19/03/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Theresa May now has her finger hovering over the button

which will take us out of the European Union.

As she prepares to hit it, all four of her living predecessors

are standing in the wings watching on in horror.

But, of course, it's far too late for any of them

to do anything about it. Or is it?

And that's really the central question.

Tony Blair is back making a new intervention in British politics.

I'm also joined by Britain's most popular political leader,

after a week which has seen Edinburgh and London in a fierce war

of words over Scotland's next independence referendum.

But we're not forgetting the wild dramas of American politics.

I'm joined by Mark Thompson, one time Director General of the BBC,

but now the Chief Executive of the New York Times.

What's it like being on the receiving end

You might think this all needs satire rather

than conversational examination, but the political comics are thin

on the ground compared to the Thatcher years.

I've been talking to Griff Rhys Jones, 35 years

on from Not The Nine O'Clock News, about his old comedy

partner, Mel Smith, and about his return to the stage.

And we'll be ending this week's show - as usual -

Reviewing the news this morning, the Scottish commentator

The man responsible for nailing the Conservatives over

their election expenses scandal, Michael Crick of Channel 4 News.

And attempting to keep us all in check, Amanda Platell

That's all after the news read for us this morning by Tina Daheley.

Tributes are being paid to the rock and roll pioneer Chuck Berry,

who's died at the age of 90 at his home in Missouri.

David Sillito looks back at his life.

# Deep down in Louisiana close to new Orleans

# Way back up in the woods among the evergreens

# There stood a log cabin made of earth and wood

# There lived a country boy called Johnny B Goode.

# There's a jumping little record I want my jockey to play...

If any one person could claim to have invented rock and

Take rhythm and blues, mix it with country and then add

electric guitar and sing about the stuff that

Half of the young people go to school.

And I wrote about the life. Half of the people have cars.

And mostly all people, if they're not now, they'll

Charles Berry was born in St Louis, Missouri.

As a teenager he spent time in prison for

He married young, trained as a hairdresser.

It was Muddy Waters who suggested he record a

Of course he was only one of many rock and roll pioneers.

And another spell in prison, a conviction for

immorality with a 14-year-old girl, halted his career.

# Up in the morning and out to school...

When he re-emerged, he discovered that his sound was

America. He was though something of a loner.

He would often turn up and play with whoever was around.

Sometimes he wouldn't even hand out a set list.

He knew everyone would know the songs.

And he wasn't always easy to get on with.

But as John Lennon said, "If you wanted to give rock

and roll another name, you might call it Chuck Berry."

NHS services are facing a 2mission impossible" to meet the standards

required by the Government - that's according to the organisation

NHS Providers says the money allocated for the next financial

year is not enough to meet growing patient demand, and targets like

And you can see an interview with the chief executive of NHS

Providers, Chris Hopson, on the Sunday Politics

Victims of sexual assault won't have to go through the ordeal of giving

evidence in court under changes being brought forward

From September, the cross-examination of alleged victims

will be pre-recorded and played to the jury.

It follows a trial involving child victims who said the system made

them feel less pressured and better able to recall events.

North Korea's state media says its military has tested a new

The announcement came during a visit to China

by the US Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson.

Mr Tillerson told China's President Xi Jinping that President Trump

looks forward to "enhancing understanding" between

The Parliamentary Committee on Standards in Public Life

is to examine the practice of MPs taking other jobs, at

The committee will discuss whether the rules need to be

tightened after the former Chancellor, George Osborne,

was announced as the new editor of the London Evening Standard.

Mr Osborne says he intends to stay on as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,

The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

And I'm sure many Tory MPs are issuing warm Private banks to Mr

Osborne for that change. A disturbing story about a new drug

being linked to birth defects and the shadow of the word thalidomide

is hanging over that story. Also, the Chancellor in trouble from

Brexit ministers. The Sunday Times has a story about changing the law

to allow rape victims to give evidence by video rather than in

court. And George Osborne scuppers second jobs for MPs. The Observer

has a cross-party alliance forming to fight Theresa May on grammar

schools. She is in a bit of trouble from Tory backbenchers. Another

picture of the great Chuck Berry. Finally, The Mail on Sunday, and

abortion story saying let mothers abort babies of the wrong sex. A new

scandal, they say. Lots of pictures of the Duchess of Cornwall in all of

the papers. Let's start with the big political news of the week, the

fight between Edinburgh and London over the second Scottish

Independence Referendum. Nicola Sturgeon saying, here is my

timetable. Theresa May saying, no, you can't do that. It has become

personal quite quickly. It is quite extraordinary. Handbags at dawn.

Both of these women you thought were mild-mannered. Now we have a war of

words. It's quite interesting if you look at it from a north of the

border perspective. Newspapers just can't stop defining women by their

footwear. The Sunday Times has put together a rather nice one. Probably

the more relevant one is the Sunday Herald front page. It refers to

Nicola Sturgeon's speech yesterday and it says there will be a second

referendum. Most people agree there are now well. Timing is everything.

Does it happen after we have left the EU or before? Is this because

the Scottish government want for there to be some possibility of a

back door re-entry to the EU if they have the area referendum? Whereas

once we have left, that is it. Absolutely. It wasn't an accident,

that window. At that point, according to Nicola Sturgeon, we

will know pretty well what the shape of Brexit will look like. But

crucially the UK would not be outside the EU. She hopes that gives

her enough wiggle room to stay within, maybe not within the EU, but

access to the single market, perhaps. Andrew Roberts the caught

your eye in the Observer. He is interesting. It makes the point that

here are two women who have the Dial set to caution. Both have taken huge

gambles not just with their parties and the union, but with their own

career. None of them can afford to lose a Scottish referendum. Very

interesting. We now have on cue, Gordon Brown. John Major writing in

the papers. Tony Blair on the programme. Gordon Brown with a new

proposal for a new federal system of Britain? Sounds like we have been

here before. Gordon Brown basically saying that rather than

independence, Scotland should have more devolution. I think Gordon

Brown has said that the number previous occasions, notably the Val

just before the 2014 referendum. -- avowal. This time he says further

powers to be transferred to the Scottish government might be the

setting of VAT rates, the power to set international treaties and

control over fisheries etc. There will be hardly anything left,

really. I must ask Ruth, is this a flyer? Della Mark Wright don't think

so for a moment. This is on a loop. We have had this before. The other

thing to bear in mind is if these ideas were to be enacted, they would

have to be enacted by a Labour government. Reading the polls there

doesn't seem to be one coming along very soon. Can I just say that it is

quite bizarre and quite ironic that the people who brought us Brexit are

talking about how divisive referenda are, how they bring uncertainty. I

mean, please. Amanda, you have a story from the Sanaa. -- the sun

newspaper. This is Ruth Davidson saying she -- showing she wants to

remain in the European Union. Best line of attack was that Nicola

Sturgeon and Alex Salmond have been storming the barricades but not

minding the shop. She claims Nicola Sturgeon has overspent by ?1

billion. They are struggling with schools, hospitals, farmers, all

these key areas that she -- that part of what she's doing tactically

is trying divert attention away from domestic chaos. Michael Crick, you

are a bad man, you have caused a lot of trouble for the government in the

past weeks and months, and you lead the way on the battlebus macro

story, which has resulted in this large fine. There is a big spread in

The Mail on Sunday. This was a story about how, at the 2015 general

election, and in three by-elections, the Conservatives spent a lot more

than the rules allowed them in winning certain constituency

campaigns. In the 2015 general election, that applies in South

Thanet, where they were trying to stop Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader,

becoming an MP. And in a couple of dozen marginal seats around England,

sometimes against the Liberal Democrats, sometimes against Labour.

They went around the country with these battle buses, with volunteers

on board, Nottingham up on hold -- in hotels. The real expense wasn't

the bus but the Hotel bills. They claim it was nothing to do with the

campaigns. If you promote a local candidate, tell everybody what his

policies are, that counts as a local expense. They tried to claim it was

a national expense. This week the electoral commission have said the

local expense claims were not high enough and they find the party

nationally. In the past there have been transgressions but nobody has

done battlebus was on this scale. In the past they have just taken the

leaders around or the deputy leader. What has never happened before is

taking vast numbers of activists around the country and putting them

up in hotels, in some cases booking two hotels. We have had the fine

from the electoral commission. Police forces are investigating. Do

you think this will lead to by-elections? Theresa May's majority

is not enormous. It could lead to a few by-elections. 12 police forces

have said -- sound files of evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service is.

They cover a couple of dozen MPs. In some cases you may see a

prosecution. South Thanet must be a big candidate. The evidence is

compelling. And interestingly, today The Mail on Sunday have done more on

South Thanet. They say one of Theresa May's key advisers, Nick

Timothy, they say that he was rewarded for his work on that

campaign by being allowed back on the Conservative candidates list.

Ruth Davidson, you have got a story. Ruth Wishart, sorry! You did say

Ruth Davidson due too much caffeine! You wait for ages for one former

Prime Minister to come along, and this week we have three in quick

succession. John Major is feeling quite sore at having been sandbagged

by the Brexiteer is. He is saying, the deal offered by the holy Trinity

of Brexiteers is a very bad deal indeed and if we have to rely on WTO

tariffs and all of that, a lot of Britain's industries will go down

the tubes. He is saying it is time for Theresa May to get out from

under that kind of pressure from the right wing of the Conservative

Party. He has got a constituency to talk to.

Meanwhile Theresa May was under George Osborne in the Evening

Standard. This is the other amazing story. It is amazing. It is just

absolutely extraordinary. We have got almost immediately that the news

broke I was having all of these senior backbenchers texting me

saying this is George's vendetta against Theresa May. It has caused a

lot of amusement, partly because... It must be worrying the Tory party

as well. It is, a piece in the Sunday Times talks about this saying

it gives him an effective platform to attack her and attack her, he's

not a forgiving man and she did unceremoniously sacked him. A lot of

people are saying how on earth. Rod Liddle has done a brilliant piece in

the Sunday Times... He does divide opinion, but he is saying what on

earth does George Osborne know about editing a newspaper? If he thinks he

can do it before breakfast, then go off and do his moneymaking... I

remember being relatively busy! Maybe I would have been more

successful if I hadn't gone into the office so much! I have edited

newspapers myself, it is a seven day a week, 24 hour a day job. I think

he did edit the university magazine at Oxford. But only once! It is not

a heavily resourced newspaper, it will require a lot of ideas. And

have the advertisers kept onside? The guy in charge of MPs having

second jobs is now investigating this and will take second jobs away

from lots of other MPs who are not earning huge amounts of money like

George Osborne so he won't be popular at home. The Sunday Express

has a story suggesting the Tories are preparing for an early election,

do you have any faith in this story? Is it true? No, I don't, it has been

bubbling along Saint Theresa May became Prime Minister. They are

suggesting the row about election spending is one good reason why

calling an election would be in her interest, apart from the fact she

only has a Commons majority of 17. A bit more if you add in the

Democratic union is from Northern Ireland. And she will have Michael

Crick running after her! If she was to have a general election, what

would they do about these MPs being investigated by police? Would they

say, right, you cannot be candidates, which would cause an

outcry? Or carry on with them as candidates which would be equally

problematic. I don't see it happening. We have covered a heck of

a lot and run out of time so thank you very much indeed.

What does Donald Trump think about that famous American

They are the "enemy of the American people".

And that's on the mornings when he wakes up feeling chirpy.

Mark Thompson was Director General of the BBC and is now CEO of this

Mark, sad. He came to lunch with us just before Christmas and that

morning it was the failing NYI several times. By the time he left

he told the media in the lobby that we were a jewel for America and the

world. I wonder why the New York Times has been so much in the cross

hairs of his anger. Is it because he is a New Yorker and he feels hurt

that New York's paper doesn't love him back? In the end you will have

to ask him, when you get the chance. I think the boy from Queens, very

eager to be accepted by the New York establishment and the New York Times

as this citadel in Manhattan, that is part of it, but also I think

there is a systematic... Steve Bannon has talked about the true

opposition being the media, and I think the New York Times is regarded

as the height of the establishment media as well. The personal

biographical push as well... In a says you speak to the liberal and

financial elites of the West Coast... Nowadays we are reaching

150 million people a month, tens of millions of Americans who wouldn't

regard themselves as the part of that elite. Is there too much tooth

sucking in the fact that so many Americans voted for Trump and your

newspaper never thought it would happen, ridiculed him all the way

through, and now he is president? The -- it is very hard to predict,

New York Times did not predict the trunk victory, virtually no wonder

it. Even people in his own circle believed he would lose. Rather like

Brexit in this country. Over the course of 2016 and now 2017 we are

growing our audience and growing the number of people deeply engaging

with us so the idea we are cut off from the whole of the country is

undermined by the facts. Are you trying to listen more acutely to

West Virginia for instance? We've got reporters across the country and

of course I think trying to understand the underlying causes for

what's happening and trying to understand the worldview of people

who don't live on the two coasts of America, and also trying to explain

what's happening in America to the rest of the world because we are

seeing a spike in international audiences, partly because so many

people in other countries are intrigued. Do you wake up every

morning and look at your phone to see what he's tweeted overnight? He

seems to be the reader of a physical paper and that seems to be the

witching hour. The first time the President-elect directs a tweet

which is a direct attack not just on the editorial but the business news

of the times... Your audience is collapsing, not true, it is growing,

the first time it was a big event but now it is routine. This you have

written a lot about fake news and political language, isn't it the

case that trunk is a very cute political communicator? He uses the

tweets, short sentences to the point, gets his message across and

is very good at pushing news he doesn't like to one side? I wrote a

book last year specifically about political language and the way high

impact incredibly short, very compelling language was winning out

over the language of explanation and depth. Donald Trump turned up

essentially after I had written the thing but he epitomises the very

powerful, informal spontaneous tweets. They are emotionally pitch

perfect but they don't tell you much about policy. When it comes to the

story about GCHQ accusing him of being part of the attempt to

eavesdrop on Trump during the Obama administration, he has not

apologised for any of that? Not apologised but not retracted despite

a categorical denial by the British. I think the key thing is Donald

Trump seems to have a view that he can make things true by saying them,

and if he says them, innocence they have a validity and he doesn't

really accept that there is a common reality with common facts that we

are all bound by. Most conventional politicians... And there is a

categorical denial by GCHQ but he simply presses on. So you think he

is more of a fantasist than a liar? I think he has a view that he can

make things true, and if they are not true today he can make them true

tomorrow so it is a demonstration of his immense wealth and also a kind

of self obsession which is also very clear when you meet him. You went

from one kind of journalism to newspapers, what's your advice for

George Osborne? It's a perfect time to join the newspaper industry! I

have been an editor, admittedly in television rather than the print

media. My experience is done properly it is energetic and

time-consuming. It might be tricky to be an MP and a full-time editor

at the same time. You would have thought so but he's a man of many

gifts so let's see. Mark Thompson, thank you.

And so, for those of you who think that America doesn't really

It was nice and spring-like, very pleasant, until we were hit

by the backwash of the icy storms that hit New York and the rest

That's the kind of American import we don't want any more of.

Good morning, that storm system from America brought rain and there is

more rain in the forecast through the rest of today. All courtesy of

this wiggling weather front, and because it is whittling it is not

moving through quickly so from Northern Ireland, south-west

Scotland, north-west England, we will see a lot of rain today,

particularly through Cumbria. There may be surface water flooding, and

that band of rain divides southern areas where we will see largely dry

but cloudy and windy weather, mild temperatures in London, from

northern areas where it will be cool with a mixture of sunshine and

showers. Through tonight the rain band will have slid its way

southwards, then it reinvigorates heavy rain pushing back in, all the

while turning windy up towards the north-west. With the gales, some

pretty hefty downpours. At the same time rain sets in across a large

part of England and Wales. Brighter skies to the north but with the

continued threat of showers, some of those heavy and indeed wintry over

high ground in Northern Ireland and Scotland, turning chillier in the

north-west and for the week ahead the cooler weather will spread to

all parts of the country with a mixture of sunshine and showers so

nothing particularly springlike on the horizon, Andrew.

It's been a terrible week for the Tories -

chunks of the Budget being torn up, enormous fines from

the Electoral Commission, and a very bitter row

between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon

about Scotland's right to have a second

Ruth Davidson is leader of the opposition in Scotland

Good morning, Ruth Davidson. You said not so long ago that I actually

don't think Westminster saying no you cannae to a referendum would

play well and would damage the unionist cause, have you changed

your mind? Nicola Sturgeon said to have a fair referendum people in

Scotland need to know what they are voting for. It has got to be after

the Brexit situation has played out. I think it's astonishing that after

a two day conference, the SNP still haven't told us their vision after

dropping this bombshell on Monday. Nicola Sturgeon's timescale we will

know what the Brexit deal will be at that point so what's the problem

with the referendum? I don't accept that, on the grounds that we know

there will be a lot of powers that come back from Brussels, many

devolved to the Scottish Government, the same powers Nicola wants to hand

back to Brussels, so we won't know but we also don't know what

independence looks like. We have asked basic questions on things like

currency, the central bank, would we rejoin Europe as a full member, and

Nicola Sturgeon seems unable to commit to that. The other issue is I

don't think you can have another independence referendum if you don't

have public consent for it and the people of Scotland don't want it. We

have seen another poll today that shows the majority of people in

Scotland don't want this. I know it is hard, from 450 miles away,

Andrew, but I have to tell people at home, I know it is difficult because

I have read about it but we have to tell people the SNP is not Scotland

and they are acting for the wishes of people in Scotland and I have

read too many headlines saying Scotland reacts X or Y. Let me put

it to you that the SNP is nonetheless the Government of

Scotland and they were elected on a manifesto which said with crystal

clarity that if Scotland was taken out of the EU against her wishes,

that would be the material change which would signal another

referendum, and therefore whatever you think of Nicola Sturgeon, she is

sticking by him manifesto commitment.

She also lost her majority. And at that election campaign, she also

told the people of Scotland, directly, that if I don't change

people's minds on this, if I don't get people across the line to

independence, I will have no right to hold on. She looked down the

camera lens and said those words to the people of Scotland. She said if

she hadn't changed public opinion in Scotland she would have no right to

call it. What is your message to those people in Scotland who look at

the prospect of leaving the EU and agree with crashing the Scottish

economy and it been devastating for jobs and prosperity and the future

of the Scottish economy, and who wants to stay inside the single

market and 11 last chance to say, we don't agree with this, we want to go

in a different direction? You and your leader are taking the

possibility away from them. I would point to Theresa May's Lancaster

House speech were she said she wanted to pursue a free-trade deal,

to allow companies to trade within that single market as well as look

for a trade deals abroad. I would also point to the other 12 points in

Theresa May's plan. You wouldn't think it from the weight Nicola

Sturgeon is talking, but things like cooperation on crime and

intelligence, writes for EU migrants in the UK, these were things

specifically asked for by the SNP government that they will not

acknowledge were detailed in that Lancaster House speech by Theresa

May. Which haven't been included in the legislation that has just gone

through Parliament. Can you point me to a single actual change in policy

or direction that Theresa May has conceded to the Scottish government?

She said she would listen to Scotland, nothing would happen

without Scotland's say so. Since then there has been a deafening

silence. You have seen the joint ministerial Council meeting is going

on between the UK government and the devolved governments. I have

detailed four points out of the 12 point plan that were specifically

asked for by the SNP government. I know if Theresa May wrapped a pony

in a big bow and gave it to Nicola Sturgeon for her birthday, for some

reason that would not be enough. Slightly strange thing to do! These

things were specifically asked for by the Scottish government that have

been delivered and laid out by the UK government. Nicola Sturgeon may

not wish to acknowledge that but there is a reason for that. She is

hell-bent on the separation of this country. She wants to do it against

the majority wishes of the Scottish people. Let me move on... One more

point. We know that Brexit is only this week's excuse and they have

been plenty of excuses in the past. When Nicola Sturgeon was asked if

she would take an independent Scotland directly back in as a full

member of the EU if she wins independence, she refused to confirm

it. This is not about Brexit. This is about utilising whatever is to

hand to break up the UK. That has been her political mission for

entire life. She is leader of the SNP. It is not surprising. She is

also be First Minister and has a responsibility. She is the First

Minister of Scotland. She has a responsibility to all of Scotland

and she has renege on that responsibility. She followed the

narrow party objective, not the view of the people of Scotland who have

said time and time and time again they do not want dragged back to the

divisions of three years ago. They haven't changed their view on the

question they were asked and gave a clear answer on just three years

ago. It seems binary. Full independence or the status quo

inside the union. Gordon Brown has suggested a sort of third Way,

whereby a lot of those powers coming back to Westminster aren't grabbed

by London board are given to Edinburgh. Is this a way forward?

Gordon Brown is full of thousands of good ideas. It is ashamed that he

couldn't have implemented some of them as Prime Minister. Theresa May

has already made it absolutely clear there is no power that is currently

residing at Holyrood that will go anyplace else. And as powers are

returned to the UK Parliament from Brussels, they will be further

devolved. Asymmetric devolution I would expect. Scotland already has

competency over a wider range of issues than Stormont and the Welsh

Assembly. That is something we have to discuss and make sure we do in a

way that doesn't practically impede our own internal market in the UK.

That is why I'm talking about Brexit process, not just a date on which we

actually leave the EU. It has been a difficult week for your party. Some

high and low moments and some surreal moments. What did you think

when you saw George Osborne would be editing the London Evening Standard?

He is a better man than me. I spent ten years as a journalist and six

years as a politician. I'm not sure you can combine both. I work a busy

week as it is, this week in particular. I'm not sure you can do

both at the same time. John Major as one Theresa May not to become

captured by the so-called hard Brexiteers. Clearly the Chancellor

is having a pretty torrid time at the moment. You concerned there is a

growing war inside your party to push out anybody, including people

like you, who are not as hard as hard can be on Brexit? No. I don't

think there is anybody pushing me, and they would get shoved back

pretty hard if they tried, and I think the idea that anybody could

capture Theresa May is probably someone who doesn't know to reason

may very well. She knows her own mind. Thank you for talking to us.

Thank you. For almost four decades,

Griff Rhys Jones has been one of the best known faces on British

TV, whether in comedy - alongside the much-missed Mel Smith -

or as the presenter of hugely He's back on stage in London

starring as The Miser As Harpagon, the penny-pinching

father, Griff plays an outrageous But given your respective ages,

Papa, should you not marry Anne and I shall marry Mariane

and he will marry Anne. No, I shall marry

Mariane and he, marry, And marry, if he won't marry Anne,

you can't marry Mariane Apparently it was a sort of try

out, and his intention was to take this comedy

and turn it into a more classically oriented piece,

to write it in verse. But it went so well, it was so funny

for the audience that watched it, that he started

basically to leave it be and not In one sense what you do

is you take Moliere There's bottom jokes and things

falling off the wall jokes. Yes, but I have to say

this, which is really weird, when you come down

to say it's freely adapted and that sort of thing,

all the silliest jokes are Moliere. The wine stuff, the wine

being thrown over everybody, that's Moliere.

That's absolutely as it is. The money on a string,

that's Moliere. The money buried underneath

the tomato plants, that's actually So there's a sense that almost

all the silliest jokes In terms of the message,

your character, Harpagon, he is the man classically more

in love with his money and presumably all that means,

than with his family or other And the really hard thing

for you is we have to have sympathy for Harpagon, your

character, but he is disgusting. He's the old hunched man

who figures in a lot of his plays and was usually

played by Moliere himself. Now this character, as it

were, presents the idea of the problems and the beliefs and

the assumptions that a lot of late That everybody's out to get hold of

their money, their children are wastrels, not doing anything

with themselves. And as I say, Harpagon is quite

a grotesque character. You pull out the false

teeth, you don't quite turn out your eyes,

but he's pretty hideous. Just explain why you are wearing

that little beanie at the moment? Well at one point

we talk about wigs. He has a wig which he

made himself when the At another point he's asked to talk

about his hair and he takes off his wig to reveal

that he has a very... When we discussed this, at one point

they suggest, "Why don't we put on a bald wig and then you can put

the wig on top of that, then you can be bald and spend two hours

every day in make-up?" I said, "No, it's all right,

I'll shave it and go around So I have to wear a hat

to avoid giving the Now we've seen you a lot

on telly and so forth. Last year you did a one-man show

talking about your own life, and you talked

about Mel Smith. It's four years now,

I think, since he died. Again, will you ever,

do you think, have somebody with whom you work so closely,

with that extraordinary I have to say that Mel

was the most fantastic person And I'm by nature,

a little bit hyper. But Mel was always the most

steady and wonderful He was always the most

generous of actors. Oh, come on, you've got some

lovely kids, haven't you? I hear the oldest one

has got into Oxford? If I wanted to say to Mel, "Well,

if you'd did that it would make it funnier", or if he wanted

to say to me, "I think we should do this", or whatever,

there was always a sense that it was able to be done

with absolutely no forethought at all, that we would talk about

what we did. So ruthless immediate

mutual criticism? Sort of like that sort of sense

of being able to work with It's very strange when

you walk into a play, you have to be careful

when you approach other actors, just to say, "I wonder

if you did this..." Everybody, it's not that nobody

doesn't really wants to do it, they do sort of,

they do walk around... But I tell you what's

interesting, my main servant is And Lee is a disruptive

force in the play, Well, they do say how

you got a padlock on your purse and that you have

deliberately lost the key. And about how you took a mouse

to court for nibbling on a And how you re-plastered

the whole of your house in porridge, which is true,

and accounts for that bit of jam His sort of naughtiness,

that's the most important thing. That sense of naughtiness

that carries through Lee all the way through the play,

actually really enlivens the play Griff Rhys Jones, thanks very

much for talking to us. And that new adaptation of The Miser

is at London's Garrick Theatre Now, coming up later this morning,

Andrew Neil will be joined by Nick Clegg, the former leader

of the Liberal Democrats. And he'll be discussing claims

of a health crisis with the senior That's the Sunday Politics

at 11 here on BBC One. Tony Blair is launching

a new policy institute. He argues that globalisation -

frankly, the world we are living in right now -

has produced a backlash of angry And he wants to do

something about it. Just saying that raises so many

questions, Mr Blair. Can we start by talking about

globalisation itself? Many people would say that is a series of

decisions which happened at least on your watch, the deregulation of

international banking and so forth, the deregulation of labour markets,

mass immigration, and that people are making a justified kickback to

things they find very disturbing and change that has happened in many

communities simply too quickly? Yes, and I think this is exactly the

context for having the debate. Globalisation in my view is not

ultimately a decision by government. It is an unstoppable force that is

driven by technology, trade, travel, migration. And it's going to carry

on. However, governments can respond. You say unstoppable. It's

not an act of God. These decisions are taken by human beings. If people

don't like it they can presumably slow it down? Absolutely. But it is

a decision taken by human beings and not just governments. This is

important. If you look at the last 30 years of human history, more

people have been lifted out of poverty than ever before, there have

been enormous advances in how we live and how we work, and how we

operate. But there have also been real stresses and strains. You can

see that economically through the displacement of jobs. And you can

see it culturally through anxiety over issues like immigration. My

view is simply that the best way of dealing with this and pushing back

against the populism left or ride is for the central round to renew

itself as the place where you protect yourself against the dangers

of globalisation, and allow people to access the benefits. If you go

into anti-globalisation mode, you will do immense damage economically

and culturally. I think it is fair to say that you were a cheerleader

of globalisation in the old days and when it came to things like the

failure to regulate the banking system, opening the gates to very

fast and big EU immigration, a lot of people will look at you and say,

that is the person responsible for a lot of things going wrong with my

life now? The financial crisis was a crisis in the financial markets that

came about principally because as globalisation took root, there were

new financial instruments. People didn't understand their

interrelationship. After the financial crisis, which happened

worldwide, all governments have taken steps to regulate the

financial sector more effectively. You must have thought, I wish we

understood what was going on then? Absolutely. If you want to pin the

failure of what happened at the time on people like me, do. It doesn't

invalidate the process of global immigration. Can I ask you about the

immigration decision, which was important around Brexit? Did you

know as Prime Minister when you allowed so many people to, growing

so quickly, how many people would come in and the effect it would have

on communities in the UK? No, we didn't know the numbers. It is

important to realise two things. When these countries joined the

European Union, and very important for us that they did join, imported

for Security and the economy. There was freedom of people immediately.

We could have delayed for four years their ability to come here and work.

We didn't. It's true. The economy was in a different position in 2004.

The majority of EU immigration came after 2008.

One of the tragedies of Brexit is that we think the enlargement of the

European Union was some sort of error. It was a bipartisan policy of

both governments that has done great benefit to this country overall. The

other thing about that whole period of New Labour politics and what

followed was there was a lack of trust in politics. We saw the 2008

crash and people are still suffering hard after that but also a whole

series of scandals, weapons of mass destruction and so forth. I was a

journalist at the time and I felt misled by that, do you think your

government was partly responsible for what has been called the

collapse of the centre? We can go over the individual issues around

trust and so on and we have many times but I don't think that's what

has collapsed support for the centre ground. I think the centre ground

has got to be more critical. Why then in that case? Because we have

got to be managers of the status quo. If we don't provide answers,

others will ride anger... Just before we do, do you acknowledge

there was damage done to the body politics during your period and that

people who are suspicious of the elites, the Metropolitan elites, are

partly looking at what happened during your years in Government? I

accept that to a degree but I think this is often used as a reason for

advancing policies that are really nothing to do with the so-called

issue of elites. If you take the question of Brexit, there are people

who are elite on either side of the argument. They use the issue of

elites to say this is why you have got to vote for this particular form

of politics. The important thing I want to do with this institute is

developed a modern policy agenda for the centre ground which can be used

by people in the front line of politics, I'm not in the front line,

I'm not back into the front line, but to save these other types of

things we should be talking about. For example on jobs how do you deal

with the new wave of technology? This is the big question for the

British economy in the years ahead. I would like to talk more about

Brexit because they say the elites and you say populism, what is wrong

with populism? There is nothing wrong with populism provided it is

giving answers. What is the real tragedy with Brexit? If you take the

issues that will define this country in the future, and there were

stalking a moment ago about technological change, and this is

directly relevant to Brexit, that is what you concentrate on. We have

fresh news the NHS is teetering on the point of collapse, we are not

dealing with this issue. Even if you want to deal with immigration,

Brexit doesn't deal with the main issue of immigration which is non-EU

immigration. If you want to push back against this populism you have

got to address the people with a policy agenda that convinces them

you have answers to the accelerating pace of change. A lot of people you

say are the victims of populism are voters making rational decisions.

They say there has been too much migration, my community has been

changed to quickly, too fast, the differential pay gap in this country

has become too much, I want more control, stronger borders and this

is how to get it. It is a rational decision if it's true that getting

out of Europe will solve those problems. The issue on Brexit is

this, there has been a referendum and that is the will of the people,

but here is the issue, if you analyse immigration from Europe,

according to government ministers, we want to keep the majority of

those people coming in from Europe. We want to keep the people who have

come here with a job, their dependents... So you feel voters

will feel let down? We cannot tell what will happen. A few weeks ago in

the House of Commons David Davis said they were going to deliver a

deal with, and I quote, exactly the same benefits as we now have from

the single market and Customs union. We should hold them to that and my

view very simply, I agree at the moment the argument for many people

is over, but if as you go down this path the British people realise

three things than I think it could change. One, that the gain is

illusory, two that the pain is substantial, and three that the

destruction of the Government and country in the meantime is enormous

when there are these big real challenges on the economy, in health

care, education, immigration that aren't being dealt with. But there

isn't at the moment the mechanism to deal with the change of heart. You

are not suggesting having another referendum, or are you? I'm not

suggesting that at this point. This will all depend on whether members

of Parliament are going back to their constituencies and noticing

real pressure with people saying, hang on, I didn't know this is what

it meant. For the last few months I have spoken to a range of people, if

it is permissible to still talk to experts, a range of experts on the

trade issue, I didn't understand how complicated this is going to be. If

they are going to try to deliver exactly the same benefits as we have

now on the single market and Customs union, this is an endeavour of

unparalleled complexity. What people have explained to me is that

normally in trade negotiations you talk about how you liberalise trade.

This is about how you dealer belies over 40 years of complex trading

arrangements -- how you de-liberalise. I think it is

possible... There will be a rebellion in Parliament which

changes direction. People will start saying, is this the thing that is

going to be important? You have been hostile to Jeremy Corbyn's

leadership of the Labour Party but don't you acknowledge that even if

Clem Attlee was leading it he would have had the same problem with

voters who were pro-Brexit, and therefore he took the right decision

in the House of Commons not to stop Article 50? I think the Labour Party

should have a simple position on Brexit and I don't think it is

difficult at all. I think what the Labour Party should say is we

believed in Remain, we acknowledge the people voted against that, we

acknowledge the Government have a mandate, but we will hold them to

the test they have set and if they do not pass that test, then we are

going to retain the right to represent the people of this country

should bear will change to offer them the option of staying,

particularly in the reformed Europe which should be the other part of

what the Government and opposition are doing, which is to investigate

with the rest of Europe the possibilities of reform. I don't see

what's difficult about that. You have launched effectively a think

tank. There's a lot of people out there, the 48%, the liberal minority

at the moment, people in the centre ground, very confused about what to

do. They don't feel they can vote for Jeremy Corbyn, they certainly

don't want to vote for the Conservatives, they don't have a

mechanism and you are not going to give them one. I am not interested

in... It is not for me to start... The way this start in my view is

with ideas and Brexit in truth as you rightly say in the context of

the interview is really part of the bigger issue about globalisation and

about what I think is the biggest political distinction today which is

open-minded versus closed minded in the light of globalisation. I think

we need to focus yes on Brexit but it's a much wider policy agenda and

it's really about saying how do we make sure that these economic and

cultural strains are best dealt with? Very briefly, any advice for

George Osborne now he's being a newspaper editor and an MP at the

same time? Is it doable? I don't know, but I think it's a great thing

for the Evening Standard, why not? He's a highly capable guy and it

should make politics more interesting. It certainly will.

Thank you for talking to us. Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme. In Cardiff at ten o'clock we are

debating populism, our Europe 's powerless taking control? Should

governments care how happy we are? And for giving and forgiveness, does

it set you free? Ten o'clock on BBC One.

Some of you will have been choking over your cornflakes,

others feeling a warm glow of nostalgia listening

If Mr Blair's looking for advice on how to mount a comeback,

Madness have a new album which has tickled the critics

Before we hear a song from it, here's a reminder

of the Nutty Boys in earlier years.

# Headmaster's breaking all the rules

# We talked and talked until it was light

Almost out of time. Thanks to all my guests.

Join us again at the same time next Sunday.

Don't forget, the clocks go forward next weekend.

From their twelfth studio album, Can't Touch Us Now,

# I've got another version of me

# I've got a car with a hands-free phone

# Oh well, I'm never free when somebody bothers me

It took us once to get through the novel Anna Karenina.