26/03/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

And a deranged man who fits no easy pattern.

Isn't the truth that sometimes it's completely impossible

And we need to learn to live with that unhappy fact.

True or not, Amber Rudd the Home Secretary has

lots of questions to answer about social media, radicalisation

and the proper balance between security and freedom.

Also with me the Tory peer

Sayeeda Warsi on British Islam - which she ironically

But, with Article 50 being triggered on Wednesday,

we'll be talking about that too, with Labour's Brexit

questioning David Tennant about love, death and eternal damnation.

That is very major question for a Sunday morning. What would my father

say? We have our own hells. with some appropriate Bach,

by that great violinist the human rights

barrister and Labour Peer Helena Kennedy,

Trevor Kavanagh, Associate Editor of the Sun, and Sarah Baxter,

deputy editor of Sunday Times. All that

coming up in a while. Police say they might never find out

why Khalid Masood killed four people near the Houses

of Parliament on Wednesday. Scotland Yard now say they believe

he was acting alone. The family of PC Keith Palmer

who was killed by Masood have released a statement,

thanking those who were 82 seconds. In that time, he caused

the death of three people and injured many more. He crashed the

car into the gates and stabbed PC Keith Palmer to death. His family

expressed their gratitude to the people who were with Keith in their

last moments. Police believe he carried out the

attack on his own but are trying to establish whether he was encouraged

by others. Questions Remain unanswered about his roots to

radical Islam. Since Wednesday, 11 people have been arrested. They've

all been released except the 58-year-old man from Birmingham. He

can be held without charge for 14 days. Members of the public have

come to the scene of the attack to pay their respects to the four

people who lost their lives and remember the many injured and who

Remain in hospital. More than 30 people have been hurt -

two of them seriously - after a suspected gas

explosion in Merseyside. A dance centre for children

was destroyed and customers at a Chinese restaurant were caught

in the blast in US Central Command says it has

opened an investigation into an air strike on the Iraqi city of Mosul

which is reported to have killed dozens of civilians

earlier this month. American officials have acknowledged

that US-led coalition aircraft took part in the attack

on part of the city controlled The United Nations has warned

of a "terrible loss of life". The government will set out details

of its plans to bring EU law into domestic legislation

on Thursday - the day after Theresa May is set to start

the formal Brexit process. The Great Repeal Bill

will bring EU regulations into domestic law, allowing them

to be amended or The bill will allow ministers

to alter regulations without the full scrutiny

of MPs and peers. In case you missed it,

the clocks went forward this morning and some people working in the UK's

tourism sector are calling The British Association

of Leisure Parks, Piers and Attractions says an extra 80,000

jobs will be created due It also says shifting time zones

would encourage more outdoor activity and cut obesity levels -

especially among children. The next news on BBC One

is at One o'clock. The words of the MPs who tried to

save him. 82 seconds, that is the entire time this attack took to play

out. The mail on Sunday, there is a story about Prince William's

helicopter coming close to being hit. They have gone with Ukip Civil

War is not news. The Observer said 150 deaths. Inside, they can peer

coalition strike with the way the Russians Acted. EU migrants will

keep their benefits after we leave the EU, which will break a party

manifesto pledge. Boris Johnson attacking disgusting Google over

terrorist connections. Let's start with Khalid Masood. The Sunday

papers have taken a breath and delved into the background of a man

who used to be known as Adrian. He was a Jack the Lad at school, very

popular, in a band, the lead figure. Popular with the ladies but always

with this hint of violence and menace and very quickly drawn into

petty crime. When we talk about the type of people who conduct acts of

terror, very often they are converts, people involved in drug

and drinks. And in prison as well. That is right. In prison, he was

radicalised, a couple of years later he was on his way to Saudi Arabia

and it is fascinating how fast that process happened. But he spent 20

years drifting around with different women, always very attractive, that

is his first partner, and his lovely daughter. He was brought up in very

small communities and you can see that he was the mixed race kid in

very white backgrounds. He spent a lot of time in East Sussex. Not

exactly brought up in one of those inner-city immunities that we are

told is the hotbed. If he was a lone wolf you can see that he was always

an outsider, the glass clone, popular but with his own set of

codes. If he is radicalised the question is how he is radicalised.

That brings us to social media. You've got an interview with Boris

Johnson who lets fly at Google. He gets very cross and says it is

disgusting, they need to stop making money out of prurient violence and

terror. They know personally we -- perfectly well that they are

harbouring and sheltering people who mean to do us harm. It is not just

terrorism, it is child pornography. Lots of filthy stuff. If the

American companies can be fined billions of pounds for oil spillage

is, surely we can do something on that level against Google? There is

a question of political will. She has a piece on social media firms

and that they've got to join the war on terror. We actually do have law

about violence and if you have, there is a piece in the mail, it is

a lesson in how to stab. Code you can kill someone who is wearing an

anti-stab vests. It is online. If somebody was doing that in a

classroom they would be arrested for inciting violence. So we do have

tools at our disposal at the media, it is something that politicians are

worried about taking on. Advertisers said they would not advertise with

Google if they are putting the stuff out. Slipped down to ?500 billion in

their share price. The truth is that you need to use your teeth if you're

Home Secretary and make the media know that this kind of stuff is not

possible. Should there be a change in the law? I think you've got stuff

in your disposal already and you just need to be fierce about using

it. You'd only need one prosecution. I don't like the idea of threatening

prosecution but you should except when it's necessary. I think showing

someone how to stab is crossing the line. You are endlessly attacking

people for attacking the media, but is a messaging service the media?

This is not the media, it is the electronic media. You would not get

this in the British press or the American press, this is online. But

nowadays there is so much power in those companies, it has shifted from

your old-fashioned world and even those media outlets now have such

incredible influence that people don't want to take them on. It is

not just that, they used to think they were super cool and would look

out of date if they intervened with these giants. The other government

was very cool, they had Google in and out. I think we've woken up to

the damage. There is also an attack on the tax situation. This may be

the beginning. Can we go back to this man, we are seeing a shift, the

attempt to recruit and make bombs has actually run into the sand and

they are needing to rely on sociopaths, people with serious

problems, who are outliers who are radicalised. It is very much on

their own. He went to Saudi Arabia. It is often people feel no forum in

their lives and suddenly a very limited, restrictive Islam provides

rules. There is a common than armies -- denominator. They leave school

and they become adults and they get into drug and drink. This applies to

all those involved in the massacres in the east. He was a heavy drug use

are pumping himself up on steroids. Yes, this is the point people will

not address. It happened with the terrorist who killed Jill Cox. -- Jo

Cox. He was poisoned with poisonous stuff around xenophobia. Shall we

say intranet stuff? There was a lot of debate in the referendum about

foreigners and he did not like that she was speaking passionately about

refugees. Break at the top of the programme, given some of these

people are individuals. They are individuals. All they need is a hire

car and a knife. Absolutely. And all they need is 80 seconds to do that

damage. We were promised an extra 1500 armed police officers but

recruitment is not going well. Indeed. One of the things that came

out is far from having armed police there, there were none. Apart from

the protection officers I complete coincidence. They were not even

routinely moving around the buildings. We have spoken a lot

about the terror attack. Let's move on to the Observer's coverage of the

EU demonstration. The estimates are always below the reality. Or the

reverse, maybe. I don't think so. It was a defiant demonstration against

Brexit. It was also saying, 48% of people who voted, not even the fool

electorate, really wanted to Remain in the Europe, the message from that

is the kind of excerpts reflecting the fact that people voted in the

majority to leave must be softer than what has been allowed for.

People were saying we want something different from what is being talked

about. As a Labour peer, isn't that an

example of Labour's weakness, that there has to be a demonstration

outside the gates of Parliament? I thought it was regrettable we didn't

take a much stronger position on the fact that actually this is going to

be... Hard Brexit is going to be very tough on ordinary folk, but

also middle-class people, that in fact people did not vote to be

impoverished. I haven't always been a fan of David Davis but he has been

one of the surprise success stories of this Brexit government. He is a

trained SAS killer who used to be known famously for... If he sort of

back he would starve it. He has come out as a harmonious figure, saying

this doesn't need to be a hard Brexit. -- if he saw a back he'd

stab it. Is the Europeans want to play at hard, we will end up with a

hard Brexit. There will be a deal allowing EU migrants to keep their

benefits... I mean this Government does seem to have an easier as far

as its original... Before we finally run out of time, the Ukip story, a

certain amount of amusement that Douglas Carswell was this unlikely

figure for Ukip, had a long war with Nigel Farage right the way through,

now he's out as an independent. And then war goes on. They have all

stabbed each other so many times there is literally not one person

left standing. It's a coincidence because we are on the eve of a great

bill and there is no point to Ukip any more whatsoever. They will

disagree, they have a very big week ahead. Thank you to all of you, very

interesting. Sayeeda Warsi, a former

minister in David Cameron's coalition government,

was the UK's first Muslim Now in the House of Lords, she's

an outspoken critic of her own party over its counter terrorism strategy

and policies towards She's just about to publish a book

about Muslims in Britain - Welcome, Baroness Warsi. In this

book you lay out the pattern of the kind of people who commit terror,

and actually in this latest case, Massoud seems to fit it neatly. And

one of the questions I have asked for a number of years now is what

makes a jihadi. There is so much expert intelligence out there,

academics, researchers, people who have studied deeply the lives of

these terrorists who say there can be anything up to about 28 different

reasons, different tell-tale signs and my argument has consistently

been that the Government has obsessively focused on one, which we

refer to as Islamist ideology, which is important but it is but one

factor. And this is an example of someone who was not born a Muslim

and convert relatively late in life and is radicalised in prison. If we

had a different way of searching for these people, what would it look

like? It is difficult to search for these people, in the past there has

been a narrative which says somehow Muslim communities know who these

people are amongst themselves, that somehow not only do they know them

but they are condemning them and maybe even sheltering them. What we

have seen in the terrorist attack from last week is it is incredibly

difficult. This is a young man born in a Christian home, a fairly

comfortable home, seemed to be giving a fairly good lifestyle, was

popular, then got involved in criminality. He didn't convert to

Islam until later in life, so he was a violent Christian long before he

was a violent Muslim. I'm not sure even his own family would know you'd

go on to commit such an extreme and so it is important to go back to

evidence -based policy making. Why is it that you get these damaged,

violence, often drug-taking young men, and they convert again and

again to Islam for they commit acts? They don't choose other religions,

they choose Islam. Although there are people around the world who are

evangelical Christians who commit acts, even Buddhists who commit

acts. People always want to find a cause. No one will say I am an

extremist, I want to commit violent acts because that's the kind of

violent man I am, which clearly Khalid Masood was. If you go back to

the GBH he was convicted of in early life, there is some suggestion that

the argument he gave to court at that time was that he had been

racially abused so his violent act was based on his racial identity so

people will always find a grievance. In your book you are very eloquent

about the pressure now and the sense of despair felt by a lot of Muslims

in this country about Islamophobia but isn't it also the case, and

although Islam is a peaceful religion for the vast majority of

people, there is a strain of modern Islamic thought which is extremely

aggressive, it sees life on this planet as an eternal fight between

the righteous and the unbelievers. I think Madeleine Albright put it

best, she said every religious text has the potential to create eternal

peace and the potential to create eternal war. If you take any text

from any religion and try to use it in a way that justifies violence we

can do that. I come from a very mixed theological background, a

strong sunny -- Sunni family... It is people who are violent and

extreme, who will use any text to try to justify their position. In

your book, The Enemy Within, you have recommendations for different

groups including Muslims in Britain, can you say what you think us to

change among Muslim communities in Britain, because a lot of them are

closed off from the rest of society and have turned their backs on

mainstream British society. One of the arguments I make is that Britain

and Islam have known each other since seventh century Britain, we

have had interactions for hundreds of years and it is important,

especially for a post 9/11 Britain, that it is important to

contextualise this relationship. I have an open conversation with my

co-religionists in this book and I say I'm having this conversation

with you is not because you are terrorists, you're not, there are 3

million of them, us, and everyone in this country would have perished if

they were, but is the community fit for purpose. So what I talk to the

British Muslim communities about is not counterterrorism, but whether

they are the best community they could possibly be for Britain 2017.

When the state is dealing with Islamic ideology they have this...

Islamist ideology. They don't like that word. It's not factually

correct. It's an academic discussion. Nonetheless, when people

are against this thing, whatever it is, they have this strategy called

Prevent, which you are very critical of. It is one of the four strands,

and there is a lobby out there which trashes Prevent and says we don't

need it, another lobby says it is perfect. Where I would stand is I

think the reality is somewhere in between. Prevent in its current form

has huge problems, it is broken, the brand is toxic, there are questions

over the training, the trainers, the level of quality of training within

schools, how it is being implemented on the front line, and therefore

what I've asked for is a pause, an independent review, look at what has

worked and what hasn't, and then put in place a Prevent-like strategy

that is trusted by the communities it is trying to engage. Thank you

for talking to us. Every week I brightly announce

that spring has arrived. And every week an icy grey downpour

is the celestial response. Can the Gods of the weather

do better this time? Over to Chris Fawkes

in the weather studio. I will do my best. Over the next few

days we have some warm sunshine to come, high pressure in charge, a

glorious sunshine to start the day. There are a few bits and pieces of

cloud around, one long working across London at the moment. Some

missed in the Western Isles, cloudy in Shetland, but apart from that it

is almost wall-to-wall sunshine across the UK. Temperature s could

reach 19 degrees in Scotland so the warmest day so far. It will be a

chilly night, in parts of rural Northern Ireland, Scotland and

England there could be pockets of frost. Maybe some patches of cloud

to start the day across eastern England but generally a decent start

of the new working week with the high pressure continuing to bring

sunny, warm weather, but there will be changes on Tuesday with outbreaks

of rain on the way particularly affecting western areas. Here is

Monday's forecast, this cloud breaking up with sunshine coming

through widely. With lighter winds across south-east England it will

warm up, although generally the warmest weather will be across

western parts of the UK. Thing is not looking too bad but changes

midweek. Andrew. The real fight starts now,

says Jeremy Corbyn, The Shadow Brexit Secretary

Keir Starmer is with me. Good morning. It's a big week for

Brexit and you have said the Labour Party will hold the Government to

account, so when? Would you mind if I just say on behalf of all MPs from

all parties that we send our condolences to the victims and their

families and of special thanks to Keith Palmer who died protecting us.

Thank you for that. Moving back to the Brexit story, this is a big week

for Brexit, the big repeal bill is coming and Article 50 is being

triggered and you have said it will hold the Government to account and I

must just ask you how. I'm setting out six tests for the final Brexit

deal. Now what comes into focus is what is the right deal because this

is about our future relationship with the EU so I'm setting out six

tests for the Government, we then start a two year process and it is

for the Government to negotiate and come back with a deal that's right

for our country. And luckily I have your six tests here, I won't go

through all of them. You say you want a strong, collaborative future

relationship with the EU, I would suggest everyone wants that. You

would say that but some of the pure Brexiteers want's to crush out even

at the Article 50 stage or before that. It's important to say that

because not everyone is in that place. You will have seen the words

of some this week about what might happen if we don't have a deal, in

your view how damaging would it be not to have a deal? Very damaging,

economically, that's what the Mayor of London and many others have said,

in pure economic terms, but there's also Britain's place in Europe and

the world. If we crush out without a deal with no meaningful

relationships. I accept we will be members but we must be partners.

Let's come onto the second bit, you say we want the exact same benefits,

your words, from the single market and the customs union, can I put to

you that that is not going to happen. We are outside both of those

things. It was made plain we cannot get all of the same benefits as if

we were inside so therefore that's a hopeless thing to ask for. We are

not inside, I accept that, I do not accept we can't have the same

benefits. Those words, exact same benefits, they are not my words.

They are in my text but they are taken from David Davis, the

Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. When he was pressed on this in

Parliament, he said he would deliver a comprehensive free trade agreement

and customs arrangements that delivered the exact same benefits as

the single market and customs union so we are hoping -- holding him to

that. The Government cannot turn around and say this is not

achievable because it was David Davis who set that. Now we come onto

the interesting bit which is that Mr Juncker this week and many others

have said it may be achievable but there's a real price to pay. It's

about ?50 billion, is that a price worth paying?

I would get into the price but it is worth establishing what the money is

for, what are the principles to be applied to it, and then the Prime

Minister should say, we are a country that will meet our

obligations and when a figure is arrived that that is one the UK

will... You accept that we will need to pay a fairly hefty bill to get

access to the single market? There will be a bill and we should say

that we are a country that honours our obligation. How much and over

what period is to be negotiated. This should be transitional

arrangements from March 2019 until we reach and conclude the

relationship that we need. That could be paid over a longer period

if we get the right relationship. You talk about the fair management

of migration which is a fairly bland thing to say. What is Labour's

immigration policy? Immigration was part of the debate and civil freedom

of movement has to go. Your leader suggested that might not be the

case. It is an EU rule. It will have to go and therefore there is a blank

use of paper. But we must have managed migration, I think the most

important things are, firstly, what will work for the economy and what

is right for our communities. Do you see EU migration falling

dramatically? I think it might but I've spoken to hundreds of

businesses who are very concerned that there should be the right rules

in place to enable them to continue with their businesses. But you rule

out freedom of movement? It is an EU rules so it will go. We will then

start with the principles that we need to apply to this. Your leader

said, we do not rule it out. That is one where he said, I will not rule

it out or commit to it. The reality is it is an EU rule and it will grow

when we depart. That gives us an opportunity to say, what does a

principled immigration policy look like? There are your principles. If

you don't get them what do you do? I hope that the Prime Minister gets

the right one for country. If you don't get what you want, what going

to happen to make the Prime Minister change her mind? This is where the

work we've done comes into play. We set the tests tomorrow, we have a

report back so we know where we are going. We also won a concession in

the house so we will have fought on the final deal. If the test is not

met then we will not support the deal. Is there any chance of there

being enough Tory rebels alongside the SNP and Liberal Democrat to

defeat the government? The balance in the house is for our strong

collaborative relationship and not extreme Brexit. I would hope that

the place we land and then we go on to transitional measures. Do you

agree with Tom Watson that there is an organised attempt by left-wingers

to tape over -- take of the Labour Party? I think Tom Watson was quite

right to call them out on what happened last week. But we do need

to find a way to come together and fight the important fights. We've

got article 50 being triggered on Wednesday. There are big issues the

Labour Party needs to be focused on. It looks as if the fight over the

union leadership as a proxy for the Labour Party. Do you have a message?

I don't have a message for Len McCluskey or anyone else other than

we should celebrate that we've got some new members but we need to come

together and we need to have clarity about what we are for. Thank you

very much for talking to us. Ever since his five-year

residency as Doctor Who, David Tennant's been universally

acclaimed on stage and screen. He's about to open in one

of the filthiest and funniest plays We caught up a stone's throw

from Soho where he'll be strutting his stuff for 11 weeks

as Moliere's Don Juan, Tennant's father

was a man of the cloth, so we discussed the moral message

of Moliere and damnation itself. First though, we talked about the TV

success that is Broadchurch. Can you make a time to come down

to the station for a full statement about your movements

on Saturday night? Is there any particular

reason I need to do that? We need all the details we can get,

it was your party after all. I will need you to give a sample

of DNA, we will be asking everyone Up and down the country,

little groups of writers are scurrying away, trying

to produce a TV hit. They look at Broadchurch

and they think, why If you could isolate

the elements that turn things into gold you would be

an alchemist, wouldn't you? An awful lot of it depends

on your relationship It's the chemistry

between the two of view. I think yes, I think Olivia

and I would both say that comes from the writing,

that's where it starts. It's the fact Chris Chibnall writes

these fantastic scripts and gives us I mean it helps that Olivia is not

bad and rather funny. Could you describe your

marriage to us, Kath? I'd describe it

as loveless, that do? You've also had to deal with huge

secrecy about the twists and turns of the plot,

kept secret even from... So, you don't know

what's going to happen? You don't, but then as a policeman

that's quite useful, it transpires. You know, you can get a little

grumpy about the fact that you don't quite know where the story is going,

but then when you're in an interview situation and you have

no idea the actor across the table from you is lying, in character

or not, it's quite helpful really. And we only know as each new script

comes what happens in it. And for that audience,

lapping it up week after week, Chris Chibnall has a big

new job coming up. He's going to be running a little

suit called Doctor Who, I don't know if you know it,

so he's going to be quite busy. Don Juan in Soho, it's based

on a Moliere play but give us Yes, it's quite brutally updated,

it's very much in the London of now He is a womaniser, he's

a chaser of pleasure. He's arguably a sociopath and it's

the story of a couple of days in his hectic,

extraordinary, intoxicating life. This is possibly one of the

filthiest plays I have ever seen. Also very, very funny, and in

the end it's a moralistic play. To what extent is this,

in the end, a sermon? It poses the life of this

extraordinary hedonist and it makes you wonder what that might be like,

to be a libertarian, And at first, I think

it's rather exciting, it's rather intoxicating and yet

inevitably the chickens come home to roost and life doesn't

really work that way. And the audience watching,

horrified fascination, this man with really no moral

scruples at all. But towards the end,

hell is beginning to gape. It is, and he sort of knows

in the back of his mind that it's coming, there is kind

of ticking clock. The supernatural literally rises

from the earth to get him. That's a very major question

for Sunday morning. I think we all have our own hells

that we are running from, don't we? Is that an ambiguous

enough answer for you? It's a heck of a role,

how does it compare with Hamlet? Because a lot of people

remember your Hamlet, may have seen it on the screen

if they haven't seen it in the theatre, and in a sense this

is almost as big a role in terms of the number of words,

the amount of time you spend on the stage leaping around,

very athletic, very relentless, It is a different part,

although there's a journey I think the greatest roles all have

that in there somewhere. It starts in a very different place,

it's bawdier, although Hamlet It's a modern sex comedy in a way

that Hamlet probably usually isn't, but there's a trajectory

of the character there which has You mentioned Doctor Who,

and Mr Capaldi is hanging up his funny hat and so forth

and stepping to one side. I remember talking to you before

you became Doctor Who and we were discussing how this

was going to completely change your I think you were taking your

girlfriend to a rock "I will never be able to do that

again in the same way." And what's your advice

to whoever is taking over? Because the show is so big

and because people love it so much and so deeply,

and because it's part it's part of our cultural furniture,

Doctor Who, and that's a huge honour to be in the middle of, but it's

quite a responsibility as well. I mean it opens a lot of doors,

I get to be in the West End and that's due in no small part

to the fact Doctor Who brought me to a new audience,

but it's an undertaking. I mean, it's desperately

exciting for whoever the next person might be,

but yes, it takes a deep breath. Do you know who the

next Doctor Who is? I don't, but I'd have

to say that even if I did! Later this morning, Andrew Neil

will have the latest on the investigation

into the Westminster terror attack. He'll be talking to the Leader

of the House of Commons, David Lidington and -

as UKIP's only MP quits the party - That's the Sunday Politics

at 11 here on BBC One. There are lots of questions

still to answer about this week's Now, it may be that it's too early

to get all the answers we want, but if anyone is privy to the real

story, it's my next guest. In your view is this a lone attacker

or is there a wider logic? What we are hearing from the places they

believe it is a lone attacker. It is an ongoing investigation, they are

investigating his journey, the people he spoke to, we cannot be

completely conclusive but as we find out more, that is what it will

confirm. We know that there was a contact before the attack and if we

knew who that was and to whom, we would no more. But the message

system is encrypted at both ends and the security services will never see

what you do. We've got this here. Messages are secured with end-to-end

encryption. It tells you, you will be completely safe, nobody will ever

see you. That is what a lot of people think terrorists are using.

If that situation completely unacceptable? That is my view, it is

somewhere that should be completely unacceptable. There should be no

place for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that they do not

provide a secret place for terrorists to communicate with each

other. It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or listen

on phones to find out what people were doing but in this situation we

must make sure our intelligence services have the ability to get

into situations like encrypted messaging. This is the same argument

going on with Apple, who said they are not going to allow the American

authorities to open a back door into their product and if they don't do

it then this encryption continues. Do you think they've got to take on

the big Internet companies and force them to open up their devices? If I

was talking to Tim Cook I would say we don't want to go into the cloud,

do all sorts of things like that, but they want -- we want them to

recognise they have a responsibility to engage with law enforcement

agencies when there is a terrorist situation. We would do it through

careful, legally tight arrangements but we cannot get away with them

saying it is not. Tim Cook said it would be wrong for the government to

build a back door into our products and yet without that you cannot find

out what you need to find out. I would ask him again to find out

other ways of getting into situations like WhatsApp on the

apple phone. That's why I am calling in a lot of organisations to ask

them to work with us to deliver the answer. It is not about them

standing back from us. Can I ask who you are calling in? It is a fairly

long list but smaller companies as well to make sure there's no hiding

place for terrorists. I want to make sure everyone takes responsibility.

There are plenty of hiding places at the moment. If WhatsApp say they

will not end encryption, alone or as messages to carry on, will you

legislate? I do agree we have to have a

situation where we can have our security services get into the

terrorist communications, that's absolutely the case so of course I

will have those conversations. Because this is a big selling point,

they advertise this as a positive virtue of their systems. They will

not want to change, you will have to make them change. I'm not saying I

want to get into your WhatsApp, and saying where there are ongoing

investigations with terrorists, people with families and children

should be on our side and I will try to win the argument. A parallel

situation, much discussion in the press this week has been the use of

big online sites to advocate all kinds of horrible and hate filled

terrorist related stuff and it took 30 seconds... I won't show it on

air, but guidelines for doing just terror operations and it shows you

how to stab someone to death if they are wearing a stab proof vest. Again

I put it to you this is an acceptable in the world we now live.

It is completely unacceptable and we have been active making sure we get

that message out. In my department would take down that sort of

imagery, we have taken down 250,000 since 2010. But this has been

voluntary and after the event. This stuff is out where and you may have

to legislate and use the law against these companies to stop it from

happening. What these companies have to realise is they are publishing

companies, they are platforms and we need to make sure that stops. You

are right, we will not resile from taking action if we need to do so

but there has been a lot of good action taken, for instance on child

sexual exploitation may have worked together. He would tell people to

take that down? Absolutely we would. If you look at companies like Amazon

and Google, they are such big, powerful companies that Amber Rudd

and the British government are not really up to taking them on, they

are too big for you. I would say think again because we want to do

this but we also want other countries to do this. I'm in

conversations with the US and the European Union have said they will

talk to us about these items. Do you like the German plan to put fines on

companies who put this up? I would rather have a situation where we get

all of these companies around the table agreeing to do it. I know it

sounds like we are stepping away from legislation but we are not. The

best people who understand the technology and the necessary

hashtags to stop this stuff being put up are going to be them, and I

would like to have an industrywide board setup where they do it

themselves. They could do this, I want to make sure they do. Another

way of looking at this attack is that it was incredibly low hiring a

car and buying a knife. Isn't the real truth that in this world and

those kind of attacks can't always be stopped. If you tripled the

budget for MI5 and MI6, they still wouldn't be able to catch everybody.

I'm afraid that is the sad truth. We have been at the threat level of

severe for two and a half years, we haven't had an Islamist attack like

this for four years but they will always try to attack us in our homes

and in the centre of democracy. And this guy was peripheral, not on the

radar in any serious way? I cannot comment any more, I --. It was a

pure coincidence there were armed police there, and for a lot of

people that is really strange that the main gate into Parliament at the

time of a severe terror alert had no armed police on it. There are

constant reviews and updates so we have the right form of defence in

Parliament. It is not something we take lightly and as a result of this

there will be another review. There are armed police in the Palace of

Westminster so the decisions that have already been made have been

carefully considered. Can you confirm it was Michael Fallon's

people who did this? I can't, no. This throws in the air the business

of emptying out Parliament and putting it somewhere else as the

refurbishment goes on, do you think as a result of the attack this needs

to be looked at again? The refurbishment comes back again and

again, the best way to do it. Security needs to be watertight

because MPs to feel under threat in their constituencies and Parliament.

This wasn't about MPs, this was individual tourists walking down the

street, it was an assault on the country. You may have heard Baroness

Warsi talking about Prevent, she said it is time to have a pause, a

judicial review and think again, but I think you intend to double down on

it instead. I think it is the wrong time to have a pause, we need to

have active communities trying to stop people becoming radicalised so

I wouldn't pause it but I do recognise what Baroness Warsi said

about needing to make more of an effort to sell it to communities. We

need to show this is a safeguarding initiative about protecting young

people. Let me ask you about the ban own laptops by some airlines. If

tourists have found ways to turn laptops into bombs, presumably there

should eventually be a full-time ban on laptops on aircraft anyway. It is

difficult to say whether we will at some stage arrive at that place but

at the moment the Government has made a decision on where to have the

ban in place based on the intelligence we have received. Can I

turn to Brexit, in simple terms how damaging would it be to this country

not to have a deal? I think as the Prime Minister said it would be

worse to have a bad deal than not to have a deal so we will enter into

the negotiations over the next few weeks and two years to make sure we

do get a deal. In my exchanges with interior ministries, in my area on

security, it has been a very big welcome in terms of wanting this to

work with them, wanting to have an engagement with the European Union

that will continue the work we do with them. One description of no

deal is more than 4 million citizens confronted with extreme uncertainty

about their future, lengthening lorry queues at Dover, serious

disruption in air traffic and possibly even nuclear fuel

shortages. It's fair to say I don't recognise that description. That is

the main negotiator, Michel Barnier. Of course he would say that. The UK

economy is doing well and the world economy is doing well... I think

there was a lot of positioning right now. Over the next two years I hope

people will calm down and we will see a good deal work for us and the

European Union. You want us to have full access to the single market and

Customs union, they are saying that comes at a price, a ?50 billion deal

was discussed this week by Mr Juncker, is that something we will

end up having to pay? I do think we should have the widest possible

access to the single market, that's what would be good to the economy.

And that would be worth paying? We don't know what the cost will be. We

have a lot to offer in this negotiation as well so we mustn't

forget it will be two ways. I'm sure we will be talking about this for

many months to come but the now thank you very much indeed.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

At ten o'clock in Oxford we will be debating whether hours of

broadcasting about terrorist offence gives them exactly what they want,

and then confession, if you bare your soul and admit your sins to a

priest, rabbi or Imam, are there any circumstances they would reveal what

you discussed to the authorities? See you at ten o'clock on BBC One.

That's nearly all we have time for this week.

I'm having a week off next week, Eddie Mair will be here

But before we go, those affected by the London attack came from right

across the globe - from Romania to America,

We leave you now with a South Korean virtuoso who's recognised as one

of the greatest violinists in the world.

Kyung Wha Chung will be performing at the Barbican in May.

After an awful week at Westminster, she's here now to play us

out with Bach's Andante from the A minor sonata.

For all the latest political news and debate,

tune in to the Sunday Politics at 11,

where we'll be analysing the week's big stories

and talking to the politicians and commentators who count.