02/04/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

They say no-one writes letters these days yet maybe we should.

This week a single letter from an English woman, delivered

in Brussels to a Pole, began a chain of events,

foresee and the precise outcome of which no-one knows.

The first skirmish, the Rock of Gibraltar.

I'll ask the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, how far will he go

That's a question of interest to the Chief Minister of Gibraltar,

Fabian Picardo, who's flown in especially

And returning to the sofa for the first time since the general

election, former Labour leader Ed Miliband, who says it's time

for the Brexit Remoaners to accept the result.

Andrew isn't here this week to present the Andrew Marr Show.

they could get to Marr, so here I am.

And it's the Green spring conference so we'll talk to both

leaders of the Green Party, Caroline Lucas and Jonathan Bartley.

Reviewing the papers, Remain campaigner, international

From the Times, Matt Chorley and former Conservative

I've also been talking to Ian Hislop about going over the top

in London's West End and why he's remaining a Remoaner!

Plus, music from an eminent statesman of rock,

Son with a happy smile. # My friend, with a happy smile.

All that and more coming up soon, but first the news

Six people have been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder

after a young asylum seeker was attacked in Croydon

The 17-year-old Kurdish-Iranian was approached when he was waiting

at a bus stop on Friday night with two friends.

He was chased, kicked and beaten unconscious and remains

Police say they are treating the attack as a hate crime.

More than 250 people are known to have died

in mudslides in Colombia, with many more injured and missing.

Heavy rains on Friday night caused rivers to burst their banks

in the southern town of Mocoa, flooding homes with mud.

A state of emergency has been called in the region.

The organisers of the university boat races say they have no plans

to postpone the event, despite the discovery of what's

thought to be an unexploded Second World War bomb in the Thames.

The device was spotted near Putney Bridge, close

A final decision on whether the race goes ahead will

The women's race is due to start at 4:35 this afternoon

Tennis finally, and Great Britain's Johanna Konta is celebrating

She won the Miami Open last night, beating former the world number one

It's being described as the most significant victory

The next news on BBC One is at 1 o'clock.

And with me to review the papers are Miriam, Esther and Matt.

The front pages, the Mail On Sunday, very excited about Google,

particularly YouTube videos. The Sunday Mirror, we have got Tom

Jones, talking about his bereavement. The Observer, worried

about Brexit, this time how the NHS will cope in terms of staffing. The

Sunday Express, Brexit as well, excited about the possible return of

the old blue passport. And in the Sunday Times, revealed, Rich Piercy

paid for doing nothing, apparently millionaire appears claiming up to

?40,000 a year according to a Sunday Times investigation, for doing not

very much at all. What have you got, Matt? We were worried about losing

Scotland and Northern Ireland, and everyone seems to have forgotten

about Gibraltar. It is a story and lots of the papers today. This is

the Sunday Times version. They report that Fabian Picardo, the

Chief Minister of Gibraltar, wanted Gibraltar to be specifically

mentioned in Theresa May's letter this week. It was not. There is a

suggestion that Spain has lobbied to get a veto on any future trade deal

that is done between the EU and the UK.

It seems like a big problem. Ministers quoted in the Sunday Times

saying that Gibraltar might be pivotal mode, when it was not

before. This is another part in the jigsaw puzzle the government is

trying to negotiate. Boris Johnson says the UK remains rocklike in

support for Gibraltar, which is a pun if nothing else. Many, you have

some Spanish reaction? Yes, I think it is interesting to see how

differently this is treated in Spanish newspapers and British

newspapers. There is a good interview in the -- in this paper

with the Spanish foreign affairs minister. He is being quite

conciliatory, saying it is better not to talk about the tours. He says

there is no intention to close the fence, which is one of the key

issues in Gibraltar. A very different mood to what we have seen

in the British media. The Spaniards care much about Gibraltar? Listen,

there is obviously a territorial dispute. I personally think that we

need to lower the temperature, both in the UK and in the EU,

whether it is Gibraltar, security, whatever. The fact is that

Spaniards, and it is always a fact that in any history, there are

always two science. What the Spaniards are most worried about is

in that territory, you have the fifth

biggest presence of banks, that happens because of the tax relation.

That is a concern to Spain. Esther, Norman Tebbit writing about this in

the Telegraph? Yes, with his usual crisp clarity. He says that

Gibraltar has much greater importance beyond the EU. He talks

about a treaty 300 years ago, a very complex series of precision is

governing the frontiers, not only in Europe, but also in America. -- a

very complex series of provisions. This was to protect Europe from

invasion by the Germans. He is saying, do not be using this as some

sort of bartering tool. It should not be on the table are tall. It is

nothing to do with it. You have to look at Nato and America's say on

that. He says that Spain is playing with fire, and should we go into

negotiations saying, let's help Catalan independence and take that

as an important issue through to the United Nations, we can both play

games. Let's not do that, it is not a colony, it is an overseas British

territory. Let's leave it that way. It should not be on the table. We

will speak about that to the Chief Minister and the Defence Secretary

in a while. You have got something about Brexit? Yes, everything is a

bargaining chip now. The flip side is the exciting new world of trade

that will open up after Brexit. The sun on Sunday have mocked up Theresa

May, Philip Hammond, it is a top gear a grand tour. It falls down

because Liam Fox is done up as Jeremy Clarkson. Parliament is on

recess this week, but the senior ministers are embarking on a trade

blitz. Theresa May is going to the Gulf. Liam Fox is tooting lots of

places. Manila, Dubai, trying to drum up interest. No Article 50 has

been triggered, we can start having tentative conversations with

countries. There has been lots of talk this week about securing the

same benefits that we got from the EU before. This is where we have

supposed to get extra benefits that we could not enjoy before. Ed

Miliband will be on the programme later. He is writing about Brexit in

the Observer. He is indeed. He is saying that we voted for Leave, and

we have to get on with it. But there is a butt. He has written it along

with Hilary Benn. Have we moved on from the fact that he understands

that we voted to leave. What have you written a piece for? In a way,

they both need credibility. Hilary Benn, after the committee report and

everyone walking out, saying that a Remainer had delivered a report and

no one had agreed on it, he needs credibility, so we need to write an

article to see that we understand that the UK has voted to leave. At

the same time, Ed Miliband, representing Doncaster very much,

very much a Leave constituency, he has to get credibility with his own

voters. I guess that was the main purpose of the article, even though

it goes to list pretty much every reason we should not be leaving.

What is important in this article is that the government's feet have got

to be held to the fire, we have to get the best deal, so what are we

looking for in the end? The UK has got to be a big international

country, it has to look beyond Europe, but we have to remain good

friends. We are still European, we will not be governed by the EU. Did

you think that Ed Miliband was talking to you among the others? To

me? He was talking to Remainers. What did you think of his message? I

personally come to this from a legal point of view. Whatever this country

decided, I was not as to say yes or no. I could not vote. My point of

view is wherever you are, you need to do things with competence. It

beggars belief that nine months from the referendum we are still having

an issue with the town. That is the very first thing that this country

and Europe needs to sort out. In the Observer you have a story about

security? Exactly, precisely. This is George Robertson, the

ex-secretary general of Nato having a go at the Article 50 letter,

saying that the threat about security, that was mentioned 11

times, together with trade, that was not an appropriate threat. He puts

it in very strong terms. He says that the letter was clumsily put

together. Beyond that, the general message of we cannot play with fire,

there are some things which are truly important, and it cannot be

that we make everything conditional, in these important areas, to trade.

It is a good message. Let's focus on the important things. What have you

got? I was quite struck by the Sunday Times' front page, about the

peers doing nothing. One of the interesting things we will see as

the Great Repeal Bill, the great copy and paste job happens, the role

of the House of Lords, there will be much more scrutiny of that. The

Labour message coming from Hilary Benn and Ed Miliband, not

frontbenchers, the Labour Party in the House of Commons is not up to

the job. If the House of Lords might muck about with it, as the

Brexiteers might see it, there will be more scrutiny on how much they

are being paid and things like that. I was trying to get away from Brexit

stories. If we look at the story, we can take it beyond Brexit. Bring

back Saturday jobs for teenagers. They say this could be what plug the

gap for these jobs. Saturday jobs and work experience is key. Having

been a former employment minister, we were having to grapple with the

fact that over the last ten years, less than 50% of young people who

would have had a strategy job, who would have had work experience, no

longer had it. Things that you would call soft skills, being on time,

being in a working environment, knowing how important it is to be

there and be able to work, we no longer have these things because

people are not doing Saturday jobs. Let's get beyond whether we are

plotting a gap. It is vital for people to have this work experience

before they start a job. The government has to introduce work

schemes, and academies to plug this gap. Another related story, in the

express, the possibility of passports that will match your suit.

This is exciting news, if you hope that Brexit would bring about the

return of the great British blue passport. The government is putting

it out to tender, the contract to produce the new passports. There are

so many perfectly good reasons why people might have voted to leave the

European Union. If this is the reason you voted to leave, I am not

sure you should be trusted on an aeroplane on your own, going

anywhere anyway. On court, having a pink European passport has been a

source of humiliation. Maybe he should get a blue cover and put it

inside. I excited about getting a British passport, would you want on?

Really interesting. Thanks very much, all of you, for your thoughts

on the papers. There is a Brexit theme, there is a European seem to

just about everything we are doing this morning. We will clock more now

about Gibraltar. -- talk more. Gibraltar is the part

of the Iberian Peninsula that's so British it makes Benidorm look

like a matador eating tapas in The long standing Spanish

desire to get its hands on Gibraltar appeared to get

a boost this week when the European Council said that

after Brexit, the UK would need to Fabian Picardo the Chief Minister

of Gibraltar has flown The Sunday Times said you repeatedly

lobbied ministers, did you lobby? We are working closely with the British

government. We are fully involved in this process, and in doing so we

have taken tactical and strategic decisions with the British

government about what should go into the Article 50 letter but there is

no point in having discussions and discussing them in public. The

Article 50 letter does make reference to Gibraltar by

cross-referencing to the White Paper, where the UK has set out more

detail of what it will do. So you had all of these conversations with

the British government, who are full today of lots of talk about the rock

and implacable support, and yet you couldn't get Gibraltar mentioned

explicitly in any of the 2200 words that Theresa May wrote in her

letter. You maybe need to be better at lobbying. You are making an

assumption that's the decision we made with the British government and

they didn't follow through, and I don't think that's fair, in the same

way I don't think it is fair to say the position in Spain is reflected

on page 19 of the newspaper. Yesterday the newspaper had a table

of EU and the UK, with Gibraltar in the middle as they carved it up for

themselves. I am not disappointed Gibraltar wasn't mentioned?

Gibraltar is mentioned by reference to the White Paper as are many other

things. Are you thrilled about that? I am not thrilled we are in the

situation we are, but we have decided to support the Prime

Minister in this process of making Brexit a success for Britain and

Gibraltar. When we get the deal in Brexit, it must be a deal that

applies of course to the UK in respect of future trade and if there

is such a deal it is only fair that it should also apply to Gibraltar.

In terms of the negotiations, you presumably want Gibraltar off the

table? You don't want Gibraltar to be part of Brexit talks, do you? It

is not on the table as a chip, and anyone who thinks we are is not

realising what this negotiation is about. Anyone who thinks you are

might have read the European Council's draft. That simply says

Gibraltar is off the table in terms of discussions of the new deal... It

is just a draft at the moment, let's see what comes back. Even if it

comes back as it is, it is clear we are entering a negotiation, and what

we are seeing, which has not been seen on the British side by the way,

are the parameters that will limit the operation of negotiation on the

part of the council. That's how they are going into the negotiation. This

is their best case, let's see what comes out of that. I'm sure the UK

will be batting for Gibraltar and I'm sure the people of Gibraltar

know that we have an important neighbour with whom we have to be in

contact. You have to get out of the draft, don't you? It is not about

getting out of the draft. Hang on, this is somebody else's document. If

this were the British document for the negotiations I would be very

upset and be sure it came out. At least the EU mentioned Gibraltar.

This is what the other side are saying, well I'm surprised this is

all they have put in, they haven't put anything in about the

sovereignty of Gibraltar, which is what Spain wants, so this has

limited the application of the principle of Gibraltar in the

context of what the EU will come to the table with simply by Spain

saying Gibraltar must form part of the exit negotiation but cannot form

part of the future deal. We know how passionate you and almost everyone

else in Gibraltar is about remaining British. But can you tell me what

would really be so wrong in what I suppose would be the worst case

scenario for you, what would be so wrong in terms of your day to day

life if sovereignty with Spain was shared? It would strip us of who we

are, it is that simple. Gibraltar would not be British if sovereignty

was shared with Spain, and for what price would you sell Cornwall to the

French? What would your life be like if Spain shared sovereignty? It

would be awful because our home would be handed over... Shared. To a

party that has no claim to title. You cannot tell me apart from the

feeling in your guts, but in your day-to-day lives you would carry on

as before. But that would not be the lives we are living today because we

are living in effect what is partly somebody else's land and that would

be massively unfair to the people of Gibraltar. The UK ghosts of the war

over the principle of consent around the world and the people of

Gibraltar have expressed their views as to what they think the

sovereignty of Gibraltar should be. Are you confident that this

Government, who did not mention you, after intensive Brexit negotiations,

perhaps on the brink of a brilliant deal about the future of the UK,

wouldn't if it had to throw Gibraltar under the bus for that

deal? I am confident that we will work closely with the British

government, make tactical and strategic decisions and when the

time comes we will make the right decisions with the Prime Minister,

making negotiations that will be in the interest of the Gibraltan

people. Thank you for flying all this way.

I understand that Fabian is flying straight back to Gibraltar

after the show this morning, luckily Tomasz Schafernaker

has a detailed weather forecast for the Rock,

It is always a bit windy around the rock, but here's hoping for a smooth

flight towards the Mediterranean, looking pretty good. In the UK, the

weather is looking pretty quiet, certainly a lot more quiet than it

was yesterday. Just a few clouds, yesterday we had downpours and hail,

but nothing like that today. It is a beautiful afternoon on the way, 17

degrees in London, fresher in the north and the outside chance of a

shower across eastern areas of the UK. Tonight a clear evening on the

way. Later in the night there might be some fog forming over eastern and

southern areas, chilly in some spots. We have got some rain on the

way for tomorrow, it will be reaching Northern Ireland, western

parts of Scotland by say midday and later in the afternoon flirting with

the Irish Sea coasts down into Wales and the tip of Cornwall, but for the

bulk of England the weather will be fine reaching 18 degrees. A quick

look at the weather for the week ahead, not much rain on the way, and

temperatures would be about where we expect them at this time of year.

The Green party spring conference will come

The party's joint leaders Caroline Lucas and Jonathan Bartley are here.

What would you do about Gibraltar? The first thing is we would say it

shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip in the Brexit negotiations and

frankly I think it just demonstrates the reckless incompetence of this

Government that it didn't see this issue coming and that's why for

example I didn't vote to trigger Article 50. We felt it should not be

triggered at the time it was. One of your MEPs represents Gibraltar, I

wonder what your policy is on sovereignty for example. It is up to

the people of Gibraltar to decide that entirely, it is not up to us to

say but it certainly raises some questions that you had 96% of them

who voted to remain inside the EU. It is hard to see how that will

work, just as it is hard to see what will happen in Northern Ireland with

a hard border there as well. You are good Europeans, you see no merit in

Spain's claim at all? No, it is up to the people of Gibraltar to make

their wishes clear, they have done so in the past and they are clearly

doing so again. Why would you? I want to ask you about one of the

policies you have been floating at your conference, a three-day

weekend. How will that work? We wanted to fly that this up because

we think we need bold new ideas for the country. We are facing the 21st

century, a very uncertain world with big pressures from global

corporatisation. When I was a kid we were told we would have this great

technological advance but we are just seeing growing inequality and

we feel people are being short-changed. We are seeing a

right-wing coup over Brexit which is taking us into an even more

deregulated situation. Yes, right-wing, Ukip have said to the

Government jump and they said how high. Did you pay attention to the

referendum result? I did, but we know that a lot of the regulations

will pass over into the repeal Bill and that's not the kind of country

UK wanted. Tommy how the three day weekend fits into the productivity

problem. -- tell me how. When people are exhausted their productivity

goes down and we are now the sixth largest economy in the world, people

are working ever more hours getting ever more stressed, ever more ill

health, mental health problems as well. We want to take a step back

and say what is the purpose of the economy, do we really want a future

where people are trying to work even more harder so that we bring work

home in the evenings and weekends, you are working now. I want to ask

you about where your work is going because there has been an ebb and

flow in Green support over the years, but now in the spectrum of

British politics if people want something up the left they have the

Labour Party, if they are frantically pro-EU they have the

Liberal Democrats, what is your repeal? We are the antidote to Ukip,

we want to wipe the smile off Nigel Farage does face. We are seeing how

Green parties across Europe are challenging the far right, and

Labour are not doing that, they have capitulated to Ukip triggering

Article 50. There needs to be a strong, robust voice on the left,

but it's also about putting forward radical, bold ideas. You have Labour

opposing cuts and we are doing that but we are going one stage further.

Who would have thought 20 years ago we would have hundreds of thousands

of people routinely using food banks? Who would have thought we

would have 5 million children facing poverty according to Save The

Children? But no one is getting angry about this and we are. It is

less than a fortnight since the Westminster Bridge attack in London,

police are investigating what the attacker may have believed, which

organisations he may have thought were doing a good job. The Green

Party website says your policy is still that it should not be a crime

to simply belong to an organisation or have sympathy with its aims. What

we are clear about is that terrorism is an atrocity, and a suggestion

that that policy that was written long time ago for talking about

issues around the ANC... It is still your policy, on your website. Policy

is agreed by our conference and stays until it is modified. Is this

a bit embarrassing? The wording isn't helpful in that it allows

people like yourself to interpret that we ... What about freedom of

thought in this country, don't you want to stand up for that? That is

the distinction that piece of policy is attempting to make, in other

words freedom of thought is entirely permissible and it would be very

scary if it were not. There's a distinction between that and the

atrocities we see at and quite rightly anyone going after that that

is without question. But you don't manage to square those two difficult

problems. When this policy was done many years ago, it was about the

context... It whatever years ago, decades ago around the time of the

ANC. When you are thinking about groups that can be demonised by a

very oppressive state, it is important you balance that freedom

of expression. We will unequivocally condemn those involved in hate crime

and hate action, that is never up for debate but it is important you

balance it, absolutely. Good to see you both, thank you.

In 1916, two British officers created a newspaper for the troops

in the town of Ypres, mispronounced Wipers by the Tommies.

Far from being a sombre journal about life in the trenches,

they produced something subversive and funny.

The Wipers Times rolled off the press until the end of the war.

Ian Hislop and Nick Newman of Private Eye have created a play

about it and Ian came in to the studio

to tell me about it and its London theatre opening.

So you do think you could be more offensive?

Oh, yes sir, I think we could be much more offensive.

# The long lost years have been well worth.

# If once again, we've peace on Earth.

They decide, we'll print a satirical newspaper right here, and it's 1916.

There are other things for officers to be doing that year.

But they go for it and they're incredibly lucky because

the sergeant in their platoon was on Fleet Street,

They produced 20 issues for the rest of the war of this brilliantly

And we have turned their story into a drama.

And the great thing about theatre as opposed to television is it

goes on and it's live, so you can hear the laughter.

And these jokes, they're about 100 years old, a lot of them.

You're not averse to a 100-year- old joke in Private Eye?

No, there's nothing like an old joke!

We have used a huge amount of their stuff, but you can hear

rows of people now laughing at Pearson and Fred Roberts'

When I first came across it, I thought, well, my initial

How were you this funny in those circumstances?

It is an incontestable fact that alcohol is

# And if you ask us back to Flanders.

I was going to ask for your favourite joke but obviously people

should buy a ticket and come along and hear.

They say, "Are you up at the front and you just cannot get away?

They say, "How do I recognise these taxis?"

And he says, "They've got a Red Cross printed on the side."

That is the level of black humour, which is fabulous.

Private Eye has been going through a very purple

patch for a long time, and you mentioned how ripe

What is the state of satire at the moment, do you think?

You have to be honest, it's partly what's going on.

The Thatcher-Reagan era was not full of brilliant satire

It was because when things are polarised, when personalities

are very strong, satire gets sort of more popular.

There are periods, I mean Private Eye in the early Blair

years, it was entirely people saying, "Can you leave Blair alone!"

"What, you want the Tories back, do you?"

There was no appetite for it and we were ruining the party

by suggesting Mr Blair might have some faults, and there were some

So it does go like that, but at the moment I think we're in...

Look at American television and those other sort of outlets,

When the Daily Mail ran its photograph of Nicola Sturgeon

and Theresa May and their legs last week, Sarah Vine appeared

on the World At One to talk about that and said,

"Well, look, it's the sort of picture you would

Yes, but we would have put a joke on it.

What did you think of the fact it was there in that form?

Maybe it didn't need a caption in your view?

Oddly enough, Private Eye had put a picture of Nicola Sturgeon

and Theresa May on the previous cover, but stupid me,

I had put a joke about the union on instead of focusing

And on the subject of the EU, are you a Remoaner?

Do you think you should go on moaning about it

Yes, loser, failing, sad, sad, hashtag "go home".

I know the arguments, but I'm afraid, no, I'm going on.

Because I keep trying to explain to people who are very,

very upset about this, democracy works by people continuing

to argue about the issues involved, and when someone wins an election,

the opposition does not say, that's it, thank you very

much, we're going home for the next five years.

You continue with the argument because it is in everyone's interest

for you to present those points of view.

And The Wipers Times, by Ian Hislop and Nick Newman,

is at the Arts Theatre in London's West End until mid-May.

Today's younger generation may know Ed Miliband as one of Twitter's

What older viewers will remember is that he was once leader

of the Labour Party, and had things turned out

differently, he would have been Prime Minister and Brexit

He writes in the Observer today that it's time to accept Brexit,

but fight the version of it he says the right wants.

Good morning. Nice to be with you. Ian Hislop, persuade him. I was the

guy that did not want the referendum. If there had been a

Labour government, if I had been Prime Minister, we would not have

had it. I fought Hatton Silver Remain, but I said, we will accept

the result. That is why I am accepting the results. I feel like

that is what we have got to do, and for a principled reason, we had the

referendum and there was a result, but I feel it for a

pragmatic reason as well. There are massive decisions to be made in the

next two years and beyond about the future shape of this country,

decisions of the gravity that we have not made for 40 years. We

cannot leave it to the right and centre right, who were on the Brexit

side of the argument to make those decisions. In a way, even more so,

because they want to use the pretext of the referendum that were not the

mandate of the referendum, cut taxes, deregulate,/ the rights of

workers. All of those horrors, as you see them, is that not a pretty

convincing argument for going back to the country wants a deal is done,

or once no deal is done, and say, do you want to remain or leave? No,

because that assumes that the outcome of Brexit are the things I

said, that we did not want to see. I think progressive politics is harder

with Brexit, that is what I say with Hilary Benn in my article this

morning, but it is not impossible. The 1945 Labour government came

to power in the most dreadful circumstances, but they did not say

it is impossible to change things. We need to limit the damage and

avoid hard Brexit, but we have got to do more than that. Take workers'

rights. I hear people saying, we cannot let the rights of workers be

reduced. That is right, but this was not just a referendum about our

relationship with Europe, it was about the state of Britain. Let's

use the legislation to make the country more progressive. It is

never impossible to do that. What do you think of Labour's policy? I

think the tests we have set right. Could we have done with that three

months ago? Second-guessing leaders are spokespeople, I had too much of

that in my time. Second-guessing would be trying to predict the

future. What do you think of what they did? Keir Starmer and Jeremy

Corbyn have been handling a difficult situation as best they

can, frankly. It is easier for other parties. If you are the Greens or

the Liberal Democrats, you're fishing in 48% pool. If your Ukip,

you are fishing in the 52% pool. Labour is doing something much

harder, trying to speak for the whole country. Ignoring the verdict,

going into this thing, let's overturn it, that looks like we are

ignoring the 52%. There is more that unites Remainers and levers than

what might appear, because they share common concerns about the way

the country is run. You mentioned at the start of the interview that had

things gone differently, you would have been Prime Minister and there

would have been no Brexit. In the hours and days after defeat, how

much did you think about that? About the prospect of the referendum, you

mean? About what you were unsuccessful in achieving and the

ramifications of that. You, I presume, took some personal

responsibility? I take total responsibility. How did you deal

with that as a person? It is tough. How did you deal with that? Did you

cry? I do not recall. It was very upsetting. Very upsetting days. Were

you depressed? I would not describe it that way. It is hard, very hard.

Hard as I watch what is happening to the country, and... How did you deal

with it? Did you seek solace in friends, did you talk? My family,

obviously my family, my kids know who I am now. Now? I am kidding.

There is something about the Leader of the Opposition, it is hard to

have a normal life. One of the biggest pieces of solace for me is

the British people, actually. The people you meet on the street.

Sometimes I ended up comforting them. When people say to you, when

that exit poll came out, you say, that was terrible. You say, I was

there as well. People saying, look, I supported you and I liked some of

the things you were saying. Or I did not support you but I think some of

what you might have been seeing was right. The other thing is, one

should not be too introspective about this. I am not generally an

introspective person. I just thought I would ask you because you were

here. I knew straightaway I did not want to leave British politics. I

meant what I said when I resigned. There are other ways of being

leader, of taking forward the argument about the country. On the

various accounts of polling day that have been written by various people,

they all seem to agree that while you were not cocky, you had a

realistic expectation on the day that people were voting that you

would be Prime Minister? I was hopeful that we would win. That exit

poll must have been especially crushing? It was a terrible shock.

It was a terrible shock to lots of people. I believe the opinion polls.

I will not believe again. Do you believe the 25% for Labour opinion

polls? Let's see what happens. That is where you are? It is a tough

situation do you believe it? Do you think that is where labour -- that

is where labour is? I do not know. It is a toss situation. It is hard

because of Brexit. We are trying to speak to the whole country. I

genuinely mean is, when I was leader, I did not appreciate people

commenting on me. I did not think it did much good. I have been very

spilling about commenting on Jeremy Corbyn. Let's talk about the things

you did as leader, changing the leadership rules. People think that

Jeremy Corbyn has made Labour or a party of the left, but others say

that it is the rule change that you were instrumental in bringing in

that has put Labour where it is? It is a mistake to think about it like

that. Jeremy Corbyn was the winner in every section of the membership.

He had to pass the threshold. The idea of the membership collecting

the party, the membership selecting the party, it was widely endorsed

across the Labour Party. I think it misses something, why has Jeremy

Corbyn on two leadership elections? Because of a sense among party

members, but not just among party members, that they felt there needed

to be a more radical programme, even more radical than I was offering. In

a way, I have the humility to accept that. I do not think it was sort of

an accident. I think it went deeper than that. From all wings of the

party, you have to learn the lessons from that. You said before that

Jeremy Corbyn's position was untenable, and yet here he is. I

supported Owen Smith against him in the second leadership election and

Jeremy on. You have to accept the result, like what I said about

Brexit. I accept the results. This is a collective effort across the

party, particularly for ex-leaders. Talking of humility, do you think it

is possible that Jeremy Corbyn supporters are right and that Labour

has not really tried a proper left-wing agenda for many years, it

has not won an election on your sort of platform since 2005? Instead of

people criticising Jeremy Corbyn, should they get fully behind him? By

and large, I think that is what people are done since he won his

second mandate. People recognise it is important for him to be able to

lead. I do think that in his leadership campaign he spoke to a

yearning that people had, not for utopia, but for radicalism. I do not

quite agree with your characterisation of my programme

because I think I offered some of that radicalism, some of which we

are seeing being adopted not just by the Labour Party but the

Conservative Party. There are always lessons to learn, and definitely

from his election. Ed Miliband, good to see you.

Coming up later this morning, Andrew Neil will be getting

the thoughts of former Conservative leader Lord Howard on the

Also, ahead of the local elections in May, he'll speak

to Labour's Jon Ashworth and Alistair Carmichael

from the Liberal Democrats about how they think their parties will fare.

That's the Sunday Politics at 11, here on BBC One.

We've heard already this morning from the Chief Minister of Gibraltar

talking about the EU's desire to link Brexit with Spanish

Let's ask the Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, about that.

Good morning. Good morning. We have established the Chief Minister was

lobbying hard on this. He did not get Gibraltar mention some Aaron

Ramsey May's letter. Why not? The letter was about the formal

notification we are living in the process of negotiation, how we want

the talks to be handled but the letter referred to the Brexit White

Paper and Gibraltar is firmly in that white paper. You will find

eight separate references to Gibraltar in the White Paper and the

different issues we have got to deal with are set out in that white

Paper, whether it is the position of the City of London or fisheries

policy, Gibraltar and everything else. But it is odd, in this 2200

words Theresa May managed to the consternation of some people link

trade and security, but wasn't able to mention Gibraltar by name. First

of all it is important to link trade and security because what we are

looking for is a deep and special partnership that covers both

economic and security cooperation. You are proud of that link?

Absolutely, it is important we go on committed to the security, this is

the weekend we send 800 troops to Estonia as part of our Nato

commitment, we are sending RAF typhoons to Romania, stepping up our

commitment to the security of the continents because it remains our

continent and this is a very uncertain time for Europe. It is

right we should be playing our part in that so these two things go

together. I'm happy for people to conclude that if there is no deal,

the EU and Europe would be less secure? We would all be worse off if

there was no deal, we are expecting to have a deal but we obviously

cooperate with Europe on security, not just through Nato, our police

forces do, our security agencies do, or judicial systems, some of that is

inside the European treaties and the bits that are inside we need to make

sure that cooperation continues because Europe faces threats not

only from Russian aggression but terrorism as well. Before the

referendum, use of the vote to leave would payday for Putin, no according

to the Sunday Telegraph Cabinet ministers have secretly agreed to

exploit EU fears over Putin, how much is that true? The letter refers

to our ambition to have a completely new partnership with Europe on the

economic side but also on the security side. But the Telegraph

quotes you directly, the EU needs or capabilities and the UK have high

cards to play on security. Are you save rattling about Putin? This

isn't a bargaining process, we have the biggest defence budget in

Europe... You are talking about cards. I'm not going to talk about

what happened in what meeting but it is a fact we have the biggest

defence budget in Europe, we are leading player inside Nato, that's

why we are deploying troops this week to help protect the eastern

flank of Nato, and the other European countries of course will

want us to continue to do that. I want to talk about the size of the

defence budget in the second but before we leave Gibraltar, are you

going to take it off the table? Is interesting, we are very clear that

there cannot be a change in the status and sovereignty of Gibraltar

unless the people of Gibraltar agree to it and they clearly don't. So

that is not going to happen, Gibraltar will be involved in these

negotiations, again the Chief Minister made that clear, he will be

involved throughout, and there will in the end of course be an agreement

that fully respects the position of Gibraltar. The Conservative

manifesto on Gibraltar mentions it in the same sentence as the

Falklands Islands, how far is the UK prepared to go to look after

Gibraltar's interests? We are going to look after Gibraltar, it will be

protected all the way because the sovereignty of Gibraltar cannot be

changed without the agreement of the people of Gibraltar and they have

made it clear they don't want to live under Spanish rule. It is clear

that Spain is not saying the whole thing is subject to the transfer of

sovereignty. It looks like the EU is open in principle to some kind of

transitional deal in the talks coming up, would it be acceptable to

you to go into the next general election with free movement of

people still happening and the UK still being subject to the European

Court of Justice? No, we have made it clear where are leaving the

European Union, the single market, the customs union, and we will no

longer be under the ambit of the European Court of Justice but it's

also clear we have to avoid a cliff edge. We need to give business and

the various sectors of our economy the certainty they need that there

won't suddenly be a huge difference between the day after we leave and

the day before. The Prime Minister set it out in her Lancaster house

speech that we will do everything we can to avoid the cliff edge, but

there will be inevitably be for some sectors implementation periods. So

we could have the free movement of some people while you go into the

next general election and fight that? You are speculating about the

course of the negotiations. Rule it out. We are not expecting to take

advantage of the four great freedoms, including the freedom of

movement of people. You cannot give me any timetable. We cannot give a

timetable on negotiations that haven't started yet but our object

is to regain control over migration, to make sure we can manage the

numbers of people coming here and the numbers of people going to

Europe. The MoD is facing a ?10 billion funding shortfall over the

next decade according to analysis by the Times, what is your estimate of

the funding shortfall? There isn't a funding shortfall. We are committed

to efficiency savings, like any other government department but the

big difference is we keep the efficiency savings, since over a

billion a year we are finding each year, all of that we keep and we put

back into investing in the new equipment that our Armed Forces

need. Would it be efficient to cut the number of Royal Marines? They

are part of the Royal Navy, which is growing in size. It is not only

getting this year the aircraft carriers and the new submarines...

Let's stick with the question because it has been floated, the

idea we might lose some Royal Marines, and Lord Ashdown says, a

reduction in numbers is bound to have an effect on the quality and

number of people. The Royal Marines are part of the Royal Navy, we are

increasing the strength of the Royal Navy by around 400. The balance

inside the Royal Naval strength between the number of sailors and

the number of marines, that is a military judgment, a matter for the

first Sea Lord and the military chiefs to advise me on and that's a

balance they keep under review. It is odd because you have people like

Lord Richards saying that the Government is often hiding behind a

veil on this, the growing mismatch between ambition and capability must

be addressed. I don't agree with that, we are expanding our defence

budget. Last week it was 35 billion, this week it goes up to 36 billion,

the new financial year, it goes up by a billion every new parliament.

We meet the Nato commitment but we do need to pay for new frigates and

new aircraft and new armoured vehicles and part of that is coming

from the efficiency savings. If there are air feels we no longer

use, if there are barracks which are redundant it makes sense to dispose

of them and put savings back into the front line. David Cameron sort

of returned to the fray this week, was good to see him back? It's

always good to hear from previous prime ministers, we should do. Some

people think he should be Nato Secretary General, I read reports

you had been lobbying for that. Do you think he would make a good one?

And sure he would, I haven't seen what his future career plans are but

we have a Secretary General at the moment who is not due to hand over

for some years yet. What do you think we are missing when he's not

on the political stage? He led this country through a very difficult

financial crisis into a coalition we haven't seen since the Second World

War and lead us successfully through that. He had six years in Downing

Street... But what are we missing now he's not there? He is still a

relatively young man, I have regular discussions with him, he still takes

a strong interest. If Prince Charles phoned you and ask you to stop a

war, would you? We always listen to the Royal family, I have regular

meetings with his Royal Highness. He asks to see me every so often and

takes a strong interest in our Armed Forces. Is that a delight when the

call comes in? Absolutely, he has served himself in the Navy and holes

rank in the RAF. He is a great champion of our Armed Forces. And

the report he wanted to stop the War in Afghanistan for a while, did that

ring true to you? That something you would have to ask the Labour

government about, that is some years ago now thank you.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

In Brighton at ten o'clock we will be debating Brexit, does Mrs May

have a mandate for it? And has the time come to decriminalise sex work?

See you at ten o'clock on BBC One. Andrew will be back next

week when his guests For now, we leave you with

a musician who's been at the front line of American music for decades,

from punk to rock to alt-country. Alejandro Escovedo has collaborated

with Ryan Adams, REM, Steve Earle, and this man, the Boss

himself, Bruce Springsteen. Alejandro

Escovedo is touring the UK His new album, Burn Something

Beautiful, is according to Rolling Stone, "a shadowy mixture

of punk, roots and rock". # A fortune I would pay

if I though it would heal # A fortune I would pay

if I thought it would heal # A pair of broken hearts

on the top of the hill # Well like a hurricane

or a runaway train # Take our chances

on the numbers we play # I miss my friends

with the heartbeat smile # On the east side of the bay

we watch the parade # I miss my friends

with the heartbeat smile # We laugh and we run

we staggered and fell # Greeted the sun

with another tall tale # San Francisco,

New York, Valparaiso # I wish I'd been

there to carry you home # I miss my friends

with the heartbeat smile # On the east side of the bay

we watch the parade # I miss my friends

Marine Le Pen has her eyes on the French presidency.

As she tries to distance herself from her party's controversial past,

we follow the money and ask, "Who's funding her campaign?"