15/01/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

There's talk of an NHS crisis absolutely everywhere.

Theresa May is set to confirm we'll be out

of the European Single Market - a move that will appall

You might have thought the opposition would be riding high.

Instead, Labour's had yet another - yet another - terrible week.

Is time running out for Jeremy Corbyn?

The Labour leader, fresh from his most radical speech yet,

is here to explain how his anti-establishment politics

will revive his party's flagging fortunes.

Could Northern Ireland's political meltdown throw Theresa May's plans

I'll ask the Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire.

And, as arguments rage about post-truth politics,

Timothy Spall will be here to talk about his new film - an epic battle

The reason you don't engage with people you

And you might learn some facts, facts which don't suit your

Joining me on the sofa this morning Ayesha Hazarika,

a former Labour adviser turned stand-up comedian, Paul Waugh,

political editor of Huffington Post UK, and Esther McVey,

a former Tory MP and a Leave campaigner in the EU referendum,

That's all after the news, read for us this morning

The Prime Minister Theresa May is to call for an end

to the division stirred by last year's EU referendum,

when she reveals her most detailed plan yet on how the Government

will approach its Brexit negotiations.

In a speech this week to ambassadors, she'll outline

a commitment to building a Britain more open to the rest of the world.

Reports suggest that she will set out plans

for a so-called "hard Brexit" - pulling out of the single market

and the customs union in order to regain control of immigration.

Air passengers arriving in Britain could face "severe

disruption" after Brexit, unless there's an increase

in Border Force staff, according to the Airport Operators

The group says passport checks for EU nationals are likely

to become more stringent, causing an increase in queues

Here's our home affairs correspondent, Danny Shaw.

There are record numbers of travellers at Britain's airports.

In 2015, there were 251 million passenger journeys.

It's thought last year's figure was even higher.

But there's concern that growth in air traffic hasn't been matched

by an increase in resources for Border Force,

which is responsible for immigration and customs checks.

The Airport Operators Association says that's led to longer

queues at passport desks, and it's concerned

At present, EU travellers use separate channels

They tend to be quicker than for passengers

But after Brexit, if people from overseas all screened

in the same way, the association says overall waiting

The Home Office says it will be wrong to set out details of how

future immigration controls might work in advance of negotiations

with the EU, but the department says Border Force has the capacity

to meet passenger demand and maintain security.

The US president-elect, donald trump, has hit back at criticism

from the respected civil rights campaigner, John Lewis.

Mr Lewis, a Democrat Congressman, said he did not consider Mr Trump

a legitimate president and would not attend his inauguration.

Other Democrat politicians are expected to boycott the event.

Donald Trump responded with a tweet, dismissing Mr Lewis as "all

A committee of MPs is to hold an inquiry into the planned

multi-billion pound restoration of the Palace of Westminster.

A report last year recommended that both MPs and peers move out

of the buildings for several years while work is carried out -

But the Treasury Select Committee is to examine whether the move

is necessary and whether the plan offers value for money.

A major international conference to try to kick-start

the Middle East peace process is being held in Paris.

Delegates from 70 countries, including Britain, are expected

to reaffirm support for a two-state solution to the

Palestinians have welcomed the meeting, but Israel

I said earlier that the NHS crisis was all over the papers, so let me

demonstrate. The Sunday Mirror. A picture of a little girl sitting on

the floor of her award. The Mail on Sunday suggests cutting foreign aid

to fund the NHS better. And the Observer - health service in crisis

as cancer operations are cancelled. The Sunday Times has gone with a

trump- Putin summit. They also say that Theresa May is going to

announce on Wednesday that we're unlikely to leave customs union and

the single market. The Sunday Telegraph gambles on what they call

eight clean Brexit. People always say it is clean, hard, soft, brutal,

whatever. Let's start with Brexit. I think the interesting thing about

the Sunday Times front page is that it captures how much hardball

Theresa May will play next week when she makes this speech on Brexit. It

is unusual to our politicians talking about the pound, but here we

have Downing Street rethink that there could be a market correction.

What might be pound going down? Yes. They are also talking about a

transitional deal. If it proves necessary, we have said we will

consider time for implementation of new arrangements, which shows it is

not about hard or soft Brexit, but more about quick or slow. A bit

harder on the bit slower seems to be the message. Ayesha, Theresa May has

said all the way through that we have to have control back over

immigration, which means leaving the single market, which is no surprise.

If she wasn't going to leave the customs union, she would not have

set up an entire department for international trade duties. It is no

surprise, but still quite a moment. I think she has made her position

clear, leaning towards favouring immigration control over membership

of the single market. We talked about the adjectives people use. I

think that was the signal the country gave, and that is why she is

going with it. Don't forget what Philip Hammond said - people didn't

vote for Brexit to be worse off. I hope that we will not have a broke

Brexit Ouray breadline Brexit at the end of this. Their race and

interesting story in a German Sunday newspaper in which Philip Hammond is

quoted saying that if we don't get the market access we want, we can

have a different economic model, by which he seems to mean slashing

corporation tax and having a low tax island outside the continental

system. That's the threat. There could be a cliff edge and a real

problem. When Theresa May sneezes about hard Brexit, the markets catch

a cold, so we will see what the reaction is on Tuesday. What might

you have chosen the Sunday express. Yes, made's battleplan. It is living

up to the expectations and votes of the British public, who said there

was no hard, soft Brexit, just Brexit. These I get so -- these

adjectives have been brought about by people who wanted to remain.

People wanted control over the law as well. What she is doing is she is

delivering as best she can the best deal for the UK. Interestingly, the

EU don't recognise the term single market. It's known as the internal

market. That in itself says that if we are not an internal part of the

system, we won't be part of the single market. We are looking from

no tariffs, their best deal for the UK, and to live up to what all those

millions of people came out and said we want for the UK. And yet, in

terms of what people really voted for, there is an opinion poll that

suggests if people think they will be worse off, they don't want to

leave. People want everything - to be richer and outside. A lot of it

has been recalibrated and blown away. The chief economist for the

Bank of England said that we have had the Michael Fish moment. We have

seen the FTSE 100 going up, employment going up, the fact that

growth was still the best in the G7. The doomsday scenarios are not the

case. Yes, there will be an adjustment. Yes, we know that the

pound might have to stabilise, or whatever terms seem best. We know

there will be a recalibration, but it will be positive for the UK in

the end because we are an international country and we have to

look to the world. We hope it will be positive, and we have to make it

work the best we can. In the same way that you would say to Remainers,

accept the result, I think it is acceptable for the other side to

understand that people do have anxieties about the prospects for

the country. It is not a bad thing to worry. Ayesha, you chose the

Observer. Kia Starmer. He wants particular conditions to be met. He

wants guarantees given before Article 50 negotiations begin, and

certainty for the 2.5 million EU citizens who currently reside in the

UK. The Labour Party has also got to get its act together in terms of

Brexit and what our position is. Brexit is happening. Immigration is

a really important part of the story, and I think we need some

clarity from the Labour Party about their position on freedom of

movement. Well, thank you for that. We will move onto one of the

constituencies which voted 70% to leave EU, Stoke-on-Trent Central,

losing its MP, Tristram Hunt. He is leaving to be director of the B and

day, a very prestigious job at which he will do well, I'm sure. -- the

Victoria and Albert Museum. They face a second difficult by-election

in their heartland territories. This has to be a headache for Labour,

particularly the Corbynista Labour. There are two by-elections here, two

moderate Labour MPs leaving, but as I look at this strategically, on a

bigger picture, moderate Labour have never known how they will seize back

control of their party as they see it. They tried a leadership bid and

it didn't happen. Jeremy Corbyn was voted back with a greater amount.

What you will see is, one by one, these moderate Labour MPs will say,

we might not survive because boundary changes or deselection

could have got rid of Tristram Hunt. This is a form of destabilisation.

Bit by bit. You could say, on the other hand, that Ukip and the Tories

are almost second equal behind Labour. It is an interesting

question for the Tory - do they fight hard and help Labour by

keeping Ukip down, or do they stand back and let you could try to win?

Ukip came second in this seat, anyway. It is interesting in this

article that a lot of people there who are Labour voters, strong labour

area, did not vote enthusiastically at all for Labour in 2015. Only a

49.9% turnout. They said they just didn't want to vote for the Tories.

He has been described as the least popular MP in the House of Commons

on the basis of the number of people who actually voted for him. I would

have Ukip in second place, who would be the main threat here. Paul not

all, the leader, I think it would be a good seat for him to go for. That

would be a heck of a story if he took it. If I was Paul Nuttall, that

is a seat I would be going for, where I would put all my ammunition.

That could be a possible winner and a terrible loss for Labour. You said

just now that this could happen again and again, and Paul, you have

a story in the Sunday Times suggesting the same thing, albeit a

bit thin on detail. MPs are ready to free Corbyn. -- to flee Corbyn.

There may be a maximum of two you are ready to walk. What is

interesting is, Jeremy Corbyn is going to address the Parliamentary

Labour Party tomorrow night to start of the New Year, his new message,

and it will be interesting to see the mood. A year ago, Monday night

was fight night. Labour MPs were always having a pop at Jeremy

Corbyn. The mood has changed. And don't forget, Tristram Hunt and

Jamie Reid, who have both decided to leave Westminster, have left on good

terms. They are not having a pop at Jeremy Corbyn. Why? They don't want

to be blamed for the poor state of -- poor state of the party in the

polls. Ayesha, the other big story of the day - the NHS, absolutely

everywhere. Is this a real crisis? We read the stuff week after week,

month after month. I think it is a crisis, there is a

very powerful picture on the Sunday Mirror of a girl who has been lying

on the floor for eight hours. On the inside pages we have Jonathan

Ashridge, the Labour health spokesperson saying there is a

crisis and the Prime Minister is denying it. The health service is

always stretched, no matter how much money you put into it there is

always issues, but there are some things we have to look at. We have

got a massive problem, we need more funding in the NHS. But the question

is how and the Mail on Sunday suggests taking money from the

foreign aid budget, but there's an interesting poll that the

independence carried out suggesting that if... I will let you tell. Luck

there is bad news and good news for the Labour Party, Theresa May and

Tories will do a better job than Labour with the NHS this winter.

More people think Theresa May can handle the winter crisis better than

Labour. Given that Labour but all their political chips on this

agenda, that is a blow. For to 7% agree with the Red Cross that there

is a humanitarian crisis but opposition is about coming up...

The majority of people say that if we had an extra tax specifically for

the NHS, they would pay more tax to save the NHS. I think different

people have said they choose for it to be paid for in different ways but

what you have seen is that the budget has gone up from

100,000,000,020 ten, now 116, will go up to 129 billion by 2020 so how

are we best to pay for this? Is it going to be because people are

realistic, they know there's only a certain amount of money in the

budget, and is going to now come from foreign because we all believe

we have got to see a better service. I will be talking about this with

Jeremy Corbyn in the moment. I want to talk about your Trump story

before we finish. Trump has gone to war with a man called John Lewis, a

very prominent black activist in America who has said I don't think

she is fit to be president and has really attacked him. As we look

ahead to the inauguration, we are all agog to see it but we mustn't

underestimate how worried people are in America about the clock being

turned back on things like racial inequality, civil Liberties, human

rights, women's rights, so that is something that people are very

worried about. I really hope that he doesn't... You know, he is a man

with a big ego and a very thin skin and I hope... Interesting report.

There is a lot more about Donald Trump in the Spy and the rest of the

papers. Well, a little snow on the ground -

mere spits and spats in London - proper old-fashioned

snow further north. Is there any possibility that we're

going to see the really serious weather that has

plagued the continent? No is the long and short of it, it

will be mild across the country and we've been using a lot of

alliteration to describe the weather, dull, damp and drizzly, and

this picture is fairly indicative of what's going on across the country.

Outbreaks of showery rain, and even when that's clears away it will stay

dull and drizzly for many. Double digit out to the west but it stays

cold in east Anglia, and that could lead to some frost and patchy fog

here through the night, but we do it all again elsewhere. More cloud,

another weather front bringing in some more rain. That will continue

to drift steadily eastwards. The temperature is not falling far at

all in the west, 7 degrees is the minimum, still chilly in East Anglia

and bad weather front sits through the spine of the country tomorrow

with outbreaks of drizzly rain. Sandwiched either side, some

brighter weather, wet weather into the extreme north-west. But look at

the temperatures again, so the weather again, unlike your

programme, Andrew, is looking a bit dreary.

That's very kind of you and I see Northern Ireland is relatively

bright and dried, which is lovely because there is another crisis

there. The Northern Ireland Assembly

is on the edge of collapse after the resignation last week

of the Deputy First Minister, Time is running out before

the Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire, must call

an emergency snap election, but that means Northern Ireland

might lose its voice during the crucial Brexit period,

and that might even be illegal. Let's go through this, one by one.

You have a legal obligation if the Sinn Fein people don't put up a new

Deputy First Minister, you call an election, don't you? That's right,

last week Martin McGuinness resigned as Deputy First Minister and that

means if the replacement is not put in place by five o'clock tomorrow

evening, it is incumbent upon me as Secretary of State to call an

election within a reasonable period of time. What we are seeking to do

is work with the parties to see if we can bring them together to avoid

that from taking place. At the moment there is no indication

another replacement will be offered. You are going over there, you have

until five o'clock tomorrow, do you wait until then to call an election?

Sinn Fein have indicated they are not intending to put a replacement

forward. We've been discussing, and I've had extensive discussions with

all of the parties over the last few days, and going straight back to

Belfast after this programme to continue those discussions. But the

clear indications, the increasing likelihood is that we are moving

towards an election. Obviously I will be considering the position at

that point in time. My statutory responsibility is to call an

election but that means there has to be an election campaign of 25

working days for the campaign itself. So unless you delay it for a

very long time, this will carry on right the way through the period

when we were supposed to be discussing Brexit and that means

there will be no Northern Ireland voice in those discussions, which

according to the court case in London might even be illegal. It's

important to understand there's already been discussions with the

Northern Ireland executive, we have a joint ministerial committee. The

work I've been doing, reaching out to communities and business in

Northern Ireland, but we still have ministers in place as well. No First

Minister, no Deputy First Minister, it is very hard for Northern Ireland

to give its voice properly and this is the crucial point of the Brexit

period coming up. This is when they need to be engaged. I think they

have been engaged and we will continue to invite the executive.

Ministers stay in place and we have structures that ensure people are

invited so that will continue, and indeed the work I do as Secretary of

State in talking to all of the different players and partners in

Northern Ireland, getting their feedback. That has given us already

a good indication as to the issues that really matter and how we are

determined to get the best possible outcome. Theresa May made it very

clear that Northern Ireland, like Scotland, must be engaged in these

negotiations at the critical period. If Northern Ireland is in the middle

of a general election throughout that period, they cannot be properly

engaged, can they? We have had that engagement and we will continue to

take those steps. We are not delaying the timetable, we remain

committed to triggering Article 50 by no later than the end of March

and nothing changes that. We will continue to work, and my engagement

is about bringing people together, bringing the parties together to

ensure there is in that sense of division appearing. This is a

complex crisis but if after the election there is no resolution, the

parties still can't work together, what happens next? I'm not thinking

about that. My absolute focus is on how we bring the parties together.

You are right, there is a relatively short period of time after the

election, it is about three weeks but we have to soon as it -- to seek

an executive being formed. The simple alternative would be to call

another election but I'm focused on maintaining the institutions. This

is really significant, it is important we are working together to

see people are focused on the great opportunities for Northern Ireland,

the real benefit icy day in and day out and how we need to make sure

there is good communication that continues. But as I say, the reality

is that we are moving towards an election, and how we continue to see

people are focused and make sure communication is maintained. If that

election produces another failed results, is there any possibility

the British government would look towards a joint authority with the

Irish government over Northern Ireland? To be absolutely straight,

I'm not contemplating alternatives to devolved government in Northern

Ireland. Really? Given that it might happen very soon? My responsibility

is to see that we are working with each of the parties, that we're not

looking at greater division. My concern is that an election campaign

will be divisive and lead to greater distance between the parties at the

end that. It is that work therefore that I'm doing and will continue to

do. I would really encourage the parties themselves to think about

these big issues on how they conduct that campaign and how we are able to

build things back together once it is concluded. We have been talking

about what kind of country we will be after Brexit this morning and

Northern Ireland is very much part of that country. There's been a

suggestion from Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, that if we are forced

out of access from the European markets we could slash corporation

tax and become very different kind of economy, is that something you

recognise? In Northern Ireland we have said we would like to see the

devolution of corporation tax, and the executive has indicated it would

like to see a marrying of corporation tax rates across

Northern island of 12.5%. We have contemplated how you devolve

corporation tax and benefits, but I wouldn't want to speculate more

broadly. We could be a more free trading, lower corporation tax

economy. The Prime Minister has always been clear that she wants the

UK to be an open, outward looking trading nation. That is that

positive view that we have for the UK moving forward and how best to

achieve that, and obviously ensuring UK companies continue to have the

best access to the ability to trade and operate within the European

Union. But when you read this morning that the UK will be outside

the single market and outside the customs union, you are not surprised

by that, are you? I'm not going to speculate about what the Prime

Minister will say on Tuesday. But what she has been clear about is

that we are leaving the European Union. That is how we then negotiate

and look at our future. It is that open approach, that global Britain

message she will be giving on Tuesday as to how we set that

forward. How can we possibly stay inside the single market and control

migration? We can't. I don't see this as a binary choice. We have a

very clear approach in seeking to achieve that open approach for

business but also that very stark message that I do take, that the

Government takes from the EU referendum that free movement as it

exists today cannot continue into the future. If that is the case, we

cannot be inside the single market. I don't accept there is this binary

choice, this presentation of different alternatives. Equally this

language of hard and soft Brexit that I don't recognise. We are going

into the negotiations to get the best possible deal and set out the

future for our country in a positive way between friends, allies and

neighbours. In your view we could stay inside the single market? It is

not about staying inside, and how we are leaving the European Union and

therefore how you negotiate that new relationship, that new approach. We

are in it or outside it so it is a binary choice. There are so many

different aspects to this. There are different parts, and we are

analysing very closely and carefully. The Prime Minister will

be setting out more of the detail, more ambitions, more of what we seek

is the future of our country outside the European Union but we are still

being part of Europe. The security arrangements we have in place that

we want to see continuing into the future, that matter so much for our

European partners as much as for ourselves. I don't see it in these

stark terms and we should approach the negotiation with confidence and

optimism. James Brokenshire, thank you for talking to us.

And for news of what's coming up straight after this programme,

Join us from Brunel University of London at ten, when we'll be

asking just one big question: Is digital media

We've gathered together stars of old media and new, writers,

online warriors, think tank heavyweights,

learned academics, political activists,

and an essential fact checker, to spat and spar with each other.

Now, if there's one political phrase that worked its way

into our heads last year, it's post-truth politics.

What do you do, how do you act when big lies are gaining currency?

That's at the heart of a new film, Denial, about the renegade British

historian David Irving, accused of denying

It stars Rachel Weisz as a crusading American academic

In the past few years he's played several larger-than-life figures,

from Mike Leigh's "Mr Turner", to Winston Churchill,

I'm delighted to say that Timothy Spall is here

as himself this morning, but before we talk, here's

a clip from "Denial", with David Irving in full flood.

let me reveal something to you, Professor.

I am that David Irving about whom you have been so rude.

Yes, yes, I am he, and it puzzles me that you think yourself

qualified to attack me, given that I have 30 years

The reason you don't engage with people you disagree

Facts, Miss Lipstadt, which don't suit your opinions.

Facts. Welcome. This is a film about a trial, and we know the result,

which is that David Irving was destroyed, but nonetheless, if he

hadn't been, what would have happened? What was at stake, do you

think? It seems to me that the whole facts about the Holocaust and the

extent of the extermination, this terrible human tragedy, would have

been called into question. People would have been going around now

saying, it didn't really happen? I suppose that would be a danger. It

is very difficult to say what would be the consequences of that. So,

yes, I mean, he took the case and it was found against him. The

understanding of what happened stands. Is it strange to play

someone who is still alive and has watched the film - there was an

interview with him in the papers today - someone who denies Hitler

run the Holocaust. Is it strange playing someone like that, knowing

he is watching? The challenge wasn't lost on me, to say the least. And I

did think about it long and hard. Whether you are playing a hero or a

villain, or a mixture of both, as an actor, you have a real duty to play

that person from that person's point of view. Get inside them as much as

possible. Absolutely, and to empathise rather than sympathise.

The character is isolated in the movie, and isolated in his views,

which does have its effects. Watching it, you don't look very

much like David Irving. How much is it the voice? You have an

extraordinarily resonant voice with Irving, which is unlike anyone

else's. The same with Ian Paisley. How much is getting the voice

essential to getting the character? When you look at the physical

attributes, and the sound, you look at that for a template. People

behave and they are the product of how they are inside, so you look at

the carapace and what the human being is, and sort out where that

has come from psychologically. We were just talking about Northern

Ireland, and we must see you playing Eason Paisley. The clip we will show

ways you trying to persuade a guy in a petrol station to give you money

from a credit card. You have the power to overrule that

machine and process his payment. I'm afraid I can't

fight authorisation. I'm afraid I can't

without authorisation. Jesus went into the temple of God

and cast out them that sold He overthrew the tables of the money

changers and the seats of them who sold doves and said unto them,

"My house shall be called the house of prayer, yet ye have made

it a den of thieves!" Great teeth! That was a film about

the friendship between him and Martin McGuinness. Of all the

characters you have been playing recently, you got the biggest

applause for Turner. When you see a script, do you look at it and say,

this is a big character, I can get myself inside this? How do you

approach what you turn down on what you pick up? With Turner, the

character was produced in the making of the film. That is how Mike Leigh

works. It took two all three years to put together. When you look at

the Scripps, you ask the question, is this a human being? Does it have

the possibility to be explored in all of its many facets? Is he a true

example of how people really behave? And if he is challenging, how can I

bring as much humanity underneath that as to whether he is a villain

or a hero? I said at the beginning that this was partly about

post-truth politics - to what extent do you think this film is a morality

tale? We all read stuff on the internet and think, that's not true.

Is the message of this story, when something is not true, we all have a

moral obligation to stand up and say so and take on people who deny the

reality is? I don't fully understand what post-truth means, but what I do

know is that in a world that has never had more information than we

can get now, it is so much more difficult to get into the facts.

Information and facts are different things. Sometimes, when you have

something that is a subject that needs to be, that relies on facts,

sometimes the old structures, like the law, and in this film, it looks

slightly Dickensian, I think in a modern world, it appears that the

old establishment ways of seeking the truth might be the way to go.

Gets an interesting message. It's a great film. Thank you, Tim Spall,

for coming in to speak to us. Denial opens on the 27th of January.

Coming up later this morning: the Sunday Politics with Andrew Neil.

He'll be speaking to the Lib Dem leader Tim Farron about Brexit,

Max Mosley, campaigner for press regulation, and the TV presenter

Jeremy Corbyn sounded just a bit like Donald Trump

in his speech this weekend - the system is rigged and stitched up

against the majority and there needs to be a political uprising

But his profile in the media could not be worse,

and his party's polling is, frankly, dire.

Now, with Theresa May seemingly about to confirm that we will leave

the European single market, there's no shortage

Can I start with that one? Yellow mat good morning. How are you? Very

well, thank you. Theresa May will say that we should leave the single

market and the customs union - what is your reaction as Leader of the

Opposition? She seems to be heading in the direction of a bargain

basement economy on the shores of Europe, with low corporate taxation,

where we will lose access to half our export markets. It seems an

extremely risky strategy and I think there needs to be more discussion,

consultation, and recognise that there is a close economic

cooperation with Europe that will have to continue when we are outside

the EU. And you have read this morning that Philip Hammond has

suggested or implied that if we don't get access to those markets,

we could cut corporation tax in this country quite dramatically and be a

low tax alternative to the EU. It seems to be a threat, saying, if you

don't give us what we want, we will become this strange entity on the

shores of Europe with low levels of corporate taxation, designed to

undermine the effect of the EU. It seems a recipe for a trade war with

Europe, which isn't a sensible way forward. So, trade war, a risky

option, and at bargain basement economy. This is all triggered by

Article 50, which Labour will vote for. The referendum voted to leave

the EU. That, Parliament has to live with and work around, so we won't

plot Article 50, but we will make the point very clearly in the run-up

to the vote about the question of access to European markets, and of

course, there will have to be cooperation on things like

environmental regulation, consumer rights, all those operations with --

all those issues where we have to cooperate. You know now that she's

heading for a version of Brexit that is disastrous... It has been

trialled this morning about a speech she is yet to give. So you don't

believe it? I'm not saying that, but sometimes the media frenzy can get

slightly ahead of the facts. We will find out in the middle of the week.

If that is the case, that taking us to a version of Brexit that you

think is disastrous, why are you saying, there is the cliff edge,

let's march towards it? We're not saying that. Parliament voted to

have a referendum, a decision was made, and we have to work around

that. The question is how the negotiations are conducted and what

the destination is. That is why I have reached out to colleagues

across Europe, and we're having a large conference of Socialist

parties across Europe in order to build alliances. Remember, the

Brexit vote is not one-off thing. It has to be agreed by 27 parliaments,

agreed by the European Parliament. There is a long way to go. You think

European countries could block the version of Brexit Theresa May wants?

I think many European countries would want to maintain links between

universities in their country and Britain, maintain that trade

relationship. An awful lot of industries - think of the big names

in Britain, Rolls-Royce, Airbus and so on - and they rely on a British

cooperation. Is there anyway at all after Article 50 triggered that you

think you can get your version of Brexit through the House of Commons?

It will have to keep coming back to the House of Commons, and we will

make sure it does. I know there is a court case is going on at the

moment. We will keep pressing the Government on this. And there are

MPs in all parties who must be concerned about the future of

industries in the constituencies, about future trade relationships we

will have, and also, what kind of trade arrangements we will have with

the rest of the world in the future. If we are part of the customs union,

then trade is done via that. If we are not, we have to start making our

own trade arrangements, which will be the first time Britain has done

that in 40 years. Forgive the cliche, but is there a majority in

the House of Commons, if Labour wants with other parties, for soft

Brexit? The majority of people in the House of Commons are very

concerned about the implications of our Brexit that leads us into the

Philip Hammond area of bargain basement on the shores of Europe

economy. There are people who are worried, on the points I've made,

about universities and education, and about the practicalities of it

all. Clearly, air pollution is an issue, so was management of this

cease and fishing -- of our seas. It sounds unlikely, but you made a

speech this week which has a whiff of Donald Trump about it, I whiff of

politician and politics are rigged against the ordinary Joe. Is it the

hair? It needs to change. I have got my own. A quote: The people who run

Britain had been taking the people for a ride and have stitched up our

political system to protect the power. It is a big charge - what do

you mean by it? The wealthy in this country out sure and outsource their

profits into tax havens. We have been privatising services for a very

long time. We have a growing gap between the richest and poorest, and

we have a political system that leaves an awful lot of people

behind. That, surely, was one of the messages in the EU referendum

campaign, and in some areas, in the low participation in elections. You

said the political system itself is rigged or stitched up - what is it

about the system that is stitched up? We have a House of Lords that is

dominated by a small number of people from London and the

south-east. Would you get rid of it? I want unelected second chamber that

is representative of all nations and regions in the United Kingdom. It is

very important. It should have an electoral mandate. Abolition of the

House of Lords and its replacement by our elected -- by an elected

second chamber? Yes. It is not a new idea. It has been debated for a long

time. It is not in a manifesto of yours. I would like to get there by

2020. An interesting speech was made on Friday about the need for more

political representation of the north of England. Absolutely. We

will continue these discussions in Scotland on Friday. We are setting

up a constitutional convention so that whenever the general election

is, there will be some degree of consensus about the kind of

constitutional structures we are looking for. On that, if I might. A

constitutional convention in Scotland led to the Scottish

assembly, which led to the Scottish parliament. Would you like to see

the same process in the North of England? Should there be a North of

England Parliament? I think there is an appetite for a stronger form of

regional Government in Britain, an electoral mandate to do that, but

also the levels of investment have got to be shared out fairly across

the country, and they are not. ?1900 per year is spent in the south-east

of inward per year, ?300 in the north-east. That's not fair. The

North is not getting a fair deal, and it might need a Parliament that

the result? It could be stronger local Government, but there has to

be much greater emphasis on the disparity between regions in

Britain, the disparity between investment. There also has to be an

issue, surely, about the gap between the richest and poorest and the

amount of money that disappears into tax havens. Do you think you get a

fair ride in the media, and is media ownership and issue? I don't think

the media are fair, in many ways,

particularly towards the Labour Party. An analysis done over the

first year since the general election showed that over 80% of the

print media was actively hostile to the Labour Party.

We need to remove the levels of concentration of ownership in

certain organisations. You would attack the Rupert Murdoch group...

Rupert Murdoch taking over Sky completely for example is a problem.

We would also explore the role of the BBC is an organisation that is

supposed to educate, entertain and inform. We have been talking about

the NHS and the crisis, and you say in terms of the Labour Party would

find a long-term funding solution for the NHS, but that means nothing

unless you tell us what it is and we have seen a poll in today's's papers

saying that if people were told the specific hypothecated tax would go

to the NHS, the majority would support that. Would you go down that

route? I'm not generally in favour of hypothecated tax but obviously

the party would consider and look at it. The reality is over the next

four years there's going to be ?70 billion less than could be achieved

because of cuts in corporate taxation and cuts in the top rate of

taxation. Is that the kind figure the NHS needs over the next four

years? The crisis in A departments is the symptom, not the cause of the

crisis. I spent Friday afternoon talking to a group of GPs and what

they go through. A ten minute appointment with a GP actually ends

up with half an hour to an hour's work for GB doing other things as a

result. It is too simple to attack GPs and very unfair. How much more

does the NHS needs and how would you pay for it? We would stop the cuts

that have taken place but above all we would put more money into social

care, which needs several billion pounds more very quickly. ?2 billion

as a figure being put by a number of people. The rise in council tax to

pay for social care only raises 400 million, rather less than that, so

you have to raise it by ending the corporate tax cuts. This is a really

important moment in the history of the NHS. As long as I remember

governments have been saying we have given the NHS enough money and

oppositions have been saying no you haven't, but this is a moment when

we have to think about the future of the NHS. We have said long-term

funding solution, can I put it to you that it can be, should be, and

under you would be a specific tax paid for by everybody to put the NHS

into a good place and keep it there? We would guarantee the funding.

Whether we would have a specific tax, I doubt, but I would be

prepared to discuss it. If you go down the road of hypothecated

taxation, then you do it for every other service. That's an issue, but

I would just say this, Labour founded the NHS and it's a point of

principle in our society. It is a human rights get health care at the

point of need. We have a lack of social care, and underfunding of the

mental health service is putting a strain on A departments. The Prime

Minister blames the GPs for this. Let's look at the overall issue of

the lack of funding of the needs of often very vulnerable people. I

thought you had already allocated the corporation tax money for

education, you cannot allocate it twice. I gave you the figure, ?70

billion that will be reduced from public income over the next four

years because of the long-term effects of the cuts in corporation

tax and profits tax. Why is it that when they are asked, do you trust

Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party or Theresa May and the Tories to

deal with the NHS crisis, more people back Theresa May and the

Tories? That's disastrous for you. The more that people see the reality

of the underfunding, the privatising of services, the outsourcing of NHS

facilities, the more and more disappointed and angry they will get

and they will understand the case we are making. We need to say

centrestage, the NHS is about our mindset, our security, we are not

frightened of getting ill in this country because we cannot afford to

pay for it. In the USA, the first question you ask someone who is ill

is what kind of health care insurance have you got? You have a

bye election coming up in Stoke-on-Trent Central, that was a

core Labour constituency. It was also a constituency which voted 70%

to leave the EU, heavily on the immigration issue, and your policy

on immigration is something that most people simply don't understand.

You have said both that you are in favour of managed controlling

immigration and also that you don't rule out changing it, it is very

unclear what you really think. Do you think immigration in this

country should come down? I want the end of exploitation of people, the

undercutting and destruction of working conditions by the bringing

in wholesale of workforces to destroy existing conditions, and

also I would suggest that we think seriously about the contribution

that migrant workers have made to this country in the NHS, in

transport and education. And at this very moment the NHS is recruiting

doctors all over Europe to try to fill the gap caused by the age

profile of our existing GPs. Yes, we do need migrant workers in this

country. Even if you put to one side the gang masters and recruitment

going on in Poland, 82,000 from the EU came to this country without a

job on their own last year to look for work because they thought they

would have a better life. Is that too many? Would you like to see

fewer such people? It will be part of the negotiations of access to

Europe, if we have access to the single market there will be an issue

surrounding that. I have been talking about ending the grotesque

exploitation and the undercutting that goes on. Let's look at the

issue of the flow of people in the context of access to the free

market, but let's not blame migrants for the problems we have. Let's look

instead at an economic system that has created these levels of

inequality and injustice. So you seem to be saying both that you are

in favour of some kind of control but also that you are against. Let

me remind you what you said about this because it's an awful lot of

words involved. You said, "Labour is not weighted to free movement of EU

citizens as a point of principle but I don't want to be misinterpreted

nor do we rule it out." What we are going to be doing is negotiating

trade arrangement with to make sure that we are able to access those

markets. It will involve people from Europe working here just as much as

there are 2 million British people living and working in the European

Union. Are we going to cut ourselves off from the European Union

completely? I don't think so. When we talk about this you always talk

about exploitation and economics but for an awful lot of people this is a

matter of identity and culture. Do you accept that or do you think it

is a form of racism? No, I think identity is an important thing. When

they say communities are changing too fast, you don't get it? It is

also a question of inclusion in that process so the Government for

example cutting English-language classes is part of a problem. The

lack of local authority funding leads to a blame culture which is

unbelievably unfair on people. Let's instead look at the issues of how we

develop our community as a society and look at the huge contribution

made to our health service, education and local government by

those who have come and live here, just like British people in France,

Spain and Germany making a contribution there. "I Would like

there to be some kind of high earnings cap quite honestly, lower

-- quite honestly", do you believe that? I believe in the ratio concept

we are putting forward. 20-1 is one being put forward. So nobody in the

company earns more than 20 times... So the chief executive would be tied

to the wage level of the lowest paid in the company. John Lewis

partnership operate this. We would use its first fall in the public

sector where it broadly applies at the moment but we would also use it

as part of the procurement power of central government those companies

that wish to do business with central government and wish to

benefit from big levels of capital investment in projects all over the

country. Make it a fairer Britain. It wouldn't apply to most private

companies, the banks or engineering companies. I would like it too,

that's why I've put the idea out there. It is a very popular idea, I

was looking at an opinion poll this morning, not that I want to comment

on opinion polls but I understand it is a popular idea and the word on

the street I've heard is that people want to think about it and discuss

it. We've had some interesting responses already, both from

businesses, unions and individuals. To be clear, this wouldn't apply to

people like footballers, pop stars... Footballers are not CEOs of

their companies usually, but also, whilst they are paid ludicrous sums

of money which I suppose we all pay for through our tickets, in reality

they are employed for quite a short time with those clubs. Yes, you will

be contributing to Mesut Ozil's ?15 million a year. Would you like to

comment? Thanks coming are fantastic player, but can you live with what

you got at the moment? His lovely player and it's a fantastic club.

You have been clear in the past that you are against nuclear power and

you want to see nuclear power stations decommissioned, is that

your message to the voters of Copland? My message is the NHS is in

crisis, your hospital is going to continue underfunded and

understaffed and your A department is at risk. We will be protecting

jobs in that area and we would also be trying to protect the pensions of

those people that have worked so hard for so long to keep the nuclear

industry safe. Are you against nuclear power? I want to see a

mixture, a greater emphasis in the long term on renewables in the way

Germany and other countries have done but we do have nuclear power

stations, we have a nuclear base at the moment and that will continue

for a long time. I say no to nuclear power, let's decommission the

nuclear power stations, does Jeremy Corbyn still agree with himself? We

have a mixture at the moment, nuclear power stations lost a very

long time. Sellafield will be there for a long time as a reprocessing

plant anyway, whatever happens. There's a big new development at

Moorfield. That's being considered. Would you be happy for it to go

ahead? I want an energy mix in this country, we have to make sure there

is enough supplies and an energy platform so Moorfield is key to

ensuring that happens but we have to have a much better energy mix,

otherwise what we do? Go to coal-fired power stations or end up

with energy shortages. The party is way behind in the opinion polls, you

are behind in the opinion polls, you a series of by-elections in court

Labour seat. If you don't win Copland and Stoke-on-Trent Central,

you are toast, aren't you? No, our party will fight very hard. But

things are not getting any better. You are making the assumption that

everything is a problem, it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity to

challenge the Government on the NHS and challenge them on the chaos of

Brexit, an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage and

zero hours contracts. Is there ever a moment you look in the mirror and

think, I've done my best but this might not be for me. I think let's

go out there and try to create a society where there are

opportunities for everyone, where there is and homelessness, where

there are houses for everyone and young people are not frightened of

going to university because of the debts they will end up with at the

end of their course. And I'm the man to do it. Jeremy Corbyn, thank you

very much indeed. Next week, I'll be joined

by the Liberal Democrat And the wonderful opera

singer Joyce DiDonato.