15/01/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


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15/01/2017

Andrew Marr's guests include leader of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn and actor Timothy Spall. The newspapers are reviewed by Ayesha Hazarika, Esther McVey and Paul Waugh.


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There's talk of an NHS crisis absolutely everywhere.

:00:00.:00:07.

Theresa May is set to confirm we'll be out

:00:08.:00:09.

of the European Single Market - a move that will appall

:00:10.:00:12.

You might have thought the opposition would be riding high.

:00:13.:00:17.

Instead, Labour's had yet another - yet another - terrible week.

:00:18.:00:21.

Is time running out for Jeremy Corbyn?

:00:22.:00:43.

The Labour leader, fresh from his most radical speech yet,

:00:44.:00:45.

is here to explain how his anti-establishment politics

:00:46.:00:48.

will revive his party's flagging fortunes.

:00:49.:00:53.

Could Northern Ireland's political meltdown throw Theresa May's plans

:00:54.:00:56.

I'll ask the Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire.

:00:57.:01:09.

And, as arguments rage about post-truth politics,

:01:10.:01:11.

Timothy Spall will be here to talk about his new film - an epic battle

:01:12.:01:15.

The reason you don't engage with people you

:01:16.:01:21.

And you might learn some facts, facts which don't suit your

:01:22.:01:27.

Joining me on the sofa this morning Ayesha Hazarika,

:01:28.:01:34.

a former Labour adviser turned stand-up comedian, Paul Waugh,

:01:35.:01:36.

political editor of Huffington Post UK, and Esther McVey,

:01:37.:01:38.

a former Tory MP and a Leave campaigner in the EU referendum,

:01:39.:01:45.

That's all after the news, read for us this morning

:01:46.:01:47.

The Prime Minister Theresa May is to call for an end

:01:48.:01:54.

to the division stirred by last year's EU referendum,

:01:55.:01:56.

when she reveals her most detailed plan yet on how the Government

:01:57.:01:59.

will approach its Brexit negotiations.

:02:00.:02:01.

In a speech this week to ambassadors, she'll outline

:02:02.:02:04.

a commitment to building a Britain more open to the rest of the world.

:02:05.:02:07.

Reports suggest that she will set out plans

:02:08.:02:09.

for a so-called "hard Brexit" - pulling out of the single market

:02:10.:02:12.

and the customs union in order to regain control of immigration.

:02:13.:02:16.

Air passengers arriving in Britain could face "severe

:02:17.:02:18.

disruption" after Brexit, unless there's an increase

:02:19.:02:21.

in Border Force staff, according to the Airport Operators

:02:22.:02:23.

The group says passport checks for EU nationals are likely

:02:24.:02:28.

to become more stringent, causing an increase in queues

:02:29.:02:30.

Here's our home affairs correspondent, Danny Shaw.

:02:31.:02:36.

There are record numbers of travellers at Britain's airports.

:02:37.:02:39.

In 2015, there were 251 million passenger journeys.

:02:40.:02:44.

It's thought last year's figure was even higher.

:02:45.:02:47.

But there's concern that growth in air traffic hasn't been matched

:02:48.:02:50.

by an increase in resources for Border Force,

:02:51.:02:52.

which is responsible for immigration and customs checks.

:02:53.:03:00.

The Airport Operators Association says that's led to longer

:03:01.:03:02.

queues at passport desks, and it's concerned

:03:03.:03:04.

At present, EU travellers use separate channels

:03:05.:03:08.

They tend to be quicker than for passengers

:03:09.:03:18.

But after Brexit, if people from overseas all screened

:03:19.:03:21.

in the same way, the association says overall waiting

:03:22.:03:23.

The Home Office says it will be wrong to set out details of how

:03:24.:03:28.

future immigration controls might work in advance of negotiations

:03:29.:03:31.

with the EU, but the department says Border Force has the capacity

:03:32.:03:34.

to meet passenger demand and maintain security.

:03:35.:03:36.

The US president-elect, donald trump, has hit back at criticism

:03:37.:03:46.

from the respected civil rights campaigner, John Lewis.

:03:47.:03:48.

Mr Lewis, a Democrat Congressman, said he did not consider Mr Trump

:03:49.:03:51.

a legitimate president and would not attend his inauguration.

:03:52.:03:54.

Other Democrat politicians are expected to boycott the event.

:03:55.:03:56.

Donald Trump responded with a tweet, dismissing Mr Lewis as "all

:03:57.:04:00.

A committee of MPs is to hold an inquiry into the planned

:04:01.:04:08.

multi-billion pound restoration of the Palace of Westminster.

:04:09.:04:10.

A report last year recommended that both MPs and peers move out

:04:11.:04:15.

of the buildings for several years while work is carried out -

:04:16.:04:18.

But the Treasury Select Committee is to examine whether the move

:04:19.:04:23.

is necessary and whether the plan offers value for money.

:04:24.:04:27.

A major international conference to try to kick-start

:04:28.:04:29.

the Middle East peace process is being held in Paris.

:04:30.:04:33.

Delegates from 70 countries, including Britain, are expected

:04:34.:04:37.

to reaffirm support for a two-state solution to the

:04:38.:04:39.

Palestinians have welcomed the meeting, but Israel

:04:40.:04:43.

I said earlier that the NHS crisis was all over the papers, so let me

:04:44.:05:05.

demonstrate. The Sunday Mirror. A picture of a little girl sitting on

:05:06.:05:10.

the floor of her award. The Mail on Sunday suggests cutting foreign aid

:05:11.:05:18.

to fund the NHS better. And the Observer - health service in crisis

:05:19.:05:21.

as cancer operations are cancelled. The Sunday Times has gone with a

:05:22.:05:32.

trump- Putin summit. They also say that Theresa May is going to

:05:33.:05:36.

announce on Wednesday that we're unlikely to leave customs union and

:05:37.:05:42.

the single market. The Sunday Telegraph gambles on what they call

:05:43.:05:49.

eight clean Brexit. People always say it is clean, hard, soft, brutal,

:05:50.:05:57.

whatever. Let's start with Brexit. I think the interesting thing about

:05:58.:06:00.

the Sunday Times front page is that it captures how much hardball

:06:01.:06:04.

Theresa May will play next week when she makes this speech on Brexit. It

:06:05.:06:07.

is unusual to our politicians talking about the pound, but here we

:06:08.:06:12.

have Downing Street rethink that there could be a market correction.

:06:13.:06:22.

What might be pound going down? Yes. They are also talking about a

:06:23.:06:26.

transitional deal. If it proves necessary, we have said we will

:06:27.:06:30.

consider time for implementation of new arrangements, which shows it is

:06:31.:06:34.

not about hard or soft Brexit, but more about quick or slow. A bit

:06:35.:06:41.

harder on the bit slower seems to be the message. Ayesha, Theresa May has

:06:42.:06:44.

said all the way through that we have to have control back over

:06:45.:06:48.

immigration, which means leaving the single market, which is no surprise.

:06:49.:06:52.

If she wasn't going to leave the customs union, she would not have

:06:53.:06:57.

set up an entire department for international trade duties. It is no

:06:58.:07:02.

surprise, but still quite a moment. I think she has made her position

:07:03.:07:06.

clear, leaning towards favouring immigration control over membership

:07:07.:07:12.

of the single market. We talked about the adjectives people use. I

:07:13.:07:16.

think that was the signal the country gave, and that is why she is

:07:17.:07:21.

going with it. Don't forget what Philip Hammond said - people didn't

:07:22.:07:25.

vote for Brexit to be worse off. I hope that we will not have a broke

:07:26.:07:30.

Brexit Ouray breadline Brexit at the end of this. Their race and

:07:31.:07:36.

interesting story in a German Sunday newspaper in which Philip Hammond is

:07:37.:07:38.

quoted saying that if we don't get the market access we want, we can

:07:39.:07:43.

have a different economic model, by which he seems to mean slashing

:07:44.:07:51.

corporation tax and having a low tax island outside the continental

:07:52.:07:55.

system. That's the threat. There could be a cliff edge and a real

:07:56.:08:01.

problem. When Theresa May sneezes about hard Brexit, the markets catch

:08:02.:08:05.

a cold, so we will see what the reaction is on Tuesday. What might

:08:06.:08:08.

you have chosen the Sunday express. Yes, made's battleplan. It is living

:08:09.:08:14.

up to the expectations and votes of the British public, who said there

:08:15.:08:20.

was no hard, soft Brexit, just Brexit. These I get so -- these

:08:21.:08:31.

adjectives have been brought about by people who wanted to remain.

:08:32.:08:39.

People wanted control over the law as well. What she is doing is she is

:08:40.:08:44.

delivering as best she can the best deal for the UK. Interestingly, the

:08:45.:08:51.

EU don't recognise the term single market. It's known as the internal

:08:52.:08:56.

market. That in itself says that if we are not an internal part of the

:08:57.:09:00.

system, we won't be part of the single market. We are looking from

:09:01.:09:04.

no tariffs, their best deal for the UK, and to live up to what all those

:09:05.:09:08.

millions of people came out and said we want for the UK. And yet, in

:09:09.:09:13.

terms of what people really voted for, there is an opinion poll that

:09:14.:09:16.

suggests if people think they will be worse off, they don't want to

:09:17.:09:22.

leave. People want everything - to be richer and outside. A lot of it

:09:23.:09:29.

has been recalibrated and blown away. The chief economist for the

:09:30.:09:34.

Bank of England said that we have had the Michael Fish moment. We have

:09:35.:09:39.

seen the FTSE 100 going up, employment going up, the fact that

:09:40.:09:45.

growth was still the best in the G7. The doomsday scenarios are not the

:09:46.:09:48.

case. Yes, there will be an adjustment. Yes, we know that the

:09:49.:09:52.

pound might have to stabilise, or whatever terms seem best. We know

:09:53.:10:00.

there will be a recalibration, but it will be positive for the UK in

:10:01.:10:04.

the end because we are an international country and we have to

:10:05.:10:07.

look to the world. We hope it will be positive, and we have to make it

:10:08.:10:11.

work the best we can. In the same way that you would say to Remainers,

:10:12.:10:17.

accept the result, I think it is acceptable for the other side to

:10:18.:10:22.

understand that people do have anxieties about the prospects for

:10:23.:10:25.

the country. It is not a bad thing to worry. Ayesha, you chose the

:10:26.:10:38.

Observer. Kia Starmer. He wants particular conditions to be met. He

:10:39.:10:45.

wants guarantees given before Article 50 negotiations begin, and

:10:46.:10:51.

certainty for the 2.5 million EU citizens who currently reside in the

:10:52.:10:55.

UK. The Labour Party has also got to get its act together in terms of

:10:56.:11:01.

Brexit and what our position is. Brexit is happening. Immigration is

:11:02.:11:04.

a really important part of the story, and I think we need some

:11:05.:11:07.

clarity from the Labour Party about their position on freedom of

:11:08.:11:12.

movement. Well, thank you for that. We will move onto one of the

:11:13.:11:15.

constituencies which voted 70% to leave EU, Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:11:16.:11:21.

losing its MP, Tristram Hunt. He is leaving to be director of the B and

:11:22.:11:27.

day, a very prestigious job at which he will do well, I'm sure. -- the

:11:28.:11:32.

Victoria and Albert Museum. They face a second difficult by-election

:11:33.:11:37.

in their heartland territories. This has to be a headache for Labour,

:11:38.:11:44.

particularly the Corbynista Labour. There are two by-elections here, two

:11:45.:11:48.

moderate Labour MPs leaving, but as I look at this strategically, on a

:11:49.:11:55.

bigger picture, moderate Labour have never known how they will seize back

:11:56.:11:59.

control of their party as they see it. They tried a leadership bid and

:12:00.:12:03.

it didn't happen. Jeremy Corbyn was voted back with a greater amount.

:12:04.:12:08.

What you will see is, one by one, these moderate Labour MPs will say,

:12:09.:12:12.

we might not survive because boundary changes or deselection

:12:13.:12:19.

could have got rid of Tristram Hunt. This is a form of destabilisation.

:12:20.:12:28.

Bit by bit. You could say, on the other hand, that Ukip and the Tories

:12:29.:12:33.

are almost second equal behind Labour. It is an interesting

:12:34.:12:37.

question for the Tory - do they fight hard and help Labour by

:12:38.:12:41.

keeping Ukip down, or do they stand back and let you could try to win?

:12:42.:12:47.

Ukip came second in this seat, anyway. It is interesting in this

:12:48.:12:52.

article that a lot of people there who are Labour voters, strong labour

:12:53.:12:57.

area, did not vote enthusiastically at all for Labour in 2015. Only a

:12:58.:13:04.

49.9% turnout. They said they just didn't want to vote for the Tories.

:13:05.:13:09.

He has been described as the least popular MP in the House of Commons

:13:10.:13:13.

on the basis of the number of people who actually voted for him. I would

:13:14.:13:18.

have Ukip in second place, who would be the main threat here. Paul not

:13:19.:13:22.

all, the leader, I think it would be a good seat for him to go for. That

:13:23.:13:28.

would be a heck of a story if he took it. If I was Paul Nuttall, that

:13:29.:13:32.

is a seat I would be going for, where I would put all my ammunition.

:13:33.:13:37.

That could be a possible winner and a terrible loss for Labour. You said

:13:38.:13:42.

just now that this could happen again and again, and Paul, you have

:13:43.:13:46.

a story in the Sunday Times suggesting the same thing, albeit a

:13:47.:13:51.

bit thin on detail. MPs are ready to free Corbyn. -- to flee Corbyn.

:13:52.:14:00.

There may be a maximum of two you are ready to walk. What is

:14:01.:14:07.

interesting is, Jeremy Corbyn is going to address the Parliamentary

:14:08.:14:10.

Labour Party tomorrow night to start of the New Year, his new message,

:14:11.:14:15.

and it will be interesting to see the mood. A year ago, Monday night

:14:16.:14:20.

was fight night. Labour MPs were always having a pop at Jeremy

:14:21.:14:25.

Corbyn. The mood has changed. And don't forget, Tristram Hunt and

:14:26.:14:30.

Jamie Reid, who have both decided to leave Westminster, have left on good

:14:31.:14:34.

terms. They are not having a pop at Jeremy Corbyn. Why? They don't want

:14:35.:14:44.

to be blamed for the poor state of -- poor state of the party in the

:14:45.:14:50.

polls. Ayesha, the other big story of the day - the NHS, absolutely

:14:51.:14:57.

everywhere. Is this a real crisis? We read the stuff week after week,

:14:58.:14:59.

month after month. I think it is a crisis, there is a

:15:00.:15:08.

very powerful picture on the Sunday Mirror of a girl who has been lying

:15:09.:15:12.

on the floor for eight hours. On the inside pages we have Jonathan

:15:13.:15:17.

Ashridge, the Labour health spokesperson saying there is a

:15:18.:15:21.

crisis and the Prime Minister is denying it. The health service is

:15:22.:15:24.

always stretched, no matter how much money you put into it there is

:15:25.:15:29.

always issues, but there are some things we have to look at. We have

:15:30.:15:37.

got a massive problem, we need more funding in the NHS. But the question

:15:38.:15:39.

is how and the Mail on Sunday suggests taking money from the

:15:40.:15:43.

foreign aid budget, but there's an interesting poll that the

:15:44.:15:47.

independence carried out suggesting that if... I will let you tell. Luck

:15:48.:15:53.

there is bad news and good news for the Labour Party, Theresa May and

:15:54.:15:57.

Tories will do a better job than Labour with the NHS this winter.

:15:58.:16:02.

More people think Theresa May can handle the winter crisis better than

:16:03.:16:07.

Labour. Given that Labour but all their political chips on this

:16:08.:16:11.

agenda, that is a blow. For to 7% agree with the Red Cross that there

:16:12.:16:17.

is a humanitarian crisis but opposition is about coming up...

:16:18.:16:23.

The majority of people say that if we had an extra tax specifically for

:16:24.:16:26.

the NHS, they would pay more tax to save the NHS. I think different

:16:27.:16:32.

people have said they choose for it to be paid for in different ways but

:16:33.:16:36.

what you have seen is that the budget has gone up from

:16:37.:16:43.

100,000,000,020 ten, now 116, will go up to 129 billion by 2020 so how

:16:44.:16:49.

are we best to pay for this? Is it going to be because people are

:16:50.:16:52.

realistic, they know there's only a certain amount of money in the

:16:53.:16:54.

budget, and is going to now come from foreign because we all believe

:16:55.:17:12.

we have got to see a better service. I will be talking about this with

:17:13.:17:15.

Jeremy Corbyn in the moment. I want to talk about your Trump story

:17:16.:17:18.

before we finish. Trump has gone to war with a man called John Lewis, a

:17:19.:17:20.

very prominent black activist in America who has said I don't think

:17:21.:17:23.

she is fit to be president and has really attacked him. As we look

:17:24.:17:26.

ahead to the inauguration, we are all agog to see it but we mustn't

:17:27.:17:31.

underestimate how worried people are in America about the clock being

:17:32.:17:37.

turned back on things like racial inequality, civil Liberties, human

:17:38.:17:40.

rights, women's rights, so that is something that people are very

:17:41.:17:48.

worried about. I really hope that he doesn't... You know, he is a man

:17:49.:17:53.

with a big ego and a very thin skin and I hope... Interesting report.

:17:54.:18:00.

There is a lot more about Donald Trump in the Spy and the rest of the

:18:01.:18:05.

papers. Well, a little snow on the ground -

:18:06.:18:08.

mere spits and spats in London - proper old-fashioned

:18:09.:18:11.

snow further north. Is there any possibility that we're

:18:12.:18:12.

going to see the really serious weather that has

:18:13.:18:15.

plagued the continent? No is the long and short of it, it

:18:16.:18:24.

will be mild across the country and we've been using a lot of

:18:25.:18:28.

alliteration to describe the weather, dull, damp and drizzly, and

:18:29.:18:35.

this picture is fairly indicative of what's going on across the country.

:18:36.:18:39.

Outbreaks of showery rain, and even when that's clears away it will stay

:18:40.:18:48.

dull and drizzly for many. Double digit out to the west but it stays

:18:49.:18:53.

cold in east Anglia, and that could lead to some frost and patchy fog

:18:54.:18:58.

here through the night, but we do it all again elsewhere. More cloud,

:18:59.:19:03.

another weather front bringing in some more rain. That will continue

:19:04.:19:08.

to drift steadily eastwards. The temperature is not falling far at

:19:09.:19:13.

all in the west, 7 degrees is the minimum, still chilly in East Anglia

:19:14.:19:16.

and bad weather front sits through the spine of the country tomorrow

:19:17.:19:21.

with outbreaks of drizzly rain. Sandwiched either side, some

:19:22.:19:26.

brighter weather, wet weather into the extreme north-west. But look at

:19:27.:19:30.

the temperatures again, so the weather again, unlike your

:19:31.:19:35.

programme, Andrew, is looking a bit dreary.

:19:36.:19:38.

That's very kind of you and I see Northern Ireland is relatively

:19:39.:19:42.

bright and dried, which is lovely because there is another crisis

:19:43.:19:43.

there. The Northern Ireland Assembly

:19:44.:19:44.

is on the edge of collapse after the resignation last week

:19:45.:19:47.

of the Deputy First Minister, Time is running out before

:19:48.:19:49.

the Northern Ireland Secretary, James Brokenshire, must call

:19:50.:19:52.

an emergency snap election, but that means Northern Ireland

:19:53.:19:54.

might lose its voice during the crucial Brexit period,

:19:55.:19:56.

and that might even be illegal. Let's go through this, one by one.

:19:57.:20:07.

You have a legal obligation if the Sinn Fein people don't put up a new

:20:08.:20:13.

Deputy First Minister, you call an election, don't you? That's right,

:20:14.:20:17.

last week Martin McGuinness resigned as Deputy First Minister and that

:20:18.:20:20.

means if the replacement is not put in place by five o'clock tomorrow

:20:21.:20:27.

evening, it is incumbent upon me as Secretary of State to call an

:20:28.:20:29.

election within a reasonable period of time. What we are seeking to do

:20:30.:20:33.

is work with the parties to see if we can bring them together to avoid

:20:34.:20:37.

that from taking place. At the moment there is no indication

:20:38.:20:44.

another replacement will be offered. You are going over there, you have

:20:45.:20:48.

until five o'clock tomorrow, do you wait until then to call an election?

:20:49.:20:53.

Sinn Fein have indicated they are not intending to put a replacement

:20:54.:20:57.

forward. We've been discussing, and I've had extensive discussions with

:20:58.:21:01.

all of the parties over the last few days, and going straight back to

:21:02.:21:05.

Belfast after this programme to continue those discussions. But the

:21:06.:21:09.

clear indications, the increasing likelihood is that we are moving

:21:10.:21:12.

towards an election. Obviously I will be considering the position at

:21:13.:21:17.

that point in time. My statutory responsibility is to call an

:21:18.:21:20.

election but that means there has to be an election campaign of 25

:21:21.:21:23.

working days for the campaign itself. So unless you delay it for a

:21:24.:21:30.

very long time, this will carry on right the way through the period

:21:31.:21:33.

when we were supposed to be discussing Brexit and that means

:21:34.:21:37.

there will be no Northern Ireland voice in those discussions, which

:21:38.:21:39.

according to the court case in London might even be illegal. It's

:21:40.:21:43.

important to understand there's already been discussions with the

:21:44.:21:47.

Northern Ireland executive, we have a joint ministerial committee. The

:21:48.:21:51.

work I've been doing, reaching out to communities and business in

:21:52.:21:56.

Northern Ireland, but we still have ministers in place as well. No First

:21:57.:21:59.

Minister, no Deputy First Minister, it is very hard for Northern Ireland

:22:00.:22:03.

to give its voice properly and this is the crucial point of the Brexit

:22:04.:22:08.

period coming up. This is when they need to be engaged. I think they

:22:09.:22:13.

have been engaged and we will continue to invite the executive.

:22:14.:22:19.

Ministers stay in place and we have structures that ensure people are

:22:20.:22:23.

invited so that will continue, and indeed the work I do as Secretary of

:22:24.:22:27.

State in talking to all of the different players and partners in

:22:28.:22:30.

Northern Ireland, getting their feedback. That has given us already

:22:31.:22:35.

a good indication as to the issues that really matter and how we are

:22:36.:22:39.

determined to get the best possible outcome. Theresa May made it very

:22:40.:22:43.

clear that Northern Ireland, like Scotland, must be engaged in these

:22:44.:22:48.

negotiations at the critical period. If Northern Ireland is in the middle

:22:49.:22:51.

of a general election throughout that period, they cannot be properly

:22:52.:22:57.

engaged, can they? We have had that engagement and we will continue to

:22:58.:23:02.

take those steps. We are not delaying the timetable, we remain

:23:03.:23:05.

committed to triggering Article 50 by no later than the end of March

:23:06.:23:10.

and nothing changes that. We will continue to work, and my engagement

:23:11.:23:14.

is about bringing people together, bringing the parties together to

:23:15.:23:18.

ensure there is in that sense of division appearing. This is a

:23:19.:23:24.

complex crisis but if after the election there is no resolution, the

:23:25.:23:27.

parties still can't work together, what happens next? I'm not thinking

:23:28.:23:33.

about that. My absolute focus is on how we bring the parties together.

:23:34.:23:39.

You are right, there is a relatively short period of time after the

:23:40.:23:42.

election, it is about three weeks but we have to soon as it -- to seek

:23:43.:23:48.

an executive being formed. The simple alternative would be to call

:23:49.:23:53.

another election but I'm focused on maintaining the institutions. This

:23:54.:23:57.

is really significant, it is important we are working together to

:23:58.:24:00.

see people are focused on the great opportunities for Northern Ireland,

:24:01.:24:04.

the real benefit icy day in and day out and how we need to make sure

:24:05.:24:08.

there is good communication that continues. But as I say, the reality

:24:09.:24:13.

is that we are moving towards an election, and how we continue to see

:24:14.:24:19.

people are focused and make sure communication is maintained. If that

:24:20.:24:23.

election produces another failed results, is there any possibility

:24:24.:24:26.

the British government would look towards a joint authority with the

:24:27.:24:30.

Irish government over Northern Ireland? To be absolutely straight,

:24:31.:24:34.

I'm not contemplating alternatives to devolved government in Northern

:24:35.:24:41.

Ireland. Really? Given that it might happen very soon? My responsibility

:24:42.:24:45.

is to see that we are working with each of the parties, that we're not

:24:46.:24:49.

looking at greater division. My concern is that an election campaign

:24:50.:24:53.

will be divisive and lead to greater distance between the parties at the

:24:54.:25:00.

end that. It is that work therefore that I'm doing and will continue to

:25:01.:25:04.

do. I would really encourage the parties themselves to think about

:25:05.:25:08.

these big issues on how they conduct that campaign and how we are able to

:25:09.:25:12.

build things back together once it is concluded. We have been talking

:25:13.:25:15.

about what kind of country we will be after Brexit this morning and

:25:16.:25:19.

Northern Ireland is very much part of that country. There's been a

:25:20.:25:23.

suggestion from Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, that if we are forced

:25:24.:25:27.

out of access from the European markets we could slash corporation

:25:28.:25:31.

tax and become very different kind of economy, is that something you

:25:32.:25:35.

recognise? In Northern Ireland we have said we would like to see the

:25:36.:25:39.

devolution of corporation tax, and the executive has indicated it would

:25:40.:25:44.

like to see a marrying of corporation tax rates across

:25:45.:25:50.

Northern island of 12.5%. We have contemplated how you devolve

:25:51.:25:52.

corporation tax and benefits, but I wouldn't want to speculate more

:25:53.:25:57.

broadly. We could be a more free trading, lower corporation tax

:25:58.:26:01.

economy. The Prime Minister has always been clear that she wants the

:26:02.:26:06.

UK to be an open, outward looking trading nation. That is that

:26:07.:26:10.

positive view that we have for the UK moving forward and how best to

:26:11.:26:15.

achieve that, and obviously ensuring UK companies continue to have the

:26:16.:26:19.

best access to the ability to trade and operate within the European

:26:20.:26:22.

Union. But when you read this morning that the UK will be outside

:26:23.:26:26.

the single market and outside the customs union, you are not surprised

:26:27.:26:32.

by that, are you? I'm not going to speculate about what the Prime

:26:33.:26:36.

Minister will say on Tuesday. But what she has been clear about is

:26:37.:26:41.

that we are leaving the European Union. That is how we then negotiate

:26:42.:26:46.

and look at our future. It is that open approach, that global Britain

:26:47.:26:49.

message she will be giving on Tuesday as to how we set that

:26:50.:26:53.

forward. How can we possibly stay inside the single market and control

:26:54.:27:00.

migration? We can't. I don't see this as a binary choice. We have a

:27:01.:27:05.

very clear approach in seeking to achieve that open approach for

:27:06.:27:08.

business but also that very stark message that I do take, that the

:27:09.:27:17.

Government takes from the EU referendum that free movement as it

:27:18.:27:19.

exists today cannot continue into the future. If that is the case, we

:27:20.:27:23.

cannot be inside the single market. I don't accept there is this binary

:27:24.:27:28.

choice, this presentation of different alternatives. Equally this

:27:29.:27:32.

language of hard and soft Brexit that I don't recognise. We are going

:27:33.:27:36.

into the negotiations to get the best possible deal and set out the

:27:37.:27:41.

future for our country in a positive way between friends, allies and

:27:42.:27:45.

neighbours. In your view we could stay inside the single market? It is

:27:46.:27:52.

not about staying inside, and how we are leaving the European Union and

:27:53.:27:56.

therefore how you negotiate that new relationship, that new approach. We

:27:57.:28:03.

are in it or outside it so it is a binary choice. There are so many

:28:04.:28:08.

different aspects to this. There are different parts, and we are

:28:09.:28:12.

analysing very closely and carefully. The Prime Minister will

:28:13.:28:16.

be setting out more of the detail, more ambitions, more of what we seek

:28:17.:28:20.

is the future of our country outside the European Union but we are still

:28:21.:28:24.

being part of Europe. The security arrangements we have in place that

:28:25.:28:28.

we want to see continuing into the future, that matter so much for our

:28:29.:28:33.

European partners as much as for ourselves. I don't see it in these

:28:34.:28:37.

stark terms and we should approach the negotiation with confidence and

:28:38.:28:42.

optimism. James Brokenshire, thank you for talking to us.

:28:43.:28:45.

And for news of what's coming up straight after this programme,

:28:46.:28:47.

Join us from Brunel University of London at ten, when we'll be

:28:48.:28:51.

asking just one big question: Is digital media

:28:52.:28:53.

We've gathered together stars of old media and new, writers,

:28:54.:28:56.

online warriors, think tank heavyweights,

:28:57.:28:58.

learned academics, political activists,

:28:59.:28:59.

and an essential fact checker, to spat and spar with each other.

:29:00.:29:01.

Now, if there's one political phrase that worked its way

:29:02.:29:09.

into our heads last year, it's post-truth politics.

:29:10.:29:11.

What do you do, how do you act when big lies are gaining currency?

:29:12.:29:14.

That's at the heart of a new film, Denial, about the renegade British

:29:15.:29:18.

historian David Irving, accused of denying

:29:19.:29:19.

It stars Rachel Weisz as a crusading American academic

:29:20.:29:24.

In the past few years he's played several larger-than-life figures,

:29:25.:29:29.

from Mike Leigh's "Mr Turner", to Winston Churchill,

:29:30.:29:31.

I'm delighted to say that Timothy Spall is here

:29:32.:29:37.

as himself this morning, but before we talk, here's

:29:38.:29:39.

a clip from "Denial", with David Irving in full flood.

:29:40.:29:45.

let me reveal something to you, Professor.

:29:46.:29:51.

I am that David Irving about whom you have been so rude.

:29:52.:29:56.

Yes, yes, I am he, and it puzzles me that you think yourself

:29:57.:29:59.

qualified to attack me, given that I have 30 years

:30:00.:30:02.

The reason you don't engage with people you disagree

:30:03.:30:07.

Facts, Miss Lipstadt, which don't suit your opinions.

:30:08.:30:14.

Facts. Welcome. This is a film about a trial, and we know the result,

:30:15.:30:30.

which is that David Irving was destroyed, but nonetheless, if he

:30:31.:30:33.

hadn't been, what would have happened? What was at stake, do you

:30:34.:30:42.

think? It seems to me that the whole facts about the Holocaust and the

:30:43.:30:47.

extent of the extermination, this terrible human tragedy, would have

:30:48.:30:52.

been called into question. People would have been going around now

:30:53.:30:57.

saying, it didn't really happen? I suppose that would be a danger. It

:30:58.:31:01.

is very difficult to say what would be the consequences of that. So,

:31:02.:31:14.

yes, I mean, he took the case and it was found against him. The

:31:15.:31:18.

understanding of what happened stands. Is it strange to play

:31:19.:31:24.

someone who is still alive and has watched the film - there was an

:31:25.:31:28.

interview with him in the papers today - someone who denies Hitler

:31:29.:31:38.

run the Holocaust. Is it strange playing someone like that, knowing

:31:39.:31:43.

he is watching? The challenge wasn't lost on me, to say the least. And I

:31:44.:31:50.

did think about it long and hard. Whether you are playing a hero or a

:31:51.:31:56.

villain, or a mixture of both, as an actor, you have a real duty to play

:31:57.:32:02.

that person from that person's point of view. Get inside them as much as

:32:03.:32:07.

possible. Absolutely, and to empathise rather than sympathise.

:32:08.:32:11.

The character is isolated in the movie, and isolated in his views,

:32:12.:32:16.

which does have its effects. Watching it, you don't look very

:32:17.:32:20.

much like David Irving. How much is it the voice? You have an

:32:21.:32:25.

extraordinarily resonant voice with Irving, which is unlike anyone

:32:26.:32:29.

else's. The same with Ian Paisley. How much is getting the voice

:32:30.:32:34.

essential to getting the character? When you look at the physical

:32:35.:32:37.

attributes, and the sound, you look at that for a template. People

:32:38.:32:44.

behave and they are the product of how they are inside, so you look at

:32:45.:32:49.

the carapace and what the human being is, and sort out where that

:32:50.:32:54.

has come from psychologically. We were just talking about Northern

:32:55.:32:59.

Ireland, and we must see you playing Eason Paisley. The clip we will show

:33:00.:33:03.

ways you trying to persuade a guy in a petrol station to give you money

:33:04.:33:05.

from a credit card. You have the power to overrule that

:33:06.:33:06.

machine and process his payment. I'm afraid I can't

:33:07.:33:09.

fight authorisation. I'm afraid I can't

:33:10.:33:17.

without authorisation. Jesus went into the temple of God

:33:18.:33:19.

and cast out them that sold He overthrew the tables of the money

:33:20.:33:22.

changers and the seats of them who sold doves and said unto them,

:33:23.:33:26.

"My house shall be called the house of prayer, yet ye have made

:33:27.:33:29.

it a den of thieves!" Great teeth! That was a film about

:33:30.:33:46.

the friendship between him and Martin McGuinness. Of all the

:33:47.:33:49.

characters you have been playing recently, you got the biggest

:33:50.:33:53.

applause for Turner. When you see a script, do you look at it and say,

:33:54.:33:57.

this is a big character, I can get myself inside this? How do you

:33:58.:34:01.

approach what you turn down on what you pick up? With Turner, the

:34:02.:34:05.

character was produced in the making of the film. That is how Mike Leigh

:34:06.:34:11.

works. It took two all three years to put together. When you look at

:34:12.:34:14.

the Scripps, you ask the question, is this a human being? Does it have

:34:15.:34:19.

the possibility to be explored in all of its many facets? Is he a true

:34:20.:34:24.

example of how people really behave? And if he is challenging, how can I

:34:25.:34:29.

bring as much humanity underneath that as to whether he is a villain

:34:30.:34:34.

or a hero? I said at the beginning that this was partly about

:34:35.:34:39.

post-truth politics - to what extent do you think this film is a morality

:34:40.:34:44.

tale? We all read stuff on the internet and think, that's not true.

:34:45.:34:48.

Is the message of this story, when something is not true, we all have a

:34:49.:34:51.

moral obligation to stand up and say so and take on people who deny the

:34:52.:34:58.

reality is? I don't fully understand what post-truth means, but what I do

:34:59.:35:02.

know is that in a world that has never had more information than we

:35:03.:35:06.

can get now, it is so much more difficult to get into the facts.

:35:07.:35:11.

Information and facts are different things. Sometimes, when you have

:35:12.:35:14.

something that is a subject that needs to be, that relies on facts,

:35:15.:35:22.

sometimes the old structures, like the law, and in this film, it looks

:35:23.:35:27.

slightly Dickensian, I think in a modern world, it appears that the

:35:28.:35:31.

old establishment ways of seeking the truth might be the way to go.

:35:32.:35:35.

Gets an interesting message. It's a great film. Thank you, Tim Spall,

:35:36.:35:42.

for coming in to speak to us. Denial opens on the 27th of January.

:35:43.:35:49.

Coming up later this morning: the Sunday Politics with Andrew Neil.

:35:50.:35:51.

He'll be speaking to the Lib Dem leader Tim Farron about Brexit,

:35:52.:35:54.

Max Mosley, campaigner for press regulation, and the TV presenter

:35:55.:35:56.

Jeremy Corbyn sounded just a bit like Donald Trump

:35:57.:36:02.

in his speech this weekend - the system is rigged and stitched up

:36:03.:36:05.

against the majority and there needs to be a political uprising

:36:06.:36:07.

But his profile in the media could not be worse,

:36:08.:36:12.

and his party's polling is, frankly, dire.

:36:13.:36:13.

Now, with Theresa May seemingly about to confirm that we will leave

:36:14.:36:16.

the European single market, there's no shortage

:36:17.:36:18.

Can I start with that one? Yellow mat good morning. How are you? Very

:36:19.:36:31.

well, thank you. Theresa May will say that we should leave the single

:36:32.:36:35.

market and the customs union - what is your reaction as Leader of the

:36:36.:36:39.

Opposition? She seems to be heading in the direction of a bargain

:36:40.:36:42.

basement economy on the shores of Europe, with low corporate taxation,

:36:43.:36:48.

where we will lose access to half our export markets. It seems an

:36:49.:36:51.

extremely risky strategy and I think there needs to be more discussion,

:36:52.:36:56.

consultation, and recognise that there is a close economic

:36:57.:36:58.

cooperation with Europe that will have to continue when we are outside

:36:59.:37:02.

the EU. And you have read this morning that Philip Hammond has

:37:03.:37:06.

suggested or implied that if we don't get access to those markets,

:37:07.:37:11.

we could cut corporation tax in this country quite dramatically and be a

:37:12.:37:16.

low tax alternative to the EU. It seems to be a threat, saying, if you

:37:17.:37:23.

don't give us what we want, we will become this strange entity on the

:37:24.:37:27.

shores of Europe with low levels of corporate taxation, designed to

:37:28.:37:35.

undermine the effect of the EU. It seems a recipe for a trade war with

:37:36.:37:39.

Europe, which isn't a sensible way forward. So, trade war, a risky

:37:40.:37:44.

option, and at bargain basement economy. This is all triggered by

:37:45.:37:49.

Article 50, which Labour will vote for. The referendum voted to leave

:37:50.:37:54.

the EU. That, Parliament has to live with and work around, so we won't

:37:55.:37:58.

plot Article 50, but we will make the point very clearly in the run-up

:37:59.:38:02.

to the vote about the question of access to European markets, and of

:38:03.:38:08.

course, there will have to be cooperation on things like

:38:09.:38:10.

environmental regulation, consumer rights, all those operations with --

:38:11.:38:15.

all those issues where we have to cooperate. You know now that she's

:38:16.:38:20.

heading for a version of Brexit that is disastrous... It has been

:38:21.:38:25.

trialled this morning about a speech she is yet to give. So you don't

:38:26.:38:31.

believe it? I'm not saying that, but sometimes the media frenzy can get

:38:32.:38:34.

slightly ahead of the facts. We will find out in the middle of the week.

:38:35.:38:39.

If that is the case, that taking us to a version of Brexit that you

:38:40.:38:44.

think is disastrous, why are you saying, there is the cliff edge,

:38:45.:38:50.

let's march towards it? We're not saying that. Parliament voted to

:38:51.:38:53.

have a referendum, a decision was made, and we have to work around

:38:54.:38:57.

that. The question is how the negotiations are conducted and what

:38:58.:39:02.

the destination is. That is why I have reached out to colleagues

:39:03.:39:06.

across Europe, and we're having a large conference of Socialist

:39:07.:39:10.

parties across Europe in order to build alliances. Remember, the

:39:11.:39:14.

Brexit vote is not one-off thing. It has to be agreed by 27 parliaments,

:39:15.:39:19.

agreed by the European Parliament. There is a long way to go. You think

:39:20.:39:24.

European countries could block the version of Brexit Theresa May wants?

:39:25.:39:29.

I think many European countries would want to maintain links between

:39:30.:39:34.

universities in their country and Britain, maintain that trade

:39:35.:39:38.

relationship. An awful lot of industries - think of the big names

:39:39.:39:42.

in Britain, Rolls-Royce, Airbus and so on - and they rely on a British

:39:43.:39:50.

cooperation. Is there anyway at all after Article 50 triggered that you

:39:51.:39:53.

think you can get your version of Brexit through the House of Commons?

:39:54.:39:59.

It will have to keep coming back to the House of Commons, and we will

:40:00.:40:02.

make sure it does. I know there is a court case is going on at the

:40:03.:40:06.

moment. We will keep pressing the Government on this. And there are

:40:07.:40:09.

MPs in all parties who must be concerned about the future of

:40:10.:40:13.

industries in the constituencies, about future trade relationships we

:40:14.:40:17.

will have, and also, what kind of trade arrangements we will have with

:40:18.:40:20.

the rest of the world in the future. If we are part of the customs union,

:40:21.:40:31.

then trade is done via that. If we are not, we have to start making our

:40:32.:40:34.

own trade arrangements, which will be the first time Britain has done

:40:35.:40:36.

that in 40 years. Forgive the cliche, but is there a majority in

:40:37.:40:39.

the House of Commons, if Labour wants with other parties, for soft

:40:40.:40:44.

Brexit? The majority of people in the House of Commons are very

:40:45.:40:46.

concerned about the implications of our Brexit that leads us into the

:40:47.:40:51.

Philip Hammond area of bargain basement on the shores of Europe

:40:52.:40:54.

economy. There are people who are worried, on the points I've made,

:40:55.:40:59.

about universities and education, and about the practicalities of it

:41:00.:41:04.

all. Clearly, air pollution is an issue, so was management of this

:41:05.:41:13.

cease and fishing -- of our seas. It sounds unlikely, but you made a

:41:14.:41:19.

speech this week which has a whiff of Donald Trump about it, I whiff of

:41:20.:41:25.

politician and politics are rigged against the ordinary Joe. Is it the

:41:26.:41:33.

hair? It needs to change. I have got my own. A quote: The people who run

:41:34.:41:40.

Britain had been taking the people for a ride and have stitched up our

:41:41.:41:44.

political system to protect the power. It is a big charge - what do

:41:45.:41:50.

you mean by it? The wealthy in this country out sure and outsource their

:41:51.:41:56.

profits into tax havens. We have been privatising services for a very

:41:57.:42:00.

long time. We have a growing gap between the richest and poorest, and

:42:01.:42:03.

we have a political system that leaves an awful lot of people

:42:04.:42:10.

behind. That, surely, was one of the messages in the EU referendum

:42:11.:42:16.

campaign, and in some areas, in the low participation in elections. You

:42:17.:42:21.

said the political system itself is rigged or stitched up - what is it

:42:22.:42:26.

about the system that is stitched up? We have a House of Lords that is

:42:27.:42:30.

dominated by a small number of people from London and the

:42:31.:42:33.

south-east. Would you get rid of it? I want unelected second chamber that

:42:34.:42:39.

is representative of all nations and regions in the United Kingdom. It is

:42:40.:42:42.

very important. It should have an electoral mandate. Abolition of the

:42:43.:42:47.

House of Lords and its replacement by our elected -- by an elected

:42:48.:42:55.

second chamber? Yes. It is not a new idea. It has been debated for a long

:42:56.:43:00.

time. It is not in a manifesto of yours. I would like to get there by

:43:01.:43:06.

2020. An interesting speech was made on Friday about the need for more

:43:07.:43:10.

political representation of the north of England. Absolutely. We

:43:11.:43:15.

will continue these discussions in Scotland on Friday. We are setting

:43:16.:43:19.

up a constitutional convention so that whenever the general election

:43:20.:43:23.

is, there will be some degree of consensus about the kind of

:43:24.:43:30.

constitutional structures we are looking for. On that, if I might. A

:43:31.:43:32.

constitutional convention in Scotland led to the Scottish

:43:33.:43:35.

assembly, which led to the Scottish parliament. Would you like to see

:43:36.:43:38.

the same process in the North of England? Should there be a North of

:43:39.:43:42.

England Parliament? I think there is an appetite for a stronger form of

:43:43.:43:47.

regional Government in Britain, an electoral mandate to do that, but

:43:48.:43:50.

also the levels of investment have got to be shared out fairly across

:43:51.:43:57.

the country, and they are not. ?1900 per year is spent in the south-east

:43:58.:44:03.

of inward per year, ?300 in the north-east. That's not fair. The

:44:04.:44:08.

North is not getting a fair deal, and it might need a Parliament that

:44:09.:44:12.

the result? It could be stronger local Government, but there has to

:44:13.:44:16.

be much greater emphasis on the disparity between regions in

:44:17.:44:20.

Britain, the disparity between investment. There also has to be an

:44:21.:44:24.

issue, surely, about the gap between the richest and poorest and the

:44:25.:44:28.

amount of money that disappears into tax havens. Do you think you get a

:44:29.:44:34.

fair ride in the media, and is media ownership and issue? I don't think

:44:35.:44:35.

the media are fair, in many ways,

:44:36.:44:53.

particularly towards the Labour Party. An analysis done over the

:44:54.:44:55.

first year since the general election showed that over 80% of the

:44:56.:44:58.

print media was actively hostile to the Labour Party.

:44:59.:45:04.

We need to remove the levels of concentration of ownership in

:45:05.:45:11.

certain organisations. You would attack the Rupert Murdoch group...

:45:12.:45:24.

Rupert Murdoch taking over Sky completely for example is a problem.

:45:25.:45:30.

We would also explore the role of the BBC is an organisation that is

:45:31.:45:36.

supposed to educate, entertain and inform. We have been talking about

:45:37.:45:42.

the NHS and the crisis, and you say in terms of the Labour Party would

:45:43.:45:46.

find a long-term funding solution for the NHS, but that means nothing

:45:47.:45:50.

unless you tell us what it is and we have seen a poll in today's's papers

:45:51.:45:55.

saying that if people were told the specific hypothecated tax would go

:45:56.:45:59.

to the NHS, the majority would support that. Would you go down that

:46:00.:46:05.

route? I'm not generally in favour of hypothecated tax but obviously

:46:06.:46:11.

the party would consider and look at it. The reality is over the next

:46:12.:46:16.

four years there's going to be ?70 billion less than could be achieved

:46:17.:46:21.

because of cuts in corporate taxation and cuts in the top rate of

:46:22.:46:27.

taxation. Is that the kind figure the NHS needs over the next four

:46:28.:46:34.

years? The crisis in A departments is the symptom, not the cause of the

:46:35.:46:38.

crisis. I spent Friday afternoon talking to a group of GPs and what

:46:39.:46:43.

they go through. A ten minute appointment with a GP actually ends

:46:44.:46:48.

up with half an hour to an hour's work for GB doing other things as a

:46:49.:46:54.

result. It is too simple to attack GPs and very unfair. How much more

:46:55.:46:59.

does the NHS needs and how would you pay for it? We would stop the cuts

:47:00.:47:02.

that have taken place but above all we would put more money into social

:47:03.:47:08.

care, which needs several billion pounds more very quickly. ?2 billion

:47:09.:47:15.

as a figure being put by a number of people. The rise in council tax to

:47:16.:47:20.

pay for social care only raises 400 million, rather less than that, so

:47:21.:47:25.

you have to raise it by ending the corporate tax cuts. This is a really

:47:26.:47:29.

important moment in the history of the NHS. As long as I remember

:47:30.:47:33.

governments have been saying we have given the NHS enough money and

:47:34.:47:37.

oppositions have been saying no you haven't, but this is a moment when

:47:38.:47:42.

we have to think about the future of the NHS. We have said long-term

:47:43.:47:45.

funding solution, can I put it to you that it can be, should be, and

:47:46.:47:50.

under you would be a specific tax paid for by everybody to put the NHS

:47:51.:47:55.

into a good place and keep it there? We would guarantee the funding.

:47:56.:48:00.

Whether we would have a specific tax, I doubt, but I would be

:48:01.:48:04.

prepared to discuss it. If you go down the road of hypothecated

:48:05.:48:09.

taxation, then you do it for every other service. That's an issue, but

:48:10.:48:13.

I would just say this, Labour founded the NHS and it's a point of

:48:14.:48:18.

principle in our society. It is a human rights get health care at the

:48:19.:48:23.

point of need. We have a lack of social care, and underfunding of the

:48:24.:48:28.

mental health service is putting a strain on A departments. The Prime

:48:29.:48:32.

Minister blames the GPs for this. Let's look at the overall issue of

:48:33.:48:37.

the lack of funding of the needs of often very vulnerable people. I

:48:38.:48:41.

thought you had already allocated the corporation tax money for

:48:42.:48:45.

education, you cannot allocate it twice. I gave you the figure, ?70

:48:46.:48:50.

billion that will be reduced from public income over the next four

:48:51.:48:54.

years because of the long-term effects of the cuts in corporation

:48:55.:49:00.

tax and profits tax. Why is it that when they are asked, do you trust

:49:01.:49:05.

Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party or Theresa May and the Tories to

:49:06.:49:10.

deal with the NHS crisis, more people back Theresa May and the

:49:11.:49:14.

Tories? That's disastrous for you. The more that people see the reality

:49:15.:49:21.

of the underfunding, the privatising of services, the outsourcing of NHS

:49:22.:49:25.

facilities, the more and more disappointed and angry they will get

:49:26.:49:29.

and they will understand the case we are making. We need to say

:49:30.:49:35.

centrestage, the NHS is about our mindset, our security, we are not

:49:36.:49:38.

frightened of getting ill in this country because we cannot afford to

:49:39.:49:42.

pay for it. In the USA, the first question you ask someone who is ill

:49:43.:49:48.

is what kind of health care insurance have you got? You have a

:49:49.:49:52.

bye election coming up in Stoke-on-Trent Central, that was a

:49:53.:49:59.

core Labour constituency. It was also a constituency which voted 70%

:50:00.:50:04.

to leave the EU, heavily on the immigration issue, and your policy

:50:05.:50:08.

on immigration is something that most people simply don't understand.

:50:09.:50:11.

You have said both that you are in favour of managed controlling

:50:12.:50:14.

immigration and also that you don't rule out changing it, it is very

:50:15.:50:19.

unclear what you really think. Do you think immigration in this

:50:20.:50:25.

country should come down? I want the end of exploitation of people, the

:50:26.:50:28.

undercutting and destruction of working conditions by the bringing

:50:29.:50:33.

in wholesale of workforces to destroy existing conditions, and

:50:34.:50:36.

also I would suggest that we think seriously about the contribution

:50:37.:50:40.

that migrant workers have made to this country in the NHS, in

:50:41.:50:45.

transport and education. And at this very moment the NHS is recruiting

:50:46.:50:49.

doctors all over Europe to try to fill the gap caused by the age

:50:50.:50:55.

profile of our existing GPs. Yes, we do need migrant workers in this

:50:56.:51:00.

country. Even if you put to one side the gang masters and recruitment

:51:01.:51:05.

going on in Poland, 82,000 from the EU came to this country without a

:51:06.:51:08.

job on their own last year to look for work because they thought they

:51:09.:51:13.

would have a better life. Is that too many? Would you like to see

:51:14.:51:18.

fewer such people? It will be part of the negotiations of access to

:51:19.:51:25.

Europe, if we have access to the single market there will be an issue

:51:26.:51:27.

surrounding that. I have been talking about ending the grotesque

:51:28.:51:31.

exploitation and the undercutting that goes on. Let's look at the

:51:32.:51:35.

issue of the flow of people in the context of access to the free

:51:36.:51:39.

market, but let's not blame migrants for the problems we have. Let's look

:51:40.:51:43.

instead at an economic system that has created these levels of

:51:44.:51:47.

inequality and injustice. So you seem to be saying both that you are

:51:48.:51:51.

in favour of some kind of control but also that you are against. Let

:51:52.:51:55.

me remind you what you said about this because it's an awful lot of

:51:56.:52:01.

words involved. You said, "Labour is not weighted to free movement of EU

:52:02.:52:07.

citizens as a point of principle but I don't want to be misinterpreted

:52:08.:52:15.

nor do we rule it out." What we are going to be doing is negotiating

:52:16.:52:19.

trade arrangement with to make sure that we are able to access those

:52:20.:52:24.

markets. It will involve people from Europe working here just as much as

:52:25.:52:28.

there are 2 million British people living and working in the European

:52:29.:52:33.

Union. Are we going to cut ourselves off from the European Union

:52:34.:52:39.

completely? I don't think so. When we talk about this you always talk

:52:40.:52:42.

about exploitation and economics but for an awful lot of people this is a

:52:43.:52:48.

matter of identity and culture. Do you accept that or do you think it

:52:49.:52:57.

is a form of racism? No, I think identity is an important thing. When

:52:58.:53:00.

they say communities are changing too fast, you don't get it? It is

:53:01.:53:06.

also a question of inclusion in that process so the Government for

:53:07.:53:10.

example cutting English-language classes is part of a problem. The

:53:11.:53:15.

lack of local authority funding leads to a blame culture which is

:53:16.:53:20.

unbelievably unfair on people. Let's instead look at the issues of how we

:53:21.:53:24.

develop our community as a society and look at the huge contribution

:53:25.:53:29.

made to our health service, education and local government by

:53:30.:53:32.

those who have come and live here, just like British people in France,

:53:33.:53:37.

Spain and Germany making a contribution there. "I Would like

:53:38.:53:41.

there to be some kind of high earnings cap quite honestly, lower

:53:42.:53:51.

-- quite honestly", do you believe that? I believe in the ratio concept

:53:52.:54:00.

we are putting forward. 20-1 is one being put forward. So nobody in the

:54:01.:54:06.

company earns more than 20 times... So the chief executive would be tied

:54:07.:54:10.

to the wage level of the lowest paid in the company. John Lewis

:54:11.:54:16.

partnership operate this. We would use its first fall in the public

:54:17.:54:18.

sector where it broadly applies at the moment but we would also use it

:54:19.:54:24.

as part of the procurement power of central government those companies

:54:25.:54:27.

that wish to do business with central government and wish to

:54:28.:54:30.

benefit from big levels of capital investment in projects all over the

:54:31.:54:36.

country. Make it a fairer Britain. It wouldn't apply to most private

:54:37.:54:42.

companies, the banks or engineering companies. I would like it too,

:54:43.:54:47.

that's why I've put the idea out there. It is a very popular idea, I

:54:48.:54:52.

was looking at an opinion poll this morning, not that I want to comment

:54:53.:54:55.

on opinion polls but I understand it is a popular idea and the word on

:54:56.:54:59.

the street I've heard is that people want to think about it and discuss

:55:00.:55:03.

it. We've had some interesting responses already, both from

:55:04.:55:07.

businesses, unions and individuals. To be clear, this wouldn't apply to

:55:08.:55:12.

people like footballers, pop stars... Footballers are not CEOs of

:55:13.:55:18.

their companies usually, but also, whilst they are paid ludicrous sums

:55:19.:55:22.

of money which I suppose we all pay for through our tickets, in reality

:55:23.:55:27.

they are employed for quite a short time with those clubs. Yes, you will

:55:28.:55:40.

be contributing to Mesut Ozil's ?15 million a year. Would you like to

:55:41.:55:53.

comment? Thanks coming are fantastic player, but can you live with what

:55:54.:55:57.

you got at the moment? His lovely player and it's a fantastic club.

:55:58.:56:04.

You have been clear in the past that you are against nuclear power and

:56:05.:56:07.

you want to see nuclear power stations decommissioned, is that

:56:08.:56:13.

your message to the voters of Copland? My message is the NHS is in

:56:14.:56:19.

crisis, your hospital is going to continue underfunded and

:56:20.:56:22.

understaffed and your A department is at risk. We will be protecting

:56:23.:56:27.

jobs in that area and we would also be trying to protect the pensions of

:56:28.:56:30.

those people that have worked so hard for so long to keep the nuclear

:56:31.:56:36.

industry safe. Are you against nuclear power? I want to see a

:56:37.:56:40.

mixture, a greater emphasis in the long term on renewables in the way

:56:41.:56:45.

Germany and other countries have done but we do have nuclear power

:56:46.:56:49.

stations, we have a nuclear base at the moment and that will continue

:56:50.:56:53.

for a long time. I say no to nuclear power, let's decommission the

:56:54.:56:56.

nuclear power stations, does Jeremy Corbyn still agree with himself? We

:56:57.:57:01.

have a mixture at the moment, nuclear power stations lost a very

:57:02.:57:06.

long time. Sellafield will be there for a long time as a reprocessing

:57:07.:57:10.

plant anyway, whatever happens. There's a big new development at

:57:11.:57:16.

Moorfield. That's being considered. Would you be happy for it to go

:57:17.:57:23.

ahead? I want an energy mix in this country, we have to make sure there

:57:24.:57:27.

is enough supplies and an energy platform so Moorfield is key to

:57:28.:57:30.

ensuring that happens but we have to have a much better energy mix,

:57:31.:57:36.

otherwise what we do? Go to coal-fired power stations or end up

:57:37.:57:41.

with energy shortages. The party is way behind in the opinion polls, you

:57:42.:57:45.

are behind in the opinion polls, you a series of by-elections in court

:57:46.:57:54.

Labour seat. If you don't win Copland and Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:57:55.:57:59.

you are toast, aren't you? No, our party will fight very hard. But

:58:00.:58:06.

things are not getting any better. You are making the assumption that

:58:07.:58:10.

everything is a problem, it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity to

:58:11.:58:13.

challenge the Government on the NHS and challenge them on the chaos of

:58:14.:58:17.

Brexit, an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage and

:58:18.:58:23.

zero hours contracts. Is there ever a moment you look in the mirror and

:58:24.:58:29.

think, I've done my best but this might not be for me. I think let's

:58:30.:58:34.

go out there and try to create a society where there are

:58:35.:58:37.

opportunities for everyone, where there is and homelessness, where

:58:38.:58:40.

there are houses for everyone and young people are not frightened of

:58:41.:58:43.

going to university because of the debts they will end up with at the

:58:44.:58:48.

end of their course. And I'm the man to do it. Jeremy Corbyn, thank you

:58:49.:58:49.

very much indeed. Next week, I'll be joined

:58:50.:58:52.

by the Liberal Democrat And the wonderful opera

:58:53.:58:56.

singer Joyce DiDonato.

:58:57.:59:00.

Interviews with key newsmakers and cultural figures, and a look at what is happening in the world this week. Andrew Marr's guests include leader of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn and actor Timothy Spall. The newspapers are reviewed by Ayesha Hazarika, Esther McVey and Paul Waugh.