a huge

amount more than we do, and we have to have a conversation where we talk

about that. The reality is that all the political parties except the NHS

is incredibly important and want to celebrate its values, but whoever

was in power, having an ageing population... And I think if you go

back to Theresa May and the shared society, if it does have any

meaning, part of that is our responsibility to look after our own

health as well. Ageing is a good thing, but getting fatter is also

going to rip apart the NHS. You are right to fix on the Red Cross quote,

because when Labour were in power, Robert Winston said his mum got

better treatment in Poland than in the English NHS, and that is when

Tony Blair came on this programme and said we will up the money to the

EU. It states a vivid quote to capture the scale of the crisis,

this might be it. -- it takes. Another place we are seeing a real

crisis is the rail industry. We have a tube strike starting tonight,

chaos in the south-east, but it will spread nationwide. There has been

some suspicion that this is actually orchestrated, this winter of

discontent and the unions all in cahoots on this. Some people have

spoken about having a winter of discontent. That's the idea. A

long-suffering rail user, but a lot of people think the solution is what

Jeremy Corbyn is offering, renationalisation with individual

contracts for rail companies. Either way, people are fed up of not being

able to get to work. It interesting talking about Brexit, the strikes,

that is the reality of this Government. Even though the trains

are privatised, the Government is answerable, as Chris Grayling is

discovering. I am going to Brighton tomorrow, I will be cycling! Getting

over some seasonal overweight! Solving lots of problems in one! And

now snowflakes... Yes, it used to be a phrase, snowflake generation. And

is it snowflake because you melt at the first sign of trouble. Yes, now

they are warning against snowflake University allowance. Because they

are ranked about what a lot of students rate them, there is concern

about not upsetting students and we don't upset them perhaps are we not

challenging them directly, but a lot of academics think we will be

shutting down free debate in universities and it will be the

students setting the agenda instead of the people who are supposed to be

teaching them. I think it is madness and actually a form of censorship.

Do we agree with this? I see silence from the other end of the sofa. It

is a little harsh on young people, I think. You see that all the time, I

don't like that so you cannot say it. It didn't happen in my day or

your day. There are things you cannot say... I would just like to

say to all the students watching, if you are offended by anything you

have heard, we are terribly, terribly sorry. No, we are not!

The new year has only just begun and, as we've heard,

already Brexit tensions are bubbling after the resignation

last week of the UK's ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers.

He's fiercely attacked in today's papers,

but his friends defend his description

of the Government's Brexit strategy as muddled.

One of those friends is the veteran Europhile Ken Clarke.

Welcome. The fundamental charge against a big tranche of our

diplomatic service is that they are, because of the way they have been

brought up and the languages they speak and so forth, they are

institutionally Europhile, institutionally hostile to Brexit,

they didn't give David Cameron the best shots he had at that

negotiation and now they are getting in the way with Theresa May. There

is a hard line call of Eurosceptics, not the generality of Eurosceptics,

but the real zealots in the House of Commons and in the press who just

turned to abuse of anybody who fatally seems to disagree with their

very hardline Brexit view, and a great establishment has a conspiracy

against them. This is nonsense. Ivan would have wanted to implement the

policy of the Government of the day, whatever party, whatever that policy

was, and Theresa May needs to address a more serious point of the

muddle that he spoke about and see if there is a more serious way for

government to get to a proper conclusion. To turn everything to

personal abuse as soon as anyone seems faintly to disagree with our

new zealots crusade to leave the continent of Europe is rather an

unfortunate feature of our post-Brexit politics, which I hope

we soon lose. You called it an opinion poll but it was a national

referendum which we did vote to leave and the question is whether

senior diplomats are up to making that happen, helping that happen.

And they are not enthusiast a cabal the project they are supposed to

lead. I do know Ivan quite well, he once worked for me when he was a

rising star in the Treasury. He was immediately damned amongst the

zealot Eurosceptics. He doesn't share my views and I think he's a

cautious pro-European but I don't know because like every civil

servant he kept his political views to himself. What a civil servant

wants is a clear policy guidance, that's the task of his political

masters, then he will, in an expert way, seek to help the Government

implement it. That means the policy you give on trade, economics,

security, international crime, environmental issues, is based on

fact, is actually deliverable, that the Minister understands what the

problems are going to be in delivering it and so on. And

honestly, Ivan has been frustrated because I suspect one or two of the

individuals he is having to deal with in the different departments

just give him slogans they were using during the campaign, but also

he's not quite sure whether the Government has faced up to the

business of having a policy in the real world. The referendum said we

leave the EU, it it didn't say what our new arrangement should be with

the outer world at all. Nevertheless we did vote that way and since that

has happened the economy has gone much better than you and the

remainder is suggested it was going to, and now we have a choice about

how we leave. Nicola Sturgeon has said today that if we are not

members of the single market she will trigger another referendum in

Scotland. Do you think it is conceivable that we would actually

stay in the single market? It would be a huge advantage to stay in the

single market. The actual campaign was dreadful, as reported in the

national media. The question of what our future trading relationships

should be was not addressed by either side in all of the silly

argument is that we used. I don't think any right of centre government

in the world would think the idea of leaving free access to a market of

500 million prosperous consumers was a sensible thing to do. All of our

forecasts turned out to be silly, but the fact is you are bound to be

poorer than you otherwise would be if you raise new trading barriers

between yourself and your biggest single market in the world, the most

open and free trading market in the world, of which at the moment you

are leading, a leading influential member. The referendum didn't decide

that and what's got to be decided is how to stay in the customs union,

how to stay in the single market, and still meet some of the

legitimate concerns we are expressing. This you say stay in the

customs union but if we do that we cannot negotiate our own new free

trade deals with other countries and frankly there is no point in this

grand new department being headed by Liam Fox. There is no point, Liam

has nothing to do even if we leave the customs union we won't do that

for the next two or three years, he has nothing to do for the next two

or three years. The customs union is the common market that we joined.

Eurosceptics say that is a good thing. It is absolutely pointless to

leave the customs union, so long as we can negotiate a basis on which we

stay in it. It is a huge advantage and the Government must have given

some reassurance to people like Nissan when they were trying to get

them to invest in the north-east on the customs union. Do you think

there is a plan? I don't think there was by Christmas. I haven't been in

the political pool since Christmas. Theresa May has announced she will

make a major speech at the end of this month, by that time she's got

to have a clear plan. I think she's quite right to have said nothing so

far. To start pandering to the press by giving bits of the policy was a

mistake she made and she has not repeated that. By the end of this

month she has got to have a clear government line, and actually just

have a look at who was responsible delivering it. Having three

different departments playing turf wars against each other and this

kind of thing is nonsense. She needs a good diplomat in charge like Tim

Barrow who she has now appointed in Brussels, and she needs to work with

David Davis on putting together the right pattern which reflects the

referendum, I regret that, I don't support that myself, I have not

changed my views, but actually has some real practical applications in

the real world, doesn't damage our investment and jobs. Ken Clarke,

thank you very much for joining us this morning.

It's a foggy outlook and chilly, hard to guess what's coming next.

Obviously, I'm not talking politics, but about the weather,

hovering delicately but wisely over the archipelago.

Thank you, good morning. We will exchange this grey and settled

weather this weekend for brighter but much colder weather by the end

of next week. It is really quite quiet today, the fog has been the

main concern. We've had freezing fog in parts of Yorkshire. Slightly

thinner cloud in Nottinghamshire so there will be a little brightness

around but on the whole for most of us it is a cloudy affair. The best

chance of brightness east of the Grampian mountains and parts of

north-east England and parts of Wales as well. It is relatively mild

and it will remain that way as we go through the night because you can

see the rain and wind gathering over Scotland, and some wet and windy

weather for Scotland and Northern Ireland during tomorrow's rush-hour.

We keep the hill fog and have a murky start to our Monday. Behind

the rain, there will be a temporary cold snap, temperatures will drop

over Scotland and Northern Ireland with wintry showers and blustery

winds but it is later in the week that we look at the bitter winds

coming down from the Arctic, bringing snow showers as well. We

will pin down the detail as we go through the week so stay tuned.

Of course you will, and we will. So Theresa May doesn't agree

with Margaret Thatcher's version of society, and she doesn't hold

with David Cameron's big society. We now live under a government

committed to the shared society - I'm joined by Mrs May's

Cabinet colleague and ally Is this more than glossy verbiage at

the beginning of the year? What does it mean? When Theresa May came into

office she said she wanted to make it a country for everyone, not just

the privileged few. She saying she wants to make sure our country has a

level playing field where it doesn't matter where you are growing up,

what your background is, and indeed tomorrow she will be talking about

mental health. Some of these burning injustices that people don't always

show visibly but nevertheless have to deal with day to day need to be

tackled with and what she's saying is that those issues are not going

to fix themselves and she wants hers to be a government that does get in

and try to sort them out for people. I cannot think of any leading

politician over the last 30 years who wouldn't agree with that. The

question is how this different from David Cameron's big society? The big

society was much more about getting civil society part of helping to

tackle many of the challenges Britain faces. I think what the

Prime Minister is talking about is the fact is we simply cannot accept

a country where you have a different chance of getting good education

outcomes because of where you grow up. We cannot accept a country where

if you are black you may have different chances of getting through

the justice system. We cannot accept a country where so many young people

don't have the prospect of owning their own home in spite of doing all

the right things, getting through university, working hard and getting

a job and saving. We cannot accept a country, as she will be setting out

tomorrow, where for the many people who suffer mental health there is

still in too many places inadequate treatment but also a stigma that

still goes along with that. I still don't see the difference between

this and what David Cameron was talking about. I think the

difference is the Prime Minister wants to set out how she feels the

Government can be more front foot is to tackle these issues. Give me a

really concrete example of what will change as a result of this. We have

already set out in my own area of education that we want more good

school places... I'm sorry but every government wants that. We've look at

introducing more grammar schools, bringing more proposals around

making sure our technical education system works for more than 50% of

our young people who don't go to university in a way that it

currently doesn't, and developing apprenticeships through the course

of this Parliament. Tomorrow she will be setting out the first of a

number of different areas, in this case mental-health, of where she

does want the Government to be more involved in making sure that people

get the kind of outcomes that they need to be successful. People can

make their own minds up but there is an element of this saying we are

going to build houses, that's the shared society, help people with

mental health, that's the shared society, basically rebranding. What

is it about the shared society that means we have the Red Cross talking

about a humanitarian disaster in the NHS, calls for an extra ?700 million

of emergency funding to get through the winter and a real problem in

hospitals across the country? In my previous role, I saw a number

of international crises, Typhoon Haiyan, Ebola, the Syria crisis, and

I do not think it is appropriate to describe the challenges that the NHS

faces this winter as a humanitarian crisis. So the Red Cross are wrong

about this? I do not think it is appropriate to describe it as a

humanitarian crisis. Coming back to your important question, we know the

challenges that the NHS base, whether in terms of a rising and

indeed ageing population, the fact that drugs cost more and can be used

for more things, and of course we also know that at this time of year,

in particular, there are additional pressures on the NHS. And they are

really severe this year... We need a long-term plan, which is what Simon

Stevens, the chief executive of the NHS, came through within 2015, we

were the only party to back that plan. Indeed, we have given the

money that was requested, we have brought it to be faster when it was

requested, and specifically in relation to winter, we have put in

?4 million of extra funding to particularly help with winter

pressures. The NHS is indeed better prepared than it has been in the

past. If you talk to any professionals, anywhere across the

NHS, they say, we are in crisis, our hospitals are full to bursting, we

are using the Red Cross to very people from hospitals in their land

Rovers, this is a really serious crisis, people are dying on hospital

trolleys. The NHS needs even more money this winter and the Prime

Minister should come to the House of Commons to discuss this with MPs.

More money has been made available, it is not unusual for the Red Cross,

and indeed for St John's Ambulance, they help the NHS every single day,

they do an amazing job. The fact that the Red Cross and organisations

like St John's are involved is not particularly unusual, we have put

aside additional money, and there is record investment going into the

NHS. We have this terribly sterile debate where politicians say we have

put in extra money, professionals on the front line say, we are in total

crisis, and the public scratches its head. At some point you will have to

give them more help. You talked about bed occupancy, and rates are

slightly lower at this point this year than last year. There is a

long-term challenge that the NHS faces, and this first plan is about

tackling the more underlying issues. There are, of course, challenges at

this time of year, which is why, alongside the funding I have talked

about, there is better planning in place... Do you think the doctors,

the professional bodies are simply crying wolf? No, NHS England has set

out that we do need to be prepared with the winter challenges we have

got, but overall we are dealing with those, and we will continue to make

sure that we work as a government with the NHS to do our best as the

winter progresses. I have been talking to Nicola Sturgeon, who says

that unless Britain stays in the single market, then Scotland will

have another independence referendum within just over two years or so,

and she is not bluffing and it will happen. The think there is any

chance of us at all staying in the single market? -- do you think. The

Prime Minister will be setting out more about our plans on how we exit

the European Union with a good deal for Britain. Ken Clarke said we need

a proper plan by the end of January, do you agree with that? The Prime

Minister is go to set out more of the details in her own time, she has

worked through, with her Cabinet colleagues, methodically, the many,

many areas that we need to have clear thinking in place for in

relation to getting a strong negotiating proposal and plan in

place to leave the EU. We are going to get on with that, she has been

clear that we will be triggering Article 52 by the end of March, but

it is right that we have taken the time to pull together what is going

to be one of the most complicated negotiations that any country could

have to embark on. Will we get an answer to the important questions

like, will we be in the single market, the customs union, by the

end of that period? I think the Prime Minister will take her own

decision on how much she wants to disclose of the planning that is

under way, but in the end, I think if you look back... It still feels

as if we are being told absolutely nothing at all. And months after the

referendum, look back at the challenges we faced within the EU.

Many of those go back right to the very beginning, 40 years ago, when

we went into the European Union, arguably an a deal that wasn't good

enough for us. And we were left with a legacy decades after. I think it

is quite right that we now take the time to make sure we know exactly

what the deal is that you want to try and get for our country, and

that we are well prepared to flexibly respond as the art of the

deal emerges once the negotiation is under way. Sowetan Nicola Sturgeon

says it would be catastrophic for Scotland and the UK to be outside

the single market, and if it happens, we will leave the UK, do

you think she is bluffing? It is pretty obvious to me that, in spite

of the referendum result in Scotland, the SNP simply want to

ignore that, they want to continue pushing the Scottish people against

the decision that they voted to stay as part of the UK. I think that is

wrong. So politically if that is because she wants to take, I do not

think it will be a sensible one. In the meantime, we need to make sure

that we have an approach on negotiating a fresh route for the UK

outside of the European Union. Whatever that might be. That is in

our national interest and can, critically, stand the test of time

and make sure we are successful not just today but in the future. Thank

you very much indeed. Joanna Scanlan has become

one of the best known As the unsinkable Terri

in The Thick of It, she was the perfect antidote

to Malcolm Tucker's brutal cynicism. she brought humour and heartbreak

to the NHS in Getting On. Her latest role sees

her showing a new side. Channel 4's award-winning series

No Offence has Scanlan as a gutsy

police detective in a very contemporary

new take on the TV cop. Inspector, may we speak

in your office? Sorry?

Here is good. Well, in the past we had the rack,

and now we have the press. and now I'm invited upstairs

to explain recent events. Yes, I'm aware of that, as are they,

and the Home Office, and the Department for Communities

and Local Government. They know what they

call you upstairs? Because everything

is a trial with you. It is beautifully written, Joanna,

this is a very interesting series, one of many now, coming from the

north, or set in the north, with very strong women in charge, I am

thinking of Happy Valley and now this, something changing in British

TV drama at the moment. What makes this different, I think, is that it

goes right to the edge of what is seemingly unacceptable. It really

does! That is unusual, I think. I know that is Channel 4's remit, but

they really go there in this show. The fact that most of us working

with female bosses, one way or the other, we are looking at a

matriarchal management, and the ways in which power gets disseminated by

women, and that is traditional in the north. It is an interesting

picture of contemporary Britain, because almost all the key

characters are women, almost all the strong characters are women. A few

men dotted around the edges, but very much female dominated, and he

would say the same about Happy Valley and so forth. Is this an

attempt to show a new written, that men, including shows like this, and

taking a back-seat?! It is a reality! There is an element in

which we reflect reality, women any workplace, I mean, when we wrote

Getting On, for example, we set it in a hospital not particularly

because we wanted to talk about the NHS, but we wanted to talk about

women, putting them in the workplace, and not the domestic

sphere. That changes everything. It gives the actor and the writer a

chance to look at how women deal differently, perhaps with power. The

other character you are very well known for is Terri in The Thick Of

It, where you have to deal with Malcolm Tucker all the time. We were

just talking about Sir Ivan Rogers and the civil service, were you

aware that you are dealing with a character who was meant to be

apolitical? Is there anything we can learn from that? Terri was appointed

into the civil service as part of what was a Blairite move to bring

people from the commercial sector, so she had been head of marketing at

Waitrose. Now, whether that served well or ill, I think the audience

can say. We have a brief clip of it. You didn't even send that e-mail,

it was still in drafts, OK? Then, secondly,

it was you that told me, "Don't make that big

attack on the BBC." And I'm afraid we did look silly,

running around outside, I mean, I know Steve

Fleming has come back on the scene, are you feeling

emasculated by that? It's like you're

a Catherine wheel that fell off the stick,

but not in the right way! I think you're wrong, Malcolm.

You're like a sultana in a salad. Again, it is all down to beautiful,

beautiful writing. Now, I did read that when it came to No Offence, you

turned the role down, and I can't see why, since you seem to be

enjoying it so much. I have to say that I did not turn it down as an

offer but as an audition. My agent kept saying, I think you should have

a look at this. And I thought, I could not see myself in it, I

thought the character was the most, as you just saw a little bit of, she

is very powerful, very sort of strong. And I often played, before

that, I was often playing characters that came up from underneath, Terri

is a good example. And I just couldn't see how you could claim it.

To be the top dog, as it were. You do it beautifully, it is really

interesting, thank you for joining us.

is on Channel 4 this Wednesday at 9pm.

Now for news of what's coming up after this programme.

I'm sorry, I came out too early! Join us at ten, when we will be

asking, do some people earn too much? And with more strikes

scheduled for this week, should industrial action only target the

employers, not the customers? And if you could find three wise men today,

would they still believe in God? While I still have you here, Nicola

Sturgeon is my next guest, we are looking at a country which has women

running Westminster, Scotland and elsewhere, DUP or, as an actor, that

you are in a good place at the right time. -- do you feel. I am lucky, I

started acting very late, 35 before I did my first professional job. And

lots of ideas for shows before you got one accepted. I had written lots

of things that went nowhere. 17 years of me hammering away at the

typewriter before anybody said yes. And I think, you know, in theory,

between 35 and 40, that would have been my career, and I am so lucky

that the world has caught up with me, as it were. Long may it

continue, Joanna! The First Minister of

Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has a difficult balancing act

to pull off. to keep Scotland in the single

market after Brexit and continuing to pursue the SNP's

ultimate goal of independence from the rest of

the UK, which many in London now believe

is all but impossible. First Minister, six months ago,

sitting more or less right here, you were talking to Theresa May,

and it seemed a very cordial first meeting

after she became Prime Minister. I wondered, what's happened

since then between the two of you? Well, we spoke on a few more

occasions, met once more, I think, I have to say, though,

to be perfectly frank, I don't feel that I know any more

about her negotiating objectives today than I did six months ago,

and probably what's more worrying than that, I'm not sure

that she knows more about her negotiating objectives than she did

back then as well, and I think the closer we get to

the triggering of Article 50. Do you seriously think

there is no plan? Yes, I do, and I say that with a lot

of regret because that puts every part of the UK, I think,

into a very powerless position. We saw last week, with

the resignation of Sir Ivan Rogers, that he didn't know what the plan

was, and he was supposedly the man who would lead the negotiations

to try to achieve that plan. Now my worry is that Theresa May,

instead of behaving like a Prime Minister should,

is putting the leadership of her own deeply divided party

ahead of her responsibilities as Prime Minister and trying

to appease the increasingly right-wing Brexiteers

in her own party, instead of prioritising what would be

a sensible solution for the UK to stay in the single market,

for example, and I think the interests of the country

over these next few months At that meeting, she seemed

to agree that Scotland, as Wales and Northern Ireland,

would be part of the process of debating how we were

going to leave the EU. Do you feel that simply

hasn't happened? You know, there have

been discussions. I took part, with the first

ministers of Wales the Deputy First Minister

of Northern Ireland, in Downing Street,

I think in October, at a meeting

of the joint ministerial committee. And I'm not exaggerating too much,

I'm paraphrasing slightly, I admit, but I'm not exaggerating too much

when I say that the Prime Minister sat on the other side of the table

at that meeting and said, "Brexit means Brexit" and not

an awful lot more than that, and I came out of that meeting

probably more frustrated after a meeting of that nature

than I've ever been before. Now, the reason for that is I'm

the First Minister of Scotland and you know, put aside,

although we shouldn't put aside the fact that Scotland voted

to remain in the European Union. If the UK is coming out

of the European Union, that has enormous implications

for Scotland, as it does It has enormous implications

for our economy, for jobs, for living standards,

for trade, investment, for the kind of society we are,

and I want to play my part in making sure we get the right

outcome from that. That's why the Scottish Government

has published proposals that we hope are taken seriously,

but thus far, almost two thirds of the wait

of the triggering of Article 50, we now no more about the UK

Government's position than we did the day after the referendum

and that is increasingly In those proposals, you've

made it very clear that what you mean by a soft Brexit,

an acceptable Brexit, involves staying inside the single market and

staying inside the customs union. The problem is that people were told

all the way through the referendum that leaving the EU meant

leaving those things. I interviewed David Cameron,

George Osborne, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, I asked all of them

and they all said, yes, I remember hearing, I could be

proved wrong but I think Boris Johnson saying the only good

thing about the European Union was what he called the Common

Market, the single market, and leaving the EU didn't mean

leaving the single market. But what I'm trying to do,

and I've deliberately tried to take a step back from my preferred

position which is the UK as a whole stays in the EU, and say, look,

we've got the situation where the UK Different parts of the UK

voted in different ways, Scotland voted to remain,

even in Scotland a million people voted to leave,

and although the UK as a whole voted to leave, almost half

voted to remain so can That's why I think staying

in the single market could be that consensus ground,

but more importantly it would avoid some of the deep damage

to our economy and our society that The problem with staying

in the single market is that means no control over migration

from the EU and it means carrying on paying into the single market,

and that would be seen by a lot Let's break down these issues

because the paper I've published on behalf of the Scottish Government

just before Christmas goes Theresa May has said that a number

of things are red lines, so not being subject to the jurisdiction

of the ECJ. Well if you are, like Norway is,

in the single market but not in the EU, then you are not subject

to the direct jurisdiction of the ECJ, it is the EFTA

Court that applies. I'm trying to see where she could,

and this is about compromise... This is not my preferred solution

so I recognise that it may not be her preferred solution but can

we find compromised ground? I think we need to get

away from the situation, and I make no apology for saying

this, where this obsession with immigration, almost becoming

an obsession with foreigners in this country, is trumping,

if that's not the wrong word to use in these times,

the best interest in the economy so I think we need a much more

honest debate about the benefits I just put it to you,

given the politics in London, it is very, very unlikely that

Theresa May will say we are going to stay in the single

market or the customs union. That compromise is probably unlikely

and you yourself have said indy ref What I'm doing is trying

to explore common ground, OK? I've said I think the UK should stay

in the single market and I want to work with others

across the UK, across the political spectrum to see if we can achieve

that as the objective of the UK. If that can't happen,

then recognising Scotland voted to stay in the EU by a significant

majority, can we find a way of allowing Scotland to stay

in the single market? But that surely is

practically impossible? We, again, the paper we published

sets out the practical barriers but also sets out the basis

on which those practical So the paper you've published says,

for instance, for that to happen, for Scotland to stay

inside the single market while the rest of the UK is not

would require the repatriation of important powers

to the Scottish Parliament. Including immigration,

but how was it possible for one part of the UK to have one immigration

policy and England to have We had a group of MPs just the other

day saying that we should move away from a one-size-fits-all immigration

policy across the UK. You've got the Mayor

of London arguing that London should have greater

flexibility with immigration. You've got countries like Canada

and Australia that already operate Scotland used to have a situation

where we had a differential situation around post-study

work arrangements. What I'm saying, and this

is an important point, Andrew, everything about Brexit

is going to be complicated I'm not denying the solution I'm

putting forward would be complicated and difficult,

but there are ways to overcome these difficulties because

the alternative for Scotland... Let me just ask you about one way

because if the people of England have just voted to "Take control

over immigration from the EU" and Scotland has an open border

to the rest of the EU in terms of migration, how can

you possibly not have a border Otherwise people would just

move down into England. The paper goes into this in some

detail because firstly, and I will come onto that

in the detail of it in a second, but let's not forget we have got

a UK Government right now that is at pains to say

to the Republic of Ireland, an independent country

that is going to continue to be in the EU, that it doesn't have

to choose between trading with the EU and trading with the UK,

that it doesn't have to be a hard So if that is true for Ireland,

there's no reason why that wouldn't But if you take the issue of free

movement for example, people would continue

to get their passports checked as they come into the UK

at the external UK border and if the concern, as I appreciate,

would they go to England and other parts of the UK

and seek to work there, Theresa May is already talking

about the arrangements that she's going to put in place in terms

of employment checks and suchlike. There are practical ways

of overcoming these things, but if we are going to get

into the practical discussion about how these things can be

overcome, we first have to have a UK Government that is going to meet

the Scottish Government halfway I'm compromising, I'm

prepared to compromise. I need to have a UK Government

that is prepared to do likewise. This is a compromise which gives

you, in effect, independence. The proposal we put forward wouldn't

make Scotland independent. Yes, it would have significant

additional powers for Scotland. I have to say, around some of these

additional powers notwithstanding whether there would be a different

single market solution for Scotland, there is already growing cross-party

support that in the post-Brexit landscape there needs

to be a fundamental look I think some of those arguments

apply regardless of the position There is a fundamental question that

arises here for Scotland. I lead a party that many

of whom would want an independence I'm trying to act as

First Minister to say but if we are in a position

where I'm doing that but we have a Prime Minister

of the UK Government that is saying no compromise, Scotland

just have to, you know, shut up and like it or lump it,

then the question for Scotland, and it's a much more fundamental

question than the EU or Brexit, Are we happy to have no voice

in the UK, to simply have to accept the direction of travel that

an increasingly right-wing UK What do you say to those

people across the UK who voted to leave the EU,

who listen to you now and say, "she's just a wrecker,

she's trying to overturn the Democratic vote

of the entire UK"? Well, I'm not trying to do that

but I would ask people to equally understand that I'm

the First Minister of Scotland, Scotland is a country that is part

of the UK right now but we voted to remain and I've got a duty,

particularly given that this is not some academic debate,

this is a debate that has real implications for jobs and living

standards of people the length I've got an obligation to protect

Scotland's interests and that's So I'm compromising,

but at the end of the day while Scotland is driven over hard

Brexit cliff edge with all the implications for jobs

and the type of country we are You have said that if you get what's

been called a soft Brexit, staying inside the single market,

then a second independence referendum is off

the agenda for a while. Let me explain exactly

what I'm saying. The argument for independence

doesn't go away in The argument for independence is

much bigger than the European Union. What I've said, though,

and I said this in this very room the day after the referendum,

that I would seek to find ways within the UK, recognising

the diversity of opinion on independence within Scotland,

to seek to protect Scotland's If we can do that, the independence

argument doesn't go away, but we don't need to have that

decision within the Are we talking about

this parliament? No independence referendum during

the course of this Parliament? You're asking me what the timescale

on Brexit is, I can't My assumption is that from the point

at which Article 50 is triggered, we have a two-year period

after which the UK is That may change,

because I don't know So a soft Brexit means no

independence referendum over In the timescale of Brexit, but I

have tried from the 24th of June onwards to take a logical

path through this. And, you know, at the moment

we are the only government in the whole of the UK that

has put forward a plan, Now, if that is going to get any

legs behind it, it needs to have a UK Government

that is willing to talk to us. Because if what I encounter

with the Prime Minister the next time we sit in this room is,

I'm not interested, then Scotland is in that position of, you know,

we were told we were an equal partner in the UK, but the reality

is very, very different. Well here is where we come down

to the hard politics, because it seems to me that the view

in London is that Nicola Sturgeon is trying to call our bluff,

and we can call her bluff - she cannot win an independence

referendum in Scotland because of the economics,

because of the border issue, Well, they will be making a big

mistake if they think that I'm in any way bluffing,

because if it comes to the point, you know, two years after Scotland

being told, the quote in the independence referendum was,

Scotland, don't leave Here we are, we voted to stay

in the EU, we were told that voting no was the only way we could stay

in the EU, and we now face That creates a much more fundamental

question for Scotland. On something as fundamentally

important as membership of the EU and the single market, all

the implications that has for us, if our voices are going to be

completely cast aside, our interests cast aside,

then that can happen on anything, and we have to ask ourselves

in Scotland, are we happy to have the direction

of our country, the kind of country that we want to be,

determined by a right-wing Conservative government,

perhaps for the next 20 years, or do we want to take

control of our own future? And that is a case that,

in those circumstances, I think it would be right

for Scotland to have But we are not looking at indyref2,

as it is called, in ten years' time Yes, if we are talking

about hard Brexit. But let me not get away from this

point, I am putting to Theresa May Theresa May is watching,

one message to her very clearly, Don't disregard Scotland,

because it's not acceptable to do so, you said during the independence

referendum that Scotland was an equal partner in the UK -

it's now time to prove that, and how you respond to the sensible

compromise consensus proposals that the Scottish Government has put

forward will tell as much, possibly everything we need to know,

about whether Scotland really is an equal partner

or whether that is just rhetoric. Nicola Sturgeon,

thank you very much. That's all for today,

thanks to all my guests. Next Sunday I'll be joined

by the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, and the actor Timothy Spall.

Bye for now.