09/04/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

The first foreign policy crisis of the Trump era is with us.

The attack on Syria after the use of chemical weapons has deeply

Justified and proportionate response to a war crime,

or a spasm of anger - simply kicking the anthill?

Meanwhile, our Foreign Secretary has abruptly cancelled

Speaking for the Government, the International Development

Secretary Priti Patel joins me live from Liverpool.

The Syria strikes have opened up yet another division in Labour's ranks.

The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry is here.

And joining me from Aberdeenshire to talk independence,

Brexit and Scotland's future, the SNP's Alex Salmond.

I've also been talking to an acting national treasure, Jim Broadbent,

about his new movie and why it was good to be in awe

Perfect casting, she is such a star. I was slightly nervous of Charlotte!

Plus, we'll have some rousing regimental music.

Here on the sofa to review today's news, Sir Peter Westmacott,

a former British ambassador to the US.

The journalist and broadcaster Julia Hartley-Brewer.

Church services are being held in Sweden today to remember the four

people who died and those who were injured in the lorry

Police are questioning a number of people in relation

From Stockholm, Maddy Savage reports.

Thousands of people spent Saturday paying their respects and,

after police reopened the shopping street where the attack happened,

many were quick to find new ways to make their mark.

In the old town's mediaeval cathedral, there was a special

service to remember the victims, attended by Sweden's Prime

Earlier, police revealed that when they towed away the delivery

truck used in the violence they had made a disturbing discovery.

We have found something in the truck, in the driver's seat.

A technical device which should not be there.

I cannot, at this stage, say that this is a bomb.

The man they think was behind the wheel has connections here,

a diverse working-class suburb in the north of the city.

He hasn't been named, but he's 39 and originally from Uzbekistan.

Several others have been arrested too, following raids

Security remains tight, but locals are expected to gather

They've been told to leave politics at home and come together

The UK Government is leading growing criticism of Russia

over its continued support for the Syrian president,

Sir Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary,

has claimed the Kremlin is responsible for the 80 civilian

deaths in a chemical weapons attack in Syria on Tuesday.

Last night, Russian television showed jets taking off from an air

base hit with US cruise missiles after the attack.

The US military has ordered a Navy strike group to move

towards the Korean peninsula, amid growing concerns

about North Korea's missile and nuclear weapons programme.

US Pacific Command described the deployment as a "prudent measure

to maintain readiness in the region".

President Trump has said the United States is prepared to act

alone to deal with the nuclear threat from North Korea.

The body of the police officer Keith Palmer,

who was stabbed to death last month, will be taken to the Palace

of Westminster before his funeral in south London tomorrow.

The Queen has given her consent for his coffin to lie in rest

at the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft, ahead of his funeral

And finally, cabin crew on a Turkish Airlines flight

celebrated the arrival of an extra passenger at 42,000

feet, when a woman gave birth to a baby girl.

Cabin crew and passengers helped to deliver the child

after the mother went into labour shortly after take-off on the flight

Both mother and baby are said to be doing well.

Sunday Times, Russia accused in complicity in Syria war crime. Also

note the verb in the under sentence, Boris Johnson Paul Dadge to call off

Moscow mission. Different views of Boris Johnson in the papers. Ken

McCluskey of Unite accusing Labour MPs of a dirty tricks campaign

against him in the union vote there, we will talk about that as well.

Different views of Boris Johnson, the Sunday Telegraph, sounding very

statesman-like, but on the front of the Mail on Sunday, Boris the poodle

pulls out of Russia summit. Why, at the last minute, has he not gone to

Moscow as he was going to do? And further stories that I don't

understand, something about Mel B's husband! I'm not going to talk about

that! Sir Peter Westmacott, this weekend

will weekend, let's pick up on that Boris Storey, a big spread inside,

Moscow attacking him, mocking him for not coming and all that. Yes,

lots of stuff about that story, the Russians saying he is indulging in

theatrics for lack of any argument, not good in terms of the optics

coming out of Moscow. But there is a broader issue here, what is the role

of the British Government in this business? There was Number Ten on

Wednesday morning saying nobody is talking about military action and by

Thursday evening, the next day, the president is talking to people and

there were senior Americans conferring with coalition partners

about what would happen, but they didn't ask us to get involved like

four years ago and here is the question of what is Boris' role,

should he go or not go? What he told to not go or was it felt it was more

intelligent to leave it to Rex Tillerson, who is going to Moscow

this week as well? One of Boris Johnson's people is quoted as saying

he knows the politics behind this look terrible this morning but that

doesn't matter in terms of getting a smooth message from the west to

Moscow? Yes, there may be the best of making -- yes, there may be

making the best of a bad job in that line. It is Michael Fallon who has

been making the Government's case on this, much of which is about foreign

policy. Do we think the Foreign Secretary is being gagged at the

moment? It does look like it, Boris Johnson, just lots of footage of him

walking up and down as speculation of whether he has been told to step

out. There are voices from the Government in the newspapers,

Michael Gove has a piece in The Sun... Not in the Government the

last time I looked! He is on his way back, if he gets his way! But what

we do not have is what Boris thinks. We are going to go to the iPad. An

interesting article in the New York Times, which is, what is this legal

or not? A long debate on whether it is legal to strike Syria under

international law and under US law, a debate about whether it was

constitutional or not. Because the American excuse, if they need an

excuse for something like this, if it is related to terrorism which

made it eight self defence attack, which is quite intricate as an

explanation. And Charlie goes through the arguments that this is

not consistent with self defence, on the other hand plenty of precedent

for American presidents taking military action where they have not

been able to argue self defence and plenty of President also with not

consulting Congress, which is the other big legal and procedural issue

which Trump had to address before this decision. All of this is a

nonsense, Western democracies deciding whether it is legal. I'm

sorry, I do not decide whether something is right thing to do on

what two totalitarian dictatorships think. There is also this position

where it is apparently OK to destroy people's lives with barrel bombs but

if you use gas it crosses a line? The legal difference is clear but

the moral difference, if it was my child that had been killed, if I was

a Syrian mother I would not be ready to make that distinction about thing

is, carry on killing Syrian children every day, targeting them, and

suddenly we are outraged. The other question is whether Assad carried

this out... That is a good question, do we know this? In the times they

go through the incapacity of Russia to lie, once upon a time the

Russians were fantastic liars and they go through in great detail

about how their lives are easy to decipher, so it is a persuasive

piece that we do know. And looking ahead the real question is whether

this is a dry run for North Korea, and much more dangerous situation in

global terms. Trump made it clear in an number of tweets that North Korea

was his priority, not Syria committee said that long before he

was president, he has made North Korea a big issue and this is the

worry for the world, forget barrel bombs or chemical weapons, two huge

ego maniacs trying to deal with each other, Kim Jong-il and Donald Trump,

I would not want to be caught in the battle. Is it going to be something

decided strategically long-term, military precision, or is it just

going to be done on a whim by two egomaniacs? I genuinely think we are

in a dangerous position. There is a North Korea element of this but I'm

not sure it was in Donald Trump's mind when he changed his mind so to

me. This was about not being Obama, about being a decisive president, a

bit unpredictable, about showing, I am in charge now and I can smack the

bad guys. There is a separate message to North Korea which is, as

Obama said to him during the tradition -- transition, the biggest

security threat to America, but I'm not sure that was in his mind. He

saw the pictures and decided, I have got to do something. And we are

seeing a big reshaping in Donald Trump's team as well. That is right,

the Mail speculate on whether Ivanka was important but the Telegraph goes

hardest on the fighting in the White House and suggests some top advisers

could be sacked over this. Steve Bannon was taken off the National

Security Council last week, he thinks none of this fits with

America first, his slogan, and Jared Kushner, the President's son-in-law,

is apparently becoming much more of a potent force. And this attack has

infuriated a lot of the hard-core Trump supporters who thought they

would not get involved in these wars again and are angry this morning.

Let's move on, you have a story from the Express, Julia? Yes, it has also

upset Nigel Farage as well, this story is about him offering to woo

Marine le Pen for Britain. She has had no contact, no one in the

Government has had contact with Marine le Pen, we should not be

making predictions, it is a long way to that election, maybe 23rd I think

is the final date, but he says he wants to form the role of the

go-between, this was suggested after Donald Trump's election as well. Our

own diplomats are desperately trying to put together the Brexit

negotiating plans, being photographed in trains and

elsewhere, documents being revealed, and the Mail On Sunday has a big

splash about that. Yes, UK trade secrets spotted on the 7.22, and the

story of somebody carrying a paper on the train. You have to remember

everybody has got an iPhone these days. And if you have your papers in

a folder, you should have that folder closed! It is striking how

the Mail On Sunday is very different to the Daily Mail, the way in which

the battle between the editors is there on Brexit, the Daily Mail

adamant pro-Brexit, everything European is dreadful, Mail On Sunday

making trouble for those people trying to drive Brexit forward. Here

we have evidence that it is difficult in the heart of Government

to get the job done but also, as you say, foreign office has had great

chunks of people taken out to make a success of it and there is an issue

within the Government, how can we make this work? The allegation is

things like environmental protection and saving endangered species will

be put to one side while we do trade negotiations. Quite rightly. And

they call that for Tim Farron, leader of the Lib Dems, quoted in

that story, there is the beginning of a sign of Lib Dem revival at the

moment. There is, there have been quite a few by-elections this week,

the Lib Dems surging back. There is a space for opposition and the

Liberal Democrats are, to a small extent, starting to fill that. I

want to draw attention, it is hard to get attention for anything other

than the things we are talking about now, perfectly understandable in

domestic terms, leaving the European Union dominate the agenda, but the

Observer have done a good in focus where they say there are lots of

things going on under the radar which we forget about, social care,

schools and housing, and they have gone through in detail what is going

on and the question is whether Whitehall has the capacity to deal

with these things. To be fair they did not until 'Grexit' either. You

have a school story? There is a book by the former Harrow headmaster, how

parents and schools can drive standards for children and he is

talking about a wonderful school, King Solomon Academy in London,

where a huge number of kids have free school meals yet they achieve,

60% getting five GCSEs, 90%, and one of the things they do is deal with

the parents, if there is an issue with the work they confiscate Xbox

it and mobile phones from home, with the parents' agreement, parents and

teachers working together. We have used to look at each other

rather than doing this the whole time. But it echoes the idea that

when parents and teachers were together, it delivers. We can't

finish without doing a Labour Party story, I mentioned the Len McCluskey

story at the beginning about him being angry and worried about Labour

people plotting against him but I have to say in a shameful way, this

is slightly overshadowed by two weird stories, of all the kind of

organisations to be picketed by the Labour left, the new statesman has

got into trouble... It is remarkable, the Labour left are

annoyed at the anti-Corbin coverage in the new statesman, traditionally

a left of centre magazine. The editor of the Spectator has

amusingly been complaining that no one is picketing him. He's invited

them to go and join in. It is a funny old world politically. If the

Labour Party does not want new statesman readers to vote for it, it

is going to struggle. Meanwhile, smirks all round, Ed Miliband, this

is the Channel 4 programme, The Last Leg, who persuaded the former Labour

Party leader to make a whatever of himself. Before we do any more,

let's have a listen. # Take me on

Take on me. Now, Mrs Maher said, "Who did they

get to play Ed Miliband?" But it's really and somehow it does not quite

do the job that Strictly did for Ed Balls. Ed Balls had left Parliament

and it was part of this post politics Korea and Ed Miliband is

still in Parliament and this week of all weeks, with Syria and in the

interview on the programme, he was talking about the Parliamentary vote

to block action, so there's quite uneasy bedfellows, to talk about

that and then be dressed as A Ha. My guess is it was done after the

chemical attack, and if that's the reason, my apologies, but that is

the reason he did not become Prime Minister. Even though it was funny.

He's not holding a banana. In a parallel universe, if you had been

advertising Ed Miliband, the Prime Minister and he said, "I've got this

great idea", what would you have said? Diplomatically! First, check

if you can sing, how credible is it? No, I think while you are still in

Parliament, I think this is a dangerous thing to do, it does not

add to your gravitas at a time when you are trying to win an election.

Even though on a grim warning, it has made us laugh. Now the weather.

It's glorious. It's fantastic.

At least it is down here in the soft, pampered south.

We're told that today will be the hottest day of the year so far.

But it's also April, so you know in your heart

Here's Ben Rich in the weather studio.

Got it in one, it is April and it won't last, but for some of us, it

will be a day of unbroken sunshine and some real warmth. Lovely start

from the Weather Watchers in Cumbria but I suspect things will cloud over

in Cumbria as the day goes on. The cloud already arriving across

northern parts of Scotland and this is the change. A weather front

clouding things over across western Scotland, Northern Ireland, perhaps

western fringes of Wales and the south-west as we go on through the

day and this weather front will bring some outbreaks of rain as

well. If you are out and about at 4pm, through Northern Ireland, West

and northern Scotland, pretty disappointing afternoon, fairly cool

with outbreaks of rain. Aberdeen and Edinburgh should stay dry with

cloud, clouding over across north-west England, too. As the

cloud rolls in across the coast of Wales and the south-west, the

temperature will take a tumble. 11 degrees. But come inland,

particularly in central and eastern areas, temperatures as high as 25 or

26 degrees. This evening and tonight, this is the weather front

with most rain fizzling away but behind it, as it sinks southwards,

we all get into some cool air and what that means for tomorrow is not

a bad day, with some sunshine and a few showers but forget about 25. 15

is the best I can do. But then again, it is only April.

One party that's united in its opposition to

the American attack in Syria is the Scottish National Party.

They've also been boosted this week by a formal announcement from Spain

that that country wouldn't block an independent Scotland

If only the Scottish economy was in a slightly stronger position,

Alex Salmond, the party's former leader, would be

Welcome from Aberdeen. It looks beautiful behind you. Can I start by

asking about this week and's news, however? If the regime is

responsible for a chemical attack on its own people, innocent people in

Syria, surely some kind of military response is proportionate by the

West? What should happen, if the Syrian regime or whoever is

responsible for using chemical weapons against a civilian

population, or barrel bombs, or bombing hospitals, there should be a

proper UN investigation, and those responsible should be arraigned

before the International criminal Court. That is the way you impose

the international rule of law. That is what should happen. There's a

number of obstacles to that happening, not least of which is the

USA, unlike 130 other countries, does not yet recognise the

International Criminal Court but that should not stop the initiative

being made to have a proper examination, and establish who is

responsible for an atrocity, and holding them properly to account in

terms of international law. Military action without that basis of law,

without that framework, is no substitute for doing what is right

and proper to impose the rule of law and to stop the things happening

again. What do you make of the abrupt announcement that the Foreign

Secretary is no longer going to Moscow to talk directly with the

Russians after this? He's going to let the Americans go there first

instead. Well, Boris Johnson just looks daft. I mean, what is the

argument for not going ahead with the visit? Rex Tillerson is going on

Wednesday so it can't be that we have moved to a Cold War position of

no talking whatsoever. The idea that the Foreign Secretary can't be

trusted because he might pursue his own line or have an independent

thought or cross over what the Americans are going to say, just

makes him look like some kind of mini-me to the USA and that is not a

position in the Foreign Secretary wants to be in. If the mail on

Sunday repeat the Russian line that the British Foreign Secretary is a

puppet, then you know you are really in trouble and I would have thought

Boris Johnson looks in the political trouble this morning. Let me turn to

the independence question. Theresa May has said very clearly this is

not the time for a second independence referendum. Nicola

Sturgeon has said she is prepared to be flexible about the date. Does

flexibility, so far as the SNP is concerned, mean that you can accept

a second referendum after Brexit is completed, as David Mundell says?

No, the right time for the second referendum is when the Brexit deal,

the British Brexit deal is known. Therefore, that can be compared

against the prospect of an independent Scotland in Europe. At

the top of your interview, you rightly talked about the Spanish

Bryn Secretary, making it absolutely clear there was no Spanish veto

against Scottish membership of the European Union. You could also have

added Angela Merkel's key ally in the European Parliament, who said

that would be a speedy process, this week, or the queue of European MPs

in the debate this week from across the continent who made clear their

friendship towards Scotland. Then you can see, Andrew Cotter how the

tectonic plates are shifting in Europe and Scotland, compared with

three years ago. I was going to ask you, this is quite a change in tone

from the Spanish government in particular. How important is that in

the case for Scottish independence? Is this a really crucial moment for

you? Well, it is a significant moment. You will remember, three

years ago, I was being interviewed by you, -- dry Manuele Boaro so was

being interviewed by you, comparing scholar to Kosovo and I don't think

Jean-Claude Juncker is going to be doing at any time soon. I think

there's been a sea change in attitudes towards Scotland. The

British press always exaggerate the opposition to Scotland. That was

part of the campaign. But there can be no mistaking now that the

friendship towards Scotland, and the key thing of course, as Scotland has

gained influence, then the UK Government has lost influence. If

you are a member of the club, then you have always got cards to play,

and telling other people you don't want to destabilise things, if you

are withdrawing, as the UK is, from the European Union, you have very

little credit and very little credibility across the entire

continent of Europe. So the timing of so-called IndyRef2 is reported.

What about holding an advisory referendum if Theresa May won't give

you one before the end of the process, which could be several

years away? I leave these matters to the person responsible, the First

Minister Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. Can I just say that the Theresa May

line, this is not the time, or now is not the time, is not going to

stand. Back in the day, I remember David Cameron telling me there

wasn't going to be a Scottish referendum but that did not last

against the democratic wishes of the Scottish people and the Scottish

parliament. And neither will be Theresa May line. Why do you say

that? Over the next few months, the line will crumble. What because no

British Prime Minister can stand against the democratic wishes... No

British Prime Minister... Even Margaret Thatcher, for goodness

sake, was prepared to acknowledge the right of the Scottish people to

exercise self-determination. Self-determination delayed, like

justice, is self-determination denied and it won't stand

politically. My prediction is that the Theresa May position will

crumble over time. But in this context, according to the polls, at

least half of Scots don't want a second independence referendum for

the time being and therefore, Theresa May can play alongside Ruth

Davidson, this is not the time and as it were, get away with it for

quite a long time to come. Well, the only poll which has asked -- after

the Scottish parliament supported it, was a YouGov Paul Wood said the

UK Government should accede, and that majority will grow, Andrew,

because of the Democratic imperative behind it. Take my word for it,

there will be a referendum in Scotland. The timing, of course,

will have to be negotiated but the timescale that it should be is when

people of Scotland can make a judgment between the Brexit Britain

future, and the future of an independent Scotland within the

European context. Let me ask you about the Scottish economy because

we have slightly disheartening news last week, in the last quarter, the

Scottish economy actually shrank by 0.2%, and the UK economy grew over

all. Why do you think the Scottish economy and the British economy

generally are so out of guilt at the moment? -- out of kilter. We have

lost 100,000 jobs in the onshore oil industry in Scotland over the last

couple of years, not the least of which in my constituency here in the

north-east of Scotland. If that was equivalent to the UK, you would be

talking about a million jobs lost in your biggest industry. Obviously,

that has a severe economic effect. I was fortunate as First Minister, per

capita, GDP in Scotland exceeded the UK right through the years from

2007, and incidentally, in the run-up to the first independence

referendum but if you have a big blow in your major industry, that

has a significant economic effect. Incidentally, I would not get too

complacent about the UK economy, if you look at the production figures

this week and the balance of trade figures. I think the post Brexit

boom is running out of steam. Can I turn to one other area which is,

again going back to the timing of a potential referendum because you

could hold your own referendum in Scotland, and I'm slightly surprised

that you are so reluctant to talk about it because that is in the

hands of the Scottish Parliament and the SNP. Well, it is in the hands,

the tactics of these matters are in the hands of the First Minister, who

is charged with taking forward and that is a matter for Nicola Sturgeon

but she has said she will outline to Parliament after Easter recess

what's the strategy is going to be to make sure that the will of the

Scottish people and the parliament, the democratic will, the right of

Scotland to self-determination, Andrew, is respected. Theresa May

was challenged about that by Angus Robertson in the House of Commons,

and her answer was that her own constituency of Maidenhead had also

voted to remain in Europe, as if somehow, the ancient nation of

Scotland is, the ball with an English constituency. That is

exactly why, incidentally, her attitude will not stand. No

self-respecting Scot is going to stand for an attitude which a

British Prime Minister evokes comparison between the Scottish

nation and the constituency of England, however beautiful

Maidenhead undoubtedly is. We could be talking about this for a lot

longer, but we have ran out of time. We will talk again, I'm sure, soon,

but for now, thank you Brett much. You haven't mentioned Scotland

winning the Grand National! I'm so sorry! I wanted to congratulate

Lucinda Russell and 13. Anything is possible if Scotland can win the

Grand National! Before you explode with enthusiasm, thank you, Alex

Salmond. The Sense Of An Ending by Julian

Barnes was a slim but powerful It's now been made into

a very British movie A gold-standard cast includes

the likes of Charlotte Rampling and Michelle Dockery,

with the great Jim Broadbent as the story's protagonist,

Tony Webster, a grumpy divorcee still coming to terms with a tragic

incident from his youth. When we met, Jim told me

what drew him to this role. What really drew me

to it was the whole premise, the gaucheness and the clumsiness

of the young man, the sixth former, He doesn't really know how to handle

the opposite sex and how to handle relationships

and makes awful mistakes. And then in the story, it transpires

that although we grow older, The face is wiser,

but nothing else is? Yeah, I mean, behaviour

becomes more sophisticated. You get better at acting, you know,

as if you know what's going on. You mentioned the

opposite sex, there. Your character, Tony,

is surrounded by three very impressive and formidable women,

the ex-wife, the daughter To what extent do you think

this is a self-critical Men don't come out

of it terribly well. And they are three wonderful

actresses playing those parts. Yes, I think, I mean,

that does seem to be That the men behave slightly more

irrationally than the women. And Charlotte Rampling

is the ex-girlfriend, who he hasn't seen for many years,

and perfect casting. I was fairly starstruck,

which is quite a good reflection So I was slightly

nervous of Charlotte... And Harriet Walter,

who plays my ex-wife, we were at college together,

and we played husband and wife more than once,

so that works as well. And then Michelle is

lovely as the daughter. Moving on, we broke up,

is the point, while we were Not long after, she formed

a relationship with my best friend and I wrote them both

a very nasty letter. As a man, you feel slightly pinned

against the wall by this film, surrounded by judgmental,

clever, tough women, looking kind of quite in a flinty

way at you the whole time. None of them have a huge amount of

respect for poor old Tony Webster. And it jumps from the present day,

right back to, I guess, So I wanted to ask you, if I may,

about your own parents. Because I have read that your father

was relatively well off but actually spent his own money to create a kind

of haven for conscientious objectors Yeah, it was, basically,

an educational commune, where they would then teach other

conscientious objectors He knew nothing about agriculture

but he did know about machines. Which leads me onto my next thing,

because there's not a lot of Quakerism or indeed pacifism

in Game Of Thrones. Now, I don't know if you're able

to say anything at all about it, but I know that you're

in the new series. Yes, I am, I'm playing an older

man, unsurprisingly. So he's got quite a bit of status,

there, but I can't really tell You're also, I think,

playing a Hatton Garden robber, that story we all remember

from the papers, about these group This was a story I think

you probably remember Yeah, when it happened, I thought,

"They'll make a film out of this, That's one of the only

times I've ever, sort of, I generally just wait for them

to come along and let them surprise me but this one did,

it actually came through. Because the phrase that is always

used about you is "character actor". What do you think

"character actor" means? Well, my parents were obviously very

interested in theatre We used to go to the Lincoln

Theatre Royal rep a lot. And I loved, particularly

loved seeing the actors who were there for a year

or so at a time, in those days, seeing them play different

characters every week. And I, I loved that whole mystery

of how they did that. And I think that's set

in my mind somewhere, that that is the aspect of acting

that I really liked, that you can change yourself

and be something utterly And because I suppose if you haven't

been known for running around with an Uzi submachine gun

and a chiselled jaw in your 20s, then your career lasts

a lot longer, or can do. As you get older, we are

all character actors! Some of the chiselled jaw ones,

even they are character actors So I got a bit of a head start

in practising the changing nature Jim Broadbent, thank you very much

indeed for talking to us. When it comes to Syria,

it's hard to avoid the impression We applaud the Americans, though

we certainly wouldn't join them, and we're in favour of talking

to the Russians, but just So how does the British Government

actually see the conflict ending? Priti Patel, as International

Development Secretary, is the politician charged

with coping with the humanitarian crisis the Syrian war has unleashed,

and she joins me now from Liverpool. Welcome, Priti Patel. Can I ask you,

first of all, were we told by the Americans not to send Boris Johnson

to Moscow? It is quite clear that events with regards to Syria have

moved on and our focus, brightly the Foreign Secretary's pokers, is on

working with the international community to look at a political

resolution, so he is focused on the G-7 meeting taking place this coming

week and working of course with the US but importantly other allies in

the international community when it comes to finding the right

kind of peaceful and political settlement to this conflict. The

problem, if I may say so, with that explanation is that we are saying

the important thing is to talk, negotiate, get back to the

negotiating table above all with the Russians and yet at this moment we

choose not to go and talk to them. It is surprising. On the contrary,

the American Secretary of State is going to Russia, but I think this is

not about just one voice, it is about the international community

coming together, and our Foreign Secretary is working with his

American counterpart, as that is the right thing to do, but important as

well that we work across the international community. This

matters, when you look at the overall issue when it comes to

Syria, this is the world's largest humanitarian crisis that we are

seeing and the world has come together, counterpart across Europe

in America, we work collectively to lead the way and provide support to

the hundreds of thousands of people that have been displaced and harmed

because of this awful, atrocious conflict. I think you have some more

money aimed at those people right now, we are spending more per head

on the Syrian crisis in a humanitarian sense than any other

country? This is the most protracted crisis we have seen in a generation,

the UK has committed ?2.46 billion to the Syrian crisis, to the people

in the region, so, yes, those inside Syria, we have seen in excess of

13.5 million people suffer the most appalling thing is that we can only

imagine, but also we have seen huge displacement into countries such as

Turkey, Georgia and Lebanon, so our resources are keeping people in the

region but importantly giving them life-saving and life changing

support, so supporting Syrian refugees to get employment, get

children into education, which is vital, but also humanitarian support

as well is crucial, in particular medical support, as we have seen

after the barbarous chemical attack that took place this week. If this

is not the whatever reason for Britain to talk to Russia, when will

be the right time? We look at this in the brand, we are speaking to all

counterparts. Just two days ago at the UN Security Council, the United

Kingdom is beating up, making its boys very clear and heard within

that content, and speaking to all partners, and we are engaging with

all partners constantly. This week I was in Brussels, the Foreign

Secretary was in Brussels, engaging with our counterparts... But not the

Russians? A la engagement is with everyone... But not the Russians.

Our Foreign Secretary is engaging with other counterparts, we need a

political solution, no doubt about that, Russia has an important role

to play as well because they have to become part of the solution and we

will all engage with them through hopefully a UN mediated process. But

this is what is bemusing, sorry to go on about it, but we keep saying

we must talk to the Russians, they are at the heart of the process, but

given an opportunity for a big summit in Russia we pull out at the

last minute, we offend the Russians, we don't get a proper explanation of

what is going on. On the contrary, nothing is bemusing when we see what

has happened this week, and, with respect, we are constantly engaging

with all our counterparts and there has been dialogue, the Foreign

Secretary has engaged his Russian counterpart previously as well, so

these discussions are continuous and that is the right approach and we

are now working, rightly so, leading the discussions with other

international counterparts... Viewers can make up their own mind

as to whether they are bemused or not. But can I ask, if there is

another chemical attack of the same kind, would we support another

strike by the Americans in the same way? We will not even speculate on

hypothetical scenarios and situations, but what we will do, and

this is why UK aid is so important, we will continue to provide

life-saving support that is required, when we see such enormous

medical emergencies, and that is why we, through DYFI, UK aid has

provided additional support to the World

Health Organization today, to provide medical support -- to DFI

deed, to prepare for all sorts of eventualities because the conditions

in Syria are more than atrocious and we have a complete duty and

obligation to make sure we are providing the support necessary to

the Syrian people living in such horrendous conditions. It is great

we provide humanitarian support, the reason we are not doing any more

goes back to the 2013 vote in the House of Commons, George Osborne

said this week events of the last few days give us a chance to reverse

what he called that terrible vote. Do you think the Government should

go back to the House of Commons for another debate and vote on Syria and

reopen the possibility of Britain becoming involved in these actions

as well? Parliament spoke in 2013. The focus right now, rightly so, has

to be on a political solution, and that means working with our

international counterparts to look at how we can bring those engaged in

this war to stop the War and get them around the negotiating table,

that has to be the first principle right now. Looking to achieve a

political settlement. We cannot look to the future and see whether or not

we are going to have another debate or go back to Parliament. I think we

all have to work, we owe it to the Syrian people who have suffered over

the last 60 years, to work together across the international

community... To choose not to go and talk to the Russians? Through all of

the forum is coming up, the G7, the G20, plenty of other forums where we

will meet our counterparts, we have to work with each other and look to

find the right solution going forward. You suggest we should not

go back to Parliament, we should accept the 2013 vote as a done deal

but this is the new parliament, new Government, new prime minister and,

sadly, a new situation in Syria. Isn't there a case for going back to

Parliament? There is a case to do the right thing right

now, which is engage with others. But let's not forget about the awful

suffering, we have seen the most barbaric attacks this week. We have

to make sure the international community, and Britain is leading

the international community when it comes to the humanitarian response,

that we stand together, stand tall and look after those people where we

can in the region but also worked incredibly hard to make sure we can

get aid supplies and medical supplies to the people that

desperately need them inside Syria. I'm not sure we made a huge amount

of advancement but thank you, Priti Patel, for joining us from

Liverpool. Within hours of the American missile

strikes being announced, Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson

applauded them as a direct and proportionate response,

while Jeremy Corbyn condemned So what does the opposition really

think about this hugely important The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily

Thornberry is with me. The morning. Which side do you fall?

Are you with Tom Watson Jeremy Corbyn? We agree we have dubbed the

war stopped as soon as possible, we look at these terrible pictures and

know only a political solution will solve this. So was the Trump strike

wrong? I think and it is the party position that the best thing for

Donald Trump to have done was to be involved with the United Nations in

ensuring we had a speedy investigation into ensuring we had

clear evidence that President Assad was responsible for the strike and

then for us to work as part of the international community to do

something about it and to act unilaterally was wrong. The problem

with waiting for the UN, as we both know is that when it comes to the

Security Council, Russia simply vetoes everything and therefore, it

can look like a recipe for complete inaction. Yes, but the point is

this, isn't it? There is no way the Russians can say it would be wrong

for them not to be an investigation. Remember, the Russians had a

completely different explanation for the chemical attack. Do you believe

them? Clearly, it is more than likely it was Asad's responsibility

but where we ought to start from is we can be sure because there are UN

investigators in Syria at the moment. And a Guardian journalist

was there more or less at the time and we got a very good report.

Absolutely, and then the question is, where does the sarin come from,

because the UN investigators have got rid of 1300 tonnes of it already

and we have to make sure the chemical weapons throughout Syria

are got rid of and we have to do that as an international community.

You can be against that? Can I ask about the principled Labour position

on this? In a parallel universe, if the UN established this was

definitely Asad's fault, would be Labour Party support strikes against

him? Not in a parallel universe, I don't agree with you. I think it is

in this universe, it is within this world... It is unlikely UN will do

it which is why I said that. We have to be part of international

agreements so if the international community felt the only way in which

this could be dealt with was by way of military action... So there are

circumstances in which Labour would support the use of military action

against President Assad? The question is, how do we bring this

war to an end? That is where we actually start from so anything we

do has to be seen through the lens of, will this bring the war to an

end faster? Will more bombs in that area bring the war to an end faster?

Will it bring the parties round the table? Or will we just, as we are

seeing at the moment, a division of the international community? Have we

not set back the negotiations as a result of what has happened in the

last couple of days? Taking that into account, you have said yourself

you are not a pacifist. I'm not. So I come again to the question, in

what circumstances would Labour support a strike against Assad?

There has to be a plan. You have had many politicians sitting in these

chairs the last few years. Have we learned nothing from Iraq and Libya?

We need to have a plan. It needs to be clear. Of course, there are many

types of intervention and military intervention is the last but it has

to be part of a plan and it has to be part of how we get a lasting

peace. In my view, at the moment, what we need is the international

community to be round the table. The fact is, Syria is not only a civil

war, it is a regional war and we have international players, and they

need to be working together to work out what it is they are going to do.

Seven years of dreadful war. And the Russians are pivotal to this. Of

course. They are, as it were, in control and I suppose the problem

with your position is what possible pressure can there be an them Warren

Sapp is military options are taken off the table? They carry on, the

situation of talking to the Russians and letting them sort this out has

gone on for years and years. Huge numbers of people have been killed

and made homeless by that. So if it carries on, what happens? There are

so many international players involved, Saudi Arabia, Turkey,

Hezbollah. They don't count compared to the Russians. I hear you and I

understand that but in the end, there has to be a form of

international agreement. I'm not saying it is easy but what I am

saying is that continuing to bomb in Syria is not the solution. Were you

disappointed when you heard Boris Johnson was not going to Moscow

after all? Is Boris Johnson thinks it is more appropriate for him to be

involved in the G7 process, that is a matter for him. But what really

matters for me is that we start talking. Obviously, that has to

include talking to the Russians. And not, you know, this continual

division. A lot of what we have heard is great rhetoric but it's not

peacemaking. It makes great headlines, what has been going on in

the last couple of days. So where would you start if you were in the

Foreign Office now? On day one, where do you start? Kick-starting

the Geneva peace process and making it serious. It has been meandering

on for years. It fell apart before. How do you kick-started? We have to

be honest with each other and start being prepared to compromise and

being prepared to talk. I mean, jaw jaw, there is no other solution. It

has killed a lot of Syrians. And so has the bombing. What is your

solution? There is no military solution to this. The only solution

is political and the question is, as the last week brought a political

solution any closer? I'm afraid it hasn't. I don't think the

government's position on this helps. Does it cause you a lot of problems

that so many of your colleagues disagree with you? Tom Watson and

Nia Griffiths, the defence spokesman, does not agree. That was

not what she said to me. So she is with you? I don't want to get into

internal gossip but I appreciate Tom has had a different position to us

and he did last time there was a vote. 17 Labour MPs have called for

a no-fly zone which would involve some kind of military involvement. A

no-fly zone has attached to it a large number of problems. Obviously,

it means that any jet that flies over the zone can get shot down.

That would include Russian jets. Are we happy to be doing that? Will it

escalate the Syrian war? Will it move us towards... So you are

against that? OK. People criticise this will be in weak position but

it's not, it is actually the strongest position. The easiest

thing to do is succumb to the pressure but actually, you have to

have your eyes on the final goal which is peace. That is difficult.

Difficult when some of your colleagues are peeling off in the

opposite direction. There's a wisp in debates in the Labour Party on

issues like this and I'm not going to worry about it. This is an

important period for all parties heading to the local elections. What

does success in the local elections look like for the Labour Party in

your view? I was here about a year ago, and we will being told them,

Labour was so divided and it was terrible and we were going to be

badly and we defied expectations, and we did that because we went into

those elections united and more importantly, because our activists

on the ground got out on the doorstep and sold the message. So

when people say, pollsters suggest you could lose more than 125

councillors, do you think this is ludicrous meeting at -- media

scaremongering and we should wait for the result? All I'm focused on

is winning as many seats as possible and ensuring we stay united as a

party because our movement, when United, can do great things.

Absolutely, when United, but mid-term, you need to win seats,

really, don't you? We need to be out there, focused entirely on winning

as many seats as we can. This week you produced one policy which got

quite a good reaction in a lot of the media on schools. Free school

dinners. For a lot of middle-class kids. Yeah. By taking money from

creative. More or less every week, Jeremy Corbyn comes to the House of

Commons and says the underfunding of English schools in particular is a

scandal and they don't have enough teachers, parents are being brought

in to teach, and we know this is true, there's a real problem in

schools at the moment. Wouldn't it be better to use the money from the

VAT to employ more teachers rather than giving children from relatively

affluent backgrounds free school meals? I'm a great believer in free

school dinners for two reasons. Firstly, because we had it in my

borough for a number of years and it's a great thing and secondly, I'm

a product of free school dinners myself. I would not be the big,

stronger I am today without them! I'm saying nothing. But the point is

this, in my borough, many people who were entitled for free school

dinners were not claiming them because of the stigma. I mean, I had

to queue up separately with different coloured tickets when I

got them. Everyone in the school does it but you sit down as each

amenity, and it is part of your education when it comes to teaching

people about healthy eating. You sit down as a community. Your argument

about why we subsidising middle-class kids to have lunch? Why

are we subsidising them to go to state schools? It is part of the

state educational experience, having lunch together. Sir Michael Wilshaw,

the former head of Ofsted said I don't see why we should subsidise

rich and prosperous parents who can well afford to pay for their

children. I would rather see any extra cash available being given to

poorer parents. As I said, I believe that education should be universal,

that all children should go state schools and part of that education

should be having a lunch and part of that is being thought about healthy

eating. If you look at poor children now, they are overweight, not thin,

because of poor eating, bad eating habits and part of your education

ought to be teaching you about how you grow a carrot and things.

Quickly, did Livingstone speak in anti-Semitic terms when he said

those things about Hitler and the... I was surprised and Frankie the

world that he was not suspended from the Labour Party as a result. Then I

was surprised he was not thrown out. I think he should have been. Emily

Thornberry, thank you. We've been talking for much

of the past hour about The Coldstream Guards are raising

awareness of combat stress in a St George's Concert

at Cadogan Hall in I'm very pleased to say that

a detachment of Coldstream Guards will be in the studio to play us out

in a moment. The Army's Principal Director

of Music, Lieutenant-Colonel Darren Good morning. We see these guys with

their magnificent uniforms in London and so forth but they are out on the

front line as well, is that right? Our musicians have the ability to go

into the forward operating bases and performed to soldiers on operations.

They have the ability to create an oasis of calm in an otherwise

extremely stressful environment and some of the comments we have had

back from the soldiers, the ability to just step away for an hour,

forget where they are, have been really good. And presumably that is

why these guys in their bearskins and so forth, are out in Afghanistan

or Iraq or it might be so combat stress is something they know about?

Yes, they do. On the home front, the concert we are putting on an Saint

George state allows us to contribute here and highlight the good work

that charities are combat stress are doing in UK. -- St George's day. A

magnificent enter the programme, played out in unusual form.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

Join us at 10am from Cambridge where we will be debating the ethics of

trading with countries that abuse human rights, and gender neutral

language. Using it and they, or he and she. Would this be better for

humanity? And last, the true meaning of Easter, eggs at the ready, take

aim and throw! See you at 10am on BBC One.

We're off air next week for Easter but we'll

be back on 23 April, St George's Day, when I'll be

talking to an English music icon about his love of America.

That's an exclusive with Sir Ray Davies.

Until then, we leave you now with the Coldstream Guards.

This is the Fanfare from La Peri by Paul Dukas.

MUSIC: La Peri - Fanfare by Paul Dukas.